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  1. #1
    shawn9r14 is offline Newbie 510 points
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    What is the goal of medication?

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    Iis it to make you feel better? "symptom relief"? to make abstract numbers on a clinical test look closer to a "normal" heart? Protection against something?

    I know...I suppose the answer is "it varies by individual".

    I ask because my doc seems to be after me to up my medication, when I have no particular complaints at the moment irt my heart condition itself; my complaints, if any, relate more to the side effects of the damn drugs. I feel better, generally, without them. I've been on atenolol for several years now, but only 50mg/day. when I first started that, I felt like a lump. couldn't get out of my own way. doc said to take half a pill...that improved things some. I still felt sleepy and generally unmotivated most of the time...but for the most part, tolerable. last year, Doc convinced me to take half a pill, twice a day. said it would make me feel less fatigued if I could up the dose. I keep trying to tell him, "more pill=MORE fatigue". he says "no". its my heart that is causing the fatigue. I'm not buying it.

  2. #2
    AUCMD2006's Avatar
    AUCMD2006 is offline Ultimate Member 6129 points
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    complex question that depends on your physical condition. if you are over weight and or going into heart failure you need more medication..you need to understand cardiovascular physiology but the basics are that if you slow the heart rate there is more time for blood to fill and more will pump out. side effects increase as you up meds but at least it prevents the ultimate side effct...death and in order to understand how that can happen you need more detailed physiololy but the basics are that less blood pumping out from your heart requires your heart to pump faster, pumping faster means more energy reqs, more energy means it pumps faster, pumping faster means less filling time and so it goes until you have an adverse effect. slowing heart rate cuts this cycle off buit it makes you feel like bad.

    this is not medical advice just an oversimplification of physiology so you should talk with your doctor about concerns. sometimes its hard to communicate things that are so "simple" after studying it for years but you should understand why of things and know that doctors don't just decide to up meds for the sake of seeing patients have more side effects
    AUCMD2006
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  3. #3
    javier9u12 is offline Newbie 510 points
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    Re:What is the goal of medication?

    While you may not 'feel' the medication is helping, it is. Most of us are on some sort of medication. Unfortunately, not much research & development done by pharmaceutical companies for product development though we pay a huge amout towards this. The fact is rightly pointed out in a book “With a license to kill” by John Josefson ( Now available at Amazon and Barnes & Noble e-stores with ISBN no 978-1-84753-026-4
    also you can try at With a license to kill by John Josefson (Book) in Medicine & Science ).
    Hope this helps a bit, I am sure someone with more knowledge on this will pop in and help you out.

    Take care,

  4. #4
    firstdonoharm is offline Junior Member 510 points
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    Beta Blockers related to nutrient depletion

    Quote Originally Posted by shawn9r14 View Post
    Iis it to make you feel better? "symptom relief"? to make abstract numbers on a clinical test look closer to a "normal" heart? Protection against something?

    I know...I suppose the answer is "it varies by individual".

    I ask because my doc seems to be after me to up my medication, when I have no particular complaints at the moment irt my heart condition itself; my complaints, if any, relate more to the side effects of the damn drugs. I feel better, generally, without them. I've been on atenolol for several years now, but only 50mg/day. when I first started that, I felt like a lump. couldn't get out of my own way. doc said to take half a pill...that improved things some. I still felt sleepy and generally unmotivated most of the time...but for the most part, tolerable. last year, Doc convinced me to take half a pill, twice a day. said it would make me feel less fatigued if I could up the dose. I keep trying to tell him, "more pill=MORE fatigue". he says "no". its my heart that is causing the fatigue. I'm not buying it.

    It may in fact be your heart causing the fatigue ….but for a very good reason!

    This is a very important question to ask. We know beta blockers slow the heart and thus the blood flow too. I am assuming you take it for either elevated blood pressure, angina or migraine headaches….and to truly treat you, the doctor must first determine the cause of your problem. To me it doesn’t make sense to simply slow down the blood flow. Often the cause is diet or even stress. So once all avenues are investigated, only then should your treatment continue. If not, then your treatment may solely be based on symptomatic relief. One thing I do know is high blood pressure, angina and migraine headaches are NOT a beta blocker deficiency.


    Not only is it important to know the purpose of any medication, but how long one is expected to take it for. If you are placed on a prescriptive drug for many years, think of the different metabolic reactions that your body no longer is in control of because something foreign is supposed to regulate them. If you are unhappy with your treatment perhaps seek out a second opinion. Sometimes a medical doctor who practices integrative medicine would be able to treat you according to the cause of your problem. I know for sure that naturopathic doctors are highly trained primary practitioners who treat the cause of disease and look at preventive medicine. However, I do believe in both paradigms of medicine. I just have an issue with prolonged use of meds. Below will explain a little more about this.

    What you are describing could be due to nutrient depletion due to your beta blocker itself. Though your doctor has prescribed these meds for an obvious health concern, I don’t think your physician is aware of potential harmful nutrient depletions that could be occurring. Unfortunately many MD’s are in the same situation and I think the reason behind this is they are not educated adequately about this issue. For instance, beta blockers have been shown scientifically to deplete coenzyme Q10. The same holds true for statin drugs (the ones that lower cholesterol….such as Lipitor and Zocor, the number one and four most-prescribed drugs in the US in 2003) Statins constitute the fastest-growing category of prescription drugs. Statin drugs deplete the body of coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), which is also called ubiquinone because it is ubiquitous (throughout) in the human body. It is integral to the energy exchange between mitochondria and cells and thus has an important role in the body’s energy production (ATP). It has a stabilizing effect on heart rhythm and blood pressure and improves the heart tissues ability to survive under low-oxygen conditions (such as heart attack). Considering the importance of CoQ10, it seems rather alarming that a natural substance so vital to cardiovascular health is depleted by a medication that is prolifically prescribed for the heart. Furthermore, there is a high risk of statins causing muscle degeneration (rhabdomyolysis) which is often experienced by patients yet overlooked by their physicians.

    It is also important to note that if a medication is not depleting a nutrient directly, it may be interfering with the absorption or function of nutrients. I strongly suggest picking up a reference guide that deals with drug-nutrient depletion. I might also suggest that a physician assistant or naturopath could oversee the drug interactions for patients. It is a doctors responsibility to First Do No Harm!

    Bottom line is…..beta blockers rob your heart of coenzyme Q10 and will cause fatigue. It is a scientific fact! You may want to consider taking it alongside your beta blocker. It will be absolutely safe to do so. But check with your doctor first. If he/she is unwilling to help you out, then ask a naturopath!

    All the best in your health!!

    FDNH


    http://www.communitypharmacy.coop/article.cfm?articleID=45


    http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/index.php?pr=Pharmaceutical_induced&PHPSESSID=82b0 7da73e433f4e9a73881458987c6a

    http://www.rejuvenation-science.com/coq10_depletion.html


    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsDepletions/CardiovascularMedicationsBetaBlockerscl.html

    http://www.knowledgeofhealth.com/blog/2004_04_01_archive.html



  5. #5
    barita_lola is offline Newbie 510 points
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    medication for mental conditions

    post deleted
    Last edited by barita_lola; 02-04-2009 at 04:53 AM.

  6. #6
    atropine is offline Member 512 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstdonoharm View Post
    It may in fact be your heart causing the fatigue ….but for a very good reason!

    This is a very important question to ask. We know beta blockers slow the heart and thus the blood flow too. I am assuming you take it for either elevated blood pressure, angina or migraine headaches….and to truly treat you, the doctor must first determine the cause of your problem. To me it doesn’t make sense to simply slow down the blood flow. Often the cause is diet or even stress. So once all avenues are investigated, only then should your treatment continue. If not, then your treatment may solely be based on symptomatic relief. One thing I do know is high blood pressure, angina and migraine headaches are NOT a beta blocker deficiency.


    Not only is it important to know the purpose of any medication, but how long one is expected to take it for. If you are placed on a prescriptive drug for many years, think of the different metabolic reactions that your body no longer is in control of because something foreign is supposed to regulate them. If you are unhappy with your treatment perhaps seek out a second opinion. Sometimes a medical doctor who practices integrative medicine would be able to treat you according to the cause of your problem. I know for sure that naturopathic doctors are highly trained primary practitioners who treat the cause of disease and look at preventive medicine. However, I do believe in both paradigms of medicine. I just have an issue with prolonged use of meds. Below will explain a little more about this.

    What you are describing could be due to nutrient depletion due to your beta blocker itself. Though your doctor has prescribed these meds for an obvious health concern, I don’t think your physician is aware of potential harmful nutrient depletions that could be occurring. Unfortunately many MD’s are in the same situation and I think the reason behind this is they are not educated adequately about this issue. For instance, beta blockers have been shown scientifically to deplete coenzyme Q10. The same holds true for statin drugs (the ones that lower cholesterol….such as Lipitor and Zocor, the number one and four most-prescribed drugs in the US in 2003) Statins constitute the fastest-growing category of prescription drugs. Statin drugs deplete the body of coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), which is also called ubiquinone because it is ubiquitous (throughout) in the human body. It is integral to the energy exchange between mitochondria and cells and thus has an important role in the body’s energy production (ATP). It has a stabilizing effect on heart rhythm and blood pressure and improves the heart tissues ability to survive under low-oxygen conditions (such as heart attack). Considering the importance of CoQ10, it seems rather alarming that a natural substance so vital to cardiovascular health is depleted by a medication that is prolifically prescribed for the heart. Furthermore, there is a high risk of statins causing muscle degeneration (rhabdomyolysis) which is often experienced by patients yet overlooked by their physicians.

    It is also important to note that if a medication is not depleting a nutrient directly, it may be interfering with the absorption or function of nutrients. I strongly suggest picking up a reference guide that deals with drug-nutrient depletion. I might also suggest that a physician assistant or naturopath could oversee the drug interactions for patients. It is a doctors responsibility to First Do No Harm!

    Bottom line is…..beta blockers rob your heart of coenzyme Q10 and will cause fatigue. It is a scientific fact! You may want to consider taking it alongside your beta blocker. It will be absolutely safe to do so. But check with your doctor first. If he/she is unwilling to help you out, then ask a naturopath!

    All the best in your health!!

    FDNH


    http://www.communitypharmacy.coop/article.cfm?articleID=45


    http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/index.php?pr=Pharmaceutical_induced&PHPSESSID=82b0 7da73e433f4e9a73881458987c6a

    http://www.rejuvenation-science.com/coq10_depletion.html


    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsDepletions/CardiovascularMedicationsBetaBlockerscl.html

    http://www.knowledgeofhealth.com/blog/2004_04_01_archive.html

    You are oversimplifying the functions of the body and implying beta blockers are bad because they allegedly increase one small negative factor (CoQ10). That may be true (though I've never heard of it), but it is far outweighed by all the positive factors of beta blockers. Bottom line: they are shown to improve survival in patients with heart failure for a variety of reasons, and the same goes for statins, too. So the benefits are clearly outweighing the cons in the majority of people.

    You demonstrate the same problem in reducing a complex problem (fatigue) to one simple trait or factor that the patient may or may not even have (Coenzyme Q10 deficiency), which may or may not actually contribute to fatigue in any clinically significant amount. If the patient is feeling fatigued, this should be worked up by a medical doctor to ensure that there are not a variety of insidious causes of their fatigue, notwithstanding a possible progression of the heart failure itself to a higher degree.

    However, I respect the fact that you recommended this person take CoQ10 supplements alongside beta blockers, and did not suggest that they stop the beta blockers. I have nothing against naturopathic medicine advice to add-on therapy to a patient's existing profile, so long as it is evidence-based and cost-effective for the patient.

  7. #7
    jackets5 is offline Senior Member 682 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstdonoharm View Post
    It may in fact be your heart causing the fatigue ….but for a very good reason!

    This is a very important question to ask. We know beta blockers slow the heart and thus the blood flow too. I am assuming you take it for either elevated blood pressure, angina or migraine headaches….and to truly treat you, the doctor must first determine the cause of your problem. To me it doesn’t make sense to simply slow down the blood flow. Often the cause is diet or even stress. So once all avenues are investigated, only then should your treatment continue. If not, then your treatment may solely be based on symptomatic relief. One thing I do know is high blood pressure, angina and migraine headaches are NOT a beta blocker deficiency.


    Not only is it important to know the purpose of any medication, but how long one is expected to take it for. If you are placed on a prescriptive drug for many years, think of the different metabolic reactions that your body no longer is in control of because something foreign is supposed to regulate them. If you are unhappy with your treatment perhaps seek out a second opinion. Sometimes a medical doctor who practices integrative medicine would be able to treat you according to the cause of your problem. I know for sure that naturopathic doctors are highly trained primary practitioners who treat the cause of disease and look at preventive medicine. However, I do believe in both paradigms of medicine. I just have an issue with prolonged use of meds. Below will explain a little more about this.

    What you are describing could be due to nutrient depletion due to your beta blocker itself. Though your doctor has prescribed these meds for an obvious health concern, I don’t think your physician is aware of potential harmful nutrient depletions that could be occurring. Unfortunately many MD’s are in the same situation and I think the reason behind this is they are not educated adequately about this issue. For instance, beta blockers have been shown scientifically to deplete coenzyme Q10. The same holds true for statin drugs (the ones that lower cholesterol….such as Lipitor and Zocor, the number one and four most-prescribed drugs in the US in 2003) Statins constitute the fastest-growing category of prescription drugs. Statin drugs deplete the body of coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), which is also called ubiquinone because it is ubiquitous (throughout) in the human body. It is integral to the energy exchange between mitochondria and cells and thus has an important role in the body’s energy production (ATP). It has a stabilizing effect on heart rhythm and blood pressure and improves the heart tissues ability to survive under low-oxygen conditions (such as heart attack). Considering the importance of CoQ10, it seems rather alarming that a natural substance so vital to cardiovascular health is depleted by a medication that is prolifically prescribed for the heart. Furthermore, there is a high risk of statins causing muscle degeneration (rhabdomyolysis) which is often experienced by patients yet overlooked by their physicians.

    It is also important to note that if a medication is not depleting a nutrient directly, it may be interfering with the absorption or function of nutrients. I strongly suggest picking up a reference guide that deals with drug-nutrient depletion. I might also suggest that a physician assistant or naturopath could oversee the drug interactions for patients. It is a doctors responsibility to First Do No Harm!

    Bottom line is…..beta blockers rob your heart of coenzyme Q10 and will cause fatigue. It is a scientific fact! You may want to consider taking it alongside your beta blocker. It will be absolutely safe to do so. But check with your doctor first. If he/she is unwilling to help you out, then ask a naturopath!

    All the best in your health!!

    FDNH


    http://www.communitypharmacy.coop/article.cfm?articleID=45


    http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/index.php?pr=Pharmaceutical_induced&PHPSESSID=82b0 7da73e433f4e9a73881458987c6a

    http://www.rejuvenation-science.com/coq10_depletion.html


    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsDepletions/CardiovascularMedicationsBetaBlockerscl.html

    http://www.knowledgeofhealth.com/blog/2004_04_01_archive.html

    all i can say is wow. Your lack of understanding of physiology is mind boggling. Slowing down blood flow? You make it seem that this guy is getting a beta blocker with a normal persons heart or condition. the guy has a pathological condition. He said he was fatigued for a bit then his body adjusted and he felt better.

    Yeah the guy should go see a PA or a Naturopath, maybe he should attempt suicide as well. All these mid-levels trying to actually practice medicine when they do not posses the qualifications or knowledge to do so is frightening.

  8. #8
    sharonbaker is offline Newbie 510 points
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    goal of medication

    The goal of medication is prevant our body by adverse effects. Medication is used for keeping our body in healthy mode and it is helpful for reducing the illness and stay healthy forever... Thanks

  9. #9
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    safaribiker is offline Junior Member 510 points
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    Medications are only to relief symptoms..

  10. #10
    safaribiker's Avatar
    safaribiker is offline Junior Member 510 points
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    I did not see any medication that really treat the cause of the disease !

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