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  1. #1
    nevisbutterfly's Avatar
    nevisbutterfly is offline Senior Member 523 points
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    Lawsuits and CA List

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    Does anyone know of any lawsuits against the CA list either being filed in CA or other states? If so please let me know.

    I think the CA list in unconstitional because those of us that are American citizens have no due process. States can decide on a "whim" to change to the CA list. By doing this, they are thumbing their nose at the USMLE Step 1, 2 and 3 and CS along with the ACGME that makes graduating doctors board eligible. Along with that note the individual boards give Board Tests that will allow that person to become board certified in their chosen speciality. With all that said, how can you be substandard in any fashion if a person has taken all the boards of USMLE, went through a rigerous intern and residency program which is highly regulated and passed their boards then they should be able to practice in all states providing they went through the above stated steps.

    If someone or a group of people could get a lawsuit filed and it could go to the US Supreme Court, I think things could change for all of us that have problems with the CA list. Of course the flipside of that is that we could get a royal screwing if the Court decided againist us.

    However, I think we all have a good case because we have NO due process at all at this time. States are granting license to foreign people just because of where their school was located and they are not even US citizens - we as US citizens should have the same rights as those people. Not that I think they (foreign people) don't deserve the right to be licensed - only that we should have the same rights as they do. For God's sake this is MY country.

    But so many are like me, no time, no money to do this. Maybe we can get someone to do this pro bono.

    Penny for your thoughts?
    Last edited by nevisbutterfly; 03-08-2009 at 10:12 AM.
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  2. #2
    maximillian genossa's Avatar
    maximillian genossa is offline Ultimate Member
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    The practice of medicine is a privilege not a right, therefore no constitutional grounds. Also they "protect" the public wealth fare and health by regulating the practice of medicine by deciding who gets to practice based on where they went to school, it is s state right to do so. There have been some attempts to sue in the past ALL have failed. No lawyer will take this pro-bono, do you have any idea how much it will cost to litigate this? At a potential rate of $300 plus per billable hour? I have personally followed the CA list for almost 2 decades now. I used to think like you, but I am very practical from a legal point of view, especially after seeing this argument for so long.




    Quote Originally Posted by nevisbutterfly View Post
    Does anyone know of any lawsuits against the CA list either being filed in CA or other states? If so please let me know.

    I think the CA list in unconstitional because those of us that are American citizens have no due process. States can decide on a "whim" to change to the CA list. By doing this, they are thumbing their nose at the USMLE Step 1, 2 and 3 and CS along with the ACGME that makes graduating doctors board eligible. Along with that note the individual boards give Board Tests that will allow that person to become board certified in their chosen speciality. With all that said, how can you be substandard in any fashion if a person has taken all the boards of USMLE, went through a rigerous intern and residency program which is highly regulated and passed their boards then they should be able to practice in all states providing they went through the above stated steps.

    If someone or a group of people could get a lawsuit filed and it could go to the US Supreme Court, I think things could change for all of us that have problems with the CA list. Of course the flipside of that is that we could get a royal screwing if the Court decided againist us.

    However, I think we all have a good case because we have NO due process at all at this time. States are granting license to foreign people just because of where their school was located and they are not even US citizens - we as US citizens should have the same rights as those people. Not that I think they (foreign people) don't deserve the right to be licensed - only that we should have the same rights as they do. For God's sake this is MY country.

    But so many are like me, no time, no money to do this. Maybe we can get someone to do this pro bono.

    Penny for your thoughts?
    "Sacrifice turns to revenge and believe me
    You'll see the face who'll say:I love you... I'll kill you...But I'll love you forever
    ..."If I die tomorrow, what will you tell me today?." Hidden Content Previously known as Genossa Maximillian

  3. #3
    jonasp's Avatar
    jonasp is offline Senior Member
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    I would like to see a more fair and balanced approach to licensing. I have no problem with california and i agree with genossa about medicine being a privilege. The problem is the ruling is inconsistent and scattered. There are many foreign institutions in other countries that are far far worse than caribbean schools but they are approved due to political correctness. If California was really concerned about protecting our citizens then they should scrutinize every school.There are tons of Indian institutions that admit those who can afford tuition and not on merit. There are schools in war torn poverty ravaged nations that hardly have any resources either in faculty or facilities.I don't buy the argument that these schools are preparing doctors for their own citizens so they should be approved,because when these doctors come to our country they are treating OUR citizens. Unfortunately this is a wrong that as carib students we have little power to make right.
    Last edited by jonasp; 03-08-2009 at 02:51 PM.
    Well, he's had it in for me ever since I "kinda" ran over his dog. Actually, replace "kinda" with "repeatedly," and replace "dog" with "son."

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  4. #4
    nevisbutterfly's Avatar
    nevisbutterfly is offline Senior Member 523 points
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    Medical license are are privledge and not a right. The right to deny on the basis of moral character etc.... However, the constituion gives all of us rights to due process - even in administrative law which governs the medical licensing boards. Otherwise can you see a medical board not allowing a person a license because of their race? I can tell you the US Supreme Court would be all over that. Could a medical board deny a person simply because they were of the wrong race, religion or sexual orientation? No - I don't think so.

    I don't agree with what is going on here. This is discrimination. Period.

    I know the pro bono thing was a "pipe dream". I certainly was not serious about anyone actually taking the case on - but it could really make a name for a struggling attorney like in Roe v Wade in 73.

    The US Supreme Court takes on cases that involve States Rights - well heck - the Civil War was fought over states rights. Does a State have the right to tell you that you are not good enough even though you are Board Certified in your field? Think about it - the Federal government will honor any State license and let us practice in ALL 50 states and territories in the VA system or the military bases.
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  5. #5
    jonasp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevisbutterfly View Post
    Medical license are are privledge and not a right. The right to deny on the basis of moral character etc.... However, the constituion gives all of us rights to due process - even in administrative law which governs the medical licensing boards. Otherwise can you see a medical board not allowing a person a license because of their race? I can tell you the US Supreme Court would be all over that. Could a medical board deny a person simply because they were of the wrong race, religion or sexual orientation? No - I don't think so.

    I don't agree with what is going on here. This is discrimination. Period.

    I know the pro bono thing was a "pipe dream". I certainly was not serious about anyone actually taking the case on - but it could really make a name for a struggling attorney like in Roe v Wade in 73.

    The US Supreme Court takes on cases that involve States Rights - well heck - the Civil War was fought over states rights. Does a State have the right to tell you that you are not good enough even though you are Board Certified in your field? Think about it - the Federal government will honor any State license and let us practice in ALL 50 states and territories in the VA system or the military bases.
    It is ridiculous that after board certification in one state a person is still banned from working in other states. Nevis if after residency and board certification you elect to fight this let me know i'll join you and i'm sure others will as well.Till then it will remain a "pipe dream"
    Well, he's had it in for me ever since I "kinda" ran over his dog. Actually, replace "kinda" with "repeatedly," and replace "dog" with "son."

    Lionel Hutz

  6. #6
    maximillian genossa's Avatar
    maximillian genossa is offline Ultimate Member
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    You are using the wrong analogy. A medical board cannot deny a license based on race, that is a fact. They cannot deny it based on religious creed, that is another fact. They cannot deny it due to gender, a fact. However they can DENY it based on where you went to school if they deem that your school is not up to their standards. The Federal system is totally independent from the State system, a State is in NO OBLIGATION to honor the license of another professional if they don't deem so. That my dear and confused friend, is what separation of State and Federal powers are for.

    As per your question..." Does a State have the right to tell you that you are not good enough even though you are Board Certified in your field?"

    It is a technicality , but the answer is yes. I will give you an good and simple example:

    Joe Schmuck is licensed in State X, which allows you to sit for a license without any limits on taking the USMLE. He is board certified in Family Medicine. Joe took USMLE Step 1 six times and Step 2 five times. Eventually he made it! Mazletof!

    Joe decides to move to State Y which has a limit of max 3 attempts in any of the USMLE exams and has no reciprocity agreement with any other state unless such state has the same requirements for licensure. Also State Y denies Joe, Joe sues at the State level, goes all the way up to the State Supreme court and is turned down. Joe decides to sue in Federal court....Federal court denies him because he has no valid argument under discrimination under Federal law.

    A MEDICAL LICENSE is a privilege, actually going to medical school is a privilege not a right. The day you can prove me or anyone with a little bit of know how, that a medical license and going to medical school is a right, touche, I will be the first to concede. Any state can regulate it as it finds convenient. There is due process already, California gives the opportunity for a school to apply for recognition. If they don't well, so be it. Other states are more flexible, true. You are trying to make equal a privilege with a right, that is not correct, a flawed and weak argument on your side.

    It sounds very familiar to some of us who have done this for a living for quite some time. But you will get there, eventually. Reality sucks, I know that.

    Wanna give it a try? Sue them and keep us posted. Good luck while you are at it.






    Quote Originally Posted by nevisbutterfly View Post
    Medical license are are privledge and not a right. The right to deny on the basis of moral character etc.... However, the constituion gives all of us rights to due process - even in administrative law which governs the medical licensing boards. Otherwise can you see a medical board not allowing a person a license because of their race? I can tell you the US Supreme Court would be all over that. Could a medical board deny a person simply because they were of the wrong race, religion or sexual orientation? No - I don't think so.

    I don't agree with what is going on here. This is discrimination. Period.

    I know the pro bono thing was a "pipe dream". I certainly was not serious about anyone actually taking the case on - but it could really make a name for a struggling attorney like in Roe v Wade in 73.

    The US Supreme Court takes on cases that involve States Rights - well heck - the Civil War was fought over states rights. Does a State have the right to tell you that you are not good enough even though you are Board Certified in your field? Think about it - the Federal government will honor any State license and let us practice in ALL 50 states and territories in the VA system or the military bases.
    Last edited by Aviv Imanuel; 03-09-2009 at 09:33 AM.
    "Sacrifice turns to revenge and believe me
    You'll see the face who'll say:I love you... I'll kill you...But I'll love you forever
    ..."If I die tomorrow, what will you tell me today?." Hidden Content Previously known as Genossa Maximillian

  7. #7
    ol' man's Avatar
    ol' man is offline Elite Member 49 points
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    Driving is also a privelege, but the federal government does not allow a state to prevent liscensed drivers from another bordering state from driving there, so the Federal system is not cpmpletely independent from the state system. The difference is that the feds get around states rights on this one via the ITT. I believe it would take an act of Congress to get this changed in favor of FMG/IMGs though....

  8. #8
    jonasp's Avatar
    jonasp is offline Senior Member
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    Good point ol man but i'm not too sure its the same. Again, I'm all for regulation and I have no problem with California wanting to scrutinize schools (AND I'm from smu.) The way its done however is inconsistent,counterintuitive and counterproductive and it affects other states who have neither the resources nor the desire to research the matter.
    Last edited by jonasp; 03-09-2009 at 12:10 PM.
    Well, he's had it in for me ever since I "kinda" ran over his dog. Actually, replace "kinda" with "repeatedly," and replace "dog" with "son."

    Lionel Hutz

  9. #9
    maximillian genossa's Avatar
    maximillian genossa is offline Ultimate Member
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    Reason why driving is permitted is because it affects Inter-state commerce, not the same analogy.




    Quote Originally Posted by ol' man View Post
    Driving is also a privelege, but the federal government does not allow a state to prevent liscensed drivers from another bordering state from driving there, so the Federal system is not cpmpletely independent from the state system. The difference is that the feds get around states rights on this one via the ITT. I believe it would take an act of Congress to get this changed in favor of FMG/IMGs though....
    "Sacrifice turns to revenge and believe me
    You'll see the face who'll say:I love you... I'll kill you...But I'll love you forever
    ..."If I die tomorrow, what will you tell me today?." Hidden Content Previously known as Genossa Maximillian

  10. #10
    seattle is offline Moderator
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    The CA list Question.....

    If you graduate from a Caribbean school that IS California approved, then can we obtain liscensure there eventually after passing all Step exams and gaining ECFMG certification? (Also assuming you have finished residency and all pertinent exams therein)

    For example, SABA got California approval in 2004. CA states they will accept all coursework completed after January 2002 I believe. So, if one enrolls in 2009, graduates in 2013...then goes on for residency let's say anywhere in the US, then wants to get licensed in CA someday, can that person do so?

    I understand all the nuances of passing exams and green book rotations and all that jazz, but my question is going to a CA approved school does give a leg up on getting licensed there? right?

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