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  1. #1
    fammed2002 is offline Member 510 points
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    tx med board president perjury/fraud investigation

    i would trust a court a law to be more fair then a medical board

    just read this ; you will be shocked

    TMB President - Official Oppression - Perjury

    let the discussion begin

  2. #11
    grobble is offline Permanently Banned 511 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by wcb22 View Post
    nice find fammed, this will definately produce changes in the TMB. i do not doubt other licensing authorities (like tennessee) engage in these kind of practices. maybe the new leadership will be more IMG friendly.
    The links to the hearings/testimony you and others show are comparing apples to oranges. They are dealing with already practicing physicians and complaints and disciplinary actions etc... Where are they dealing with initial liscensure issues?

    People need to stop blaming state medical boards and put the blame where it should be. The individual and Caribbean med schools.

    1) If you want to practice in a particular state check whether your school is approved in that state before you attend the school. The list of approved schools for Tx is clearly stated.

    2) Caribbean schools should have developed some kind of organization like LCME(US schools) long time ago. You have 20+ schools with no unified standards. Many of these schools are "very shady"! In this thread people keep talking about oversight and investigation of medical boards. What about oversight over Caribbean med schools? There is essentially none, charters are given out like candy. That's why Caribbean schools are so scrutinized by the larger state medical boards who have the resources to do so.
    Last edited by grobble; 12-31-2007 at 12:10 PM.

  3. #12
    fammed2002 is offline Member 510 points
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    actually not true

    some of those unapproved schools are based on list from another state.
    and those are from 1984-1985; when these schools were in the initial stages.

    LCME status is given to USA med schools only. so medical boards
    cannot state that your school is not lcme.

    quote
    The links to the hearings/testimony you and others show are comparing apples to oranges. They are dealing with already practicing physicians and complaints and disciplinary actions etc... Where are they dealing with initial liscensure issues? quote

    the same tactics of intimidation, lack of due process are even worst
    for IMGs applying for license

    from the tone of the previous post it seems unlikely you are west
    indies IMG.

    the medical boards are making up criteria as they go along to find some
    false basis to deny licensure.

    I would like to see some statistic that compares quality of care difference between US allopathic, IMG allopathic, US osteopathic.

    There is no difference. There is no "public safety" issue. One difference
    is that IMGs have a harder time with obtaining the more lucrative and
    saught after residencies.

  4. #13
    grobble is offline Permanently Banned 511 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    the same tactics of intimidation, lack of due process are even worst for IMGs applying for license
    Unsubstantiated claim. Any proof beyond anecdotes?

    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    from the tone of the previous post it seems unlikely you are west indies IMG.
    Students and Caribbean schools need to step up?
    1)Know what states your school is approved in and don't expect changes to that after you start. If you want to practice in CA or Tx go to a school with approval. That's not a "tone" as you put it. That's reality!

    2)Realize that many Caribbean schools don't really care about licensure issues and are diploma mills. They are concerned about making money. They don't care much if only 70% that start basic sciences make it to clinicals. If they really cared about reputation, licensure, etc...they would create a organization of oversight and standards over the region(based on LCME similiar standards). This would get rid of the "shady schools" which give Caribbeam schools a bad name. Chances of that happening? Slim and none, because they don't really care beyond $$$.

    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    the medical boards are making up criteria as they go along to find some
    false basis to deny licensure.
    Unsubstantiated claim. Any proof beyond anecdotes?

    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    There is no difference. There is no "public safety" issue. One difference
    is that IMGs have a harder time with obtaining the more lucrative and
    saught after residencies.
    Why do you think this happens? There is such a range of standards of each school in the Caribbean. Programs don't know what they are getting or the quality of clinical of education recieved b/c in some cases not all rotations are green book (ACGME approved) or have shelf exams for basic sciences or clinicals. The theme is obvious, having oversight and governing body upholding standards enhances the reputation of your education.

    The solution is clear for Caribbean schools in my mind. If I was a businessman wanting to make my Caribbeam school the top and cared about the licensure and reputation of my school and graduates I would do the following as starters.

    1)Help create a governing body based on LCME like standards
    2)MCAT mandatory and undergrad degree mandatory
    3)Make all your basic sciences with shelf exams
    4)All green book(ACGME) rotations
    5)Students must complete clinical cores before doing electives
    6)Clinical Shelf exams

  5. #14
    fammed2002 is offline Member 510 points
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    wrong on many accounts

    Originally Posted by fammed2002
    the same tactics of intimidation, lack of due process are even worst for IMGs applying for license

    Unsubstantiated claim. Any proof beyond anecdotes?

    yes, there is evidence. tenn licensed many doctors from spartan but
    for some reason including an individual who testified before the board
    and the board cites a newspaper article as evidence. that doctor
    was licensed in 4 states, board certified, resident of the year as a 3rd
    yr resident. it is the loss of tenn state that this doctor was not given a license. see board minutes 2004 sept-december


    next osteopathic grads. lets get this clear. osteopaths could not
    get into a usa allopathic schools just like caribbean grads. but they
    have local representation and in california have their own osteopathic
    board.

    if you want to talk about equivalence then all grads should have to
    pass the usmle and the osteopathic boards cannot be considered
    equivalent.

    does every international school have the exact same structure as a
    usa med school? No.
    In some countries their grads are far superior to USA allopathic grads.
    for example in India people start med school at 17 or 18 without
    an undergraduate and they excel when coming here.

    most of the people in the west indies have an undergraduate degree
    or require 90 hours of coursework with 1 hr chem, bio, physics, etc.
    ask around and see that most people have an undergraduate degree

    in applying to a usa school you also need 90 hrs of coursework.
    but remember the USA allopathic schools receive huge sums of
    money from federal and state sources and offshore schools rely
    on tuition for funding.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fammed2002
    the medical boards are making up criteria as they go along to find some
    false basis to deny licensure.


    Unsubstantiated claim. Any proof beyond anecdotes?

    look at tenn. they use the "centralized " education argument. in all
    med schools usa and international the parent institution monitors
    the basic and clinical education.

    the term substantial equivalence is a very broad stroke and application.

    the interesting thing is tx tried this with a spartan grad who trained at
    baylor peds. this grad had sparkling references and for this person
    her attorneys did a good job of showing that education was "substantially equivalent" and is now working is tx.

    there is plenty of room for everyone for work so instead of finding
    ways to exclude people look for similarities in training.
    same licensing exam, 3 plus yrs acgme grad med education , board
    certification, staff priviledges at hospitals.

  6. #15
    grobble is offline Permanently Banned 511 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    Originally Posted by fammed2002
    the same tactics of intimidation, lack of due process are even worst for IMGs applying for license.
    Where is there any intimidation or lack of due process. Is Spartan approved in that state? Why? Spartan is a "shady caribbean school" bottom tier school. That is a known fact that it is a school of last resort and I would be wary of any of their grads. They have been around for a long time and have made little to no improvements in their school. If a school is serious about quality med education they would take the steps for improving the reputation and standards of their school



    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    next osteopathic grads. lets get this clear. osteopaths could not
    get into a usa allopathic schools just like caribbean grads. but they
    have local representation and in california have their own osteopathic
    board. .
    Actaully I know people that applied to D.O school that were highly qualified for allopathic school.

    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    if you want to talk about equivalence then all grads should have to
    pass the usmle and the osteopathic boards cannot be considered
    equivalent..
    D.O and M.D are different degrees thus have different tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    does every international school have the exact same structure as a
    usa med school? No.
    In some countries their grads are far superior to USA allopathic grads.
    for example in India people start med school at 17 or 18 without
    an undergraduate and they excel when coming here...
    Other international schools are different from Caribbean. The other school are designed for natives of their country to pratice in their country while Caribbean schools are designed for US citizens to practice in the US. Other countries have a standard upheld by their country while there is none for Caribbean.

    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    but remember the USA allopathic schools receive huge sums of
    money from federal and state sources and offshore schools rely
    on tuition for funding...
    US school are concerned about quaility education and standards b/c they invest in the students. Many Caribbean schools are all about profit and don't care about 30% attrition rate or licensure issues of their grads.

    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    look at tenn. they use the "centralized " education argument. in all
    med schools usa and international the parent institution monitors
    the basic and clinical education....
    Who monitors Caribbean schools? Nobody as stated before, don't you see that as a problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by fammed2002 View Post
    there is plenty of room for everyone for work so instead of finding
    ways to exclude people look for similarities in training. .
    Equivalency in education should not have to be looked for as you put it. It should be obvious if you develope and organize your school towards that goal, which many schools have no desire to do b/c they are all about $$$ and not students, reputation, etc.

    There are two ways to go through life. Trying to have people lower standards so you can meet them or raise yourself to the standard. Unfortunately, many Caribbean grads and schools choose the former.
    Last edited by grobble; 12-31-2007 at 05:13 PM.

  7. #16
    maximillian genossa's Avatar
    maximillian genossa is offline Ultimate Member
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    not so unsubstatiated

    Any proof beyond anecdotes?

    Yes. Check a couple of years ago, this same forum a thread about the Minutes of Texas Medical Examiner's board and how swiftly they disposed of some candidates using mere technicalities. It was ridiculous. Check it out, you will find it. Good old buddy system is still pervasive in the great State of Texas.





    Quote Originally Posted by grobble View Post
    Unsubstantiated claim. Any proof beyond anecdotes?

    Yes. Check a couple of years ago, this same forum a thread about the Minutes of Texas Medical Examiner's board and how swiftly they disposed of some candidates using mere technicalities. It was ridiculous. Check it out, you will find it. Good old buddy system is still pervasive in the great State of Texas.



    St udents and Caribbean schools need to step up?
    1)Know what states your school is approved in and don't expect changes to that after you start. If you want to practice in CA or Tx go to a school with approval. That's not a "tone" as you put it. That's reality!

    2)Realize that many Caribbean schools don't really care about licensure issues and are diploma mills. They are concerned about making money. They don't care much if only 70% that start basic sciences make it to clinicals. If they really cared about reputation, licensure, etc...they would create a organization of oversight and standards over the region(based on LCME similiar standards). This would get rid of the "shady schools" which give Caribbeam schools a bad name. Chances of that happening? Slim and none, because they don't really care beyond $$$.



    Unsubstantiated claim. Any proof beyond anecdotes?



    Why do you think this happens? There is such a range of standards of each school in the Caribbean. Programs don't know what they are getting or the quality of clinical of education recieved b/c in some cases not all rotations are green book (ACGME approved) or have shelf exams for basic sciences or clinicals. The theme is obvious, having oversight and governing body upholding standards enhances the reputation of your education.

    The solution is clear for Caribbean schools in my mind. If I was a businessman wanting to make my Caribbeam school the top and cared about the licensure and reputation of my school and graduates I would do the following as starters.

    1)Help create a governing body based on LCME like standards
    2)MCAT mandatory and undergrad degree mandatory
    3)Make all your basic sciences with shelf exams
    4)All green book(ACGME) rotations
    5)Students must complete clinical cores before doing electives
    6)Clinical Shelf exams
    "Sacrifice turns to revenge and believe me
    You'll see the face who'll say:I love you... I'll kill you...But I'll love you forever
    ..."If I die tomorrow, what will you tell me today?." Hidden Content Previously known as Genossa Maximillian

  8. #17
    Aggiemd2b's Avatar
    Aggiemd2b is offline Senior Member 510 points
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    wcb22, nice letter but it has a typo you may want to fix prior to sending it out. If anyone else is going to send it you may want to correct it first. Not meaning to be rude but just in case people are doing a cut and paste.

    Both should be Texans

    health and wellbeing of fellow texas, as a fully qualified and competent doctor.

    It is a huge obstacle, and many shy away from it, like myself. Meanwhile, there are thousand and thousands of Texas who cannot access a doctor
    Last edited by Aggiemd2b; 12-31-2007 at 05:25 PM.

  9. #18
    wcb22 is offline Elite Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genossa maximillian View Post
    Any proof beyond anecdotes?

    Yes. Check a couple of years ago, this same forum a thread about the Minutes of Texas Medical Examiner's board and how swiftly they disposed of some candidates using mere technicalities. It was ridiculous. Check it out, you will find it. Good old buddy system is still pervasive in the great State of Texas.
    Genossa,

    thank you, that's what i am saying as well. i'm not saying there should be no standards, and that every state should license us regardless of how crappy our medical school was. i'm not saying that. the article, though doesn't talk at all about denying IMGs initial licenses, still talks about the blatent abuse of power. that's where i have a problem. it's where they can use a good ol boy system of giving perks where they want to give perks, and punish those who they want to punish. they are the judge, the jury and the witness, all in one nice fat package. due process doesn't exist with the TMB. and it's not right, especially when they abuse their power.
    M.D., PGY-3 Internal Medicine

  10. #19
    wcb22 is offline Elite Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggiemd2b View Post
    wcb22, nice letter but it has a typo you may want to fix prior to sending it out. If anyone else is going to send it you may want to correct it first. Not meaning to be rude but just in case people are doing a cut and paste.

    Both should be Texans

    health and wellbeing of fellow texas, as a fully qualified and competent doctor.

    It is a huge obstacle, and many shy away from it, like myself. Meanwhile, there are thousand and thousands of Texas who cannot access a doctor
    haha, yea, the "n" on my keyboard is stubborn, thanks!
    M.D., PGY-3 Internal Medicine

  11. #20
    stephew is offline Moderator Guru 512 points
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    grobbles general sentiment is right- no one owes any of us a medical license. we all were among the bottom pile of applicants to the us and couldnt get in (im not counting DO schools- that is a whole other issues). The states have every right to decide which trainees are properly qualifed. and no, the usmle alone isnt the be all and end all. in fact, dont most imgs use that arguement when claiming that they will make great docs in spite of their standardized testings (the mcats or usmles). the TMB may need an overhaul, and Im not fan of the lone star state's politics. but part of the sentiment behind the ire here isn't enlightenment, or even elightened self-interest..its just self interest masquerading as rightousness. the medical boards should have the patient population as first interest. I would love to see some IMGS looking for a rationale process wherein qualifying standards for imgs are set and agreed upon, and in return, irrationale biases are made moot. the thing is no caribbean consortium is likely to do have any meaningful weight for US decision makers. the US needs to have something standard whether initiated by the IMGs and schools themselves, or the states. Its better if the IMGs and Schools pioneer this.
    Steph
    If you get a warning, put on yer manpants and stop whining about it.

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