Sponsored Links
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 36
  1. #1
    r_stringer is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    48
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Everyone is so quick to dismiss polish schools. Where is the Proof?

    Advertisements



    Hello everyone,

    I am still trying to decide between polish and carribean schools. Now I read almost every post in this forum in regards of polish medical schools and especially those which are associated with HMI or Alliance. Everyone is very quick to dismiss those schools because they use agents. Again and again the only criticism has been , "shy away from those schools , they use agents" and usually these comments are from people who do not attend them.

    I just want to point out that this kind of critisim is counterproductive and inappropiate. When we discuss this medical schools, people are interested in the quality of education and the care the students recieve. Not one post has addressed this issue except the ones posted by students who visit those schools, and they seem to be contect I might add. Sure the professors have accents and yes adapting to an eastern european living standard takes time and motivation for North Americans but does that mean that these people are getting an inferior medical education? If so where is the proof?

    Again I am not doubting that there are some money hungry agents behind certain schools, but again that does not mean that having to pay for the opportinity to obtain a seat is a statement about it's lack of value.
    I remember having read a few posts about carribean students saying that for the USLMEs they still had to make a great independent effort to pass them. And we all agree that there is no curriculum that really prepares you for the North American system.

    People made remarks such as "You are paying the agent directly or indirectly through high tuition fees". But by all due respect the carribean school's tuition if not higher is not neccessary less either. And further one cannot forget that a polish education is recognized in europe and in North America vs an carribean one which is only taylored to the US market.

    Now I am a Newbie and I don't claim to know more than others neither do I claim that your findings are not true. I do however know how to recognize an objective and well supported argument and in my opinion noone has been able so far to provide one against the polish system. And hearsay by the way does not qualify as such either.

    It is very difficult for people who are in the process of making a decision to absorb all this information and to make the right choice. Please help them by actually providing constructive ciritism on the subject that matters most when choosing a school which is the quality of the medical education.

    Regards,

    Rob

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    354
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    well...

    you do bring up interesting points.. I think that it is important to evaluate the schools ability to prepare you for the USMLE thats really an important factor too..
    Dr. Hospitalist

  3. #3
    kmufangs is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    40
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    lectures

    being this past semester in the US doing electives, i got on the topic with a student and a few residents about lectures. now, this will be shocking for you to hear, but i found out that a great deal do not go to them. one resident went as far as to say that she hadn't been to a lecture since the middle of her first year. how true it is...i don't know.

    so it seems like like we, as students in the easteren european medical community, are not the only ones that motivate ourselves to study, epsecially when it comes to studying. the only difference is that they can study out of the BRS/NMS and be able to pass their course exams, and we have to know every nitty gritty detail in order to pass our course exam. also, their exams are geared for the USMLE and ours are not (though i think this is changing slowly in many school in the EE, at least where i am)

    oh yeah... oral exams are also present in the US (definitely not to the same extent as the ones that we are/might have been used to) and they are called "pimping".

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    354
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    yeah I will agree.

    good lectures are totally catered on an individual basis. However, it still is worth it to visit those schools to get an idea of the educational standards of each place.
    Dr. Hospitalist

  5. #5
    Miklos is offline Elite Member 511 points
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    2,243
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by r_stringer
    Hello everyone,

    I am still trying to decide between polish and carribean schools. Now I read almost every post in this forum in regards of polish medical schools and especially those which are associated with HMI or Alliance. Everyone is very quick to dismiss those schools because they use agents. Again and again the only criticism has been , "shy away from those schools , they use agents" and usually these comments are from people who do not attend them.

    I just want to point out that this kind of critisim is counterproductive and inappropiate. When we discuss this medical schools, people are interested in the quality of education and the care the students recieve. Not one post has addressed this issue except the ones posted by students who visit those schools, and they seem to be contect I might add. Sure the professors have accents and yes adapting to an eastern european living standard takes time and motivation for North Americans but does that mean that these people are getting an inferior medical education? If so where is the proof?

    Again I am not doubting that there are some money hungry agents behind certain schools, but again that does not mean that having to pay for the opportinity to obtain a seat is a statement about it's lack of value.
    I remember having read a few posts about carribean students saying that for the USLMEs they still had to make a great independent effort to pass them. And we all agree that there is no curriculum that really prepares you for the North American system.

    People made remarks such as "You are paying the agent directly or indirectly through high tuition fees". But by all due respect the carribean school's tuition if not higher is not neccessary less either. And further one cannot forget that a polish education is recognized in europe and in North America vs an carribean one which is only taylored to the US market.

    Now I am a Newbie and I don't claim to know more than others neither do I claim that your findings are not true. I do however know how to recognize an objective and well supported argument and in my opinion noone has been able so far to provide one against the polish system. And hearsay by the way does not qualify as such either.

    It is very difficult for people who are in the process of making a decision to absorb all this information and to make the right choice. Please help them by actually providing constructive ciritism on the subject that matters most when choosing a school which is the quality of the medical education.

    Regards,

    Rob
    Just quickly.

    1) Quality of education/proof. IMHO, the best way to judge this is by results. Polish schools (nor other EE schools) are simply not in the same league as the Big 3 when it comes to preparing students for a US residency. Ask simple questions. How many graduates? How many residencies? Where are those residencies? What is the first time pass USMLE pass rate? What is the attrition rate?

    Good luck getting accurate info from any EE school to those questions.

    2) Value for money. It goes back to results. What are you paying for when you pay SGU/AUC/Ross near 200k? A proven track record.

    Compare HMI at far less? What do you get from agents? Lies, galore.

    Compare Alliance. They are brand new. No record.

    Any time you deal with a med school agent, you are assuming significant risk. Much more so if the agent deals in EE schools.

    3) European recognition. 4 year Polish degrees are not universally recognized in Europe! Additionally, so far no Polish (English language degree) is recognized in California.

    I live in EE. I attend an EE med school. I've researched a number of others. I have dealt with agents.

    Take my advice with a grain of salt, but please remember that I do not make a single penny off your decision (unlike others).

  6. #6
    r_stringer is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    48
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Result

    Miklos,

    I know that you are not promoting carribean schools over EE schools for your own merits.

    I am just saying that you do not have proof that EE schools have better or worst results. True they do not pulish the numbers , but having said that the carribiean numbers relate to overall passing rates and not the first time ones. I am sure anyone with dedication and a good head on their shoulder will also pass the usmle eventually even if they are from a EE school.
    You keep reiterating the point that agents charge money and that the schools especially the polisch ones are not what the students imagine them to be. My response to that is a 200K carribean education is not neccessary justfied either and it certainly turns a profit. I myself rather graduate with 40K in debt and do a lot more self study. And there is a lot of older candidates who just simply do not want to take the MCAT , because we neither have the time nor the motivation to go back to study first year physics and chemistry.

    My ultimate point is that there is merit in any opportunity and just like any businees and let's face it Foreign medical school catering to americans are just that, everyone of these schools caters to a need of a special group and therefore has some value.Bottom line is there are people who are happ with their polish education and carribean studens who are unhappy. Having come to consenus to no Foregin med school is perfect, I don't think that any of us is in the position to take a few numbers out of context and draw conclusions which might frighten away interested candidates for any of the schools

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    354
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    hi

    hmm.. financial considerations can weigh in importantly.
    Dr. Hospitalist

  8. #8
    Miklos is offline Elite Member 511 points
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    2,243
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by r_stringer
    Miklos,

    I know that you are not promoting carribean schools over EE schools for your own merits.

    I am just saying that you do not have proof that EE schools have better or worst results. True they do not pulish the numbers , but having said that the carribiean numbers relate to overall passing rates and not the first time ones. I am sure anyone with dedication and a good head on their shoulder will also pass the usmle eventually even if they are from a EE school.
    Which carib schools?

    The only ones I personally would consider are the Big 3 (SGU/AUC/Ross).

    As far as proof goes, I highly suggest that you check out the residency placements earned by their graduates. There is no comparison.

    Also, see my post on the 2002 ECFMG certifications earned by country on this forum. (For reference, see the 2002 ECFMG annual report) Unless someone completes the 5th pathway, the only way to get an ACGME residency in the US is to get certified by the ECFMG. Look at the numbers. It is true that the ECFMG does not publish (I wish that they would change this policy) USMLE results by individual foreign schools, but the certification ARE SOLID EVIDENCE of a clear difference.

    You keep reiterating the point that agents charge money and that the schools especially the polisch ones are not what the students imagine them to be. My response to that is a 200K carribean education is not neccessary justfied either and it certainly turns a profit. I myself rather graduate with 40K in debt and do a lot more self study.
    I have no problems with profit based medical education. The question is what are you paying for?

    In EE, it is not uncommon for someone in an English language med school program sitting next to someone else to pay more for the same education. Why? Because student A was lazy and went the agent route, while student B checked out the med school in person and told the administration that she wouldn't pay agent's fees.

    Please keep in mind, that one of the most significant social/political/cultural problems in this region is the utter and total lack of transparency along with an inability to gain redress through legal action.

    This is why I trust a school like SGU/AUC/Ross far more than most (perhaps all) EE schools. All of the Big 3 have been succeeding at what they are doing for 25 years. They all have at least 3000 licensed, practicing physicians in the US. They have offices in the US as well as reputations to protect.

    And there is a lot of older candidates who just simply do not want to take the MCAT , because we neither have the time nor the motivation to go back to study first year physics and chemistry.
    Fair enough. Please keep in mind that if you enter a six year program, you will be studying those subjects again.

    My ultimate point is that there is merit in any opportunity and just like any businees and let's face it Foreign medical school catering to americans are just that, everyone of these schools caters to a need of a special group and therefore has some value.
    This is a fallacy.

    Like other businesses, there are excellent, good, fair, poor and others...

    Bottom line is there are people who are happ with their polish education and carribean studens who are unhappy.

    Having come to consenus to no Foregin med school is perfect, I don't think that any of us is in the position to take a few numbers out of context and draw conclusions which might frighten away interested candidates for any of the schools
    I am not taking ANY NUMBERS OUT OF CONTEXT!

    Quite the contrary.

    Anyone considering foreign med schools, should (IMHO) consider the following.

    1) How long has the school (or in the case of EE, English language program) been in business?

    2) In that time period, what results can the school/program claim?

    3) How much will I pay for the degree?

    4) Where can I use this degree?

    This is not a scare tactic. It is common sense.

  9. #9
    r_stringer is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    48
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    You are missing the point

    You just made some great points about why a carribean "Big Three" education is valuable.

    But that not the slightest makes a point against the EE schools. When you talk about comparison and numbers you should be refering to statistics which actually compare the percentage of students landing residencies from carribean against EE schools. Do you have such statistics? If so can you please refer me to it?

    If you are just taking the statistics pulished by the "Big3" and use that to discredit other institutions, than your argument is fundamentally flawed and seriously not acceptable.

    Agents. Well if those agents have established relatiosnshop with the US hospitals to place their students into rotations then they deserve the money. Good luck trying to arrange that by yourself. You can call it laziness , I call it paying for a service. And still the tuitions + agent fees are way cheaper than the "Big 3" fees.

    And finally you seem to be such a proponent for carribean education yet you chose an EE school and I am sure for very good reasons. This however only solidifies my original point and the purpose of this post which is every school caters to a special need and every opportunity is valuable and those advantages should not be overlooked.

    Rob

  10. #10
    Miklos is offline Elite Member 511 points
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    2,243
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by r_stringer
    You just made some great points about why a carribean "Big Three" education is valuable.

    But that not the slightest makes a point against the EE schools. When you talk about comparison and numbers you should be refering to statistics which actually compare the percentage of students landing residencies from carribean against EE schools. Do you have such statistics? If so can you please refer me to it?

    If you are just taking the statistics pulished by the "Big3" and use that to discredit other institutions, than your argument is fundamentally flawed and seriously not acceptable.
    Both SGU and Ross publish the names of their graduates and their residency appointments (in addition to some pretty comprehensive info).
    (It is true that AUC only publishes residency information without names.)
    For SGU/Ross, you can cross check the name with the names/schools appearing on the appropriate residency program, if you don't believe them.

    (Or you could pm the moderators on the individual school fora for SGU/Ross/AUC and tell them that you don't believe that 'their' graduates land such residencies...)

    Where are the residency appointments for EE schools?

    Do you really trust the agents representing EE schools more than you trust the information that SGU and Ross publish regarding residency appointments?

    Regardless, you haven't answered the problem with the certifications. It is quite clear that because SGU and Ross are the only med schools on their respective islands, their graduates are getting ECFMG certified. This means that they are passing the USMLEs.

    Agents. Well if those agents have established relatiosnshop with the US hospitals to place their students into rotations then they deserve the money. Good luck trying to arrange that by yourself. You can call it laziness , I call it paying for a service. And still the tuitions + agent fees are way cheaper than the "Big 3" fees.
    I fundamentally disagree. Why?

    Rotations are essentially free labor for whatever hospital you attend.

    If you pass Step 1 and do your homework, you will have the ability to do rotations in the US provided that your school allows you to do so (decent ones all do).

    You do need to do your homework and ensure that the hospital has an ACGME residency program in that specialty.

    The greater problem of doing it independently is that you may not have a formal affiliation agreement, which may be a problem come licensing time, unless you only do your rotation as an elective.

    As far as agents go, again, a word of warning. They cannot do anymore than you can, with the possible exception of setting up formal affiliations. However, I have seen some very shady people make promises that they could not fulfill when it comes to rotations. Often it turns out that the hospital does not have an ACGME residency program...in which case the rotation is meaningless and would have been better spent in back at the EE home institution.

    If anything, this is where AUC/SGU/Ross have a mindblowing advantage over any other foreign school. They basicallly "invented" this format and have 25 years of experience getting their students clerkships in the States and the UK.

    Actually, the funny thing is that med students from other places check out where SGU/Ross/AUC grads get residencies and/or do rotations, so that they can set up their own rotations...

    And finally you seem to be such a proponent for carribean education yet you chose an EE school and I am sure for very good reasons. This however only solidifies my original point and the purpose of this post which is every school caters to a special need and every opportunity is valuable and those advantages should not be overlooked.

    Rob
    Rob,

    I had very solid reasons to come here. Though I believe that I came here with my eyes open, as I had the language and cultural skills to begin with along with family connections, etc.. I have come to believe that this is not the best option for those wishing to return to the US, especially as I am getting ready to return.

    I recommend that you check out whatever school interests you in person and ask the questions I have put forth.

    Good luck.

    Miklos

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-16-2011, 08:40 PM
  2. Rank of Polish Schools
    By siheg in forum Polish Medical Schools
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-05-2009, 09:49 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-14-2008, 05:06 AM
  4. Polish Med schools
    By happy in forum Main European Medical Schools Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-07-2006, 05:34 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •