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Thread: Dismissed from big 4, what to do next + residency

  1. #1
    Andrew1234 is offline Newbie 510 points
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    Dismissed from big 4, what to do next + residency

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    Hi y'all,
    So I was academically dismissed from one of the big 4 in the Caribbean (failed max classes). I had a few questions as to what I should do next.

    I was considering applying to another caribbean school and transferring my credits--however I was wondering how this would affect my residency chances having the academic dismissal on my record.

    Another option I was considering was retaking the MCAT and do an SMP starting this fall, and applying for DO for the fall of 2014--but not sure if I should tell or not tell DO schools about my history in the caribbean. Any thoughts on this? If I do tell them, will they automatically reject me?

    A third option I was thinking about was applying for PA school or Podiatry school as last option as I am not getting any younger and don't want to lose too much more time if none of the above options are worth pursuing. Any thoughts on this as well?

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    kerpal is offline Junior Member 518 points
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    By 2015-2016 even superstar IMG students will have a hard (if not impossible) time matching.

    Transferring to a different Caribbean school will all-but-guarantee you not matching.

    4-5 years ago, this would have been a viable (albeit in-advised and risky) alternative, but not anymore. It's suicide.

    If you are young and just made a bunch of immature mistakes, then by all means go back to the US and re-take the MCAT/sign up for a masters program, and attempt to enter a US program. Obviously you'll have to be forthcoming with your Caribbean failure. Don't be an integrity violator.

    If you just couldn't hack it, mentally, then consider a different career. The Caribbean is pretty easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew1234 View Post
    Hi y'all,
    So I was academically dismissed from one of the big 4 in the Caribbean (failed max classes). I had a few questions as to what I should do next.

    I was considering applying to another caribbean school and transferring my credits--however I was wondering how this would affect my residency chances having the academic dismissal on my record.

    Another option I was considering was retaking the MCAT and do an SMP starting this fall, and applying for DO for the fall of 2014--but not sure if I should tell or not tell DO schools about my history in the caribbean. Any thoughts on this? If I do tell them, will they automatically reject me?

    A third option I was thinking about was applying for PA school or Podiatry school as last option as I am not getting any younger and don't want to lose too much more time if none of the above options are worth pursuing. Any thoughts on this as well?
    For the most part agree with Kerpal above and want to add on that you should disclose because licensing applications and ERAS ask if you have completed any other coursework so even if you lie to DO schools there is a strong chance it could show up. Having an integrity violation will almost surely prevent or at least delay licensing.

    I disagree with saying the Caribbean is easy. Yes some are easier than others but the Big 4 are pretty standard in their difficulty and not just anyone makes it to clinicals or even Step 1. There is a chance a less rigorous less in depth course load such as PA could be accomplished. If you are ok being a PA do that. Less loans, less responsibility, can work in any specialty including surgery, no residency.
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    Why not? It all boils down to how well you do on your STEP. But you have to score well to overcome your shortcoming.

    Doing an SMP is a gamble. Why not do a PhD instead and most of your classes will probably transfer?

    PA school is a viable option, but most, if not all, do not transfer credits.
    Last edited by t-rex; 05-15-2013 at 05:43 PM.

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    SouthPacific is offline Junior Member 511 points
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    Hi Andrew1234,

    You also have options for M.D. programs in Eastern Europe. Some of the schools (in Poland) have arrangements to do clinicals in the US AND they have federal loans.
    I was told when I was dismissed myself from one of the Big 4 that some people may it work at AUA. Funding is an issue, however, unless one doesn't need loans.

    I'm curious what particular Caribbean program is 'pretty easy' as per kerpal? I carried a 3.9 in undergrad and a 3.85 in grad school through a Ph.D. program AND studied relentlessly in the Caribbean - still failed. I did not find any of it difficult to understand to be honest, but I had a difficult time retaining that much information in the allocated time. Also, having only the minimum in terms of prerequisites is a big disadvantage. There is that much more one needs to learn to catch up. Most people there had already taken anatomy, histo, genetics, biochemistry, etc. in their undergraduate studies. Interestingly, all of them claimed that anatomy didn't help at all b/c the material is so much more detailed in med school. I wonder what they would have thought if they have never seen anatomy before...

    Anyway, you probably need to ask yourself what is more important to you: working as an M.D. or working in a specific country.
    Best of luck. You can certainly make your own way and learning to brush off other people's inflated egos is part of the process.

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    shora2010 is offline Junior Member 515 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerpal View Post
    By 2015-2016 even superstar IMG students will have a hard (if not impossible) time matching.

    Transferring to a different Caribbean school will all-but-guarantee you not matching.

    4-5 years ago, this would have been a viable (albeit in-advised and risky) alternative, but not anymore. It's suicide.

    If you are young and just made a bunch of immature mistakes, then by all means go back to the US and re-take the MCAT/sign up for a masters program, and attempt to enter a US program. Obviously you'll have to be forthcoming with your Caribbean failure. Don't be an integrity violator.

    If you just couldn't hack it, mentally, then consider a different career. The Caribbean is pretty easy.
    very far fetched statement. How many caribbean schools have you failed out of?

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    rokshana is offline Member Guru 11644 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by shora2010 View Post
    very far fetched statement. How many caribbean schools have you failed out of?
    not so far fetched...are YOU even involved in the medical field?

    by 2015-2016 the ratio of US seniors and 1st yr residency spots are on track to be 1:1..this from the chair of the ACGME and the head of the AAMC...and while there will always a % of AMGs that do not match for whatever reason and there will always be some I/FMGs that will match, this 1:1 ration will leave very few spots available for independent applicants...also the increase in DO grads push on us as well...even NOW, the best and the brightest I/FMGs are are having trouble...the number of interviews one gets are lower now than even just 3-4 yrs ago and its only going to get worse if the 1:1 ration is realized.

    transferring to a US school from the caribbean helps, but moving around the caribbean school to school, is a HUGE red flag, and yes...it is going to greatly hinder ones chances in matching...a chance that already is low...and yea, a few yrs ago, it may have been possible, but now?

    and if the reason a person failed is because they were immature and didn't give it their all, then maybe they should try again...but if they gave it there all, then yes, maybe medicine isnt the field that they should be in...its not for everyone...even if they have a passion for it..
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    bmore is offline Junior Member 535 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by rokshana View Post
    not so far fetched...are YOU even involved in the medical field?

    by 2015-2016 the ratio of US seniors and 1st yr residency spots are on track to be 1:1..this from the chair of the ACGME and the head of the AAMC...and while there will always a % of AMGs that do not match for whatever reason and there will always be some I/FMGs that will match, this 1:1 ration will leave very few spots available for independent applicants...also the increase in DO grads push on us as well...even NOW, the best and the brightest I/FMGs are are having trouble...the number of interviews one gets are lower now than even just 3-4 yrs ago and its only going to get worse if the 1:1 ration is realized.

    transferring to a US school from the caribbean helps, but moving around the caribbean school to school, is a HUGE red flag, and yes...it is going to greatly hinder ones chances in matching...a chance that already is low...and yea, a few yrs ago, it may have been possible, but now?

    and if the reason a person failed is because they were immature and didn't give it their all, then maybe they should try again...but if they gave it there all, then yes, maybe medicine isnt the field that they should be in...its not for everyone...even if they have a passion for it..
    If you actually look at the numbers, this doom and gloom about the 2015-16 match is just simply not true. I'm not hearing this from people, you can actually look up the number of first year US MD students for 2011 and 2012. It is WAY less than the number of residency spots available. Also look at the 2013 match statistics, the number of residency spots went way up (+1000 in IM alone) and more US IMGs matched than ever before.

    "And even now the best and brightest IMGs are having trouble" is also not true. Ross had >700 people match this year, and SGU and AUC also had lots of people match.
    Last edited by bmore; 05-22-2013 at 03:12 PM.

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    rokshana is offline Member Guru 11644 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmore View Post
    If you actually look at the numbers, this doom and gloom about the 2015-16 match is just simply not true. I'm not hearing this from people, you can actually look up the number of first year US MD students for 2011 and 2012. It is WAY less than the number of residency spots available. Also look at the 2013 match statistics, the number of residency spots went way up (+1000 in IM alone) and more US IMGs matched than ever before.

    "And even now the best and brightest IMGs are having trouble" is also not true. Ross had >700 people match this year, and SGU and AUC also had lots of people match.

    please...tell me where in your medical career you are? i hazard to guess its in the application stage or 1st term at best...

    do you know WHY the number of residency spots went "up"? its because this year is the 1st year of "all in"...no pre matches...those "new" residency spots aren't new at all...they are the spots that previously were prematched prior to the nrmp match...

    the key to your "700" matched and sgu and auc had "lots"....is how MANY are graduating? 700 from ross...well YAY!...but guess what? its not...no, i don't know what the exact number, but i would bet good money...its not 700 (prolly more like 1000-1200).

    how about you DO hear from people...ask those who were in the match this year...those who did the SOAP...those who are prepping for interview season coming up....get a real feel for the difficulties from real people...
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    devildoc8404 is offline Ultimate Member 12699 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmore View Post
    If you actually look at the numbers, this doom and gloom about the 2015-16 match is just simply not true.
    Righty-oh. The ACGME and AAMC have no idea whatsoever about these kinds of things, do they?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmore View Post
    I'm not hearing this from people, you can actually look up the number of first year US MD students for 2011 and 2012. It is WAY less than the number of residency spots available. Also look at the 2013 match statistics, the number of residency spots went way up (+1000 in IM alone) and more US IMGs matched than ever before.
    See rokshana´s concise explanation of this above. If you are going to toss around numbers, it is good to at least know what they represent. The first year after the match goes "all-in" is obviously going to yield a pantload more matches, because most of the pre-matches from previous years were forced into the match! That is some rather important data to include in the analysis of the most recently-completed match process, isn´t it?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmore View Post
    "And even now the best and brightest IMGs are having trouble" is also not true. Ross had >700 people match this year, and SGU and AUC also had lots of people match.
    Look at the total numbers of people (including those who did NOT match) before you start feeling too comfy-cozy in your seat. Just a clue... it is a rare bird indeed who does not match and then shows up on VMD to talk about it. It happens, but not nearly as frequently as people touting their triumphs. That is human nature.

    You would be well served to pay close attention to this process, and I mean at the macro level, because this game is changing. The things that happened three to five years ago are not expected to continue in perpetuity, according to the AAMC and ACGME... who are the very people in charge of medical education and residency training in the United States.

    Look, I am not here to tell you that you will not match. Maybe you will, and maybe you won´t... I hope that you do. Rather, I am telling you that the situation is in major flux, and if you want to match, it would be one hell of a good idea to make careful note of it.

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