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iuhsms4
12-25-2005, 03:44 PM
I hope this sparks new discussion in this forum and silences the assumptions and unfounded statements.

Steve
IUHS MS4

Carmen
12-27-2005, 05:14 PM
Hi Steve,

The IUHS grad who is licensed did not do his pre-clinical on-line. He was a transfer student. As well, IUHS does not display that the pre-clinical was on-line on their transcripts. Possibly a few grads could slip by, but I fear there will be trouble when it becomes known.

Some IUHS students do find a mentor and have exposure to hospitals, lab work, etc., but the vast majority of students have never done any lab work, dissected cadavers, etc. This school is lacking and I know that you want to defend it because you will be a grad soon.

I sincerely wish you good luck, but please don't try to defend this sham of a school!

Carmen

Ming
12-29-2005, 08:15 AM
Hi Steve,

This issue has been around without any absolute conclusions. That is due to the fact that this issue is not front and centre with any problems at the moment. Just imagine if you will, the media frenzy when the first on-line student finds themselves in litigation, and I do expect it to happen for many reasons.

If you contact EACH AND EVERY STATE, ask them the question at hand, you will discover they will NOT license any student who has done on-line basic sciences. As Carmen states, the transcript does not display this fact. This will soon change as there are many states (to whom I have spoken directly) that will be asking for this information. When that happens, it will affect every previous student whose degree will then be in question. This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of the 50 states that I contacted when I was interested in this medical school.

You may well move along in the system that is not watching for this very closely at the moment. I am sorry to hear you that you have spent your time in on-line medicine rather than have applied to a regular local medical school.

This school is continuing because of the large population of people who desperately wish to enter medical school, and who do not have the educational credentials to compete with regular admission criteria.

As Carmen states, the school is a sham. Many students are in too deep, past the point of no return and basically hoping it works out for them. It might work out for them until the medical establishment turns its eye to the issue in a serious manner.

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 11:39 AM
I truly understand your point and your bias against online basic sciences. I have previously stated here that done responsibly it is totally doable. In the case of IUHS it seens it is not been done responsibly, at prima facie.

As far as I know, there are no written rule or law that demands any school from explicitly stating in a school transcript that a program was completed onsite or online, ask any lawyer. Many reputable US academic programs have online components and the transcript does not reflect that either, of course not in medicine. As you point out, that might change in the future. I have spoken with several medical boards, and some of them have told me that they really look at their boards exams and do not pay much attention how they completed the basic sciences portion. We can discuss via PM which board said that, not here. Some have told me what they have told you, so we are , more or less on the same page.

Right now, when it is time for licensure, a medical board can simply ask a student for proof of residency at the site where he or she alleges completion of basic sciences, passport, visas, etc. No rocket sciences there.

Now, just to ask you the same question I asked Azskeptic and it was inetresting to notice how the question was dodged, and if you simply do not want to answer it, just say so, but try to be as honest as possible.

Hypothetically speaking, if a student presents to a board, passing USMLE Steps I, II, and III, excellent clinical sciences letters of recommendations, and excellent markings on his clinical studies, has completed a residency training in which he or she have been exposed to direct patient contact and completed their residency with excellent remarks, BUT the only sin the student committed was to complete his or her basic sciences online, will that make him a worse physician than one from a traditional basic sciences curriculum and ended up with the exact same academic performance?

How do you evaluate performance?

Just let me know.

As I said before, I am an advocate for technological change, technology and times change, so does medical education, it is not a sacred cow. However, I do understand it has to be done RESPONSIBLY.

Respectfully,

Maximillian Genossa














Hi Steve,

This issue has been around without any absolute conclusions. That is due to the fact that this issue is not front and centre with any problems at the moment. Just imagine if you will, the media frenzy when the first on-line student finds themselves in litigation, and I do expect it to happen for many reasons.

If you contact EACH AND EVERY STATE, ask them the question at hand, you will discover they will NOT license any student who has done on-line basic sciences. As Carmen states, the transcript does not display this fact. This will soon change as there are many states (to whom I have spoken directly) that will be asking for this information. When that happens, it will affect every previous student whose degree will then be in question. This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of the 50 states that I contacted when I was interested in this medical school.

You may well move along in the system that is not watching for this very closely at the moment. I am sorry to hear you that you have spent your time in on-line medicine rather than have applied to a regular local medical school.

This school is continuing because of the large population of people who desperately wish to enter medical school, and who do not have the educational credentials to compete with regular admission criteria.

As Carmen states, the school is a sham. Many students are in too deep, past the point of no return and basically hoping it works out for them. It might work out for them until the medical establishment turns its eye to the issue in a serious manner.

prof
12-29-2005, 02:08 PM
This is such an interesting topic, as we as American educators are now dealing significantly with how to get the basic and clinical didactic material to the students via technology. The latest I heard last week was that we should now be considering "podcasting", so that our material can be seen by the students and residents anywhere they are on "ipods". With the increase in Allied Health students, especially the physical therapy doctors to be (yes they get doctorates now too), and the rapid increase in nursing students (big nursing shortage in country), lecture rooms are at an all time premium. Nobody wants to build new lecture rooms, because they all want to build new laboratory space for researchers, and specialized outpatient/daysurgery clinics. Tight budgets are not replacing the retiring basic science professors, unless the new hires are fully funded researchers (that don't want to teach). Thus technology will be hitting us much faster than many of us thought. And of course as the lectures are becoming webbased, now all the involved professors want intellectual rights to any use of them. Some American schools are working hard to put out excellent approved web based series so that they can market them to other schools. You can see how fast this is moving in CME training. The basic science professors see this as a way to be entrepreneurial and bring dollars into their departments, so they can have less teaching duties and get more NIH research grants which has become the golden goose for all US medical schools now. State budget constraints and the high expense of training medical students at state institutions without much tuition reimbursement will create many novel education models in the next few years. The impending doctor shortage will likely force some states to start new medical schools, increase class size, or bring back the 3 year MD.

anatomy_guy
12-29-2005, 02:28 PM
I truly understand your point and your bias against online basic sciences. I have previously stated here that done responsibly it is totally doable. In the case of IUHS it seens it is not been done responsibly, at prima facie.

As far as I know, there are no written rule or law that demands any school from explicitly stating in a school transcript that a program was completed onsite or online, ask any lawyer. Many reputable US academic programs have online components and the transcript does not reflect that either, of course not in medicine. As you point out, that might change in the future. I have spoken with several medical boards, and some of them have told me that they really look at their boards exams and do not pay much attention how they completed the basic sciences portion. We can discuss via PM which board said that, not here. Some have told me what they have told you, so we are , more or less on the same page.

Right now, when it is time for licensure, a medical board can simply ask a student for proof of residency at the site where he or she alleges completion of basic sciences, passport, visas, etc. No rocket sciences there.

Now, just to ask you the same question I asked Azskeptic and it was inetresting to notice how the question was dodged, and if you simply do not want to answer it, just say so, but try to be as honest as possible.

Hypothetically speaking, if a student presents to a board, passing USMLE Steps I, II, and III, excellent clinical sciences letters of recommendations, and excellent markings on his clinical studies, has completed a residency training in which he or she have been exposed to direct patient contact and completed their residency with excellent remarks, BUT the only sin the student committed was to complete his or her basic sciences online, will that make him a worse physician than one from a traditional basic sciences curriculum and ended up with the exact same academic performance?

How do you evaluate performance?

Just let me know.

As I said before, I am an advocate for technological change, technology and times change, so does medical education, it is not a sacred cow. However, I do understand it has to be done RESPONSIBLY.

Respectfully,

Maximillian Genossa

As a medical faculty member involved in using educational technology or the internet in education, I have to point out that there are some pitfalls and good uses of the internet in basic sciences for the first 2 years. Ron Harden at the Centre for Medical Education, University of Dundee in Scotland is trying to put together IVIMEDS, which is an internet version of medical education. He has already established a curriculum, which is not difficult given the standardization of medical education in the UK and elsewhere. Technically, the knowledge required can be acquired whether by lecture, problem based learning or group study or systems or regional based learning or independent self learning. However, in anatomy and pathology, one needs to see the human cadaver or the expanse of tumours and disease to gain an understanding of the extent of disease or the relationship of anatomical structures so one can build a 3D picture of the human body. It is really a matter of scale and relationships of anatomical structures before one truly understands anatomy. Pathology is not just what is found in Robbins et al but also the experiences and folklore you learn from academic and clinical pathologists. Seeing the pathological specimen very often helps you understand what the extent of disease can be and why it appears as it does in clinical presentation. I have taught medical, dental, nursing and occupational therapy students anatomy and physiology and the one aspect that they have remarked about upon seeing the anatomical specimens and some of the pathology is that they had a realistic scale and understanding about what the anatomical structures or pathology actually was and how they are related 3D. Also, lacking through the internet version of basic sciences medical education is how to do history, physical examination, diagnosis and prognosis or the various aspects of a medical interview. What philosophy of medicine is being taught? If it is patient centered, you need to see it in action and unfortunately, the internet does not and can not really convey this aspect very well. Having an independent study method where one links with a physician would be good but you actually need to link with many physicians so students can take the good aspects of these physicians and dispose of the bad habits they see in them. If you train with only one physician, you only see one way of doing the medical interview or HPE and thus you do not develop your own methods. Let me side track, I was a soccer referee who reached the national or professional levels for a few years. I learned my craft from working with many excellent, top notch or top level referees and assistant referees. I used some of the things, such as player management or awarding a penalty kick without being hassled or questioned, I saw from these referees because they worked for me but I had to discard some of the other techniques because they did not work for my personality or myself in general. The same is true in medical communications. You will be given a method for delivering bad news such as a cancer diagnosis or a diagnosis of terminal disease to patients, however, you will need to develop your own method that works with a variety of patients for yourself. If you are uncomfortable with handling this situation, patients will pick up on this and be uncomfortable as well and then the situation can totally breakdown with no resolution. This is not a good outcome for anyone. Some physicians in training develop a thick skin like "House" on TV and think this is good--personally I think "House's" manner stinks as he is a self absorbed a--hole and gives physicians a bad reputation. Others try having a caring attitude such as "****" on ER. But TV aside, you, the individual physician in training, need to develop your own style. The internet is not a place to do this nor is having a single mentor a good approach either. This is why stand alone institutional medical schools associated with a particular area are important because it is the variety and not the singleness of one's approach that adds to the educational experience. IUHS program really needs to be more in line with IVIMEDS and use many mentors and be properly monitored and administered. This takes time, effort and money, but in the long run can contribute greatly to the future of medical education if done right!!:)

Carmen
12-29-2005, 02:39 PM
I agree with all of you regarding some merits to distance education. Taking pathology on-line at Harvard is fine, but doing your entire pre-clinical education without labs, hospital experience, patient interaction, simulated patient exams, etc. is deficient.

Ming is correct in what all medical licensing facilities will tell you. If you call and say "I attend Harvard and took Pathology on-line", they will probably welcome you. But if you state "I attend IUHS and I stayed home and worked while I did my medical education at night without ever attending the island of St. Kitts or mentoring in a hospital", they will tell you to stay away.

The issue of IUHS is much bigger than simply on-line education. Students are sent to write the USMLE exams without ever meeting their professors, Registrar and other students. I think this is a little scary. A reputable medical school can incorporate on-line very well, but a school that has only 4 or 5 professors teaching, it is impossible to gain a proper education.


Carmen

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 03:51 PM
"IUHS program really needs to be more in line with IVIMEDS and use many mentors and be properly monitored and administered. This takes time, effort and money, but in the long run can contribute greatly to the future of medical education if done right!!'

I couldn't agree more with you and that is why I emphasize the phrase ..DONE RESPONSIBLY.

Thanks for your valuable input.







As a medical faculty member involved in using educational technology or the internet in education, I have to point out that there are some pitfalls and good uses of the internet in basic sciences for the first 2 years. Ron Harden at the Centre for Medical Education, University of Dundee in Scotland is trying to put together IVIMEDS, which is an internet version of medical education. He has already established a curriculum, which is not difficult given the standardization of medical education in the UK and elsewhere. Technically, the knowledge required can be acquired whether by lecture, problem based learning or group study or systems or regional based learning or independent self learning. However, in anatomy and pathology, one needs to see the human cadaver or the expanse of tumours and disease to gain an understanding of the extent of disease or the relationship of anatomical structures so one can build a 3D picture of the human body. It is really a matter of scale and relationships of anatomical structures before one truly understands anatomy. Pathology is not just what is found in Robbins et al but also the experiences and folklore you learn from academic and clinical pathologists. Seeing the pathological specimen very often helps you understand what the extent of disease can be and why it appears as it does in clinical presentation. I have taught medical, dental, nursing and occupational therapy students anatomy and physiology and the one aspect that they have remarked about upon seeing the anatomical specimens and some of the pathology is that they had a realistic scale and understanding about what the anatomical structures or pathology actually was and how they are related 3D. Also, lacking through the internet version of basic sciences medical education is how to do history, physical examination, diagnosis and prognosis or the various aspects of a medical interview. What philosophy of medicine is being taught? If it is patient centered, you need to see it in action and unfortunately, the internet does not and can not really convey this aspect very well. Having an independent study method where one links with a physician would be good but you actually need to link with many physicians so students can take the good aspects of these physicians and dispose of the bad habits they see in them. If you train with only one physician, you only see one way of doing the medical interview or HPE and thus you do not develop your own methods. Let me side track, I was a soccer referee who reached the national or professional levels for a few years. I learned my craft from working with many excellent, top notch or top level referees and assistant referees. I used some of the things, such as player management or awarding a penalty kick without being hassled or questioned, I saw from these referees because they worked for me but I had to discard some of the other techniques because they did not work for my personality or myself in general. The same is true in medical communications. You will be given a method for delivering bad news such as a cancer diagnosis or a diagnosis of terminal disease to patients, however, you will need to develop your own method that works with a variety of patients for yourself. If you are uncomfortable with handling this situation, patients will pick up on this and be uncomfortable as well and then the situation can totally breakdown with no resolution. This is not a good outcome for anyone. Some physicians in training develop a thick skin like "House" on TV and think this is good--personally I think "House's" manner stinks as he is a self absorbed a--hole and gives physicians a bad reputation. Others try having a caring attitude such as "****" on ER. But TV aside, you, the individual physician in training, need to develop your own style. The internet is not a place to do this nor is having a single mentor a good approach either. This is why stand alone institutional medical schools associated with a particular area are important because it is the variety and not the singleness of one's approach that adds to the educational experience. IUHS program really needs to be more in line with IVIMEDS and use many mentors and be properly monitored and administered. This takes time, effort and money, but in the long run can contribute greatly to the future of medical education if done right!!:)

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 03:57 PM
You hit the nail on the head..."State budget constraints and the high expense of training medical students at state institutions without much tuition reimbursement will create many novel education models in the next few years."

The discussion is moving the way I anticipated. Your input is valuable and I appreciate it.

Thanks

Max




This is such an interesting topic, as we as American educators are now dealing significantly with how to get the basic and clinical didactic material to the students via technology. The latest I heard last week was that we should now be considering "podcasting", so that our material can be seen by the students and residents anywhere they are on "ipods". With the increase in Allied Health students, especially the physical therapy doctors to be (yes they get doctorates now too), and the rapid increase in nursing students (big nursing shortage in country), lecture rooms are at an all time premium. Nobody wants to build new lecture rooms, because they all want to build new laboratory space for researchers, and specialized outpatient/daysurgery clinics. Tight budgets are not replacing the retiring basic science professors, unless the new hires are fully funded researchers (that don't want to teach). Thus technology will be hitting us much faster than many of us thought. And of course as the lectures are becoming webbased, now all the involved professors want intellectual rights to any use of them. Some American schools are working hard to put out excellent approved web based series so that they can market them to other schools. You can see how fast this is moving in CME training. The basic science professors see this as a way to be entrepreneurial and bring dollars into their departments, so they can have less teaching duties and get more NIH research grants which has become the golden goose for all US medical schools now. State budget constraints and the high expense of training medical students at state institutions without much tuition reimbursement will create many novel education models in the next few years. The impending doctor shortage will likely force some states to start new medical schools, increase class size, or bring back the 3 year MD.

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 04:05 PM
I truly understand your concerns and I have to reaffirm that I am not defending IUHS practices, I am simply advocating for technological advances in the teaching of basic sciences for the 21st century and I see online basic sciences education as an excellent example on a curriculum that can be improved and delivered using cyberspace with certain limitations, like anatomy guy and prof point out. I have always emphasized and will emphasize done responsibly and I do not believe IUHS is doing it responsibly, I have said that before.

Now, my question remains unanswered about the case I presented, here it is again to stimulate the discussion further...if a student presents to a board, passing USMLE Steps I, II, and III, excellent clinical sciences letters of recommendations, and excellent markings on his clinical studies, has completed a residency training in which he or she have been exposed to direct patient contact and completed their residency with excellent remarks, BUT the only sin the student committed was to complete his or her basic sciences online, will that make him a worse physician than one from a traditional basic sciences curriculum and ended up with the exact same academic performance? How do we measure performance?





I agree with all of you regarding some merits to distance education. Taking pathology on-line at Harvard is fine, but doing your entire pre-clinical education without labs, hospital experience, patient interaction, simulated patient exams, etc. is deficient.

Ming is correct in what all medical licensing facilities will tell you. If you call and say "I attend Harvard and took Pathology on-line", they will probably welcome you. But if you state "I attend IUHS and I stayed home and worked while I did my medical education at night without ever attending the island of St. Kitts or mentoring in a hospital", they will tell you to stay away.

The issue of IUHS is much bigger than simply on-line education. Students are sent to write the USMLE exams without ever meeting their professors, Registrar and other students. I think this is a little scary. A reputable medical school can incorporate on-line very well, but a school that has only 4 or 5 professors teaching, it is impossible to gain a proper education.


Carmen

diogenes
12-29-2005, 07:39 PM
..........
Now, my question remains unanswered about the case I presented, here it is again to stimulate the discussion further...if a student presents to a board, passing USMLE Steps I, II, and III, excellent clinical sciences letters of recommendations, and excellent markings on his clinical studies, has completed a residency training in which he or she have been exposed to direct patient contact and completed their residency with excellent remarks, BUT the only sin the student committed was to complete his or her basic sciences online, will that make him a worse physician than one from a traditional basic sciences curriculum and ended up with the exact same academic performance? How do we measure performance? In answer to your question, I cannot see why your exemplary distance graduate should be penalized in any way.
There are critics who will say that a lack of exposure to certain elements of the traditional course will show eventually: the distance graduate will mess up sooner or later. For those who consider that distance learning in medicine is akin to licensing paedophilia or cannibalism there will never be a convincing retort to that assertion.
However, the opponents of distance learning need to ask themselves how it is that a licensing exam such as USMLE or PLAB is a satisfactory test of fitness-to-practise for one group of students and not for another.
If there are aspects of performance which are not tested in the licensing exams these should be included immediately. A review of licensing might also expose some deficiencies in the education of campus students!
I am also a fan of IVIMEDS and believe they have a workable vision of the future. I have never been able to understand what advantage performing a titration very badly confers on a future jobbing doctor. Much of the traditional basic sciences course is not a preparation for workaday medical practice but rather a harking back to a now distant era when we all did our own assays without benefit of specialist staff and equipment. For doctors who wish to engage in biomedical research or take their microscope to the most obscure corners of the globe there are opportunities to learn lab techniques outside of the core medical curriculum.
USUAL DISCLAIMER: none of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of that excuse for a medical school and educational (sic) establishment IUHS.

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 08:13 PM
As for your assessment, ..." Much of the traditional basic sciences course is not a preparation for workaday medical practice but rather a harking back to a now distant era when we all did our own assays without benefit of specialist staff and equipment. " That is one of the things that needs to be changed in this era. You well point out that 'A review of licensing might also expose some deficiencies in the education of campus students!" as it happens on a day to day basis.

The disclaimer is excellent, I will use it.







In answer to your question, I cannot see why your exemplary distance graduate should be penalized in any way.
There are critics who will say that a lack of exposure to certain elements of the traditional course will show eventually: the distance graduate will mess up sooner or later. For those who consider that distance learning in medicine is akin to licensing paedophilia or cannibalism there will never be a convincing retort to that assertion.
However, the opponents of distance learning need to ask themselves how it is that a licensing exam such as USMLE or PLAB is a satisfactory test of fitness-to-practise for one group of students and not for another.
If there are aspects of performance which are not tested in the licensing exams these should be included immediately. A review of licensing might also expose some deficiencies in the education of campus students!
I am also a fan of IVIMEDS and believe they have a workable vision of the future. I have never been able to understand what advantage performing a titration very badly confers on a future jobbing doctor. Much of the traditional basic sciences course is not a preparation for workaday medical practice but rather a harking back to a now distant era when we all did our own assays without benefit of specialist staff and equipment. For doctors who wish to engage in biomedical research or take their microscope to the most obscure corners of the globe there are opportunities to learn lab techniques outside of the core medical curriculum.
USUAL DISCLAIMER: none of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of that excuse for a medical school and educational (sic) establishment IUHS.

neilc
12-29-2005, 08:19 PM
two points:

1) many state boards have inserted the wording "physical attendance" for IMG licensure applicants, when noting the requirements for basic science years. i have read it several times, and this will certainly be a stumbling block. this wording is not likely present in the section for US grads. remember, the licensing requirements ARE different in nearly every case for LCME grads vs IMGs. so, a harvard grad with online education will likely not have a problem, as the schooling is in accordance with LCME. but, non-lcme schools will have a totally different set of requirements.

2) as far as the excellent student described above...well, certainly and excellent student is an excellent student, and will likely make an excellent doctor. but, the problem is going to be a matter of defining "excellent", and a matter of the time and money needed to evaluate every single person individually. the state boards have little incentive to do this. if they feel that on-line international medical education is too risky to approve, they will disapprove all of them. it is simply easier to say "no", and there is little downside to this. they may lose a doctor or two that would be great, but they would also close the door on a lot of dodgy ones that may slip through. and, imagine the field day the press would have with something like this, at the first malpractice case. no medical board wants to face those kind of questions.

so, while technology may well be the future of medical education, it will likely be developed and implemented at the leading US universities well before it becomes accepted as a legitimate international alternative. as it stands now, i would be very surprised if an online degree was recognized in more than a few small, desperate states.

Ming
12-29-2005, 08:25 PM
dear genossa,

thanks for the intelligent response. If we approach the simple question of on-line education that is one issue. If we approach the question of IUHS's on-line education that is certainly another issue.

Is on-line medical education feasible? Maybe. At the moment, I am not entirely certain I would even accept the grading processes of many of the schools. Many of them make up their rules/regulations as they go along. Even the students have had questions about their own examination processes. This is not a small issue by the way. Do I think IUHS has a good educational process and would I trust their grading? No, to both of these.

You are correct about the transcript thing, however, from what the state boards are telling me, that will change. The medical establishment is old and traditional. Rightly so for many reasons. They move slowly and are resistent to change. Take a look at the litigation and then let's think about discussing this again. If traditional processes are running into the problems they are, imagine the difficulty of a "maverick" establishment trying to defend themselves when they run into problems. They WILL NOT have the backing of anyone.

Are there other people out there who might be able to pass the exams and make decent physicians? Logic and numbers dictate the answer has to be yes. That being said, if my health or the health of my children is going to be in someone's elses hands, I would certainly not choose anyone from the maverick establishment.

The other on-line regular medical schools are not actually on-line. Many of the regular medical schools have their lectures archived and students are allowed to occasionally attend these if certain lectures conflict with other schedules or they cannot attend for whatever reason. These on-line lectures by the way are apparently not available outside the campus. These lectures are attended on-campus university computers, at least that what Harvard told me about theirs. It is not the intention of regular medical schools to allow their students to attend basic sciences on-line.

Regular medical schools also try to select students who have been intensively interviewed in an effort to find more than just academic skills. This is not done in the off-shore schools and it appears from the selection process at IUHS, they certainly are only interested in the student meeting the monthly payment.

I don't think any of us on the forum will have the answer to bridging the gap between the old traditional medical establishment and the possibilities of new technology. However, when we become aware of some schools that have little intention of producing the best that can be, that are "for profit" and are only interested in their bottom line, that are functioning like IUHS, the question may be redundant, but what is our societal duty?

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 08:31 PM
They must be desperate.

That aside, thanks for your contribution, it will be ideal if any IUHS administrator will take a look at this thread and learn something from it, well not just learn something from it but apply it as well.

Thanks Ming!



dear genossa,

thanks for the intelligent response. If we approach the simple question of on-line education that is one issue. If we approach the question of IUHS's on-line education that is certainly another issue.

Is on-line medical education feasible? Maybe. At the moment, I am not entirely certain I would even accept the grading processes of many of the schools. Many of them make up their rules/regulations as they go along. Even the students have had questions about their own examination processes. This is not a small issue by the way. Do I think IUHS has a good educational process and would I trust their grading? No, to both of these.

You are correct about the transcript thing, however, from what the state boards are telling me, that will change. The medical establishment is old and traditional. Rightly so for many reasons. They move slowly and are resistent to change. Take a look at the litigation and then let's think about discussing this again. If traditional processes are running into the problems they are, imagine the difficulty of a "maverick" establishment trying to defend themselves when they run into problems. They WILL NOT have the backing of anyone.

Are there other people out there who might be able to pass the exams and make decent physicians? Logic and numbers dictate the answer has to be yes. That being said, if my health or the health of my children is going to be in someone's elses hands, I would certainly not choose anyone from the maverick establishment.

The other on-line regular medical schools are not actually on-line. Many of the regular medical schools have their lectures archived and students are allowed to occasionally attend these if certain lectures conflict with other schedules or they cannot attend for whatever reason. These on-line lectures by the way are apparently not available outside the campus. These lectures are attended on-campus university computers, at least that what Harvard told me about theirs. It is not the intention of regular medical schools to allow their students to attend basic sciences on-line.

Regular medical schools also try to select students who have been intensively interviewed in an effort to find more than just academic skills. This is not done in the off-shore schools and it appears from the selection process at IUHS, they certainly are only interested in the student meeting the monthly payment.

I don't think any of us on the forum will have the answer to bridging the gap between the old traditional medical establishment and the possibilities of new technology. However, when we become aware of some schools that have little intention of producing the best that can be, that are "for profit" and are only interested in their bottom line, that are functioning like IUHS, the question may be redundant, but what is our societal duty?

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 08:40 PM
...for your contribution. It seems that Australia took the lead in this aspect for sometime now, after they developed their problem based learning system, which by the way, they are more than happy to license of a fee, Univeristy of Sydney I beleive it is.

Remember, it is not an online degree this is a misleading concept, it is a degree with a basic sciences component done online, or at least part of it. I do not think that it is correct to address this as "online degree" because the clinical sciences component is done at hospitals and the normal board examination process as well as clinical evaluations is being done as well.

DISCLAIMER: none of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of IUHS.







two points:

1) many state boards have inserted the wording "physical attendance" for IMG licensure applicants, when noting the requirements for basic science years. i have read it several times, and this will certainly be a stumbling block. this wording is not likely present in the section for US grads. remember, the licensing requirements ARE different in nearly every case for LCME grads vs IMGs. so, a harvard grad with online education will likely not have a problem, as the schooling is in accordance with LCME. but, non-lcme schools will have a totally different set of requirements.

2) as far as the excellent student described above...well, certainly and excellent student is an excellent student, and will likely make an excellent doctor. but, the problem is going to be a matter of defining "excellent", and a matter of the time and money needed to evaluate every single person individually. the state boards have little incentive to do this. if they feel that on-line international medical education is too risky to approve, they will disapprove all of them. it is simply easier to say "no", and there is little downside to this. they may lose a doctor or two that would be great, but they would also close the door on a lot of dodgy ones that may slip through. and, imagine the field day the press would have with something like this, at the first malpractice case. no medical board wants to face those kind of questions.

so, while technology may well be the future of medical education, it will likely be developed and implemented at the leading US universities well before it becomes accepted as a legitimate international alternative. as it stands now, i would be very surprised if an online degree was recognized in more than a few small, desperate states.

neilc
12-29-2005, 09:34 PM
i used the term "online degree" to specifically refer to basic science as the online portion. i am unaware of anybody trying to do clinical science online as well, though. but, if there is a better term, i am happy to use it.

anatomy_guy
12-29-2005, 09:47 PM
i used the term "online degree" to specifically refer to basic science as the online portion. i am unaware of anybody trying to do clinical science online as well, though. but, if there is a better term, i am happy to use it.
Better terminology for online degree when a degree may not be truly online is the use of instructional technology or e-learning for portions that are on line. I have dealt with this aspect on numerous occasions. I was even involved in setting up e-learning for a new medical school. E-learning is not a bad educational tool if done appropriately and with student interaction at the maximum level! E-learning encourages maximum student interaction whether intended or not. Those that do not avail themselves of the e-learning opportunities will miss out tremendously and loose out on exams or other summative assessment. E-learning requires a certain number and level of participants to be successful. However I will use the disclaimer with regards to IUHS.;)

USUAL DISCLAIMER: None of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of IUHS.

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 09:48 PM
i used the term "online degree" to specifically refer to basic science as the online portion. i am unaware of anybody trying to do clinical science online as well, though. but, if there is a better term, i am happy to use it.

I personally use online basic science component. Believe me, there are people out there who read "online degree" and think the entire thing is done online, far from the truth.

Thanks Neil

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 09:51 PM
That is an excellent terminology. We all seem to agree on the disclaimer, we thank Diogenes for that one.


Better terminology for online degree when a degree may not be truly online is the use of instructional technology or e-learning for portions that are on line. I have dealt with this aspect on numerous occasions. I was even involved in setting up e-learning for a new medical school. E-learning is not a bad educational tool if done appropriately and with student interaction at the maximum level! E-learning encourages maximum student interaction whether intended or not. Those that do not avail themselves of the e-learning opportunities will miss out tremendously and loose out on exams or other summative assessment. E-learning requires a certain number and level of participants to be successful. However I will use the disclaimer with regards to IUHS.;)

USUAL DISCLAIMER: None of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of IUHS.

Ming
12-29-2005, 09:51 PM
genossa,

yes, it would be interesting to hear from one of the IUHS administrators. I know a couple of current students at IUHS very well and they are definitely those that are in too deep financially to turn back. They are just hoping for the best.

As these students say, the current admissions administrators are the accountant, who is not actually an accountant, and his wife, who was a real estate salesperson until her husband put her into this job without anyone to train her except him who knew nothing about medical schools.
These are the kinds of things that potentially bring a school down. If nothing else, it brings them down to their bottom line thinking.

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 10:06 PM
I would like to have ANYONE of them discussing e-learning and how they are missusing it.

I am staying away from discussing any particulars concerning who does what at that school. It is obvious the school's educational program is being missmanaged. Anything else leads to personal attacks, etc and potential lawsuits left and right.

The case of IUHS is that of what could have been a potentially good idea on the hands of bad business people with a bad business model and it is the norm when medical schools are operated by flawed leaders and not Academics with a good understanding on medical education. You can run a for profit school and have excellent academics and excellent business people behind it.
Cheers,
Max

genossa,
yes, it would be interesting to hear from one of the IUHS administrators. I know a couple of current students at IUHS very well and they are definitely those that are in too deep financially to turn back. They are just hoping for the best.
As these students say, the current admissions administrators are the accountant, who is not actually an accountant, and his wife, who was a real estate salesperson until her husband put her into this job without anyone to train her except him who knew nothing about medical schools.
These are the kinds of things that potentially bring a school down. If nothing else, it brings them down to their bottom line thinking.

Ming
12-29-2005, 10:23 PM
Hi Max,

thanks for the reminder, but only anything that is said that is not a fact would open itself up to litigation. Credentials of those administrating a medical school is open for public viewing.

I am also guessing that if you tried to discuss the mismanagement of the curriculum, you would in fact be really pushing some of them into a corner.

They originally were using the Australian curriculum for which they paid a fee, but they appeared to have changed everything with each addition of new lecturers. this includes their own students who were/are lecturing.

You will grow old waiting to hear from anyone at that institution so the only thing you might receive is information from students, former students, former employees, former lecturers, etc, etc.

Cheers,
Ming

anatomy_guy
12-29-2005, 10:29 PM
I would like to have ANYONE of them discussing e-learning and how they are missusing it.

I am staying away from discussing any particulars concerning who does what at that school. It is obvious the school's educational program is being missmanaged. Anything else leads to personal attacks, etc and potential lawsuits left and right.

The case of IUHS is that of what could have been a potentially good idea on the hands of bad business people with a bad business model and it is the norm when medcial schools are operated by flawed leaders and not Academics with a good understanding on medical education. You can run a for profit school and have excellent academics and excellent business poeple behind it.

Cheers,
Max

How about buying out IUHS and reforming it into a viable IVIMEDS institution that it could be? There must be some well recognized medical education and medical academic leaders out there that can bring their reputations and influence to bear on such a venture. The University of Miami ran a 2 year MD program for Ph.D.'s a number of years ago before terminating the program yet these MDs are probably just as good as those that went through the traditional 4 year program. So, why not get reputable people to help. What do you think? Can we get true venture capitalists to fund such an above board venture?
Hey, I know I would do better! Do you think you guys can do better if we collaborate on such a venture?
Food for thought!!
A_G:p

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 10:34 PM
The idea of discussions like this is pushing them into a corner. And remember, anyone can file a lawsuit in this country for any reason, and not until a judge delcares it without merit, you have to answer it and hire a lawyer and all that just to have a case dismissed, even if it's frivolous. Been there , done that. That is why I will rather stay away from those kind of attacks, it does nothing good for the discussion.

I do know they licensed the University of Sydney PBL model and discarded it. BIG MISTAKE. But at the same time, with what kind of professors they were going to run it? They don't have any worth the tuition. It would have been a disgrace for the licensor (University of Sydney).

Like I said, this place has no leadership and a very bad business plan.

Max



Hi Max,
thanks for the reminder, but only anything that is said that is not a fact would open itself up to litigation. Credentials of those administrating a medical school is open for public viewing.
I am also guessing that if you tried to discuss the mismanagement of the curriculum, you would in fact be really pushing some of them into a corner.
They originally were using the Australian curriculum for which they paid a fee, but they appeared to have changed everything with each addition of new lecturers. this includes their own students who were/are lecturing.
You will grow old waiting to hear from anyone at that institution so the only thing you might receive is information from students, former students, former employees, former lecturers, etc, etc.
Cheers,
Ming

neilc
12-29-2005, 10:34 PM
How about buying out IUHS and reforming it into a viable IVIMEDS institution that it could be? There must be some well recognized medical education and medical academic leaders out there that can bring their reputations and influence to bear on such a venture. The University of Miami ran a 2 year MD program for Ph.D.'s a number of years ago before terminating the program yet these MDs are probably just as good as those that went through the traditional 4 year program. So, why not get reputable people to help. What do you think? Can we get true venture capitalists to fund such an above board venture?
Hey, I know I would do better! Do you think you guys can do better if we collaborate on such a venture?
Food for thought!!
A_G:p

due to the reputation of IUHS, it would be a far, far better idea to start from scratch. i cannot imagine getting any value out of simply purchasing the name of IUHS.

the other issue, as i see it, is that licensing boards are very unlikely to accept new methods of medical education if it is introduced abroad. as good as it may be, it is still likely to be scoffed at if you do it first outside of the US.

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 10:39 PM
an excellent idea.


and
How about buying out IUHS and reforming it into a viable IVIMEDS institution that it could be? There must be some well recognized medical education and medical academic leaders out there that can bring their reputations and influence to bear on such a venture. The University of Miami ran a 2 year MD program for Ph.D.'s a number of years ago before terminating the program yet these MDs are probably just as good as those that went through the traditional 4 year program. So, why not get reputable people to help. What do you think? Can we get true venture capitalists to fund such an above board venture?
Hey, I know I would do better! Do you think you guys can do better if we collaborate on such a venture?
Food for thought!!
A_G:p

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 10:41 PM
due to the reputation of IUHS, it would be a far, far better idea to start from scratch. i cannot imagine getting any value out of simply purchasing the name of IUHS.
the other issue, as i see it, is that licensing boards are very unlikely to accept new methods of medical education if it is introduced abroad. as good as it may be, it is still likely to be scoffed at if you do it first outside of the US.

It can be bought for the charter and clear that hurlde right away, then overhaul it. Totally doable. Get a good PR person to re-introduce it to the different medical boards.

anatomy_guy
12-29-2005, 10:44 PM
due to the reputation of IUHS, it would be a far, far better idea to start from scratch. i cannot imagine getting any value out of simply purchasing the name of IUHS.

the other issue, as i see it, is that licensing boards are very unlikely to accept new methods of medical education if it is introduced abroad. as good as it may be, it is still likely to be scoffed at if you do it first outside of the US.

You do bring out a very worthy point. The name IUHS should be dropped from the lexicon of medical schools for our newly established institution. Maybe we should establish a medical school with IVIMEDS standards within a state or province that is in dire need of physicians and ask for LCME or CACMS accreditation. Once we receive accreditation, it would be very hard to reject a school that uses e-learning and other instructional technology to provide basic sciences medical edcuation and medical professional skills. We could try Nunavat, Northwest Territories or Yukon for our new medical school or how about Alaska or Montana and the call of the wild or the white earth?
Cheers, A_G:p

Scott1981
12-30-2005, 07:26 AM
i find it interesting that the OP disappeared after his reference to a successful grad turned out to be a transfer student.

iuhsms4
01-03-2006, 07:51 PM
I hope any future med students who read this will listen to facts and truths instead of erroneous, unfounded replies and comments. IUHS provides students who are serious with the opportunity to become physicians. They are WHO approved. They will sponsor you to sit for all of your boards. They arrange clinical rotations all over the US. You will have the opportunity to obtain a residency and seek licensure in many states. Do not listen to the lies spread on this forum! These are being posted by a few people who are upset w/ IUHS for whatever reason. You may leave me a message and I'll be happy to reply.

Steve
IUHS

neilc
01-03-2006, 08:17 PM
i would love to hear which states accept IUHS for licensure. i truly doubt that any student with distance learning has gone on to be licensed. if there has been one, please PM me with the info so i can verify it. if you can't show something verifiable, then the wise assumption is that the degree is worthless.

wizard17
01-03-2006, 08:32 PM
fool! you are missing it!

sure lots of lectures get skipped, but labs dont get skipped. disection is not skipped. this is stuff you have to be there in person to learn and cant skip. this is the type of stuff you are missing with an online education.

neilc
01-03-2006, 08:43 PM
fool! you are missing it!

sure lots of lectures get skipped, but labs dont get skipped. disection is not skipped. this is stuff you have to be there in person to learn and cant skip. this is the type of stuff you are missing with an online education.

this isn't even the point.

personally, i do think that a portion of medical education can be done online, in theory. i am not sure if it has been designed or developed yet, however. as of now, i know that online based curriculum can certainly enhance a medical education.

but, the quality of the education is not what is at issue here. at this point, it doesn't matter if iuhs is the best education out there. the problem is that the US licensing boards are saying that they will NOT license grads of online based programs. period. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

now, anybody can come on here and say my education is great, i passed my boards, or even i got a residency. that may well be the case. but, to claim that an internet grad got an unrestricted license in any state is pretty tough to believe. it certainly would require verification. and, if it did somehow happen, i would bet money that the grad wouldn't want the boards to be looking too carefully at the diploma....my guess is that it would certainly have slipped through the cracks, and that the board didn't realize the grad was from an internet based curriculum.

until somebody posts verifiable licensed grads, assume the degree is worthless.

maximillian genossa
01-03-2006, 08:57 PM
"if a person, who did the 1st 2 years of his medical education online can work up 12 patients per NBME guidelines, pass Step 1, Step 2 CK, and Step 3- tell me why he shouldn't become a doctor in the US? "


I have been asking all along and I am yet to see anyone answering it objectivlely because it is the kind of question that should be addressed to medical licensing boards, not just the negative aspects but any positive aspects as well. Obviously this site is polluted with people who will just emphasize the negative aspect of anything, granted is their right, I do that once in a while. And please, folks do not give me the typical runaround that is what medical licensing boards are doing and are not going to change bla bla bla. I know that, hell, we all know that, what I want is to challenge this issue to a higher level of discussion like we did a few days ago. It is time to address this from a different perspective.

Disclaimer...The preceding does NOT constitute an endorsement of any kind to IUHS and their practices. That will be ridiculous...pardon me Steve.





No, Carmen. You and the rest of the people who are bashing IUHS need to get your facts straight. There are several students who did their pre-clinical education through IUHS PBL who are residents and one who is licensed in his state. I do not know what part of that you are not getting. IUHS has re-vamped their program. I agree that their administration could use some help (more people). However, I currently rotate w/ many students from other foreign medical schools, and each of their schools have their own problems also. Acquiring medical education requires autonomous learning. It is widely known that many US medical students don't attend lectures on a regular basis without direct consequence from the school. Foreign medical school students tend to skip class even more than the US students. Should states place sanctions and regulations on attendance policies at medical schools? NO!!!! If you can pass the boards that are written and standardized by the NBME, it shouldn't matter how you acquired the education (sitting at home cramming instead of attending class, attending classes online, etc etc etc..) Every medical student must take and pass USMLE Step 2 CS which requires 12 patient encounters and appropriate work-ups. These are evaluated by NBME experts. Now, if a person, who did the 1st 2 years of his medical education online can work up 12 patients per NBME guidelines, pass Step 1, Step 2 CK, and Step 3- tell me why he shouldn't become a doctor in the US? If you answer that question with a derogatory response, you have not taken and/or studied for all of the steps required for licensure. Times are changing folks! I'm sorry that a few ex-iuhs disgruntled people are trying to make a bad name for a school who is as good as any carribean med school out there.

I have to go back to studying. I hope any future med students who read this will listen to facts and truths instead of erroneous, unfounded replies and comments. IUHS provides students who are serious with the opportunity to become physicians. They are WHO approved. They will sponsor you to sit for all of your boards. They arrange clinical rotations all over the US. You will have the opportunity to obtain a residency and seek licensure in many states. Do not listen to the lies spread on this forum! These are being posted by a few people who are upset w/ IUHS for whatever reason. You may leave me a message and I'll be happy to reply.

Steve
IUHS

iuhsms4
01-03-2006, 09:27 PM
I will be happy to engage in a forum that discusses more productive topics like time management while attending a distance learning medical program like IUHS. Unfortunately, the only replies I expect to get in the near future will be negative ones. Please, don't waste your time! Everybody gets it! YOU DO NOT LIKE IUHS! YOU DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO GO THERE. AND, IF SOMEONE CHOOSES TO, THEY ARE DUMB. OK, we get it already! For the rest of you who want to engage in real, serious discussion, please reply to this, and let's set up our own forum to talk about real issues facing non-traditional, working medical students.

neilc
01-03-2006, 09:33 PM
1. you mentioned that there are states that will not license ANY carib grad. name one.

2. you are right, IUHS does not have to verify anything. however, a simple call to the state boards will clearly show that they DO NOT license distance education grads. for you to claim that a license has been issued is ridiculous. if you cannot verify it, fine. it means either you are lying, or the grad misrepresented his/her application and doesn't want anybody looking more closely.

3. again...THE PROBLEM IS NOT WITH WHAT YOU THINK OF THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION AT IUHS!!! the problem is that boards won't license you, regardless of how well prepared you think you may be.

iuhsms4
01-03-2006, 09:37 PM
I will be happy to engage in a forum that discusses more productive topics like time management while attending a distance learning medical program like IUHS. Unfortunately, the only replies I expect to get in the near future will be negative ones. Please, don't waste your time! Everybody gets it! YOU DO NOT LIKE IUHS! YOU DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO GO THERE. AND, IF SOMEONE CHOOSES TO, THEY ARE DUMB. OK, we get it already! For the rest of you who want to engage in real, serious discussion, please reply to this, and let's set up our own forum to talk about real issues facing non-traditional, working medical students.

neilc
01-03-2006, 09:40 PM
"if a person, who did the 1st 2 years of his medical education online can work up 12 patients per NBME guidelines, pass Step 1, Step 2 CK, and Step 3- tell me why he shouldn't become a doctor in the US? "


i think the problem here is that most would agree that these steps, by themselves, are pretty inadequate as a screening device, or as a measure of ability. the fact is, there are a lot of phd's out there that could likely self study for a while and pass. there are a lot of med studs out there that DO do that. i think by requiring attendance at a reputable, accredited med school that demonstrates some standards (which are evaluated by some outside, independent sources) minimizes the risk that somebody can "slip" through, and just pass the exam. the assumption being that by attending a reputable school, the passing of the USMLE is simply a verification of knowledge being aquired. it is not the sole requirement.

the fact that licensure is a multi-step process in the USA offers the patients some protection. i think that protection should actually be increased by requiring additional evaluation and oversight of international schools.

having a degree from a reputable school, coupled with the passing of the USMLE exams and completion of a ACGME residency is a pretty rigorous and thorough. elimination of even one of those steps (ie allowing anyone who wants to attempt the test to take it) cuts out 33% of the protection in place to the patients. that is too much to ask, IMHO

iuhsms4
01-03-2006, 10:14 PM
Ok. So, let's advocate to tighten up and make stricter requirements for licensure. I'm all about that. In fact, I'd go back, repeat my 4 years, if that happened. However, many of you who graduated from a foreign med school, or will graduate from a foreign med school, you need to take or retake your pre- meds and get A's, get a 30+ on your MCAT, then you can also redo 4 years of med school. Are you willing to do that? If not, then you are a hipprocrate!

sheikh1
01-03-2006, 10:20 PM
M.D.'s of the cutting edge, without cutting, not in my backyard....!!

neilc
01-03-2006, 10:29 PM
i see you popping all these pre med stats...that is plain stupid. if you want to compare pre med stats with everyone, great. and, i do agree that there is a correlation to USMLE perfomance with MCAT. and, better undergrad students tend to do better in med school. fine. but, what on earth does that have to do with this discussion???

frankly, if you did that well in pre med, and still chose IUHS, i question your common sense.

you ask about which schools of the above i consider reputable? well, auc and ross to start. why? because they have been around a long time, have a proven track record of success, and have outside approval from more than one source indicating that they are strong academically. the others, IMHO, have a long way to go. some other strong carib schools are SGU and Saba.

as far as multiple attempts on the boards, and low passes? well, frankly, i would prefer a grad of a reputable school with a second pass 189 than any grad from IUHS. why? because i think the board exams are poor predictors. they are simply methods of assessing whether you have minimum knowledge to further your education. i am convinced that a student from a better school will have a better medical education than any student from IUHS.

again, the boards should look at school quality, board passage and residency completion for licensure. not premed. not board scores.

i can see you are passionate. that is great, you will need it. but, you do not need to convince me. in fact, you won't. and, i strongly doubt that you will convince any medical board either. so, you better hope they don't look too deep into your transcript, or you may be SOL.

neilc
01-03-2006, 10:33 PM
Ok. So, let's advocate to tighten up and make stricter requirements for licensure. I'm all about that. In fact, I'd go back, repeat my 4 years, if that happened. However, many of you who graduated from a foreign med school, or will graduate from a foreign med school, you need to take or retake your pre- meds and get A's, get a 30+ on your MCAT, then you can also redo 4 years of med school. Are you willing to do that? If not, then you are a hipprocrate!

actually, i already did graduate from a reputable school. no need for me to repeat anything. funny that you should admit that your school is not reputable here, and that you would do it if you didn't see this potential loophole or shortcut. the bad news is that you may very well have to do this.

(and i don't understand your fixation on pre med grades? even US grads don't ever show the pre-med grades to anyone after they get in....they are simply a screening tool, and are widely seen as inadequate, but easy to use. glad you did so well, but sorry man, live in the now. and the now is that you made a very poor choice in schools, and it will bite you in the butt later)

iuhsms4
01-03-2006, 10:53 PM
I am certainly not trying to convince you of anything. However, I am exposing your hippocracy. IUHS hasn't been around as long as the schools you mentioned. Your whole argument stems on the fact that IUHS doesn't have licensed grads because "states won't license graduates from an online program". This is simply not true or verifiable because the only IUHS grads that have applied for licensure have gained licensure. The others are still completing residency because the school is relatively new.

neilc
01-03-2006, 11:16 PM
I am certainly not trying to convince you of anything. However, I am exposing your hippocracy. IUHS hasn't been around as long as the schools you mentioned. Your whole argument stems on the fact that IUHS doesn't have licensed grads because "states won't license graduates from an online program". This is simply not true or verifiable because the only IUHS grads that have applied for licensure have gained licensure. The others are still completing residency because the school is relatively new.

it is simple to verify that a degree from IUHS is worthless in most states. call the boards, and say "if i graduate from medical school that offers its basic science curriculum online can i get a license in your state". let us know what they say. i fail to see any hippocracy in that. that is reality.

you keep saying that there are grads with licenses. show us ONE. otherwise, your statement has to be taken as false. why? simply call the boards. simple math. a professor should understand



You equate competency to the method of education. That is stupid! It has been my experience as a college professor of science, that it is unlikely that a student will change his/her study habits overnight. Many students in foreign med schools, like the ones you mentioned were so reputable, are the same students who barely pulled C's in organic chemistry. Believe it or not, this is why US medical schools filter these students from admission. They know that it is unlikely their study habits will change. This is why US med schools have 90%+ pass rates on the boards, and the schools you mentioned have less than 90% pass rates on 1st attempts. That is why pre-med coursework is relevant to this discussion. It has very little to do with predicative value for medical boards. However, pre-med coursework has a high predicative value for succuess in traditional medical education at a US med school and diligence in continuing education as a post-grad and physician. That is very relevant. And, any rhetoric on the contrary would be , as you so eloquently stated, "stupid".

i equate competency to a combination of the education(not the method, but the entire process), passage of boards and completion of residency . i use the standard of previous success coupled with a reliable outside assessment of quality (ie approvals from independent entities) as a method of determining which schools are likely to provide a solid education.

you keep coming back to boards...sure, i agree that pre med predicts board success. that is a small part of the equation i propose! you completly ignore the fact that education is important, and that outside approval is a good barometer. you keep coming back to pre meds and the boards...whee!

the fact is that carib schools have a very low pass rate. below 60% last i heard. what does that prove? lower standards equal lower pass rates. again, not too relevent. that is obvious.

i am NOT saying that getting a good education is impossible outside of the traditional routes. i am NOT saying that somebody who underperforms in undergrad is likely to do better in med school. they are not, but the may. i am not saying that my proposed method would eliminate only the underqualified. i am sure that there are many strong students at the lesser schools.

unfortunately, however, i think that it is impossible to give every single offshore graduate a thorough going over to determine fitness and ability. with that in mind, there need to be some simple guidelines in place to help keep out the riff raff. i don't think that simply passing the USMLE is an adequate barrier to protect the patients.

now do you get it????? it is not about one thing...it is about devising a combination of factors that help eliminate poor candidates. using one factor (ie USMLE) is inadequate. so, add in the school quality. add in an ACGME residency. with those in place you have a much better screening tool, and it costs very little in terms of time and money. simple.

and, any student that can succeed at the lesser schools should be able to succeed at the better schools. so, why not go to one of the better schools? i have NEVER heard a good answer to that question.

miasma
01-03-2006, 11:30 PM
haha, don't bother neil, some people just don't get it.

iuhsms4
01-04-2006, 12:15 AM
First, one makes an observation. You have done that successfully. However, then one collects data. Not just some data. But, all possible data before formulating a theory. You have failed to do that part.

iuhsms4
01-04-2006, 12:34 AM
Neil, you obviously are having trouble with reading comprehension. I know it's late. I never said that IUHS was irreputable. You did. Again, get your data. I know of many docs who are practicing that consider IUHS and it's students to be of very high standing. I rotate with students from many of the schools you mentioned. They are no better prepared for clinicals as I was. In fact, with my background, I was probably better prepared than most. IUHS is beginning to become more reputable every day. They have students in residency programs who will be licensed shortly. It is interesting that you fail to respond to the majority of my statements. You don't talk about your background. You don't address any points regarding pre-medical preparation and admissions policies as they relate to a school's prestige and reputation. Either you are ignorant regarding these points, or you are just evading them.

neilc
01-04-2006, 12:36 AM
It is clear that you are not reading my replies thoroughly. I did not equate pre-med w/ boards. You did! I said that pre-med courses are good predictors of a student's study habits and diligence. Good students make "reputable" schools. How can a school who admits medicore students be considered "reputable". Because "independent sources" who may or may not have a vested interest in the school say so? I think you are missing the whole point here. IUHS could also get "independant sources" to evaluate their program and say it is reputable. At the end of the day, success in medicine takes hard work before and after medical school. Some students bypass the before part of the equation and work extra hard and succeed. I think that is great and should be continued. However, once states begin denying licensure to grads of online medical schools, who have a comparable curriculum to any foreign med school and admit many students who have completed ALL of their pre-med requirements, then those same states ought to hold every foreign medical school to the same standard as US medical schools, including completing all pre-medical coursework/MCAT prior to admission. We're talking about standards here. Many of the schools you mentioned were reputable do not meet the same admission standards as US medical schools who, believe it or not, ARE the model of medical education in my country. Nevertheless, this discussion is premature, because no IUHS grad has been denied licensure on the basis of how he/she acquired his/her medical education. I see MD after your name, but I also see "Prague". Are you planning on practicing medicine in my country? Or do you already practice here? Be careful for what you wish for. Because if licensing boards become stricter, you and many of your colleagues may not be able to practice here. I have heard of some states already denying licensure to MD's based on not satisfying pre-med requirements. Look that up! We should all be supportive of one another. IMG already have it rough. It is not wise to open up a can that may just explode in your own face. Be careful of what you wish for.......

First, one makes an observation. You have done that successfully. However, then one collects data. Not just some data. But, all possible data before formulating a theory. You have failed to do that part. You claim that "all states will deny licensure to online medical students". However, my state's dept. of professional regualtion, asssured me licensure as long as I fullfill the state's requirements which do NOT include physically attending a medical school for pre-clinical sciences. They do require that one completes his pre-clinical sciences AT a medical school. I even told them I did my pre-clinicals online. They asked, "Was it through a WHO , ECFMG approved meeical school?" I said, "Yes." They said, "That should not be a problem then."

Did you call every state in my country and ask them if they would deny licensure to online med grads? If the answer is no, then you did not collect all of your data. You have an interesting hypothesis, but that is all it is! I suggest that before making defamous and liable statements and assumptions, you may want to collect ALL available data. Then, test your hypothesis using your data. Then, and only then, reject your hypothesis if applicable. We use that sort of thinking in medicine. It's called scientific method. Maybe you could had benefited from those pre-med classes afterall!

dude, you are hilarious...
:D

lets see, where do i start? lets start with "reputable" schools. of the schools i mentioned, most have very similar requirements as to the US schools. sure the GPA's and MCAT's are generally lower than the US school, but the requirement is there at ross, auc, saba and sgu. so, they meet your definition of reputable, i guess. personally, i look at output as a determining factor, not input. the quality of the product. and, when compared to US schools, they certainly do fall a bit behind. at least they do if you use USMLE as the comparison. however, i do believe that even pass rates in the 60's indicate a pretty good success, given the lower quality applicant in general. so, if you want to rely on input, fine. you will have issues with that however. and, what do you do when the school comes from outside of the carib? how do you adjust for different education systems? clearly judging inputs is pretty inadequate.

then you question the "independent sources", and state IUHS could get them if they wanted? hilarious...i think that the NY medical board, the CA board and the Dept of Education are pretty reliable sources. all of the better schools, IMHO, have at least one of these outside sources to validate quality of education. perfect method? no. but certainly better than nothing. and, how many of these sources would validate IUHS? i daresay none. if you can think of ANY reputable source that would evaluate IUHS and give it a clean bill of health i would say that it certainly is in the schools best interest to do it. why don't they?

i agree that success takes hard work before and after medical school. and, i agree that there are likely a few students out there that may not need a traditional route and a great school to do well. but, SO FREAKIN WHAT!!!! that is NOT THE POINT!!! to evaluate every medical student individually and thoroughly is NOT PRACTICAL OR POSSIBLE!! so, what do we do now? do we accept every dodgy school's grad that can slip through the USMLE and hope for the best? i say no. far better is to establish reasonable standards of medical education (not based on input, but output...so, leave your silly MCAT and undergrad GPA argument out of this...irrelevent!), evaluate the fund of knowledge (through the USMLE), and require ACGME post gradute training. simple.

again, i see your point that there may be SOME good students that go to crappy schools that miss out by this method. what do i say to that??? too freakin bad. YOU made the poor choice of schools. there were lots of schools out there, and you certainly could have gotten into a school that would better provide for your future. any tool that chooses a crappy school is frankly not somebody i would want choosing medical treatments for me or my family. common sense and evidence based practice should come into play SOMEWHERE!

as for your little science project, data gathering, hypothesis crap. the fact is that yes, i DID look into MANY of the states laws. and, there are many that
SPECIFICALLY PROHIBIT distance education. for examples, look to NJ, MASS, TX, and CA, just to name a few. i did gather the data. it supports my hypothesis. now, you claim to have information to the contrary. post it. simple. prove me wrong. show me a licensed grad, and you will get my public aplogy, at least for that state that allowed it. i would love to hear what your home state is. i will call and verify this info myself. send me a PM if you don't want to post it. i will be happy to admit that i missed a state or two. but, that really won't change the gist of this post. instead of my position of IUHS being worthless in all states, it will change to being worthless in most states. the difference is academic.

and, FYI, i did graduate from prague. i am eligible for post graduate training in the czech republic, but i chose to return to the US. i already have a residency position. i have all my pre med requirements, and then some. i will have no problem in any state, based on any criteria they choose to use.

neilc
01-04-2006, 12:39 AM
Neil, you obviously are having trouble with reading comprehension. I know it's late. I never said that IUHS was irreputable. You did. Again, get your data. I know of many docs who are practicing that consider IUHS and it's students to be of very high standing. I rotate with students from many of the schools you mentioned. They are no better prepared for clinicals as I was. In fact, with my background, I was probably better prepared than most. IUHS is beginning to become more reputable every day. They have students in residency programs who will be licensed shortly. It is interesting that you fail to respond to the majority of my statements. You don't talk about your background. You don't address any points regarding pre-medical preparation and admissions policies as they relate to a school's prestige and reputation. Either you are ignorant regarding these points, or you are just evading them.

i did already address the premed admission policy **. it is irrelevent. i judge on output rather than input. i think you would agree that harvard has higher admission standards than howard, and sure they are more prestigious. but, they both have solid programs designed to give students the tools they need to succeed. they are both evaluated by the LCME. the grads all have to pass the USMLE and get a residency to get a license. so, the pre med stats really mean nothing once you get to this point. all pre med stats do is determine where you will study. the school has to meet standards independent of who they admit.

i can assure you that in no way is IUHS becoming more reputable. please, give me an example of that. any example of somebody who does not attend the school, and who is not paid by the school saying anything positive about it will do.

show us those residents. where are they? and what states do they plan on being licensed in? that is easy enough to show, so do it.

and, what on EARTH does my background have to do with IUHS grads getting a license???? talk about diversion.

neilc
01-04-2006, 12:42 AM
here, lets just make this simple. no matter how i think schools should or shouldn't be evaluated. lets just look at the reality of the world we live in now.

my challenges to you:
1) show us which states are open to distance education
2) show us one licensed grad
3) show us one of these many residents
4) tell us where they plan to apply for licensure
5) show me one iota of evidence that IUHS is becoming respected (and this cannot come from anybody paid by the school or attending the school)

simple stuff, right? i think we would agree that the proof is in the pudding. my assertation is that IUHS is a practically worthless degree, at least from the on-line program. my proof is in the state laws, which are easy enough to verify. i already gave states that don't accept IUHS. your turn

neilc
01-04-2006, 12:46 AM
haha, don't bother neil, some people just don't get it.

you are telling me! jeez! you would think an ex-college professor would see the reality...

iuhsms4
01-04-2006, 12:49 AM
IUHS has reasonable standards of medical education, grads have passed USMLE, and are in ACGME post grad training programs. You finally got it! I am proud of you. However, you still need to work on your data collection. And, none of those schools you mentioned require 2 semesters of physics w/ lab. You can get admitted w/ 1 semester. Get your data.......... dude. lol

iuhsms4
01-04-2006, 12:51 AM
I challenge you to answer those 5 challenges for Charles University. Never heard of it.

neilc
01-04-2006, 12:54 AM
i agree that success takes hard work before and after medical school. and, i agree that there are likely a few students out there that may not need a traditional route and a great school to do well. but, SO FREAKIN WHAT!!!! that is NOT THE POINT!!! to evaluate every medical student individually and thoroughly is NOT PRACTICAL OR POSSIBLE!! so, what do we do now? do we accept every dodgy school's grad that can slip through the USMLE and hope for the best? i say no. far better is to establish reasonable standards of medical education (not based on input, but output...so, leave your silly MCAT and undergrad GPA argument out of this...irrelevent!), evaluate the fund of knowledge (through the USMLE), and require ACGME post gradute training. simple.

IUHS has reasonable standards of medical education, grads have passed USMLE, and are in ACGME post grad training programs. You finally got it! I am proud of you. However, you still need to work on your data collection. And, none of those schools you mentioned require 2 semesters of physics w/ lab. You can get admitted w/ 1 semester. Get your data.......... dude. lol

hahahahhaha! sorry, i missed that extra physics semester! you are right!! hahahhahahhahahha! i cannot believe how sharp you are. how could i have missed that!

omg, i think you just gave me a hernia. and, no, i would not let an IUHS grad operate on me for it. your entire argument hinges on whether a school requires an extra semester of physics, arguabely the LEAST important pre med class. that is hilarious! always back to the pre med requirements. guess you have no other argument. hey, if that is all you got, prof, then i feel really sorry for your former students. they are going to be lost in the world if they relied on that superb intellect!!!

btw, who, outside of the school admin and students has evaluated IUHS and stated that the educational standard is high? uhhhh...nobody. sorry, but your word is biased and means squat. so, no IUHS does not measure up.

anyhow, just read the 5 challenges. we will leave it at that.

neilc
01-04-2006, 01:07 AM
I challenge you to answer those 5 challenges for Charles University. Never heard of it.

no problem

1. charles university does not offer distance education
2. http://www.cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/24585.html here is the first alum i found, again on a google search. there is another alum on faculty at stanford, as well as several other highly rated med schools
3. http://www.siumed.edu/cfpc/residents.htm here is one resident, the first i found on a simple google search
4. there are grads in most states. i have checked and done plenty of searches. here is one example, again from a simple google search: http://westsidemedicalcenter.com/bios.htm
5. take a look at this site to see what sort of programs the school is involved in:http://www.lf1.cuni.cz/default.asp?nDepartmentID=215&nLanguageID=2
. as for an independent source of "reputation", how about we start with the CA medical boards approval of the czech and english language programs, as well as the DOE approval for federal loans.

your turn

and, if you want more grads, residents or references to academic excellence, they are out there. use google, medline or whatever. but, i don't need that much from you. just one of each. simple, right?

iuhsms4
01-04-2006, 01:13 AM
Again, you continue to evade the topic. I am simply proving that you make assumptions that are not backed by solid data. You have said several times that, "I doubt........." The fact is you don't know. 2nd semester physics is just as relevant as online education. The difference is US medical schools, who are the standard in this country, require it. Many US schools also incorporate online education in their curriculum. If you are going to make blind assumptions regarding online education and licensure, then why not make the same blind assumption regarding pre-med requirements in respect to licensure and prestige and reputability of medical school. You are proving why it is so important for our future doctors to be educated. GET YOUR DATA! STOP ASSUMING, DOUBTING, ETC....I am really trying to help you become a more responsible and concise thinker. Especially because you may be practicing medicine in my country. Please do not assume facts about your patients before asking them. That would be irresponsible and potentially dangerous. Please reply when you have gathered your data. If you don't have the patience and time to gather all the data, please don't continue to make ridiculous statements which are embarrasing to you and the school who granted you an MD.

neilc
01-04-2006, 01:18 AM
Again, you continue to evade the topic. I am simply proving that you make assumptions that are not backed by solid data. You have said several times that, "I doubt........." The fact is you don't know. 2nd semester physics is just as relevant as online education. The difference is US medical schools, who are the standard in this country, require it. Many US schools also incorporate online education in their curriculum. If you are going to make blind assumptions regarding online education and licensure, then why not make the same blind assumption regarding pre-med requirements in respect to licensure and prestige and reputability of medical school. You are proving why it is so important for our future doctors to be educated. GET YOUR DATA! STOP ASSUMING, DOUBTING, ETC....I am really trying to help you become a more responsible and concise thinker. Especially because you may be practicing medicine in my country. Please do not assume facts about your patients before asking them. That would be irresponsible and potentially dangerous. Please reply when you have gathered your data. If you don't have the patience and time to gather all the data, please don't continue to make ridiculous statements which are embarrasing to you and the school who granted you an MD.

dude, give me a break. you are really, really nit picking here. my school is certainly not embarassed of me. how about we turn it around...you show me the data that says semester 2 of physics is important, and i will give it some significance. and, the argument is not about US med schools. it is about adopting a set of standards for offshore schools. my position is simply this: high standard school (as determined by outside recognition as well as academic track record), pass the boards and complete a residency. you are simply trying to confuse the issue by bringing pre med and other such non sense into it. if you think pre med standards should be a high priority when evaluating schools, great. if you want all med students to have completed 2 semesters of physics, fine. talk to your state med board. obviously you need to find some way of justifying your choice in schools, and i will not deprive you of your self deceit.
don't attempt to patronize me by saying i am trying to help you become a clear and concise thinker. your choice in a med school gives you very little credibility as far as utilizing evidence based decision making.

but, how about we stay on subject...the question? is IUHS a school that will provide you with a useful, recognized degree. can you do that? so far, the answer is a resounding NO!!!!

i asked you for 5 simple examples of the DATA that would show IUHS as being somewhat viable. they were simple challenges, in order for you to back up your claims with DATA. (i am just tryin to help you be a more concise thinker. so, find some DATA and back up what you claim).

you tried to sidetrack it by turning the question on me. i answered. your turn. put up or shut up.

iuhsms4
01-04-2006, 01:21 AM
I'm done. You obviously don't get it. Good luck in future medical career.

neilc
01-04-2006, 01:30 AM
I'm done. You obviously don't get it. Good luck in future medical career.

game, set and match.

sorry you couldn't come up with anything to support your ridiculous claims. i hope you do better at convincing the state boards to accept your "credentials". i guess for all of your spouting about DATA, you only believe that others need to find it and use it.

btw, it was likely wise of you not to blow the cover of the "many" IUHS residents and "licensed" grads. if they exist, it is surely because somebody did not check closely enough into the "education" they recieved.

oh yeah, and thanks for the lesson in responsible and concise thinking. truly, you should have employed those lessons yourself when choosing where to spend your hard earned dollars on an "education".

Ming
01-04-2006, 04:23 AM
IUHS4,
my girlfriend was reading over my shoulder and asked me to inquire if you are one of the lecturers at IUHS. My

Ming
01-04-2006, 04:42 AM
IUHS4,
my girlfriend was reading over my shoulder and asked me to inquire if you are one of the lecturering students at IUHS. Her two friends at IUHS say you are and that is one of the reasons you state it is a good school. If that is so, wouldn't you agree that is as strong bias?
We read all the recent discussions and the bottom line is that there are not many good off-shore schools. Anyone choosing IUHS over a long history off-shore school must have very specific reasons that can't be satisfied by attendance at a place such as St. George's for instance. The first instance would be financial, certainly not it's reputation. By that I mean the student probably has to work while doing pre-clinicals.
Ironically, that is an interesting discussion on its own. If a student has good pre-med grades, they should be able to get into a good local school. It might be possible that they didn't do so well on the interview portion of the admissions grading. That's an important item as the interview is designed to try to find the most stable personalities which is equally as important as good grades, all things being equal. Some of the discussions here seem to raise that more as a probability than possibility. Many students at IUHS might be older than desired by regular schools.

There is not yet a student from IUHS that has started from the beginning of the on-line pre-clinical who has been licenced. If that were a fact, it would be all over their website. IUHS has had a lot of students who were kicked out of regular US medical schools and went to IUHS to try to finish up. Basically request to be placed in clinicals to finish up or just sponsor them to sit USMLE. This is nothing more than IUHS picking up a fee for signing papers.
What was your shining incentive to choose such a school with such a bad past and bad reputation?

lmoliver
01-04-2006, 10:50 AM
I'm done. You obviously don't get it. Good luck in future medical career.

No, you don't get it!! You were asked quite simply to supply some evidence and you would not. I'm sceptical but hope you are right. I would like to know if what you say is true. My husband's health is delicate and I would be one to really benefit from an online pre-clinical program.

Stop ranting and raving. Just give us the state(s) and the name of a licensed grad(s).

mcgrady
01-04-2006, 11:22 AM
hey oliver

i work with 2 in england...seriously, i was shocked. but it seems that they were really serious about it. I'm afraid i can not going to tell where and when they qualified so the sceptics don't end up calling authorities to jeorpadise someonelse's career.... but believe me i know them very well. they r excellent

azskeptic
01-04-2006, 11:25 AM
hey oliver

i work with 2 in england...seriously, i was shocked. but it seems that they were really serious about it. I'm afraid i can not going to tell where and when they qualified so the sceptics don't end up calling authorities to jeorpadise someonelse's career.... but believe me i know them very well. they r excellent observe the GMC actions that are currently happening and I think you'll kow the future of IUHS/UHSA acceptance in the UK

mcgrady
01-04-2006, 11:30 AM
i don't think they care who u r or what u plan to do against them... but it's not going to happen this time. they r not stchris students my boy, they r DOCTORS. get a life!!!

mcgrady
01-04-2006, 11:32 AM
do u know how many caribbean students are rotating in the uk now???? i guess not!

azskeptic
01-04-2006, 11:35 AM
do u know how many caribbean students are rotating in the uk now???? i guess not! The GMC is in the process of issuing a statement on clinicals incidentally.

mcgrady
01-04-2006, 11:37 AM
hahahaha!!!!

mcgrady
01-04-2006, 11:38 AM
really??? hahahaha

mcgrady
01-04-2006, 11:40 AM
leave them alone, travelling all this way to rotate and now u want them to take slack from u??? give me break.

maximillian genossa
01-04-2006, 02:08 PM
However, prevously I did mention and factored in the equation a student that has not only passed his board tests but who has also performed excellent or well on his clinial rotations and or their residency. I think that those are instances where the student's ability and knowledge can be better evaluated. Provided all this, is he or she still incompetent or banned from licensure just because they did 2 years of basic sciences the non-traditional way?

Your turn.

Disclosure...My statements DO NOT consititute and endorsement to IUHS.






i think the problem here is that most would agree that these steps, by themselves, are pretty inadequate as a screening device, or as a measure of ability. the fact is, there are a lot of phd's out there that could likely self study for a while and pass. there are a lot of med studs out there that DO do that. i think by requiring attendance at a reputable, accredited med school that demonstrates some standards (which are evaluated by some outside, independent sources) minimizes the risk that somebody can "slip" through, and just pass the exam. the assumption being that by attending a reputable school, the passing of the USMLE is simply a verification of knowledge being aquired. it is not the sole requirement.

the fact that licensure is a multi-step process in the USA offers the patients some protection. i think that protection should actually be increased by requiring additional evaluation and oversight of international schools.

having a degree from a reputable school, coupled with the passing of the USMLE exams and completion of a ACGME residency is a pretty rigorous and thorough. elimination of even one of those steps (ie allowing anyone who wants to attempt the test to take it) cuts out 33% of the protection in place to the patients. that is too much to ask, IMHO

Carmen
01-04-2006, 02:28 PM
Neither of these doctors did their pre-clinical on-line. They are both oral surgeons, one completed his pre-clinical and clinical rotations in an English University. The other was granted advanced standing because he was an oral surgeon.

Sorry to disappoint you. I have been told who these doctors are and would be happy to elaborate without disclosing any information that could hurt either of them. Feel free to send me a p.m.

Carmen

maximillian genossa
01-04-2006, 02:28 PM
observe the GMC actions that are currently happening and I think you'll kow the future of IUHS/UHSA acceptance in the UK

The GMC actions are yet to be determined. You are speculating. Like going to a horse track and picking up a horse, no different. Let them rule and STOP the speculation. Once they rule, one way or the other, then we will comment. We are all just amateurs dude, no matter how hard we try. Let the experts figure it out.

Don't you remember what the GMC did 2 weeks ago? They said one thing about St. Chris and apparently they got too many phone calls on the subject or who knows what happened they reverted back their language. So, gambling on any GMC investigation is pretty much like playing black jack, especially when the GMC has the tendency to revert itself.

azskeptic
01-04-2006, 03:13 PM
The GMC actions are yet to be determined. You are speculating. Like going to a horse track and picking up a horse, no different. Let them rule and STOP the speculation. Once they rule, one way or the other, then we will comment. We are all just amateurs dude, no matter how hard we try. Let the experts figure it out.

Don't you remember what the GMC did 2 weeks ago? They said one thing about St. Chris and apparently they got too many phone calls on the subject or who knows what happened they reverted back their language. So, gambling on any GMC investigation is pretty much like playing black jack, especially when the GMC has the tendency to revert itself. The GMC has stated they are going to issue a statement on clinicals and update their website on the offshore education issue. We don't know what that means but we know that they will do something ultimately,one way or the other.

iuhsms4
01-04-2006, 06:27 PM
See my past posts. Good luck in your future medical education.

lmoliver
01-04-2006, 06:57 PM
First, I am not a faculty member. I am a student at IUHS. I have not been "ranting and raving". I simply pointed out that several people on this forum are spreading untruths about IUHS based on inadequate data. This is shameful especially because many of you are medical students or doctors who presumably understand scientific method. I challenge you to collect all available data before making conclusions. You haven't, so therefore you are being irresponsible. Below are facts based on REAL data:

1. IUHS is a new school and it's grads have not completed residencies yet. Hence, they have not been able to apply for licensure. However, they alll have been granted licensure through their states to be residents with prescription privledges, etc... Use common sense! Why would a state grant residency licensure to a person who they didn't think was qualified because they did their pre-clinical sciences online. I know- you're going to say that residents are under the supervision of an attending. However, any of you who have rotated at a University hospital know that when a resident wants to write an order, he does not need the seal of approval from his attending. He writes it and the nursing staff on the ward fills it often w/o the signature or verbal ok of an attending. States know this! So, what makes you think that same state will not grant unrestricted licensure to the same resident after completion of his residency program? That is ridiculous. NY will not license IUHS grads. Hence, IUHS grads cannot do residencies in NY! However, if State B licenses residents who graduated from IUHS. Then, they should have no reservation granting unrestricted licensure to that person once he completes his residency requirement. Do you actually think that there are states that have regulations that say, "If you did your pre-clinicals online, you can go ahead and prescribe meds and take care of our state's citizens as a resident for 3-12 years. HOWEVER!!!! If you did your pre-clinicals online, you cannot practice medicine in this state once you finish your residency! Dammit!!" Do you see how ridiculous that is? I know someone will try to dispute this, but c'mon now. Enough is enough! Save your fingers and our minds from your unjustifiable replies.

2. All the IUHS grads I know who applied for licensure have been granted licensure in their states after completing their residencies. I nor anyone from IUHS is going to give their names and locations especially in this forum for obvious reasons.

3. Not all states require physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. However, my state does require that one takes pre-clinical sciences at a medical school. This simply means they will not count your Biochemistry that you took while you were an undergraduate Chemistry major as the Biochem. requirement for state licensure. I have confirmed that fact on several occasions with my state's dept. of professional regulation. Once the IUHS bashers call every state's dept. of professional regulation, they will find that this fact is true for several states. But as you know, they won't for the same reasons they slacked off as undergrads and didn't get accepted into a US med school. Hmmm?

The above are facts based on solid data collection. The rest of the garbage you are reading on here is from a few disgruntled people who have no hard evidence to back up anything they say. So, if you read their replies, all you read are statements like "Your wasting your money. IUHS grads will never get licensed. The administration is unqualified. The school is a sham! Blah Blah Blah." Those comments are almost laughable! The only data that has been presented on this forum that is remotely true is that some states will not license IUHS grads who completed their pre-clinicals online. The key word is "some". The fact is the people who are saying this have only inquired 7-8 states. And, they have the audacity to extrapolate this to the other 40 some states! This is irresponsible and ignorant. I challenge you, as an unbiased reader, to ask Carmen, AZSpectic, the guy from Prague, and anybody else who bashes IUHS to provide you with some solid data, meaning every state's licensing requirements regarding physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. They won't be able to. Because not every state has that written in their regulations. These uninformed individuals will just keep printing assumptions and opinions. PLEASE DO NOT CUT AND PASTE ONE PORTION OF THIS REPLY AND RESPOND TO IT. IF YOU WISH TO DISPUTE THIS REPLY, DISPUTE IT IN IT'S ENTIRETY. STOP EVADING THE MOST IMPORATANT ISSUES I RAISE. Good luck in your future medical education.

No, first things first. What state or states? Why is that a secret?

azskeptic
01-04-2006, 07:38 PM
No, first things first. What state or states? Why is that a secret? because they aren't licensed as MD's..they are oral surgeons who are licensed as DDS's

neilc
01-04-2006, 08:16 PM
First, I am not a faculty member. I am a student at IUHS. I have not been "ranting and raving". I simply pointed out that several people on this forum are spreading untruths about IUHS based on inadequate data. This is shameful especially because many of you are medical students or doctors who presumably understand scientific method. I challenge you to collect all available data before making conclusions. You haven't, so therefore you are being irresponsible. Below are facts based on REAL data:

1. IUHS is a new school and it's grads have not completed residencies yet. Hence, they have not been able to apply for licensure. However, they alll have been granted licensure through their states to be residents with prescription privledges, etc... Use common sense! Why would a state grant residency licensure to a person who they didn't think was qualified because they did their pre-clinical sciences online. I know- you're going to say that residents are under the supervision of an attending. However, any of you who have rotated at a University hospital know that when a resident wants to write an order, he does not need the seal of approval from his attending. He writes it and the nursing staff on the ward fills it often w/o the signature or verbal ok of an attending. States know this! So, what makes you think that same state will not grant unrestricted licensure to the same resident after completion of his residency program? That is ridiculous. NY will not license IUHS grads. Hence, IUHS grads cannot do residencies in NY! However, if State B licenses residents who graduated from IUHS. Then, they should have no reservation granting unrestricted licensure to that person once he completes his residency requirement. Do you actually think that there are states that have regulations that say, "If you did your pre-clinicals online, you can go ahead and prescribe meds and take care of our state's citizens as a resident for 3-12 years. HOWEVER!!!! If you did your pre-clinicals online, you cannot practice medicine in this state once you finish your residency! Dammit!!" Do you see how ridiculous that is? I know someone will try to dispute this, but c'mon now. Enough is enough! Save your fingers and our minds from your unjustifiable replies.

2. All the IUHS grads I know who applied for licensure have been granted licensure in their states after completing their residencies. I nor anyone from IUHS is going to give their names and locations especially in this forum for obvious reasons.

3. Not all states require physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. However, my state does require that one takes pre-clinical sciences at a medical school. This simply means they will not count your Biochemistry that you took while you were an undergraduate Chemistry major as the Biochem. requirement for state licensure. I have confirmed that fact on several occasions with my state's dept. of professional regulation. Once the IUHS bashers call every state's dept. of professional regulation, they will find that this fact is true for several states. But as you know, they won't for the same reasons they slacked off as undergrads and didn't get accepted into a US med school. Hmmm?

The above are facts based on solid data collection. The rest of the garbage you are reading on here is from a few disgruntled people who have no hard evidence to back up anything they say. So, if you read their replies, all you read are statements like "Your wasting your money. IUHS grads will never get licensed. The administration is unqualified. The school is a sham! Blah Blah Blah." Those comments are almost laughable! The only data that has been presented on this forum that is remotely true is that some states will not license IUHS grads who completed their pre-clinicals online. The key word is "some". The fact is the people who are saying this have only inquired 7-8 states. And, they have the audacity to extrapolate this to the other 40 some states! This is irresponsible and ignorant. I challenge you, as an unbiased reader, to ask Carmen, AZSpectic, the guy from Prague, and anybody else who bashes IUHS to provide you with some solid data, meaning every state's licensing requirements regarding physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. They won't be able to. Because not every state has that written in their regulations. These uninformed individuals will just keep printing assumptions and opinions. PLEASE DO NOT CUT AND PASTE ONE PORTION OF THIS REPLY AND RESPOND TO IT. IF YOU WISH TO DISPUTE THIS REPLY, DISPUTE IT IN IT'S ENTIRETY. STOP EVADING THE MOST IMPORATANT ISSUES I RAISE. Good luck in your future medical education.

1. there is not a shred of your precious DATA in this point. the FACT is that obtaining a resident license is infinitely easier than getting a permanent license in many states. you are obviously not informed on this matter. many states simply require a LIST OF NAMES from the residency program, and they will issue training licenses. in order to get permanent license, the process is much, much more rigorous. so, despite your opinion that it makes no sense, the facts are very different than what you post. do your research, and use your scientific method, socrates. practice what you preach.

2. this, again, is not data. give names and locations. if they are legit and practicing within the law they have nothing to fear. if you refuse it is clear that you are either lying, or they have something to hide. which is it?

3. again, name one state that will accept this. i have called several. what i ask is simple. "will you accept medical education that is completed via distance or online methods for licensure in this state". the answer thus far has always been NO. prove me wrong. name a state. what is your home state? failure to post some DATA again simply shows that you are lying or scared that somebody will blow your cover.

you spout off about "data collection" and "responsible thinking", and then you simply expect us to take you at your word? every challenge has remained UNMET by you. again, put up or shut up.

i am begining to see why you are at IUHS.

maximillian genossa
01-04-2006, 08:24 PM
because they aren't licensed as MD's..they are oral surgeons who are licensed as DDS's

I will be honest with you guys and do not take this as an insult. My perception , and I am pretty sure the perception of iuhsms4 and any reasonable person who can read between the lines of thess threads is that(once the information of thse folks doing residencies or if there is a licnesed grad out there get on this forum) anyone with a grudge against this particular school or its program, will go on to sabotage their efforts and work. It is obvious I mean, why insist so much when we know that evetually that information can go public.

I may have some issues with IUHS and other schools, I may question their operating practices, but in no way I would ever, ever sabotage someone else, that is simply playing dirty, and I do not like to play dirty.

Whats is the real motive behind knowing wich student is doing what at IUHS? Lets level here. Is it for a mere statistical purpose or really to put these folks on the hot spot and humilliate them? I expect a line like, "well, we are doing it for the benefit of the patients and the public..etc" I don't buy that, we have been doing that all over Valumed one way or other.

Another question , why won't we just chill out and see how these residents do and or this alleged licensed grad does before we judge them? Then , we can have an idea how good this program or any program with a basic sciences component work. We cannot assume it won't work until we see results.

If any of us are really up to get someone for the hell of getting them without the opportunity to be listened and present evidence of their competence, it reflects on our characters and it really says the kind of people we truly are.

Again, this is not meant as an insult but as a pause to sit and think what our real motives are.

If any of you have an issue with this posting, PM me, we can discuss this as civilized people in private, not make a circus out of it, after all, aren't we supposed to be educated people and not fanatics?

Cheers,

Max

pardon any typing mistakes, I am very tired. :cry:

neilc
01-04-2006, 08:30 PM
hey max....

i personally would not do a single thing but verify that the grad existed and was licensed, or that the resident was indeed training at the hospital.

the problem is that we CANNOT wait and see what happens, because we don't even know if any of this is real! i am not convinced that IUHS grads of the online program are working in any states. and, i think that if they are, it is due to some transcript "underwording". i think that is why there is that fear. and, frankly, if they are tricking the boards to be working there, and they do get outed and caught, they are in for a world of well deserved trouble.

maximillian genossa
01-04-2006, 08:30 PM
Both of your are starting to get personal and are making a circus out of the subject. None of you are looking good, you are trading shots like soccer fans do in the UK, whats next?

Drop it dudes, you are supposed to be educated and mature people. Take the argument to the private messaging since it is obvious it is now redundant.

If you want to address me about this message, PM me, do not use valuable space here to try to take a shot at me either.








1. there is not a shred of your precious DATA in this point. the FACT is that obtaining a resident license is infinitely easier than getting a permanent license in many states. you are obviously not informed on this matter. many states simply require a LIST OF NAMES from the residency program, and they will issue training licenses. in order to get permanent license, the process is much, much more rigorous. so, despite your opinion that it makes no sense, the facts are very different than what you post. do your research, and use your scientific method, socrates. practice what you preach.

2. this, again, is not data. give names and locations. if they are legit and practicing within the law they have nothing to fear. if you refuse it is clear that you are either lying, or they have something to hide. which is it?

3. again, name one state that will accept this. i have called several. what i ask is simple. "will you accept medical education that is completed via distance or online methods for licensure in this state". the answer thus far has always been NO. prove me wrong. name a state. what is your home state? failure to post some DATA again simply shows that you are lying or scared that somebody will blow your cover.

you spout off about "data collection" and "responsible thinking", and then you simply expect us to take you at your word? every challenge has remained UNMET by you. again, put up or shut up.

i am begining to see why you are at IUHS.

maximillian genossa
01-04-2006, 08:38 PM
However there is no law, that I have seen that says that any school has to disclose how any part of a component on their educational program was done online. That might change in the future.

However, I do know that once you apply for licensing,a license application is an oath statement and a contract between the applicant and the state and if the applicant was required to disclose this on his application, and the applicant does not discloses it or lies, then there is a a serious breach of ethics as well as a serious case of perjury. However, legally, the language must be clear and specific.

Hope this clarifies

Thanks Neil

Max





hey max....

i personally would not do a single thing but verify that the grad existed and was licensed, or that the resident was indeed training at the hospital.

the problem is that we CANNOT wait and see what happens, because we don't even know if any of this is real! i am not convinced that IUHS grads of the online program are working in any states. and, i think that if they are, it is due to some transcript "underwording". i think that is why there is that fear. and, frankly, if they are tricking the boards to be working there, and they do get outed and caught, they are in for a world of well deserved trouble.

neilc
01-04-2006, 08:39 PM
However, prevously I did mention and factored in the equation a student that has not only passed his board tests but who has also performed excellent or well on his clinial rotations and or their residency. I think that those are instances where the student's ability and knowledge can be better evaluated. Provided all this, is he or she still incompetent or banned from licensure just because they did 2 years of basic sciences the non-traditional way?

Your turn.

Disclosure...My statements DO NOT consititute and endorsement to IUHS.

i am sure there are many smart people that can excell in any type of educational environment. i think that it is entirely possible that a few people might do very well in a IUHS type situation.

but, my biggest problem with it is that it is impossible to properly evaluate each and every license applicant individually. that is a very time consuming process. it would be quite subjective. it would be very difficult to do.

so, without the ability to really individualize the licensure process, and to discover these "diamonds in the rough", what do we do?

well, we can do several things....

1. just use the USMLE as a gauge. (i think this is inadequate)
2. use the USMLE and WHO or IMED as a requirement (this is basically the same as 1, so i think it is also inadequate)
3. develop an evaluation system for schools (this could be expensive, but the cost could be shifted to applicant schools. possible, but not likely, IMHO)
4. take advantage of some evaluations that are currently out there, and require at least one approval for a school to be considered in all states. NY, CA and the DOE process are all decent indicators, and would do the trick without additional cost.

i personally would use 1 and 4 together for residency, and then make residency completion and/or board certification good for licensure in all states. or i would use 1 and 3, and simply make the CA process a universal or national requirement, and have the schools pay for the evaluation.

certainly, with this argument, a case can be made that many individuals at lesser schools may well be superior students. but, while it is possible, i think we have to draw a reasonable line somewhere, and make it a fairly simple and easy to enforce process. and, with this process in line, there would be no reason for a person to risk the lesser schools. they would simply cease to exist, and the problems that many students face would disappear to a large degree.

neilc
01-04-2006, 08:42 PM
However there is no law, that I have seen that says that any school has to disclose how any part of a component on their educational program was done online. That might change in the future.

However, I do know that once you apply for licensing,a license application is an oath statement and a contract between the applicant and the state and if the applicant was required to disclose this on his application, and the applicant does not discloses it or lies, then there is a a serious breach of ethics as well as a serious case of perjury. However, legally, the language must be clear and specific.

Hope this clarifies

Thanks Neil

Max

i dont think the lack of the law requiring disclosure on the transcript is at all pertinent. if there is a law prohibiting online education, you should not be applying with that sort of education. whether it is on the transcript or not, the applicant will know that he is violating the written law by working in the state.

the school won't be in trouble. the applicant will. the state has guidelines and the applicant did not follow them. bad news.

maximillian genossa
01-04-2006, 08:55 PM
The lack of law is pertinent and any skilled lawyer can navigate though it with relative ease, they love that. If the language is not specific and the state medical licensing board does not specify it, it is pertinent. As I said, the applicant goes down for perjury if it was required to be disclosed IN THE APPLICATION, an application is a sworn statement.

Cheers,

Max



i dont think the lack of the law requiring disclosure on the transcript is at all pertinent. if there is a law prohibiting online education, you should not be applying with that sort of education. whether it is on the transcript or not, the applicant will know that he is violating the written law by working in the state.

the school won't be in trouble. the applicant will. the state has guidelines and the applicant did not follow them. bad news.

maximillian genossa
01-04-2006, 08:58 PM
"my biggest problem with it is that it is impossible to properly evaluate each and every license applicant individually. that is a very time consuming process. it would be quite subjective. it would be very difficult to do."

That is why we have residency training programs, to properly evaluate candidates. It is the real thing, as good as it gets in terms of judging performance. If they do good and pass, what is the problem then?

Max


i am sure there are many smart people that can excell in any type of educational environment. i think that it is entirely possible that a few people might do very well in a IUHS type situation.

but, my biggest problem with it is that it is impossible to properly evaluate each and every license applicant individually. that is a very time consuming process. it would be quite subjective. it would be very difficult to do.

so, without the ability to really individualize the licensure process, and to discover these "diamonds in the rough", what do we do?

well, we can do several things....

1. just use the USMLE as a gauge. (i think this is inadequate)
2. use the USMLE and WHO or IMED as a requirement (this is basically the same as 1, so i think it is also inadequate)
3. develop an evaluation system for schools (this could be expensive, but the cost could be shifted to applicant schools. possible, but not likely, IMHO)
4. take advantage of some evaluations that are currently out there, and require at least one approval for a school to be considered in all states. NY, CA and the DOE process are all decent indicators, and would do the trick without additional cost.

i personally would use 1 and 4 together for residency, and then make residency completion and/or board certification good for licensure in all states. or i would use 1 and 3, and simply make the CA process a universal or national requirement, and have the schools pay for the evaluation.

certainly, with this argument, a case can be made that many individuals at lesser schools may well be superior students. but, while it is possible, i think we have to draw a reasonable line somewhere, and make it a fairly simple and easy to enforce process. and, with this process in line, there would be no reason for a person to risk the lesser schools. they would simply cease to exist, and the problems that many students face would disappear to a large degree.

neilc
01-04-2006, 10:08 PM
"my biggest problem with it is that it is impossible to properly evaluate each and every license applicant individually. that is a very time consuming process. it would be quite subjective. it would be very difficult to do."

That is why we have residency training programs, to properly evaluate candidates. It is the real thing, as good as it gets in terms of judging performance. If they do good and pass, what is the problem then?

Max

no problem there. but, i don't think that simply passing the USMLE qualifies one for a residency. as mentioned before, there is a level of independence in residency that i think deserves a certain assurance of quality before they get admitted.

iuhsms4
01-05-2006, 12:13 AM
Genossa and others, I suspect that you are seeing the alterior (sp?) motives of Neil and others on this forum. One has to ask himself, why are they so adament about professing that IUHS grads cannot gain licensure in some states. They are relentless in trying to get me or any advocate of IUHS to disclose otherwise private information about graduates. Why? To win or lose an argument? I don't think so.

iuhsms4
01-05-2006, 12:35 AM
I am confident that you will learn from your mistakes and change your method of inquiry.

azskeptic
01-05-2006, 06:56 AM
nothing like getting a degree that you have to look back over your shoulder forever because if states research your studies they find you didn't study on the island. Of course, it doesn't help when they run a google on your school and can't seem to find graduates and the school has been around for quite a while.

neilc
01-05-2006, 08:23 AM
Genossa and others, I suspect that you are seeing the alterior (sp?) motives of Neil and others on this forum. One has to ask himself, why are they so adament about professing that IUHS grads cannot gain licensure in some states. They are relentless in trying to get me or any advocate of IUHS to disclose otherwise private information about graduates. Why? To win or lose an argument? I don't think so.

Neil, IUHS graduates do not have to hide anything. There are several states who do not require physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. I have done my research. You, on the contrary, have only researched and posted information about states who do not license grads from online medical schools. You need to open your mind, get your data, then post replies that are based on factual knowledge.

if you have nothing to hide, answer the challenges. if you know of a state, list it.

otherwise, you carry zero credibility here. nobody seems to be buying what you are trying to sell.

anatomy_guy
01-05-2006, 08:27 AM
Hi Neil and others
I think Neil has made a valid point. If California and New York and the US Department of Education do evaluations, why not have all state medical boards sign on to use these evaluations. Maybe there would be cost sharing in the process as well. Better yet, lets use a number of different factors:

For medical school evaluation, accreditation and validation within US and Canada:

1. Lets use the pass levels of the USMLEs much as US and Canadian Medical Schools already do when the LCME/CACMS accredit schools and factor into their decision whether to place medical schools on probation. For example, CACMS will place a medical school on probation when more than 10-15% (I am not totally sure about the number but it is in place) of its graduates fail MCCQE Part 2. MCCQE Part 1 is taken in the final year of medical school and is like USMLE Step 2 CK, while MCCQE Part 2 is more like USMLE Step 2 CS but is at a level of USMLE Step 3 and is taken usually during the first half of the first year of residency. MCCQE Part 2 involves an OSCE. This validates the medical school as to its efficacy of producing worthy medical student graduates who can practice. The failure rate can be increased to allow for the fact that students being accepted were not the same calibre of accepted students to US and Canadian medical schools. The failure rate though must be published so that there is a method to compare efficacy of various school programs.

2. Use the site visit reports and assessments from New York and California as prima faciae evidence to determine acceptance, accreditation and validation of the medical school as meeting equivalent standards acceptable to US state and Canadian provincial medical boards. Cost of the site visits by both New York and California would be paid by the medical schools as part of their accreditation process much as is currently required for US and Canadian medical schools to do for LCME/CACMS. Also this validates the medical educational aspects such as curriculum, faculty, resources, and clinical experiences.

3. Use the US Department of Education as part of the accreditation process to determine financial worthiness of the institution. This is what US DOE essentially verifies because it determines if various federal grants or loans can be used or guaranteed at these institutions. Very little is actually done to determine the educational efficacy of the institution because this aspect is considered to be under the purview of the local jursidiction such as the state boards of higher education or that nation's government. There is a political issue because education is under local jurisdiction but if federal monies are being spent, how does one evaluate value for money?

For the medical professional applicant:

1. Complete their medical education by graduating with an M.D. and state truthfully how it was acquired. If some of the education was online or through e-learning, this should be stated. e-learning is used by many US and Canadian medical schools. I have been involved in this aspect in a couple of North American institutions so I know this happens. There is nothing wrong with using e-learning but it has to be used appropriately. I have also been consulted by other North American schools about doing this type of work. Clinical experiences must be properly acquired as stated by LCME/CACMS standards. The medical school must be acceptable and accredited as stated above.

2. Pass the USMLE Step 1, 2 CS and CK, and 3 or MCCQE Parts 1 and 2.

3. Complete a ACGME recognised residency or a CFPC or RCPS-C recognised residency and a diploma or statement documenting completion.

4. Pass the Board exams for family practice or the specialty within 2 years of completion of the residency.

Most of these standards are similar to what is expected of current applicants to US state medical boards and Canadian provincial medical societies or colleges. However by tightening the standards, this will force the Carribean medical schools to behave appropriately and demonstrate a level of educational efficacy for its prospective medical students.

Cheers, A_G


i am sure there are many smart people that can excell in any type of educational environment. i think that it is entirely possible that a few people might do very well in a IUHS type situation.

but, my biggest problem with it is that it is impossible to properly evaluate each and every license applicant individually. that is a very time consuming process. it would be quite subjective. it would be very difficult to do.

so, without the ability to really individualize the licensure process, and to discover these "diamonds in the rough", what do we do?

well, we can do several things....

1. just use the USMLE as a gauge. (i think this is inadequate)
2. use the USMLE and WHO or IMED as a requirement (this is basically the same as 1, so i think it is also inadequate)
3. develop an evaluation system for schools (this could be expensive, but the cost could be shifted to applicant schools. possible, but not likely, IMHO)
4. take advantage of some evaluations that are currently out there, and require at least one approval for a school to be considered in all states. NY, CA and the DOE process are all decent indicators, and would do the trick without additional cost.

i personally would use 1 and 4 together for residency, and then make residency completion and/or board certification good for licensure in all states. or i would use 1 and 3, and simply make the CA process a universal or national requirement, and have the schools pay for the evaluation.

certainly, with this argument, a case can be made that many individuals at lesser schools may well be superior students. but, while it is possible, i think we have to draw a reasonable line somewhere, and make it a fairly simple and easy to enforce process. and, with this process in line, there would be no reason for a person to risk the lesser schools. they would simply cease to exist, and the problems that many students face would disappear to a large degree.

neilc
01-05-2006, 08:28 AM
Neil, I have my facts. You don't. You use words like "many states" and "infinetly easier". What is that? I thought I was engaing in discourse with an educated individual. Which states Neil? The applications for residency and licensed physician are almost identical in my state. So, which states are you talking about? And, what does "infinetly easier" mean?

You keep ignoring the fact that not all states require physical attendance for pre-clinical sciences. You even make my case for me by saying (cut and pasted from your own brain)

"i have called several. what i ask is simple. "will you accept medical education that is completed via distance or online methods for licensure in this state". the answer thus far has always been NO."

I am glad you acknowedge that the data you have collected "thus far" from "several states" (not all Neil, that's the part you are not getting my friend!! Jesus, WAKE UP!!!) has shown ineligibility of licensure for IUHS online grads. But, you didn't finish the job, Neil! I had a patient today who presented with fatigue. I ordered a CBC in addition to a battery of other tests and found she had anemia. Using your way of thinking, I should had sent her home with iron pills and called it a day. However, I collected all available data and found she had a perforated ulcer and sent her to OR immediately. Neil, I hope that you will not practice medicine the same way you have attempted to argue this topic. I am confident that you will learn from your mistakes and change your method of inquiry.
are you for real??????????

YOU are the one claiming that IUHS is good in a state. i am simply asking you to name ONE!!!!! i have called almost all of the state boards in the course of my education, and asked many, many questions. EVERY TIME i asked about distance education, i was told it was UNACCEPTABLE!!! now, you expect me to ignore the research i have already done, and simply trust your word?

you keep claiming that you want DATA to back up what is being said....well, my freind, go back a bit on this post. you are the one making claims that IUHS has grads and grads can get licensed. you made these claims before i ever posted on here!!! i called **. so, prove it or shut up! you have never posted one, single verifiable fact to support your position. yet you have the gall to say that i do not use DATA in my arguments? your arguments are 100% opinion. well, maybe 99% opinion and 1% stupid anecdote about anemia that you read out of your latest text.

my god, you are really begining to frighten me. are you really that clueless?

all we are asking for is the state that you already say is ok for IUHS grads. simply post a ONE WORD reply with that state. can't do it, can you'?

neilc
01-05-2006, 08:36 AM
i have an idea...who wants to share the work with me?

we can simply send out a mass email to the state boards to find the answer out. since somebody who claims the state exists, but won't tell us which one it is.

we can write something like this:

"it has recently come to my attention that some states in the US may allow students of distance learning medical programs into clinical education programs in thier states hospitals. additionally, some states may actually recognize internet medical education from offshore schools as valid.

i would like to know your states policy on whether or not it accepts students from distance learning, offshore medical schools, or whether it would accept graduates from such schools for licensure."

pehaps, at the end we could even post a list of schools that are know to offer distance education.

perhaps azskeptic even has some answers on this? have you done something like this?

anatomy_guy
01-05-2006, 08:50 AM
Hi Neil
Lets start a list of states that do not allow "online learning" for basic medical sciences per se.

I know of three states that absolutely do not allow programs such as IUHS using totally "online learning" for basic sciences.
They are as follows:
1. Michigan. I called the state medical board. It is on the application form for a full independent license. No mention is made on the educational license application.

2. California. I called the representative who handles these matters for State Medical Board and talked to her personally. PM me if you want this person's name. It is on the Medical Board of California website.

3. New York. It is on the State of New York Office of Professions for Licensing to Practice medicine. More specifics when I can download the pdf file.

I will upload other states as I go along with the appropriate contacts.
Cheers, A_G


if you have nothing to hide, answer the challenges. if you know of a state, list it.

otherwise, you carry zero credibility here. nobody seems to be buying what you are trying to sell.

anatomy_guy
01-05-2006, 08:55 AM
This went up twice so I am editing this now. Neil jumped in with a good idea. I am not saying that e-learning is not valid for medical education but one does have to meet their state's educational requirements to be licensed in that state so lets have a list put together of what is allowed. Only then can one determine if an IUHS graduate from the online program can really be licensed in North America. I will add more states as I get the information together.
Cheers, A_G

medox
01-05-2006, 08:58 AM
Concerning this issue of actually attending the school for the basic sciences...what about those students who rarely if ever actually attend class but instead just get the notes (usually online from the class website or through some other means) and just sit home and study and then show up for exams. That's almost like what's going on here.

I knew a few people at US schools who did that and were disciplined for their non-attendence during the first 2 years and were written up in their school records. So when it comes to licensing does that mean they're screwed since the licensing board gets access to their school records when evaluating them and will see they didn't physically attend during the first 2 years?

medox
01-05-2006, 08:58 AM
duplicate post, see above.

azskeptic
01-05-2006, 10:50 AM
Hi Neil
Lets start a list of states that do not allow "online learning" for basic medical sciences per se.

I know of three states that absolutely do not allow programs such as IUHS using totally "online learning" for basic sciences.
They are as follows:
1. Michigan. I called the state medical board. It is on the application form for a full independent license. No mention is made on the educational license application.

2. California. I called the representative who handles these matters for State Medical Board and talked to her personally. PM me if you want this person's name. It is on the Medical Board of California website.

3. New York. It is on the State of New York Office of Professions for Licensing to Practice medicine. More specifics when I can download the pdf file.

I will upload other states as I go along with the appropriate contacts.
Cheers, A_G Indiana, Alabama, Oregon, Michigan

maximillian genossa
01-05-2006, 11:24 AM
In order to be fair we have to be specific. I suggest the following langauge:

":it has recently come to my attention that some states in the US may allow students of BASIC SCIENCES distance learning medical programs into clinical education programs in thier states hospitals. additionally, some states may actually recognize BASIC SCIENCES online medical education from offshore schools as valid."

i would like to know your states policy on whether or not it accepts students from distance learning during the BASIC SCIENCES COMPONENT, from offshore medical schools, or whether it would accept graduates from such schools for licensure."

Believe it or not, when we use the term online or distance education SOME may assume it was for the entire education, as ridiculous it sounds, but I have spoken to at least two medical board representatives that were under that impression and I had to clarify myself.

Just my .02 cents

Cheers to all

Max




i have an idea...who wants to share the work with me?

we can simply send out a mass email to the state boards to find the answer out. since somebody who claims the state exists, but won't tell us which one it is.

we can write something like this:

"it has recently come to my attention that some states in the US may allow students of distance learning medical programs into clinical education programs in thier states hospitals. additionally, some states may actually recognize internet medical education from offshore schools as valid.

i would like to know your states policy on whether or not it accepts students from distance learning, offshore medical schools, or whether it would accept graduates from such schools for licensure."

pehaps, at the end we could even post a list of schools that are know to offer distance education.

perhaps azskeptic even has some answers on this? have you done something like this?

neilc
01-05-2006, 12:02 PM
Indiana, Alabama, Oregon, Michigan

hey az! are these all the states that you know of, or just the ones you checked with? i imagine that with your background, you likely have far better info than i do

neil

neilc
01-05-2006, 12:03 PM
Hi Neil and others
I think Neil has made a valid point. If California and New York and the US Department of Education do evaluations, why not have all state medical boards sign on to use these evaluations. Maybe there would be cost sharing in the process as well. Better yet, lets use a number of different factors:

For medical school evaluation, accreditation and validation within US and Canada:

1. Lets use the pass levels of the USMLEs much as US and Canadian Medical Schools already do when the LCME/CACMS accredit schools and factor into their decision whether to place medical schools on probation. For example, CACMS will place a medical school on probation when more than 10-15% (I am not totally sure about the number but it is in place) of its graduates fail MCCQE Part 2. MCCQE Part 1 is taken in the final year of medical school and is like USMLE Step 2 CK, while MCCQE Part 2 is more like USMLE Step 2 CS but is at a level of USMLE Step 3 and is taken usually during the first half of the first year of residency. MCCQE Part 2 involves an OSCE. This validates the medical school as to its efficacy of producing worthy medical student graduates who can practice. The failure rate can be increased to allow for the fact that students being accepted were not the same calibre of accepted students to US and Canadian medical schools. The failure rate though must be published so that there is a method to compare efficacy of various school programs.

2. Use the site visit reports and assessments from New York and California as prima faciae evidence to determine acceptance, accreditation and validation of the medical school as meeting equivalent standards acceptable to US state and Canadian provincial medical boards. Cost of the site visits by both New York and California would be paid by the medical schools as part of their accreditation process much as is currently required for US and Canadian medical schools to do for LCME/CACMS. Also this validates the medical educational aspects such as curriculum, faculty, resources, and clinical experiences.

3. Use the US Department of Education as part of the accreditation process to determine financial worthiness of the institution. This is what US DOE essentially verifies because it determines if various federal grants or loans can be used or guaranteed at these institutions. Very little is actually done to determine the educational efficacy of the institution because this aspect is considered to be under the purview of the local jursidiction such as the state boards of higher education or that nation's government. There is a political issue because education is under local jurisdiction but if federal monies are being spent, how does one evaluate value for money?

For the medical professional applicant:

1. Complete their medical education by graduating with an M.D. and state truthfully how it was acquired. If some of the education was online or through e-learning, this should be stated. e-learning is used by many US and Canadian medical schools. I have been involved in this aspect in a couple of North American institutions so I know this happens. There is nothing wrong with using e-learning but it has to be used appropriately. I have also been consulted by other North American schools about doing this type of work. Clinical experiences must be properly acquired as stated by LCME/CACMS standards. The medical school must be acceptable and accredited as stated above.

2. Pass the USMLE Step 1, 2 CS and CK, and 3 or MCCQE Parts 1 and 2.

3. Complete a ACGME recognised residency or a CFPC or RCPS-C recognised residency and a diploma or statement documenting completion.

4. Pass the Board exams for family practice or the specialty within 2 years of completion of the residency.

Most of these standards are similar to what is expected of current applicants to US state medical boards and Canadian provincial medical societies or colleges. However by tightening the standards, this will force the Carribean medical schools to behave appropriately and demonstrate a level of educational efficacy for its prospective medical students.

Cheers, A_G

well put, i agree completely.

azskeptic
01-05-2006, 12:08 PM
Indiana, Alabama, Oregon, Michigan It has been a while since I've done an update. Think it would be a service if someone wrote,as max suggested, to each of the boards and see what is current thinking. But in reality one doesn't know what will happen until they apply and that is the rub for distance online programs.

iuhsms4
01-05-2006, 01:51 PM
Please pm me if you have any legitimate questions regarding my experiences at IUHS. Thanks.

lmoliver
01-05-2006, 02:03 PM
Neil,

You still cannot say with any degree of certainity that EVERY state in the USA requires physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. That's the point, my friend. You simply do not have sufficient data to prove your claim. Reply to that point! Admit it finally! We are all waiting!!!!!

On the contrary, I have called my state's dept. of prof. regulation and looked at the state's licensing requirements. No where does it say that physical attendance is required. So, if it doesn't state that, why should one disclose how they acquired their education. Do you think I am stupid enough to disclose the name of my state to YOU? That would be too easy, Neil. But, you are used to that, aren't you. You are used to not having to work hard to attain information. If I gave my state's name to you, you most likely would call and harass my state's board with questions and suggestions that they should not be wasting there time answering. These folks are too busy to deal with a person who is just looking for conflict. Somebody on this forum came up with a good idea. You can research requirements for each state online. I hope you will do that for EVERY state Neil before spouting of untruths. Once you do and realize, "Gee, maybe some states don't require physical attendance", I hope you will leave it at that. Also, I hope you will post truths about IUHS with the same diligence you have posted lies. That would only be fair.

Folks, do we really want to start going down the following road? if you answer yes to any of these. Ask yourself, truly why????

1. Should applicants begin submitting attendance records for every Biochem class they "physically attended"?
2. Should applicants who attended Harvard, OSU, and other medical school who incorporate online learning have to begin submitting detailed time sheets describing how many hours they spent online and/or in the classroom in order to get credit for each class they took during pre-clinicals?
3, What % of pre-clinical course hours should states allow to be taken online? How should they regulate and check that? Would time contraints be an issue?

Neil, the fact still remains that you haven't been able to provide sufficient data from EVERY state in the US to justify your claim that IUHS online grads will not be able to gain licensure in ANY state. I am only concerned about licensure requirements in my home state. That's all. And, I am confident that I will gain licensure in my state. It really doesn't matter what you think about that, Neil. I don't care. Also, I am not going diclose any information about my state because you need to do your own homework if you want to continue making false statements. I am not going to do it for you. I suspect you are used to taking short-cuts. However, I refuse to exacerbate your laziness by providing names of states that would only require you to simply check online or with a phone call. Nope! You need to find them on your own, Pal. Then draw conclusions.

However, what does matter, is that you continue to make false statements regarding IUHS without having sufficient data to back up your claims. That's it, Neil. It's very simple! When you finally inquire every state's medical board, you will too find that some states do not require physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. Then, I hope you will begin to post truths about IUHS with the same diligence and tenacity you have posted lies! Watch folks, HE WILL NOT RESPOND TO THE ABOVE STATEMENT. OR- HE WILL BEGIN TO TRY RECRUITING PEOPLE TO DO THE WORK FOR HIM.

iuhsms4, my friend, please focus. What is your home state? What letter does it start with? Can you give us a hint?

maximillian genossa
01-05-2006, 02:06 PM
"in reality one doesn't know what will happen until they apply and that is the rub for distance online programs."....absolutely correct!





It has been a while since I've done an update. Think it would be a service if someone wrote,as max suggested, to each of the boards and see what is current thinking. But in reality one doesn't know what will happen until they apply and that is the rub for distance online programs.

maximillian genossa
01-05-2006, 02:09 PM
I agree 100%, it can't be better than that idea.





well put, i agree completely.

iuhsms4
01-05-2006, 02:11 PM
lmoliver- You read my entire post and that's all you have to say?? LOL Folks, I hope you see what we're dealing with here. I noticed many people view these threads and do not reply. I encourage you to read these threads and reply. You will clearly see the alterior motives and lies being broadcasted on this forum.

iuhsms4
01-05-2006, 02:17 PM
I hope everyone is having a good new year.

lmoliver
01-05-2006, 02:29 PM
lmoliver- You read my entire post and that's all you have to say?? LOL Folks, I hope you see what we're dealing with here. I noticed many people view these threads and do not reply. I encourage you to read these threads and reply. You will clearly see the alterior motives and lies being broadcasted on this forum.

Another person looking for a short-cut. No, I will not disclose the names of any states who do not require physical attendance because I am not claiming that EVERY state denies licensure to online med students. It's very simple, if you make that claim, then PROVE IT with sufficient data. If you can't, then keep your mouth shut until such time you can. Which as of now, you won't be able to because it is simply NOT TRUE!
C'mon, just a little hint. Do they have a baseball team? Does it start with A? What timezone is it in?

iuhsms4
01-05-2006, 02:40 PM
Good luck in your future academic and professional endeavors.

lmoliver
01-05-2006, 02:48 PM
I hope an unbiased reader of this thread sees what is going on here. lmoliver is obviously not a medical student or doc. Otherwise, he would be able to read my posts which he obviously has difficulty doing or has a learning disability which affects his expressive and recpetive language skills. Nevertheless, if I can be of any help to you, lmoliver, in regards to increasing your language skills, I will try to oblige. However, please do not reply negatively to my posts unless you are able to address relevant issues. Unfortunately, that takes higher level cognitive skills, like evaluation and synthesis, and I am doubtful that you have acquired that level of thinking. Good luck in your future academic and professional endeavors.

Is that a "No?" We already know it isn't Alabama. Can we rule out Alaska? Does it start with a C? I am not trying to be negative, just figure out which state(s) might be willing to license a graduate from iuhs, that's all. Let's not make fun of my learning disabilities, shall we. That's not nice, iuhsms4.

schoolagain
01-05-2006, 03:21 PM
I can not believe these are future physicians replying on this thread. IUHS is defending his school and he has taken many steps to ensure that he will be a licensed physician. What do you care what state he wants to practice in? Look out for yourselves. What if state boards decide to look at squatter schools, schools that produce physicians in which the students can't even practice in the country where the school is chartered. Shall we ask state boards to look at that? Or how about prerequisites that need to be completed before attending medical school. The long and short of it is that you are a carribean grad, who is looked down upon by many US facilities. So.... you want to go ahead a make yourselves look worse in the eyes of state officials. Look at you bickering and posturing about which school is best and who can get licensed and where. Let the state boards determine who is suitable for licensure on an individual basis. Grow up people!!!! Act like the professional doctors that you wish to be.

lmoliver
01-05-2006, 03:32 PM
I can not believe these are future physicians replying on this thread. IUHS is defending his school and he has taken many steps to ensure that he will be a licensed physician. What do you care what state he wants to practice in? Look out for yourselves. What if state boards decide to look at squatter schools, schools that produce physicians in which the students can't even practice in the country where the school is chartered. Shall we ask state boards to look at that? Or how about prerequisites that need to be completed before attending medical school. The long and short of it is that you are a carribean grad, who is looked down upon by many US facilities. So.... you want to go ahead a make yourselves look worse in the eyes of state officials. Look at you bickering and posturing about which school is best and who can get licensed and where. Let the state boards determine who is suitable for licensure on an individual basis. Grow up people!!!! Act like the professional doctors that you wish to be.

I don't care what state he get licensed or practices in. I want to know for myself. Thank you for supplying the semi-obligatory "grow up and act your age" post to this discussion.

iuhsms4
01-05-2006, 03:37 PM
Schoolagain, nicely put.

lmoliver, why do you care? Are you planning on attending IUHS? The only reason I said anything at all regarding this topic is because I am tired of people making untrue statements about IUHS, which may ultimately affect their reputation, without having adequate data to support the statements. I have simply exposed the untruths being spread on this forum.

lmoliver
01-05-2006, 04:07 PM
Yes, I would consider it, if I knew for a fact I could get licensed and practice medicine. That's what you are missing, I'm not bashing you.

iuhsms4
01-05-2006, 05:56 PM
lmoliver,

Then I would say to apply if IUHS is a program that is suitable to your needs. No school can guarantee licensure to any student. If they do, they are lying.

medox
01-05-2006, 11:14 PM
Genossa, can you give insight into the situation below since it has relevance to what's been talked about in this thread about physical attendance for the basic sciences:

Concerning this issue of actually attending the school for the basic sciences...what about those students who rarely if ever actually attend class but instead just get the notes (usually online from the class website or through some other means) and just sit home and study and then show up for exams. That's almost like what's going on here.

I knew a few people at US schools who did that and were disciplined for their non-attendence during the first 2 years and were written up in their school records. So when it comes to licensing does that mean they're screwed since the licensing board gets access to their school records when evaluating them and will see they didn't physically attend during the first 2 years?

sheikh1
01-05-2006, 11:30 PM
Genossa, can you give insight into the situation below since it has relevance to what's been talked about in this thread about physical attendance for the basic sciences:

Concerning this issue of actually attending the school for the basic sciences...what about those students who rarely if ever actually attend class but instead just get the notes (usually online from the class website or through some other means) and just sit home and study and then show up for exams. That's almost like what's going on here.

I knew a few people at US schools who did that and were disciplined for their non-attendence during the first 2 years and were written up in their school records. So when it comes to licensing does that mean they're screwed since the licensing board gets access to their school records when evaluating them and will see they didn't physically attend during the first 2 years?
In my school if you are not physicaly in class for eight days, you are out.

MDPhD
01-06-2006, 07:01 AM
In my school if you are not physicaly in class for eight days, you are out.

Which Kinder Garden Medical School do you go to?

teratos
01-06-2006, 07:17 AM
Which Kinder Garden Medical School do you go to?

Attendance is a requirement for many loan companies. G

sheikh1
01-06-2006, 07:35 AM
Which Kinder Garden Medical School do you go to?
Attendandts is requ......in medical school, in all medical schools that is; not just mine. Carib...medical school is my school.

medox
01-06-2006, 12:02 PM
Attendance is a requirement for many loan companies. G

Half-time to full-time enrollment is a requirement for most medical student loans.

Which loan companies are you talking about that have an attendance requirement?

maximillian genossa
01-06-2006, 12:09 PM
It really depends on trhe school policy. Some schools have little tolerance for this, others have more tolerance. I do know many friends of mine who have attended different schools in the US and have skipped class for most of the time and devoted that time to study and did very well and are either practicing physicians or are about to end their residence training. Of course they all have something in common: never missed the anatomy lab. I know of another one who attended a school in Texas, yes, Texas and managed to work as a security guard full time during basic sciences and is now an OB-GYN. Of course if his school would have found out he would have been kicked out but he managed to cover it up. I could care less what he did.

Bottom line, depends on the school and I personally do not pay too much attention to this because a medical student proves him or herself during clinical rotations and residency training. Any intelligent well disciplined person can pass a standarized board test. Now, when it comes time to hands on practice, that is when you separate the pro's from the amateurs.

I do not know how licensing boards look at this, to be honest if I tell you one thing or other on those cases you quoted, I would be lying.

Cheers

Max








Genossa, can you give insight into the situation below since it has relevance to what's been talked about in this thread about physical attendance for the basic sciences:

Concerning this issue of actually attending the school for the basic sciences...what about those students who rarely if ever actually attend class but instead just get the notes (usually online from the class website or through some other means) and just sit home and study and then show up for exams. That's almost like what's going on here.

I knew a few people at US schools who did that and were disciplined for their non-attendence during the first 2 years and were written up in their school records. So when it comes to licensing does that mean they're screwed since the licensing board gets access to their school records when evaluating them and will see they didn't physically attend during the first 2 years?

anatomy_guy
01-06-2006, 12:37 PM
Dear iuhsms4
This is a discussion forum. It is also a cooperative work. Please behave accordingly and remove your language that borders on personal attacks. Also, please stop using capital letters as if to shout from a whole sentence. We understand your point. I am saying this as someone who is a participant in this discussion forum and would like to have a reasonable discussion. Discussion is also a cooperative effort. By yelling or shouting, one does not make their point any better. Enough said.

Genossa has asked for useful valid discussion on various points. Lets do that first. Neil and Azceptic as well as myself have started to make this effort. I hope we will also provide the reference for our findings so others can see that we have done our homework. Once the list is complete, maybe the moderator can post it as a sticky for everyone to see.

In answer to attendance, you should read the application for licensure for most states. The form verifying your education and signed by an official of the medical school, that awarded your MD and provided your medical education, states that you have attended and completed a certain set of courses or clinical clerkships. To receive credit for clinical clerkships, it has been that you must be physically and mentally(:rolleyes:) present for the entire clerkship! As for the basic sciences component or non-clinical components, the legal question is "What is meant by attendance?" Do you have to be physically present on a campus or can you do some of this education online or by e-learning? How much supervision is required for e-learning to be effective and considered equivalent to attendance or does satisfactory completion of the course equate to attendance? Is having a mentor considered proper academic supervision? Therefore this is the educational and legal question. iuhsms4, please do not argue about miniscule points in these statements. Please look at the global issues involved. If you are a consummate health care professional, you would debate the merits of these global issues.

Applicants from LCME/CACMS and AOA medical schools do not have to detail their course hours spent in lecture or online because this is done via central internet data repositories at AAMC headquarters for LCME/CACMS schools and AACOMS headquarters for AOA schools. These data repositories collect information on the number of hours spent in each course, and how many are spent by lecture, lab, clinical exposure, demonstration, small group study, problem based sessions, etc. The database would also be able to record what is being done online. They also record who the instructors are. The database has a lot of information so one can do a lot of datamining.

The time constraints required to determine how much time has been spent online is very minimal as one can get a report from learning management programs such as WebCT, Blackboard and others on who has been online, when were they online, how long were they online, did they upload or download material, were they in discussion, number of responses posted, time idle, time spent on formative assessment, and other data as requested. It is not perfect but I use this in my courses to see if I should bump a student up in grade from C+ to B- if they are borderline and have done an appropriate level of work online and demonstrated a slightly higher of level of knowledge that exams sometimes don't measure very well. I also use e-portfolios to have students reflect on their learning. It is fascinating and interesting to see how many times students actually tell you truthfully how they have performed in the course!!

This is my 2 cents Canadian.
Cheers, A_G


Neil,

You still cannot say with any degree of certainity that EVERY state in the USA requires physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. That's the point, my friend. You simply do not have sufficient data to prove your claim. Reply to that point! Admit it finally! We are all waiting!!!!!

On the contrary, I have called my state's dept. of prof. regulation and looked at the state's licensing requirements. No where does it say that physical attendance is required. So, if it doesn't state that, why should one disclose how they acquired their education. Do you think I am stupid enough to disclose the name of my state to YOU? That would be too easy, Neil. But, you are used to that, aren't you. You are used to not having to work hard to attain information. If I gave my state's name to you, you most likely would call and harass my state's board with questions and suggestions that they should not be wasting there time answering. These folks are too busy to deal with a person who is just looking for conflict. Somebody on this forum came up with a good idea. You can research requirements for each state online. I hope you will do that for EVERY state Neil before spouting off untruths. Once you do and realize, "Gee, maybe some states don't require physical attendance", I hope you will leave it at that. Also, I hope you will post truths about IUHS with the same diligence you have posted lies. That would only be fair.

Folks, do we really want to start going down the following road? if you answer yes to any of these. Ask yourself, truly why????

1. Should applicants begin submitting attendance records for every Biochem class they "physically attended"?
2. Should applicants who attended Harvard, OSU, and other medical school who incorporate online learning have to begin submitting detailed time sheets describing how many hours they spent online and/or in the classroom in order to get credit for each class they took during pre-clinicals?
3, What % of pre-clinical course hours should states allow to be taken online? How should they regulate and check that? Would time contraints be an issue?

Neil, the fact still remains that you haven't been able to provide sufficient data from EVERY state in the US to justify your claim that IUHS online grads will not be able to gain licensure in ANY state. I am only concerned about licensure requirements in my home state. That's all. And, I am confident that I will gain licensure in my state. It really doesn't matter what you think about that, Neil. I don't care. Also, I am not going diclose any information about my state because you need to do your own homework if you want to continue making false statements. I am not going to do it for you. I suspect you are used to taking short-cuts. However, I refuse to exacerbate your laziness by providing names of states that would only require you to simply check online or with a phone call. Nope! You need to find them on your own, Pal. Then, and only then draw conclusions. Anything less than that is irresponsible and provides only biased, confounded assumptions.

However, what does matter, is that you continue to make false statements regarding IUHS without having sufficient data to back up your claims. That's it, Neil. It's very simple! When you finally inquire every state's medical board, you will too find that some states do not require physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. Then, I hope you will begin to post truths about IUHS with the same diligence and tenacity you have posted lies!

Watch folks, HE WILL NOT RESPOND TO THE ABOVE STATEMENT. OR- HE WILL BEGIN TO TRY RECRUITING PEOPLE TO DO THE WORK FOR HIM. Either way, I hope you finally start reading some true facts about IUHS from Neil and others. Please pm me if you have any legitimate questions regarding my experiences at IUHS. Thanks.

neilc
01-06-2006, 03:07 PM
hey, the fact remains that you have yet to post a single verifiable state. so, it looks like you are even shorter on the data than i. i have posted the states that i remember do not accept IUHS. you claim at least one state is good, yet you cannot prove it.

don't worry, though. i am crafting an email to send to all the state boards. it will mention the known online schools, ask if online curriculum for the entire basic sciences is acceptable for licensure, and it will make all of the boards aware of the fact that there may 1) be students of these schools treating patients in the states, and 2) that the schools may not clearly define "online" courses on the transcrips. further, it will advise the states that if online curriculum is prohibited, all student transcripts of these schools should be very carefully reviewed.

i will post the email and all replies when i get around to sending it. pretty busy in clinic the last few days....

sheikh1
01-06-2006, 03:15 PM
There is already credibility problem with IMG schools, the internet basic science thing is a nail on the coffin.....

medox
01-06-2006, 03:38 PM
I may have some issues with IUHS and other schools, I may question their operating practices, but in no way I would ever, ever sabotage someone else, that is simply playing dirty, and I do not like to play dirty.

Whats is the real motive behind knowing wich student is doing what at IUHS? Lets level here. Is it for a mere statistical purpose or really to put these folks on the hot spot and humilliate them? I expect a line like, "well, we are doing it for the benefit of the patients and the public..etc" I don't buy that, we have been doing that all over Valumed one way or other.


To which neilc replied...



hey max....

i personally would not do a single thing but verify that the grad existed and was licensed, or that the resident was indeed training at the hospital.


...but now



i am crafting an email to send to all the state boards. it will mention the known online schools, ask if online curriculum for the entire basic sciences is acceptable for licensure, and it will make all of the boards aware of the fact that there may 1) be students of these schools treating patients in the states, and 2) that the schools may not clearly define "online" courses on the transcrips. further, it will advise the states that if online curriculum is prohibited, all student transcripts of these schools should be very carefully reviewed.


neil, what is your agenda really? Do you enjoy playing with the lives and futures of students at different schools? Please don't use the "I'm just the messanger/looking out for the students/protecting patients" excuse. It's not good for the karma to mess with the livelihoods of people trying their best to make it in this profession.

Disclaimer: I am not a student at either of the two schools that you have an unusually high interest in.

Just please think of what you do before you do it, because it can do more harm to others than any good you may think it will do.

neilc
01-06-2006, 04:34 PM
i am not using any grads names at all, in fact i never recieved it.

i am simply verifying that state boards will license grads of internet programs. if they don't think it is kosher, they should know that some students and schools may be trying to decieve them. i was challenged by a current student to do this, so i will. he has refused to give a single state name to verify with, so i will simply send a mass email to them all. if you have a problem, you should address the iuhs student on this board that demanded i do this, and that refused to supply info he supposedly has.

i am not playing with the students, nor do i have an agenda. i believe that internet schools will not give you a reasonable chance to get a license, based on current laws. so, i am verifying my belief. simple.

neilc
01-06-2006, 04:38 PM
btw, i am curious as to why you think this is a bad idea? legit schools are not trying to skirt any rules, and the boards are all familiar with international graduates. simple clarification of the rules is only a problem if somebody is hiding behind something. i would have been more than happy to simply verify with a state that IUHS is ok, if that state name was provided.

to me, the fact that he is scared to post the name leads me to believe that he is not being forthright, or that the state may simply not be aware of the problem. that is not kosher with me. i don't want to sabotage any students. however, more important than that, is that i don't want current students to sabotage potential students. they claim a state is good, fine, prove it. if they can't, also fine. but, it they challenge me to do the research for them, then i don't have a lot of choice. and, i am not going to help them by candy coating what is going on and what i am looking for. it is only good info if it is aquired by direct and precise means. and, if these students are on here misleading, then the states and the citizens have a right to know what is going on.

sheikh1
01-06-2006, 05:05 PM
Untill I see graduates who licensed in the U.S., I will not believe any of this.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 05:58 PM
Anatomyguy, et.al,

Point well taken. I was just frustrated by the lies and incriminations on this forum. Most of my "capital letter" words were words that Neil and others were disregarding during their replies to my postings. However, I aknowledge your request and will not use caps in the future. Also, I will not make any derogatory personal comments.

By the way, do you see any current IUHS students on here or any other forum trying to "bring down" other schools?

Good luck in your future academic and professional careers.

neilc
01-06-2006, 06:18 PM
first of all, i don't think that many of us are adequately trained in reading the laws and regulations to make accurate determinations. second, the question as to whether physical attendence is required is a significant one. anybody interested should make a direct, specific inquiry as to whether it is ok. otherwise, an unpleasant surprise may await them come licensure time. it is absolutely foolish to go to a med school on-line under the assumption that everything will be ok, based only on an amatuer interpretation of the published licensing regulations. there is typically a LOT of grey area, and lots of room for interpretation by the state med boards with these regulations.

i am NOT ineterested in sabotaging anything or anybody. i AM interested in potential students being exposed to reality, devoid of optimistim. they need to be exposed to the conservative, worst case view of what may be in order to make an informed decision.

i love how it turns to a "you are bashing" or "bringing down" IUHS. that is simply not the case. the problem is that this is a new, untried curriculum with ZERO verifiable success stories. to have somebody come on here and claim the degree is valid without proof, to have somebody come on here and claim that data need to be shown (when he refuses to show his own data) and to have someone come on here and attempt to justify IUHS as a valid option for US students is certainly going to be viewed with skepticism at best.

draftingthe email was simply a response to your refusal to provide data. if you don't like it, you can do the research yourself, and post what you have written and what the replies are. since you obviously won't do this, i will.

neilc
01-06-2006, 06:45 PM
Remember if you rock a boat one way, it will inevitably rock back toward you. .

i love these quotes....

how is "rocking the boat" going to affect anybody? the fact is, that if you attend a legit school, any amount of investigation will not adversely affect you. if you are trying to sneak through unnoticed, you may have issues. if the state laws seem ambiguous, clarification will not hurt the schools that are providing useful degrees. it may, however, bring some issues to light that you are either ignoring or trying to get around....

if IUHS online curriculum is ok, i will be the first to post where. i will also certainly not be complaining about it. i think that would be great. but, if it is not good, i think accurate info should be out there. and, if it you consider it ok simply because nobody has asked difficult questions...well, i just hope that you didn't bank your future on something so tenuous.

Ming
01-06-2006, 06:47 PM
well you certainly are eloquently evasive. You are not a faculty member. You are a student. However, you do give lecturers, probably in return for tuition fees or simple payment. You do then fall into the category I was describing. Usually IUHS students have financial problems one way or another or they are above the age of usual acceptance at regular medical schools or poor pre-med performance. Which are you?

You have yet to inform us as to your incentive to attend such a school with a bad past and reputation. This school was restricted from doing business in Florida due to fraudulant activities with another caribbean medical school. If you had done your homework on the school you would have discovered this information and I would be interested to know what made you decide to attend in the face of this background.

When you describe the actions of medical residents and then describe the assumed perception of state medical boards, I am very surprised at this kind of naivity. State licensing boards all over north america have the power to make whatever rules and restrictions they choose. I can give you an example that you may not believe.

A student who went to a regular medical student chose to do an internship that by-passed the rotating family medicine rotations. That was allowable. The student then did a full pediatric speciality. The student then did a subspeciality in pediatric haematology. The student then did further training for pediatric haematology oncology. This student decided to live in another state. During the time he was looking for a position to match his specific training, he decided to apply for part-time work in a family medicine clinic. The state licencing boards would not allow this person to see adults for something as simple as a sore throat !
This detailed annecdote was a response to your idea that the state licencing boards couldn't be so stupid not to licence a person because of some of their past experience. Don't count on it.

In response to your information about residents obtaining a temporary resident licence, I would mention that they received that licence without the state's knowledge that they did an on-line pre-clinical basic sciences.

If you and IUHS adminstrators are so certain none of this is a problem, I am not so sure why you are worried about their background being found out. It will be you know. These things don't go away, they just come back to haunt you at a later date.

You are correct that all the states do not require physical attendance. I have contacted all the states and if you wish, I would be happy to elicite for each and every one of them. However, you may not have asked the correct questions. When I had full disclosure questions with them, they respond that they WILL be requiring physical attendance. Let's compare notes. I am not bashing you, I am fully prepared to go head to head in this data collection you are requesting. Take fifty paces in the opposite direction, draw your pen and name your state. Fair??

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 07:29 PM
Neil, the regulations regarding pre-clinical science requirements do not require an attorney to understand. They are straight-forward and concise. Also, IUHS does require physical attendance at their campus prior to beginning clinical roatations. If anyone is interested, you should call their admissions department about the requirements for admissions, clinical rotations, and graduation. The fact is other US medical schools also have online components to their pre-clinical science currriculum. In the age of technology, it is unlikely that states will begin mandating maximum allowance of online hours toward credit in a particular course. Students and physicians that have done part or all of their pre-clinicals online have, thus far, proven to be competent physicians. It's 2006 Neil. You know very little about IUHS's online curriculum. However, you assume it is not good. Have you seen the IUHS online curriculum of 2006? Have you attended any lectures online through IUHS? Do you know of any stats that support your assumption that IUHS's online curriculum isn't adequate and thorough? Specifically, how is Harvard's online component different from IUHS's? Be specific in your answer, please. No generalities. How many hours do Harvard med students spend online compared to IUHS students? Again, be specific. Don't say, "I doubt that....., I suspect that..... I assume that....." Get you facts. Then, once you have all available data, than you can engage in responsible, intellectual discourse regarding online education. The fact is you don't know much about it. However, you clearly feel as though you can criticize a concept and curriculum you know very little about. I invite others to reply.

IUHS is new school who does have a good track record of providing a solid pre-clinincal medical education, arranging clinical rotations for it's students, sponsoring students to sit for all of their boards, and assisting in securing residency positions for students who did their pre-clinicals online and on-campus. However, the fact is that the majority of their graduates began residencies less than 3 years ago. Hence, they have not had the opportunity to apply for unrestricted licensure. However, they are all doing well in their respective programs. There is no reason why any should have a problem gaining licensure in some states. A person to say with any degree of certainty that IUHS grads will not get licensed in any state is simply untrue and unjustifiable. Unless, of course, you have a crystal ball. Obviously, you think you know something that the rest of us don't.

Hmm........

azskeptic
01-06-2006, 07:34 PM
tell us about the wonderful weekend clinicals in Mexico.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 07:38 PM
Ming, I have never given a lecture at IUHS. I pay full tuition. I am just tired of seeing unjustifiable statements being posted on this forum. this far, nobody has been able to justify anything that I have disputed. They continue to talk in circles. They continue to challenge me to justify my statements. But, the fact still remains, they haven't done their research. Because if they did, believe me you would see it! But, you haven't and you won't. A few people have already conceded that not all states have physical attendance for all pre-clinical sciences written in their regualtions. If they did, then students from Harvard, Ohio State U., etc.. would not be eligible for license either.

azskeptic
01-06-2006, 07:41 PM
Ming, I have never given a lecture at IUHS. I pay full tuition. I am just tired of seeing unjustifiable statements being posted on this forum. this far, nobody has been able to justify anything that I have disputed. They continue to talk in circles. They continue to challenge me to justify my statements. But, the fact still remains, they haven't done their research. Because if they did, believe me you would see it! But, you haven't and you won't. A few people have already conceded that not all states have physical attendance for all pre-clinical sciences written in their regualtions. If they did, then students from Harvard, Ohio State U., etc.. would not be eligible for license either. Harvard/Ohio State students don't do the MAJORITY of their basic science online and they don't choose mentors..they are supervised by professors.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 07:42 PM
AZ,

I don't know anything about the Mexico clinicals you referring to. However, I can tell you that I spend 80-100 hours a week at my clinical site. I have gained much clinical experience as the attending:student ratio is often 1:1. I applaud IUHS for allowing me to rotate in such a stimulating and rewarding clinical environment.

maximillian genossa
01-06-2006, 07:44 PM
tell us about the wonderful weekend clinicals in Mexico.

What is the problem by doing clinical rotations in Mexico? If so, why? You are starting to sound like a , with all due respect, bigot. Now you seem to want to start bashing Mexican clinicians as well.

Please clarify.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 07:44 PM
What percentage of time, exactly, do Harvard students spend online AZ? Please justify your response with proper citation. If you can't, don't make it! We are supposed to be scientists and doctors. Again, unjustifiable rhetoric with the intention of hurting the reputation of IUHS.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 07:48 PM
AZ, mentoring is a great idea and works! I gained valuable insight and experience from my mentor during my 1st 2 years at IUHS. It afforded me clinincal experiences and encounters almost from day 1 of medical school. I could correlate basic science education with clinical correlation in the setting of a busy practice. What's wrong with that? I spent 20-30 hours a week with my mentor. It was a great experience. Maybe other med schools should try it out.

sheikh1
01-06-2006, 07:51 PM
Who ever goes to this school must be insane, and desperate!!

Ming
01-06-2006, 07:54 PM
IUHSMS4, name your state. Let's compare notes. I will be willing to give you the names of those to whom I have spoken in ALL 50 states. You continue to ask for specifics. I am now asking you for specifics. Name your state.
Sir, you have yet to inform us which student category you fall into. You see, there must be a reason who a student would defend this school to the extent you do. I jokingly might inquire if you are an investor. I suppose one could muse that as a student you are an investor given the amount of money it costs.
Again, I reiterate, if IUHS and yourself feel so strongly there will not be any problems, why then do none of you identify yourselves? This is a serious question. You shouldn't be ashamed of identifying with an entity with which you are prepared to invest time, money and moral defence.

maximillian genossa
01-06-2006, 08:06 PM
Ming, Az, IUHSMS4, Carmen, myself, and all those wonderful souls posting in this thread...

If there is solid proof of anything being said here, why not file a claim in court. Any court with jurisdiction. It is simple, just takes a few steps, a filing fee, and of course a valid claim. Later one we will be asked for evidence, then a judge will designate hearings, at the hearing the judge listens to the complaint and decides to go forward with the case or simply toss it out. If he goes on with the case , discovery rules, depositions and all those wondeful court procedures and rules are in effect and the festivities may begin!

I am serious though. If we have proof, why not take it to court, a real court and not the court of public opinion, or better yet, the court of Valuemd opinion.

You may procede to crucify me. :cool:

Anything will be ridiculous! (Bill O'Reilley)

sheikh1
01-06-2006, 08:08 PM
I am supprised 60 minute did not pick on this issue.

maximillian genossa
01-06-2006, 08:09 PM
They are not interested or have better things to do. I do not doubt that they might have been contacted before, but this is now, who knows.


I am supprised 60 minute did not pick on this issue.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 08:10 PM
Ming. You know, if you see a person unjustifiably being beatin up on a side street, you have 2 choices. Ignore or help them. I choose to help. If there was any solid evidence supporting many of the statements posted on this forum, I would not be "helping" (as in my former analogy) IUHS. I am only defending unjustifiable statements about my school. I have no other interest.

neilc
01-06-2006, 08:11 PM
Neil, the regulations regarding pre-clinical science requirements do not require an attorney to understand. They are straight-forward and concise. Also, IUHS does require physical attendance at their campus prior to beginning clinical roatations. If anyone is interested, you should call their admissions department about the requirements for admissions, clinical rotations, and graduation. The fact is other US medical schools also have online components to their pre-clinical science currriculum.. umm, last i checked, grads of international schools oftentimes have more rigorous requirements than US school. as far as requiring an attorney...well, i would say that in the case of an untested thing such as an internet based medical degree, it is highly recommended that you base your interpretation of the law on something more substantial than your own amateur interpretation. further, given that the states have absolute power in determining who works theere, i would say that it is foolish to rely on anything other than precedent and/or the direct word of the med board.

In the age of technology, it is unlikely that states will begin mandating maximum allowance of online hours toward credit in a particular course. Students and physicians that have done part or all of their pre-clinicals online have, thus far, proven to be competent physicians. It's 2006 Neil. You know very little about IUHS's online curriculum. However, you assume it is not good. Have you seen the IUHS online curriculum of 2006? Have you attended any lectures online through IUHS? Do you know of any stats that support your assumption that IUHS's online curriculum isn't adequate and thorough? Specifically, how is Harvard's online component different from IUHS's? Be specific in your answer, please. No generalities. How many hours do Harvard med students spend online compared to IUHS students? Again, be specific. Don't say, "I doubt that....., I suspect that..... I assume that....." Get you facts. Then, once you have all available data, than you can engage in responsible, intellectual discourse regarding online education. The fact is you don't know much about it. However, you clearly feel as though you can criticize a concept and curriculum you know very little about. I invite others to reply. . never has my argument been that IUHS is substandard. it is my personal opinion that a third rate, poorly attended offshore school is NOT going to be the new standard maker for a developing method of education. could i be wrong? sure....

but, that is NOT the point. the point is that regardless of how you percieve the quality of the education, and regardless of how great the education may be, what matters is your licensability after the degree. as it is now, i think you will have trouble finding a state that will accept internet based medical education, regardless of how superior it may be.


IUHS is new school who does have a good track record of providing a solid pre-clinincal medical education, arranging clinical rotations for it's students, sponsoring students to sit for all of their boards, and assisting in securing residency positions for students who did their pre-clinicals online and on-campus. However, the fact is that the majority of their graduates began residencies less than 3 years ago. Hence, they have not had the opportunity to apply for unrestricted licensure. However, they are all doing well in their respective programs. There is no reason why any should have a problem gaining licensure in some states. A person to say with any degree of certainty that IUHS grads will not get licensed in any state is simply untrue and unjustifiable. Unless, of course, you have a crystal ball. Obviously, you think you know something that the rest of us don't.

Hmm........

ok, now you are making some assertations. as you have mentioned many, many times, these are meaningless without solid data. lets look at them one by one.
1. you claim solid pre clinical education...what are USMLE first time pass rates for non transfer students? if you don't have that, at least share with us the data that led you to this conclusion.
2. where are these clinical rotations that the school has arranged? can we verify that you have good clinincals, and that students do not have to do their own organization? let's see the data
3. where are these residents that you speak of? did they do their curriculum online? are the states they are working in aware of this? data, please.
4. the "majority" of grads are within 3 years of graduation..well, that means some should have been licensed. where are they? again, data.
5. as far as the 'crystal ball' comment, about where they can get licensure. well, we will have an answer soon. i do find it amusing how you can get all upset at me for saying that IUHS grads will have trouble, then claiming i don't have any proof when you have yet to prove that is a viable degree. hypocrite? me thinks yes.

anyhow, lets see how you do with this set of challenges. so far you have yet to answer any, so my expectations are low. i have a feeling you will avoid each and every one, and try to say something about data again. i guess that is all you can do when you have nothing valid to say. hide and divert. what a novel defense! yawn...:bored:

neilc
01-06-2006, 08:17 PM
Harvard/Ohio State students don't do the MAJORITY of their basic science online and they don't choose mentors..they are supervised by professors.

and, by being LCME accredited, they have some semblance of respectability that IUHS has yet to earn.

this constant reference to US based school curriculum is perhaps the weakest and most ignorant defense i have read yet.

IUHS is not a US school. it is a online carib school. therefore, they will not be assumed equal with harvard, ohio state, etc...they are subject to ENTIRELY different rules than US schools.

diversion, yet again.

you claim people are making unjustified claims against IUHS. will, my dear friend, you are making unjustified claims for IUHS. lets see the numbers and the data. if you won't share them, then you sure can't yell at people for not having data. it is very, very clear that you have partial data at best.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 08:30 PM
Neil, for the upteenth time, I am not in the position to nor would I disclose private information to you, especially on this forum. However, if you so desire to, there are many ways to get the information that you are looking for. Maybe try calling IUHS and asking. However, if you are not seriously thinking about applyling to IUHS, and your only intention is to attempt to discredit or raise unjustifiable suspicion about IUHS, please don't wate my school administrations time. They are very busy arranging roations for their students and assisting with residency placements. The match is coming up in March and it is a very busy time. However, let me say again, that your assumptions are incorrect. And, if you do the required research you will find that every one of my past answers to your questions will be found to be correct and true.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 08:32 PM
Neil, I'm not the one bashing or questioning another school. You are! I don't have toi justify anything. You are making the assumptions which should be justified if you are going to make them. Especially if it could potentially cause harm to a school's reputation.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 08:33 PM
Do you finally get it???

Ming
01-06-2006, 08:39 PM
IUHSMS4, I was referring to your incentive to join such a school. Surely you didn't have the intention of spending all that money to help them out. OK, so let's square off here on the specifics which you so often like to mention: name any state about which you wish to discuss the state licencing regulations.
You must also admit that IUHS has been around long enough to have produced licenced physicians and they haven't.
I previously mentioned that the majority of IUHS students with past credibility were transfer students. Very often these students were from regular medical students who were expelled. Would you like to dispute this?

azskeptic
01-06-2006, 08:46 PM
What is the problem by doing clinical rotations in Mexico? If so, why? You are starting to sound like a , with all due respect, bigot. Now you seem to want to start bashing Mexican clinicians as well.

Please clarify. They do clinicals not in the same way you did I would imagine...weekend warriors for full time working folks.......without supervision from their own med school I am told. I am married to a Mexican so bias isn't likely.

anatomy_guy
01-06-2006, 08:56 PM
Ming et al
Every student is an investor in their school. As an alumnus or alumna when you graduate with your degree, you must ensure that your school remains viable and be at its best otherwise the value of your education from the institution goes down. When I graduated with my Ph.D. from one of the University of California campuses in the San Francisco Bay Area, I was very proud of the University and Campus from which I graduated as I knew it would remain a world leader in the general research area or major that I had completed. It is this level of investment that makes us as students investors in the school. iuhsms4 is an investor because s/he hopes to be a graduate and maybe even a groundbreaking graduate in this method of basic science education. It is correct to ask what states do allow programs such as IUHS's for licensure as unrestricted medical practitioners. So iuhsms4 if you can give us some information on which states do allow these programs, we as the collective and cooperative can put together a comprehensive list as what states allow or don't allow such programs and what states may have additional requirements for those attending Carribean Medical Schools. (My initial caps for emphasis).
Cheers, A_G:)



IUHSMS4, name your state. Let's compare notes. I will be willing to give you the names of those to whom I have spoken in ALL 50 states. You continue to ask for specifics. I am now asking you for specifics. Name your state.
Sir, you have yet to inform us which student category you fall into. You see, there must be a reason who a student would defend this school to the extent you do. I jokingly might inquire if you are an investor. I suppose one could muse that as a student you are an investor given the amount of money it costs.
Again, I reiterate, if IUHS and yourself feel so strongly there will not be any problems, why then do none of you identify yourselves? This is a serious question. You shouldn't be ashamed of identifying with an entity with which you are prepared to invest time, money and moral defence.

Ming
01-06-2006, 09:13 PM
Anatomy guy, with all due respect the notion or philosophy that all students are investors in their schools is a redundant statement. However, students attending a school like IUHS do not have the luxury of such noble acts. Most IUHS students are as I stated. Three categories, financial problems, (meaning they must work while going to medical school), age problems, (meaning older than would be acceptable in regular medical school, poor academics, (meaning pre-med sciences not in the competitive category for regular medical school).
It is quite amusing to find a forum for our opinion and possibly literary skills, however, IUHSMS4 is interested in the specifics. Therefore, let's stick to the agenda at hand. IUHSMS4, name the state and let's get on with it.

neilc
01-06-2006, 09:34 PM
Neil, I'm not the one bashing or questioning another school. You are! I don't have toi justify anything. You are making the assumptions which should be justified if you are going to make them. Especially if it could potentially cause harm to a school's reputation.

jesus, can anybody say double standard???

you came on here and STARTED this thread about how IUHS is a valid option. i question that. all of the sudden i am the one starting this, the one making assumptions?

what cause's harm to the school's "reputation" is the school itself, and underinformed students such as yourself.

you came onto this site and made unverifiable claims, in an attempt to guide potential students to this school. that is why this thread was started by YOU, and why these issues came up. that is also why you have to give validity to your claims that the school is any good! yet you continue to refuse.

i am not asking for any private info. i am simply asking for the name of any state that you think your education will be valid in.

your silence on this matter says it all. your degree will likely be worthless.

(as an aside, i have contacted as many of the boards as i could, and will post the replies on the state licensing forum. i have a feeling your little delusions will come crashing down quite soon)

neilc
01-06-2006, 09:35 PM
Do you finally get it???

i got it a long time ago. you are a hypocrite who is attempting to mislead students into thinking your school is legit without offering any evidence to back this up.

Ming
01-06-2006, 09:58 PM
hi neil, yes, let's just wait for IUHSMS4 to name a state. Let's take each of his issues one at a time. 1st agenda: state regulations, state by state

maximillian genossa
01-06-2006, 10:19 PM
Ming, since you mentioned redundancies, your exchange with IUHSMS4 is very redundant as well. He won't tell, you keep insisting, he won't tell, you keep insisting. Both of you are looking like kindergardeners fighting over a piece of candy. Please. Anatomy guy brought up a valid point and you brush it off as redundant, give me a break. I see your point, but at the same time I don't see the point of a circular discussion. I do not believe at this point that you will get any information from IUHSMS4.

Like I said before, if you have any gripe against this school, hire a lawyer and sue them.

Max






Anatomy guy, with all due respect the notion or philosophy that all students are investors in their schools is a redundant statement. However, students attending a school like IUHS do not have the luxury of such noble acts. Most IUHS students are as I stated. Three categories, financial problems, (meaning they must work while going to medical school), age problems, (meaning older than would be acceptable in regular medical school, poor academics, (meaning pre-med sciences not in the competitive category for regular medical school).
It is quite amusing to find a forum for our opinion and possibly literary skills, however, IUHSMS4 is interested in the specifics. Therefore, let's stick to the agenda at hand. IUHSMS4, name the state and let's get on with it.

neilc
01-06-2006, 10:29 PM
Ming, since you mentioned redundancies, your exchange with IUHSMS4 is very redundant as well. He won't tell, you keep insisting, he won't tell, you keep insisting. Both of you are looking like kindergardeners fighting over a piece of candy. Please. Anatomy guy brought up a valid point and you brush it off as redundant, give me a break. I see your point, but at the same time I don't see the point of a circular discussion. I do not believe at this point that you will get any information from IUHSMS4.

Like I said before, if you have any gripe against this school, hire a lawyer and sue them.

Max

i agree that it is circular, and i will do my part to not further it. if iuhsms4 has nothing new to say, hopefully he will refrain from any more posting. i will wait to post what i hear from the boards.

i don't think the real gripe is with the school. they are doing whatever they do, whatever that may be. the real gripe is when "students" get on here and say "hey, this school is getting me places" and then they refuse to say just exactly where that is. outside of vague references to residents and licensed grads in some as yet unknown state and hospital, as well as "my home state will be ok", we know nothing. that is the true gripe.

anyhow, rant off for me. it is abundantly clear that iuhsms4 is not really fooling anybody. it will be more clear what the states really think soon enough.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 10:46 PM
OK, Neil- I'll help you. Obviously you are loads of talk, but with nothing to back it up. I started with the letter A. Here are Arkansas and Alabama's licensing requirements. Please note no mention of physical attandance in Ark..
I'm sure he'll have some snod reply to this. These were copy pasted straight from the state boards websites. I can hear Neil now, "But But But............."LOL Now, Neil and the rest of the bashers you post the other 48. I will only hold your hand you a little.

Arkansas Requirements for a Physician's License (No mention of physical attendance)


You Must Be Twenty-One Years Of Age.

You Must Be Of Good Moral Character And Have Not Been Guilty Of Acts Constituting Unprofessional Conduct, As Defined In Arkansas Medical Practices Act Sec. 17-95-409.

You Must Complete A Background Check As Defined In Arkansas Medical Practices Act Sec. 17-95-306.

Licensure Is By Credentials:
Credentials Must Be Verified From The Originating Source, Verifications Received From Applicants Will Be Returned.

Licensing Examinations Meeting The Board Requirement Are As Follows: Flex, National Boards, USMLE, National Board Of Osteopathic Exam COMLEX, LMCC Or State Exams Taken Prior To 1975.

You Must Be A Graduate Of An Approved Medical School And Request Your School Provide A Certified Copy Of Your Transcript To The Board.

Licensure Fee Of $400 And Processing Fee Of $100 ($500 Total) Is Required At Application.

If You Are An International Medical Graduate, You Must Also Provide:

Verification Of Clinical Clerkships.

Certification By ECFMG And Demonstrate In A Personal Interview The Ability To Read, Write And Speak English Fluently And Also Demonstrate Adequate Training And Ability Sufficient To Permit The Practice Of Medicine In Accordance With Accepted Medical Practice In The State Of Arkansas.

Completion Of At Least Three (3) Years Internship Or Residency In An ACGME Approved Program In The United States.

Present Indisputable Identification.

All Verifications Must Be Received Directly From The Originating Source.

Physician Licensee Application (http://www.valuemd.com/) All information concerning requirements, fees, etc., is subject to change without notice. You should not rely wholly upon the information available at this site -- the information sent with the application packet will be current and is the information upon which you should rely.

Obtaining an Application Packet (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#AppPacket)
Qualifications for Licensure (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#Qualificatio ns)
Required Documentation (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#Documents)
Application for Licensure through Examination (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#Examination)
Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#FAQ)
Obtaining an Application Packet (http://www.valuemd.com/)
To request a licensure package, please send the following information by mail to the Alabama Board of Medical Examiners, PO Box 946, Montgomery AL 36101-0946.

$20.00 check or money order made payable to the Alabama Board of Medical Examiners for each packet ordered
Your name
Your mailing address
The name and date of your original licensure exam (i.e., NBME, FLEX, USMLE, NBOME, LMCC)
If you have been certified or recertified by one of the Specialty Boards approved by the American Board of Medical Specialties or one of the Specialty Boards approved by the American Osteopathic Association, you must provide the date of certification or recertification. If you have not had a licensure exam and wish to apply for licensure by taking USMLE Step 3, please include this information also.Your packet will be mailed to you 3-5 business days after receipt of your request and check.

Back to Top (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#contents)

Qualifications for Licensure (http://www.valuemd.com/)

General Requirements That Apply To All Applicants For A Certificate Of Qualification (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#01)
Medical Education Requirement (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#02)
Post-Graduate Education Requirement (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#03)
Examination Requirements (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#04)
Education Council For Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) Certification Requirement (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#05)
Additional Requirements For Examination For Certain Applicants (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#06)
Interview Requirement (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#INT)
Fees Payable For Applicants For Certificates Of Qualification For Licensure To Practice Medicine In Alabama (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#FEES)
Policy Of The Board Of Medical Examiners For Referral Of Applications For A Certificate Of Qualification Which Reflect Treatment Or Aftercare For Chemical Dependency And Substance Abuse Or Psychiatric Illness To The Physicians Recovery Network For Evaluation And Recommendation To The Board Of Medical Examiners (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#POL)Alabama (does not license online grads)

540-X-3-.01 (http://www.valuemd.com/) General Requirements that Apply to All Applicants for a Certificate of Qualification.

All applicants for a certificate of qualification must satisfy the requirements of rule 540-X-3-.1 to 540-X-3-.09, inclusive.

540-X-3-.02 (http://www.valuemd.com/) Medical Education Requirement

(1) All applicants for a certificate of qualification shall present a diploma or evidence of graduation from any of the following institutions:
(a) A college of medicine or school of medicine accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education of the American Medical Association.
(b) A college of osteopathy accredited by the American Osteopathic Association.
(c) A college of medicine or school of medicine not accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education which is approved by the Board of Medical Examiners and whose graduates are eligible for examination by the Education Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) for its certificate. The Education Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) and its sponsoring organizations define a "graduate of a foreign medical school" as a physician whose basic medical degree or qualification was conferred by a medical school located outside the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. The medical school must be listed at the time of an applicant’s graduation in the World Directory of Medical Schools published by the World Health Organization.

(2) The Board may, within its discretion, withhold approval of any college of medicine designated in (1)(c) above which:
(a) Has had its accreditation withdrawn by a national or regional accreditation organization; or
(b) Has had its authorization, certification, or licensure revoked or withdrawn by a national or regional governmental supervisory agency; or
(c) Has been denied approval or has had its approval withdrawn by any national, state, or territorial licensing jurisdiction based upon an evaluation of the college of medicine or upon a finding of misconduct by the college; or
(d) The Board has determined has engaged in fraudulent, criminal, or other practices which are inconsistent with quality medical education.
1. A college of medicine which allows graduation from its medical school program, issues diplomas, or confers medical degrees based on course work offered via the Internet or online programs, and which is deemed by the Board to be a college of medicine which engages in practices which are inconsistent with quality medical education, will not be an approved college of medicine for the purpose of fulfilling the medical education requirement of Ala. Code §34-24-70 and this rule.

(3) Documentation submitted through the Federation Credentials Verification Service (FCVS) may be accepted to demonstrate compliance with subparagraphs (1)(a), (1)(b) and (1)(c) above.

(4) If the diploma of the applicant is based in any part upon clinical rotations, clerkships or training which was completed at hospitals which are not located within the same country where the medical school is principally located or where the director of the clinical rotation, clerkship or training is not directly responsible to the administration of the medical school, the applicant shall have the director of the clinical rotation, clerkship or training at the hospital where the clinical rotation, clerkship or training was undertaken send an original letter to the Board outlining the dates of the training, the exact type of training completed and an evaluation of the applicant's performance in the clinical rotation, clerkship or training undertaken.

(5) In the event that the Alabama Board of Medical Examiners shall, after careful consideration, determine that there exists substantial credible evidence to indicate that a college of medicine or a college of osteopathy located outside of the United States may have issued or is issuing diplomas to individuals who have not in fact acquired such diploma by actual attendance at and participation in a residency program of medical instruction and clinical rotations then in such event the Board may require that an applicant holding a diploma from such college submit the following additional documentation in conjunction with his or her application:
(a) That the applicant document to the satisfaction of the Board actual attendance in residence at all portions of the program of medical instruction designed to be taken in residence on the premises of the college of medicine or college of osteopathy issuing the diploma.
(b) That the applicant document to the satisfaction of the Board actual attendance and participation in clinical programs of instruction, or clinical rotations at a hospital facility actually affiliated with the college of medicine or college of osteopathy and offered as a part of the overall program of medical education.
(c) The foregoing requirements shall apply to applicants for a certificate of qualification by endorsement under '34-24-73, Code of Alabama, 1975, or by examination under '34-24-70, Code of Alabama, 1975, or for limited licensure under '34-24-75, Code of Alabama, 1975.
(d) The Board shall publish and maintain a list of any colleges of medicine or colleges of osteopathy which it determines to be within the scope of this rule.
(e) The documentation which the Board of Medical Examiners will deem to be acceptable for the purposes of this rule shall include, but is not limited to, passport data showing entry to and exit from the country in which the college of medicine or college of osteopathy is located; other travel or immigration documents issued by the United States Government, or the government of the country in which the college of medicine or college of osteopathy is located reflecting residence in that country; the sworn and notarized certification of the department or division director of any clinical program affiliated with the college of medicine or college of osteopathy attesting to the attendance and residency of the applicant; or any other impartial documents as would be considered trustworthy by a reasonably prudent person in the conduct of his most important affairs. Failure of the applicant to document actual attendance as specified above will result in a denial of the application for certificate of qualification. The requirements set forth in this rule shall be in addition to all of the other requirements set forth in the rules and regulations of the State Board of Medical Examiners.

(6) The following Colleges of Medicine or Schools of Medicine are not approved by the Board for applicants for certificates of qualification pursuant to the authority of Ala. Code §34-24-70(a)(1)c. and Rule 540-X-3-.02(2):
(a) Universidad Tecnoglica de Santiago, Dominican Republic (UTESA)
(b) Universidad Eugenio Maria de Hostos, Dominican Republic (UNIREMHOS)

(7) Graduates of the following colleges of medicine or schools of medicine are required to submit the additional documentation required by Rule 540-X-3-.02(5)(a) through (d) in conjunction with an application for a certificate of qualification:
(a) Kigezi International School of Medicine, Uganda, Africa
(b) Universidad Centro de Estudios Tecnologicos, Dominican Republic (CETEC)
(c) Universidad Fedrico Henriquez Carajal, Dominican Republic (UFHEC)
(d) Universidad Centro de Investigacion Formacion Asesona Social, Dominican Republic (CIFAS)
(e) University of Health Sciences Antigua, St. Johns (Antigua), Dominican Republic
(f) Spartan University (A.K.A. St. Lucia Health Sciences University), Dominican Republic
(g) American University of the Caribbean, Montserrat, West Indes
(h) American University of the Caribbean, St. Maarten
(i) Universidad Autonoma de Ciudad Juarez, Mexico
(j) Universidad Mexico American Del Norte, Mexico

maximillian genossa
01-06-2006, 10:57 PM
Dude, it is true that Alabama does mention physical attendance and at the same time they do mention the following..."1. A college of medicine which allows graduation from its medical school program, issues diplomas, or confers medical degrees based on course work offered via the Internet or online programs, and which is deemed by the Board to be a college of medicine which engages in practices which are inconsistent with quality medical education, will not be an approved college of medicine for the purpose of fulfilling the medical education requirement of Ala. Code §34-24-70 and this rule."

That pretty cut and clear, IUHS will not qualify there, neither UHSA or COMHS.

You just presented evidence against your own case. Why?


OK, Neil- I'll help you. Obviously you are loads of talk, but with nothing to back it up. I started with the letter A. Here are Arkansas and Alabama's licensing requirements. Please note no mention of physical attandance in Ark..
I'm sure he'll have some snod reply to this. These were copy pasted straight from the state boards websites. I can hear Neil now, "But But But............."LOL Now, Neil and the rest of the bashers you post the other 48. I will only hold your hand you a little.
Arkansas Requirements for a Physician's License (No mention of physical attendance)
You Must Be Twenty-One Years Of Age.
You Must Be Of Good Moral Character And Have Not Been Guilty Of Acts Constituting Unprofessional Conduct, As Defined In Arkansas Medical Practices Act Sec. 17-95-409.
You Must Complete A Background Check As Defined In Arkansas Medical Practices Act Sec. 17-95-306.
Licensure Is By Credentials:
Credentials Must Be Verified From The Originating Source, Verifications Received From Applicants Will Be Returned.
Licensing Examinations Meeting The Board Requirement Are As Follows: Flex, National Boards, USMLE, National Board Of Osteopathic Exam COMLEX, LMCC Or State Exams Taken Prior To 1975.
You Must Be A Graduate Of An Approved Medical School And Request Your School Provide A Certified Copy Of Your Transcript To The Board.
Licensure Fee Of $400 And Processing Fee Of $100 ($500 Total) Is Required At Application.
If You Are An International Medical Graduate, You Must Also Provide:
Verification Of Clinical Clerkships.
Certification By ECFMG And Demonstrate In A Personal Interview The Ability To Read, Write And Speak English Fluently And Also Demonstrate Adequate Training And Ability Sufficient To Permit The Practice Of Medicine In Accordance With Accepted Medical Practice In The State Of Arkansas.
Completion Of At Least Three (3) Years Internship Or Residency In An ACGME Approved Program In The United States.
Present Indisputable Identification.
All Verifications Must Be Received Directly From The Originating Source.
Physician Licensee Application (http://www.valuemd.com/) All information concerning requirements, fees, etc., is subject to change without notice. You should not rely wholly upon the information available at this site -- the information sent with the application packet will be current and is the information upon which you should rely.

Obtaining an Application Packet (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#AppPacket)
Qualifications for Licensure (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#Qualificatio ns)
Required Documentation (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#Documents)
Application for Licensure through Examination (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#Examination)
Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#FAQ)
Obtaining an Application Packet (http://www.valuemd.com/)
To request a licensure package, please send the following information by mail to the Alabama Board of Medical Examiners, PO Box 946, Montgomery AL 36101-0946.

$20.00 check or money order made payable to the Alabama Board of Medical Examiners for each packet ordered
Your name
Your mailing address
The name and date of your original licensure exam (i.e., NBME, FLEX, USMLE, NBOME, LMCC)
If you have been certified or recertified by one of the Specialty Boards approved by the American Board of Medical Specialties or one of the Specialty Boards approved by the American Osteopathic Association, you must provide the date of certification or recertification. If you have not had a licensure exam and wish to apply for licensure by taking USMLE Step 3, please include this information also.Your packet will be mailed to you 3-5 business days after receipt of your request and check.
Back to Top (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#contents)
Qualifications for Licensure (http://www.valuemd.com/)

General Requirements That Apply To All Applicants For A Certificate Of Qualification (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#01)
Medical Education Requirement (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#02)
Post-Graduate Education Requirement (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#03)
Examination Requirements (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#04)
Education Council For Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) Certification Requirement (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#05)
Additional Requirements For Examination For Certain Applicants (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#06)
Interview Requirement (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#INT)
Fees Payable For Applicants For Certificates Of Qualification For Licensure To Practice Medicine In Alabama (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#FEES)
Policy Of The Board Of Medical Examiners For Referral Of Applications For A Certificate Of Qualification Which Reflect Treatment Or Aftercare For Chemical Dependency And Substance Abuse Or Psychiatric Illness To The Physicians Recovery Network For Evaluation And Recommendation To The Board Of Medical Examiners (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#POL)Alabama (does not license online grads)
540-X-3-.01 (http://www.valuemd.com/) General Requirements that Apply to All Applicants for a Certificate of Qualification.
All applicants for a certificate of qualification must satisfy the requirements of rule 540-X-3-.1 to 540-X-3-.09, inclusive.
540-X-3-.02 (http://www.valuemd.com/) Medical Education Requirement
(1) All applicants for a certificate of qualification shall present a diploma or evidence of graduation from any of the following institutions:
(a) A college of medicine or school of medicine accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education of the American Medical Association.
(b) A college of osteopathy accredited by the American Osteopathic Association.
(c) A college of medicine or school of medicine not accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education which is approved by the Board of Medical Examiners and whose graduates are eligible for examination by the Education Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) for its certificate. The Education Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) and its sponsoring organizations define a "graduate of a foreign medical school" as a physician whose basic medical degree or qualification was conferred by a medical school located outside the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. The medical school must be listed at the time of an applicant’s graduation in the World Directory of Medical Schools published by the World Health Organization.
(2) The Board may, within its discretion, withhold approval of any college of medicine designated in (1)(c) above which:
(a) Has had its accreditation withdrawn by a national or regional accreditation organization; or
(b) Has had its authorization, certification, or licensure revoked or withdrawn by a national or regional governmental supervisory agency; or
(c) Has been denied approval or has had its approval withdrawn by any national, state, or territorial licensing jurisdiction based upon an evaluation of the college of medicine or upon a finding of misconduct by the college; or
(d) The Board has determined has engaged in fraudulent, criminal, or other practices which are inconsistent with quality medical education.
1. A college of medicine which allows graduation from its medical school program, issues diplomas, or confers medical degrees based on course work offered via the Internet or online programs, and which is deemed by the Board to be a college of medicine which engages in practices which are inconsistent with quality medical education, will not be an approved college of medicine for the purpose of fulfilling the medical education requirement of Ala. Code §34-24-70 and this rule.
(3) Documentation submitted through the Federation Credentials Verification Service (FCVS) may be accepted to demonstrate compliance with subparagraphs (1)(a), (1)(b) and (1)(c) above.
(4) If the diploma of the applicant is based in any part upon clinical rotations, clerkships or training which was completed at hospitals which are not located within the same country where the medical school is principally located or where the director of the clinical rotation, clerkship or training is not directly responsible to the administration of the medical school, the applicant shall have the director of the clinical rotation, clerkship or training at the hospital where the clinical rotation, clerkship or training was undertaken send an original letter to the Board outlining the dates of the training, the exact type of training completed and an evaluation of the applicant's performance in the clinical rotation, clerkship or training undertaken.
(5) In the event that the Alabama Board of Medical Examiners shall, after careful consideration, determine that there exists substantial credible evidence to indicate that a college of medicine or a college of osteopathy located outside of the United States may have issued or is issuing diplomas to individuals who have not in fact acquired such diploma by actual attendance at and participation in a residency program of medical instruction and clinical rotations then in such event the Board may require that an applicant holding a diploma from such college submit the following additional documentation in conjunction with his or her application:
(a) That the applicant document to the satisfaction of the Board actual attendance in residence at all portions of the program of medical instruction designed to be taken in residence on the premises of the college of medicine or college of osteopathy issuing the diploma.
(b) That the applicant document to the satisfaction of the Board actual attendance and participation in clinical programs of instruction, or clinical rotations at a hospital facility actually affiliated with the college of medicine or college of osteopathy and offered as a part of the overall program of medical education.
(c) The foregoing requirements shall apply to applicants for a certificate of qualification by endorsement under '34-24-73, Code of Alabama, 1975, or by examination under '34-24-70, Code of Alabama, 1975, or for limited licensure under '34-24-75, Code of Alabama, 1975.
(d) The Board shall publish and maintain a list of any colleges of medicine or colleges of osteopathy which it determines to be within the scope of this rule.
(e) The documentation which the Board of Medical Examiners will deem to be acceptable for the purposes of this rule shall include, but is not limited to, passport data showing entry to and exit from the country in which the college of medicine or college of osteopathy is located; other travel or immigration documents issued by the United States Government, or the government of the country in which the college of medicine or college of osteopathy is located reflecting residence in that country; the sworn and notarized certification of the department or division director of any clinical program affiliated with the college of medicine or college of osteopathy attesting to the attendance and residency of the applicant; or any other impartial documents as would be considered trustworthy by a reasonably prudent person in the conduct of his most important affairs. Failure of the applicant to document actual attendance as specified above will result in a denial of the application for certificate of qualification. The requirements set forth in this rule shall be in addition to all of the other requirements set forth in the rules and regulations of the State Board of Medical Examiners.
(6) The following Colleges of Medicine or Schools of Medicine are not approved by the Board for applicants for certificates of qualification pursuant to the authority of Ala. Code §34-24-70(a)(1)c. and Rule 540-X-3-.02(2):
(a) Universidad Tecnoglica de Santiago, Dominican Republic (UTESA)
(b) Universidad Eugenio Maria de Hostos, Dominican Republic (UNIREMHOS)
(7) Graduates of the following colleges of medicine or schools of medicine are required to submit the additional documentation required by Rule 540-X-3-.02(5)(a) through (d) in conjunction with an application for a certificate of qualification:
(a) Kigezi International School of Medicine, Uganda, Africa
(b) Universidad Centro de Estudios Tecnologicos, Dominican Republic (CETEC)
(c) Universidad Fedrico Henriquez Carajal, Dominican Republic (UFHEC)
(d) Universidad Centro de Investigacion Formacion Asesona Social, Dominican Republic (CIFAS)
(e) University of Health Sciences Antigua, St. Johns (Antigua), Dominican Republic
(f) Spartan University (A.K.A. St. Lucia Health Sciences University), Dominican Republic
(g) American University of the Caribbean, Montserrat, West Indes
(h) American University of the Caribbean, St. Maarten
(i) Universidad Autonoma de Ciudad Juarez, Mexico
(j) Universidad Mexico American Del Norte, Mexico

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 11:04 PM
Alaska (Hmm... read it)

Sec. 08.64.170. License to practice medicine, podiatry, or osteopathy. (a) A person may not practice
medicine, podiatry, or osteopathy, in the state unless the person is licensed under this chapter, except that
(1) a physician assistant may examine, diagnose or treat persons under the supervision, control, and
responsibility of either a physician licensed under this chapter or a physician exempted from licensing under
AS 08.64.370;
(2) a mobile intensive care paramedic may render emergency lifesaving service; and
(3) a person who is licensed or authorized under another chapter of this title may engage in a practice that is
authorized under that chapter.
(b) [Repealed, § 4 ch 101 SLA 1974.]

(c) A chiropodist practicing in the state on May 16, 1972 is exempt from this section.
(d) A podiatrist practicing in the state on March 26, 1976 is exempt from this section, and shall be issued a
license without examination if application is made within one year of March 26, 1976.

Sec. 08.64.180. Application for license. A person who desires to practice medicine, or osteopathy in the state
shall apply in writing to the department for a license.

Sec. 08.64.190. Contents of application. The application must state the name, age, residence, the duration of
residence, the time spent in medical or osteopathy study, the place, year, and school in which degrees were granted,
the applicant’s medical work history, and other information the board considers necessary. The application shall be
made under oath. The board may verify information in the application through direct contact with the appropriate
schools, medical boards, or other agencies that can substantiate the information.

Sec. 08.64.200. Qualifications of physician applicants. (a) Except for foreign medical graduates as specified in
AS 08.64.225, each physician applicant shall
(1) submit a certificate of graduation from a legally chartered medical school accredited by the Association of
American Medical Colleges and the Council on Medical Education of the American Medical Association;
-4-
(2) submit a certificate from a recognized hospital or hospitals certifying that the applicant has satisfactorily
performed the duties of resident physician or intern for a period of
(A) one year if the applicant graduated from medical school before January 1, 1995, as evidenced by a
certificate of completion of the first year of postgraduate training from the facility where the applicant completed the
first year of internship or residency; and
(B) two years if the applicant graduated from medical school on or after January 1, 1995, as evidenced by a
certificate of completion of the first year of postgraduate training from the facility where the applicant completed the
first year of internship or residency and a certificate of successful completion of one additional year of postgraduate
training at a recognized hospital;
(3) submit a list of negotiated settlements or judgements in claims or civil actions alleging medical
malpractice against the applicant, including an explanation of the basis for each claim or action; and
(4) not have a license to practice medicine in another state, country, province, or territory that is currently
suspended or revoked for disciplinary reasons.
(b) The board shall determine whether each physician applicant has any disciplinary or other actions recorded in
the nationwide disciplinary data bank of the Federation of State Medical Boards. If the physician applicant was
licensed or practiced in a jurisdiction that does not record information with the data bank of the Federation of State
Medical Boards, the board shall contact the medical regulatory body of that jurisdiction to obtain comparable
information about the applicant.

Sec. 08.64.205. Qualifications for osteopath applicants. Each osteopath applicant shall meet the qualifications
prescribed in AS 08.64.200(a)(3) and (4) and shall
(1) submit a certificate of graduation from the legally chartered school of osteopathy approved by the board;
(2) submit a certificate from a hospital approved by the American Medical Association or the American
Osteopathic Association that certifies that the osteopath has satisfactorily completed and performed the duties of
intern or resident physician for
(A) one year if the applicant graduated from a school of osteopathy before January 1, 1995, as evidenced
by a certificate of completion of the first year of postgraduate training from the facility where the applicant
completed the first year of internship or residency; or
(B) two years if the applicant graduated from a school of osteopathy on or after January 1, 1995, as
evidenced by a certificate of completion of the first year of postgraduate training from the facility where the
applicant completed the first year of internship or residency and a certificate of successful completion of one
additional year of postgraduate training at a recognized hospital;
(3) take the examination required by AS 08.64.210 or be certified to practice by the National Board of
Examiners for Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons.

Sec. 08.64.209. Qualifications for podiatry applicants. (a) Each applicant who desires to practice podiatry
shall meet the qualifications prescribed in AS 08.64.200(a)(3) and (4) and shall
(1) submit a certificate of graduation from a legally chartered school of podiatry approved by the board;
(2) take the examination required by AS 08.64.210; the State Medical Board shall call to its aid a podiatrist of
known ability who is licensed to practice podiatry to assist in the examination and licensure of applicants for a
license to practice podiatry;
(3) meet other qualifications of experience or education which the board may require.
(b) The provisions of AS 08.64.180—08.64.190, 08.64.220, and 08.64.230—08.64.380 relating to the practice
of medicine or osteopathy apply to the application procedure, testing, and practice of podiatry, as appropriate.

Sec. 08.64.210. Examination required. (a) The applicant shall take examinations in subjects the board
considers necessary, unless excused under provisions of AS 08.64.250.
(b) The deadline for submitting an exam application to the board shall be established by regulation.

Sec. 08.64.220. Contents of examination and grading. (a) The board shall offer a written examination
sufficient to test the applicant’s fitness to practice medicine or osteopathy.
(b) [Repealed, § 27 ch 148 SLA 1970.]

(c) The examinations, answers, and scores shall be preserved and filed.

Sec. 08.64.225. Foreign medical graduates. (a) Applicants who are graduates of medical colleges not
accredited by the Association of American Medical Colleges and the Council on Medical Education of the American
Medical Association shall
(1) meet the requirements of AS 08.64.200(a)(3) and (4) and 08.64.255;
(2) have successfully completed
(A) three years of postgraduate training as evidenced by a certificate of completion of the first year of
postgraduate training from the facility where the applicant completed the first year of internship or residency and a
certificate of successful completion of two additional years of postgraduate training at a recognized hospital; or
-5-
(B) other requirements establishing proof of competency and professional qualifications as the board
considers necessary to ensure the continued protection of the public adopted at the discretion of the board by
regulation; and
(3) have passed examinations as specified by the board in regulations.
(b) Requirements establishing proof of competency under (a)(2)(B) of this section may include
(1) current licensure in another state and an active medical practice in that state for at least three years; or
(2) current board certification in a practice specialty by the American Board of Medical Specialties.
(c) In this section, “recognized hospital” means a hospital that has been approved for internship or residency
training by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education or the Royal College of Physicians and
Surgeons of Canada.

Sec. 08.64.230. License granted. (a) If the physician applicant passes the examination and meets the
requirements of AS 08.64.200 and 08.64.255, the board shall grant a license to the applicant to practice medicine in
the state.
(b) If an osteopath applicant passes the examination and meets the requirements of AS 08.64.205 and 08.64.255,
the board shall grant a license to the applicant to practice osteopathy in the state.
(c) Each license shall be signed by the secretary and president of the board, and have the seal of the board
affixed to it.

Sec. 08.64.240. License refused. (a) The board may not grant a license if
(1) the applicant fails or cheats during the examination;
(2) the applicant has surrendered a license in another jurisdiction while under investigation and the license has
not been reinstated in that jurisdiction;
(3) the board determines that the applicant is professionally unfit to practice medicine or osteopathy in the
state; or
(4) the applicant fails to comply with a requirement of this chapter.
(b) The board may refuse to grant a license to any applicant for the same reasons that it may impose disciplinary
sanctions under AS 08.64.326.

Sec. 08.64.250. License by credentials. The board may waive the examination requirement and license by
credentials if the physician or podiatry applicant meets the requirements of AS 08.64.200 or 08.64.209, submits
proof of continued competence as required by regulation, pays the required fee and has
(1) an active license from a board of medical examiners established under the laws of a state or territory of the
United States or a province or territory of Canada issued after thorough examination; or
(2) passed an examination as specified by the board in regulations.

Sec. 08.64.255. Interviews. An applicant for licensure may be interviewed in person by the board or by a
member of the board before a license is issued. The interview must be recorded. If the application is denied on the
basis of the interview, the denial shall be stated in writing, with the reasons for it, and the rec

neilc
01-06-2006, 11:13 PM
OK, Neil- I'll help you. Obviously you are loads of talk, but with nothing to back it up. I started with the letter A. Here are Arkansas and Alabama's licensing requirements. Please note no mention of physical attandance in Ark..
I'm sure he'll have some snod reply to this. These were copy pasted straight from the state boards websites. I can hear Neil now, "But But But............."LOL Now, Neil and the rest of the bashers you post the other 48. I will only hold your hand you a little.

Arkansas Requirements for a Physician's License (No mention of physical attendance)


You Must Be Twenty-One Years Of Age.

You Must Be Of Good Moral Character And Have Not Been Guilty Of Acts Constituting Unprofessional Conduct, As Defined In Arkansas Medical Practices Act Sec. 17-95-409.

You Must Complete A Background Check As Defined In Arkansas Medical Practices Act Sec. 17-95-306.

Licensure Is By Credentials:
Credentials Must Be Verified From The Originating Source, Verifications Received From Applicants Will Be Returned.

Licensing Examinations Meeting The Board Requirement Are As Follows: Flex, National Boards, USMLE, National Board Of Osteopathic Exam COMLEX, LMCC Or State Exams Taken Prior To 1975.

You Must Be A Graduate Of An Approved Medical School And Request Your School Provide A Certified Copy Of Your Transcript To The Board.

Licensure Fee Of $400 And Processing Fee Of $100 ($500 Total) Is Required At Application.

If You Are An International Medical Graduate, You Must Also Provide:

Verification Of Clinical Clerkships.

Certification By ECFMG And Demonstrate In A Personal Interview The Ability To Read, Write And Speak English Fluently And Also Demonstrate Adequate Training And Ability Sufficient To Permit The Practice Of Medicine In Accordance With Accepted Medical Practice In The State Of Arkansas.

Completion Of At Least Three (3) Years Internship Or Residency In An ACGME Approved Program In The United States.

Present Indisputable Identification.

All Verifications Must Be Received Directly From The Originating Source.

Physician Licensee Application (http://www.valuemd.com/) All information concerning requirements, fees, etc., is subject to change without notice. You should not rely wholly upon the information available at this site -- the information sent with the application packet will be current and is the information upon which you should rely.
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(1) All applicants for a certificate of qualification shall present a diploma or evidence of graduation from any of the following institutions:
(a) A college of medicine or school of medicine accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education of the American Medical Association.
(b) A college of osteopathy accredited by the American Osteopathic Association.
(c) A college of medicine or school of medicine not accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education which is approved by the Board of Medical Examiners and whose graduates are eligible for examination by the Education Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) for its certificate. The Education Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) and its sponsoring organizations define a "graduate of a foreign medical school" as a physician whose basic medical degree or qualification was conferred by a medical school located outside the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. The medical school must be listed at the time of an applicant’s graduation in the World Directory of Medical Schools published by the World Health Organization.

(2) The Board may, within its discretion, withhold approval of any college of medicine designated in (1)(c) above which:
(a) Has had its accreditation withdrawn by a national or regional accreditation organization; or
(b) Has had its authorization, certification, or licensure revoked or withdrawn by a national or regional governmental supervisory agency; or
(c) Has been denied approval or has had its approval withdrawn by any national, state, or territorial licensing jurisdiction based upon an evaluation of the college of medicine or upon a finding of misconduct by the college; or
(d) The Board has determined has engaged in fraudulent, criminal, or other practices which are inconsistent with quality medical education.
1. A college of medicine which allows graduation from its medical school program, issues diplomas, or confers medical degrees based on course work offered via the Internet or online programs, and which is deemed by the Board to be a college of medicine which engages in practices which are inconsistent with quality medical education, will not be an approved college of medicine for the purpose of fulfilling the medical education requirement of Ala. Code §34-24-70 and this rule.

(3) Documentation submitted through the Federation Credentials Verification Service (FCVS) may be accepted to demonstrate compliance with subparagraphs (1)(a), (1)(b) and (1)(c) above.

(4) If the diploma of the applicant is based in any part upon clinical rotations, clerkships or training which was completed at hospitals which are not located within the same country where the medical school is principally located or where the director of the clinical rotation, clerkship or training is not directly responsible to the administration of the medical school, the applicant shall have the director of the clinical rotation, clerkship or training at the hospital where the clinical rotation, clerkship or training was undertaken send an original letter to the Board outlining the dates of the training, the exact type of training completed and an evaluation of the applicant's performance in the clinical rotation, clerkship or training undertaken.

(5) In the event that the Alabama Board of Medical Examiners shall, after careful consideration, determine that there exists substantial credible evidence to indicate that a college of medicine or a college of osteopathy located outside of the United States may have issued or is issuing diplomas to individuals who have not in fact acquired such diploma by actual attendance at and participation in a residency program of medical instruction and clinical rotations then in such event the Board may require that an applicant holding a diploma from such college submit the following additional documentation in conjunction with his or her application:
(a) That the applicant document to the satisfaction of the Board actual attendance in residence at all portions of the program of medical instruction designed to be taken in residence on the premises of the college of medicine or college of osteopathy issuing the diploma.
(b) That the applicant document to the satisfaction of the Board actual attendance and participation in clinical programs of instruction, or clinical rotations at a hospital facility actually affiliated with the college of medicine or college of osteopathy and offered as a part of the overall program of medical education.
(c) The foregoing requirements shall apply to applicants for a certificate of qualification by endorsement under '34-24-73, Code of Alabama, 1975, or by examination under '34-24-70, Code of Alabama, 1975, or for limited licensure under '34-24-75, Code of Alabama, 1975.
(d) The Board shall publish and maintain a list of any colleges of medicine or colleges of osteopathy which it determines to be within the scope of this rule.
(e) The documentation which the Board of Medical Examiners will deem to be acceptable for the purposes of this rule shall include, but is not limited to, passport data showing entry to and exit from the country in which the college of medicine or college of osteopathy is located; other travel or immigration documents issued by the United States Government, or the government of the country in which the college of medicine or college of osteopathy is located reflecting residence in that country; the sworn and notarized certification of the department or division director of any clinical program affiliated with the college of medicine or college of osteopathy attesting to the attendance and residency of the applicant; or any other impartial documents as would be considered trustworthy by a reasonably prudent person in the conduct of his most important affairs. Failure of the applicant to document actual attendance as specified above will result in a denial of the application for certificate of qualification. The requirements set forth in this rule shall be in addition to all of the other requirements set forth in the rules and regulations of the State Board of Medical Examiners.

(6) The following Colleges of Medicine or Schools of Medicine are not approved by the Board for applicants for certificates of qualification pursuant to the authority of Ala. Code §34-24-70(a)(1)c. and Rule 540-X-3-.02(2):
(a) Universidad Tecnoglica de Santiago, Dominican Republic (UTESA)
(b) Universidad Eugenio Maria de Hostos, Dominican Republic (UNIREMHOS)

(7) Graduates of the following colleges of medicine or schools of medicine are required to submit the additional documentation required by Rule 540-X-3-.02(5)(a) through (d) in conjunction with an application for a certificate of qualification:
(a) Kigezi International School of Medicine, Uganda, Africa
(b) Universidad Centro de Estudios Tecnologicos, Dominican Republic (CETEC)
(c) Universidad Fedrico Henriquez Carajal, Dominican Republic (UFHEC)
(d) Universidad Centro de Investigacion Formacion Asesona Social, Dominican Republic (CIFAS)
(e) University of Health Sciences Antigua, St. Johns (Antigua), Dominican Republic
(f) Spartan University (A.K.A. St. Lucia Health Sciences University), Dominican Republic
(g) American University of the Caribbean, Montserrat, West Indes
(h) American University of the Caribbean, St. Maarten
(i) Universidad Autonoma de Ciudad Juarez, Mexico
(j) Universidad Mexico American Del Norte, Mexico








great! first of all, alabama is a clear no. glad you see that.

second, while AR does not mention physical attendance specifically, it does say this:

"You Must Be A Graduate Of An Approved Medical School And Request Your School Provide A Certified Copy Of Your Transcript To The Board."

is IUHS an approved school?

basically, your little clip proves only what a superficial job you did in research. i hope you can see that there is certainly a lot of room to interpretation for AR, and there is zero assurance that your degree will be ok. do you truly think that you are going to be fine in every state that does not specifically prohibit online learning? if so, my man, you are in for a VERY rude awakening.

i do truly hope that after all of your spouting about "responsible and concise" thinking that you did more than base all of your hopes and dreams on abridged, website versions of the rules, or even your own personal interpretation of the published laws. did you at the very least email anybody and say "i am thinking of going to an internet based med school. if so, can i get licensed?" and, if you DID do this, i cannot see why you wouldn't be shouting this from the rooftops, and sharing your source of vindication with us all!

oh wait...i know why! it is because you DIDN'T specifically ask, and you don't want your cover to be blown...ooopsie!

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 11:15 PM
Genossa,

My case isn't that IUHS grads can get licensed in every state. I knew we couldn't when I enrolled. My case is that claims of IUHS grads not being able to licensed in any state is just unjustifiable speculation that could cause harm to a school and it's students in the way of exacerbating a relatively bad reputation. IUHS has made mistakes in the past. However, they have fixed alot of them. Nevertheless, Neil and others have no right to come on here and spread untruths about the school. If you notice, Neil has changed his tune from "IUHS grads will not get licensed" to "IUHS grads most likely will not get licensed". But, this is simply his own simple-minded opinion. So, I posted 3 different states, who begin with the letter "A", licensing requirements of which 2 do not mention physical attendance to show that Neil has no idea what he is talking about. However, I could had posted only the 2 who didn't mention physical attendance. But, that is something you are most likely going to see Neil and his cohort do. I try to be objective and base my opinions and thoughts on objective data. I guarantee Neil will try to turn this around and ignore the words "physical attendance" and argue, "Well, it in Arkansas, they say "approved" medical school. So that could mean............"No, Neil! It could of, should of, would of means nothing, my friend. The words "physical attenance" are simply not in the regulations. Period. Case closed. By the way, there is quite a long list of carib and foreign schools on Alabama's black list. Why don't you go on their forum and harass them too? Doesn't Charles U or any of these other foreign schools all these IUHS bashers have a forum?

neilc
01-06-2006, 11:17 PM
Alaska (Hmm... read it)

...


Sec. 08.64.240. License refused.

...
(3) the board determines that the applicant is professionally unfit to practice medicine or osteopathy in the
state; or




and there is AK's loophole to deny you for any reason they see fit.

as you can see, a state does not need to specifically mention physical attendence. all they have to do is leave some leeway for individual interpretation of credentials.

keep the evidence coming, you are digging your own hole.

neilc
01-06-2006, 11:20 PM
Genossa,

My case isn't that IUHS grads can get licensed in every state. I knew we couldn't when I enrolled. My case is that claims of IUHS grads not being able to licensed in any state is just unjustifiable speculation that could cause harm to a school and it's students in the way of exacerbating a relatively bad reputation. IUHS has made mistakes in the past. However, they have fixed alot of them. Nevertheless, Neil and others have no right to come on here and spread untruths about the school. If you notice, Neil has changed his tune from "IUHS grads will not get licensed" to "IUHS grads most likely will not get licensed". But, this is simply his own simple-minded opinion. So, I posted 3 different states, who begin with the letter "A", licensing requirements of which 2 do not mention physical attendance to show that Neil has no idea what he is talking about. However, I could had posted only the 2 who didn't mention physical attendance. But, that is something you are most likely going to see Neil and his cohort do. I try to be objective and base my opinions and thoughts on objective data. I guarantee Neil will try to turn this around and ignore the words "physical attendance" and argue, "Well, it in Arkansas, they say "approved" medical school. So that could mean............"No, Neil! It could of, should of, would of means nothing, my friend. The words "physical attenance" are simply not in the regulations. Period. Case closed. By the way, there is quite a long list of carib and foreign schools on Alabama's black list. Why don't you go on their forum and harass them too? Doesn't Charles U or any of these other foreign schools all these IUHS bashers have a forum?



hahahahhahahaaaa!!! that is me rolling on the floor laughing!

now it is completely clear that you DID actually base this on the mere absense of the words "physical attendence required"!

dude, you are so bummed. that is freakin hilarious. i really hope you are smarter than that! the lack of those three words IN NO WAY implies any recognition of an offshore degree.

if you want me to agree that a lot of states do not mention those three words, great! you got it. i agree. but, i would have to say that is the most shallow and short sighted justification i have ever seen. i cannot wait to get my replies from the states!!!

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 11:24 PM
Neil, there is no guarantee that your school would be approved in Arkansas either. But, nobody in here is bashing Charles University, wherever and whatever that school is. Don't you have better things to do? Doesn't your school have a forum? Get a life dude! I'm waiting for the day to have discussion with people that want to seriously talk about improving online education and helping students manage work and school, etc... Not this garbage. My point was and still is -You don't know for certain , Neil! What don't you get about that? However, you keep making claims that could hurt people and a school's reputation! My claims do not hurt anyone! If someone doesn't want to believe me, then don't enroll at IUHS. No harm done. But what you don't get is that there are real people out there who have invested money and time into this school and do not deserve to have their school questioned and attacked by the likes of you! Who do you think you are? Stop it already! If you don't like IUHS, get off our website, go to Charles U website, and talk about ...............ummm....... exactly.. you would have nothing to talk about.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 11:28 PM
I know Neil. You have an answer for everything.

neilc
01-06-2006, 11:32 PM
Neil, there is no guarantee that your school would be approved in Arkansas either. But, nobody in here is bashing Charles University, wherever and whatever that school is. Don't you have better things to do? Doesn't your school have a forum? Get a life dude! I'm waiting for the day to have discussion with people that want to seriously talk about improving online education and helping students manage work and school, etc... Not this garbage. My point was and still is -You don't know for certain , Neil! What don't you get about that? However, you keep making claims that could hurt people and a school's reputation! My claims do not hurt anyone! If someone doesn't want to believe me, then don't enroll at IUHS. No harm done. But what you don't get is that there are real people out there who have invested money and time into this school and do not deserve to have their school questioned and attacked by the likes of you! Who do you think you are? Stop it already! If you don't like IUHS, get off our website, go to Charles U website, and talk about ...............ummm....... exactly.. you would have nothing to talk about.

listen, my main man...you came on here making a big post about how great iuhs is. you opened the door for questioning. now don't start this "what about charles uni" crap because 1) i didn't start some lame thread about how people shouldn't assume CU is bad, and 2) because my school has licensed grads all over the US, and is a well recognized international university. i can assure you that if we look hard enough we will find a CU grad in AL. i will look into it if it makes you feel better.

your school is not being questioned and attacked here, either. YOU are. YOUR assertations that your school is fine somewhere. YOUR claims about states being ok merely because they do not specifically mention physical attendence on the website.

don't cry to me about the "poor students" getting thier school questioned. what about the poor potential students that buy what you are trying to sell, and wind up getting denied in some state that didn't happen to post on the website that they won't accept online grads?

students of legit schools do not mind questions being asked. because they have nothing to hide. if your school and students have such a tenuous grip on validity that a few direct questions are that threatening...well, then you guys are screwed anyway, it will just be a matter of time.

when i hear anything definitive, i will be happy to post it, good or bad. there may well be a state or two that don't care about online learning. that would be great for you, and i will be the first to admit that i was wrong IF that turns out to be the case. as it is now, i stand by the SAFEST assumption, which is that any state that either does not have an already licensed grad or that has not sent you some direct correspondence addressing the question about internet/online learning should be considered a NO GO for any IUHS grad.

we will see soon enough.

neilc
01-06-2006, 11:33 PM
I know Neil. You have an answer for everything.

i sure do. you should look into getting answers as well. and, if you have them, why not share them????

neilc
01-06-2006, 11:35 PM
... If you don't like IUHS, get off our website, go to Charles U website, and talk about ...............ummm....... exactly.. you would have nothing to talk about.

i loved this so much i had to quote you!

yeah, the benefit of going to a decent school is that you don't have to worry about (or talk about) this nonsense. it helps you sleep better at night. i highly encourage students to go to reputable schools, and avoid all of these "things to talk about".

maximillian genossa
01-06-2006, 11:38 PM
"I'm waiting for the day to have discussion with people that want to seriously talk about improving online education and helping students manage work and school, etc.."

We did that last week, on this same forum, same thread, anatomy guy, myself, and a couple of other folks. It was really good. Even Neilc participated and had some good valid objective points to share. Check it out, the problem was that, that discussion got hijacked by all this IUHS tug of war between several parties, Ming, Carmen, NeilC, Az, myself and of course you.
We can try it once again nevertheless.

As I said before, to all who might have a gripe against IUHS hire a lawyer and sue them.

Can we go back to a good discussion on how to improve online basic sciences education?

Cheers,

Max

Neil, there is no guarantee that your school would be approved in Arkansas either. But, nobody in here is bashing Charles University, wherever and whatever that school is. Don't you have better things to do? Doesn't your school have a forum? Get a life dude! I'm waiting for the day to have discussion with people that want to seriously talk about improving online education and helping students manage work and school, etc... Not this garbage. My point was and still is -You don't know for certain , Neil! What don't you get about that? However, you keep making claims that could hurt people and a school's reputation! My claims do not hurt anyone! If someone doesn't want to believe me, then don't enroll at IUHS. No harm done. But what you don't get is that there are real people out there who have invested money and time into this school and do not deserve to have their school questioned and attacked by the likes of you! Who do you think you are? Stop it already! If you don't like IUHS, get off our website, go to Charles U website, and talk about ...............ummm....... exactly.. you would have nothing to talk about.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 11:39 PM
This discussion has not been based on "offshore schools" eligibility for licensure Neil! The topic is "distance, online learning". And, there is not mention in either state's regulation regarding this topic. Period. Hence, you cannot say with any degree of certainty that IUHS grads will not get licensed in every state because , for the 100000000th time!!! (sorry anatomyguy) YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I never said they could for 100% sure. However, I did say that there is an IUHS grad who is licensed, and the school has residents practicing in more than 1 state. You keep harping me for the state's names, but just like I said there was no mention of physical attendance in some states regualtions, and you doubted that fact, the same is true for our resident and licensed doc. However, I am not going to get that information for you Neil. You need to find that on your own. But, you won't. Why? Again, we know the answer to that. Case closed!

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 11:49 PM
I agree Genossa. Do you know of any distance learning systems that are conducive (sp?) to medical education? IUhs has a pretty good one. It has live, realtime video and audio. Profs can type in a chat window and converse directly w/ students. Also, IUHS posts all of its lectures, including video and audio for students to view for review, etc... Some things that may use improvement are incorporation of "hands-on" labs, especially for biochem and micro. Path slides are excellent in the lectures I've seen. Gross and microscopic anatomic slids have also been pretty good. However, I think students could benefit from real dissection and perparation of slides. Maybe forming alliances with US med schools might be the answer. I don't know? Thoughts?

maximillian genossa
01-06-2006, 11:50 PM
I hope is case closed. Lets stop it. Where is a moderator when you need one to lock this circular discussion?????

We can start practicing algebra, geometry, calculus again on this circle. Please guys stop it. NeilC, beat the temptation of replying, you went to Charles, excellent school, no kidding, IUHSMS4, you chose IUHS, thats your business.

Can we agree to this?

Stop the attacks, it will never end.

Doc, Steph, Teratos, anybody! lock this frigging thing up!

I just wanted to have a nice exchange of ideas, not frigging world war iii between pro-IUHS and anti-IUHS.

Ahhhh, I feel much better now. time for a beer.

Max



This discussion has not been based on "offshore schools" eligibility for licensure Neil! The topic is "distance, online learning". And, there is not mention in either state's regulation regarding this topic. Period. Hence, you cannot say with any degree of certainty that IUHS grads will not get licensed in every state because , for the 100000000th time!!! (sorry anatomyguy) YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I never said they could for 100% sure. However, I did say that there is an IUHS grad who is licensed, and the school has residents practicing in more than 1 state. You keep harping me for the state's names, but just like I said there was no mention of physical attendance in some states regualtions, and you doubted that fact, the same is true for our resident and licensed doc. However, I am not going to get that information for you Neil. You need to find that on your own. But, you won't. Why? Again, we know the answer to that. Case closed!

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 11:53 PM
I agree Genossa! IUHS has a pretty good online system. Live video and audio lectures w/ chat room that students and profs can communicate real time in. They post all lectures, incl. video and audio for later reference. However, I think students may benefit from "hands on" experiences like dissections, preparation of slides, and Biochem labs (ELISA, Gel electrophoresis, etc..) Maybe the answer is forming alliances w/ US, Canadian, etc.. med schools for access to labs and instruction. I don't know. Thoughts?

neilc
01-06-2006, 11:54 PM
This discussion has not been based on "offshore schools" eligibility for licensure Neil! The topic is "distance, online learning". And, there is not mention in either state's regulation regarding this topic. Period. Hence, you cannot say with any degree of certainty that IUHS grads will not get licensed in every state because , for the 100000000th time!!! (sorry anatomyguy) YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I never said they could for 100% sure. However, I did say that there is an IUHS grad who is licensed, and the school has residents practicing in more than 1 state. You keep harping me for the state's names, but just like I said there was no mention of physical attendance in some states regualtions, and you doubted that fact, the same is true for our resident and licensed doc. However, I am not going to get that information for you Neil. You need to find that on your own. But, you won't. Why? Again, we know the answer to that. Case closed!

talk about going in circles....

ok, neither one of us know 100% anything! except that we both will eventually die and pay taxes. ok, got that out of the way....

your clear implication is that IUHS is ok. you have zero evidence that you will share. the only possible support you can gather is a lack of specific exclusion. great. that is resounding support.

my clear implication is that IUHS will have trouble getting grads licensed from the online program. as evidence, i have provided info on several states that prohibit this type of learning. you provided evidence of this as well. i also went to the trouble of emailing IUHS for the grad and residents names (no reply, none really expected). additionally, i emailed nearly all the state boards and asked them directly about the online curriculum and licensure. i have agreed to post whatever i find.

what really gets me about you is your hypocrisy. you demand i provide evidence, yet you sit back and say "hey, i never said we could 100% get licensed" or "i am not going to provide you with names, do the work yourself". you started this thread, yet you get upset at the "bashing" when people ask valid questions.

you are pretty clearly unable to have an intelligent discussion, perform the research that you claim is so important, or base your arguments on data.

anyhow, if an when a state sends me an email saying "we will accept that type of education for licensure", i will be very happy to post it. i will celebrate with you! but, when we get those back that say "no way in hell will we license that grad" (and i can PROMISE you that we will), you cannot go blaming me, calling me a basher and saying that the state med board is wrong. you cannot have it both ways.

it is pretty clear that you want to lay low, and try to sneak through under the radar without the states being too aware of IUHS. it seems you are banking on some vague wording in regulations, and the mere absence of direct prohibition of this type of education. i am afraid that is a poorly though out policy.

iuhsms4
01-06-2006, 11:54 PM
Sorry for the double post. I thought I got logged out before I posted the first message.

maximillian genossa
01-06-2006, 11:58 PM
I do remember when IUHS was using chat session for conferences and lectures. It seems they have made some improvements. I do know that France has a steering committee working on a virtual medical school project similar to what you just mentioned. Nothing beats hand on experience for labs, that is one of the things I miss from Microbiology and Pathology. Precisely what anatomy guy mentioned last week, this kind of training requires a 3-D approach that an online lecture cannot provide. Still doable nevertheless.

Anatomy guy, your input please?

Thanks

Max






I agree Genossa. Do you know of any distance learning systems that are conducive (sp?) to medical education? IUhs has a pretty good one. It has live, realtime video and audio. Profs can type in a chat window and converse directly w/ students. Also, IUHS posts all of its lectures, including video and audio for students to view for review, etc... Some things that may use improvement are incorporation of "hands-on" labs, especially for biochem and micro. Path slides are excellent in the lectures I've seen. Gross and microscopic anatomic slids have also been pretty good. However, I think students could benefit from real dissection and perparation of slides. Maybe forming alliances with US med schools might be the answer. I don't know? Thoughts?

neilc
01-07-2006, 12:00 AM
I agree Genossa! IUHS has a pretty good online system. Live video and audio lectures w/ chat room that students and profs can communicate real time in. They post all lectures, incl. video and audio for later reference. However, I think students may benefit from "hands on" experiences like dissections, preparation of slides, and Biochem labs (ELISA, Gel electrophoresis, etc..) Maybe the answer is forming alliances w/ US, Canadian, etc.. med schools for access to labs and instruction. I don't know. Thoughts?

i am of the mind that a good online curriculum should be developed within a traditional classroom education, and then gradually grown outward.

it seems a bit ambitious to just take a curriculum and go 100% online from day one. if you look at the schools that currenly use the online curriculum, they tend to use it as a complement to the more traditional classroom work.

with that being said, i do not think that all of the hands on lab stuff that i did was neccessary. i mean, i was doing freakin spectromety and chromotographies, titrations, etc...in biochem. talk about wasted time. and, histo slides sucked. far better to use some crisp, already focused slides on the computer. so, there is certainly a place for modernization of medical education, and a lot of room for a lot of the basic science to move onto the computer. however, i do not think that this idea has reached the point where it is ready to be completely done outside the classroom yet.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 12:02 AM
Neil, my original post was entitled "assumptions" in response to yours and others "assumptions" not based on factual knowledge. Please refrain from posting derogatory posts about any school that could be damaging to the repuattion of that school without making sure you have hard, solid evidence! That's it! You are finally gathering data that may or may not support your claim. However, I posted regulations of 3 states, of which 2 did not mention exclusionary criteria of licensure based on online education. "Unapproved school" could also mean Charles U. You don't know that. Neither do i. However, the difference is, if you had a beef about Charles U., you would irresponsibly post that grads from Charles U cannot get licensed in any state based on they MAY NOT be an approved school. That is what you've done in respect to IUHS in regards to denial of licensure based on online pre-clinical education. That is wrong and intolerable. That is why I started this thread, Neil!

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 12:08 AM
I agree Genossa. Hands-on labs are imporatnt. I don't think it should be all about,"Why am I learning this stuff? I'll never do gas chromotography as a doc." Medical school is not job-training, tech school. Physicians are both scientists and clinicians. I think that hands on labs bring more depth and breadth to medical education.

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 12:09 AM
There you have an example of a few things that can be done online, biochem, genetics and pharma. I don't know you guys, but I have to admit passing out many times during pharma lectures. How about pathophysiology? I think it can be done using slides and power point presentations.

Any thoughts?






i am of the mind that a good online curriculum should be developed within a traditional classroom education, and then gradually grown outward.
it seems a bit ambitious to just take a curriculum and go 100% online from day one. if you look at the schools that currenly use the online curriculum, they tend to use it as a complement to the more traditional classroom work.
with that being said, i do not think that all of the hands on lab stuff that i did was neccessary. i mean, i was doing freakin spectromety and chromotographies, titrations, etc...in biochem. talk about wasted time. and, histo slides sucked. far better to use some crisp, already focused slides on the computer. so, there is certainly a place for modernization of medical education, and a lot of room for a lot of the basic science to move onto the computer. however, i do not think that this idea has reached the point where it is ready to be completely done outside the classroom yet.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 12:20 AM
However, Neil - predominately classroom medical education has to be offered at the medical school's home campus. In the case of an offshore school, that would defeat the whole purpose why students are attracted to an online school like IUHS. I can only speak for myself. I was unable to leave my home state for several reasons which include financial obligations, having a 7 year old child who lives with my ex, and being recently married to a nurse who was unable to find gainful employment abroad. Medical school was out of the question for me until I found IUHS. I had 4.00 pre-med GPA, 31 MCAT, and a Masters in Physiology, however US med schools were far too expensive and didn't offer assistanships, etc... to help me with my financial obligations. Hence, IUHS was my answer and I enrolled after researching my state's licensure requirements extensively. If IUHS had a substantial on-site classroom component, I could had never enrolled. So, the question is, how can programs like IUHS improve while still affording folks with my needs the opportunity to earn a medical degree and obtain licensure. Just a thought.

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 12:22 AM
IUHSMS4, here are quotes from last week discussion from Prof and anatomy guy. Read them and tell me what you think and how IUHS can benefit, adapt or improve.

Originally Posted by anatomy_guy
As a medical faculty member involved in using educational technology or the internet in education, I have to point out that there are some pitfalls and good uses of the internet in basic sciences for the first 2 years. Ron Harden at the Centre for Medical Education, University of Dundee in Scotland is trying to put together IVIMEDS, which is an internet version of medical education. He has already established a curriculum, which is not difficult given the standardization of medical education in the UK and elsewhere. Technically, the knowledge required can be acquired whether by lecture, problem based learning or group study or systems or regional based learning or independent self learning. However, in anatomy and pathology, one needs to see the human cadaver or the expanse of tumours and disease to gain an understanding of the extent of disease or the relationship of anatomical structures so one can build a 3D picture of the human body. It is really a matter of scale and relationships of anatomical structures before one truly understands anatomy. Pathology is not just what is found in Robbins et al but also the experiences and folklore you learn from academic and clinical pathologists. Seeing the pathological specimen very often helps you understand what the extent of disease can be and why it appears as it does in clinical presentation. I have taught medical, dental, nursing and occupational therapy students anatomy and physiology and the one aspect that they have remarked about upon seeing the anatomical specimens and some of the pathology is that they had a realistic scale and understanding about what the anatomical structures or pathology actually was and how they are related 3D. Also, lacking through the internet version of basic sciences medical education is how to do history, physical examination, diagnosis and prognosis or the various aspects of a medical interview. What philosophy of medicine is being taught? If it is patient centered, you need to see it in action and unfortunately, the internet does not and can not really convey this aspect very well. Having an independent study method where one links with a physician would be good but you actually need to link with many physicians so students can take the good aspects of these physicians and dispose of the bad habits they see in them. If you train with only one physician, you only see one way of doing the medical interview or HPE and thus you do not develop your own methods. Let me side track, I was a soccer referee who reached the national or professional levels for a few years. I learned my craft from working with many excellent, top notch or top level referees and assistant referees. I used some of the things, such as player management or awarding a penalty kick without being hassled or questioned, I saw from these referees because they worked for me but I had to discard some of the other techniques because they did not work for my personality or myself in general. The same is true in medical communications. You will be given a method for delivering bad news such as a cancer diagnosis or a diagnosis of terminal disease to patients, however, you will need to develop your own method that works with a variety of patients for yourself. If you are uncomfortable with handling this situation, patients will pick up on this and be uncomfortable as well and then the situation can totally breakdown with no resolution. This is not a good outcome for anyone. Some physicians in training develop a thick skin like "House" on TV and think this is good--personally I think "House's" manner stinks as he is a self absorbed a--hole and gives physicians a bad reputation. Others try having a caring attitude such as "****" on ER. But TV aside, you, the individual physician in training, need to develop your own style. The internet is not a place to do this nor is having a single mentor a good approach either. This is why stand alone institutional medical schools associated with a particular area are important because it is the variety and not the singleness of one's approach that adds to the educational experience. IUHS program really needs to be more in line with IVIMEDS and use many mentors and be properly monitored and administered. This takes time, effort and money, but in the long run can contribute greatly to the future of medical education if done right!!

Originally Posted by prof
This is such an interesting topic, as we as American educators are now dealing significantly with how to get the basic and clinical didactic material to the students via technology. The latest I heard last week was that we should now be considering "podcasting", so that our material can be seen by the students and residents anywhere they are on "ipods". With the increase in Allied Health students, especially the physical therapy doctors to be (yes they get doctorates now too), and the rapid increase in nursing students (big nursing shortage in country), lecture rooms are at an all time premium. Nobody wants to build new lecture rooms, because they all want to build new laboratory space for researchers, and specialized outpatient/daysurgery clinics. Tight budgets are not replacing the retiring basic science professors, unless the new hires are fully funded researchers (that don't want to teach). Thus technology will be hitting us much faster than many of us thought. And of course as the lectures are becoming webbased, now all the involved professors want intellectual rights to any use of them. Some American schools are working hard to put out excellent approved web based series so that they can market them to other schools. You can see how fast this is moving in CME training. The basic science professors see this as a way to be entrepreneurial and bring dollars into their departments, so they can have less teaching duties and get more NIH research grants which has become the golden goose for all US medical schools now. State budget constraints and the high expense of training medical students at state institutions without much tuition reimbursement will create many novel education models in the next few years. The impending doctor shortage will likely force some states to start new medical schools, increase class size, or bring back the 3 year MD.

Originally Posted by anatomy_guy
Better terminology for online degree when a degree may not be truly online is the use of instructional technology or e-learning for portions that are on line. I have dealt with this aspect on numerous occasions. I was even involved in setting up e-learning for a new medical school. E-learning is not a bad educational tool if done appropriately and with student interaction at the maximum level! E-learning encourages maximum student interaction whether intended or not. Those that do not avail themselves of the e-learning opportunities will miss out tremendously and loose out on exams or other summative assessment. E-learning requires a certain number and level of participants to be successful.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 12:23 AM
Absolutely Genossa. In fact, biochem mechanisms are often also displayed w/ animation on powerpoint. Kaplan has a biochem instructor who has mastered the art. It is defintely an art! However, memorable and engaging!

neilc
01-07-2006, 12:27 AM
However, Neil - predominately classroom medical education has to be offered at the medical school's home campus. In the case of an offshore school, that would defeat the whole purpose why students are attracted to an online school like IUHS. I can only speak for myself. I was unable to leave my home state for several reasons which include financial obligations, having a 7 year old child who lives with my ex, and being recently married to a nurse who was unable to find gainful employment abroad. Medical school was out of the question for me until I found IUHS. I had 4.00 pre-med GPA, 31 MCAT, and a Masters in Physiology, however US med schools were far too expensive and didn't offer assistanships, etc... to help me with my financial obligations. Hence, IUHS was my answer and I enrolled after researching my state's licensure requirements extensively. If IUHS had a substantial on-site classroom component, I could had never enrolled. So, the question is, how can programs like IUHS improve while still affording folks with my needs the opportunity to earn a medical degree and obtain licensure. Just a thought.

no offense, but i don't think the question is really "how can i get a medical education that fits into my personal situation". while i understand that everybody has different demands, that is really a peripheral concern.

i do understand that you want to practice medicine, and that you appear to be qualified to undertake that education. however, that doesn't really mean that you get to bend the education around your needs....so, your situation, while important to you, doesn't really factor in to the question about developing online learning. in fact, it shows that the programs in existence were really not released because they were acadmically developed and established, but rather to fill a demand in the marketplace.

so, i do have to stand by what i think needs to happen in the evolution of this. it is a great idea in a lot of ways, but not ready to go 100% online. for it to be accepted as the norm, especially in the conservative world of medicine, it will need to be developed, and shown to be as effective. IMHO, that is going to take place in a stepwise fashion.

neilc
01-07-2006, 12:35 AM
There you have an example of a few things that can be done online, biochem, genetics and pharma. I don't know you guys, but I have to admit passing out many times during pharma lectures. How about pathophysiology? I think it can be done using slides and power point presentations.
Any thoughts?

i would say biochem and pharm for sure. in fact, even at my school we used computer programs in the lab for all the labwork in pharm. no reason we couldn't do that online, and read powerpoints or have a chat for a lecture in that class. biochem was a snoozefest, and is a pretty tough class to teach. the caveat in biochem, however, is that if you are lucky enough to get a good prof, it can help a very difficult subject become much easier.

the classes i think would be very, very difficult online are anatomy, physio, pathophs and path. anatomy, lectures maybe. lab no way. i don't think you need cadavers, but you do need to play around with models, and have some good instruction from dedicated anatomy instructors. physio, the same. you gotta do the lab work, run the ekgs, cut open the mice, etc...and, you need somebody there, expert in the field to challenge you and to answer your individual classes. pathophys we did as a pbl course, and always had patient presentations, problem solving, etc...these were very animated, and VERY helpful. i think it would lose a lot of the benefit of small group discussion if it was via online. it was a great "fly by the seat of your pants" excercise. path could have been done partly online. but, again, that was a very "hands on" teaching class. the material would be very tough to learn without having the material (slides or autopsy) right there in front of you and without having a true expert in the field going over anything you saw or didn't understand.

outsided of these classes, i think you can certainly make an argument for at least a portion of the class being taught via distance education. i am doing a nutrition class that way right now!

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 12:39 AM
Neil,

IUHS is not 100% online. Like I said before, there is an on-campus requirement prior to clinicals, and students must have a mentor who facilitates their acquisition of clinical skills. During your pre-clinical years at IUHS, you must submit H&P's and progress notes to the school, Also, the mentor must sign off on your attendance. I don't think that is enough though. Online programs should somehow offer students opportunities for anatomic dissection, and other valubale laboratory experiences. The question is how. Are there laws that state that medical education offered from non-us schools cannot be implemented on US soil? I don't know. Does anybody know? If not, maybe the answer is requiring programs to have satellite campuses in each state the school has students. These campuses would be centers for lab sections, clinical skills courses, etc.. The didactic component could be online and the students would be required to attend x hours a week of lab sections at the satellite campus. I am sure cost and state business laws might hinder such an idea. I don't know. Thoughts?

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 12:40 AM
Neil, you bring up an interesting point and that is that just like IUHSMS4 there are several hundreds of people in pretty much his same situation and enterprises like IUHS have identified this as a potential niche market to introduce their brand of education. Innovative, but due to the lack of experience by anyone, they basically started something new, with potential positive results that unfortunately has been, somehow, mismanaged or undermanaged. At one point, to accomplish this the system had to be bent to introduce a new concept. The market is there.

Lets not engage now in discussing how it has been mismanaged, lets focus on how , for example an institution can do this without so many pitfalls. IUHSMS4 mentioned alliances with other schools. I think that at least from the USA it will not happen because of what Neil mentioned, medicine is a conservative world, especially in the US. How about Canada or Australia alliances?



no offense, but i don't think the question is really "how can i get a medical education that fits into my personal situation". while i understand that everybody has different demands, that is really a peripheral concern.
i do understand that you want to practice medicine, and that you appear to be qualified to undertake that education. however, that doesn't really mean that you get to bend the education around your needs....so, your situation, while important to you, doesn't really factor in to the question about developing online learning. in fact, it shows that the programs in existence were really not released because they were acadmically developed and established, but rather to fill a demand in the marketplace.
so, i do have to stand by what i think needs to happen in the evolution of this. it is a great idea in a lot of ways, but not ready to go 100% online. for it to be accepted as the norm, especially in the conservative world of medicine, it will need to be developed, and shown to be as effective. IMHO, that is going to take place in a stepwise fashion.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 12:45 AM
Neil, beileve it or not, most everybody picks a program partly based on their own personal situations. Ask yourself, why am I in Prague? Why didn't I attend a US medical school? Why didn't I go to Ross U? You had your own personal reasons for choosing Charles U, and I had my own personal reasons for choosing IUHS. It's that simple. Should state medical boards deny acceptance of your nutrition class because you took the class online? Are you learning less than someone who took it in a classroom? How dare you! :)

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 12:47 AM
Well I do remember that IUHS has an on campus program as well. I do not know and do not wish to discuss the facilities, but I attended it back in 2000 and it was very humble. That aside, the PBL format helped overcome certain obstacles we had back then. That was 6 years ago, then I went to another school, in the Caribbean, so to say, actually it is in Mexico.

Neil,
IUHS is not 100% online. Like I said before, there is an on-campus requirement prior to clinicals, and students must have a mentor who facilitates their acquisition of clinical skills. During your pre-clinical years at IUHS, you must submit H&P's and progress notes to the school, Also, the mentor must sign off on your attendance. I don't think that is enough though. Online programs should somehow offer students opportunities for anatomic dissection, and other valubale laboratory experiences. The question is how. Are there laws that state that medical education offered from non-us schools cannot be implemented on US soil? I don't know. Does anybody know? If not, maybe the answer is requiring programs to have satellite campuses in each state the school has students. These campuses would be centers for lab sections, clinical skills courses, etc.. The didactic component could be online and the students would be required to attend x hours a week of lab sections at the satellite campus. I am sure cost and state business laws might hinder such an idea. I don't know. Thoughts?

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 12:53 AM
We do select programs based on our individual needs, reason why I ended up in Mexico. I knew the language, I knew the culture, it was cheap and ultimately I decided to do the full fledge thing, internship and social services not the fifth pathway thing that will allow me to only practice in the USA. What if I decide to leave the US in the future? I will find myself with what is considered by some countries an incomplete education from the country I attended school.




Neil, beileve it or not, most everybody picks a program partly based on their own personal situations. Ask yourself, why am I in Prague? Why didn't I attend a US medical school? Why didn't I go to Ross U? You had your own personal reasons for choosing Charles U, and I had my own personal reasons for choosing IUHS. It's that simple. Should state medical boards deny acceptance of your nutrition class because you took the class online? Are you learning less than someone who took it in a classroom? How dare you! :)

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 12:56 AM
Am I the only one on this forum who is doing rotations in the US at a green book hospital? Where is everybody at? Are you still in med school? If so, how far along? Have you taken USMLE exams? If so, which ones. Did you pass? If so, how many attempts? It just occurred to me that I have no idea about the majority of your backgrounds. Please post and be honest!

Me. US, 4th years med student currently doing ICU elective @ a US hospital, USMLE Step 1 Pass 1st time, USMLE Step 2 CS Waiting for results.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 12:59 AM
oh. also enrolled for Step 2 CK Feb 2006. Plan to match or scramble in IM or FP in March 2006.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 01:00 AM
Anybody else?

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 01:03 AM
Last thing- Please include all of the things I disclosed. I've had 3 interviews, no pre-matches, scheduled for 2 more interviews later this month. OK. Now somebody else tell us your background, including everything I just included in this and my last 3 posts.

neilc
01-07-2006, 01:11 AM
Neil, beileve it or not, most everybody picks a program partly based on their own personal situations. Ask yourself, why am I in Prague? Why didn't I attend a US medical school? Why didn't I go to Ross U? You had your own personal reasons for choosing Charles U, and I had my own personal reasons for choosing IUHS. It's that simple. Should state medical boards deny acceptance of your nutrition class because you took the class online? Are you learning less than someone who took it in a classroom? How dare you! :)

first off, i thought we were discussing online education, and our thoughts on how to develop it. that is why i mentioned that i thought you personal situation was peripheral to the whole of distance education. in your situation, the why YOU are there is important. in the how to develop education, your personal reasons for choosing it are inconsequential.

since you brought it up, certainly everybody chooses med school for personal reasons. but, i think the over riding concern is licensability vs teaching method. i can assure you that i did not pick prague because i though the teaching style was better. i picked it because it was cheap, and it would not limit me as to where i can work. the license was the most important to me, after that was determined, everything else was looked at.

as far as my online nutrition course....well, this is a specific course designed for personal or professional enrichment. it is not a required course, nor is it a med school course. i do think that the classroom nutrition course is a lot more in depth, and is more demanding. it is certainly more appropriate for nutrition majors than the diluted distance version is. so, in my experience, i think it is great for extra learning, but inappropriate for the "meat and potatoes". i am also working while taking this class, and i can see that it would be impossible to get a good medical education while also working. just too few hours in the day for it all. so, my experience with online courses, although admittedly shallow, seems to reinforce my idea that online is best used to complement rather than teach exclusively.

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 01:12 AM
Everything done in the country of my school, like the good old days. What I see with this business of setting off for the Caribbean or any international destination for just your basic sciences is like having defacto US private schools offshore since they come to the US for rotations. I have always scratched my head over that. But, whatever works dude, whatever works. I know in my case I will have to do a transitional year, if I decide to set foot in the US for good again. What I have seen and learned has humbled me deeply, and I will not change that for anything else in this world.







Am I the only one on this forum who is doing rotations in the US at a green book hospital? Where is everybody at? Are you still in med school? If so, how far along? Have you taken USMLE exams? If so, which ones. Did you pass? If so, how many attempts? It just occurred to me that I have no idea about the majority of your backgrounds. Please post and be honest!

Me. US, 4th years med student currently doing ICU elective @ a US hospital, USMLE Step 1 Pass 1st time, USMLE Step 2 CS Waiting for results.

neilc
01-07-2006, 01:13 AM
Last thing- Please include all of the things I disclosed. I've had 3 interviews, no pre-matches, scheduled for 2 more interviews later this month. OK. Now somebody else tell us your background, including everything I just included in this and my last 3 posts.

step 1, first time pass 192/78
step 2ck, first time pass 234/95
step 2cs, awaiting results
applied to about 30 ob/gyn programs (university and univ affiliated community), was invited to about 22 interviews, accepted 12, went on 8 and accepted a pre-match at my program that was tied for number 1. (many of my programs were in CA also, which i was very happy about)

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 01:14 AM
we will end up in another tangent, drifting aways from out main topic.

Me...I am heading to PR which BTW does not license anybody from any non-spanish speaking Caribbean medical school. Just a handful of medical schools in Dominican Republic, Mexico, all US schools and very few from Europe. Neil, Prague is ok in PR if you did everything there, same applies with Spain.




Last thing- Please include all of the things I disclosed. I've had 3 interviews, no pre-matches, scheduled for 2 more interviews later this month. OK. Now somebody else tell us your background, including everything I just included in this and my last 3 posts.

neilc
01-07-2006, 01:19 AM
Neil,

IUHS is not 100% online. Like I said before, there is an on-campus requirement prior to clinicals, and students must have a mentor who facilitates their acquisition of clinical skills. During your pre-clinical years at IUHS, you must submit H&P's and progress notes to the school, Also, the mentor must sign off on your attendance. I don't think that is enough though. Online programs should somehow offer students opportunities for anatomic dissection, and other valubale laboratory experiences. The question is how. Are there laws that state that medical education offered from non-us schools cannot be implemented on US soil? I don't know. Does anybody know? If not, maybe the answer is requiring programs to have satellite campuses in each state the school has students. These campuses would be centers for lab sections, clinical skills courses, etc.. The didactic component could be online and the students would be required to attend x hours a week of lab sections at the satellite campus. I am sure cost and state business laws might hinder such an idea. I don't know. Thoughts?

while i am sure IUHS is not 100% online, that really is nit picking. you go to the island for a few weeks (4, if i recall correctly) before clinicals. you meet with your mentor. but, there is no real "instruction" outside of the mentor. it is tough to imagine many mentors out there that would have in depth understanding (on a professor level) of all the classes you take. it is tough to imagine anybody having that kind of fund of knowledge! and, you do the VAST majority of the work online. let's not nit pick over details...for all intents and purposes, it is an online program, right?


operating an offshore med school in the states was looked into by ross university. they proposed having a campus in wyoming, on native american land. got beaten into submission on this. does not look good for offshore schools in this regard.

some schools do offer "pre clinical" semesters in the states. or they partner with a masters program, and offer a semester in the states that way. that seems to work ok.

but, it seems unlikely that an offshore school would be able to overcome the legal issues. also, i imagine that it would be very difficult to find a med school that would partner with you in the states.

neilc
01-07-2006, 01:23 AM
oh. also enrolled for Step 2 CK Feb 2006. Plan to match or scramble in IM or FP in March 2006.


call me crazy, but if you haven't sat CK yet, you are not going to match 2006. also, very unlikely to scramble without CK results.

i hate to be the one to tell you, but if you have not passed all exams (1, CK and CS) by rank order day, NRMP yanks you from the match. you can still scramble, but you will likely have some issues getting a contract without CK. you better be taking it early feb to have results by mid march.

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 01:26 AM
licensability vs teaching method.

Two different monsters. Most IMG do not understand this concept and find themselves looking for loopholes once they realize the school they attended may not be elegible for licensure in their desired jurisdiction.

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 01:36 AM
I remember the Ross case and followed it closely. A school with an obscene amount of money and an established program and reputation could not overcome the legal hurdles. I don't want to imagine anyone else. As a matter of fact that is part of the reasons why your school IUHSMS4 ran into some problems in Florida.

PM me for the details, they are juicy.

I am signing off dudes, good night, it turned out good after all. Thanks for your response to my pleads of not killing each other.




while i am sure IUHS is not 100% online, that really is nit picking. you go to the island for a few weeks (4, if i recall correctly) before clinicals. you meet with your mentor. but, there is no real "instruction" outside of the mentor. it is tough to imagine many mentors out there that would have in depth understanding (on a professor level) of all the classes you take. it is tough to imagine anybody having that kind of fund of knowledge! and, you do the VAST majority of the work online. let's not nit pick over details...for all intents and purposes, it is an online program, right?
operating an offshore med school in the states was looked into by ross university. they proposed having a campus in wyoming, on native american land. got beaten into submission on this. does not look good for offshore schools in this regard.
some schools do offer "pre clinical" semesters in the states. or they partner with a masters program, and offer a semester in the states that way. that seems to work ok.
but, it seems unlikely that an offshore school would be able to overcome the legal issues. also, i imagine that it would be very difficult to find a med school that would partner with you in the states.
:nuts:

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 02:26 AM
I will be starting a new thread entitiled, "Improving online education" Please join me. I look forward to seeing everybody there.

IUHSMS4

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 02:27 AM
So finally we can put the "assumption" thread to rest. Below is a compilation of unsubstantiated quotes spread on this forum. My postings from Arkansas and Alaska licensing requirements show that nobody can say for certain that online pre-clinicals are definitive exclusionary criteria for licensure in all 50 states. Also, IUHS does require students to submit H & P's, progress notes, etc.. and have documented mentors for clinical experiences during pre-clinical years. Also, IUHS has an on-campus requirement for all students prior to beginning clinical roatations. My comments are in parenthesis and capitalized- sorry anatomyguy, I promise I am not yelling. Just differentiating the texts. Enjoy.

ming said. "If you contact EACH AND EVERY STATE, ask them the question at hand, you will discover they will NOT license any student who has done on-line basic sciences (NOT TRUE. MANY STATES EVALUATE APPLICANTS CASE BY CASE. HOWEVER, THERE IS NOT A DEFINITE EXCLUSIONARY CRITERIA FOR ONLINE PRE-CLINICAL EDUCATION IN SOME STATE'S REGULATIONS. I'VE PERSONALLY CONTACTED ATLEAST 1 STATE WHO CONCURS. AND, NO, I WILL NOT DISCLOSE THE STATE'S NAME- SO DON'T ASK. HOWEVER, IF YOU CALL EVERY STATE'S MEDICAL BOARD YOU WILL EVENTUALLY FIND THE STATE I AM REFERRING TO.)

Then , Ming said. You are correct that all the states do not require physical attendance.(MING FINALLY GOT IT!) I have contacted all the states and if you wish, I would be happy to elicite for each and every one of them. However, you may not have asked the correct questions. When I had full disclosure questions with them, they respond that they WILL be requiring physical attendance. (MING- IUHS DOES REQUIRE PHYSICAL ATTENDANCE. ALSO, THE KEY WORD HERE MING IS ...."WILL" FUTURE TENSE, NOT PRESENT. FIRST, YOU SAID, "STATES WILL NOT LICENSE ONLINE STUDENTS", NOW, YOU SAY, "THEY WILL EVENTUALLY BE REQUIRING PHYSICAL ATTENDANCE." EITHER WAY MING, IUHS COMPLIES WITH THAT REQUIREMENT. ALSO, YOUR STATEMENT "THEY (ALL STATES) WILL NOT LICENSE ANY STUDENT WHO HAS DONE ON-LINE BASIC SCIENCES" IS NOT YET VERIFIABLE. HENCE, IT IS UNFOUNDED, IRRESPONSIBLE, AND POTENTIALLY HARMFUL AND MISLEADING TO PEOPLE WHO ATTEND OR ARE CONSIDERING ATTENDING IUHS. PLEASE BE 100% SURE OF YOUR STATEMENTS BEFORE SAYING SOMETHING THAT MIGHT AFFECT ANOTHERS LIFE AND CAREER.)

carmen said. "Taking pathology on-line at Harvard is fine, but doing your entire pre-clinical education without labs, hospital experience, patient interaction, simulated patient exams, etc. is deficient. Ming is correct in what all medical licensing facilities will tell you. If you call and say "I attend Harvard and took Pathology on-line", they will probably welcome you. But if you state "I attend IUHS and I stayed home and worked while I did my medical education at night without ever attending the island of St. Kitts or mentoring in a hospital", they will tell you to stay away. (AGAIN CARMEN, IUHS STUDENTS MUST PHYSICALLY ATTEND CLASSES ON THE ISLAND OF ST. KITTS PRIOR TO CLINICAL ROTATIONS. ALSO, IUHS STUDENTS ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE A MENTOR WHO EXPOSES THEM TO CLINICAL ENCOUNTERS AND HOSPITAL EXPERIENCES DURING THE 1ST 2 YEARS OF PRE-CLINICAL EDUCATION. FURTHERMORE, HOW DO YOU KNOW FOR SURE THAT "THEY" WILL SAY STAY AWAY. AGAIN, ASSUMPTIONS FOLKS! BUT THE KIND OF ASSUMPTION THAT MAY BE HARMFUL.)

neil said. you are right, IUHS does not have to verify anything. however, a simple call to the state boards will clearly show that they DO NOT license distance education grads. (NOT TRUE- MANY STATES EVALUATE APPLICANTS CASE BY CASE. WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE HOW IUHS GRADS WILL FAIR YET AS ONLY 1 THAT I KNOW OF HAS APPLIED FOR LICENSURE. OF NOTE, LICENSURE WAS GRANTED)

more from Neil. 3. again...THE PROBLEM IS NOT WITH WHAT YOU THINK OF THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION AT IUHS!!! the problem is that boards won't license you, regardless of how well prepared you think you may be. (AGAIN, HE DOESN'T KNOW THIS FOR SURE. IT'S SIMPLY HIS OPINION THAT SLANDERS A SCHOOL'S REPUTATION W/O VERIFIABLE AND COMPLETE EVIDENCE. OF NOTE, NEIL IS FINALLY COLLECTING DATA TO SUPPORT OR REJECT HIS CLAIMS.
it is simple to verify that a degree from IUHS is worthless in most states. (REALLY?)call the boards, and say "if i graduate from medical school that offers its basic science curriculum online can i get a license in your state". let us know what they say. i fail to see any hippocracy in that.(NEIL, THE HIPPOCRACY WAS THAT MANY NON-US MEDICAL SCHOOLS ARE SUB-STANDARD. MANY OF THE NEGATIVE POSTS ON THIS FORUM ABOUT IUHS ARE FROM STUDENTS WHO ATTEND THESE SAME SUB-STANDARD SCHOOLS.) that is reality. (HMM?? REALITY?? ACCORDING TO WHO?)
instead of my position of IUHS being worthless in all states, it will change to being worthless in most states. (OK, FINALLY SOMETHING THAT IS ALMOST VERGING ON TRUTH, BUT STILL NOT VERIFIABLE- SO DON'T SAY IT! ) the difference is academic. (OK. IT'S ACADEMIC NOW. NO NEIL! THAT'S THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE. "MOST STATES" IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN "ALL STATES" ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE A CURRENT OR POTENTIAL IUHS STUDENT. MOST STUDENTS AT IUHS KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR LICENSURE IN SOME STATES. HOWEVER, ONCE PEOPLE START WRITING ASSUMPTIONS THAT MISLEAD PEOPLE INTO THINKING THAT THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY FOR LICENSURE IN ANY STATE, THEN YOU HAVE SINGLE HANDEDLY TAKEN ANY HOPE AWAY FROM THEM. THAT IS NOT FAIR, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN IF THAT IS TRUE. HENCE, I CHALLENGED YOUR ASSUMPTIONS ON THIS THREAD. AND, YOU INDIRECTLY CONCEDED BECAUSE YOU BEGAN TO FINALLY START COLLECTING DATA ATTEMPTING TO JUSTIFY AND VERIFY YOUR ASSUMPTIONS. IF YOU HAD THE DATA BEFORE, YOU WOULDN'T BE COLLECTING IT NOW. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.)
I can assure you that in no way is IUHS becoming more reputable. (REALLY? HOW?) please, give me an example of that. any example of somebody who does not attend the school, and who is not paid by the school saying anything positive about it will do. (FIRST, YOU NEED TO JUSTIFY YOUR STATEMENT NEIL. ARE YOU 100% CERTAIN THAT NOBODY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD HAS GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT IUHS? IF NOT, PLEASE DON'T MAKE THAT STATEMENT. AGAIN IT IS NOT VERIFIABLE OR JUSTIFIABLE. MAYBE REPHRASING IT TO "SOME PEOPLE THAT I KNOW HAVE NOTHING POSITIVE TO SAY ABOUT IUHS." THAT IS A MORE HONEST AND RESPONSIBLE STATEMENT.)
show us those residents. where are they? (IN MANY DIFFERENT STATES. 100% TRUE FACT THAT I WILL NOT EXPOUND ON FOR OBVIOUS REASONS)
sorry you couldn't come up with anything to support your ridiculous claims. i hope you do better at convincing the state boards to accept your "credentials". i guess for all of your spouting about DATA, you only believe that others need to find it and use it. (YES, WHEN THEY BEGIN ATTACKING AND MAKING STATEMENTS THAT HAVE NOT YET BEEN VERIFIED. YOU FINALLY REALIZED THAT BECAUSE YOU BEGAN TAKING STEPS TO GATHER RELEVANT DATA TO SUPPORT OR DISPUTE YOUR CLAIMS. HOWEVER, IT WAS IRRESPONSIBLE OF YOU TO BROADCAST YOUR OPINIONS AND ASSUMPTIONS WITHOUT THE DATA YOU ARE PRESENTLY COMPILING, ESPECIALLY BECASUE IT WAS POTENTIALLY HARMFUL.
I am not convinced that IUHS grads of the online program are working in any states. and, i think that if they are, it is due to some transcript "underwording". (REALLY? HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? DID YOU EVALUATE THEIR TRANSCRIPTS? DO YOU PERSONALLY KNOW THE PEOPLE WHO EVALUATED THE TRANSCRIPTS? HAVE YOU SEEN THE ACTUAL TRANSCRIPTS THAT WERE SUBMITTED BY THE "ONLINE GRADS"? IF THE ANSWERS ARE NO, THEN DON'T ASSUME SOMETHING YOU CAN NOT VERIFY!) i think that is why there is that fear. and, frankly, if they are tricking the boards to be working there, and they do get outed and caught, they are in for a world of well deserved trouble. (AGAIN, NOTHING TO BACK THAT STATEMENT UP WITH) the point is that regardless of how you percieve the quality of the education, and regardless of how great the education may be, what matters is your licensability after the degree. as it is now, i think you will have trouble finding a state that will accept internet based medical education, regardless of how superior it may be.

lmoliver said. Is that a "No?" We already know it isn't Alabama. Can we rule out Alaska? Does it start with a C? (SEE MY POST FOR ALASKA LICENSING REQUIREMENTS)

These comments are why I started this thread. I hope that we can all agree that nobody knows for sure and it is irresponsible to make potentially harmful statements that are not 100% justifiable. However, it is inevitable that another IUHS grad who did pre-clinicals online will apply for licensure. When this happens, then we will know if a state will license IUHS grads if he/she gets licensed or not. But until then, please stop broadcasting "UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS". Finally, I hope, The End.

Thank you for all your comments, replies, and thoughtful inquiry. I hope we all learned something from this.

I will be starting a new thread entitiled, "Improving online education" Please join me. I look forward to seeing everybody there.

IUHSMS4

Carmen
01-07-2006, 09:23 AM
Hi Steve,

I agree the new thread is a good idea. You can argue all you want about he merits and deficiencies of an on-line education, but that is not really what this site is about.

Many of the people who write here are past students, teachers and administrative personnel of IUHS. I can only speak for myself, but I post on this site to warn students. IUHS makes many promises it can't keep and there are many people unhappy with the way IUHS teaches and operates. Some physicians have refused to teach for IUHS due to their fears of it being a scam.

Also, I would also like to make the point that some states including California, Florida and New York will not take any IUHS students due to the number of complaints about the school. If you don't believe me, ask your clerkship coordinator.

Once again, I would be happy to discuss these matters with you, but I cannot bring them up in a public forum. Please p.m. me for more information.

You will be graduating soon and I know all this negativity is hard for you. Please don't defend IUHS, we all have been there and know better.

Carmen

azskeptic
01-07-2006, 09:27 AM
look at this hodgepodge of experiences

http://www.iuhs-isa.org/TJ_/index.html (http://www.iuhs-isa.org/TJ_/index.html)

http://www.iuhs-isa.org/TJ_/gallery-1.htm (http://www.iuhs-isa.org/TJ_/gallery-1.htm)

At this website they claim that they are being allowed to deliver babies and assist in surgeries. You can read their stories and see pictures they are shooting of patients in Tijuana at:

http://www.angelfire.com/amiga2/iuhs/blog/ (http://www.angelfire.com/amiga2/iuhs/blog/)

neilc
01-07-2006, 09:34 AM
iuhsms4, you have to do it again, don't you????

you have made MANY, MANY unverified claimes. you are a hypocrite. it is truly disgusting to see how you try to manipulate. your claim that IUHS degree is valid is much more damaging to people than the many folks here warning that it may not.

if you have ANY evidence that an IUHS degree is more useful than single ply toliet paper, show it. i know you don't have this evidence. if you have any evidence that a state will accept your degree, show it. and, no, i don't mean something as weak as a lacking a specific exclusion.

you are such a hypocrite it makes me sick. i am truly shocked at you.

as it stands now, your school has a useless degree, IMHO. i have seen no evidence of it being accepted anywhere. somehow, you will try to turn this lack of evidence of acceptance into a positive (i can read it now-"hey, we haven't been denied here yet, so you can't say for sure that my degree will be worthless!").

i really am begining to doubt your story about being a prof (i cannot imagine you teaching anyone anything), a student with good grades (i just don't see a 4.0 coming from you after all this) and a match applicant (seems pretty surprising that you didn't even understand basic match rules).

either way, with your convoluted logic, your disregard for reality, your questionable ethics and your worthless degree, i think you will be a fine candidate for admin over at st chris. so, all may not be lost for you.

Carmen
01-07-2006, 11:11 AM
IUHS MS4 is not a professor at IUHS. I know who he is and he is a clerkship student.

He also needs to know that many students never attend the island of St. Kitts even though IUHS states this is a requirement. This requirement only came into practice recently and was actually the work of the past Regtistrar.

I don't know who is providing you with your information Steve, but it is not what is really what is happening at IUHS. Most students at IUHS are told to set up their on rotations for clinicals and few ever get into a green book hospital. THis is an immediate deficiency. I cannot consider a hospital in Mexico to be an acceptable place to rotate especially if you want to enter the North American hospitals.

I'm not trying to "taint" IUHS. They have already done that for themselves. When will you graduate? Remember, getting into a residency program in the U.S. does not guarantee licensure. I have seen the IUHS transcripts and they are a total lie!

Carmen

sheikh1
01-07-2006, 11:32 AM
Is St. Kitts the location of this school, or the internet.

Carmen
01-07-2006, 11:38 AM
Is St. Kitts the location of this school, or the internet.

The actual campus is located in St. Kitts. It's basically an old home converted into offices, etc. There is no labs, microscopes, etc. there. It is really depressing to see the actual school. Only about 2-3 students go to the campus and there is supposed to be a 4-week rotation done there. Unfortunately this never happens because most IUHS students have other jobs they work at.

St. Kitts and Nevis provide a charter for IUHS and charges a large fee. The on-line students are in the U.S., Canada, India, Dubai and England. The actual on-line program is run from Winnipeg, Canada and the computer people are somewhere in the U.S.

I hope this answers your question.

Carmen

mcgrady
01-07-2006, 11:46 AM
please stop calling people hypocrite... it sounds shows how thin your mind is!!! just debate please, don't offend others cause they don't agree with u neil.

sheikh1
01-07-2006, 11:56 AM
please stop calling people hypocrite... it sounds shows how thin your mind is!!! just debate please, don't offend others cause they don't agree with u neil.
41 post already five warnings, what happened to you!!

mcgrady
01-07-2006, 12:19 PM
hahahahaha, u think u r funny!!!?????

hahahahaha,

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 12:41 PM
I am confident that anyone who reads my last post will agree that sufficient data is simply not there to support the claims of Neil, Carmen, and the rest of the people on this forum who are attempting to spread false statements regarding IUHS and it's program. However, I am finished responding to their unverifiable claims. Please visit my new thread, improving online education. I hope that others, who are not biased against IUHS because of bad experiences, will join this thread and collectively come up with ideas and ways to improve online education, specifically at IUHS. This is an IUHS forum after all. Unfortunately, I suspect it was set up or evolved into a place for ex-students, faculty, and administrators to vent their disappointments with IUHS. Well, maybe you ought to finally leave all of that in the past, and try to move forward. I have seen IUHS progress from a new school who made it's share of mistakes, to a school who is doing many good things for it's students and the community. Does it need improvement? Of course! That's why we have these types of forums. However, harping on the past, making statements that are unverifiable, and personally attacking people because you didn't do ALL your homweork (Neil, granted you did some- but, not enough as I pointed out and you have obviously realized as you are finally gathering neccesary data which you will find to not support your claims) are not productive and only serve to hurt and hinder success as opposed to encourage progress. I hope to see some productive and respoonsible posts on my new thread. Good luck in your future academic and professional endeavors.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 01:01 PM
Carmen,

Thank you for your concerns. Of note, IUHS has set up all of my rotations at green book hospitals. I have never had to set up a rotation. Also, all of my rotations up to graduation have been scheduled. They have gained more rotation sites all over the US. I suggest, if you are interested, that you re-evaluate IUHS based on it's current status, not on the past. When I first started at IUHS (3 years ago), the number of rotation sites offered were very limited. However, they did set up the rotations for students in a limited number of training facilities, some which were green book. But, time has passed, Carmen, and IUHS has grown and evolved into a school that now has many rotation sites all over the US. Many of the skeptics on this forum (Neil, etc...) are basing most of what they say on information gathered or experienced 2,3, or even >3 years ago. It is unlikely that you or Neil know much about the current happenings at IUHS because you are not directly involved with the school anymore. Moreover, it is clear you don't know much about current happenings based on the statements you continue to make. However, I am. And, I am telling you, as a student, that these changes have occurred. Now, you can believe me or not believe me. However, I am one verifiable source as I am a current student. Though, I will not give specifics to protect the privacy of my colleagues.

I think it is imporatnt for aspiring medical students to be privy to as much information about a school they may consider. I encourage you, if you are an aspiring med student, to check out IUHS's medical program. I am confident that you will be pleasantly surprised. Try to ignore all of the negative garbage you hear in forums like these. These people are pissed off ex-students, faculty members, and administrators. Call the school. You will see that the majority of information posted on this forum is false and dated.

It is interesting that nobody has posted their backgrounds. Good luck.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 01:13 PM
Sorry, some of you did post your background. Neil, congratulations on your pre-match. Though, I doubt that a student from Charles University in Prague would ever pre-match in a US residency. However, enlighten me. What is the name of the program and state you pre-matched at? (ie. University of Ia. Ob/Gyn) Also, where did you have interviews at? If you can't answer these questions, then your degree is probably worth the piece of toilet paper it is printed on. I have begun gathering data regarding Charles University questionable practices. I will let you know what I find. Until then, please let us know the answers to the above questions.

neilc
01-07-2006, 03:39 PM
here is a partial list of my interviews/invites:
5 CA programs
1 NM program
2 MI programs
1 NY program
1 NJ program

i am going to leave out the several in the mid atlantic region that i attended, as i will be going to this area for my residency. after the match results come out, i will be happy to post it. in the meantime i do not want to expose my future program to any unsavory emails or solicitations for further pre match.

additionally, classmates of mine have pre-matched in the south and mid atlantic states in IM. again, when everything is settled after the match, and they begin residency, i will have no problem posting the link to the program pages that they are working in.

but, unlike your crappy school that prints out worthless degrees, my school is not dependent on my success to demonstrate it's worth. there are already plenty of grads across the US, in facutly positions, private practice and research. so, i was pretty smart, if i do say so myself, by picking a school based on established success. write that down, so when you have to go back to a real med school, you make a better choice.

please do let us know what your "research" into the Charles uni "questionable practices" turns up. we are all waiting with bated breath.

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 04:05 PM
" I cannot consider a hospital in Mexico to be an acceptable place to rotate especially if you want to enter the North American hospitals."

I am going to try to be as nice as I can with you after reading this comment. It reflects your level of ignorance towards Mexican medicine in general. I know of many clinicians that will come to the US and chew up and spit out many top notch US medical grads. There are bad ones as well.

I met a girl from Mexico, recently finishing her social services who smashed USMLE 1, AND BOTH II, CS and CK and landed a residency spot in Texas in a greast program.

If you can substantiate your obvious biased and ignorant comment go ahead and do it. In the mean time you just have made me loose any kind of respect I had for you.

Max

Carmen
01-07-2006, 04:16 PM
I am not knocking Mexico, but I do know that it is difficult in the U.S. to obtain residencies without green book hospital experience. Mexico is definitely not green book.

From my correspondence with state licensing boards, Mexican rotations are not regulated by the U.S., hence they are not accepted. I think the IUHS students are getting some great experience there, but they are doing many of not all their rotations in Mexico. This will not "fly" with the boards.

When I questioned the LMCC in Canada, they told me that no student either Canadian or American would be accepted with these clinicals. If they were accepted into Canada, they would have to re-do the rotations completed in Mexico.

My contempt with the situation is that IUHS is "pushing" students to Mexico because it is one of the few hospitals who will accept them.

Hope I have explained myself well.

Carmen

P.S. You know my experience and I have worked with licensing boards in both countries.

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 04:25 PM
I do not care, if you have worked with licensing bords here or there, that is not the point. Point in case is I bet you, that you and maybe most licensing boards have have never set foot on any Mexican program to judge it, so as I said before unless you can substantiate yor uninformed and ignorant opinion refrain from posting such garbage.

Explain me how is it that Mexican students from many if not most Mexican medical school after graduating from their schools can apply for USMLE's and provided they pass them are elegible to enter residency training in the US without going through remediate work because their coursework was done at"non green book" hospitals. Prove me wrong.

You know who doest this in the US? Dental schools. Maybe you did not knew that, or maybe you did from your vast and shallow ocean of knowledge.









I am not knocking Mexico, but I do know that it is difficult in the U.S. to obtain residencies without green book hospital experience. Mexico is definitely not green book.

From my correspondence with state licensing boards, Mexican rotations are not regulated by the U.S., hence they are not accepted. I think the IUHS students are getting some great experience there, but they are doing many of not all their rotations in Mexico. This will not "fly" with the boards.

When I questioned the LMCC in Canada, they told me that no student either Canadian or American would be accepted with these clinicals. If they were accepted into Canada, they would have to re-do the rotations completed in Mexico.

My contempt with the situation is that IUHS is "pushing" students to Mexico because it is one of the few hospitals who will accept them.

Hope I have explained myself well.

Carmen

P.S. You know my experience and I have worked with licensing boards in both countries.

Carmen
01-07-2006, 04:30 PM
I can only repeat what information I obtained when contacting licensing boards. I heard the same answer every time. Many boards in the U.S. will not accept residents with a Canadian education without upgrading as well! This is true in the reverse.

The IUHS students enjoy going to Mexico because they are allowed "hands on" which they can't do in many U.S. hospitals. This certainly must teach them more, but it is the U.S. that is stopping them, not me.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 04:31 PM
Neil, you never said where you pre-matched. Also,
5 CA programs
1 NM program
2 MI programs
1 NY program
1 NJ program

is just vague. Be specific. Again,
1. List the name of the program (University of California- Berkely)
2. List the name of the specialty (Ob/Gyn)

What about that did you not understand?? Also, if you did pre-match, list the same information for that program. If you can't, then we all must assume that you are lying. Sound familiar neil? Put up or shut up.

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 04:33 PM
Excellent source of proving your case. "I can only repeat what I hear..." You said it yourself. And hands on experience is much worse than what we do here, how pathetic.

I am done with this discussion.



I can only repeat what information I obtained when contacting licensing boards. I heard the same answer every time. Many boards in the U.S. will not accept residents with a Canadian education without upgrading as well! This is true in the reverse.
The IUHS students enjoy going to Mexico because they are allowed "hands on" which they can't do in many U.S. hospitals. This certainly must teach them more, but it is the U.S. that is stopping them, not me.

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 04:38 PM
Genossa,

Now you are getting a taste of the unverifiable comments that have been directed toward IUHS. I applaud your response to Carmen. Many students are gaining residency positions in states who did not do some or all of their core rotations at green book US hospitals. Neil, I am not going to start naming people and states- please don't ask! LOL Anyway Genossa, I think you will be ok in some states for residency placement and eventual licensure. I can't say 100%, like others claim they can, but atleast in my state, "green book" cores are not required. I suspect others are the same. However, I don't know for sure. Check Ark, Alaska, and Alabama in my previous post. Any mention of green book requirements? I didn't look.

Carmen
01-07-2006, 04:43 PM
Excellent source of proving your case. "I can only repeat what I hear..." You said it yourself. I am done with this discussion.

I don't think the people in any of the licensing board offices have reason to lie to me. I am repeating what these individuals have told me.

I guess the "acid test" will be how well these students from IUHS do.

The situation in Canada is that any foreign grad from anywhere must re-do some of their education to fit with Canadian standards. This would include an education on doctoring aboriginal people, minority groups, etc. that are distinct to Canada. This is a definite fact.

I agree that nobody goes down to see the Mexican sites and may change their minds when they do, but so far it appears that many are still "biased".

Cheers!

Carmen

maximillian genossa
01-07-2006, 04:50 PM
do not have any reasons to lie to you, but tons of reasons for being ignorant and biased to a point of creating a double standard for those who rotate there and those who not juts rotate there but do their entire education there. Can't you see this? There is the double standard.

If you want to continue discussing this PM me, of course if you can substantiate this bias, oterwise don't bother. I already know your mantra..."this is what some licensing boards tell me, bla bla bla" boring.

I am not the kind of person that just because someone else is jumping off a cliff I will follow.




I don't think the people in any of the licensing board offices have reason to lie to me. I am repeating what these individuals have told me.

I guess the "acid test" will be how well these students from IUHS do.

The situation in Canada is that any foreign grad from anywhere must re-do some of their education to fit with Canadian standards. This would include an education on doctoring aboriginal people, minority groups, etc. that are distinct to Canada. This is a definite fact.

I agree that nobody goes down to see the Mexican sites and may change their minds when they do, but so far it appears that many are still "biased".

Cheers!

Carmen

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 04:59 PM
Still waiting for Neil's reply to his pre-match site/specialty, and his interview sites/specialties. I don't think we will see them. Just a thought. maybe I'll be wrong. We'll see. Remember, Neil. Don't post just states and numbers again. Post verifiable programs/locations and the specific specialty. Hmm...........waiting

iuhsms4
01-07-2006, 05:52 PM
it is interesting that neil replied in a different thread just minutes ago, but still no reply here.......waiting neil................

neilc
01-07-2006, 06:24 PM
it is interesting that neil replied in a different thread just minutes ago, but still no reply here.......waiting neil................
hahaha! hey my man, i clearly posted what you asked. i am not giving names until after the match, but i will tell you then.

as for knowing the names of where i interviewed, how on earth is that going to help you? going to call and verify them? hahahhaha.

you have yet to post ANY evidence of ANYTHING. i have linked grads all over the place. i have posted states of where i applied/interviewed. i have posted a LOT more. i have nothing more that needs sharing with you.

this is a thread about the worthlessness of your crappy degree. me proving how much better i am than you will do nothing to make your school look worse. IUHS does that on it's own, helped by you.

tell you what i will do...when you answer me what states you are doing rotations in (i don't need the hospital), where your glorius resident is from IUHS, and where the grad is licensed, then i will consider giving you more information about me. i know you won't be willing to have any parity, but that is how shady characters work.

stephew
01-07-2006, 08:19 PM
Sorry, some of you did post your background. Neil, congratulations on your pre-match. Though, I doubt that a student from Charles University in Prague would ever pre-match in a US residency. However, enlighten me. What is the name of the program and state you pre-matched at? (ie. University of Ia. Ob/Gyn) Also, where did you have interviews at? If you can't answer these questions, then your degree is probably worth the piece of toilet paper it is printed on. I have begun gathering data regarding Charles University questionable practices. I will let you know what I find. Until then, please let us know the answers to the above questions.insulting/flamming others is not permitted. Further, not responding to a taunt is hardly evidence of defeat. Please stay within tos.

iuhsms4
01-08-2006, 03:07 AM
steph, you may want to scroll back and review statements posted by neilc on this thread. you will see that many have been insulting. i hope you will be consistent and fair. i used his own words in my last post to make a point (comparing my degree to "toilet paper"). i was simply pointing out his hippocracy. he has no justification to slander a school's reputation.

iuhsms4
01-08-2006, 03:32 AM
in light of neilc's statements, it's a bit ironic that docs have to take a "hippcratic oath".

iuhsms4
01-08-2006, 03:51 AM
please visit my online education thread.

iuhsms4
01-08-2006, 03:52 AM
hahaha! hey my man, i clearly posted what you asked. i am not giving names until after the match, but i will tell you then.

as for knowing the names of where i interviewed, how on earth is that going to help you? going to call and verify them? hahahhaha.

you have yet to post ANY evidence of ANYTHING. i have linked grads all over the place. i have posted states of where i applied/interviewed. i have posted a LOT more. i have nothing more that needs sharing with you.

this is a thread about the worthlessness of your crappy degree. me proving how much better i am than you will do nothing to make your school look worse. IUHS does that on it's own, helped by you.

tell you what i will do...when you answer me what states you are doing rotations in (i don't need the hospital), where your glorius resident is from IUHS, and where the grad is licensed, then i will consider giving you more information about me. i know you won't be willing to have any parity, but that is how shady characters work.

neilc, first off, you started this line of questioning. how is knowing which states my schools residents are in going to help YOU? please don't say that you are trying to help potential students or any other line of complete garbage. WHAT IS YOUR REAL INTENTION, NEIL? don't hide behind a bunch of irrelevant rhetoric like you have in the past. cut to the chase neil! tell us your real intentions regarding knowing which states my school's residents are practicing in, etc... do it in ONE sentence. no **! just the explicit truth.

don't expect people to do what you wouldn't do yourself. let me read your mind for a second- "i don't want to tell him anything about where i am interviewing or where i pre-matched because he might try to hurt my chances of keeping my pre-match and/or interviews by calling the programs i listed." is that what was going on in your head, neil? please, tell us. if not, then tell us why you won't disclose the infromation i requested.

your hippocracy is shameful. and, i have no longer have any respect for you. i suspect you will have several comments as you always do, but none will address your hippocratic statements. in fact, they will most likely, again, expose your hippocracy. you really need to learn how to listen, empathsize, and have an open-mind, especially if you plan on practicing medicine. you haven't thus far, neil. you are close-minded, opinionated, and a hippocrate. i hope you will change prior to providing direct patient care. you seem like a passionate individual who could potentailly be a good doctor. the key word there was "potentially". you need alot of work. i wish you luck.

iuhsms4
01-08-2006, 03:54 AM
hahaha! hey my man, i clearly posted what you asked. i am not giving names until after the match, but i will tell you then.

as for knowing the names of where i interviewed, how on earth is that going to help you? going to call and verify them? hahahhaha.

you have yet to post ANY evidence of ANYTHING. i have linked grads all over the place. i have posted states of where i applied/interviewed. i have posted a LOT more. i have nothing more that needs sharing with you.

this is a thread about the worthlessness of your crappy degree. me proving how much better i am than you will do nothing to make your school look worse. IUHS does that on it's own, helped by you.

tell you what i will do...when you answer me what states you are doing rotations in (i don't need the hospital), where your glorius resident is from IUHS, and where the grad is licensed, then i will consider giving you more information about me. i know you won't be willing to have any parity, but that is how shady characters work.

neil, but you said you pre-matched! you don't have to wait for the match to know what program you "pre-matched" in. now, you are saying that you have to wait for the match before you disclose anything. get your story straight, dude! you are hillaroius! you expect me to give specifics, however you will not do what you asked me to do in several previous posts. again, another example of your hippocracy. why were you so adament to try and get me to do something that YOU aren't even willing to do? i hope that anybody that has been following this thread can now see that neilc is a hippocrate (that is not a personal attack, it's a true decription based on his previous posts).

i asked neilc these questions for the purpose of exposing his hippocracy in respect to his posts on this thread.

if you have nothing to hide (neil's words to me in many previous posts), then disclose the program names, states, and specialties. he has responded exactly like i thought he would. he told us NOTHING that is verifiable. practice what you preach, neilc!

neilc
01-08-2006, 08:59 AM
neilc, first off, you started this line of questioning. how is knowing which states my schools residents are in going to help YOU? please don't say that you are trying to help potential students or any other line of complete garbage. WHAT IS YOUR REAL INTENTION, NEIL? don't hide behind a bunch of irrelevant rhetoric like you have in the past. cut to the chase neil! tell us your real intentions regarding knowing which states my school's residents are practicing in, etc... do it in ONE sentence. no **! just the explicit truth.

don't expect people to do what you wouldn't do yourself. let me read your mind for a second- "i don't want to tell him anything about where i am interviewing or where i pre-matched because he might try to hurt my chances of keeping my pre-match and/or interviews by calling the programs i listed." is that what was going on in your head, neil? please, tell us. if not, then tell us why you won't disclose the infromation i requested. my intent is to VERIFY THAT YOU CAN GET A LICENSE WITH A DEGREE FROM IUHS!!!!! are you really that dense? have you not understood this yet? show us some proof! you have not even posted a single state yet that you say will consider. so, fine, if you have a resident in a state and you are worried, simply post the state. no problem. leave his name out of it. leave your name out of it. i don't care! just give me a state that i can call that will say you can get a license. want the same for my school?? call any one. they all work for me. describe the curriculum and ask. give me just one, and i will do the same. lets see what happens.

i won't disclose the information for reasons i already stated. i do not want my progam subject to recieving either hate email from you or emails from a bunch of people seeking pre match. that is why i won't disclose til after the match.


your hippocracy is shameful. and, i have no longer have any respect for you. i suspect you will have several comments as you always do, but none will address your hippocratic statements. in fact, they will most likely, again, expose your hippocracy. you really need to learn how to listen, empathsize, and have an open-mind, especially if you plan on practicing medicine. you haven't thus far, neil. you are close-minded, opinionated, and a hippocrate. i hope you will change prior to providing direct patient care. you seem like a passionate individual who could potentailly be a good doctor. the key word there was "potentially". you need alot of work. i wish you luck.
you are most amusing. i have given data where asked. i have answered all questions directly. i have only left out very specific details that are not important, and that would expose me to direct retaliation from internet psychos. (becoming an internet psycho does appear to have IUHS attendance as a risk factor. perhaps it is all that time online. maybe i should do a study)

i also find it very amusing that you would be so arrogant as to assume that you not only know what it takes to be a good doctor, but you are able to predict that based on internet forum interactions. i AM and will continue to be a fine doctor. moreover, i will be eligible to obtain a license in any state after i complete my postgraduate education. your biggest problem is that you will likely NOT be able to work as a physician, despite how qualified you may be. too bad.

neilc
01-08-2006, 09:12 AM
neil, but you said you pre-matched! you don't have to wait for the match to know what program you "pre-matched" in. now, you are saying that you have to wait for the match before you disclose anything. get your story straight, dude! you are hillaroius! you expect me to give specifics, however you will not do what you asked me to do in several previous posts. again, another example of your hippocracy. why were you so adament to try and get me to do something that YOU aren't even willing to do? i hope that anybody that has been following this thread can now see that neilc is a hippocrate (that is not a personal attack, it's a true decription based on his previous posts).

i asked neilc these questions for the purpose of exposing his hippocracy in respect to his posts on this thread.

if you have nothing to hide (neil's words to me in many previous posts), then disclose the program names, states, and specialties. he has responded exactly like i thought he would. he told us NOTHING that is verifiable. practice what you preach, neilc!

uhh, i do have something to hide...i feel terrible. i have to admit it.


what i am hiding is the identity of my program from two potential sources of trouble:
1) internet psychos with a vandetta (i think we have an idea who that may be), and
2) other applicants that may call my program and ask for a pre match. they are not offering another this year, and i don't want to expose them to a potential pain in the ***.

if you had bothered to read, you will see that i already explained this in a previous post. in fact, it was the post where i RESPONDED DIRECTLY TO YOUR INQUIRIES WITH ACTUAL ANSWERS. funny, you have yet to do that.

the claims of hypocrisy are hilarious as well. i am NOT yet employed, i am not yet a resident, so i have no license. there is nothing to gain from knowing this information about me, as it is ONLY personal. who cares where i interviewed? who cares where i pre-matched? how does that affect anything? when i have a license, i will post it. when i am working, i will tell you where. fine, that shows that my school is legit, and if somehow the fact escapes you that there are already people in my school working in the very state i will be working in, i am happy to give more proof. but, not while it is useless, peripheral information that has the potential to be used against me, and won't help a soul.

i would be a hypocrite if i refused to answer at all. that is what you do. make a claim, then don't back it up. i have given you answers to every question you have asked (i answered my own 5 at the begining, i answered your stats question, i answered your interview questions, your pre match questions, i showed you where are grads, residents and faculty are teaching, i posted a list of our school's international partners, etc...). however, you have yet to answer ONE question. give us a state name where an IUHS grad is. there is no possible way that can hurt anybody. i will just call and verify that online education is valid in that state, and that they have an IUHS grad licensed. simple, right?

now, please look up hypocrite. then look at your posts. then look in the mirror. but, all is not lost. you can change! do it! grow as a human! or, better yet, slink of into the sewere, and hide. that way maybe you can save some of your pride. this has got to be humiliating for you.

tell you what. once you start answering for a change, i will respond. give us one state name where an IUHS grad has a medical license. not a name or a program, just a state.

neilc
01-08-2006, 09:17 AM
steph, you may want to scroll back and review statements posted by neilc on this thread. you will see that many have been insulting. i hope you will be consistent and fair. i used his own words in my last post to make a point (comparing my degree to "toilet paper"). i was simply pointing out his hippocracy. he has no justification to slander a school's reputation.
1. your school has NO REPUTATION TO SLANDER!!! IUHS is hardly a respected institution. it is some internet school of no value, with no verifiable licensed grads. prove me wrong! i would love it. i offer as proof the fact that i cannot find a single working grad. do a google search, search with the med boards. they are not out htere. that is pretty much the definition of a worthless degree

2. i think toilet paper should be insulted by the comparison to your degree. at least toilet paper has demonstrable worth, is used by millions of americans in ever state and i would say toilet paper does a lot more for public health than any IUHS grad. you know, you are right. i did insult somebody, and i should apologize! i am sorry, toilet paper. i love you! i won't insult you again.

Carmen
01-08-2006, 01:36 PM
I think this discussion is becoming verbally abusive.

Steve and Neil, this discussion is just becoming a personal attack!

As well, I feel that I have been balked at when I have spent months doing research in areas of licensing. When I enter a discussion, I only state what I feel to be facts and while members may or may not agree with me, there is no reason for personal attacks.

If all of you cannot discuss an issue like adults, perhaps you should have discussions on other sites.

Carmen

iuhsms4
01-08-2006, 04:48 PM
it is obvious that neilc is a hippocrate. he expects people to do what he isn't willing to. his intentions are also obvious. he's most likely just another disgruntled ex-student. notice he hasn't posted on my improving online education thread. why? because he really has no interest in helping other people. his interest is to try expose his delusions about a school which are simply not true. get a life, Neilc. worry about your own school and ways to improve it. you are a second-rate medical student who couldn't get accepted into a us school thinking you are on some high horse because you attend a school who admits anybody with a pulse and checkbook. you are a joke. you should had studied harder as an undergrad. you should had done better on the mcat, if you took it. but, you didn't neil! so, you looked for an alternative. you found a short-cut to getting a medical degree. you are no different than any other foreign med student from the US. however, you feel that you can be condescending to certain schools. who gave you that authority? who gave you the authority to start questioning other schools? dude, first get accepted into a US school by doing what it takes and not being lazy! then, study your tail off during medical school. then, you might have a basis to question others. the irony is that i've never seen any US medical students on this forum bashing and spreading untruths about IUHS! just simple-minded ***** like you neil.

i hope you never practice medicine neilc, atleast in your current mindset. your way of thinking most likely is the reason you couldn't get into a US medical school. you will always be just another graduate from a european school who couldn't get into a US school. that's it, neilc. nothing more.

sheikh1
01-08-2006, 05:01 PM
Soon they will have registration warning, by the state department.

azskeptic
01-08-2006, 05:21 PM
as a non-medical student I can tell you the concept of an IUHS scares me. your school is turning loose a bunch of students onto society that potentially are endangering patients. Why do I say that? Read about your weekend/fully working in other profession warriors doing clinicals at Red Cross-Tijuana, taking pictures and posting them on a website without signed releases from the patients.

You lack professors who know you personally to know if you should be in med school or not. You may be doing the online science study but how does the professor know if you have a personality disorder or shouldn't be in a medical school. Can they watch you interact with other students and see if you have people skills?

But your school does other things that bother me. They 'rent' their charter to other schools, such as been seen in England and the middle east and India. Who knows what they are doing?

Your behavior here shows some signs of problems also but who knows? your professors don't know you apparently.







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