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  1. #1
    Zoidberg is offline Newbie
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    found some hairy numbers on the Ross pamphlet....

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    They state that they have graduated over 4000 MDs since 1978, but they also state that the average class size has grown to 2200. Now, unless I'm missing something...that leads me to believe somewhere between 70 to 90 percent of this "class" is not going to graduate. They also mention a 97% USMLE pass rate. Regardless, that's a wicked attrition rate....can anybody help me understand these numbers. It just sounds really unusual for one of the Big Three.

    BTW, great community here. I've been lurking for the last couple of weeks and I decided to finally sign up.

  2. #2
    jim
    jim is offline Elite Member
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    use common sense

    as you noticed, the number dont make sense. obviously, there is a reason for that. the class sizes at Ross only grew lately. and the number of 2200 seems way off. more like about 800 a year now. but for many years, it was 12 or 15 per class. my graduating class was a little over 500 in '03. the first really large class. and since then, they have grown even bigger.

  3. #3
    teratos's Avatar
    teratos is offline Jedi Moderator 658 points
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    No

    You quote a number of 2200 for grads, I think that must be 220?? These schools are "second chance" schools. There is a wicked high attrition rate. What people do with their second chance is up to them. I went to AUC, but the student body is of similar make-up. The people who failed out were the people who went out all the time and enjoyed the island life. That is a general statement, and I'm sure there are exceptions. I think 97% pass rate on the USMLE is high. Not many US schools can claim that. G
    AUC Class of '99
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  4. #4
    Zoidberg is offline Newbie
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    Ross

    thanks Jim, I figured that was it but I wasn't sure how recently the class size has grown.

    If you remember off the top of your head, I was wondering what you noticed in terms of general attrition at Ross. I've heard it can be more competitive than the other two. Thanks,

    Patrick.
    (undergrad class '06)

  5. #5
    teratos's Avatar
    teratos is offline Jedi Moderator 658 points
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    Re: Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoidberg
    If you remember off the top of your head, I was wondering what you noticed in terms of general attrition at Ross. I've heard it can be more competitive than the other two. Thanks,

    Patrick.
    (undergrad class '06)
    I don't think it is more competative. I would venture to guess that SGU has the lowest attrition rate. That doesn't mean they are less competative than the others, it speaks to the admission standards they hold people to. People with high GPAs and high MCATs are more likely to do well. Just a statistical fact. I would venture to guess that AUC and Ross have similar attrition rates. What determines attrition? I would say personal behavior and study habits. People admitted with lower GPAs tend to have poorer study habits and have had more "fun" in undergrad. They will do the same in med school. Because med school has less of a margin of error, they won't be able to squeak by.

    When I went to AUC, there were a lot of people who cheated. There were old tests folating around. They didn't study. Some of them did real well in classes, but couldn't pass the boards. Kind of a dumb thing. They didn't see the big picture. I think that if you with a good work ethic, you will succeed. G
    AUC Class of '99
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  6. #6
    jim
    jim is offline Elite Member
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    attrition

    roughly, we started with 296 in my semester. sept of 99. we had 2 who refused to leave the plane at Marigot. we were down to about 245 by mini 1. by 1st semester finals, we were 212. of that number, eventually, about 155 graduated. we also had a dozen and a half who transfered. after 1st semester, most attrition is by failing or medical leaves. prior to mini 1 of 1st semester, its people who hated the island. so technically, by all numbers, we had a total of about 57% graduate at the epected time, (including those who graduted form a US school). 17% left prior to first exam, and a total of almost 30% left prior to 1st semester finals. 1st semester was worst attrition for fail, with 22, while 2nd we only had 1 form our original class fail, as well as 2 who had dropped back from other classes. (2nd semester back then was biochem, physio, nuero). as George said, the failures tend to be those who dont have the work ethic, or just arent smart enough. soemtimes you see those with poor backgorund(art majors, or such things, with minimal science background).

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    wolfvgang22 is offline Moderator 514 points
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    Re: attrition

    Quote Originally Posted by jim
    the failures tend to be those who dont have the work ethic, or just arent smart enough. soemtimes you see those with poor backgorund(art majors, or such things, with minimal science background).
    Well, they say medicine is an ART...
    Saba University School of Medicine, Class of 2009
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  8. #8
    2ndyear is offline Member
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    Scary numbers

    Zoidberg- the 97% USMLE 1 pass rate you read is the number of students who pass within 3 attempts. Not once. RUSM is not foolish enough to post such high a number. Do not get fixated on the numbers game of how many pass or fail. Nobody tries to fail you on purpose at RUSM. Lots of people do make it with helluva hard work. This is a challenging curriculum. And it should be.........Good luck.

  9. #9
    Zoidberg is offline Newbie
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    Ross

    thanks for the replies everyone, that was exactly what I was looking for. I appreciate that the lower admisssions standards means its less of a front loaded selection process and therefore, it requires a different kind of soul-searching. It definately provides an opportunity that wouldn't exist due to US schools being so focused on high graduation rates.

    Jim, just the numbers I was looking for, thank you. Do you know what the problem was for the two that refused to get off the plane? I imagine also that there are students there who just absolutely lack the maturity or stability to get through the material.

    Terratos, thanks for the info, AUC is looking really good too. I have a close friend who is absolutely set on AUC, it would allow her to enter an MD program a year early and keep her "close" to SoCal. I would rather see a large number of cheaters who fail outside of the classroom, than a general 50-50 split, if that makes any sense. I'm really just trying to understand what causes so many people to flunk out after such huge investments of time and money (for most people).

    Thanks 2ndyear...that makes a lot more sense.

  10. #10
    frankmd is offline Newbie
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    A high attrition rate should really not scare anyone. In fact it stands as the single standing fact that the school is not selling diplomas. Although the school does make money in offering that one (or in some instances like Ross as many as your willing to take)semester of "a second chance".

    Now, medical schools in France for instance have a open addmission policy but in the end not every one gets out -rendering them excepttionally high attrition rate. I don't think there is really anything wrong with that especially when you don't pay as much for that chance as some people do in the caribbean. In fact that same policy was proposed in the US for some time and in fact there are several programs across the states that try to incorperate that in some very limited way. But the truth is that if schools in the states were to offer that weeding process to the masses almost 50% of all the colleges would empty out into the first year medical school classes. It definitely has monetary incentives. But the US is also about putting out quality from its institutions with particular types of characters. They look for excptional articulations and uniqueness and so on... (their are people I know that graduated in my class with 96 and 98 on their USMLEs but couldn't spell or write a proper sentence for their life) In fact in the US many times you can even tell where certain students are from by the way they are. Thats what most of their interveiw process is all about.

    When you have a comperatively lenient addmissions which equates to perry much an open addmission -You most certainly will see people there (regardless of much you charge them) for the wrong reasons (..like because of their parents..or just something to do..) and you most certainlywill want to see a high attrition rate. If not then there is something wrong. Some will reallize that there food is too cold or there bed is too hard and decide to leave first month...others will realize by the end of first semester that screen writing is really what they want to do with their life and not studying biochem till 3am ....

    ..others realize that despite how hard hey tried they just cant keep up, some stick it out and transfer to a place that will allow them to just advance on so they can later make it up by sitting a year in Kaplan, some go home and just tell their family I tried but ..., and some will stick it out fall behind and eventually make it....now AUC will allow one to fail only 18 credits (about 4 classes) before they dismiss you. Ross will more or less let you repeat as much you have to.

    In the end...alot of people make it out, even those who no one would have ever thought of and no US school would have even offered the time of day to. And some will drop out and just decide that no life is beautiful and that yes ...not becoming doctor is not a terminal disease... and that they rather spend this one life another way.

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