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Thread: Can someone explain a few things about the MUA residency appointment list?

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    drjohn1990 is offline Permanently Banned 510 points
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    Can someone explain a few things about the MUA residency appointment list?

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    I just saw MUA posted their 2018 residency appointment list (several weeks after some other schools) and I wanted to know a few things.

    1. Is there a way to find out how many students on the list matched on their first attempt?
    2. How many of those students completed the program in four years?
    3. I saw Johns Hopkins surgery for two years but is that a categorical or prelim position?
    4. How many of those "residency appointments" are a result of the NRMP match and how many are appointments outside of the match?


    The match/residency list is very important in making a decision to attend an offshore school but it also needs to provide a lot more information than just a bunch of locations which I believe only satisfy the most naive of people who are not familiar with for-profit education. In all fairness, all these Caribbean schools are like that. SGU is the only school that provides actual student names with each match which can be useful if you go to that school or know people from that school.

    I personally don't think the Caribbean is as bad a route as the Caribbean-haters or idiots on SDN would have you believe. I personally know more successful graduates than unsuccessful candidates so I am of the belief that you can succeed down the Caribbean route. Now which route you choose to take is quite another story and that is why I want to know if we can decipher the MUA residency appointment list in a little more detail. The IMG match as a whole seems to be improving or has at least remained somewhat steady for the past several years. I do believe however that matching is very involved and the prospective student just does not have enough information at their disposal to know what it really takes to match into a program from these schools. We're obviously never going to know what kind of scores these students have or what connections they have but the questions I listed above should help put a little more perspective on the list as it currently exists.

    Thanks
    Last edited by drjohn1990; 04-07-2018 at 09:18 AM. Reason: punctuation error

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    don1 is offline Moderator 547 points
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    I think most of that information is going to be hard to get.

    From my experience, MUA reaches out to students after the match so they can let the school know where they matched. Although most students will reply in a timely manner, some will not. MUA will know how many completed the program in 4 years but I assume that information will not be easy to get. I finished and matched in 4 years but not everyone in my class did. Mostly because some people took extra time off to study for exams or took more breaks between rotations. Sometimes at Caribbean schools lack of available rotations causes delays, but that wasn't an issue when I was there.

    Overall matching to a competitive residency program is a lot about making a connection. Some students are good at this. Matching at Hopkins is doesn't happen just because you had good scores and you applied. It happens because you do an elective there and someone there recognizes you are smart and pleasant to work with. That person advocates for you when it comes to ranking. Less competitive programs may not have someone do an elective with them and then may rely more scoring each component of an application like 1) usmle scores, 2) letters of reference, 3) letter of interest, 4) interview and then decide on selecting someone.

    hope that helps but I don't think you will get the information you are wanting. It would be great if that information reported by the NRMP for all schools. NRMP makes available a lot of match information but not the level of detail; at least not that I'm aware of.





    Quote Originally Posted by drjohn1990 View Post
    I just saw MUA posted their 2018 residency appointment list (several weeks after some other schools) and I wanted to know a few things.

    1. Is there a way to find out how many students on the list matched on their first attempt?
    2. How many of those students completed the program in four years?
    3. I saw Johns Hopkins surgery for two years but is that a categorical or prelim position?
    4. How many of those "residency appointments" are a result of the NRMP match and how many are appointments outside of the match?


    The match/residency list is very important in making a decision to attend an offshore school but it also needs to provide a lot more information than just a bunch of locations which I believe only satisfy the most naive of people who are not familiar with for-profit education. In all fairness, all these Caribbean schools are like that. SGU is the only school that provides actual student names with each match which can be useful if you go to that school or know people from that school.

    I personally don't think the Caribbean is as bad a route as the Caribbean-haters or idiots on SDN would have you believe. I personally know more successful graduates than unsuccessful candidates so I am of the belief that you can succeed down the Caribbean route. Now which route you choose to take is quite another story and that is why I want to know if we can decipher the MUA residency appointment list in a little more detail. The IMG match as a whole seems to be improving or has at least remained somewhat steady for the past several years. I do believe however that matching is very involved and the prospective student just does not have enough information at their disposal to know what it really takes to match into a program from these schools. We're obviously never going to know what kind of scores these students have or what connections they have but the questions I listed above should help put a little more perspective on the list as it currently exists.

    Thanks
    Last edited by don1; 04-08-2018 at 07:22 AM.
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    drjohn1990 is offline Permanently Banned 510 points
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    Yeah, I agree it will be hard to get because I don't think the school wants to give it out to begin with.

    But, you have to admit that having that type of information can really change your opinion of a program.

    Regarding Hopkins, we still need to know if that was a categorical or prelim. Categorical is a HUGE deal, prelim...not so much. The school just wants you to see the word "Hopkins" but what good is a Hopkins prelim after that first year if you are not offered a categorical spot? Essentially, it becomes a dead end of sorts.

    Like I said, this isn't something specific to MUA as all of these schools present their matches the same way but I'm just saying that matching is more than just a list of programs. I'd be more excited to see if >90% of students who started the program four years ago matched on their first attempt. That's something to celebrate. If some of these guys matched after three attempts, I wouldn't apply to that school.

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    don1 is offline Moderator 547 points
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    I agree with some of what you say.

    yes having detailed information about how many people finished in 4 years and matched into residency would change my opinion about a school. For sure. I matched categorical, so I am not sure what to make of a prelim match. Still it is impressive to match at Hopkins I think.

    Sadly, medical schools and residency programs will not give you all the information. Even some North American medical schools and residency programs that everyone assumes have great reputations have issues they won't tell you. I interviewed at what I thought to be a competitive program in a specialty and found it is was deemed "intent to withdraw".

    Overall I think the match list from MUA shows they are a real med school and their students match into residency becoming practicing physicians. But just because someone goes to MUA doesn't mean they will match for sure, or complete their studies in 4 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by drjohn1990 View Post
    Yeah, I agree it will be hard to get because I don't think the school wants to give it out to begin with.

    But, you have to admit that having that type of information can really change your opinion of a program.

    Regarding Hopkins, we still need to know if that was a categorical or prelim. Categorical is a HUGE deal, prelim...not so much. The school just wants you to see the word "Hopkins" but what good is a Hopkins prelim after that first year if you are not offered a categorical spot? Essentially, it becomes a dead end of sorts.

    Like I said, this isn't something specific to MUA as all of these schools present their matches the same way but I'm just saying that matching is more than just a list of programs. I'd be more excited to see if >90% of students who started the program four years ago matched on their first attempt. That's something to celebrate. If some of these guys matched after three attempts, I wouldn't apply to that school.
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    drjohn1990 is offline Permanently Banned 510 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by don1 View Post
    I agree with some of what you say.

    yes having detailed information about how many people finished in 4 years and matched into residency would change my opinion about a school. For sure. I matched categorical, so I am not sure what to make of a prelim match. Still it is impressive to match at Hopkins I think.

    Sadly, medical schools and residency programs will not give you all the information. Even some North American medical schools and residency programs that everyone assumes have great reputations have issues they won't tell you. I interviewed at what I thought to be a competitive program in a specialty and found it is was deemed "intent to withdraw".

    Overall I think the match list from MUA shows they are a real med school and their students match into residency becoming practicing physicians. But just because someone goes to MUA doesn't mean they will match for sure, or complete their studies in 4 years.
    I don't know man. That seems like an incredibly risky decision to attend then. Thanks for being honest though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drjohn1990 View Post
    I don't know man. That seems like an incredibly risky decision to attend then. Thanks for being honest though.
    That is because overseas medical education is a risky proposition. It just bloody well is. Yeah, it is possible to mitigate that risk somewhat by attending a higher-profile school, etc., but it never completely goes away until you are matched into a residency program. That goes for the Carib, for Europe, wherever.

    Yeah, a lot of people make it through and become docs. Aaaaand a lot don't, and they usually tend to disappear from these types of fora.

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    drjohn1990 is offline Permanently Banned 510 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc8404 View Post
    That is because overseas medical education is a risky proposition. It just bloody well is. Yeah, it is possible to mitigate that risk somewhat by attending a higher-profile school, etc., but it never completely goes away until you are matched into a residency program. That goes for the Carib, for Europe, wherever.

    Yeah, a lot of people make it through and become docs. Aaaaand a lot don't, and they usually tend to disappear from these types of fora.
    You're stating the obvious.

    My question was in reference to which Caribbean school gives you the best shot at succeeding...CONSIDERING the risk you have mentioned.

    My argument is that the Caribbean match lists, MUA in this case, are deceiving.

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    Oranges12 is offline Junior Member 510 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjohn1990 View Post
    I just saw MUA posted their 2018 residency appointment list (several weeks after some other schools) and I wanted to know a few things.

    1. Is there a way to find out how many students on the list matched on their first attempt?
    2. How many of those students completed the program in four years?
    3. I saw Johns Hopkins surgery for two years but is that a categorical or prelim position?
    4. How many of those "residency appointments" are a result of the NRMP match and how many are appointments outside of the match?


    The match/residency list is very important in making a decision to attend an offshore school but it also needs to provide a lot more information than just a bunch of locations which I believe only satisfy the most naive of people who are not familiar with for-profit education. In all fairness, all these Caribbean schools are like that. SGU is the only school that provides actual student names with each match which can be useful if you go to that school or know people from that school.

    I personally don't think the Caribbean is as bad a route as the Caribbean-haters or idiots on SDN would have you believe. I personally know more successful graduates than unsuccessful candidates so I am of the belief that you can succeed down the Caribbean route. Now which route you choose to take is quite another story and that is why I want to know if we can decipher the MUA residency appointment list in a little more detail. The IMG match as a whole seems to be improving or has at least remained somewhat steady for the past several years. I do believe however that matching is very involved and the prospective student just does not have enough information at their disposal to know what it really takes to match into a program from these schools. We're obviously never going to know what kind of scores these students have or what connections they have but the questions I listed above should help put a little more perspective on the list as it currently exists.

    Thanks
    1. No.
    2. Impossible to say.
    3. The 2016 Johns Hopkins match was prelim so I'm guessing this year's was too.
    4. These are all match day statistics as far as I know. Results outside of the match, including SOAP, do not get counted to my knowledge.

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    drjohn1990 is offline Permanently Banned 510 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oranges12 View Post
    1. No. This is critical to know so I'm disappointed this information is not available.
    2. Impossible to say. This is also critical to know before applying.
    3. The 2016 Johns Hopkins match was prelim so I'm guessing this year's was too. Any word on what happened to that prelim? And why can't MUA come out and say this was a prelim match?
    4. These are all match day statistics as far as I know. Results outside of the match, including SOAP, do not get counted to my knowledge. Interesting to know
    Thanks for your input.

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    Oranges12 is offline Junior Member 510 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjohn1990 View Post
    Thanks for your input.
    The Johns Hopkins prelim advanced into their categorical program I believe. I know the guy - he's very enthusiastic, motivated, and hard-working.

    And I would imagine that most of the people that matched did so on their first attempt, and most of them completed the program in 4 years. The number you'd really want to know is how many people didn't match, and that would be the scariest statistic for these Caribbean schools if they had to publish it.

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