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  1. #1
    AgActual's Avatar
    AgActual is offline Member 525 points
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    DC/ND : A Good Option For Expanding Chiropratic Scope

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    Despite going to school with many, many naturopathic students, i always thought of naturopathy as glorified nutritionists with a healthy amount of pseudoscience thrown in. However, after a long talk a few months back with one ND student that i highly respect, i learned that this field is far different than i had originally thought. Being from Illinois, i wasn't really exposed to naturopathy until I came to National but i found out that naturopathic physicians are rather well known on the coasts of the US and canada. In fact, the popularity is expanding quite rapidly. Since i started at National about a year and a half ago, several states have legalized naturopathuic practice out east, including New York. But more importantly to those of us medically inclined chiropractic students, NDs have a significantly broader scope of practice. In most states where they are licensed, NDs have medium to broad prescription rights and can perform minor surgery. For example in the state that i want to practice, Oregon, ND formulary is a 5 page long list of medication. And this isn't some long list of botanicals or homeopathic remedies, these are real medications, including antibiotics, vaccinations, oxycodone, SNRIs, benzodiazapene, statins, epinephrine, and really anything that an MD family physician could commonly be prescribing. And as I have said, this is the case in several close to 20 states now.

    So what is my point? Well 2 chiropractic schools( that i know of) also have ND programs and allow for dual enrollment in DC and ND programs. In the case at National, a DC student dual enrolling by second year will only have an extra 16 months of schooling to earn the ND. And upon graduation, they will have a scope of practice similar to a DO in about 10 states in this country and a large portion of Canada. But also importantly, unlike just NDs, a DC/ND will have broad insurance coverage.

    And for those that already have a DC, National appears to have a two year program for earning an ND based on advanced standing nut i am less certain about that

    So, here is a new option for DC students at at least two schools that are interested in prescription rights or who become more interested in internal medicine as time goes on. Instead of dropping out and starting over at medical or osteopathic school, or finishing the DC and then going back or many years to med school, PA school, or NP school, or getting a ACP masters to be able to prescribe half a dozen medications in one state,earning an ND will get you to roughly the same place as a general practice DO in a fraction of the time, for a fraction of the cost.

    So this is what i have decided to do. There are elements of the ND program that i dont like, like homeopathy but when i graduate, i will have an extra year of internship under my belt and when i get inti practice, i will be able to do whatever i want.

    And for those wondering, i did research how competent NDs are at prescribing and performing minor surgery. I talked to a few of the MDs working at the school, including a DC/MD, all were completely confident that the training is sufficient. I also read some research studies looking at how NDs performed at prescribing, which concluded that they are on par with other fields that have broad prescription rights.
    Last edited by AgActual; 03-09-2012 at 12:25 PM.

  2. #2
    AgActual's Avatar
    AgActual is offline Member 525 points
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    Here is a current list of states that allow naturopaths to practice and their prescription rights


    • Alaska=None
    • Arizona=Broad
    • California=Broad with MD oversight
    • Connecticut=None
    • District of Columbia=Being revised
    • Hawaii=Broad
    • Idaho=None
    • Kansas=Being revised
    • Maine=Limited
    • Minnesota=None
    • Montana=Broad
    • New Hampshire=Broad
    • North Dakota=???
    • Oregon=Broad
    • Utah=Medium
    • Vermont=Medium
    • Washington=Broad
    • United States Territories: Puerto Rico and Virgin Islands=None




    Just to prove i am not lying, here the list of drugs that ND's can prescribe in Oregon

    Board of Naturopathic Medicine Naturopathic Formulary


    And to prove why going for an masters in ACP is a bad idea, here is what DC's can prescribe in just New Mexico. Notice how many of those things are OTC


    A.Hormones for topical, sublingual, oral use
    (1) estradiol
    (2) progesterone
    (3) testosterone
    (4) desicated thyroid

    B.Muscle relaxers; cyclobenzaprine
    C.NSAIDs - prescription strength
    (1) ibuprofen
    (2) naproxen
    D. Prescription medications for topical use
    (1) NMDC Ca2 dextromethorphan
    (2) NSAIDSs
    (a) ketoprofen
    (b) piroxicam
    (c) naproxen
    (d) ibuprofen
    (e) diclofenac
    (3) muscle relaxers; cyclobenzaprine
    (4) sodium chanel antagonist; lidocaine
    (5) minerals; magnesium
    E. Homeopathics requiring prescription
    F. Other substances by injection
    (1) sterile water
    (2) sterile saline
    (3) sarapin or its generic
    (4) caffeine
    (5) procaine HCL
    (6) epinephrine
    (7) homeopathic for injection
    (8) lidocaine
    (9) vitamins
    (a) aqueous vitamin A (IM)
    (b) ascorbic acid (vitamin C) (sub-Q or IM)
    (c) cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12 (sub-Q or IM)
    (d) folic acid (sun-Q IM)
    (e) hydroxocobalamin (vitamin B12) (IM)
    (f) methycobalamin (vitamin B12) (IM)
    (g) thiamin (vitamin B1) (IM)
    (10) dextrose (with additional chiropractic board approved education)
    (11) phenol (with additional chiropractic board approved education)
    (12) autologous blood (with additional medical board approved education)
    (13) collagenase (with additional medical board approved education)
    (14) glucosamine (with additional medical board approved education)
    (15) glycerin (with additional medical board approved education)
    (16) platelet rich plasma (with additional chiropractic board approved education)
    (17) sodium morrhaute (with addition medical board approved education)
    (18) sodium hyaluronate (with addition medical board approved education)



    And I can think of a few reasons why getting a DC/ND is better than just an ND. DC's are covered by insurance companies, ND's typically are not. DC's get much more training in MSK diagnosis and treatment, which is one of the most common reasons people go to the doctor. And i think most of us would agree, DC's are quite good at treating such conditions. Chiropractors are licensed in 50 states, ND's in 16, so much more freedom to move around, if needed. And chiropractors have a much higher average salary than ND's.
    Last edited by AgActual; 03-09-2012 at 12:30 PM.

  3. #3
    canuckdc is offline Junior Member 512 points
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    Just punt and go back to medical school, seems like your trying to justify yourself to much...

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    AgActual's Avatar
    AgActual is offline Member 525 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by canuckdc View Post
    Seems like your trying to justify yourself to much...
    I believe chiropractors should have full prescriptive rights, treat wounds, be able to act as full primary care for internal disorders, if needed; this is stuff I have been saying for years on this forum, since before i even started chiropractic school. And I have been saying that if the field wants to drag its feet on such issues that people interested in practicing in a more medical capacity, should look at outside options, such as earning an NP or PA. Or now we know, an ND, which seems to be a very good option for those that can go down that route. Why not share this info with people that are interested? No justifying, this is the same stuff i have been saying for 3 years. I finally just found an option that is right for me.

    And as a DC, you should know there is so much that you are going to learn at a place like National that you won't learn while getting your MD or DO. I want to know that stuff, I want to practice that stuff, med school wouldn't get me there. Full prescriptive rights and the ability to perform surgery adds more tools to my practice that i can use to help my patients. The more you know and the more you can do, the better you will be as a doctor. That is what I want to be. Pull together every treatment modality, whether it is manipulation, rehab, massage, nutrition, exercise, medication, minor surgery, to help people. That is what I want out of life. And if you don't like it then you can deal with it.
    Last edited by AgActual; 03-10-2012 at 11:20 AM.

  5. #5
    NUHS-AUC is offline Permanently Banned 535 points
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    DC/PA >>>DC/ND 2 years investment

    PLEASE !!!
    Stop with the nonsense....and go to either a real medical school or a PA school....don't waste your 2 years on getting a ND Degree...most states don't even license NDs, and the ones that do, PA is still a much better option.....(for 2 years.)



    Quote Originally Posted by AgActual View Post
    Despite going to school with many, many naturopathic students, i always thought of naturopathy as glorified nutritionists with a healthy amount of pseudoscience thrown in. However, after a long talk a few months back with one ND student that i highly respect, i learned that this field is far different than i had originally thought. Being from Illinois, i wasn't really exposed to naturopathy until I came to National but i found out that naturopathic physicians are rather well known on the coasts of the US and canada. In fact, the popularity is expanding quite rapidly. Since i started at National about a year and a half ago, several states have legalized naturopathuic practice out east, including New York. But more importantly to those of us medically inclined chiropractic students, NDs have a significantly broader scope of practice. In most states where they are licensed, NDs have medium to broad prescription rights and can perform minor surgery. For example in the state that i want to practice, Oregon, ND formulary is a 5 page long list of medication. And this isn't some long list of botanicals or homeopathic remedies, these are real medications, including antibiotics, vaccinations, oxycodone, SNRIs, benzodiazapene, statins, epinephrine, and really anything that an MD family physician could commonly be prescribing. And as I have said, this is the case in several close to 20 states now.

    So what is my point? Well 2 chiropractic schools( that i know of) also have ND programs and allow for dual enrollment in DC and ND programs. In the case at National, a DC student dual enrolling by second year will only have an extra 16 months of schooling to earn the ND. And upon graduation, they will have a scope of practice similar to a DO in about 10 states in this country and a large portion of Canada. But also importantly, unlike just NDs, a DC/ND will have broad insurance coverage.

    And for those that already have a DC, National appears to have a two year program for earning an ND based on advanced standing nut i am less certain about that

    So, here is a new option for DC students at at least two schools that are interested in prescription rights or who become more interested in internal medicine as time goes on. Instead of dropping out and starting over at medical or osteopathic school, or finishing the DC and then going back or many years to med school, PA school, or NP school, or getting a ACP masters to be able to prescribe half a dozen medications in one state,earning an ND will get you to roughly the same place as a general practice DO in a fraction of the time, for a fraction of the cost.

    So this is what i have decided to do. There are elements of the ND program that i dont like, like homeopathy but when i graduate, i will have an extra year of internship under my belt and when i get inti practice, i will be able to do whatever i want.

    And for those wondering, i did research how competent NDs are at prescribing and performing minor surgery. I talked to a few of the MDs working at the school, including a DC/MD, all were completely confident that the training is sufficient. I also read some research studies looking at how NDs performed at prescribing, which concluded that they are on par with other fields that have broad prescription rights.

  6. #6
    7125 is offline Junior Member 516 points
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    I agree with NUHS-AUC. Your goal should be geared toward working within the mainstream health care profession as opposed to away from it.

  7. #7
    AgActual's Avatar
    AgActual is offline Member 525 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUHS-AUC View Post
    PLEASE !!!
    Stop with the nonsense....and go to either a real medical school or a PA school....don't waste your 2 years on getting a ND Degree...most states don't even license NDs, and the ones that do, PA is still a much better option.....(for 2 years.)
    One extra year, not two. And what "nonsense" are you talking about? Wheres the problem? What am I doing that is so wrong? Enlighten me as to why i should become a lackey of an MD or why i should panic, abandon my career, and flee to the Caribbean?

    You said a few months ago that DC's should have prescriptive rights and a DC with prescriptive rights would be a worthwhile thing. So that is what I am going to be, just one extra year in school and a nearly free second doctorate but now that is not good enough. Now I have to be an MD. If you aren't an MD, you're nothing. Well I would rather be outside of the mainstream, in a nothing career than become another arrogant, rude, dismissive medical doctor.

  8. #8
    7125 is offline Junior Member 516 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgActual View Post
    One extra year, not two. And what "nonsense" are you talking about? Wheres the problem? What am I doing that is so wrong? Enlighten me as to why i should become a lackey of an MD or why i should panic, abandon my career, and flee to the Caribbean?

    You said a few months ago that DC's should have prescriptive rights and a DC with prescriptive rights would be a worthwhile thing. So that is what I am going to be, just one extra year in school and a nearly free second doctorate but now that is not good enough. Now I have to be an MD. If you aren't an MD, you're nothing. Well I would rather be outside of the mainstream, in a nothing career than become another arrogant, rude, dismissive medical doctor.
    Good luck man.

  9. #9
    axiomofchoice is offline Senior Member 6116 points
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    If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... its probably a DC/ND

  10. #10
    AgActual's Avatar
    AgActual is offline Member 525 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by axiomofchoice View Post
    If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... its probably a DC/ND
    Shhhhh, the adults are trying to talk.

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