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Thread: MUA kicking students out after passing comprehensive shelf exam? - 2014!!

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    2014notthere is offline Newbie 510 points
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    MUA kicking students out after passing comprehensive shelf exam? - 2014!!

    hey guys, just needed a suggestion. I was planning to apply to MUA for next semester to start medical school. However, I heard from a distant relative that MUA recently kicked about 20 or so students out even after passing the comprehensive shelf exam? is this true?

    MUA changed the contract for their students behind their backs and automatically made them comply to new contract rules. up until last year students would take 6 or even 8 months to take step 1 examination. Ive heard that this year they didnt notify the students of their policy changes and automatically kicked students out of the school after 120 days (4 months) of not taking step 1?


    is there any truth to this? I need to confirm this with more people, because there is no way i am going to this school if the school administration is being so sneaky and changing contracts behind students backs!!!!

    someone please confirm this news with me, i need to make a decision soon, either MUA or AUA. I'd rather go to AUA if this is true!

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    Quote Originally Posted by taha1991 View Post
    isnt that sort of a good thing? I may be wrong but from what i heard from majority of the students is that it should take you around 4-6, maybe 7 weeks to study for the step 1 because the longer you take to study the more material you will forget.
    They might have done this because students probably got high scoresr studying for 4-6 weeks right after med 5? And also some of the big 4 and AUA have restrictions. AUA and ROSS you can only retake the exam 3 times within one year which is the same policy as MUA

    This has nothing to do with repeated attempts. This has to do with time spent studying.
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    taha1991 is offline Newbie 510 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by siheg View Post
    This has nothing to do with repeated attempts. This has to do with time spent studying.
    that is what im trying to say, the more time you spent studying i.e +4 months the more info you will tend to forget

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    medmedstudent is offline Newbie 511 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by taha1991 View Post
    that is what im trying to say, the more time you spent studying i.e +4 months the more info you will tend to forget
    Yes for some students its best to take it as soon as possible. But dictating how all students should prepare for step is ridiculous. Remember this is dismissal its not some slap on the wrist. What the other schools have is a 1 year limit and a total of 2/3 chances to write the step. They still have the 1 year limit to sit for the step. Whether the student wants to take it in 7weeks or 50weeks should be up to the student.

    The step one is essentially a 1 shot deal. Failure or a low score is not an option. 17% match after failing step 1. After 4 years and a $100,000 Im not betting my career on 17%. As a carib student its ideal to aim for at least an average score, 50% percentile... On the shelf exams (the final exam for each class) the average MUA student gets a 30% percentile that is with a very generous curve. So you are expecting/forcing students to improve that much in all 10 subjects in 4 months? Yes maybe some smart dedicated students will be able to do it in that time. But not allowing even a 2 week extension for the most important exam of your med school career is a joke.

    some of that time will be spent doing practice questions and Re-learning topics and subjects that were taught poorly at a Caribbean medical school. Yes some profs are good, but a decent amount are not.

    Remember these are all students who passed basic sciences at MUA (where there is a 40% dropout rate).

    To force good students to rush, when essentially every other school does not, is detrimental to the students and the schools overall average step score
    Last edited by medmedstudent; 06-03-2014 at 06:14 PM.

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    medmedstudent is offline Newbie 511 points
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    Also the fact is 20+ students were told they had an year then suddenly after 4 months without warning were dismissed.

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    taha1991 is offline Newbie 510 points
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    Do you know where it says 17% match rate? And would you pick MUA over AUA? I don't understand why they would do such a thing. I mean MUAs usmle pass rate is already good enough.

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    medmedstudent is offline Newbie 511 points
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    It is 17%. I know 2 people who failed step 1 they said the exact same thing they did research. Its 17%.

    google nrmp.org match results 2014. I cant post a link,im too new. its in a huge pdf just look thru it

    Yes im sure MUA has a good pass rate. All schools have a good pass rate.

    1) they limit the students who can take step1 to people who have passed comp. So you should pass step if you pass comp.
    2) That was in the past they had the 1year limit (like i said for 10 years or so its been 1 year. Now its 4months, no exceptions no extensions. DISMISSAL if you dont)... This is a new rule implemented 2 months ago. I am sure pass rate wont be as high.
    3) PASS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH !!! A passing score is bottom 10% percentile. YOU WILL NOT MATCH WITH A PASS. STEP 1 pass rate is essentially a meaningless stat for caribbean med students. Its a nice high number to entice students to enroll.

    I am a current MUA student. I do well have never failed a course. I have nothing against the school personally. Its a good school. I am not bitter. But there are new deans and they are screwing students over. Numbers dont lie. I give you current facts

    I choose MUA over AUA 2 years ago. (just 2 months before cali approval). I would put MUA last after the big 4 and AUA. As a current carib med student. My advice is: step1 and step 2 are the be all and end all. Fail or get a low passing score and you career as a doctor is statistically finished. Yes there are the lucky ones. But i dont sugar coat anything. I am a current student at mua its a good school. But I would not recommend it IF you have a choice.
    Last edited by medmedstudent; 06-03-2014 at 07:15 PM.

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    medmedstudent is offline Newbie 511 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by taha1991 View Post
    that is what im trying to say, the more time you spent studying i.e +4 months the more info you will tend to forget
    so if its been 4 months and your not scoring well on practice exams what do you suggest?? Just write it because the school says so? Risk a fail... risk a 17% chance of matching after 4 years of putting your life on hold. 100,000$ in debt ?

    are you a medical student studying for step? I am i speak to current students studying. at the very least 30% of students (likely more considering i know people who rushed to write it because of the school) who finished basic sciences passed the comp didn't feel ready. Everyone has their opinion on how to study for step. Some people have circumstances some people take longer. This is not a pass and your good exam.

    Every other Caribbean school agrees that some people need more then 4 months. It is only MUA who does not.

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    Few things:
    1. I would think that MUA has a clause in their original handbook that says they have the right to change step requirements.
    2. They wouldn't do that without the legal right to do it.
    3. It is statistically accurate that if you wait longer than 2 months to take step 1, your chances begin going down. I believe it explains that in First Aid Step 1 book. I agree with don1.
    4. Yet, it does seem wrong to require everyone to take it by 4 months or your dismissed. That should be a students right, but this is a power differential. MUA holds the degree and you need them to certify you for step 1. It's in MUA's benefit to do this, because it's more regular/consistent with the way American students (the future is getting much tougher on carib schools) do.

    Get used to it. This can happen in many other settings also. Changes will be put upon you, with little warning, and you toughen up and do it, because often in medicine, you will realize the fight is too potentially damaging to your career, and it's easier to work around it. You also will be a small fish in a big pond, with little likelihood of gaining any support to challenge your program director when he/she dictates changes that cause you suffering sometimes. Ultimately they are trying to ymake the school more valid, but yes it's aggrivating. In the end, You will do what you have to. This is very against my nature as a person, but I've learned you have to be pragmatic sometimes, lose a battle and win a war. This sounds like a similar situation. And bottom line, nobody gains by studying 4 months for step 1. That would be a serious outlier.
    Last edited by SPODAT; 06-03-2014 at 10:30 PM. Reason: clarify
    MUA finished.
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    medmedstudent is offline Newbie 511 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPODAT View Post
    Few things:
    1. I would think that MUA has a clause in their original handbook that says they have the right to change step requirements.
    2. They wouldn't do that without the legal right to do it.
    3. It is statistically accurate that if you wait longer than 2 months to take step 1, your chances begin going down. I believe it explains that in First Aid Step 1 book. I agree with don1.
    4. Yet, it does seem wrong to require everyone to take it by 4 months or your dismissed. That should be a students right, but this is a power differential. MUA holds the degree and you need them to certify you for step 1. It's in MUA's benefit to do this, because it's more regular/consistent with the way American students (the future is getting much tougher on carib schools) do.

    Get used to it. This can happen in many other settings also. Changes will be put upon you, with little warning, and you toughen up and do it, because often in medicine, you will realize the fight is too potentially damaging to your career, and it's easier to work around it. You also will be a small fish in a big pond, with little likelihood of gaining any support to challenge your program director when he/she dictates changes that cause you suffering sometimes. Ultimately they are trying to ymake the school more valid, but yes it's aggrivating. In the end, You will do what you have to. This is very against my nature as a person, but I've learned you have to be pragmatic sometimes, lose a battle and win a war. This sounds like a similar situation. And bottom line, nobody gains by studying 4 months for step 1. That would be a serious outlier.
    1) They do not have a clause. I have looked the handbook over with 2 different lawyers. Their is no clause
    2) any such clause is essentially illegal according to state law in Massachusetts and many other states. A Students Handbook is considered a binding contract. These are just 2 examples of very similar situations where the school was proven wrong. (cant add links just copy and paste if you wish to read the articles)


    athensnews.com/ohio/article-39833-ou-to-pay-$11000-to-settle-nursing-studentrss-suit.html
    splc.org/news/newsflash.asp?id=2421

    3) Statistics for HOW a student should approach step 1 should not govern how a student studies for step 1. They are recommendations. Not Rules.
    There are circumstances. Example death in family. Divorce. Injury to the student.

    90% of students write using with their right hand? Should even left handed students write with their right hand? Statistics overwhelmingly suggest they should.

    4) What happened to last semesters MUA class was essentially we were given an assignment to complete in 10days. 4 Days into it they were told actually it was due yesterday. You are dismissed. NO Warning.

    In what sense does it make the school more valid?? No other Caribbean school or American med school dismisses for not writing in 4 months. How does one "toughen up" when they were explicitly told one thing, sign a contract, and without warning were dismissed because the deadline was cut by 2/3. There's a reason courts and laws and contracts exist. In this "small fish, in big pond" world the US courts have proven over and over again that a student handbook is a contract and can not be changed just at someone's whim.

    You state your a MUA graduate. So all the students who matched during your year should they not have got their MD's if they didnt write in 4 months? Should they have been dismissed without warning?
    Last edited by medmedstudent; 06-04-2014 at 12:18 AM.

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    doc2be1day is offline Member 512 points
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    MUA Always had this rule

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014notthere View Post
    MUA changed the contract for their students behind their backs and automatically made them comply to new contract rules. up until last year students would take 6 or even 8 months to take step 1 examination. Ive heard that this year they didnt notify the students of their policy changes and automatically kicked students out of the school after 120 days (4 months) of not taking step 1?
    I'm not sure what's really changed because even in 2009 MUA had a policy that students could take a year and 3 attempts to pass the Step I, but the first month had to be in the first 3 months. Not taking at least one attempt in the first 3 months without some kind of prior approval was grounds for dismissal and published in the clinical promotions guidelines. Therefore it was university policy and legal. If they actually changed it to 4 months (I don't know) then it have become more liberal, not less.

    And Ross is now trying to get students to take the Step I within weeks of taking the Comp after semester 4. That way the whole of semester 5 can be spent studying ICM and all their clinical rotations will be arranged by the time they finish the semester and can start without delay. Ross' pass rate went up to 97% last year, so less delay seems to work better.

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