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  1. #1
    jerseygirl4 is offline Junior Member 517 points
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    shining some light on the clinical situation-green vs blue vs umbrella-JACKSON PARK

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    hey guys

    ok so I have definitely been doing my homework as far as the rotations go. i decided that I wanted to find out for MYSELF what the hell each thing is.

    I called Nj medical board bc thats my state (obviously). The head guy there who is in charge of giving people licenses called me back today (he's super awesome) and this is what he said:

    To get a license in NJ you need to have 4 weeks of each clinical in a AOA or a ACGME accredited rotation. He said that he does not care about other weeks spent in these rotations or any kind of electives. he said that this is done just to get ur AUA diploma (remember this is just NJ). He went through everythign w/ me and told me that when you apply for ur license, they will ask u did you do x amount of rotations (cores) and were they all at ACGME or AOA approved rotations. at which time u put yes or no. if you put yes and they somehow DO check and find out ur in big trouble bc then they will stop u from getting a license in any state and deem u as a liar... if i put "no" since obviously jackson park is NOT acgme accredited for psych,will you deny me? he said "we will not deny u we will simply say u have not met all the requirements for licensure in nj" and then i'd have to either do that rotation AGAIN somewhere else or do something equal to it in order to get a license. aka doing a rotation at JP in psych, i'd have to RE DO IT at some point ...which sucks

    now about the UMBRELLA..
    when i called Jackson park and asked about the 'green' rotation of psych-core a very rude woman told me that it's green. im like so psych is green? shes like "well its green under the family practice umbrella" im like "so is it green?" shes like "yes under the umbrella' im like BUT IS IT GREEN (sheesh) and shes like "well no its blue"..I asked the NJ man about green/ blue bc i had read this somewhere today (which might legitimize JP telling me that blue = umbrella)Blue Book Rotations unofficial; we speculate this to refer to conducting any core or elective rotation in a hospital who possesses the ACGME status for a Family Practice residency program NJ man told me forget color all i need to worry about is if its ACGME or AOA accredited. if yes im good if no then NO. he also told me that as far as "umbrella" he never heard of it in his life but that if it did exist one way to be able to tell if 'under the umbrella' is acgme accredited would be to go to ACGME themselves and ask (which JP is not on the website ) or to call JP and ask for somethign in writing saying that it is ACGME accredited for PSYCH OR he said that each rotation that is ACGME accredited has a "code" associated w/ it and if i ask them for that code to legitimize my rotation that is another way to prove its acutally ACGME accredited (which we know there is no code bc we know its not green).

    hope this helps

    Last edited by jerseygirl4; 06-24-2009 at 07:15 PM.

  2. #2
    DrSpeaksSoftly is offline Member 512 points
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    I actually called JP yesterday and specifically inquired about thier accreditation. The man gave me the same "umbrella" line and I pressed him further on the issue. He started to stutter and flail when I asked if that mean say...surgery...was ACGME certified. He said it was under the umbrella. So I asked, "Does that mean when I apply for residency it will state that surgery is ACGME certified?" He didn't really answer my question so much as dance around the issue.

    He then said there were only 2-3 states that were really picky about that and I corrected him telling him that it was 12 states, considerable number when you think that all 50 states are not available to us. I also told him that Jackson Park does not come up as ACGME certified on the website and therefore it is akin to fraud telling people that rotations are green when in fact they are not. He got nervous and hgave me a number to the person in charge of the Family residence program. I won't bother calling her, if this guy (basically in charge of clinicals at JP) doesn't know the facts why would the person in charge of the residency program?

    According to Sree's previous post, if a program has a residency program in Family then the other rotations become AOA certified...so bluebook. I need to do some more research on this but in the end it still means I won't be able to apply to certain states if I accept those rotations. And refusing rotations is no longer an option at AUA, (I was just informed by the dean), basically you will pay a fine and have to stay out for the duration of the rotation.
    Graduated June 2011!!!! Matched In Psychiatry 2012 PGY-1 Pgy-2 Passed Step 3 July 2016 Attending in Psychiatry

  3. #3
    ATG
    ATG is offline Member 512 points
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    you have got to be kidding

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSpeaksSoftly View Post
    And refusing rotations is no longer an option at AUA, (I was just informed by the dean), basically you will pay a fine and have to stay out for the duration of the rotation.


    Isn't it punishment enough that passing up non-green rotations for green rotations causes serious delays in timing for the match???

    And isn't it bad enough that those of us from NY who were given the impression that we would be able to do all green rotations here, are finding out now that if they do not relocate the wait could be several months?

    If AUA chooses to adopt this new policy, it wil have serious consequences on the future of the med school. There has got to be someone else in the administration who would realize what a stupid idea this is.

  4. #4
    DOC.p's Avatar
    DOC.p is offline Super Moderator 7191 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSpeaksSoftly View Post
    I actually called JP yesterday and specifically inquired about thier accreditation. The man gave me the same "umbrella" line and I pressed him further on the issue. He started to stutter and flail when I asked if that mean say...surgery...was ACGME certified. He said it was under the umbrella. So I asked, "Does that mean when I apply for residency it will state that surgery is ACGME certified?" He didn't really answer my question so much as dance around the issue.

    He then said there were only 2-3 states that were really picky about that and I corrected him telling him that it was 12 states, considerable number when you think that all 50 states are not available to us. I also told him that Jackson Park does not come up as ACGME certified on the website and therefore it is akin to fraud telling people that rotations are green when in fact they are not. He got nervous and hgave me a number to the person in charge of the Family residence program. I won't bother calling her, if this guy (basically in charge of clinicals at JP) doesn't know the facts why would the person in charge of the residency program?

    According to Sree's previous post, if a program has a residency program in Family then the other rotations become AOA certified...so bluebook. I need to do some more research on this but in the end it still means I won't be able to apply to certain states if I accept those rotations. And refusing rotations is no longer an option at AUA, (I was just informed by the dean), basically you will pay a fine and have to stay out for the duration of the rotation.
    AOA are DO residencies - correct me if i'm wrong. there are no DO residencies at Jackson Park so in the case of NJ and other states that require it, you will not be licensed in those states. forget about the colors, blue, green, pink...look if there are ACGME residencies or AOA residencies
    M.D.

  5. #5
    DOC.p's Avatar
    DOC.p is offline Super Moderator 7191 points
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    here's a link if your state will accept rotations done at AOA programs: Opportunities - AOA-Approved Internships and Residencies

    no surprise, Jackson Park is not on there
    M.D.

  6. #6
    jerseygirl4 is offline Junior Member 517 points
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    yes this is exactly what i was saying about jp they don't really know what the 'umbrella' is it's apparently according to the NJ board a made up term so be careeeeful!

  7. #7
    cheburashka is offline Newbie 510 points
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    Why is this going on at AUA? Need Answers from AUA officials.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSpeaksSoftly View Post
    And refusing rotations is no longer an option at AUA, (I was just informed by the dean), basically you will pay a fine and have to stay out for the duration of the rotation.
    How can AUA make us accept non-ACGME accredited programs when on their website it says "All rotations are completed at ACGME-affiliated teaching hospitals in the U.S.". It also says "Upon successful completion of the Basic Sciences curriculum, students begin their clinical training. Conducted in the United States, this component consists of 75 weeks of clinical clerkships at ACGME-affiliated teaching hospitals." Doesn't this mean that all of the programs are ACGME accredited.

    Also in the AUA student handbook it says : "While waiting for Step 1 results, a student is permitted to perform up to a maximum of twelve (12) weeks of a clinical rotation(s) unless restrictions exist." Doesn't this mean that we can apply for and start clinicals after taking the step 1, then why is AUA saying we can't even start applying and sending in the paperwork until we get our scores back. (they need to open up more ACGME accredited rotations).

    Also I agree with what shree said : "If what you said is true - that physician employees of AUA are now lying to you about rotations - that is very disturbing and they should be reported to the state's ethics board. There's no real point appealing the decision higher up AUA's hierarchy because the bottom line is that unaccredited rotations are cheaper and easier to obtain and I don't see AUA changing its policy in the foreseeable future." I think something needs to be done about this because if the clinical department at AUA is lying to it's students then this is unethical.

    To sum it all how can AUA make us do rotations that are not ACGME accredited and then tell us that we have to pay a fine and sit out the duration of that rotation when we are paying 12 k per semester, why would we want to limit where we do residency. And also why are they lying to us that all the rotations are ACGME accredited. If this continues then every week they will make new rules and policies that will make us pay more, limit where we practice, and make us wait more to start clinicals. We, the future graduates of AUA need to start acting now before this continues even further.

  8. #8
    DrSpeaksSoftly is offline Member 512 points
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    I agree with you whole-heartedly, however I have no idea how to go about dealing with the mess. If the dean himself is telling me that we cannot turn down rotations (and also using this made up term of "umbrella") then who exactly do we complain to? I feel this is akin to blackmail telling us there will be time and monetary consequences to turning down non-green rotations. Basically the email I received stated all rotations were "ACGME, AOA, or in the case of JP under the 'umbrella' " and therefore I was not permitted to turn down a rotation without consequence. It was very slick in that while JP is green for FAMILY it is not green for anything else. So they are following the letter if not the spirit.

    The fact is that AUA has seriously bit off more than it can chew. While they have no problem raking in the cash from our tuitions they lack the spots in clinicals for their student load. The truth of the matter is that 12 states require all cores to be green and they do not recognize any "umbrella" situation. But the folks at AUA either will not or cannot understand this fact. It's been four years they have been told this by students who've actually researched this in depth. So if they are still telling the same line are they not sure or are they lying? I am inclined to think the latter, especially given this new "fining" of refused rotations that are not greenbook.

    If anyone has a constructive ideas on how to deal with this I am all ears. But at this time they (coordinators and dean) have all the power and I am in a hugely vulerable position. I mean, they have our careers literally in their hands.
    Graduated June 2011!!!! Matched In Psychiatry 2012 PGY-1 Pgy-2 Passed Step 3 July 2016 Attending in Psychiatry

  9. #9
    md12886 is offline Member 510 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSpeaksSoftly View Post

    And refusing rotations is no longer an option at AUA, (I was just informed by the dean), basically you will pay a fine and have to stay out for the duration of the rotation.
    interesting. did he specify how much was the fine? i mean paying 12 k for crappy rotations + new fines - 12 states licesure. what else can go wrong?

    Dr W P was on the island last week for 5th sem presentation and he assured students that there was no major wait time for greenbook clinicals if a student is not too picky about the location. bunch of lies!!!

    Its interesting that they have 15 staff members for registeration and admissions and the whole clinical department is handled by 2 people who never answers/return your messages promptly. that just shows how much they care about students once you are off the island.
    Last edited by md12886; 06-26-2009 at 07:18 AM.

  10. #10
    Fornis J. Plebney is offline Senior Member 525 points
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    Just sent an email about all this to the new clinical ombudsman AUA recently hired. We'll see what she has to say.

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