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CorporateRaider
12-26-2005, 07:14 PM
General question for students of all schools, but more specific.....St. Chris:

What was the motivating factor for picking your school or maybe a combination of factors?

1.) Price

2.) Loans

3.) Prestige

4.) Forced by Parent

5.) Name Brand Recognition

smoohead
12-26-2005, 09:25 PM
Why are you asking this in this particular forum? Aren't our reasons the same as everyone elses at other schools? Ask yourself that same question and you'll have your answer... None of these save maybe the first are really any good...and if the answer is any of the latter 3, then I'm sorry for you.

Tritonesub
12-26-2005, 09:54 PM
Most people go there because they either didnt or are afraid they wont get into a U.S. school. Then when choosing between living in a 3rd world country (like the carribean) or a place like the U.K., which has a lifestyle comparable to our own, most choose schools like st. chris. The situation in the carribean has improved though over the years from what ive heard from a lifestyle point of view (running water, phoneline, internet, fast food). But you have to remember that in those places the law is still corrupt and so you are not as well protected as in the U.K.... and people dont look at you like the new naive foreigner to exploit.

Loans and price is the next big thing as well as cost of living. In the carribean for example you have to put down a $1000 dollar deposit to get a phone line. In england things are comparably priced to here (if you are from a big city like chicago or NY)... you can pay your bills over the net.... essentially you can get almost anything that you can get here (except kool-aid.. for some reason)

Prestige and Name brand is useless. No one cares once you come back to the states. It depends how hard you work. Most programs would take a doctor who works hard and went to St. Whoever than an average student from yale... and lot of them actually do. More and more programs are choosing foreign grads over american grads because they are greatful to work and work hard. Programs are starting to notice that there needs to be a serious attitude adjustment of american medical grads who want everything served on a silver plater... and expect special treatment because they are 'a doctor'. American grads are in some cases less well trained because they are allowed to never attend lectures if they choose ...and because of legal reasons in the US some never even touch a patient until they get into residency. For this reason some of the central american and carribean schools train better grads because in those countries you dont have to worry about litigation.... i've heard of some students who did an appendectomy by themselves their 4th year of medical school.... there are even some 3rd year surgery residents here in the U.S. that havent done that. As far as the UK... they are more like the U.S. .... when i was there we were able to see and examine pts but as more countries slowly become as litigation trigger happy as the U.S. ... this might change and would probably change in the U.K. many years before it would in the carib and central and south america.

The factors you should consider is where you want to practice as some schools have advantages in certain states with licensure (mainly money and politics). Then i would consider the lifestyle and cost of living of the country where you would be going to school. Then i would worry about the price since most are about the same.

Dont worry about the name or prestige..... this is the real world... you are what you practice. You should have seen some of the idiots i rotated with... some from ivy league schools like yale (although yale never had a good medical program).

............... of course if you can get into Hopkins thats another story... then you have pretty much bought your retirement ticket.... but 99% percent of the medical world is not... so welcome to the club of working hard at what you do to make a living.

.....any other questions? thoughts?

neilc
12-26-2005, 10:01 PM
where you go to school does matter, in some cases. for example, if you graduate from some schools, you can never work in some states. some schools have yet to have very many licensed grads, so you cannot be sure how the states will recieve the application for licensure. some schools have a vast alumni network, and have had lots of successful residents, which certainly makes it easier.

all that being said, if you go to one of the more established and reputable schools, it matters a lot less where you went. if you go to one of the newer schools, your school will certainly matter and be a limiting factor.

Tritonesub
12-26-2005, 10:20 PM
To an extent. If you practice after residency with a license in any state for 5-10 years you can get licensed anywhere.

And most of these restrictions are falling because states simply cannot meet their quota for primary care docs. For example Texas which had blindly adopted california's policies for many years changed its laws last year to basically allow anyone to do a residency there as long as they met the core rotation curriculum which as just about the same for all of the off-shore us schools. Wyoming recently changed its law which didnt allow foreign grads to be licenced until after their residency to being able to apply during their 2nd year after step 3.

Competency is based on the individual ...not where you went to school.. and the laws are starting to reflect this... because when someone sues you they dont sue the school they sue you... whether you went U of texas or St. matts.

As failures in the american medical education system start revealing themselves... going to a U.S. med school may not be an automatic 'in' by itself.

Tritonesub
12-26-2005, 10:21 PM
my point being that the laws are trending towards being more lax

neilc
12-26-2005, 10:50 PM
To an extent. If you practice after residency with a license in any state for 5-10 years you can get licensed anywhere.

And most of these restrictions are falling because states simply cannot meet their quota for primary care docs. For example Texas which had blindly adopted california's policies for many years changed its laws last year to basically allow anyone to do a residency there as long as they met the core rotation curriculum which as just about the same for all of the off-shore us schools. Wyoming recently changed its law which didnt allow foreign grads to be licenced until after their residency to being able to apply during their 2nd year after step 3.

Competency is based on the individual ...not where you went to school.. and the laws are starting to reflect this... because when someone sues you they dont sue the school they sue you... whether you went U of texas or St. matts.

As failures in the american medical education system start revealing themselves... going to a U.S. med school may not be an automatic 'in' by itself.

first of all, getting a license somewhere does not guarantee you a license anywhere. colorado, oregon, indiana, texas, PA and CA come to mind as toughies.

second of all, as far as residency in texas....for starters, a st chris grad was recently denied a training license in texas. do a search on this forum and you will find it discussed. and, texas law for residency is much easier than it is for permanent licensure. basically, they will let almost anyone be a resident there, but your SCHOOL (not you as an individual) has to be substantially equivilent to a texas school in order to get a license.

Tritonesub
12-26-2005, 11:05 PM
True.. but you'd be surprised what a couple of thousand and a good lawyer (there are tons of ads for these guys in JAMA etc) can do as far as getting licensed once you have a good record of practice elsewhere.

As far as the equivalency... as to date... none of the off shore schools are on texas' approved list... not even ross or george... but I know for a fact of a cardiologist practicing in dallas who went to ross and a St. Matts grad that is an internist in El Paso

Eventually if you work hard enough at something it will get done... it may take several appeals and some money... but all of these things are on a case by case basis... no one simply throws out your application because you went to a certain med school.

neilc
12-26-2005, 11:06 PM
True.. but you'd be surprised what a couple of thousand and a good lawyer (there are tons of ads for these guys in JAMA etc) can do as far as getting licensed once you have a good record of practice elsewhere.

As far as the equivalency... as to date... none of the off shore schools are on texas' approved list... not even ross or george... but I know for a fact of a cardiologist practicing in dallas who went to ross and a St. Matts grad that is an internist in El Paso

Eventually if you work hard enough at something it will get done... it may take several appeals and some money... but all of these things are on a case by case basis... no one simply throws out your application because you went to a certain med school.

that seems to me like a lot of extra work that the established schools can help you avoid. and, with your method, there is at least an equal chance of getting ruled against with a lawyer.

neilc
12-26-2005, 11:07 PM
my point being that the laws are trending towards being more lax

i 100% disagree. with the FSMB meeting to discuss offshore schools, states looking at and using the CA list i think that increased regulation is in the future. i would love to see some evidence that backs up your opinion.

Tritonesub
12-26-2005, 11:10 PM
By the way... are you aware that even though it is not written.. Oklahoma has reciprocity with texas if you practice there for 2 years. This was put into effect because of a number of rural docs that had to cross state lines in order to cover the patient population.

....... not all that is written is law

Tritonesub
12-26-2005, 11:12 PM
as far as the fsmb thing... it would never fly ... US grads just dont want to go to places like montana, ohio and alot of the southern states.... these places are trying to get more docs... not send them away.

Until US med schools can increase admission and fill the gap .. it just wont happen.

Tritonesub
12-26-2005, 11:18 PM
why do you think texas lightened up on its residency laws. They want to see how these students perform and are severly lacking docs in the rural areas ... especially now with increasing hispanic population from across the border and katrina evacuees.

I interviewed at 7 places in TX ... one place offered me a prematch but i wanted to try my luck at IM. I had several of the programs check with the board and all of them said as a St. Chris grad i would be fine to do my residency there.

neilc
12-26-2005, 11:20 PM
as far as the fsmb thing... it would never fly ... US grads just dont want to go to places like montana, ohio and alot of the southern states.... these places are trying to get more docs... not send them away.

Until US med schools can increase admission and fill the gap .. it just wont happen.

well, i doubt this is the case in all states. i agree that certain states will always have a higher need for docs, and these specific states may (key word,may) be less likely to adopt higher standards.

but, even if a very few states make it more difficult for IMG's from certain schools to get a license, those affected schools are much more limited. examples are CA, TX and NY. imagine if you couldn't work or apply for residency in all of these states? that is a very large percentage of residency spots.

i can see your optimism, and what it is based on. but, for every positive assumption you make, there is an equally convincing negative alternative. the point being that we do not know, nor will we likely be good at guessing what may happen. the safest route is the established route. expecting laws to change for your benefit is the wrong expectation to have when choosing a med school. just look at NJ law, and st chris. they expected and hoped for a change in law that never took place. now the state is still a question mark.

neilc
12-26-2005, 11:23 PM
why do you think texas lightened up on its residency laws. They want to see how these students perform and are severly lacking docs in the rural areas ... especially now with increasing hispanic population from across the border and katrina evacuees.

I interviewed at 7 places in TX ... one place offered me a prematch but i wanted to try my luck at IM. I had several of the programs check with the board and all of them said as a St. Chris grad i would be fine to do my residency there.

again, a st chris grad was recently REJECTED for a training license in texas. this was after he/she was offered a position. so, the residency program is not the last word. i am unaware of any "easing" of laws in texas for residency. i know new mexico used to use the CA list, but i don't recall texas doing it. perhaps you have your states confused. getting a residency license in TX is relatively easy, and has been as long as i have heard about it. but, a perm license is a whole different story. and, when texas has already rejected one of your grads, i would truly hesitate to think of it as a sure thing.

neilc
12-26-2005, 11:24 PM
anyhow, this discussion is getting pretty circular. i personally choose to rely on the written law, as that is what most people live by. i admire your optimism, but would still recommend students avoid your school like the plague until the problems are resolved. best of luck with your residency search.

maximillian genossa
12-27-2005, 12:36 AM
This discussion is too good to ignore, the kind that I like, so I will join the party without invitation.

People that make a living out of loopholes will find that Texas law is fascinating. For my surprise, most people that come across this forum really believe that Texas is the end of the world for any IMG. Lets take a closer look at the law (and try to look less at rumors, hearsay, personal opinions, etc).

163.3. Licensure for Graduates of Acceptable Unapproved Foreign Medical Schools.
To be eligible for licensure, an applicant who is a graduate from a school outside the United States or Canada must:

(1) be 21 years of age;
(2) be of good professional character as defined under 163.1(10) of this title;
(3) have completed 60 semester hours of college courses as defined under 163.1(12) of this title;
(4) be a graduate of an acceptable unapproved medical school as defined under 163.1(2) of this title;
(5) have successfully completed a three-year training program of graduate medical training in the United States or Canada as defined under 163.1(15) of this title;
(6) submit evidence of passing an examination accepted by the board for licensure as defined under 163.1(9) of this title;
(7) pass the Texas Medical Jurisprudence Examination with a score of 75 or better within three attempts;
(9) possess a valid certificate issued by the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG);
(10) have the ability to communicate in the English language; and
(11) have supplied all additional information that the board may require concerning the applicant's medical school.

NOW SOME NEEDED DEFINITIONS:

(2) Acceptable unapproved medical school A school or college located outside the United States or Canada that:

(A) is substantially equivalent to a Texas medical school; and
(B) has not been disapproved by another state physician licensing agency unless the applicant can provide evidence that the disapproval was unfounded.

(2) Unique Documentation. The board may request documentation unique to an individual unapproved medical school and additional documentation as needed to verify completion of medical education that is substantially equivalent to a Texas medical school education. This may include but is not limited to:

(A) a copy of the applicant's ECFMG file;
(B) a copy of other states' licensing files;
(C) copies of the applicant's clinical clerkship evaluations; and
(D) a copy of the applicant's medical school file.

(3) Certificate of Registration. Each applicant must provide a copy of his or her certificate to practice in the country in which his or her medical school is located. If a certificate is unavailable, a letter submitted directly to this board from the body governing licensure of physicians in the country in which the school is located, will be accepted. The letter must state that the applicant has met all the requirements for licensure in the country in which the school is located. If an applicant is not licensed in the country of graduation due to a citizenship requirement, a letter attesting to this, submitted directly to this board, will be required.

Gentlemen, in law there is a hidden rule that says, he who made the law, made the loophole. I nother words nothing is written in stone.

Texas will not flat out deny you without DUE PROCESS, and as you can see, they have provisions that, if satisfied, provides a candidate with DUE PROCESS before they turn you down.

Notice how, in the case of medical schools outside the infamous list, which, by the way is outdated (as one boardmember admited over the phone) they emphasize....(8) be eligible for licensure in country of graduation as defined under 163.1(8) of this title;

and...

(11) have supplied all additional information that the board may require concerning the applicant's medical school.
also...

(A) is substantially equivalent to a Texas medical school; and
(B) has not been disapproved by another state physician licensing agency unless the applicant can provide evidence that the disapproval was unfounded.

Interesting, the aforementioned part, a school that is substantially equivalent toa Texas medical school means that the school has a basic sciences component of two years and a clinical sciences component of at least 80 weeks.

In other words, they DO evaluate candidates from unaproved schools on a case by case scenario, or on an individual basis, if such semantics are better.

There are a lot of myths out there, and my job is to debuke them, not add gas to the fire or simply be, as thet call it in Texas, a naysayer.

It just intrigues me how in these forums people discuss such things without reading the law or at least making reference to it appropiately.

Any questions?

Let me know by PM. If I don't know the answer I will research it. If I have to correct myself, so be it.

neilc
12-27-2005, 08:32 AM
well, then st chris would certainly have issues by being on a states disapproved list, and may have issues from the GMC as far as being eligible in country of licensure.

i am sure you can nit pick around many laws and find loopholes. if you have the time and money to do such, you may even get through the loophole. however, it would be pretty stupid to go to a med school that required this sort of action in order to work.

empathy
12-27-2005, 09:18 AM
St. Chris exists in England thanks to a loophole.

Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

[email protected] ([email protected])




well, then st chris would certainly have issues by being on a states disapproved list, and may have issues from the GMC as far as being eligible in country of licensure.

i am sure you can nit pick around many laws and find loopholes. if you have the time and money to do such, you may even get through the loophole. however, it would be pretty stupid to go to a med school that required this sort of action in order to work.

Miklos
12-27-2005, 10:37 AM
well, then st chris would certainly have issues by being on a states disapproved list, and may have issues from the GMC as far as being eligible in country of licensure.

i am sure you can nit pick around many laws and find loopholes. if you have the time and money to do such, you may even get through the loophole. however, it would be pretty stupid to go to a med school that required this sort of action in order to work.
Actually,an SC grad would need to prove eligibility for licensure (and/or proof that his/her citizenship prevents licensure) in Senegal.

That could be a problem.

neilc
12-27-2005, 10:48 AM
i saw the wording in the tx licensure as "country of graduation", which i suppose could mean either UK or Senegal, depending on interpretation. i agree that senegal is the more likely candidate

bts4202
12-27-2005, 11:00 AM
Actually,an SC grad would need to prove eligibility for licensure (and/or proof that his/her citizenship prevents licensure) in Senegal.

That could be a problem.

That is part of what the GMC is looking at, how legitimate everything is in Senegal. When their decision is made, we will have lots of answers.

TAFKA
12-27-2005, 11:59 AM
edited to remove text

empathy
12-27-2005, 12:06 PM
He who lives in glass houses.............. Remember Ross has never advertised students could get licensed in 47 states.

maximillian genossa
12-27-2005, 12:16 PM
Stupid or not, it is a matter of opinions, just use what law says for your advantage. Bear in mind, there are many folks out there that for x or y reasons, maybe out of stupidity, maybe becuase it was their country of residence, end up in a school that may not be in a list of "approved" schools and that is why the laws have these loopholes so everyone can have DUE PROCESS.

Capicse???





well, then st chris would certainly have issues by being on a states disapproved list, and may have issues from the GMC as far as being eligible in country of licensure.

i am sure you can nit pick around many laws and find loopholes. if you have the time and money to do such, you may even get through the loophole. however, it would be pretty stupid to go to a med school that required this sort of action in order to work.

maximillian genossa
12-27-2005, 12:26 PM
i saw the wording in the tx licensure as "country of graduation", which i suppose could mean either UK or Senegal, depending on interpretation. i agree that senegal is the more likely candidate

Country of graduation means that, country of graduation. Simple interpretation Neil. Example, if you studied in Mexico, that you be elegible to get a license in Mexico, Antigua, Colombia, Senegal, China, India...etc, wherever you went to school.

There are cases of foreing schools that their students are NOT elegible to get a license in that particular country. The best example, St. Lucia. They have Spartan and Collge of Medicine and Health Sciences, and these folks CANNOT practice in St. Lucia, their government doesn't want to have anything to do with them. These are the kind of people that REALLY have a big problem.

Logically speaking, if you cannot get a license in the country you studied (besides citienship requirements) then you have a BIG problem justifying this to anyone else.

neilc
12-27-2005, 12:38 PM
well, i would imagine that this is a huge problem for st chris. they need to speak french to be licensed in senegal. so, i would imagine not many qualify for licensure there, unless french is now a course requirement of st chris.

OLDPRO
12-27-2005, 12:47 PM
He who lives in glass houses.............. Remember Ross has never advertised students could get licensed in 47 states.

No Just all 50 states ;) As they Advertise:


There are only four states in the U.S. (California, Florida, New Jersey, and New York), that have a process to evaluate, accredit and approve an international medical school's academic program for the purpose of either licensing its graduates and/or clinical and residency training in those states. Ross University is one of only a few international medical schools that received state approvals from all four.

empathy
12-27-2005, 12:56 PM
edit.............v1


No Just all 50 states ;) As they Advertise:

empathy
12-27-2005, 01:04 PM
St. Chris has been known to rent a room at the UN in NY to hold a graduation. Outside of that they rent Catholic Churches in England. Odd when you factor in the fact that they are an Islamic College.

http://www.mdparadise.com/pictures5.htm


i saw the wording in the tx licensure as "country of graduation", which i suppose could mean either UK or Senegal, depending on interpretation. i agree that senegal is the more likely candidate

bts4202
12-27-2005, 01:47 PM
well, i would imagine that this is a huge problem for st chris. they need to speak french to be licensed in senegal. so, i would imagine not many qualify for licensure there, unless french is now a course requirement of st chris.

There is no french language fluency test in senegal. There is no law or rule that requires fluency in french to practice. The licnesing exam is in french, so you have to be able to understand the test to pass it, but there is no formal requirement like there is in the US (for english). So, any graduate of st chris is still completely eligible so long as they are able to pass the licensing test, just like everywhere else. The student on the Luton campus and the Senegal campus have exactley the same rights and privledges and, in fact, can transfer between campuses if they choose without inturruption of their education. I know what you are trying to say, but you are stretching it pretty far.

BTW, I did hear a while ago (years ago) that they were creating an english version of the licensing exam in Senegal to make it easier for foriegn docs to come over. Wheither it happened or not, I am not sure.

neilc
12-27-2005, 01:55 PM
There is no french language fluency test in senegal. There is no law or rule that requires fluency in french to practice. The licnesing exam is in french, so you have to be able to understand the test to pass it, but there is no formal requirement like there is in the US (for english). So, any graduate of st chris is still completely eligible so long as they are able to pass the licensing test, just like everywhere else. The student on the Luton campus and the Senegal campus have exactley the same rights and privledges and, in fact, can transfer between campuses if they choose without inturruption of their education. I know what you are trying to say, but you are stretching it pretty far.

BTW, I did hear a while ago (years ago) that they were creating an english version of the licensing exam in Senegal to make it easier for foriegn docs to come over. Wheither it happened or not, I am not sure.
if that is the case, then great. i am not trying to "strech" anyting", and if i am wrong, no problem admitting it. i am just encouraging people to think of all of the potential pitfalls, and to verify them.

my main points are that 1) by doing basic science completely in the UK, it is not a huge leap to make to consider that a "country of graduation". there are really no precedents set when a school operates outside of country of charter, so there is likely some room for interpretation here. (and i am not saying that the country graduation ceremonies are held in could be thought of as country of graduation). and 2) there is the potential issue with senegal (which bts has appreared to clear up).

while it may not be important to you, or you may be confident of outcomes, i still think these are important considerations.

empathy
12-27-2005, 02:06 PM
The biggest problem is students are attending a college that is not recognized as a degree course provider and Senegal has denied Luton's degree granting authority. Hopefully, this has been resolved but we are still left with the missing WHO years 1998 - 2000.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4410020.stm

bts4202
12-27-2005, 02:14 PM
The biggest problem is students are attending a college that is not recognized as a degree course provider and Senegal has denied Luton's degree granting authority.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

Once again, that is what the GMC is investigating. We will see very shortly what their investigation found. The school maintains that those statements are completely erroneous.

Speedracer
12-27-2005, 02:54 PM
We all heard that there is a Senegal campus, but are there any students? If there are, just how many are there?

From what I gather, it's just a building....

Also, what will happen to the clinical students in the U.S.? Any of them affected by this GMC investigation? Is it just a matter of time, before they get pulled out from the U.S. rotations, just like the ones in UK?

What are the students doing about all this? Will there be a mass exodus out of St. Chris? If so, will any of other Carib schools accept their credits?

smoohead
12-27-2005, 03:43 PM
:-spinning I feel like I'm reading the same thing over and over and over and over and over again!! *falls over*

bts4202
12-27-2005, 03:59 PM
:-spinning I feel like I'm reading the same thing over and over and over and over and over again!! *falls over*

OMG, ure right, it is like a broken record! Read previous posts for teh answers to above questions.

CorporateRaider
12-27-2005, 05:49 PM
Most people go there because they either didnt or are afraid they wont get into a U.S. school. Then when choosing between living in a 3rd world country you can pay your bills over the net.... essentially you can get almost touch a patient until they get into residency.

.....any other questions? thoughts?


Tritonsub: Thanks for the reply.

Actually I was wondering, how does/did one sit at the table and make the choice?

I already know most were/might have been rejected by US medical schools, but I still don't know...........what clicks...................for a student to say, ok, I am off to "xxxxxxxxxxxxx" school of medicine.

Tritonesub
12-27-2005, 07:54 PM
Well for me it was the first off-shore school i tried and i got into. The only other ones i knew of at the time were Ross, St. George and some in mexico.







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