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  1. #1
    hunteradam07 is offline Permanently Banned 511 points
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    What do u think the percentage of DCs who think that vaccinations for kids are a bad?

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    I recently spoke on a DC who told me that she doesnt believe in childhood vaccination. She told me that she didnt vaccinate her children and educating her patients not to vaccinate as well. Coming from medical point of view, i was "dumb-founded". She claimed that vaccination increase autism incidents in childhood. But i told her according to my Pediatric attending cited the largest study in JAMA has shown that there is no increase incident btw autism and vaccination. What i m concerned about is more than jz that point, i want to know do they plan to raise their children without any type of vaccinated immunities. Do they want to have their children living the bubbles or something? I mean although the incident of polio is very low but there are still some case in India and africa. But what about MMR, chicken pox, H. influenza, hep B, and more. So i jz want to know what do u guys think are the percentage of DCs who prescribe to the same logics? And how can they justify this? Thanks for ur input.

  2. #2
    MitchDC is offline Elite Member 512 points
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    Just a guess - maybe a LOUD 5-10%.

    -M

    Quote Originally Posted by hunteradam07 View Post
    I recently spoke on a DC who told me that she doesnt believe in childhood vaccination. She told me that she didnt vaccinate her children and educating her patients not to vaccinate as well. Coming from medical point of view, i was "dumb-founded". She claimed that vaccination increase autism incidents in childhood. But i told her according to my Pediatric attending cited the largest study in JAMA has shown that there is no increase incident btw autism and vaccination. What i m concerned about is more than jz that point, i want to know do they plan to raise their children without any type of vaccinated immunities. Do they want to have their children living the bubbles or something? I mean although the incident of polio is very low but there are still some case in India and africa. But what about MMR, chicken pox, H. influenza, hep B, and more. So i jz want to know what do u guys think are the percentage of DCs who prescribe to the same logics? And how can they justify this? Thanks for ur input.
    MitchDC/MD
    RUSM 2006 Graduate

  3. #3
    wcb22 is offline Elite Member
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    actually there may be with certain vaccines containing the compound thimerosol. it's a mercury containing preservative - and the comparison of symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning are extensive and startling. most all vaccines no longer have this compound in them anymore, but i believe the live flu vaccine still does, and maybe pneumoccocus, but i'm not sure. my child is getting her 4 mo old vaccines on monday, and you'd better believe i'm going to make sure thimerosol is not contained in them.

    the CDC is currently conducting a 5 billion dollar study to find out what in the world is causing this epidemic. we just don't know. but the incidence at the current time is 1:94 males, and 1:350 or so for females. 20 years ago it was somewhere around 1:5000. 10 years ago 1:1000, you get the picture. it's increasing at an alarming rate.
    Last edited by wcb22; 10-05-2007 at 11:22 PM.

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    nl9569's Avatar
    nl9569 is offline Senior Member 510 points
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    I think that not giving a child crucial vaccinations is jumping the gun in a very very big way. The CDC has reviewed studies by several independent groups and the National Academy of Sciences, Institute of medicine and they show no epidemiological evidence of a causal relationship between the MMR vacc and autism. The studies that this is based on apparently often contain flaws or are misinterpreted. Information many proponents cite from the California Department of Developmental studies shows how the number of autism cases has increased in tandem with the number of MMR vacc's given. It fails to take into account the rise in population over the years and express the percentage however. This would be like saying how dramatic the price of a loaf of bread has gone up from 1975 to 2006 but failing to take into account inflation over the years.
    Moreover, Autism is a psychological disorder with HIGHLY variable degrees of severity, and often multifactorial etiology. There is always the chance that more cases are being diagnosed through changing interpretations of what it means to be mildly autistic (some autistic people function very normally with only slight social signs) Certainly the age at which autism is diagnosed is younger than ever before. There are myriad of environmental factors such as wheat gluten in formula, the rate of single parenting, etc. etc. That could also contribute to developmental stagnation or regression at this time in a childs life. This is not to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE that some component of vaccines yet undiscovered may contribute to autism. There is simply not enough credible evidence to back this up. Saying that the symptoms seem to appear around the same time that vaccines are given is just not enough to say that vaccines are the cause. Social, physical, and mental development at this age is in a fragile state of flux and influenced by many things.

    The result of not vaccinating a child could lead to serious illness or death. The reason Polio, measles, rubella, and rubeola are no longer serious health concerns in the U.S. is due to sanitation and more importantly vaccinations. At this time, parents choosing not to vaccinate their children may benefit from so called "herd immunity," that is, if most of the other children that the unvaccinated child is near are themselves vaccinated then it may break the chain of transmission and prevent the unvaccinated child from getting the disease. The rub is that the more that people choose to not vaccinate their children the more this group immunity breaks down and the more you would see group outbreaks and perhaps epidemics in certain areas. I would never in a million years forgo essential vaccs like MMR or Polio for fear that my child would develop autism, not even if I had a child who was autistic who had recieved vaccs and was deciding for my next one.
    " I'll fight it, but I won't kill it. Now, what about my dynamite? "

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    eastern2western is offline Senior Member 46 points
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    u are taking medical opinions from a chiropractor?

    Quote Originally Posted by hunteradam07 View Post
    I recently spoke on a DC who told me that she doesnt believe in childhood vaccination. She told me that she didnt vaccinate her children and educating her patients not to vaccinate as well. Coming from medical point of view, i was "dumb-founded". She claimed that vaccination increase autism incidents in childhood. But i told her according to my Pediatric attending cited the largest study in JAMA has shown that there is no increase incident btw autism and vaccination. What i m concerned about is more than jz that point, i want to know do they plan to raise their children without any type of vaccinated immunities. Do they want to have their children living the bubbles or something? I mean although the incident of polio is very low but there are still some case in India and africa. But what about MMR, chicken pox, H. influenza, hep B, and more. So i jz want to know what do u guys think are the percentage of DCs who prescribe to the same logics? And how can they justify this? Thanks for ur input.
    1) First thing is they can not even agree among themselves about the fundamental theories of what chiropractic should be.
    2) They do have a lot of experience with treating soft tissue injuries, but most of them do not have a serious medical training like mds.

  6. #6
    wcb22 is offline Elite Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by nl9569 View Post
    I think that not giving a child crucial vaccinations is jumping the gun in a very very big way. The CDC has reviewed studies by several independent groups and the National Academy of Sciences, Institute of medicine and they show no epidemiological evidence of a causal relationship between the MMR vacc and autism. The studies that this is based on apparently often contain flaws or are misinterpreted. Information many proponents cite from the California Department of Developmental studies shows how the number of autism cases has increased in tandem with the number of MMR vacc's given. It fails to take into account the rise in population over the years and express the percentage however. This would be like saying how dramatic the price of a loaf of bread has gone up from 1975 to 2006 but failing to take into account inflation over the years.
    Moreover, Autism is a psychological disorder with HIGHLY variable degrees of severity, and often multifactorial etiology. There is always the chance that more cases are being diagnosed through changing interpretations of what it means to be mildly autistic (some autistic people function very normally with only slight social signs) Certainly the age at which autism is diagnosed is younger than ever before. There are myriad of environmental factors such as wheat gluten in formula, the rate of single parenting, etc. etc. That could also contribute to developmental stagnation or regression at this time in a childs life. This is not to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE that some component of vaccines yet undiscovered may contribute to autism. There is simply not enough credible evidence to back this up. Saying that the symptoms seem to appear around the same time that vaccines are given is just not enough to say that vaccines are the cause. Social, physical, and mental development at this age is in a fragile state of flux and influenced by many things.

    The result of not vaccinating a child could lead to serious illness or death. The reason Polio, measles, rubella, and rubeola are no longer serious health concerns in the U.S. is due to sanitation and more importantly vaccinations. At this time, parents choosing not to vaccinate their children may benefit from so called "herd immunity," that is, if most of the other children that the unvaccinated child is near are themselves vaccinated then it may break the chain of transmission and prevent the unvaccinated child from getting the disease. The rub is that the more that people choose to not vaccinate their children the more this group immunity breaks down and the more you would see group outbreaks and perhaps epidemics in certain areas. I would never in a million years forgo essential vaccs like MMR or Polio for fear that my child would develop autism, not even if I had a child who was autistic who had recieved vaccs and was deciding for my next one.
    very good points, i totally agree. i'm just saying as a new father of a 4 month old girl, i'm making sure the vaccines she gets are thimerosol free. herd immunity will break down with unwarrented fears about vaccination. that could make the situation worse.

  7. #7
    AUCMD2006's Avatar
    AUCMD2006 is offline Ultimate Member 6129 points
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    statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by wcb22 View Post
    actually there may be with certain vaccines containing the compound thimerosol. it's a mercury containing preservative - and the comparison of symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning are extensive and startling. most all vaccines no longer have this compound in them anymore, but i believe the live flu vaccine still does, and maybe pneumoccocus, but i'm not sure. my child is getting her 4 mo old vaccines on monday, and you'd better believe i'm going to make sure thimerosol is not contained in them.

    the CDC is currently conducting a 5 billion dollar study to find out what in the world is causing this epidemic. we just don't know. but the incidence at the current time is 1:94 males, and 1:350 or so for females. 20 years ago it was somewhere around 1:5000. 10 years ago 1:1000, you get the picture. it's increasing at an alarming rate.
    statistics are pure ** more so when you try and compare things over a time span. the key to this is diagnosis. we are diagnosing this alot more and more physicians are able to recognize this when 20-40 years ago
    the diagnosis may have been mental retardation, or borderline functioning. so unless we can go back in time and see these patients and use current diagnosis criteria i don't beleive these statistics with an "epidemic" of autism anymore than the "epidemic" of depresion, adhd, etc its all about better diagnosis..some may say more "liberal" diagnosis criteria but diagnosis is the key to the perceived "epidemic" status of most things now days.

    and many symptoms mimic each other.. so what thermasol has mercury in it and mercury poisoning has symptoms similar to autism..what level of mercury is needed to be considered toxic and present with those symptoms? what level is in one vaccine? this is the same as saying a bad case of gastritis has the some of the same symptoms as a surgical belly so all gastritis is a surgical belly and everyone with gastritis needs an open laparotomy or that some of the symptoms of a headache are the same as a ruptured anneurysm so everyone with a headache needs a burr hole.

    all this is more likely just a factor of the 'american' mode of thinking that if anything at anytime is wrong it has absolutely to be someones fault.

    i will use breast cancer as another example. the rates of breast cancer increased from 500,000 to over 1.1 million worldwide from 1972 to 2002...now do women get more breast cancer now or is it a factor or massive public education campaigns, self breast exams, digital mammograms, ultra sound, better biopsy diagnosis? how about the increasing age? how many cases of breast cancer were there in the 1700's when life expectancy was much lower? i expect the rates of breast cancer to rise more as mri increases in use
    AUCMD2006
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  8. #8
    hunteradam07 is offline Permanently Banned 511 points
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    That is why i want to ask the all the DCs outthere to take an absolute stand-unify stand-against this type of "quackerism" thinking. And it's not a philosphical debate anymore when u are using misinformation to teach you pts to not vaccinate their children. Please please please to read up more on independent, double-blind, and gold strandard research instead something someone said at a weekend seminar or a hand out. Your are not hurting the creditiblity of your profession, but you are endangered your own children and the next generation of american children. PLease please think twice and thrice.

  9. #9
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    drjohnwebb is offline Senior Member 510 points
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    Well... most of the people I went to chiro school with did NOT vaccinate their children. I hate to say it, but they are some of the healthiest children I have ever seen and NONE of them have ever had any major illnesses.

    However, I do not believe chiropractors should be sharing their personal beliefs with patients. If a chiro tells someone not to get a vaccine, stop taking their meds, etc.. that is practicing medicine without a license. Chiropractors are fed a lot of that crap in school.

    Now, to add... chiropractors do get a good education in sciences. Their subluxation model has not been scientifically validated, but the spinal manipulations that are performed have shown significant results. The results are not always repeatable and vary from patient to patient. One poster was correct, they do not get the level, depth and length of education medicine receives.

    In my 6 years of practicing chiropractic, I have to say that I helped many, many people. Chiropractic does work. Anyone on here that is becoming a MD, let me tell you.. as a level headed, scientific medical student myself, chiropractic care does work, to an extent. People love their chiropractors and the worse thing you can ever do is tell them not to go. If I had a dollar for every patient a MD lost because he bad-mouthed chiropractic, I'd move next door to Bill Gates.

    Remember, medicine is not a cure all or end all to all problems. As physicians you have to be open minded to other treatments that you may not understand. Chiropractors don't like medications, but it is because they lack the knowledge how they help. Likewise, MD don't understand what chiropractors do, they only assume they know. I have made friends with MDs, some of who would send me patients for headaches and backaches. When we where alone they would ask me "what is it that you actually do in your office?" They had NO clue.

    In fact, I had an orthopedic surgeon that I heard give a talk at a school on scoliosis to parents. He said that spinal manipulation did NOT help scoliosis. His pamplets he handed out even condemed the use of spinal manipulation for scoliosis. I laughed at what he was saying because I had patients every week that would come in to me, because he had been doing spinal manipulation on them, for scoliosis. He would kick them out of his practice when their insurance would max out. But, he was doing the one therapy that he said didn't work.. 3 times a week.

    It is also funny when MDs say that the therapies chiropractors do, don't work. So, the chiropractors said fine.. then let's take spinal manipulation out of your practice act, so you can't do it.. They spent millions of dollars fighting it, so they could keep the right to do a treatment, that they say doesn't work. ODD..

    Point is... chiros need to watch themselves. They think MD are against them and if it is true, it is because of dumb things they do. Chiropractors are their own worst enemies and they will be the downfall of their own profession.

  10. #10
    AUCMD2006's Avatar
    AUCMD2006 is offline Ultimate Member 6129 points
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    benefits

    [quote=drjohnwebb;682567]Well... most of the people I went to chiro school with did NOT vaccinate their children. I hate to say it, but they are some of the healthiest children I have ever seen and NONE of them have ever had any major illnesses. [quote]

    reaping the benefits of herd immunity...tell you waht, i'l take my kids, their kids for a scenic tour of rural india and see who comes back. you know reason for health in the industriualized world is sanitation and immunization programs

    i agree with the rest of what you said. i would have no problem referring my patients to a chiro however i will make sure that the chiro trained at a school that teaches science based curricula which unfortunately is not all the schools. my friend still insists on going to life.. he has been sold on their curricula and treatment philosophy

    there are a few quacks in every field. mine right now are militant midwives that beleive every birth should be a home birth and love to quote statistics of problems in hospitals or the minute number of problems with labor inductions or our 20% c section rate but never quote numbers before hospital birthing and fetal monitoring when every birth was ahome birth.
    AUCMD2006
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