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Thread: Salaries

  1. #1
    PotentialPremed is offline Newbie 510 points
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    Salaries

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    I heard that ND's can make as much as MD's. Is this true? Also, are Naturopathic Medicine programs easier to get into than traditional med school?

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    dt
    dt is offline Elite Member 510 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotentialPremed View Post
    I heard that ND's can make as much as MD's. Is this true? Also, are Naturopathic Medicine programs easier to get into than traditional med school?

    For a salary survey, take a look at: http://www.ncnm.edu/alumniandfriends...umniSurvey.pdf

    and yes, naturopathic medicine programs are easier to get in than MD. Go here for a list of schools: Council on Naturopathic Medical Education

    Also, a new school opened up at: National University of Health Sciences: Interior Template This school is not yet accredited by CNME, but supposedly will be.

    Note that ND schools in Canada can only give out "private diploma" -- this means that the 4 years you spend at the 2 canadian schools will not be recognized as accredited worldwide.

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    eastern2western is offline Senior Member 46 points
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    The answer is no

    It is possible for some nds to make more money than some MDS. However, MDS generally have a much more job opportunities than NDs and they get pay more by the insurance companies For example, a MD can work hospitals as a resident after medical school and that starting salary is usually around 40k. After they gain their independent license to practice, then they can either open their own practice or work for many different places such as hospitals, prisons, military and insurance companies. The starting salary for those kind of jobs are usually around figures. For NDs, it is possible to take a decade for them to build up enough clientele to achieve that level of income.
    Another thing is MDs' income level is completely dependent on their specialties. Some one who is a cardiac surgeon can bill insurance companies hundreds of dollars just for a 10 minute check up with a patient. While on the other hand, most NDs can only open up their private pratice as their only source of employment after graduation. Opening up a practice is easy for people who have the necessary start up money, but it is really hard for new graduates who spent most of their money and energy on school and who only have debts in their bank account. MDs get a much better chance of repaying their loans because different state governments have programs that are design to recruite mds to practice in rural areas in exchange for loan repayments.
    Another thing is that it is easier to get into ND schools than MD schools in the states, but what it also means there will be more competitions for NDs once they graduate because of the limited job opportunities and too many graduates. This problem is what the chiropractic profession is currently experience right now because of their low acceptance standards (2.0 gpa and no mcat) and lack of employment options(private pratice or unemployment).
    If u are going to choose a health care profession, I would best recommend to either be a MD or at least be a nurse because those careers are very secure are have high starting salaries.
    Last edited by eastern2western; 09-03-2007 at 01:54 PM.

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    multigrain23 is offline Member 510 points
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    Last year I applied and was accepted to an ND program-- they told me I was one of their best applicants, in fact. However, before starting the program, I did a broad online search of classifieds searching for NDs. I even talked to the school's job placement counselor. She gave me links to additional classifieds specifically for the school's alumni. Looking through the listing, I was horrified by the opportunities. I remember some job listings offered to pay $150 per DAY to the ND... I was like "you got to be kidding!". It was really bad. I realize that opportunities are growing, but they just aren't that available at present-- not decent paying jobs at least. I have always been the idealistic type who believes you should follow your heart and not worry so much about money. However, being somewhat realistic is still important. Being $100-150,000 in debt and making $150/day (comes out to about $36k a year assuming you work the standard 48 weeks/year)... well that's just not feasible. I realize that some people can make much more with their own practice, but a lot of people REALLY struggle. In fact, several currently practicing NDs told me that if they had to do it over they would have gone to MD school instead (although at the time when they were in school, they were totally committed to naturopathic medicine).

    So I decided not to accept my admissions, and plan on going the Caribbean MD route... I hope to start school this year. I am still TOTALLY interested in naturopathic medicine, but may do some kind of integrative medicine fellowship later after I finish med school. Or if naturopathic schools are more accepted by the general community as being scientifically-based, then I may go to ND school later. (I talked to one ND professor who actually told me that NDs must use the placebo effect to their advantage-- I'm NOT kidding about this, he actually said that.) So even though I am so sincerely interested in holistic medicine, botanicals, and specialized nutrition-- I will not enter the ND field at this time.

    It is really interesting stuff, and I totally wish it were more recognized and more scientifically sound-- as it is such a great field. But I have to be able to pay my bills. And I want to help my patients only in scientifically-sound principles, and not use the placebo effect. I still believe in naturopathic medicine enough that I see an ND myself for chronic issues (going to an MD/DO only in a more acute situation)... as I am proactive about my own health-- but I think for helping the general population, it would be good for me to get an MD training.

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    spreebee is offline Member 510 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotentialPremed View Post
    I heard that ND's can make as much as MD's. Is this true? Also, are Naturopathic Medicine programs easier to get into than traditional med school?
    Don't waste your time getting an ND... As a med student I can say an M.D. will be more rewarding...There is a program near my undergrad that will award a certified ND after only 3 semesters... The cirriculum is horrible... No anatomy or lthe likes, and you take classes like introduction to herbs. In terms as salaries, you've got to be kidding me... They don't really work in hospitals, and 1 out of 1000 people probably actually go to see one for medical reasons so the salaries are like teachers wages. NDs in the U.S. right now serve more as nutritionists than anything... The degree in China is alot different than the U.S. version...Nevertheless, I knew a guy that had both a ND from China and a U.S. M.D. He said the ND cirriculum is a joke compared to working towards an M.D. He mentioned how the ND cirriculum was more or less comparable to Biology 101 in undergrad in terms of ease...One more thing... You can do what ND's do with your M.D. You are allowed to use herbal treatments as an M.D. and the likes... A doctor back home treats cancer (M.D.) using a mixture of herbs and clinical medicines, as well as oxygen therapy.... You certainly dont have all these powers as an ND...Plus, you learn about some herbs in pharm..
    Last edited by spreebee; 02-07-2008 at 01:21 AM.

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    superapple is offline Newbie 510 points
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    I am 22 y.o. and currently in the application process for several accredited ND schools. (I have been invited to one interview so far.) I am fully committed to, and absolutely believe in, the philosophy of naturopathic medicine. After being a patient of an ND myself for over 2 years, I can't imagine a better way to maintain and improve one's health. In addition to being a L.Ac, my ND also sells vitamins and herbal supplements to her patients. For follow-up visits, she charges $85 for 45 min of acupuncture only, $100 for 45 min of naturopathic care only, and $150/hr for acupuncture & naturopathic care together. However, due to the duration of each appointment, there is only so many patients she can see per day. And I don't even know how much she must be paying for rent in southern California (although she does share the practice with a couple of other associates, who are all either NDs or L.Acs.) In terms of insurance, I know my insurance will not cover naturopathic care (it does cover acupuncture, but there is a specific list of acupuncturists that I'd have to see, and my ND isn't one of them). I assume that most of my doctor's patients pay in cash. Pro - she doesn't have to deal with insurance. Con - there is only so much ND care that the patient can afford. Even I've had to space out my appointments further and further apart.

    I don't know for certain if I will be accepted into any of the ND schools I applied to, but if things turn out well, I'll be left with a hard decision. Naturopathic care is something I fully believe in - I just "clicked" with it. I don't have a desire to go to pharmacy school or optometry school - all suggestions put forth by my dad. I know he means well, but like some of you, he doesn't see how I can be financially stable as an ND/L.Ac. He probably feels that after "investing" myself in a professional health school for however many years, I should be doing decently, financially-speaking. And, deep down, I guess a small part of me agrees with that. I know I'll most likely be left with $150,000+ in student loans, and that's something I think about constantly. My heart is definitely in naturopathic care, but in terms of my future financial stability, I am still torn about my desire to follow my passion.

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    Caboose is offline Newbie 510 points
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    Should be studying...

    So, I just have to say that it is what you make it. I'm in medical school at the moment, (and I refer to ND as the same as MD because I am going through most of the same classes and at the same pace), and one thing they do not teach you is how to run a business. What happens when you get 3 friends who graduate together and run out to get a business up to go help people? Di-sa-ster. Most people who start businesses don't know what they are doing. Its no different for NDs. Maybe they stay afloat though - it's not like the world doesn't need doctors, right? So, you get someone working "oh, around 37hours a week, but sometimes I don't stay the whole day Friday..." and has such an enormous need to give that he/she has a sliding wage that works like the end a popsicle on a hot summers day.

    At a recent business seminar I heard a story about this poor guy who was horrid at keeping his books. Attempting to mop up the mess was this auditor who said that he watched some lady with an enormous balance on her account pay $100 for the visit or whatever, but then left with $800 worth of supplements. The ND with the obviously hypertrophied heart had to eat over 10 grand for that patient. Extreme case, but it happens.

    If I had limitless time and money on the earth I would have done my MD first and then my ND. This is because ND schools will take a lot of the credits from allopathic schools and it's not a two way deal. My motivation would be for insurance purposes.

    So, anyway, NDs just have to watch it because they're not mainstream and they're mostly private practice. Life - and salary - is what you make it. When surveying less than 200 people, it's hard to say what you would make as an ND. It's wide open.

    Caboose.

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    Caylie is offline Newbie 510 points
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    I've heard salaries are often around 30k/yr, with some really saavy ones getting into the 100k/yr. I heard many make money as reps for supplement companies.

    multigrain23- I can totally relate to your post. Thanks for sharing what you found on the job boards. I am struggling between doing an ND or MD. I'm also most interested in chronic-type cases and prevention, less interested in treating acute problems like bronchitis or something that needs surgery. Why Caribbean schools, are your grades/MCAT not quite US standards, even for a DO?

  9. #9
    dt
    dt is offline Elite Member 510 points
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    Okay, the salary survey moved. The current link is here:

    http://www.ncnm.edu/images/2004AlumniSurvey.pdf

  10. #10
    jackets5 is offline Senior Member 682 points
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    You will be very stupid and sorry if you decide to go to a naturopathic school. Go get a MD or a DO and actually be a real doctor and help people. All you will get is alot of debt and a bunch of useless knowledge. Really, i cant believe people are so dumb to believe in this crap

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