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Thread: Naturopathic Doctors as Primary Care Physicians

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    NUHS-AUC is offline Permanently Banned 535 points
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    Naturopathic Doctors as Primary Care Physicians

    Seems that NDs are progressing forward with scope expansion, and whole health approach, similar to what happened to DOs back in the 70s...Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges - Naturopathic Physicians Are Primary Care Providers
    RRT2HOLISTICDOC likes this.

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    benevolo is offline Member 520 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUHS-AUC View Post
    Agreed, thank you and point taken,

    That ND actually BROKE the LAW, she practiced in an unlicensed state/province, AND delivered an IV procedure, to a high risk patient, in an outpatient setting. No idea why or what she was thinking at the time, but, we can't judge an entire profession based on one's error and omission.

    She was surely at fault, and that incident could have been prevented, really sad indeed !

    There are malpractice and liability issues in any healthcare profession !
    All I can say is look in any yellow pages and look at what naturopathic doctors are doing. Compare that to MDs and you won't find the same kinds of shady businesses going on. Well, I don't necessarily want to call it shady, I'm sure most of these NDs actually think they're helping their patients out.

    I can't comment any further on the other naturopath case because it's something I saw which may be going to litigation. Needless to say this was a licensed naturopath who demonstrated such a lack of knowledge on so many levels, that I can't imagine how far from medical science their education must be.

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    NDs scope and licensure

    Again, yellow pages are not what I call a reliable source of information, any quack can open a "clinic" especially in a non licensed state, hence why NDs need to be licensed and governed by strict laws and policies, require them to obtain CE, and to protect the public.

    I can state that after graduating as a DC from NUHS, my basic and clinical science education was pretty good, I can just talk from my own personal experience graduating from one of the top Integrative Universities in the nation.
    Here is what the NDs at NUHS are learning, from basic sciences to clinical sciences, to internship.
    Naturopathic Medicine |*National University of Health Sciences

    I still go and see my ND, for functional lab tests, that my family physician doesn't even consider, nor has the time to review, these functional med tests, are not just ND domain, many integrative MDs are starting to utilize them, and there is plenty of good science to support what NDs are doing.

    Here is a clip:
    How Is Functional Medicine Different than Conventional Medicine? - YouTube

    As a surgeon, I would hate to see the public generalize "Surgery" as bad or non effective, if one surgeon messes up, same applies to Naturopathic Medicine.

    Sincerely,



    Quote Originally Posted by benevolo View Post
    All I can say is look in any yellow pages and look at what naturopathic doctors are doing. Compare that to MDs and you won't find the same kinds of shady businesses going on. Well, I don't necessarily want to call it shady, I'm sure most of these NDs actually think they're helping their patients out.

    I can't comment any further on the other naturopath case because it's something I saw which may be going to litigation. Needless to say this was a licensed naturopath who demonstrated such a lack of knowledge on so many levels, that I can't imagine how far from medical science their education must be.
    Last edited by NUHS-AUC; 05-26-2012 at 12:41 PM.

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    benevolo is offline Member 520 points
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    It's not just one naturopath though...it's what seems like the vast majority of them. And this is in a licensed province. I've never, ever seen an ad for a naturopath or a website for someone's clinic that didn't list 100s of shady practices. That's the funny part - finding an NP who doesn't do shady things is finding the exception to the rule, not the other way around. I've still yet to find a link to a naturopath website wehre they didn't do things like detox, offer special vitamin injections, special tests that are frivolous (only to find 'diagnoses' which require more treatment and more of their high priced products).

    If you can even find me one single naturopath ad/website that doesn't do this, that would be interesting to see.

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    Why NDs should be licensed and regulated

    Look, NDs are still under CAM, they aren't mainstream, my point is, patients considering CAM should at least pursue regulated professionals like NDs, instead the local "basement operation Sham-woo", when NDs are regulated, and licensed, they must carry Malpractice insurance, and adhere to regulations and standards, should anything happen, at least the patient and family are protected, can obtain $$$, etc.. and the provider license might be in jeopardy.
    In unlicensed states or province, incidents such as the one you mentioned may happen, and look, they now have to sue her personally, there are many diploma mill NDs, that can't even get licensed in licensed state, since the law in these state mandate a 4 year Naturopathic medical school degree, NPLEX board certification and ongoing CE courses, similar to other professions. (Medicine, Chiropractic, Dentistry etc...)

    Regardless,
    There are plenty website of credible NDs:
    Naturopathic Medicine at Cancer Treatment Centers of America (CTCA)SaluGenecists, Inc.
    About Dr. Murray | Doctor Murray
    Welcome to Lise Alschuler, ND
    About Naturopathic Doctors, Integrative Medicine, UW Health, University of Wisconsin Hospital, Madison , UW Health, University of Wisconsin Hospital, Madison

    The latter are just few that I googled
    Many Hospitals and Integrative medical centers across north america are now utilizing Licensed NDs.





    Quote Originally Posted by benevolo View Post
    It's not just one naturopath though...it's what seems like the vast majority of them. And this is in a licensed province. I've never, ever seen an ad for a naturopath or a website for someone's clinic that didn't list 100s of shady practices. That's the funny part - finding an NP who doesn't do shady things is finding the exception to the rule, not the other way around. I've still yet to find a link to a naturopath website wehre they didn't do things like detox, offer special vitamin injections, special tests that are frivolous (only to find 'diagnoses' which require more treatment and more of their high priced products).

    If you can even find me one single naturopath ad/website that doesn't do this, that would be interesting to see.
    Last edited by NUHS-AUC; 05-26-2012 at 04:21 PM.

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    Thanks for the links! The recommendations on Dr. Murray's site are still a bit silly, but at least they could *potentially* work on some physiologic/biochemical level. He basically just recommends eating healthier and taking more vitamins and supplements for every medical condition, which certainly won't hurt but won't necessarily work either. At least he isn't recommending detox and things that have no physiologic basis, you know what I mean?

    Of course all of his recommendations happen to be products he sells on his website, so a bit of a conflict of interest, but what're you gonna do?

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    oops...double post..

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    NDs have alot to overcome when it comes to scientific basis for what they believe. In AZ they do alot of chelation which is scary to me. If they truly want to become primary care providers they need to clean up their industry and weed out the bad actors and unproven methods such as homeopathy from their trade.
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    Patients do come first

    I agree, but that's with every industry, not just NDs,
    I know more MDs than NDs that practice Homeopathy, and/or Chelation therapy,

    Majority of ACAM are MDs and DOsCertified Chelation Therapy (CCT) - American College for Advancement in Medicine
    Again, I personally would NOT recommend it to patients, without the review of a vascular surgeon, AND a nephrologist (kidney specialist) however, many MDs that I talked to, swear by chelation, so, this is ultimately a "patient choice" and we have to educate the patient for any possible risks, benefits and alternatives, to treatments.

    The "Lack of" scientific studies, doesn't mean the treatment or therapy isn't a good modality, please be aware that much of what we consider today to be "clinical studies" are much skewed cohorts from big pharma. ($$$ talks)

    with regards to homeopathy, as far as I know Homeopathy is a form of energy medicine, as long as there is no harm to the patient and they (MD/ND/DO) integrate it with conventional mainstream approach when indicated, I'm fine with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by azskeptic View Post
    NDs have alot to overcome when it comes to scientific basis for what they believe. In AZ they do alot of chelation which is scary to me. If they truly want to become primary care providers they need to clean up their industry and weed out the bad actors and unproven methods such as homeopathy from their trade.
    Last edited by NUHS-AUC; 05-31-2012 at 11:42 AM.

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    MDs/DOs are not immune from losing their place on the path to good medicine. The medical boards are full of cases of people who well intentioned are lost,lost,lost. I went and sat through a lot of board meetings years ago. I can never forget one doctor I saw who had to be reminded that he had to face the other way in front of the lectern he was at: he was giving cortisone shots for just about every malady he faced. Patients need not face stuff like that because many are uninformed of what is real in medicine.


    Quote Originally Posted by NUHS-AUC View Post
    I agree, but that's with every industry, not just NDs,
    I know more MDs than NDs that practice Homeopathy, and/or Chelation therapy,

    Majority of ACAM are MDs and DOsCertified Chelation Therapy (CCT) - American College for Advancement in Medicine
    Again, I personally would NOT recommend it to patients, without the review of a vascular surgeon, AND a nephrologist (kidney specialist) however, many MDs that I talked to, swear by chelation, so, this is ultimately a "patient choice" and we have to educate the patient for any possible risks, benefits and alternatives, to treatments.

    The "Lack of" scientific studies, doesn't mean the treatment or therapy isn't a good modality, please be aware that much of what we consider today to be "clinical studies" are much skewed cohorts from big pharma. ($$$ talks)

    with regards to homeopathy, as far as I know Homeopathy is a form of energy medicine, as long as there is no harm to the patient and they (MD/ND/DO) integrate it with conventional mainstream approach when indicated, I'm fine with it.
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    MD/DO practicing CAM

    Yes, thank you for your post AZSKEPTIC, I agree with you, and that's why we have licensing boards and discipline committees,
    if the MD/DO is "lost", then in order to protect the public their license should be revoked, or mandatory CE should be enforced.
    UNLESS they practice forms of CAM that is considered SAFE to the public and is practiced in good conscience, and ethical....some CAM like Acupuncture, Homeopathy, Mind Body Medicine, may not be scientific (objectively measured), nor ethical in many cases (giving placebos) however, many patients do seem to respond to it empirically speaking, and request it.

    I prefer having regulated professionals (ideally MD/DO with conventional knowledge/background) practice those sorts of CAM modalities, than NON regulated, at least if the CAM provider harm the patient they have a license to worry about, and a malpractice case, which may protect the patient.

    Giving Cortisone shots to every patient, is HARMFUL, UNETHICAL, and a case of MALPRACTICE, I rather see MD/ND/DO give homeopathy (placebo) than inject patients with cortisone when there is absolutely no indication for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by azskeptic View Post
    MDs/DOs are not immune from losing their place on the path to good medicine. The medical boards are full of cases of people who well intentioned are lost,lost,lost. I went and sat through a lot of board meetings years ago. I can never forget one doctor I saw who had to be reminded that he had to face the other way in front of the lectern he was at: he was giving cortisone shots for just about every malady he faced. Patients need not face stuff like that because many are uninformed of what is real in medicine.

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