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Thread: Goal of Zero Attrition

  1. #1
    Tipton's Avatar
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    Goal of Zero Attrition

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    Of the many notable things that first struck me about SGUL-Nicosia when I was first invited to interview was its apparent goal of zero attrition. This becomes particularly stricking in comparison with my former employer and other international medical schools.

    SGUL-Nicosia had one of the best regional hospitals (Sheba Medical Center / University of Tel Aviv) on-board with us prior to enrolling a single student Fall 2011.

    Our minimum admissions requirements rival and surpass 90%+ of international schools recruiting US students (including the top X schools in the Caribbean).

    Instead of lecture halls with 300+ students, SGUL-Nicocia has PBL sessions with 8 students and 1 professor.

    Zero attrition. It is possible.
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    rokshana is offline Member Guru 11644 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    Of the many notable things that first struck me about SGUL-Nicosia when I was first invited to interview was its apparent goal of zero attrition. This becomes particularly stricking in comparison with my former employer and other international medical schools.

    SGUL-Nicosia had one of the best regional hospitals (Sheba Medical Center / University of Tel Aviv) on-board with us prior to enrolling a single student Fall 2011.

    Our minimum admissions requirements rival and surpass 90%+ of international schools recruiting US students (including the top X schools in the Caribbean).

    Instead of lecture halls with 300+ students, SGUL-Nicocia has PBL sessions with 8 students and 1 professor.

    Zero attrition. It is possible.
    that is nice advertising, but really 100% match rate (or even 100% residency placement, which come 2013 is one in the same) is the goal...and correct me if i'm wrong, but you don't have a graduating class yet so how can you say you have a 0% attrition rate when you don't' have a student that has graduated?
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    Rokshana, I think he's referring to attrition rate in their basic sciences program. Caribbean schools are in the 50%+ range because they bleed all the $$ they can from students (this is especially true of schools like AUA where Tipton used to work) and then weed them out when convenient. If this school's goal is 0% attrition, that would mean they'd have to give 2nd and 3rd chances to people that fail courses and/or their boards. 0% attrition may look great for PR purposes but would be a disaster for the school.
    Last edited by NWS; 05-14-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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    I think 0% attrition (while maintaining high institutional standards), and a 100% residency match rate (in the country where each student wants to practice) should be the goals... and the two go hand-in-hand.

    If a school wants 0% attrition, then they need to practice due diligence on the front end. Part of the reason that the washout rate in the US is so low is because the admissions criteria are pretty bloody high. If a school makes sure that they are getting solid students to begin with -- through admission tests, yeah, but also through real interviews and gaining a feel for the aptitude of the applicants -- and then places them in a positive learning environment like what Tipton seems to be describing, then the results that will follow will probably be pretty damn impressive.

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    Actually the goal of zero attrition means:

    1) high admissions standards and

    2) high levels of student support based on 270+ years of teaching medicine

    leading to students who can handle the material and have the resources they need on hand along the way.

    Goals of course are different from results. As Rokshana mentioned SGUL-Nicosia has no alumni yet. However SGUL has many illustrious alumni including Dr. H. Gray of Gray's Anatomy (in case you didn't know already). And since SGUL-Nicosia are receiving the same teaching, same curriculum, standards and degree I expect our future alumni will have a distinct advantage to the run-of-the-mill USIMG.

    I didn't begin this thread to discuss what-ifs however but to discuss the specific differences between a medical school where 8 students will sit in a classroom with a professor versus a medical school, for example, that either admits 300-400 students per incoming term (with up to 3 terms per year) or has recently built a 500+ seat teaching auditorium for its students.

    It's the difference between a GOAL of no attrition (making sure your students are first qualified for admission into medical school and second have the resources they need to succeed in medical school) and having a business model that fails WITHOUT attrition (throw a dartboard at the Caribbean and you'll hit a school).
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    thxleave is offline Elite Member 7201 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    Actually the goal of zero attrition means:

    1) high admissions standards and

    2) high levels of student support based on 270+ years of teaching medicine

    leading to students who can handle the material and have the resources they need on hand along the way.

    Goals of course are different from results. As Rokshana mentioned SGUL-Nicosia has no alumni yet. However SGUL has many illustrious alumni including Dr. H. Gray of Gray's Anatomy (in case you didn't know already). And since SGUL-Nicosia are receiving the same teaching, same curriculum, standards and degree I expect our future alumni will have a distinct advantage to the run-of-the-mill USIMG.

    I didn't begin this thread to discuss what-ifs however but to discuss the specific differences between a medical school where 8 students will sit in a classroom with a professor versus a medical school, for example, that either admits 300-400 students per incoming term (with up to 3 terms per year) or has recently built a 500+ seat teaching auditorium for its students.

    It's the difference between a GOAL of no attrition (making sure your students are first qualified for admission into medical school and second have the resources they need to succeed in medical school) and having a business model that fails WITHOUT attrition (throw a dartboard at the Caribbean and you'll hit a school).
    It's great that you are sharing vital information to prospective students on ValueMD. Though it's a bit disingenuous to lump "top" Caribbean medical schools together and make broad complaints.

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    Considering two of the "top" schools in the Caribbean are now literally lumped together under the same, publically-traded coporation, I find nothing wrong with my conclusions. Not sure exactly what you mean by "complaints" though.

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    rokshana is offline Member Guru 11644 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    Actually the goal of zero attrition means:

    1) high admissions standards and

    2) high levels of student support based on 270+ years of teaching medicine

    leading to students who can handle the material and have the resources they need on hand along the way.

    Goals of course are different from results. As Rokshana mentioned SGUL-Nicosia has no alumni yet. However SGUL has many illustrious alumni including Dr. H. Gray of Gray's Anatomy (in case you didn't know already). And since SGUL-Nicosia are receiving the same teaching, same curriculum, standards and degree I expect our future alumni will have a distinct advantage to the run-of-the-mill USIMG.

    I didn't begin this thread to discuss what-ifs however but to discuss the specific differences between a medical school where 8 students will sit in a classroom with a professor versus a medical school, for example, that either admits 300-400 students per incoming term (with up to 3 terms per year) or has recently built a 500+ seat teaching auditorium for its students.

    It's the difference between a GOAL of no attrition (making sure your students are first qualified for admission into medical school and second have the resources they need to succeed in medical school) and having a business model that fails WITHOUT attrition (throw a dartboard at the Caribbean and you'll hit a school).

    sorry thats like the cornell in qatar claiming to be the same as cornell in NYC...they may share a name but they are NOT the same...and Weil cornell students from qatar are STILL FMGs...its great and all that you have the connection with the original school, but don't try to perpetuate the image that going to the school in cyprus is the same as going to the school in england...it not and to make people think its is...well... a bit shady.

    and its easy to have a low attrition rate if you take 8 students who all have high scores and will succeed no matter where you put them (to paraphrase stephew...you can put a harvard student in a closet with books and they will all do well...) have 500 students and have 10-15% attrition rate is not shabby even if its not zero (zero anything is usually an unrealistic goal be it attrition rate or say tolerance).
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    thxleave is offline Elite Member 7201 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    Considering two of the "top" schools in the Caribbean are now literally lumped together under the same, publically-traded coporation, I find nothing wrong with my conclusions. Not sure exactly what you mean by "complaints" though.
    Not necessary complaints, but the tonal implication of your words would imply a negative way of thinking. It'll be fine if you want to advertise SGUL-Nicosia, but to compare it to a broad spectrum of "Caribbean" medical schools draws mire.

    Ex: SGUL-Nicoasia overs small class sizes of 8 students and 1 professor........
    Ex: SGUL-Nicoasia overs smal class sizes of 8 students and 1 professor compared to Caribbean medical schools that have class sizes as large as 500+.

    If you are trying to advertise the small class sizes then fine; if you are trying to say that the small class sizes give SGUL-Nicoasia an advantage to the "top" Caribbean medical school. It really boils down to the meaning of your post.

    Also even though some of the schools are owned by the same corporation the quality really varies. It isn't exactly cookie cutter.

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    Tipton's Avatar
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    I'm glad you brought up the comparison with Cornell, because all SGUL students whether they study in London or Cyprus are IMGs in the US. Since our campus in Cyprus falls under the same regulatory body as the London campus, the same accreditation applies. Cornell's campus in Qatar could never meet LCME standards however much Cornell wanted it to be the case.

    Another far departure from the original subject of how medical schools take care of their students and ensure their students' success rather than the success of their bottom line(s).

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