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OLDPRO
12-22-2005, 02:01 PM
The GMC has posted today that the degrees will not be accepted.

I'm Sorry to the current students of St. Chris.


12/22/05



St. Christopher's College of Medicine, Luton



The GMC is aware that this College has claimed affiliations with:
St Christopher ‘s College of Medicine in Senegal
Degrees issued after a course of study at St Christopher's College of Medicine Luton are not acceptable for the purposes of registration with the GMC



A note to everyone, Please do not start new threads on this here and do not repost this everywhere here. Thank you.


Okay the GMC came back on 12/23/05 with this!




(* Correct as at 3 November 2005)
[/URL]European College of Medicine, London
We are currently investigating the European College of Medicine's previously listed affiliations to universities in Russia. Until our investigations are complete we have suspended our acceptance of medical degrees awarded by this institution and/or any of it's affiliations. Please contact us for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

Please note that GMC does not accept degrees awarded by the College's previous affiliation with the St Luke's School of Medicine in Liberia. The WHO has also confirmed that this school will be removed from their listing.

(http://www.euromedicine.org/)Grace University School of Medicine, London
This institution was previously affiliated to Grace University School of Medicine in Belize and the College of Medicine and Health Sciences in Saint Lucia. It is awaiting accreditation from a new host country. We currently do not accept degrees awarded by this institution as it is unclear who is awarding them.

London College of Medicine, London
(http://www.londonmedicalschool.org/)London School of Medicine, London
London Medical School, London
The parent institution appears to have changed its name several times. It was previously affiliated to the International University of Health Sciences in St. Kitts and Nevis. We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the College of Medicine and Health Sciences in St Lucia. Please contact us for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

(http://www.londonmedicalschool.org/)School of Health and Neural Sciences, Nottingham
We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the College of Medicine and Health Sciences in St Lucia. Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

Medical College London, Montserrat
This institution currently awards degrees from the University of Science, Arts and Technology, Montserrat, British West Indies which is not WHO listed. We do not accept its degrees for the purpose of registration.

(http://www.mcl-edu.co.uk/index2.html)American International School of Medicine, UK satellite campus
We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the American International School of Medicine in Guyana. Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

[URL="http://www.stchris.edu/"]St. Christopher's College of Medicine, Luton
We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the St Christopher ‘s College of Medicine in Senegal. Until our investigations are complete we have suspended our acceptance of medical degrees awarded by this institution and/or any of it's affiliations. Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

empathy
12-22-2005, 02:11 PM
You owe them a heck of a lot more than an apology. Shame on you for posting things that weren't true and giving them false hope.


The GMC has posted today that the degrees will not be accepted.

I'm Sorry to the current students of St. Chris.




A note to everyone, Please do not start new threads on this here and do not repost this everywhere here. Thank you.

OLDPRO
12-22-2005, 02:22 PM
You owe them a heck of a lot more than an apology. Shame on you for posting things******* giving them false hope.

Look I did not want to post on this I'm the mod here, I posted about what others said here and commented on the school, I'm a med student who spent 55,000 on going to this school and you, need to be careful, I Posted the GMC change right away I'm on the outside now.
I never have lied and told what I was told. For the last time moderators do not work for a school. I posted the change myself.

I have nothing to be sorry about I have always posted what I thought was the truth.

You have attacked me and it has been reported.

MDXRS22
12-22-2005, 03:16 PM
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
wowWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Scary stufffffff:(
I feel sorry for those students....
It could have been me, too, and maybe other folks that I know around here.
IT's a sad situation!!!!!

Please don't put the whole blame on Whuds...we all tend to defend our particular schools, and we all need to step back a bit and think about the future of our own...maybe our very surprises are awaiting us along the way....
A moment of silence for those who will have to repay those heavy sets of loans:(

neilc
12-22-2005, 03:17 PM
dude, that is seriously bad news for the school. i wonder how far behind the state med boards and ECFMG will be....yikes!

empathy
12-22-2005, 03:33 PM
I'm sure you don't have surprises waiting. There are a lot of good foreign medical schools out there. Please don't let this discourage you. It isn't about all foreign medical schools just this one. The writing was on the wall on this one from the very beginning. People just didn't trust the authorities...Oregon, etc.

I'm not putting the blame on Whuds. I was referring to the GMC thread that was locked. He kept saying that St. Chris was sueing the BBC, etc. He should have referred students to the GMC instead of spreading rumors.


Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
wowWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Scary stufffffff:(
I feel sorry for those students....
It could have been me, too, and maybe other folks that I know around here.
IT's a sad situation!!!!!

Please don't put the whole blame on Whuds...we all tend to defend our particular schools, and we all need to step back a bit and think about the future of our own...maybe our very surprises are awaiting us along the way....
A moment of silence for those who will have to repay those heavy sets of loans:(

microphage
12-22-2005, 03:39 PM
WOW... not exactly news anyone wants to hear.

MDXRS22
12-22-2005, 03:41 PM
I understand what you mean!


That's more than fear when I am actually fighting at the last minute to secure loans for school. Believe me, it's more than a blow to knock the hell out of every student on this planet. I was accepted there as well, and I almost jumped out of the window when I saw my letters in the mail box. Imagine all those who got accepetd there and are on their way to school, and those who are at the end of basic sciences going into clinicals.
It's just too raw to swallow. It's painful!

medques
12-22-2005, 03:51 PM
Hi i am a st. chris student.. can you please tell me the GMC web site that says the degrees are no longer accepted

maximillian genossa
12-22-2005, 03:52 PM
dude, that is seriously bad news for the school. i wonder how far behind the state med boards and ECFMG will be....yikes!

How the United States Medical Boards and ECFMG will react to this.

Definitely not good news, and I hope St. Chris realizes this and changes the way they promote themselves. Example, you open Vamulemd and the add St. Chris pays for reads...St. Christopher College, Luton, Englad. When now, it is undisputed that their students cannot sit for the PLAB.

Good luck to all.

Res ipsa loquitur

Batman007
12-22-2005, 03:53 PM
First of all, whuds and miklos are TWO of the top FIVE people I actually trust on this site.

Not to say that I don't trust ANYBODY else's opinions, it's just that I know to be more careful when reading other peoples' posts.

Secondly, the students of St. Chris could've been ANYONE (myself included). I'm sorry. My heart goes out to you all.

If we could learn ONE THING - let it be the importance of 'sticking together' in this time of uncertainty and unrest when it comes to choosing a legit medical school, beyond our borders...

...we are in this together.

When ONE student fails, we ALL do. It's not a CHOICE to be part of this community of 'international students'. In fact - it's a requirement.

OLDPRO
12-22-2005, 03:56 PM
http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp

GMC web site

jpryor
12-22-2005, 03:59 PM
Maybe I'm just ornery enough to ask more questions. I read the new posting on the GMC web site and the change in verbiage for SC isn't specific. GMC has posted the same verbiage on all of the schools they were "investigating". Does this mean that all investigations were completed on the same day or is this an administrative action politically influenced?

I wouldn't go to SC now at all, but I don't think this chapter is finished, either.

Batman007
12-22-2005, 04:08 PM
Maybe I'm just ornery enough to ask more questions. I read the new posting on the GMC web site and the change in verbiage for SC isn't specific. GMC has posted the same verbiage on all of the schools they were "investigating". Does this mean that all investigations were completed on the same day or is this an administrative action politically influenced?

I wouldn't go to SC now at all, but I don't think this chapter is finished, either.

you have 1 alert, what does that mean?

OLDPRO
12-22-2005, 04:09 PM
you have 1 alert, what does that mean?

An alert is not serious and it drops off after 180 days, usualy for a post that contained some TOS violation. A warning is worse.

maximillian genossa
12-22-2005, 04:28 PM
Maybe I'm just ornery enough to ask more questions. I read the new posting on the GMC web site and the change in verbiage for SC isn't specific. GMC has posted the same verbiage on all of the schools they were "investigating". Does this mean that all investigations were completed on the same day or is this an administrative action politically influenced?

I wouldn't go to SC now at all, but I don't think this chapter is finished, either.

"St Christopher ‘s College of Medicine in Senegal

Degrees issued after a course of study at St Christopher's College of Medicine Luton are not acceptable for the purposes of registration with the GMC"

diogenes
12-22-2005, 04:36 PM
Maybe I'm just ornery enough to ask more questions. I read the new posting on the GMC web site and the change in verbiage for SC isn't specific. GMC has posted the same verbiage on all of the schools they were "investigating". Does this mean that all investigations were completed on the same day or is this an administrative action politically influenced?
I wouldn't go to SC now at all, but I don't think this chapter is finished, either. I agree (glad we can agree on something:)). The wording and timing are curious.
Does this mean that:
Senegal has pulled the plug on their WHO listing and the GMC are merely updating things?
WHO is intact (more or less, give or take a few missing years), but the GMC has decided to be more rigorous than it has been in the past about squatter schools?

maximillian genossa
12-22-2005, 04:42 PM
I agree (glad we can agree on something:)). The wording and timing are curious.
Does this mean that:
Senegal has pulled the plug on their WHO listing and the GMC are merely updating things?
WHO is intact (more or less, give or take a few missing years), but the GMC has decided to be more rigorous than it has been in the past about squatter schools?

WHO is intact (more or less, give or take a few missing years), but the GMC has decided to be more rigorous than it has been in the past about squatter schools?
That is pretty much what it means. The GMC decision has nothing to do with their WHO listing.

CorporateRaider
12-22-2005, 04:49 PM
"St Christopher ‘s College of Medicine in Senegal

Degrees issued after a course of study at St Christopher's College of Medicine Luton are not acceptable for the purposes of registration with the GMC"

The above language is clear as mud, be that as it may, on the surface it does not appear to be all that bad, students can transfer to Senegal and complete their studies there.

So while one door closed, the main door (Home Campus) is open.

CorporateRaider
12-22-2005, 04:52 PM
I agree (glad we can agree on something:)). The wording and timing are curious.
Does this mean that:

Senegal has pulled the plug on their WHO listing and the GMC are merely updating things?
WHO is intact (more or less, give or take a few missing years), but the GMC has decided to be more rigorous than it has been in the past about squatter schools?

Senegal has done nothing, why would they "pull a plug" of any sort?

The GMC (authority in England) did the "pulling of the plug" so to speak, but only for the campus in England, the operations in Senegal are not under the purview of the GMC, so it is safe (in my opinion) to transfer to Senegal and continue ones studies.

MDXRS22
12-22-2005, 04:55 PM
Which school is next then????

It's like Spartan, CASHU and WINDSOR are steady and there to stay with the flow. I bet!!

diogenes
12-22-2005, 05:01 PM
Senegal has done nothing, why would they "pull a plug" of any sort?

The GMC (authority in England) did the "pulling of the plug" so to speak, but only for the campus in England, the operations in Senegal are not under the purview of the GMC, so it is safe (in my opinion) to transfer to Senegal and continue ones studies. From your information I take it that the Senegalese authorities have formally confirmed their support and approval of St. Chris?

neilc
12-22-2005, 05:50 PM
i think the school can continue to operate in the UK, as the GMC cannot yet really close them down. they can simply not recognize the degree.

what is concerning for current and past students will be the stateside reaction to this. i find it pretty hard to believe that most states will recognize a degree that has lost its recognition anywhere. i am also pretty sure that givin the nature of the GMC investigation (ie charter issues) that the ECFMG will have to look into it.

what are current students and recent grads doing? hopefully NOBODY is still considering this school for january 2006. if this is not a serious wake up call, i dont know what is.

empathy
12-22-2005, 06:32 PM
All of this talk is just that talk. If, students new or old have questions regarding what is going on they should contact the GMC for assistance.

neilc
12-22-2005, 06:36 PM
All of this talk is just that talk. If, students new or old have questions regarding what is going on they should contact the GMC for assistance.

the GMC has made it pretty clear that they do not recognize the degree. the school admin has made it pretty clear that they do not give good info.

what is left to be determined is how this will impact licensure in the US. the best people to contact for that are the state boards.

however, at this point, i think all would agree that it is a very, very foolish and risky decision to attend st chris.

i would love to hear some input from current students as to how this is being handled at the school.

also, if anybody has heard from any state or the ECFMG, please do post that info.

teratos
12-22-2005, 06:46 PM
This doesn't bode well for the students of SC. Many states will now have grounds for not granting licensure. Who knows what the ECFMG will decide, but the idea that the grads of the school cannot practice on the soil where they went to school is not good. I am sorry to hear this. G

CorporateRaider
12-22-2005, 07:00 PM
All of this talk is just that talk. If, students new or old have questions regarding what is going on they should contact the GMC for assistance.

Contact the GMC? For what? They have already issued a statement.

CorporateRaider
12-22-2005, 07:02 PM
From your information I take it that the Senegalese authorities have formally confirmed their support and approval of St. Chris?

Someone posted that some officials from Senegal visited the campus and even made supportive statements. Are you saying that SC has lost the support of the Government of Senegal? What is your source of information?

empathy
12-22-2005, 08:01 PM
Find out if they have wrapped up their investigation. Perhaps this is the end of it. Also, call Oregon for more info. They are really on top of these things.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

Per Oregon

St. Christopher's College of MedicineSenegal, UK***Suspended by the British medical licensing authority, November 2005.*** ***Senegal denies its degree-granting authority*** ODA has no evidence that this is an accredited or otherwise acceptable provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards. Note: "St Christopher's Medical school (aka) St Christopher's Medical College based in Luton is not recognised by the UK authorities as a degree course provider nor does it satisfy the criteria for degree awarding..." UK Higher Education Governance office, 2004.


Contact the GMC? For what? They have already issued a statement.

azskeptic
12-22-2005, 09:05 PM
i think the school can continue to operate in the UK, as the GMC cannot yet really close them down. they can simply not recognize the degree.

what is concerning for current and past students will be the stateside reaction to this. i find it pretty hard to believe that most states will recognize a degree that has lost its recognition anywhere. i am also pretty sure that givin the nature of the GMC investigation (ie charter issues) that the ECFMG will have to look into it.

what are current students and recent grads doing? hopefully NOBODY is still considering this school for january 2006. if this is not a serious wake up call, i dont know what is. their announcement says nothing yet about the ruling they will make for non-approved schools to do clerkships/clinicals in the UK; this would be a limiting factor also?

maximillian genossa
12-22-2005, 09:22 PM
If we carefully read the decision, and as some of you have pointed out, the UK is not saying no to St. Chris Senegal, it is saying no to St. Chris Luton. Review the decision....

"Degrees issued after a course of study at St Christopher's College of Medicine Luton are not acceptable for the purposes of registration with the GMC"

Either they left Senegal open for registration or forgot to address it, or simply don't care. However, if we use the St. Luke case as precedent, they would have mentioned Senegal as well, and they did not.

As of now, before they reject any student from St. Chris Senegal for registration, they have to be more specific in their language, it is a technicality, but a valid one until further clarification.

Also Azskeptic raises an important question..how about the students doing clerkships/clinicals in the UK?

maximillian genossa
12-22-2005, 09:41 PM
They made pretty clear that they do not recognize the degree ... from students who completed the program in LUTON. They did not mention what happens to the degrees from Senegal students. That needs clarification, so contacting the GMC is still valid advise.






the GMC has made it pretty clear that they do not recognize the degree. the school admin has made it pretty clear that they do not give good info.

what is left to be determined is how this will impact licensure in the US. the best people to contact for that are the state boards.

however, at this point, i think all would agree that it is a very, very foolish and risky decision to attend st chris.

i would love to hear some input from current students as to how this is being handled at the school.

also, if anybody has heard from any state or the ECFMG, please do post that info.

ni203
12-22-2005, 09:57 PM
this is a very scary news for the students who have spent thier time and money on this college... :S

amyames
12-22-2005, 10:02 PM
wow, I'm so sad for my friends that currently attend St. Chris. I know a girl in basic sciences, and a girl starting clinics soon. I really hope the states they want to practice in will still be available for them, they are great students and great people.

I would really like to hear what the admin is telling students right about now, but since the semester might be over, and all the students home for break, that info might not be available. if anyone knows anything coming from St. Chris itself please let me know! I'd really like to know what state of things my friends are in. I'm going to try and contact them after the Christmas weekend is over.

oh, and why hasn't this info been posted in the St. Chris Underground? I'm surprised to read about it on valuemd first and not the underground. what's with that?

and happy holidays everyone. I hope everyone can have a good Christmas despite the bad news.

neilc
12-22-2005, 10:12 PM
They made pretty clear that they do not recognize the degree ... from students who completed the program in LUTON. They did not mention what happens to the degrees from Senegal students. That needs clarification, so contacting the GMC is still valid advise.

well, as mentioned on this forum, there appear to be no UK or US students at the senegal campus. and, i cannot imagine that too many students would switch campus to senegal.

CorporateRaider
12-22-2005, 10:36 PM
well, as mentioned on this forum, there appear to be no UK or US students at the senegal campus. and, i cannot imagine that too many students would switch campus to senegal.

Ummmmm, why not? I mean, its an investment they would / will lose so transferring to Senegal is a very healthy idea.

After all --- Senegal is not that bad.

ni203
12-22-2005, 10:41 PM
well, as mentioned on this forum, there appear to be no UK or US students at the senegal campus. and, i cannot imagine that too many students would switch campus to senegal.

I agree, also I think the campus in Senegal is instructed using their official language French. So far from what I know, most students attending the campus in Luton don’t speak French.

The St. Christ admin in Luton should come up with a better plan for the students who have already graduated and are still attending the institution.

This is not a silly game; people’s lives are going to be ruined if the admin doesn’t come up with a better plan and of course answers for the students.

I pray for all the students of St. Christopher’s College of Medicine that their dream of becoming physicians do come true.

ed gee
12-22-2005, 10:49 PM
Many people have setbacks. Not sure what experience you have if you think this will ruin people's lives. No one forced the students to attend SC, they can always go elsewhere.





This is not a silly game; people’s lives are going to be ruined if the admin doesn’t come up with a better plan and of course answers for the students.

I pray for all the students of St. Christopher’s College of Medicine that their dream of becoming physicians do come true.

neilc
12-22-2005, 10:52 PM
Ummmmm, why not? I mean, its an investment they would / will lose so transferring to Senegal is a very healthy idea.

After all --- Senegal is not that bad.

well, first of all, there is little guarantee that going to senegal WILL fix the problem. as you noted, it could simply be a matter of inadvertend omission. second, i truly doubt the infrastructure is in place in senegal to provide an education for all these students. do you really think the professors will move to senegal? they have little motivation to do so. finally, i think you are overlooking the reality that a large number of those at st chris chose it specifically for the location in england. if they didn't want a carib island, they sure won't want to go to africa! (in fact, i would say that a significant amount of students went to st chris simply to say they went to an english school, but that is a different thread entirely! right, ****?)

the biggest issue by far is the assumption that showing up in senegal will fix anything. apparently, the GMC was not moved by the senegalese govt and it's position on st chris. the govt has no outside recognition of it's accreditation. there are no grads from senegal working. so, it would be exchanging one gamble that turned out poorly for another that also has a high risk of turning out poorly. at this point, the unfortunate students of st chris should have learned a horrible lesson about taking risks with medical education, and should not take needless gambles. go to an established school, even if you have to repeat most of your education. otherwise you have a good chance of wasting more time and money.

what really gets me is that the admin was just telling everybody how this has been blown out of proportion and will soon be resolved. every crisis they face, this has been the stock saying. and every time the problem is not resolved. i really hope that the students finally learn not to believe a word the school says, no matter how bad you want it to be true.

neilc
12-22-2005, 10:55 PM
I agree, also I think the campus in Senegal is instructed using their official language French. So far from what I know, most students attending the campus in Luton don’t speak French.

The St. Christ admin in Luton should come up with a better plan for the students who have already graduated and are still attending the institution.

This is not a silly game; people’s lives are going to be ruined if the admin doesn’t come up with a better plan and of course answers for the students.

I pray for all the students of St. Christopher’s College of Medicine that their dream of becoming physicians do come true.


i wouldn't trust any plan the admin comes up with, at this point. the unfortunate grads and later year students are in a tough spot, and i hope it works out ok for them. but, anybody who can should get out, and fast. whatever you may lose now is tough. but, you could be setting yourself up to lose a lot more if you stick around. do not rely on the admin, look what they have done thus far.

AUCMD2006
12-22-2005, 11:04 PM
this doesn't really say anything. it doesn't say the investigation is over or that this is the final word. it could be just an update on previous info...give them time to come with a final answer before you begin to nail SC's coffin. it may still turn out well

Chi-town
12-22-2005, 11:07 PM
i called the Senegal campus...earlier in My St Chris Career...it was around last March.....

1) the lady said there are 7 people in a clas....was unsure to what semester was being taught....i asked if Dr L ever visited...she said who?...

2) Yes it is in french...

3) What about the civil war going on in Dakar...my dad went for relief work there....even CNN reported 22 locals were killed there due to constant tribal warfare.

To tell u the truth...yes i was drawn to this school....My GPA was a 3.4 and MCAT a 27....not great and i did not get into any US med...only 2 waiting lists.

i was attracted by london...and expected issues with a FMG....but sorry guys...this is scary as hell

neilc
12-22-2005, 11:09 PM
this doesn't really say anything. it doesn't say the investigation is over or that this is the final word. it could be just an update on previous info...give them time to come with a final answer before you begin to nail SC's coffin. it may still turn out well

well, they went from saying that the GMC was investigating, and to contact the GMC for further info to eliminating the word investigation and saying the degrees are not recognized. i think that it is pretty clear what has happened. why would they change the wording, and take out the word investigation if it was not finished???

that is a pretty flimsy straw to hold onto, methinks.

neilc
12-22-2005, 11:13 PM
this doesn't really say anything. it doesn't say the investigation is over or that this is the final word. it could be just an update on previous info...give them time to come with a final answer before you begin to nail SC's coffin. it may still turn out well

yeah, just went to the GMC site to re-read it, and look for ambiguity. there really is none. no mention of investigation, and in bold it says they do not recognize the degree for registration. it takes quite an imagination to see any leeway or room for doubt in that, although i am sure the st chris admin will try to.

ni203
12-22-2005, 11:37 PM
Many people have setbacks. Not sure what experience you have if you think this will ruin people's lives. No one forced the students to attend SC, they can always go elsewhere.

You actually think spending 4-6 yrs + tuition (not sure how much but most likely majority of the students had to take loans to pay for their tuitions) to become a doctor and then being slapped by this news is not a big deal????

How can you even make comments like that??

Yes, students were not forced to attend St. Christ but they chose St. Christ believing their hard work and all the sacrifices will earn them a medical degree.

And especially for the students who have to re-start their education ( or career), this is not a encouraging news.

neilc
12-22-2005, 11:51 PM
[Yes, students were not forced to attend St. Christ but they chose St. Christ believing their hard work and all the sacrifices will earn them a medical degree.

this situation is horrible. i feel for all the students, simply because i know they worked just as hard as i did, and will likely be screwed because of a poor choice.

that being said, there were lots and lots of warnings from a lot of people about the risk of this school. there are certainly some students that were agressive in recruitment, and who blatantly minimized real issues. those folks have a lot of students to answer too, whom were encouraged by what turned out to be bad advice and wishful thinking. i wonder how well they are sleeping at night, considering this.


i hope people considering med school do learn from this, and stick with established schools.

MDXRS22
12-22-2005, 11:54 PM
Well, well, well......not all bargains are good bargains.

diogenes
12-23-2005, 07:01 AM
As of sometime today, following a phone call to the GMC by an interested party who required clarification of the council's position, they have reverted to their previous "under investigation" page.

teratos
12-23-2005, 07:01 AM
As of sometime today, following a phone call to the GMC by an interested party who required clarification of the council's position, they have reverted to their previous "under investigation" page.

Interesting......

diogenes
12-23-2005, 07:18 AM
Interesting...... Yes. As a number of us have suggested there is more to this than meets the eye and sadly St. Chris. students and other affected individuals will have to await the last act of the GMC play. It's a bit like watching someone tantalizingly peeling layers of onion skin.

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 07:21 AM
Yes. As a number of us have suggested there is more to this than meets the eye and sadly St. Chris. students and other affected individuals will have to await the last act of the GMC play. It's a bit like watching someone tantalizingly peeling layers of onion skin. like alot of other things there isn't always a last act either. there are so many agencies involved,etc. that it has a life of its own is apparently its reality. Interesting.

teratos
12-23-2005, 07:22 AM
Yes. As a number of us have suggested there is more to this than meets the eye and sadly St. Chris. students and other affected individuals will have to await the last act of the GMC play. It's a bit like watching someone tantalizingly peeling layers of onion skin.

It is, no doubt, especially painful for those who will be affected by the decision. Much like surgery with no anesthesia. G

matt
12-23-2005, 07:36 AM
hello everyone,
After reading whuds's post on GMC update I called GMC today. They said the school is still in the process of being invesigated, the decission has not been made yet. for update go back on the GMC webpage

neilc
12-23-2005, 07:40 AM
very interesting. pehaps there is some hope after all.

i still strongly would advise people to not attend this school, and to get out while the gettin may still be good. but, whatever the heck is going on, they did change some of the wording, so who knows what will happen.

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 07:44 AM
very interesting. pehaps there is some hope after all.

i still strongly would advise people to not attend this school, and to get out while the gettin may still be good. but, whatever the heck is going on, they did change some of the wording, so who knows what will happen. What is obvious is that their website html writer left up his 'change' that wasn't ready to be released yet. someone would have called and they caught their error and reverted their site to the official version that is out. Interesting,eh?

Hope is best reserved for things like I hope the Yankees win the Series but one shouldn't be in a position of hoping that their school gets a favorable ruling...too many variables involved.

LJG
12-23-2005, 07:49 AM
The GMC has posted today that the degrees will not be accepted.

I'm Sorry to the current students of St. Chris.




A note to everyone, Please do not start new threads on this here and do not repost this everywhere here. Thank you.

I called the GMC today and they said this was a mistake, they have already corrected it on their website. Back to square one.........

empathy
12-23-2005, 07:56 AM
They were just getting too many calls. Call Oregon instead. I'm surprised that people from the US trust foreign gov more than their own. You place your hope on a few words from a small group from Senegal when your own country has been warning you about this school for some time now.


I called the GMC today and they said this was a mistake, they have already corrected it on their website. Back to square one.........

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 07:58 AM
I called the GMC today and they said this was a mistake, they have already corrected it on their website. Back to square one......... How do you explain the layout being done?

neilc
12-23-2005, 07:58 AM
I called the GMC today and they said this was a mistake, they have already corrected it on their website. Back to square one.........

well, not exactly back to square one. we do have a hint as to what direction they are leaning on this.

OLDPRO
12-23-2005, 08:04 AM
You owe them a heck of a lot more than an apology. Shame on you for posting things that weren't true and giving them false hope.

GMC changes back?:confused:
12/23/05 web site



(* Correct as at 3 November 2005)
European College of Medicine, London
We are currently investigating the European College of Medicine's previously listed affiliations to universities in Russia. Until our investigations are complete we have suspended our acceptance of medical degrees awarded by this institution and/or any of it's affiliations. Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

Please note that GMC does not accept degrees awarded by the College's previous affiliation with the St Luke's School of Medicine in Liberia. The WHO has also confirmed that this school will be removed from their listing.

Grace University School of Medicine, London
This institution was previously affiliated to Grace University School of Medicine in Belize and the College of Medicine and Health Sciences in Saint Lucia. It is awaiting accreditation from a new host country. We currently do not accept degrees awarded by this institution as it is unclear who is awarding them.

London College of Medicine, London
London School of Medicine, London
London Medical School, London
The parent institution appears to have changed its name several times. It was previously affiliated to the International University of Health Sciences in St. Kitts and Nevis. We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the College of Medicine and Health Sciences in St Lucia. Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

School of Health and Neural Sciences, Nottingham
We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the College of Medicine and Health Sciences in St Lucia. Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

Medical College London, Montserrat
This institution currently awards degrees from the University of Science, Arts and Technology, Montserrat, British West Indies which is not WHO listed. We do not accept its degrees for the purpose of registration.

American International School of Medicine, UK satellite campus
We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the American International School of Medicine in Guyana. Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

St. Christopher's College of Medicine, Luton
We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the St Christopher ‘s College of Medicine in Senegal. Until our investigations are complete we have suspended our acceptance of medical degrees awarded by this institution and/or any of it's affiliations. Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.


I don't give false Hope, if anyone does, it is GMC,WHO,ECMFG,IMED does per this mess!:confused:

empathy
12-23-2005, 08:10 AM
Let's just table this discussion. Everything that can be said has been said now. Let the students call the authorities who can help. We don't really know anything more than the info they put on their websites anyway. I'd hate for people to be tuning in here for more info when they should be on the phone calling the GMC and Oregon for REAL information. All we are doing now is scaring them.


well, not exactly back to square one. we do have a hint as to what direction they are leaning on this.

LJG
12-23-2005, 08:18 AM
well, not exactly back to square one. we do have a hint as to what direction they are leaning on this.

After speaking with Mr. B and Mr. S. they state that the GMC is in the process of establishing a new creterior for all foreign schools and that SCCOM is the pilot based on the documentation, main campus inspections, and other stuff. They still expect to be fully re-instated and are now working with the GMC. When I asked why is everything taking so long they believe because of the volume of programs they are looking at and the need to have several doc's (some hundreds of pages) translated from French to English. SCCOM is so confident they will be re-instated they said they will return my tuition if they do not.

If you are a student at SCCOM I recommend you call yourself and speak with Mr. F. S.

CorporateRaider
12-23-2005, 08:24 AM
After speaking with Mr. B and Mr. S. they state that the GMC is in the process of establishing a new creterior for all foreign schools and that SCCOM is the pilot based on the documentation, main campus inspections, and other stuff. They still expect to be fully re-instated and are now working with the GMC. When I asked why is everything taking so long they believe because of the volume of programs they are looking at and the need to have several doc's (some hundreds of pages) translated from French to English. SCCOM is so confident they will be re-instated they said they will return my tuition if they do not.

If you are a student at SCCOM I recommend you call yourself and speak with Mr. F. S.


Will they refund the time spent along with the tuition?

studentMD
12-23-2005, 08:26 AM
After speaking with Mr. B and Mr. S. they state that the GMC is in the process of establishing a new creterior for all foreign schools and that SCCOM is the pilot based on the documentation, main campus inspections, and other stuff. They still expect to be fully re-instated and are now working with the GMC. When I asked why is everything taking so long they believe because of the volume of programs they are looking at and the need to have several doc's (some hundreds of pages) translated from French to English. SCCOM is so confident they will be re-instated they said they will return my tuition if they do not.

If you are a student at SCCOM I recommend you call yourself and speak with Mr. F. S.

id get that in writing just to be on the safe side

jpryor
12-23-2005, 08:28 AM
What is obvious is that their website html writer left up his 'change' that wasn't ready to be released yet. someone would have called and they caught their error and reverted their site to the official version that is out. Interesting,eh?

Hope is best reserved for things like I hope the Yankees win the Series but one shouldn't be in a position of hoping that their school gets a favorable ruling...too many variables involved.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this one, Az. However, given the verbiage changes on all of the schools, it seems a blanket decision was made versus a school specific decision. Even if the new 'change' is posted again, I doubt the issue is resolved.

It does seem unprofessional that the GMC has gone through this knee-jerk. My experience is that most state boards and ruling bodies are manned by low-paid clerks with a high turn-over operating within well-circumscribed parameters. If the ingredients aren't perfectly right, you get a decision that can be wrong, right or fubu'd.

neilc
12-23-2005, 08:33 AM
After speaking with Mr. B and Mr. S. they state that the GMC is in the process of establishing a new creterior for all foreign schools and that SCCOM is the pilot based on the documentation, main campus inspections, and other stuff. They still expect to be fully re-instated and are now working with the GMC. When I asked why is everything taking so long they believe because of the volume of programs they are looking at and the need to have several doc's (some hundreds of pages) translated from French to English. SCCOM is so confident they will be re-instated they said they will return my tuition if they do not.

If you are a student at SCCOM I recommend you call yourself and speak with Mr. F. S.
i love it! the "i just spoke with the school, and they said everything is ok" post. i was waiting for it. this one goes a bit further, and now claims that st chris will be the model school for the GMC, just moments after we all read the "mistake" by GMC. sure. i buy it. not.

if at this point you still trust what the school is telling you (or what students on here are posting) you pretty much deserve your fate. history has shown in nearly every instance that these people are blowing sunshine at all costs. remember, this is the school that told you "47 states were good" on the website many years ago, that NJ was in the bag because a senator was visiting, that used pics of other schools on the website, and that most recently said everything was ok because the ambassador from senegal says so. each of these things has been wrong, and the GMC outcome does not look promising. the school will tell you what you want to hear for as long as they can. they need your cash, and they want to grab as much as possible.

run, do not walk, away from this school. while i will concede the very, very small chance that the GMC could be changing their mind, or that the school may not be locked out 100% (very small chance, IMHO), there are still the many other issues surrounding this school. no matter what admin feeds you, they are and will be facing problems for a long time.

LJG
12-23-2005, 08:37 AM
I'm inclined to agree with you on this one, Az. However, given the verbiage changes on all of the schools, it seems a blanket decision was made versus a school specific decision. Even if the new 'change' is posted again, I doubt the issue is resolved.

It does seem unprofessional that the GMC has gone through this knee-jerk. My experience is that most state boards and ruling bodies are manned by low-paid clerks with a high turn-over operating within well-circumscribed parameters. If the ingredients aren't perfectly right, you get a decision that can be wrong, right or fubu'd.

I'm sure AZ could help us with our transfer to MUA???????

AZ has other problems rumor has it that St. M has filed it's law suit against the AAIMG in Nevada??? any comment AZ???????

neilc
12-23-2005, 08:41 AM
I'm sure AZ could help us with our transfer to MUA???????

AZ has other problems rumor has it that St. M has filed it's law suit against the AAIMG in Nevada??? any comment AZ???????

and here it is! part two of the famous st chris defense...DIVERSION.

things sure are predictable over here at VMD. glad to have you back st chris, good to see the spin artists at it again. if nothing else, you are fun to poke a stick at!

i think by now most everyone sees through you. it is gonna be a tough row to hoe recruiting now, isn't it? if i were you i would start calling around for transfer (or worse yet, year 1) applications. at least you get out of the english winter, eh?

empathy
12-23-2005, 08:42 AM
Please email what you were told to the GMC.

Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

[email protected]uk.org


After speaking with Mr. B and Mr. S. they state that the GMC is in the process of establishing a new creterior for all foreign schools and that SCCOM is the pilot based on the documentation, main campus inspections, and other stuff. They still expect to be fully re-instated and are now working with the GMC. When I asked why is everything taking so long they believe because of the volume of programs they are looking at and the need to have several doc's (some hundreds of pages) translated from French to English. SCCOM is so confident they will be re-instated they said they will return my tuition if they do not.

If you are a student at SCCOM I recommend you call yourself and speak with Mr. F. S.

neilc
12-23-2005, 08:44 AM
i think we could sell the st chris tactics to political advisors everywhere! call it the sunshine and diversion tactic.

1. step 1, deny everything, and claim the opposite is in fact true. (example: the GMC actually love us, and are going to model a new division after us)
2. step 2, divert attention from the above ridiculous statement before people can digest it (example:and your mother is a tramp! lets talk about how trampy she is? how can you talk about st chris when your mom is such a tramp?)

anybody want to buy my kit? apparently you can build a med school on it and get pretty wealthy before anybody catches on.

OLDPRO
12-23-2005, 08:58 AM
They were just getting too many calls. Call Oregon instead. I'm surprised that people from the US trust foreign gov more than their own. You place your hope on a few words from a small group from Senegal when your own country has been warning you about this school for some time now. Then the only schools to go to are:
AUC, ROSS, SGU, SABA since they are all 50 approved the others are not, Oh wait Mr. Sessions (Senator from ALABAMA who called the Big three Diploma Mills,Who is not liked by me) warned us about them too. Hmm seems a flaw in the logic?:confused::confused::confused: Also not all the reknown Medical schools in Europe are all 50 approved too, some have brand new English teaching programs but many many years teaching Medicine, are warned about them too? I would be careful about an agenda here and this is way off topic.

empathy
12-23-2005, 08:59 AM
I req that this thread be locked because I could see all of this coming but the moderators took up for you guys. That should prove that VMD is a fair forum. They have NO affiliation with St. Chris. They are here for the students. Things ARE predictable here on ValueMD - the truth ALWAYS comes out.

At this point I'd advise everyone to go back to the BBC broadcast - Quack Qualifications and listen more closely to what was said. Everything in the broadcast was true and through the years this information had been posted here on ValueMD but students wouldn't listen. Now, they are paying the price. I do feel sad for you guys but maybe this was a lesson you needed to learn.


and here it is! part two of the famous st chris defense...DIVERSION.

things sure are predictable over here at VMD. glad to have you back st chris, good to see the spin artists at it again. if nothing else, you are fun to poke a stick at!

i think by now most everyone sees through you. it is gonna be a tough row to hoe recruiting now, isn't it? if i were you i would start calling around for transfer (or worse yet, year 1) applications. at least you get out of the english winter, eh?

LJG
12-23-2005, 09:46 AM
I req that this thread be locked because I could see all of this coming but the moderators took up for you guys. That should prove that VMD is a fair forum. They have NO affiliation with St. Chris. They are here for the students. Things ARE predictable here on ValueMD - the truth ALWAYS comes out.

At this point I'd advise everyone to go back to the BBC broadcast - Quack Qualifications and listen more closely to what was said. Everything in the broadcast was true and through the years this information had been posted here on ValueMD but students wouldn't listen. Now, they are paying the price. I do feel sad for you guys but maybe this was a lesson you needed to learn.

The BBC had no documentation to prove their opinion. So I say to you PROVE it. On the W.H.O. website it says Feb 2000, prove it wrong!!!!!!!

microphage
12-23-2005, 10:11 AM
i love it! the "i just spoke with the school, and they said everything is ok" post. i was waiting for it. this one goes a bit further, and now claims that st chris will be the model school for the GMC, just moments after we all read the "mistake" by GMC. sure. i buy it. not.

if at this point you still trust what the school is telling you (or what students on here are posting) you pretty much deserve your fate. history has shown in nearly every instance that these people are blowing sunshine at all costs. remember, this is the school that told you "47 states were good" on the website many years ago, that NJ was in the bag because a senator was visiting, that used pics of other schools on the website, and that most recently said everything was ok because the ambassador from senegal says so. each of these things has been wrong, and the GMC outcome does not look promising. the school will tell you what you want to hear for as long as they can. they need your cash, and they want to grab as much as possible.

run, do not walk, away from this school. while i will concede the very, very small chance that the GMC could be changing their mind, or that the school may not be locked out 100% (very small chance, IMHO), there are still the many other issues surrounding this school. no matter what admin feeds you, they are and will be facing problems for a long time.

Yup, Fact remains... SC is on the GMC pooh pooh pooh list.

empathy
12-23-2005, 10:12 AM
Other schools have been listed on WHO that are now closed. I'd trust Oregon over WHO listings any day. Read the dipoma mill articles in the relaxing lounge. Read what they say about Senegal...please note, there is nothing about St. Chris specifically in these articles. Also, listen to the BBC's FiveLive Report 'Quack Qualifications' in the report they are speaking to the authority in Senegal. Careful what you say about the BBC and the GMC on ValueMD. I include links to this site in my email.


The BBC had no documentation to prove their opinion. So I say to you PROVE it. On the W.H.O. website it says Feb 2000, prove it wrong!!!!!!!

microphage
12-23-2005, 10:15 AM
The BBC had no documentation to prove their opinion. So I say to you PROVE it. On the W.H.O. website it says Feb 2000, prove it wrong!!!!!!!

Dude.. who cares. BBC is just a news media station. GMC is the governing body. What GMC says goes..

Get back to the topic at hand. Stop bickering little ones... :-smiley7

maximillian genossa
12-23-2005, 10:21 AM
Just checked the GMC website and the language changed again... to the previous ambiguous language. This is a joke. The GMC is making a joke out of itself, St. Chris is a joke and us wasting our time with this c.r.a.p. are a joke too.

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 10:22 AM
I'm sure AZ could help us with our transfer to MUA???????

AZ has other problems rumor has it that St. M has filed it's law suit against the AAIMG in Nevada??? any comment AZ??????? ah, I knew the old 'AZ is a recruiter' post would come also.

Whatever St. Matts did with AAIMG, a Nevada corporation, I will never know. It is a sealed document. You could request info from them on it. It isn't my problem nor my issue.

empathy
12-23-2005, 10:44 AM
The GMC is not a joke. They are a really good group of people. It's not their fault that an american and his wife decided to make a business out of medical colleges, went to a third world country - got a charter, found a loop hole in English law and set up shop in the GMC's backyard. They are doing the best they can to deal with a situation that was thrust upon them. They are as much a victim in this as the students.


Just checked the GMC website and the language changed again... to the previous ambiguous language. This is a joke. The GMC is making a joke out of itself, St. Chris is a joke and us wasting our time with this c.r.a.p. are a joke too.

maximillian genossa
12-23-2005, 11:10 AM
The GMC is not a joke. They are a really good group of people. It's not their fault that an american and his wife decided to make a business out of medical colleges, went to a third world country - got a charter, found a loop hole in English law and set up shop in the GMC's backyard. They are doing the best they can to deal with a situation that was thrust upon them. They are as much a victim in this as the students.

Come on, give me a break, they could have stuck with the original decision if they were not sure. But no, yesterday they changed their language and explicitly said one thing and today they revert back to the previous language. You know how we call that?

Flip Flopers....yes the GMC is proving beyond doubt that they are flip flopers.

A real joke.

Keyop
12-23-2005, 01:11 PM
The BBC had no documentation to prove their opinion. So I say to you PROVE it. On the W.H.O. website it says Feb 2000, prove it wrong!!!!!!!
The BBC didn't need documentation. The two schools the report focussed on -- St. Chris and European College of Medicine -- claimed affiliation from foreign medical schools. The report broadcast the actual voice of a senior education minister (Senegal) and a senior head of a Russian school saying they were not recognised. That's BETTER than documentation.

Of course, there was a piece of documentation which would have put St. Chris in the right, but as the reporter said, the head of the school wouldn't actually hand that over.

I think the GMC has pulled the news from their site because it's Christmas. Their office is likely to be closed from today until the New Year. They probably didn't think it would generate so much interest, and thought that it wouldn't be fair to leave a bunch of people in limbo over Christmas. Well ... I know they've already done that, but I reckon that's why they pulled it ... it'll be straight back up in the New Year.

bts4202
12-23-2005, 02:31 PM
St. Christopher's College of Medicine, Luton
We are currently investigating this institution's affiliation to the St Christopher ‘s College of Medicine in Senegal. Until our investigations are complete we have suspended our acceptance of medical degrees awarded by this institution and/or any of it's affiliations. Please contact us ([email protected]) for advice if you are currently studying or applying to study at this institution.

http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp


After conversations with the St. Chris admin and a barrage of emails and phone calls from current students, the GMC retracted its change in wording to aknowledge that they are still investigating. They have asked for some additional documents from St. Christopher's, which the school has agreed to provide. This documentation, while very important, is not very complicated and should be available to the GMC as soon as they return from the holiday break in the beggining of january. More updates are expected by mid January.

empathy
12-23-2005, 02:50 PM
Please do not believe everything you read on the internet. Contact the GMC directly for advice.

[email protected]


[center]
http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp


After conversations with the St. Chris admin and a barrage of emails and phone calls from current students, the GMC retracted its change in wording to aknowledge that they are still investigating. They have asked for some additional documents from St. Christopher's, which the school has agreed to provide. This documentation, while very important, is not very complicated and should be available to the GMC as soon as they return from the holiday break in the beggining of january. More updates are expected by mid January.

neilc
12-23-2005, 03:16 PM
[center]
http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp


After conversations with the St. Chris admin and a barrage of emails and phone calls from current students, the GMC retracted its change in wording to aknowledge that they are still investigating. They have asked for some additional documents from St. Christopher's, which the school has agreed to provide. This documentation, while very important, is not very complicated and should be available to the GMC as soon as they return from the holiday break in the beggining of january. More updates are expected by mid January.

yep. i believe that they recieved a deluge of calls, no argument there. but to think that they reopened the investigation and are now just requesting some simple documents, and all will be well is frankly stupid. do you really think the GMC is going to be too affected by a bunch of students from the school they have investigated? do you really think the "degree not accepted" version of the website was not created for a reason? do you really believe that since the website went up, something has changed at the GMC or st chris? i don't. in all likelihood it was just posted a bit early, and will be back up soon. that is certainly the smart and safe assumption to go by. do not assume all will be well after some paperwork is submitted.

all along we have been hearing that the documents have been provided, and all will soon be well. what appears to have happened is that the website was updated, but simply posted a bit too early. i think it is pretty clear what direction the GMC is leaning simply by the fact that that website with the wording 'degree not accepted' ever existed.

if you are thinking of going to st chris in jan 2006, i would at the very least defer. this latest twist is not a good sign, but the admin will be happy to take your money while it gets resolved.

bts4202
12-23-2005, 03:24 PM
yep. i believe that they recieved a deluge of calls, no argument there. but to think that they reopened the investigation and are now just requesting some simple documents, and all will be will is frankly stupid. all along we have been hearing that the documents have been provided, and all will soon be well. what appears to have happened is that the website was updated, but simply posted a bit too early. i think it is pretty clear what direction the GMC is leaning simply by the fact that that website with the wording 'degree not accepted' ever existed.

if you are thinking of going to st chris in jan 2006, i would at the very least defer. this latest twist is not a good sign, but the admin will be happy to take your money while it gets resolved.

Maybe my writing was not clear, i apologize. The investigation was never closed, even though they changed the website. They asked for some additional things (yes, even if you provide everything they ask for up front, they can still ask for more later). Conspiracy theorists can have a ball with this one, but the fact is that they realized that their update was inaccurate and premature so they withdrew it.

As I said, there will be additional updates after the GMC reopens in Jan.

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 03:32 PM
[center]
http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp


After conversations with the St. Chris admin and a barrage of emails and phone calls from current students, the GMC retracted its change in wording to aknowledge that they are still investigating. They have asked for some additional documents from St. Christopher's, which the school has agreed to provide. This documentation, while very important, is not very complicated and should be available to the GMC as soon as they return from the holiday break in the beggining of january. More updates are expected by mid January. Oh man, this takes the cake. In the holiday spirit I had sworn not to say anything negative but I can't not say that this is not fair to potential students. Outsiders can easily see that there is more to this than just a few phone calls could handle. Geez.

maximillian genossa
12-23-2005, 03:38 PM
...hate to admit it, but I have to agree with Neil C's logic. If the GMC did something yesterday (besides proving they are big time flip floppers) is to signal how they will rule in this and other cases.
If you want to study at St. Chris with no problems, go to Senegal. Stay away from the Luton complex, sooner or later this will have bigger consequences.

yep. i believe that they recieved a deluge of calls, no argument there. but to think that they reopened the investigation and are now just requesting some simple documents, and all will be well is frankly stupid. do you really think the GMC is going to be too affected by a bunch of students from the school they have investigated? do you really think the "degree not accepted" version of the website was not created for a reason? do you really believe that since the website went up, something has changed at the GMC or st chris? i don't. in all likelihood it was just posted a bit early, and will be back up soon. that is certainly the smart and safe assumption to go by. do not assume all will be well after some paperwork is submitted.
all along we have been hearing that the documents have been provided, and all will soon be well. what appears to have happened is that the website was updated, but simply posted a bit too early. i think it is pretty clear what direction the GMC is leaning simply by the fact that that website with the wording 'degree not accepted' ever existed.
if you are thinking of going to st chris in jan 2006, i would at the very least defer. this latest twist is not a good sign, but the admin will be happy to take your money while it gets resolved.
:-smiley7

bts4202
12-23-2005, 03:46 PM
Thats the fantastic thing about opinions in America, we all have them and are free to share them. Also, outsiders are unburdened by knowing any of the internal workings of a situation so they are free to interpret things by imagination alone. I wont share too much here, but as I said, there will be more updates in mid january after the GMC reopens.. till then, speculate away.

ni203
12-23-2005, 03:54 PM
i think we could sell the st chris tactics to political advisors everywhere! call it the sunshine and diversion tactic.

1. step 1, deny everything, and claim the opposite is in fact true. (example: the GMC actually love us, and are going to model a new division after us)
2. step 2, divert attention from the above ridiculous statement before people can digest it (example:and your mother is a tramp! lets talk about how trampy she is? how can you talk about st chris when your mom is such a tramp?)

anybody want to buy my kit? apparently you can build a med school on it and get pretty wealthy before anybody catches on.

LOLZ That i

neilc
12-23-2005, 04:22 PM
I wont share too much here, but as I said, there will be more updates in mid january after the GMC reopens.. till then, speculate away.

well, it is pretty clear that a) the website wording was changed and b) the gmc are closed. so, the logical conclusion is that the revelation was simply premature. the wording was changed at some point, by someone, for a reason. now, with the GMC being closed, it is truly hard to believe that paperwork is being submitted, etc...

ni203
12-23-2005, 04:22 PM
i think we could sell the st chris tactics to political advisors everywhere! call it the sunshine and diversion tactic.

1. step 1, deny everything, and claim the opposite is in fact true. (example: the GMC actually love us, and are going to model a new division after us)
2. step 2, divert attention from the above ridiculous statement before people can digest it (example:and your mother is a tramp! lets talk about how trampy she is? how can you talk about st chris when your mom is such a tramp?)

anybody want to buy my kit? apparently you can build a med school on it and get pretty wealthy before anybody catches on.

LOLZ That is funny... and yes you are correct how can students still trust what the admins are saying??

And about the refund of the tuition there should be an official document stating that!

Students who are back home for the holidays should think about applying to another medical college... and applying especially to established medical colleges and I hope students have learned their lesson from this very unfortunate events (especially for the students who are going to be affect).

And if GMC will model anything after St. Christopher’s College of Medicine, is that students learn the following lessons before applying to any college!

1. Their charter in another country (in a under developing country and there is no tie between the 2 campuses!) and their degrees not accepted in the country where the campus is located.

2. They don’t have their own hospitals obviously it is not an established college.


3. They don’t even have their own dormitory, how can there be a medical college w/o its own dormitory and that it rents out apartment for the students.

4. the Luton campus is not listed in WHO (even though their website says they are accredited by both WHO and FAIMER)


5. Do you own research on the medical college, don’t just take the admin’s advice.

DON’T TAKE A RISK THINKING THINGS WILL CHANGE BY THE TIME I GRADUATE! Because that is just a very dull mistake a person can make; institutions should not have negative rumors on their backs!

Just apply to established colleges and stay away from “get into medical college with 2.0 GPA” signs!

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 04:25 PM
well, it is pretty clear that a) the website wording was changed and b) the gmc are closed. so, the logical conclusion is that the revelation was simply premature. the wording was changed at some point, by someone, for a reason. now, with the GMC being closed, it is truly hard to believe that paperwork is being submitted, etc... It is the Miracle in Luton.......

well, we'll all see what will happen but personally I'm betting on the GMC being the one who will call the shots. BTS doesn't have a real good prediction history here so far.

bts4202
12-23-2005, 04:34 PM
once again, as I posted just an hour ago, the documents that were requested should be submitted when the GMC reopens in Jan. If you know of some way to get the GMC to reopen during the holidays then I will be REALLY impressed. However, I am sure their significant others would not be too happy with you for that.

My track record of predictions in england is pretty good. When we lost our ability to get visas, I predicted it would be fixed within a month and it happened. The last time the GMC had issue with our degrees and suspended our registration status, I predicted it would be resolved shortly, and it was. No one bats 100%, certainly not me and certainly not you either, so we will see what happens.

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 04:38 PM
once again, as I posted just an hour ago, the documents that were requested should be submitted when the GMC reopens in Jan. If you know of some way to get the GMC to reopen during the holidays then I will be REALLY impressed. However, I am sure their significant others would not be too happy with you for that.

My track record of predictions in england is pretty good. When we lost our ability to get visas, I predicted it would be fixed within a month and it happened. The last time the GMC had issue with our degrees and suspended our registration status, I predicted it would be resolved shortly, and it was. No one bats 100%, certainly not me and certainly not you either, so we will see what happens. Wel, potential students need to review the history indeed. Those since 2003 who have visited Valuemd have known the questions of 'outsiders' who have asked the same questions that are being dealt with now. But if you can believe that the 'website changes' were not meant and aren't being worked on by a website person and accidentally left visible, you believe in miracles bigger than I a mere mortal can comprehend. "It is a miracle" speaks loudly on all of this.

bts4202
12-23-2005, 04:47 PM
Wel, potential students need to review the history indeed. Those since 2003 who have visited Valuemd have known the questions of 'outsiders' who have asked the same questions that are being dealt with now. But if you can believe that the 'website changes' were not meant and aren't being worked on by a website person and accidentally left visible, you believe in miracles bigger than I a mere mortal can comprehend. "It is a miracle" speaks loudly on all of this.

So then what are you going to do if the GMC comes out and says "st chris is fine, we accept their degrees for registration again"? Will all your questions be answered then? All the repetitive insinutations about our charter, etc? Since "the questions of 'outsiders' who have asked the same questions that are being dealt with now"? Will you then leave st chris alone? Or are you that deep into it that you do not care anymore about answering questions and only seek the closure of a school you view as your nemesus(sp?)?

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 04:51 PM
So then what are you going to do if the GMC comes out and says "st chris is fine, we accept their degrees for registration again"? Will all your questions be answered then? All the repetitive insinutations about our charter, etc? Since "the questions of 'outsiders' who have asked the same questions that are being dealt with now"? Will you then leave st chris alone? Or are you that deep into it that you do not care anymore about answering questions and only seek the closure of a school you view as your nemesus(sp?)? The GMC is resolving the issues asked indeed. I have not sought closing of SC. What will your response be if they rule as their website manager appears to be doodling in his holiday time?

bts4202
12-23-2005, 04:53 PM
The GMC is resolving the issues asked indeed. I have not sought closing of SC. What will your response be if they rule as their website manager appears to be doodling in his holiday time?

Answer my question and I will then be happy to answer yours.

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 04:56 PM
Answer my question and I will then be happy to answer yours. I believe in local control of issues. I will agree with the GMC's ruling on what offshore medical schools in the UK do. They are the ones to run medical rules in England and if they rule on charter issues that will answer another question also. Your turn.

bts4202
12-23-2005, 05:09 PM
I believe in local control of issues. I will agree with the GMC's ruling on what offshore medical schools in the UK do. They are the ones to run medical rules in England and if they rule on charter issues that will answer another question also. Your turn.

ahh, so what your saying is that you will not quit until england does what you feel is right with regards to having offshore schools within its borders. So basically you do not care if the GMC finds us acceptable and will not be happy until we have been thrown out of england.

I maintain my belief that st chris is a quality institution operating fully within each and every law in each and every country it has operations in.

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 05:14 PM
ahh, so what your saying is that you will not quit until england does what you feel is right with regards to having offshore schools within its borders. So basically you do not care if the GMC finds us acceptable and will not be happy until we have been thrown out of england.

I maintain my belief that st chris is a quality institution operating fully within each and every law in each and every country it has operations in. No, that is not what I said. I support legitimate govt agencies in all countries. Whatever the GMC says is what we should support. Will you support their rules? THey are the boss. Your attempt at changing my statement is mildly amusing.

bts4202
12-23-2005, 05:18 PM
No, that is not what I said. I support legitimate govt agencies in all countries. Whatever the GMC says is what we should support. Will you support their rules? THey are the boss. Your attempt at changing my statement is mildly amusing.

of course that is not exactley what you said, but I have been around long enough to be able to read between the lines. Politicians, even internet ones, are the same the world over.

azskeptic
12-23-2005, 05:20 PM
of course that is not exactley what you said, but I have been around long enough to be able to read between the lines. Politicians, even internet ones, are the same the world over. You can't be anymore explicit than say you support the decisions of the GMC.

teratos
12-23-2005, 05:26 PM
This has been the biggest concern of many since SC came onto the scene. A med school operating on soil where it isn't chartered, and has no official nod to operate as a med school. I brought this very topic up on Network54 with Duncan McLeod (spp?). I also brought it up early in VMDs existence. If SC survives, it can only strengthen the position of the school. If the GMC rules against SC, I believe the school will likely be scrutinized by the US, and that there will be a great deal of trouble with licensure in the future. Since I am an IMG, and have been in the shoes of people making the sacrafices needed to attend med school in another country, I am hoping that SC comes through OK. I don't want to see the students get hurt. I also think that the admin of SC has been less than honest with the students on several important points. BTS, they have put you in bad situations before, and you have taken a lot of flak because of it. I hope this isn't another one of those instances. Let's just wait and see what happens. G

Speedracer
12-23-2005, 05:27 PM
What are the current basic sciences and clinical sciences students doing, after such a dreadful GMC decision regarding the St. Chris's status in UK?

Are current basic sci students considering to transfer out of the program in droves?

How about the current clinical sciences students? Has the GMC decision affected any of you? If not, is it just a matter of time, before you will be yanked out of your rotations as well, just like the ones in UK?

Perhaps the St. Chris cheerleaders can now answer these questions?

empathy
12-23-2005, 05:33 PM
bts ~

Documents? Documents? One last time DOCUMENTS? How silly.

This isn't a matter of submitting documents - you are under investigation sister. They don't just ring you up and say, 'ohhhhhh, you have the paperwork...we're sooooo sorry, come on down after the holidays and we'll reinstate you guys - our bad.

The GMC isn't even speaking to you - they are digging into the last 7 years since you became an entity. Doing background checks, following leads and seeing if there has been any criminal activity going on a.k.a. fraudulent activity. You guys know less than we do.

Once the investigation is over you will either:

A. Ceast to exist as a college or

B. Be allowed to remain in England

I'm not betting either way. I just don't like to see things get spun. The truth is always best. And the truth is you are spreading rumors to give students false hope.


once again, as I posted just an hour ago, the documents that were requested should be submitted when the GMC reopens in Jan. If you know of some way to get the GMC to reopen during the holidays then I will be REALLY impressed. However, I am sure their significant others would not be too happy with you for that.

My track record of predictions in england is pretty good. When we lost our ability to get visas, I predicted it would be fixed within a month and it happened. The last time the GMC had issue with our degrees and suspended our registration status, I predicted it would be resolved shortly, and it was. No one bats 100%, certainly not me and certainly not you either, so we will see what happens.

Chi-town
12-23-2005, 05:45 PM
the BURSAR sent this out to my friends who are now entering 5th semester

SAW EMAIL REGARDING GMC NOT ACCEPTING OUR DEGREES. WE ARE STILL PROVIDING THEM WITH REQUESTED INFORMATION AND EXPECT TO BE FULLY REINSTATED.
THEY HAVE TODAY ALREADY CHANGES IT BACK TO INVESTIGATING

teratos
12-23-2005, 05:50 PM
the BURSAR sent this out to my friends who are now entering 5th semester

SAW EMAIL REGARDING GMC NOT ACCEPTING OUR DEGREES. WE ARE STILL PROVIDING THEM WITH REQUESTED INFORMATION AND EXPECT TO BE FULLY REINSTATED.
THEY HAVE TODAY ALREADY CHANGES IT BACK TO INVESTIGATING



The fact they changed it in the first place could be an ominous sign, eh?

empathy
12-23-2005, 06:18 PM
You've done it three times now. Please stop sending me private messages. I am not your friend D. You have the wrong person. Thank you!


of course that is not exactley what you said, but I have been around long enough to be able to read between the lines. Politicians, even internet ones, are the same the world over.

Keyop
12-24-2005, 02:36 AM
...hate to admit it, but I have to agree with Neil C's logic. If the GMC did something yesterday (besides proving they are big time flip floppers) is to signal how they will rule in this and other cases.
If you want to study at St. Chris with no problems, go to Senegal. Stay away from the Luton complex, sooner or later this will have bigger consequences.
:-smiley7


Uh ... dude ... there is no Senegal campus ... or at least no campus that is operative on the same scale as Luton ... my understanding is that it's a 'three rooms above a shop' type campus. I'm happy to be proved wrong if people have pictures.

jpryor
12-24-2005, 07:17 AM
The fact they changed it in the first place could be an ominous sign, eh?

While I tend to agree, I'd be more impressed with the decision process if the changes in verbiage had been school specific. As it was, the same wording was used for every school that was under investigation, which suggests that the change was an administrative decision as opposed to the resolution of a specific investigation.

There appear to be a few people eager to dance on the grave of SC (and I specifically do not mean Az, Neil or George). I won't claim to speak for others, but I don't think you'll find your comments appreciated by most of the people who post on VMD. Your self-aggrandizement is infantile and that you use the occasion of SC's difficulties is deplorable.

teratos
12-24-2005, 08:22 AM
While I tend to agree, I'd be more impressed with the decision process if the changes in verbiage had been school specific. As it was, the same wording was used for every school that was under investigation, which suggests that the change was an administrative decision as opposed to the resolution of a specific investigation.

There appear to be a few people eager to dance on the grave of SC (and I specifically do not mean Az, Neil or George). I won't claim to speak for others, but I don't think you'll find your comments appreciated by most of the people who post on VMD. Your self-aggrandizement is infantile and that you use the occasion of SC's difficulties is deplorable.

We should all consider the number of people affected by an adverse decision by the GMC. It will affect people just like us, who want to be physicians and for one reason or another had to look outside the traditional routes. I hope, for the sake of the students, that it all works out. I have been less than impressed with the quality of information that has come from the administration. What is even sadder is they tell a student who disseminated the information here, and when it turns out to be wrong, the student takes the blame. I see the same cycle happening now. G

empathy
12-24-2005, 08:47 AM
Teratos -

I hadn't thought about that. Your post is one we all need to read. They are just repeating the things they are being told and they have invested thousands of dollars and hours of their lives into this school so they are hoping against hope that they are hearing the truth. We need to show a little more compassion, myself included, and pray that everything works out alright for them.

About a week ago, I read a profile of a St. Chris grad who is now doing residency in Ohio...she seemed so sweet...she was talking about her love of Christ and how she wanted to share it with those around her. Obviously, she is a wonderful person. I'm sure many of the rest are as well.


We should all consider the number of people affected by an adverse decision by the GMC. It will affect people just like us, who want to be physicians and for one reason or another had to look outside the traditional routes. I hope, for the sake of the students, that it all works out. I have been less than impressed with the quality of information that has come from the administration. What is even sadder is they tell a student who disseminated the information here, and when it turns out to be wrong, the student takes the blame. I see the same cycle happening now. G

Keyop
12-24-2005, 01:26 PM
We should all consider the number of people affected by an adverse decision by the GMC. It will affect people just like us, who want to be physicians and for one reason or another had to look outside the traditional routes. G

It is a shame that if students studying at SC et al end up not being able to pursue the career they wanted. They've invested time, money, and hard work.

BUT being a physician is an important job, and there should never be any short-cuts, or ways around the system. Not all, but most students at the offshore schools attend such schools for one reason: they weren't good enough to get into a regular medical school. Medicine is not for the middle of the road.

neilc
12-24-2005, 01:36 PM
There appear to be a few people eager to dance on the grave of SC (and I specifically do not mean Az, Neil or George). I won't claim to speak for others, but I don't think you'll find your comments appreciated by most of the people who post on VMD. Your self-aggrandizement is infantile and that you use the occasion of SC's difficulties is deplorable.

you know, this brings up something i just want to emphasize. i appreciate you mentioning it, jpryor. cause i have been thinking about whether i seem "eager to dance on the grave of SC". i am sure some would think that based on my posts. i really don't want the innocent students to get screwed, no matter how pissed off at the school i seem. i would love if there was some way for the administrators to get screwed, if it wouldn't affect the students, no question about that. there is no love lost for them. and, there are certainly a few students (or perhaps they are admin posing as students) that i think have been less than helpful and honest with new students that i lace much respect for.

but, i do NOT think it is right for the students to suffer for the sins of these few. that is what gets me the most upset.

all i want is for all to be honest about the school. simple. don't candy coat, and let people make up their own minds based on reality. then, if the poop hits the fan, nobody can be too upset at anybody but themselves. now, it seems they feel tricked, betrayed, and amazingly, they seem to be upset with the messengers. as if anybody but the school had anything to do with this.....

butters
12-24-2005, 01:57 PM
It is a shame that if students studying at SC et al end up not being able to pursue the career they wanted. They've invested time, money, and hard work.

BUT being a physician is an important job, and there should never be any short-cuts, or ways around the system. Not all, but most students at the offshore schools attend such schools for one reason: they weren't good enough to get into a regular medical school. Medicine is not for the middle of the road.


"Regular medical school?" As in a U.S. medical school? There are just as many fine institutions worldwide that U.S. citizens are attending that are "regular medical schools." And yes, u are right...there are no shortcuts to being a doctor but these students along with many others at Caribbean institutions and everywhere else are not taking shortcuts...in fact, their courses are similar, if not the same to curriculums followed in U.S. Schools.

"Good enough to get into a regular medical school." A lot of Caribbean students I've met are just as good, if not better than the U.S. students out there. It's unfortunate they were unable to get in the U.S. schools b/c based on stats and their complete packages, they should have gotten in!

I'm not familiar with St. Chris, it's admin, or students...what I do know is that they are an off-shore school with students similar to any school...And in all honesty, any changes made to one school can possibly affect other off-shore schools. We all need to be careful and support each other as IMG's and not think we are better than one another b/c we attend Institution X or Instituiton Z. At the end of the day, we are ALL IMG's!

I hope the situation gets better...things are just getting worse for us day by day...first the federal loan situation and now this..

Keyop
12-24-2005, 03:48 PM
"Regular medical school?" As in a U.S. medical school? There are just as many fine institutions worldwide that U.S. citizens are attending that are "regular medical schools." And yes, u are right...there are no shortcuts to being a doctor but these students along with many others at Caribbean institutions and everywhere else are not taking shortcuts...in fact, their courses are similar, if not the same to curriculums followed in U.S. Schools.

"Good enough to get into a regular medical school." A lot of Caribbean students I've met are just as good, if not better than the U.S. students out there. It's unfortunate they were unable to get in the U.S. schools b/c based on stats and their complete packages, they should have gotten in!

I'm not familiar with St. Chris, it's admin, or students...what I do know is that they are an off-shore school with students similar to any school...And in all honesty, any changes made to one school can possibly affect other off-shore schools. We all need to be careful and support each other as IMG's and not think we are better than one another b/c we attend Institution X or Instituiton Z. At the end of the day, we are ALL IMG's!

I hope the situation gets better...things are just getting worse for us day by day...first the federal loan situation and now this..


Okay, I accept I was over the top. I agree that very good students can get turned away from oversubscribed courses/schools.

azskeptic
12-24-2005, 03:56 PM
Okay, I accept I was over the top. I agree that very good students can get turned away from oversubscribed courses/schools. I've spoken to students who were given bad counseling by their colleges as to their ability to get into medical or osteopathic school in the US and proceeded to directly go to offshore schools,not even trying. Yet if they had checked their grades and mcats weren't that marginal and their other achievements could have got them in. With that said, so what if you aren't a Rhodes scholar; if you work hard,make the grade, you deserve your MD degree, and your chance. Pick a legit school and give it to yourself.

empathy
12-24-2005, 08:30 PM
Az ~

So say someone didn't go to a legit school and now they are over $100,000 in debt, dead broke, but still wanting to be a doctor. What do they do? Where do they go for help?


I've spoken to students who were given bad counseling by their colleges as to their ability to get into medical or osteopathic school in the US and proceeded to directly go to offshore schools,not even trying. Yet if they had checked their grades and mcats weren't that marginal and their other achievements could have got them in. With that said, so what if you aren't a Rhodes scholar; if you work hard,make the grade, you deserve your MD degree, and your chance. Pick a legit school and give it to yourself.

bts4202
12-24-2005, 09:14 PM
.... ..........

ni203
12-24-2005, 11:53 PM
St. Christopher's College of MedicineSenegal, UK***Suspended by the British medical licensing authority, November 2005.*** ***Senegal denies its degree-granting authority*** ODA has no evidence that this is an accredited or otherwise acceptable provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards. Note: "St Christopher's Medical school (aka) St Christopher's Medical College based in Luton is not recognised by the UK authorities as a degree course provider nor does it satisfy the criteria for degree awarding..." UK Higher Education Governance office, 2004
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

and some students still wants to go to St. Christ...

smoohead
12-25-2005, 12:20 AM
This is a confusing website :confused: SGU and MUA are also on the list. P'shaw, who likes Oregon anyway? :p No offense to anyone who does!!

neilc
12-25-2005, 12:30 AM
This is a confusing website :confused: SGU and MUA are also on the list. P'shaw, who likes Oregon anyway? :p No offense to anyone who does!!

yeah, i have never been much a fan of the OR site either. i mean, if a school is listed here, sure it would raise some red flags, and i would look into it. but, there doesn't seem to be much of a standard process involved. it seems a lot more political to me.

if you are going to go by a state, use the CA list. it is the only state that requires the schools to pass an evaluation by an independend board for licensure in the state. the NY list is ok as well, but there are a lot more provisions that allow a lot of schools to not apply because they simply don't need it. further, you can still get a license in the state without approval, so a school doesn't need this approval to get grads working in NY.

in general, use all the sources for a starting point, including this site. if you cannot verify what is said at several different and independent sources, then there is likely something dodgy going on.

one thing i would caution against, however, is falling for the "oh, it is just OR, who cares!". the problem is that disapproval in one state can certainly affect what other states will think of you. just be aware of the fact that it may be able to hurt you. another thing to consider is that if a school has these sort of listings, and no evidence of any outside evaluation giving the school credibility, this could be a warning sign. if all you hear from the folks that evaluate or give licenses is bad, and the only people saying good things are current students and admin, you may have a problem.

best of luck

smoohead
12-25-2005, 12:55 AM
Oooooh, I see now...thanks for the clarification! :)

microphage
12-25-2005, 12:58 AM
This is a confusing website :confused: SGU and MUA are also on the list. P'shaw, who likes Oregon anyway? :p No offense to anyone who does!!





its actually a different SGU(St. George Univ Int)... the one they mention is on St Kitts. And the one we know is St. George's Univ. Very close but diff

azskeptic
12-25-2005, 04:43 AM
Az ~

So say someone didn't go to a legit school and now they are over $100,000 in debt, dead broke, but still wanting to be a doctor. What do they do? Where do they go for help? That is the problem....you may have some recourse in some states but each situation is unique. You need to talk to an attorney about your contract,etc. to see if there is any opportunity to recover the money you have spent..if there are US funds that can be traced,etc. This also shows the risk you are in if you choose the wrong educational opportunity.

options
12-25-2005, 07:14 AM
you know, this brings up something i just want to emphasize. i appreciate you mentioning it, jpryor. cause i have been thinking about whether i seem "eager to dance on the grave of SC". i am sure some would think that based on my posts. i really don't want the innocent students to get screwed, no matter how pissed off at the school i seem. i would love if there was some way for the administrators to get screwed, if it wouldn't affect the students, no question about that. there is no love lost for them. and, there are certainly a few students (or perhaps they are admin posing as students) that i think have been less than helpful and honest with new students that i lace much respect for.

but, i do NOT think it is right for the students to suffer for the sins of these few. that is what gets me the most upset.

all i want is for all to be honest about the school. simple. don't candy coat, and let people make up their own minds based on reality. then, if the poop hits the fan, nobody can be too upset at anybody but themselves. now, it seems they feel tricked, betrayed, and amazingly, they seem to be upset with the messengers. as if anybody but the school had anything to do with this.....

I don't think any of us wish anything bad upon our fellow IMG's and I hope that this all works out okay for everyone. Yet, it's hard to feel sorry for people would put their futures at risk on a school that was on such shaky ground. I remember in undergrad I was discussing with two other pre-meds about going to a caribbean school, and they thought that I was crazy that I would choose the caribbean over St. Chris, a "british" school. I tried to tell them the possible pitfalls of St. Chris and to be careful, but they were totally dis-interested. I imagine they are there now.
I feel like a hippocrit for typing this, since I go to an offshore school as well. All of us are taking a certain amount of risk on this path, but when I was choosing offshore education, I was able to rule out st. chris within minutes. It was clearly a bad choice to risk 100k on. So, although this isn't the 'fault' of the students, they still should have taken more responsiblity for their own futures and not been so reckless.

CorporateRaider
12-25-2005, 07:50 AM
Az ~

So say someone didn't go to a legit school and now they are over $100,000 in debt, dead broke, but still wanting to be a doctor. What do they do? Where do they go for help?
First of all are you speaking hypothetically or is it a real situation?

Are there more people in the same situation? What nationality are they? How many are there that you know of?

As an example and this is just me giving an opinion; the St Luke Liberia case might have enough merits for signatory country citizens (US citizens might be able to coat tail in under the Helms Admt.) to take the Country of Liberia to ICSID.

If there is enough interest the next step would to be consult an international law firm.

smoohead
12-25-2005, 01:01 PM
I'm really sad that you feel this way. Because it's not about going to a school that you 'know' is shaky. You can't say it's as simple as that. I really wish I could explain my own personal situation to you. I don't think any of us wants your pity. We just need a little understanding and compassion. As a future doctor, that shouldn't be too hard for you to muster up.

But I don't know, you over-generalize with that comment... Blah...I always feel like I have to defend myself on here!! :p



I don't think any of us wish anything bad upon our fellow IMG's and I hope that this all works out okay for everyone. Yet, it's hard to feel sorry for people would put their futures at risk on a school that was on such shaky ground. I remember in undergrad I was discussing with two other pre-meds about going to a caribbean school, and they thought that I was crazy that I would choose the caribbean over St. Chris, a "british" school. I tried to tell them the possible pitfalls of St. Chris and to be careful, but they were totally dis-interested. I imagine they are there now.
I feel like a hippocrit for typing this, since I go to an offshore school as well. All of us are taking a certain amount of risk on this path, but when I was choosing offshore education, I was able to rule out st. chris within minutes. It was clearly a bad choice to risk 100k on. So, although this isn't the 'fault' of the students, they still should have taken more responsiblity for their own futures and not been so reckless.

empathy
12-25-2005, 01:50 PM
Go back and listen to the Five Live Report Quack Qualifications. Everything in this report is true and that is why the GMC launched an investigation. Put together a game plan based on truth not just rumors. Things will make sense if you guys stop running away from things you don't want to hear. You'll die underground because you won't have exposure to the light. The best thing you can do now is look for ways to help others so they won't have to suffer the same fate. There's a potential victim logging onto ValueMD every minute.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/fivelivereport.shtml

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/fraudreport.html

http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html







I don't think any of us wish anything bad upon our fellow IMG's and I hope that this all works out okay for everyone. Yet, it's hard to feel sorry for people would put their futures at risk on a school that was on such shaky ground. I remember in undergrad I was discussing with two other pre-meds about going to a caribbean school, and they thought that I was crazy that I would choose the caribbean over St. Chris, a "british" school. I tried to tell them the possible pitfalls of St. Chris and to be careful, but they were totally dis-interested. I imagine they are there now.
I feel like a hippocrit for typing this, since I go to an offshore school as well. All of us are taking a certain amount of risk on this path, but when I was choosing offshore education, I was able to rule out st. chris within minutes. It was clearly a bad choice to risk 100k on. So, although this isn't the 'fault' of the students, they still should have taken more responsiblity for their own futures and not been so reckless.

options
12-25-2005, 02:29 PM
I'm really sad that you feel this way. Because it's not about going to a school that you 'know' is shaky. You can't say it's as simple as that. I really wish I could explain my own personal situation to you. I don't think any of us wants your pity. We just need a little understanding and compassion. As a future doctor, that shouldn't be too hard for you to muster up.

But I don't know, you over-generalize with that comment... Blah...I always feel like I have to defend myself on here!! :p






You don't have to defend yourself. If you knew your risks involved, and went for it, then fine. We are all taking risks.

CorporateRaider
12-25-2005, 04:07 PM
The issue appear to be:

1) Legal Issues.

From what I can figure out, the school does not have any academic problems (they appear to offer quality education).

It seems that the "hooplah" is about the legal footing the school stands on. Operating as an LLC (perhaps) or some other form of private education service provider.

My "guess" being added to the pot.

1.) The GMC probably does not have the "legal" authority to close down St. Chris.

2.) When the GMC states they do not accept degree's for registration, the language is clear on what they won't do, but it is not clear "why" they won't do it.

3.) What the GMC can/might do is throw a cloud over the Luton operations to a point where counter-parts in the USA and others places might follow their lead and decide to "disallow" certification (ECFMG, ETC.).

4.) I continue to think that transffering to Senegal is the safest choice, should things not land in favor of St. Chris.

empathy
12-25-2005, 05:16 PM
What about NHS?

quote=CorporateRaider]The issue appear to be:

1.) The GMC probably does not have the "legal" authority to close down St. Chris.

diogenes
12-25-2005, 05:21 PM
I agree that there don't seem to be many complaints from students on this forum about the academic quality at the school.
I believe that there is a major concern about quality control and assurance. I have never thought that the issue was only or mainly one of when (if ever) certain documents were signed which gave a valid WHO listing to St. Chris.
Going back to the BBC feature which started this train of events is instructive. The Professor Leinster (dean of a uk med. school and, crucially, a member of the team which inspects U.K. schools) made much of the quality control and assurance issues. There was legitimate concern expressed about the standards of squatter schools in so far as these impinged on U.K. hospitals where students might be rotating. I highlighted this in early November on this forum and sure enough shortly afterwards the GMC sent that advisory notice to all NHS hospitals.
I agree with CorporateRaider that the GMC is unlikely to have any powers to stop the schools operating on U.K. soil. Partly for that very reason I am tempted to believe the assurances of the St. Chris. admin. that something (possibly quite novel) is being brokered. If such a deal is on its way I would expect it to address the issues of quality assurance and accountability. These include:-
Who sets the exams and monitors their standard?
Who validates the syllabus?
Is the teaching and staffing adequate?The new deal could involve:-
Quality checks by U.K. bodies and/or
checks by the Senegalese
some tinkering with the legal status and name of the school to highlight its place outside the normal run of U.K. schools and its Senegalese sponsorship.Sending the students to Senegal for basic sciences would be a partial option. However I doubt if the St. Chris. admin. or the majority of their students, present and future, would be very keen on that one. In any case the GMC might consider this a pretty poor way of achieving the quality assurances they desire.

smoohead
12-25-2005, 05:30 PM
Yeah but my point is that a lot of people didn't know... and now are stuck. I'm not so reckless that if I had known I would have gone for it anyway...



You don't have to defend yourself. If you knew your risks involved, and went for it, then fine. We are all taking risks.

CorporateRaider
12-25-2005, 05:35 PM
EMPATHY: What about NHS?

CORPORATE RAIDER: Good question and or point. I am not 100% on the legal authority structure in England, in other words who(m) controlls what, but I am sure that NHS is an important factor in the entire process.

CorporateRaider
12-25-2005, 05:48 PM
I agree that there don't seem to be many complaints from students on this forum about the academic quality at the school.
I believe that there is a major concern about quality control and assurance. I have never thought that the issue was only or mainly one of when (if ever) certain documents were signed which gave a valid WHO listing to St. Chris.
Going back to the BBC feature which started this train of events is instructive. The Professor Leinster (dean of a uk med. school and, crucially, a member of the team which inspects U.K. schools) made much of the quality control and assurance issues. There was legitimate concern expressed about the standards of squatter schools in so far as these impinged on U.K. hospitals where students might be rotating. I highlighted this in early November on this forum and sure enough shortly afterwards the GMC sent that advisory notice to all NHS hospitals.
I agree with CorporateRaider that the GMC is unlikely to have any powers to stop the schools operating on U.K. soil. Partly for that very reason I am tempted to believe the assurances of the St. Chris. admin. that something (possibly quite novel) is being brokered. If such a deal is on its way I would expect it to address the issues of quality assurance and accountability. These include:-

Who sets the exams and monitors their standard?
Who validates the syllabus?
Is the teaching and staffing adequate?The new deal could involve:-

Quality checks by U.K. bodies and/or
checks by the Senegalese
some tinkering with the legal status and name of the school to highlight its place outside the normal run of U.K. schools and its Senegalese sponsorship.Sending the students to Senegal for basic sciences would be a partial option. However I doubt if the St. Chris. admin. or the majority of their students, present and future, would be very keen on that one. In any case the GMC might consider this a pretty poor way of achieving the quality assurances they desire.

CORPORATE RAIDER OPINES:The above reflects a "hand in hand" resolution to the potential issues. How does the "Host Country" (ENGLAND) offer oversight and/or quality control over "squatter school(s)" ,........ remember legislation cannot be "invented" on the "fly." Either legislation already exists or it does not, in absence of legislation some type of agreement can be written up, but not exactly iron clad, do or die, articles of law.

Does the GMC/NHS/U.K. GOVERNMENT enter into a MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING with Senegal as to sometype of "quality control" measures while St. Chris operates on English soil? How would one write such a MEMORANDUM? Maybe a reciprocity agreement? Options include:

(a) GOVERNMENT TO GOVERNMENT
(b) MEDICAL COUNCIL TO MEDICAL COUNCIL
(c) MEDICAL COUNCIL TO GOVERNMENT

How powerful would the genuine Medical School lobby be in England to counter-act any type of "hand to hand" resolution?

If technically St. Chris operates as a PRIVATE LEARNING CENTER "deemed university" by its nature of service, then St. Chris would have to volunteer to subscribe to such quality and control checks. How do you force a private enterprise to subscribe to a governmental memorandum?

Usually most (all?) democratic countries respect private enterprise and education is a "service" that can be freely bought and sold.

By some of the numbers thrown around here, that St. Chris has around 840 students in Luton paying an average of $30k each in tuition per year (25,000,000.00 gross per annum) , I think that St. Chris has the financial muscle to put together a legal Dream Team of Solicitors in England, that can give the Government a run for its money should the final verdict be disfavorable.

empathy
12-25-2005, 05:49 PM
http://www.cfsms.nhs.uk/

As a result of these revelations the General Medical Council announced that it had suspended its recognition of degrees awarded by St Christopher's while it investigates the college's accreditation in Senegal. "We have immediately begun our own investigation, which centres on the possibility that private, UK-based, medical colleges have been inappropriately claiming that their courses would lead to the awarding of a medical qualification from a university," a spokeswoman said. "We have suspended our acceptance of the relevant medical degrees. "We have also asked the NHS Counter Fraud Service to assist us, and have amended the information on our website."

[quote=CorporateRaider]EMPATHY: What about NHS?

neilc
12-25-2005, 05:52 PM
Yeah but my point is that a lot of people didn't know... and now are stuck. I'm not so reckless that if I had known I would have gone for it anyway...



how are you "stuck"? i find that curious. you can always decide not to go, send out the apps to other schools. i would think that even if you paid some money it would still be better to give up that then to go and spend all that money to move and live, and wind up leaving anyhow.

empathy
12-25-2005, 06:05 PM
Smoo ~

You seem like an intelligent person. Just trust your gut. If it says 'yes' then catch the first flight out. Good luck. I wish you the very best!

Neil ~ :-shut


how are you "stuck"? i find that curious. you can always decide not to go, send out the apps to other schools. i would think that even if you paid some money it would still be better to give up that then to go and spend all that money to move and live, and wind up leaving anyhow.

neilc
12-25-2005, 06:16 PM
corporate raider, i don't doubt that the GMC are unlikely to be able to throw st chris out of the country. but, they certainly have the ability to not recognize the degree. and, were the US to adopt a similar stance, it would be an effective way of shutting st chris down, as i cannot imagine that it has enough students looking to live in other countries to support itself.

i am not sure why the GMC would bother to get involved in any relationship with the offshore "squatter" schools. they have plenty of work as it is, and there really is no benefit to the GMC or the UK. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. if they wanted to be that involved, st chris may as well be a UK school.

it seems to me that the path of least resistance would be for the UK to follow the lead of developed nations the world over, and not allow these squatter type schools. it would just be too expensive and labor intensive to try to regulate all of these outside schools, especially when i cannot see any benefit to the GMC for doing it.

diogenes
12-25-2005, 06:27 PM
CORPORATE RAIDER OPINES:The above reflects a "hand in hand" resolution to the potential issues. How does the "Host Country" (ENGLAND) offer oversight and/or quality control over "squatter school(s)" ,........ remember legislation cannot be "invented" on the "fly." Either legislation already exists or it does not, in absence of legislation some type of agreement can be written up, but not exactly iron clad, do or die, articles of law.

Does the GMC/NHS/U.K. GOVERNMENT enter into a MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING with Senegal as to sometype of "quality control" measures while St. Chris operates on English soil? How would one write such a MEMORANDUM? Maybe a reciprocity agreement? Options include:

(a) GOVERNMENT TO GOVERNMENT
(b) MEDICAL COUNCIL TO MEDICAL COUNCIL
(c) MEDICAL COUNCIL TO GOVERNMENT

How powerful would the genuine Medical School lobby be in England to counter-act any type of "hand to hand" resolution?

If technically St. Chris operates as a PRIVATE LEARNING CENTER "deemed university" by its nature of service, then St. Chris would have to volunteer to subscribe to such quality and control checks. How do you force a private enterprise to subscribe to a governmental memorandum?

Usually most (all?) democratic countries respect private enterprise and education is a "service" that can be freely bought and sold.

By some of the numbers thrown around here, that St. Chris has around 840 students in Luton paying an average of $30k each in tuition per year (25,000,000.00 gross per annum) , I think that St. Chris has the financial muscle to put together a legal Dream Team of Solicitors in England, that can give the Government a run for its money should the final verdict be disfavorable.
The NHS has no legal powers to close down or otherwise regulate any squatter school. However the hospitals can and may decide to heed the GMC's dire warning to them about allowing such students to rotate. Whether this would bother St. Chris much, given that they appear to have adequate slots in the U.S, I doubt.
My speculations about a change in the status quo don't involve new legislation. I agree, it would be some kind of understanding between the parties concerned- St. Chris, the GMC, and Senegal. This would not be iron-clad; and no, the school cannot be forced into it. However, if the owners wish to continue with what you rightly point out to be a thriving business they would be well advised to cooperate with the GMC (at least if they consider U.K. recognition valuable, which they may not). All this assumes that the GMC is not acting ultra vires in its suspension of recognition. That could make an interesting test case; but my guess is that if St. Chris. maintains its current position as unaccountable squatter the courts would favour the GMC.

empathy
12-25-2005, 06:29 PM
What went on between 1998 and 2000?

http://www.mdparadise.com/Alumni.htm


corporate raider, i don't doubt that the GMC are unlikely to be able to throw st chris out of the country. but, they certainly have the ability to not recognize the degree. and, were the US to adopt a similar stance, it would be an effective way of shutting st chris down, as i cannot imagine that it has enough students looking to live in other countries to support itself.

i am not sure why the GMC would bother to get involved in any relationship with the offshore "squatter" schools. they have plenty of work as it is, and there really is no benefit to the GMC or the UK. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. if they wanted to be that involved, st chris may as well be a UK school.

it seems to me that the path of least resistance would be for the UK to follow the lead of developed nations the world over, and not allow these squatter type schools. it would just be too expensive and labor intensive to try to regulate all of these outside schools, especially when i cannot see any benefit to the GMC for doing it.

diogenes
12-25-2005, 06:47 PM
..............
i am not sure why the GMC would bother to get involved in any relationship with the offshore "squatter" schools. they have plenty of work as it is, and there really is no benefit to the GMC or the UK. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. if they wanted to be that involved, st chris may as well be a UK school.

it seems to me that the path of least resistance would be for the UK to follow the lead of developed nations the world over, and not allow these squatter type schools. it would just be too expensive and labor intensive to try to regulate all of these outside schools, especially when i cannot see any benefit to the GMC for doing it. I agree: that is the weakest part of my seasonal speculations!
The most I can say in support of this New Year vision is that the GMC has stuck much more rigidly, than for example U.S. state boards, to the WHO-listing principle. In general if it's WHO-listed its OK. They have not, for instance, ruled against distance-learning schools like IUHS. If documentation from Senegal were to show a valid link between the school in Luton and the WHO entry then I believe the GMC's natural conservatism would take over: they would be reluctant to ditch a rule of thumb which they possibly believe has served them well. Other benefits, apart from legislative inertia and avoidance of embarassing and costly litigation, may include the money from all those students living in the U.K. and money paid to cash-strapped NHS hospitals.
Again this is idle speculation and I've gone much further in my crystal ball gazing than I originally intended; but I just can't help wondering if the St. Chris. admin's reassurances to students, recently more specific, are really completely groundless.

empathy
12-25-2005, 07:01 PM
Wasn't the WHO listing rec'd in 2000? (I might be wrong on that.) But I know they had atleast one graduate as early as 1998.


I agree: that is the weakest part of my seasonal speculations!
The most I can say in support of this New Year vision is that the GMC has stuck much more rigidly, than for example U.S. state boards, to the WHO-listing principle. In general if it's WHO-listed its OK. They have not, for instance, ruled against distance-learning schools like IUHS. If documentation from Senegal were to show a valid link between the school in Luton and the WHO entry then I believe the GMC's natural conservatism would take over: they would be reluctant to ditch a rule of thumb which they possibly believe has served them well. Other benefits, apart from legislative inertia and avoidance of embarassing and costly litigation, may include the money from all those students living in the U.K. and money paid to cash-strapped NHS hospitals.
Again this is idle speculation and I've gone much further in my crystal ball gazing than I originally intended; but I just can't help wondering if the St. Chris. admin's reassurances to students, recently more specific, are really completely groundless.

diogenes
12-25-2005, 07:32 PM
Wasn't the WHO listing rec'd in 2000? (I might be wrong on that.) But I know they had atleast one graduate as early as 1998. I honestly don't know. In the aftermath of the BBC item there has been much speculation about whether various bits of paper exist, were signed and what school if any they refer to. Without a hotline to the school, GMC or Senegal it's difficult to know what's really going on with the listing issue. However, I believe that the GMC will look at the accountability problems of squatter schools and in this case a WHO listing may not be enough to satisfy them. Hence they might consider an agreement with the other parties which does not totally overturn the WHO principle but still gives them whatever additional reassurance they need.

FLK
12-25-2005, 08:40 PM
Wasn't the WHO listing rec'd in 2000? (I might be wrong on that.) But I know they had atleast one graduate as early as 1998.

That might explain this blurb from mdparadise.com

He was one of the very first students to attend St. Christopher's around 1998. He is a trailblazer in every sense of the word. He did all of his basic sciences and clinicals with St. Christopher's. Following that he matched at the Rochester Mayo Clinic in Surgery. He finished his internship and decided to transfer to University of Tennessee so that he could have more direct patient contact. He is currently in his PGY-3 year and taking a year out to do research at the Cleveland Clinic.

I am a little confused by the fact that somebody would leave the Mayo clinic to head to tennessee to have more direct patient care but many things posted from and about this school don't make a whole lot of sense to me.
I don't believe this person has a medical license yet even after all these years. That might explain taking time out to do some pipette work ;)

I sure would hate to be going on residency interviews this Winter, or finishing PGY 3 with credits from a place that might be null and void in a few months when the GMC dam breaks and Azskeptic starts emailing all of the state licensing boards with the breaking news

I have a lot of sympathy for these folks just like I had for the people that put all of ( and lost all of ) their retirement money into Enron stock against the advice of every sound financial planner that advised them to diversify their portfolio. :D

I hate to say "I told you so", but I'll suck it up and say it anyway


I told you so :D

blythplace
12-25-2005, 10:56 PM
You don't work for the GMC as far as i know- and as far as i know it's went back to "investigating"- so i think "i told you so's" are a tad premature.
And i love that people call the one day accidental change an "ominous sign". ooo. The gods must have it in for us since the site had a mistake for a day that was instantly changed the next day. People's posts are getting to be pretty sad and it sounds more and more like people are hoping that st chris gets rejected by the gmc rather than hoping for the "best outcome" for the students that people on this board all claim they have.



That might explain this blurb from mdparadise.com


I am a little confused by the fact that somebody would leave the Mayo clinic to head to tennessee to have more direct patient care but many things posted from and about this school don't make a whole lot of sense to me.
I don't believe this person has a medical license yet even after all these years. That might explain taking time out to do some pipette work ;)

I sure would hate to be going on residency interviews this Winter, or finishing PGY 3 with credits from a place that might be null and void in a few months when the GMC dam breaks and Azskeptic starts emailing all of the state licensing boards with the breaking news

I have a lot of sympathy for these folks just like I had for the people that put all of ( and lost all of ) their retirement money into Enron stock against the advice of every sound financial planner that advised them to diversify their portfolio. :D

I hate to say "I told you so", but I'll suck it up and say it anyway

neilc
12-25-2005, 11:11 PM
And i love that people call the one day accidental change an "ominous sign". ooo.

so, you think somebody went to the trouble to retype the web page with very specific wording accidentally? that seems odd. doesn't it seem much more likely that a decision has been made, but it was just released a bit early, and while the GMC are out?

neilc
12-25-2005, 11:15 PM
I am a little confused by the fact that somebody would leave the Mayo clinic to head to tennessee to have more direct patient care but many things posted from and about this school don't make a whole lot of sense to me.
I don't believe this person has a medical license yet even after all these years. That might explain taking time out to do some pipette work ;)



i love it! he goes to mayo, a premier training program, and a great research center. then he leaves for "more direct patient contact". next thing you know he is doing research! hahahahhaha

that doesn't add up at all. leaving for patient contact to do research. hahaha! this is so st chris! spin the leaving (likely a prelim to a second year) and then have that sad reasoning blow up in your face. if he did in fact leave a prelim for U Tenn, that is alone a great accomplishment. no need to try to buff it up with some lame reasoning.

however, if the school's "trailblazer" is without a license and stuck in a research lab....well, that just shows what kind of trail is being blazed. not much of one.

neilc
12-25-2005, 11:20 PM
You don't work for the GMC as far as i know- and as far as i know it's went back to "investigating"- so i think "i told you so's" are a tad premature.
And i love that people call the one day accidental change an "ominous sign". ooo. The gods must have it in for us since the site had a mistake for a day that was instantly changed the next day. People's posts are getting to be pretty sad and it sounds more and more like people are hoping that st chris gets rejected by the gmc rather than hoping for the "best outcome" for the students that people on this board all claim they have.


1.do you really think the GMC "went back to investigating" while they are closed for the holidays?
2. do you really not think the fact that the site had been written and updated is an ominous sign?
3. i do hope the best for the students, although i don't expect it. and, i don't think encouraging people to buy into the school's party line (almost all of which have turned out to be poor predictors in the past) is helpful to anyone. IMHO, the best outcome may well be for this long saga to come to a close. it would suck for a lot of innocent students, but if it is going to happen, better now than later, when even more students get screwed.

medox
12-25-2005, 11:28 PM
3. i do hope the best for the students, although i don't expect it.

no you don't neilc. it's become obvious that you just repeat that catchphrase over and over but you don't really wish the best for the students.

you just like rubbing it in a passive-aggressive way.

neilc
12-25-2005, 11:40 PM
no you don't neilc. it's become obvious that you just repeat that catchphrase over and over but you don't really wish the best for the students.

you just like rubbing it in a passive-aggressive way.

thanks for the Dx, doc.

i do wish the best for the innocent students that bought the crap st chris was selling. they are just as hard working as i ever was, and don't deserve to get screwed. my postings are about st chris as an institution, the risks involved in attending and what i consider to be a misleading campaign by the school and certain students.

sorry if you think i am "rubbing it in". i ain't. i just hate to see people continue to fall for the same crap.

but, if you went there with eyes open, hey, more power to you and best of luck. if the school screws you in the end, you knew what you were getting into and will deal with it as you see fit.

neilc
12-25-2005, 11:41 PM
no you don't neilc. it's become obvious that you just repeat that catchphrase over and over but you don't really wish the best for the students.

you just like rubbing it in a passive-aggressive way.

thanks for the Dx, doc.

i do wish the best for the innocent students that bought the crap st chris was selling. they are just as hard working as i ever was, and don't deserve to get screwed. my postings are about st chris as an institution, the risks involved in attending and what i consider to be a misleading campaign by the school and certain students.

but, if you think my wanting the best for students should equate to shutting up and sitting back while people try to claim that all is well, you are misunderstanding me. while hoping for the best, i certainly do not expect it. burying your head in the sand is never the answer.

sorry if you think i am "rubbing it in". i ain't. i just hate to see people continue to fall for the same crap.

but, if you went there with eyes open, hey, more power to you and best of luck. if the school screws you in the end, you knew what you were getting into and will deal with it as you see fit.

medox
12-26-2005, 12:01 AM
but, if you went there with eyes open, hey, more power to you and best of luck. if the school screws you in the end, you knew what you were getting into and will deal with it as you see fit.

i don't go there. but i did look into it when i was searching for schools.

you can say what you want, but reading what you've said so far it's easy to see through your facade of "caring".

FLK
12-26-2005, 12:05 AM
i love it! he goes to mayo, a premier training program, and a great research center. then he leaves for "more direct patient contact". next thing you know he is doing research! hahahahhaha

that doesn't add up at all. leaving for patient contact to do research. hahaha! this is so st chris! spin the leaving (likely a prelim to a second year) and then have that sad reasoning blow up in your face. if he did in fact leave a prelim for U Tenn, that is alone a great accomplishment. no need to try to buff it up with some lame reasoning.

however, if the school's "trailblazer" is without a license and stuck in a research lab....well, that just shows what kind of trail is being blazed. not much of one.

translation and speculation

match ( probably scramble ) into a prelim surgery slot at mayo. ( spend a year getting scutted to death as a prelim PGY-1 )

Not offered a categorical position. (Mdparadise spin=Leave mayo for enhanced superior clinical training in TN)

Scramble into another prelim slot in Tennessee. (Doing another year of scut at a prelim surgical dog) ( mdparadise spin= accept a highly coveted and highly clinically intense position )

Not offered a categorical position. take a job running northern blots with grad students from China ( mdparadise spin= take a year off from the intense clinical training you quit your job at Mayo and traveled across the country to begin to accept a prestigious research position in Cleveland )

:hicup: kool aid. yummy! Thanks Reverend Jones!

neilc
12-26-2005, 12:10 AM
i don't go there. but i did look into it when i was searching for schools.

you can say what you want, but reading what you've said so far it's easy to see through your facade of "caring".

and what exactly do you think would show that i care? not spending my own time on here posting what i have learned? sitting back and ignoring the crap that is often posted? letting newbies be mislead by all the claims that the school makes?

do you think the GMC would all of the sudden be 100% behind the school if all the "bashers" would shut up? do you think the state licensing boards would have less questions? do you think that all of the sudden the school would cease to have issues, and become a shining beacon of medical education?

i think you mistake "caring" for blindly supporting. and, i think you are targetting the messenger instead of the message. if the school makes it through these questions with the GMC, and all the others surrounding it, i will be the first on here to support it. in the meantime, i highly recommend extreme caution and due dilligence before attending this school.

so, show me how this is not caring, i would love to see it.

neilc
12-26-2005, 12:15 AM
translation and speculation

match ( probably scramble ) into a prelim surgery slot at mayo. ( spend a year getting scutted to death as a prelim PGY-1 )

Not offered a categorical position. (Mdparadise spin=Leave mayo for enhanced superior clinical training in TN)

Scramble into another prelim slot in Tennessee. (Doing another year of scut at a prelim surgical dog) ( mdparadise spin= accept a highly coveted and highly clinically intense position )

Not offered a categorical position. take a job running northern blots with grad students from China ( mdparadise spin= take a year off from the intense clinical training you quit your job at Mayo and traveled across the country to begin to accept a prestigious research position in Cleveland )

:hicup: kool aid. yummy! Thanks Reverend Jones!

yep, it blows my mind. the st chris folks do have a tendency to try to manufacture news. then, when the news can't live up to the hype, they look double foolish.

oh well, whaddya gonna do. it is apparently too much to ask for them to simply state reality without the editorials. and, that is what has got them into trouble since the begining. i would hope that med studs and med stud educators would be quicker to learn than that....

neilc
12-26-2005, 12:31 AM
no you don't neilc. it's become obvious that you just repeat that catchphrase over and over but you don't really wish the best for the students.

you just like rubbing it in a passive-aggressive way.

i just thought of a better example to explain my feelings on the matter. i look at it as i do toward my patients that smoke. i know that some of them smoke knowing full well the dangers. there are also quite a few that misunderstand the true danger of smoking. however, they all smoke. based on my experience and education, i try to make the dangers of smoking clear. i encourage those who do not smoke to avoid it, and i try to educate them about the dangers.

so, do i not care about my patients who smoke? no, i care a lot. but, i don't just stand by and say "hey, you are making a great choice, and you probablly won't get lung CA". they are certainly free to make up their own mind about it, and if they do wind up ill because of the choice they made, i will try to help them overcome it.

you may not like the way i do it, and that is fine with me. but, this is something that i believe in, and i do it only because i care.

(btw, to take the above analogy further, the st chris admin and a select few students are the tobacco industry...manipulating and lying behind the scenes in order to suck as much money as they can before the well runs dry...but, that is another story, eh.)

FLK
12-26-2005, 12:32 AM
yep, it blows my mind. the st chris folks do have a tendency to try to manufacture news. then, when the news can't live up to the hype, they look double foolish.

oh well, whaddya gonna do. it is apparently too much to ask for them to simply state reality without the editorials. and, that is what has got them into trouble since the begining. i would hope that med studs and med stud educators would be quicker to learn than that....

for all I know the guy is licensed and on faculty somewhere, but given the history of the place I'll wait to read about it.
I get a kick out of checking back in and living the soap opera. the Good to go saga, the wandering campus. the cambridge photos here today, gone tomorrow. the mental image of the senegalese ambassador taking the train to Luton and having a pint with 3 students and reading to them in French his prepared statement that Dakar is good to go.

sometimes I think it's all a comedy series, but it's actually happening.
hours of entertainment that's for sure

medox
12-26-2005, 12:34 AM
and what exactly do you think would show that i care? not spending my own time on here posting what i have learned? sitting back and ignoring the crap that is often posted? letting newbies be mislead by all the claims that the school makes?

do you think the GMC would all of the sudden be 100% behind the school if all the "bashers" would shut up? do you think the state licensing boards would have less questions? do you think that all of the sudden the school would cease to have issues, and become a shining beacon of medical education?

i think you mistake "caring" for blindly supporting. and, i think you are targetting the messenger instead of the message. if the school makes it through these questions with the GMC, and all the others surrounding it, i will be the first on here to support it. in the meantime, i highly recommend extreme caution and due dilligence before attending this school.

so, show me how this is not caring, i would love to see it.


no need for you to get all defensive. it's what i think from reading what you and other people have been saying.

as i said, you can repeat over and over about how you "care" but it's obvious that it's just a cover. maybe some of the more naive people will buy it, but i see through it. you might be the first to show your "support" if the schools makes it through all this, but you'd also be one of the first to gloat and say i told you so if it doesn't.

empathy
12-26-2005, 08:25 AM
This school has graduates from 1998 -- we can all read between the lines on that one -- and we all know what comes next.

bts4202
12-26-2005, 09:23 AM
Empathy, please tell us all who graduated in 1998? I am unaware of anyone. If you are referring to MD Paradise, It clearly says "attended" st chris in 1998, not "graduated from".

Reagrding MO. He is currently doing his Chief Resident year (PGY-5) at Univ. of Tenn. http://gsm.utmck.edu/surgery/current_residents.cfm

He did an elective research year after his PGY-2 year to help aid him in getting a competitive surgeyr fellowship (don't remember which one honestly), you can read about that part of the curriculum here: http://gsm.utmck.edu/surgery/curriculum.htm

He is doing surgery, so being able to actually perform the surgeries early on in your residency was important to him. At Mayo, he complained that people didn't really learn how to perform surgery till their 3rd year due to all the heirarchy. Both Mayo and UTenn are great programs for surgery. So, while Mayo may be more prestigious, he felt he would get better training elsewhere. One of the things you may learn with some experience is that even though a place has a great name and is well known, some people may still dislike it.

neilc
12-26-2005, 09:33 AM
no need for you to get all defensive. it's what i think from reading what you and other people have been saying.

as i said, you can repeat over and over about how you "care" but it's obvious that it's just a cover. maybe some of the more naive people will buy it, but i see through it. you might be the first to show your "support" if the schools makes it through all this, but you'd also be one of the first to gloat and say i told you so if it doesn't.

nope, not defensive. just clarifying my position so you could have more information to develop a more accurate opinion. but, you choose to remain mistaken. no problem to me.

neilc
12-26-2005, 09:34 AM
Empathy, please tell us all who graduated in 1998? I am unaware of anyone. If you are referring to MD Paradise, you may need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills. It clearly says "attended" st chris in 1998, not "graduated from".

Reagrding MO. He is currently doing his Chief Resident year (PGY-5) at Univ. of Tenn. http://gsm.utmck.edu/surgery/current_residents.cfm

He did an elective research year during his PGY-2 year to help aid him in getting a competitive surgeyr fellowship (don't remember which one honestly), you can read about that part of the curriculum here: http://gsm.utmck.edu/surgery/curriculum.htm

He is doing surgery, so being able to actually perform the surgeries early on in your residency was important to him. At Mayo, he complained that people didn't really learn how to perform surgery till their 3rd year due to all the heirarchy. Both Mayo and UTenn are great programs for surgery. So, while Mayo may be more prestigious, he felt he would get better training elsewhere. One of the things you may learn with some experience is that even though a place has a great name and is well known, some people may still dislike it.

1. was he cagegorical or prelim at Mayo?
2. why on earth is he not licensed yet?

teratos
12-26-2005, 09:36 AM
1. was he cagegorical or prelim at Mayo?
2. why on earth is he not licensed yet?

it is not at all unusual to not have a license until you are finished residency. There is really no need for it. Getting licensed is often expensive ($800 for 2 years in MD).

neilc
12-26-2005, 09:50 AM
it is not at all unusual to not have a license until you are finished residency. There is really no need for it. Getting licensed is often expensive ($800 for 2 years in MD).
it is quite unusual at places i have been. in fact, several programs require it. in a lot of the programs i interviewed with, it was required to get to 3rd year. granted, these were CA programs, and it may be a state law to have license by third year.

without a license, the chief resident must be running around to get co-sigs on Rxs written that will be filled outside the hospital! that is a lot of Rx's at the clinic and for discharge. so, maybe it is regional, but i sure haven't seen it.

neilc
12-26-2005, 09:57 AM
well, i just checked the other 5th years at u tenn, and it looks like they don't have licenses either, so i guess it is a regional thing. my bad.

empathy
12-26-2005, 10:00 AM
I'm not talking about the guy they use to advertise on the MD Paradise site. I'm talking about the guy the BBC questioned B. about. Listen again to the Five Live Broadcast - Quack Qualifications. How did he rec' a degree in 1998 - the school had only just opened.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/fivelivereport.shtml

medox
12-26-2005, 10:07 AM
nope, not defensive. just clarifying my position so you could have more information to develop a more accurate opinion. but, you choose to remain mistaken. no problem to me.

you've more than "clarified" your position with all your previous posts on this forum, you're now trying to rationalize it.

azskeptic
12-26-2005, 10:14 AM
I am originally from Missouri. There are people who live down by the river and every few springs or so it floods. You see them on television being interviewed saying "I'm going to rebuild because I like it here". I don't believe that there can be any present students at SC who aren't aware of the risks they are facing after 2 end of the year GMC things happening and the information that has been widely posted here and on student doctor,BBC,etc. as to questions people have. Hopefully, we'll have a ruling form the GMC in the future,though one never knows if it is final since information appears to pop up. It just goes with the territory of taking risk. You just have to watch for the creek rising all the time.

bts4202
12-26-2005, 10:21 AM
I'm not talking about the guy they use to advertise on the MD Paradise site. I'm talking about the guy the BBC questioned B. about. Listen again to the Five Live Broadcast - Quack Qualifications. How did he rec' a degree in 1998 - the school had only just opened.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/fivelivereport.shtml

Actually, I just listened to it, the report said "the first batch of St. Christopher's graduates in 2001".

teratos
12-26-2005, 10:24 AM
it is quite unusual at places i have been. in fact, several programs require it. in a lot of the programs i interviewed with, it was required to get to 3rd year. granted, these were CA programs, and it may be a state law to have license by third year.

without a license, the chief resident must be running around to get co-sigs on Rxs written that will be filled outside the hospital! that is a lot of Rx's at the clinic and for discharge. so, maybe it is regional, but i sure haven't seen it.

When you are a resident you have a training license. You can write prescriptions for controlled substances outside of the hospital using the hospital DEA number, even your first day of internship. Nobody ever cosigned my prescriptions. Chief residency is different than residency. The typical Chief resident is someone asked to stay an extra year to handle administrative/educational aspects of the residency program. They do need a license since they are overseeing residents. They function at the attending level in many respects. G

neilc
12-26-2005, 11:30 AM
well, there are a lot of programs where the final year is called the "chief" year. that is more what i was refering too. anyhow, not really too pertinent, since i was wrong about how it is in tenn. in ca it is a different animal, that is more what i was used to. my bad, sorry.

empathy
12-26-2005, 11:46 AM
We'll all listen to it again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/progra...vereport.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/fivelivereport.shtml)

microphage
12-26-2005, 12:18 PM
well, there are a lot of programs where the final year is called the "chief" year. that is more what i was refering too. anyhow, not really too pertinent, since i was wrong about how it is in tenn. in ca it is a different animal, that is more what i was used to. my bad, sorry.

yeah, at Kern; IM residents can do a PGY-3 and a chief residency in the same year but that's double duty for ya.

studentMD
12-26-2005, 12:45 PM
well, i just checked the other 5th years at u tenn, and it looks like they don't have licenses either, so i guess it is a regional thing. my bad.
as well as being regional, i think its also program specific.. my programs dept get on residents cases as soon as they are eligible to get their own license and their own DEA number.. whereas other depts dont care so much and dont push it.. so yeah i think it just varies across the country..

teratos
12-26-2005, 02:37 PM
yeah, at Kern; IM residents can do a PGY-3 and a chief residency in the same year but that's double duty for ya.

Yes, I was a 3rd year chief resident.

Tritonesub
12-26-2005, 08:57 PM
True. This is one of the reasons (amongst others) that i left my program. It was in one of the states that does not issue a 'training license' and therefore you spend your three years running around like a medical student getting things signed off on.

One of the things to consider when picking where to do your residency! You would not believe the time you save (and getting home early) when you are not the 'middle man'.

FLK
12-26-2005, 10:31 PM
Empathy, please tell us all who graduated in 1998? I am unaware of anyone. If you are referring to MD Paradise, you may need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills. It clearly says "attended" st chris in 1998, not "graduated from".

Reagrding MO. He is currently doing his Chief Resident year (PGY-5) at Univ. of Tenn. http://gsm.utmck.edu/surgery/current_residents.cfm

He did an elective research year after his PGY-2 year to help aid him in getting a competitive surgeyr fellowship (don't remember which one honestly), you can read about that part of the curriculum here: http://gsm.utmck.edu/surgery/curriculum.htm

He is doing surgery, so being able to actually perform the surgeries early on in your residency was important to him. At Mayo, he complained that people didn't really learn how to perform surgery till their 3rd year due to all the heirarchy. Both Mayo and UTenn are great programs for surgery. So, while Mayo may be more prestigious, he felt he would get better training elsewhere. One of the things you may learn with some experience is that even though a place has a great name and is well known, some people may still dislike it.

did hte chief attend during the scary years before the puppet charter get sorted out?

FLK
12-26-2005, 10:39 PM
you've more than "clarified" your position with all your previous posts on this forum, you're now trying to rationalize it.
Neil fakes sympathy.

At least I'll admit that I hope every St Chris cheerleader of the last decade bites the dust and gets screwed. ( that goes for the rest of those that "hope for the best"-----WE DON'T. Every other med school: Yes. You : HELL NO They will all disagree with this statement bu they are sll so PASSIVE AGRESSIVE. Read their posts and it's obvious that they crave your demise and pretend to "hope for the best"
Bull Turd!

My dream is to see the Cheerleaders ( ****,**** etc ) all at the local restaurant accepting my keys while parking my Navigator( Of course with their history I'll lock my glovebox, lest my i-pod be "good to go"...........to the local pawn shop)

I hope to buy Neil a cocktail at that point if he gives up his fake empathy for these folks. Neil at least be honest, you crave these peples' failures. Just admit it. It might be one of the few honest posts on the SC forum
Embrace it

Learn it. Love it. Live it.
.http://www.jacksonhole.com/images/photos/spicoli.jpg

Tritonesub
12-26-2005, 10:45 PM
I believe MO was one the first students who transferred from a carribean med school. In the first year the school opened they had 1st, 3rd and 4th year students... the 3rd and 4th years of course being transfers. You cant financially operate a medical school with empty seats. The first few years had alot of transfers.... nowdays most of the students have been there since day one....
.. Its called running a business ... just like every other medical school on the planet.

neilc
12-26-2005, 10:45 PM
hey, FLK. i gotta admit, you made me laugh.

i don't feel sympathy for the students that are blatant admin lackeys, sure. no problem admitting that. and i certainly feel no sympathy for the admin of this dodgy school.

but, the poor suckers that bought what st chris is selling. yep. got a lot of sympathy for them. only because a few short years ago it could just have easily been me.

neilc
12-26-2005, 10:46 PM
hey, and FLK, why don't you start the cocktail buyin trend by anteing up one yourself. i am always thirsty:)

Tritonesub
12-27-2005, 01:08 AM
GMC welcomes proposed reforms to Medical Act enabling fairer registration for international medical graduates

From : 6 December 2005 To : 6 December 2005
Category : Press Release
Info :
The General Medical Council has today (6th December) welcomed the outcome of its work with the Department of Health to change the Medical Act, which will see the next major part of the on going process of reform.



The government is consulting on changes the GMC has requested to the Medical Act, which will affect the system of registration. The proposals for change will modernise the way that doctors are able to join the register, and will bring the registration process in line with developments in regulation. The proposals are aimed at ensuring that the principles for granting registration to UK qualified doctors and international medical graduates should be the same, with any differences being objectively justified.



The main changes are:



The abolition of limited registration for international medical graduates, and the eradication of the link between registration and employment
The requirement for all applicants to satisfy the GMC, at the point of registration, that their fitness to practise is not impaired
The GMC to have the power to vary the timing of revalidation for individual doctors
GMC President, Sir Graeme Catto, said “We are committed to ensuring that all doctors that wish to practice medicine in the UK are able to gain registration in a simple and straightforward way. We will end up with a simplified and efficient registration structure which combines fairness for international medical graduates with effective patient protection. I am confident that the proposed reforms are relevant and important.”



Mr Stephen Brearley, GMC Council Member and chairman of the GMC’s Registration Committee, said “I am pleased that the government has responded so positively to our recommendations. The NHS in the UK relies heavily on the contribution of international medical graduates . The new registration structures that we have proposed will provide them with greater career certainty and flexibility. It will also remove the source of frustrations for those who previously found themselves caught in the catch 22 of being unable to get on the register without a job and being unable to secure a job without being on the register.”



The proposals are being consulted on by the Department of Health as part of a draft Section 60 Order to amend the Medical Act, which closes on 31 January 2006. If they are agreed, the changes will be made and endorsed by the Privy Council in mid 2006.

Tritonesub
12-27-2005, 01:10 AM
In other words will be decided on a case by case basis soon.... no matter where you went to school

diogenes
12-27-2005, 01:20 AM
[quote=Tritonesub]
..............Mr Stephen Brearley, GMC Council Member and chairman of the GMC’s Registration Committee, said “I am pleased that the government has responded so positively to our recommendations. The NHS in the UK relies heavily on the contribution of international medical graduates . The new registration structures that we have proposed will provide them with greater career certainty and flexibility. It will also remove the source of frustrations for those who previously found themselves caught in the catch 22 of being unable to get on the register without a job and being unable to secure a job without being on the register.” ............
I may be wrong but I don't think this has anything to do with review on a case by case basis.
The main thrust is, as highlighted above, an attempt to eliminate an unfair bind that IMG's find themselves in.

Keyop
12-27-2005, 03:10 AM
I'm not talking about the guy they use to advertise on the MD Paradise site. I'm talking about the guy the BBC questioned B. about. Listen again to the Five Live Broadcast - Quack Qualifications. How did he rec' a degree in 1998 - the school had only just opened.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/fivelivereport.shtml


Yeah, that confused me. The guy was registered with the GMC as graduating in 1998 (was it 1998?) yet the school denies they had any graduates before 2003. I would have thought a new school would remember the year they had their first graduate. This was one of the main things that made me think SC was shady.

Also, with all the transfers coming in ... were they from properly inspected schools, or was the only check that they were WHO listed? Of course, we all know the WHO listing is very, very hit and miss depending on the country of registration.

OLDPRO
12-27-2005, 04:42 AM
I have sent out multiple PMs, Names are not allowed to be posted per Terms of Service here on VMD to everyone please adhear to this.
Edit out all names in posts and articles to be posted and has been posted thank you.

empathy
12-27-2005, 11:56 AM
Yes and St. Chris didn't rec'd their WHO Listing until 2000.

http://www.who.int/en/


Yeah, that confused me. The guy was registered with the GMC as graduating in 1998 (was it 1998?) yet the school denies they had any graduates before 2003. I would have thought a new school would remember the year they had their first graduate. This was one of the main things that made me think SC was shady.

Also, with all the transfers coming in ... were they from properly inspected schools, or was the only check that they were WHO listed? Of course, we all know the WHO listing is very, very hit and miss depending on the country of registration.

bts4202
12-27-2005, 01:53 PM
Yeah, that confused me. The guy was registered with the GMC as graduating in 1998 (was it 1998?) yet the school denies they had any graduates before 2003. I would have thought a new school would remember the year they had their first graduate. This was one of the main things that made me think SC was shady.

Also, with all the transfers coming in ... were they from properly inspected schools, or was the only check that they were WHO listed? Of course, we all know the WHO listing is very, very hit and miss depending on the country of registration.

The 5 live people said that in their investigating, the first graduating class was 2001. His degree, that they supposedly looked at and said "it doesn't say Senegal", was from 2001 by their own reporting.

empathy
12-27-2005, 05:46 PM
BTS answered any and all questions regarding the Senegal Campus on the Student Doctor Network. He/She really did his/her homework. I'm impressed - great job BTS!

Going on vacation. Good Luck Everyone. I hope the GMC rules in the students favor!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2904390#post2904390

azskeptic
12-27-2005, 08:57 PM
Has it ever occurred to anyone that a medical school should have boundaries? I.e. a student shouldn't be the one explaining the actions of the school; the school should be explaining itself. In fact a student shouldn't have to be considering if issues of charter,WHO recognition, or whether a school is squatting are there. A school representative should be dealing with these issues and with the authorities; not a 4th year MS. There are boundary issues at play here: how can a school supervise someone who is serving as their spokesperson all over the internet and to govt agencies? It isn't fair to BTS. He has taken alot of fire for the missteps that have occurred on his watch.

blythplace
12-27-2005, 09:29 PM
man , you've ALWAYS got an angle as to how things just aren't good. This is a STUDENT forum right? So it is ok for STUDENTS to give the info they know right? Last time i checked this board (including ross, SGU , etc) doesn't have just administrators coming online to answer questions.
Skeptic- BTS gave you some info- give him some credit rather than still looking to find fault. All i'm saying is give credit where credit is due.

azskeptic
12-27-2005, 09:36 PM
man , you've ALWAYS got an angle as to how things just aren't good. This is a STUDENT forum right? So it is ok for STUDENTS to give the info they know right? Last time i checked this board (including ross, SGU , etc) doesn't have just administrators coming online to answer questions.
Skeptic- BTS gave you some info- give him some credit rather than still looking to find fault. All i'm saying is give credit where credit is due. Look, not downplaying BTS or Whuds (after him) in trying to help their school. Only saying that it is different to see students answering questions,contacting govt. agencies,etc. Isn't that what you pay your school for? When I went to the University of Missouri I can assure you that the school wouldn't leave important issues to we students to deal with,even on a discussion forum if there had been one in those days. I do not believe BTS or Whuds have intentionally tried to mislead anyone; they have only given what they were told. When it has turned out incorrect, they have received the blame by some but the blame should actually be SC's.

bts4202
12-27-2005, 09:39 PM
Has it ever occurred to anyone that a medical school should have boundaries? I.e. a student shouldn't be the one explaining the actions of the school; the school should be explaining itself. In fact a student shouldn't have to be considering if issues of charter,WHO recognition, or whether a school is squatting are there. A school representative should be dealing with these issues and with the authorities; not a 4th year MS. There are boundary issues at play here: how can a school supervise someone who is serving as their spokesperson all over the internet and to govt agencies? It isn't fair to BTS. He has taken alot of fire for the missteps that have occurred on his watch.

I am not the official representative of anything. I volunteer to discuss issues on this board. Unfortunately, I find myself in a position to have to defend my school from the many trolls who plague this forum. When I do not know information needed to continue any specific discussion, I try to find out so that my fellow students can be well informed.

My main motivation to be here however, is to help out the new and prospective students coming to st chris. As each new semester begins, I get literally dozens of emails per week asking for help, advice, and sometimes just asking for a friend at a new school. Most of these questions used to be on the board itself, but with a lot of the trolling, many students just do not feel comfortable asking there questions publicly. I am more than happy to help those that I can.

The school itself has no reason to have anything to do with this board. While some people may feel that the internet (and maybe this website in particular) comprise everything important in the world, the school does not. The admin spends their time dealing with people in the real world and not on internet forums. They have spent the past week or two meeting with the GMC, Senegalese ambassador, agents of the ministry of education of senegal, and many other important people in person. I, personally, would much rather have them doing that than piddling around on an internet forum.

TAFKA
12-27-2005, 09:44 PM
edited to remove text

neilc
12-27-2005, 09:51 PM
I am not the official representative of anything. I volunteer to discuss issues on this board. Unfortunately, I find myself in a position to have to defend my school from the many trolls who plague this forum. When I do not know information needed to continue any specific discussion, I try to find out so that my fellow students can be well informed.

My main motivation to be here however, is to help out the new and prospective students coming to st chris. As each new semester begins, I get literally dozens of emails per week asking for help, advice, and sometimes just asking for a friend at a new school. Most of these questions used to be on the board itself, but with a lot of the trolling, many students just do not feel comfortable asking there questions publicly. I am more than happy to help those that I can.

The school itself has no reason to have anything to do with this board. While some people may feel that the internet (and maybe this website in particular) comprise everything important in the world, the school does not. The admin spends their time dealing with people in the real world and not on internet forums. They have spent the past week or two meeting with the GMC, Senegalese ambassador, agents of the ministry of education of senegal, and many other important people in person. I, personally, would much rather have them doing that than piddling around on an internet forum.

1. you don't have to defend your school from "trolling". in case you haven't noticed, there are serious and legit concerns about st chris. these are both new (ie GMC) and old (ie potential licensing issues ). the "trolls" don't create these issues, they are already there.
2. i agree that the admin have bigger fish to fry right now, then coming on these boards. but, if you compare SMU with st chris, i think you will see what benefits a strong official voice can have, especially if they answer questions in a forthright manner. again, SMU does not have many of the potential issues that st chris has, but it would have greatly helped if there was a reasonably trustworthy source of official information. you wouldn't be stuck "defending" the school, and you wouldn't be in the position you often are.

neilc
12-27-2005, 09:54 PM
what you don't get, skeptic, is that to us VMD isn't a career/hobby/wife/airplane/egg or whatever it is to you... it's like a pub where we hang out and talk about meaningless crap as a quick break from our REAL lives... it's not our fault that some people feel the need to butt into the conversation and make it into something more than it is so they can feel like a part of the crowd.

a lot of people come here looking for good info. skeptic does a good job of helping people concentrate on the very real issues.

and, i really don't think many of us want to be part of the st chris crowd.

TAFKA
12-27-2005, 10:00 PM
edited to remove text

neilc
12-27-2005, 10:07 PM
maybe i'm off the mark... i was just basing that on the fact that you spend more time on the st chris forum than i spend with my family AND at work...

it is sad that you spend so little time with your family. i check in a few times a day, for a few minutes each time.

microphage
12-27-2005, 11:20 PM
It isn't fair to BTS. He has taken alot of fire for the missteps that have occurred on his watch.

yeah but we enjoy making fun of bts... its one of our reasons for coming to the SC forum. ;) ;) ;)

btw... the rep was mtt before and look how that turned out.

azskeptic
12-27-2005, 11:37 PM
it is sad that you spend so little time with your family. i check in a few times a day, for a few minutes each time. Balancing time,family,hobbies,is indeed an art form. I am lucky to work from a home office so I am able to be with my family alot. Reference to the information, if it doesn't apply to you obviously disregard it. So far the information I've supplied has been helpful to some and much of what I have predicted seems to come to pass so I do pick up some trends fairly successfully.

CorporateRaider
12-28-2005, 08:18 AM
bts4202: SNIPPET; defend my school from the many trolls who plague this forum. ...........SNIPPET: but with a lot of the trolling.....................


corporateraider: How many trolls? Who are the trolls? :confused:

OLDPRO
12-28-2005, 09:37 AM
bts4202: SNIPPET; defend my school from the many trolls who plague this forum. ...........SNIPPET: but with a lot of the trolling.....................


corporateraider: How many trolls? Who are the trolls? :confused:
The post is on the line anyone names anyone as a troll will get an alert since it's a violation as an insult, many of you know this. Because this thread has stopped being an new info I'm locking it to prevent answers to this above question.

mdimg
12-29-2005, 08:41 PM
I am worried about this GMC investigation and the future of St. Chris,

my question,

what will happen to current students in a residecny program in the USA ?

I see former Kigezi students are still in residency and I believe licensed as well /

Any honest opinions please

maximillian genossa
12-29-2005, 08:46 PM
The GMC is focusing their attention on the charter that St. Chris has in Senegal and the acceptability of their degrees from students who complete their entire program in the Luton campus and not in the Senegal campus. A valid question is, why if the school has a valid charter in Senegal uses the UK as their main campus? Ultimately, St. Chris is a SENEGALESE school since it is chartered in Senegal, not the UK. There are question pertaining the existence of the charter and the dates the charter has been in existence.

What will happen to those students in the US is open for debate. Right now the status quo prevails. US students will be affected is IF Senegal pull the plug on the charter or if the US. They may also be affected if the US decides to follow suit on whatever decision the GMC makes. The key element here for US STUDENTS is THE CHARTER.

This subject is open for speculation left and right.

If you have more questions or need clarification, PM me.

The problem with Kigezi was a totally different monster, that school , apparently shut down due to financial difficulties, not charter issues which is a different dynamic for those students affected, it is not that the school shut down because it was non-existent or it was operating fraudulently.

Max


I am worried about this GMC investigation and the future of St. Chris,
my question,
what will happen to current students in a residecny program in the USA ?
I see former Kigezi students are still in residency and I believe licensed as well /
Any honest opinions please

druzy
12-29-2005, 10:38 PM
im a student at st chris starting in 1 week, in the 6 year Md program for jan 06...it took my forever to let me parents to agree to this program cuz ive already been at st. johns university in new york for a year and a half, and now this gmc crap happens, what does this xactly mean for me as a student wanting to practice medicine in the United States, furthermore, what is going on with this SCCM not being involved wit the cleveland clinic anymore??!? thanks in advance to anywun who answers any of my concerns!

ni203
12-30-2005, 02:37 AM
Hi so far from what I have known is that there are some investigations with SCCM, and the GMC will not accept the degree granted by the SCCM if SCCM is suspended by GMC. And if GMC do in fact suspend SCCM then the same MIGHT happen in US.

So if you want more information please do call GMC, and it would be safer for you to defer your acceptance letter until things are strengthen out in SCCM. Going to SCCM right now seems little risky. You don’t want to rush into a decision when u will be spending $200,000USD and 6 yrs of you hard work.

teratos
12-30-2005, 05:12 AM
im a student at st chris starting in 1 week, in the 6 year Md program for jan 06...it took my forever to let me parents to agree to this program cuz ive already been at st. johns university in new york for a year and a half, and now this gmc crap happens, what does this xactly mean for me as a student wanting to practice medicine in the United States, furthermore, what is going on with this SCCM not being involved wit the cleveland clinic anymore??!? thanks in advance to anywun who answers any of my concerns!
There are no answers now. Your safest bet is to defer for the time being. Wait and see what the GMC says. G

fast12
01-01-2006, 11:29 AM
Buddy, you would have to be out of your mind to go to Saint Christophers at this time. I am a 4th semester student, adn trying to transfer out, but this school wont give me my transcript. Very very tactical play on their part. " the lady who does transcripts is on vacation"

butters
01-01-2006, 11:54 AM
Buddy, you would have to be out of your mind to go to Saint Christophers at this time. I am a 4th semester student, adn trying to transfer out, but this school wont give me my transcript. Very very tactical play on their part. " the lady who does transcripts is on vacation"

oh man...that really sucks.

I hope everything works out for the best for all St. Chris students.

For druzy, like everyone else said, u really should wait. It really is too big a risk for you to spend 6 years and so much money at this point. Try looking into other schools. If you start at St. Chris now, it may be really difficult to get out later. And it will always be on your record that u did attend St. Chris.

dulces
01-01-2006, 01:45 PM
Fast,

I just finished up first semester and got a similar answer regarding transcripts. I'm kind of at a loss about what to do. Most people I talk to are hopeful about the situation (meaning students already at the school), but I have a really uneasy feeling about this situation and dont really get why everyone else is so calm.

Speedracer
01-01-2006, 04:15 PM
Just wondering if there are any new updates on GMC ruling.

Supposedly, a ruling will be forthcoming, whilst so many St. Chris students await anxiously on the decision, right?

If anyone finds out about anything, please let the TRUTH be known!

azskeptic
01-01-2006, 04:22 PM
Just wondering if there are any new updates on GMC ruling.

Supposedly, a ruling will be forthcoming, whilst so many St. Chris students await anxiously on the decision, right?

If anyone finds out about anything, please let the TRUTH be known! The website will exhibit it before anyone else will know anything. Since it is an investigation they obviously will say nothing to anyone until they have made a ruling. There is no guarantee or time schedule when this will happen. The website to check is at:

http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp

Reference refusal to provide transcripts you have some protection in the UK. Check with:

http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/about.shtml

AUCMD2006
01-01-2006, 04:40 PM
it's not unusual for someone to take vacation during christmas/new year is it? AUC fin aid dept is closed from dec 23-jan 2 does that mean they are refusing to relase funds? how long ago did you ask for the transcripts?..i mean if it was a month ago that is different

empathy
01-01-2006, 04:44 PM
The GMC is still investigating. If you listen to the Five Live Report 'Quack Qualifications' it will tell you everything anyone knows for sure. These are the only facts anyone has right now. Crazy rumors have come out of SC. Such as the GMC is going to make St. Chris a model for offshore schools in the future, St. Chris is suing the BBC for their report, and the GMC was flooded with so many student calls that they changed their mind about not recognizing SC degrees. Nothing anyone can do but wait and see. Contact the GMC for assistance in the mean time. Make sure you guys let them know you are having trouble getting your transcripts. If it were me I'd hold off on spending any money until I could be certain about my investment.

http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/fivelivereport.shtml

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html




Just wondering if there are any new updates on GMC ruling.

Supposedly, a ruling will be forthcoming, whilst so many St. Chris students await anxiously on the decision, right?

If anyone finds out about anything, please let the TRUTH be known!

azskeptic
01-01-2006, 04:47 PM
it's not unusual for someone to take vacation during christmas/new year is it? AUC fin aid dept is closed from dec 23-jan 2 does that mean they are refusing to relase funds? how long ago did you ask for the transcripts?..i mean if it was a month ago that is different you are right there RROD. If it is just a holiday thing, that is understandable. Apparently there are also funds involved since people pay in advance for tuition. How is the refunding process going for folks who have asked?

bts4202
01-01-2006, 07:39 PM
Christmas/New years is not an usual time for someone to take a holiday. Come on people, lets not get out of hand here.

empathy
01-01-2006, 08:56 PM
I got an email from a student two weeks ago and one of his complaints against St. Chris was that students who wanted to transfer were having a hard time getting their transcripts. We'll see how in goes this week and the next. Here's the link Az provided for you guys earlier.

Reference refusal to provide transcripts you have some protection in the UK. Check with:

http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/about.shtml.

Oregon will also be happy to help.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

Also, please don't listen to rumors. If you have questions regarding the investigation contact the GMC directly.

http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/unde...uate_level.asp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4410020.stm

Ramandnb
01-05-2006, 07:54 AM
So, do we think St Christopher's will be cleared by the GMC, how long will they take to reach the decision?

Is the teaching there really that bad?

If i apply there for the 2006 class as a brit student, will ii be wasting my time? It would help a great deal not to go abroad.

stephew
01-05-2006, 08:44 AM
without answering your reasonable questions directly, I think you should rethink your approach to med school. Guess work and the path of least resistence for something this huge is a bad way to go. this will effect *the rest of your life*. If there are reasonable doubts about a program you should not let a couple of eyars of time abroad stop you from making a decision which may make your career/life much happier over the long term.

empathy
01-05-2006, 08:53 AM
The GMC has asked current students and students considering this school to contact them directly. Before you proceed -- you should CALL THE GMC.


So, do we think St Christopher's will be cleared by the GMC, how long will they take to reach the decision?

Is the teaching there really that bad?

If i apply there for the 2006 class as a brit student, will ii be wasting my time? It would help a great deal not to go abroad.

empathy
01-05-2006, 08:58 AM
The GMC has asked current students and students considering this school to contact them directly. Before you proceed -- you should CALL THE GMC.


So, do we think St Christopher's will be cleared by the GMC, how long will they take to reach the decision?

Is the teaching there really that bad?

If i apply there for the 2006 class as a brit student, will ii be wasting my time? It would help a great deal not to go abroad.

bts4202
01-05-2006, 04:39 PM
So, do we think St Christopher's will be cleared by the GMC, how long will they take to reach the decision?

Is the teaching there really that bad?

If i apply there for the 2006 class as a brit student, will ii be wasting my time? It would help a great deal not to go abroad.

Most people involved believe that we will be cleared, but no one really knows. The prime ministers office (of senegal) has gotten involved as has the department of higher education and the ambassador to england in an effort to support SCCM. The latest word is that a decision should be made sometime in mid january.

If you are supposed to come to SCCM now, then I would defer until a decision has been made. We could all be wrong and the decision could go against us. I wouldn;t risk it.

BTW, none fo this has to do with the teaching at st chris. The teaching there is excellent. This is all political stuff.

teratos
01-05-2006, 04:48 PM
Most people involved believe that we will be cleared, but no one really knows. The prime ministers office (of senegal) has gotten involved as has the department of higher education and the ambassador to england in an effort to support SCCM. The latest word is that a decision should be made sometime in mid january.

If you are supposed to come to SCCM now, then I would defer until a decision has been made. We could all be wrong and the decision could go against us. I wouldn;t risk it.

BTW, none fo this has to do with the teaching at st chris. The teaching there is excellent. This is all political stuff.

Unfortunately, politicians don't care much about the teaching, they only care about the politics. Hopefully, the Senegalese officials can make a difference. G

Keyop
01-07-2006, 04:22 PM
BTW, none fo this has to do with the teaching at st chris. The teaching there is excellent. This is all political stuff.

Be careful who you listen to with regard to the teaching standards at SC. The only people saying 'it's excellent' are those who attend the school. That's not to say it IS bad, but there hasn't been any official check of teaching standards at the school, and this is one of the reasons the GMC is investigating. It's basically passing under the radar of teaching standard tests which apply to established medical schools.

TAFKA
01-07-2006, 04:31 PM
edited to remove text

teratos
01-07-2006, 05:56 PM
I went to both AUC and St. Chris, I scored 99 on the USMLE step 1, and I used to teach the MCAT for Kaplan so, while it's still just my opinion, it's at least an informed one. The teaching at St. Chris is very good and the marginal profs at St. Chris were superior to what were considered the "gems" of AUC...
I suppose England may be more attractive than the Caribbean. Were most of your professors British or American? I am curious now. G

AUCMD2006
01-07-2006, 06:48 PM
I suppose England may be more attractive than the Caribbean. Were most of your professors British or American? I am curious now. G

look at the website most are taught overseas in asia and surrounding areas.

take what tafka has to say about auc carefuly and verify it from other sources. it may very well be that sc has better profs, but this poster has a very good reason to absolutely hate auc....

they were a very good student and didn't fail out so listen to all advice on studying, usmle, etc just double check their view of auc, admin etc bc they did not leave willfully or on good terms and i have no doubt that what happened influences their posts to put anything auc as evil encarnate. auc is not perfect but it's nothing as painted by this poster and no matter what they say SC is no medical utopia...thats st mats

empathy
01-07-2006, 06:50 PM
Teratos you are a super mod - can you bundle all of these GMC threads up into one? There's like 5 or 6 of them now. Each one is the same newbies ask, "Any news on the GMC investigation" and the crowd goes, "call the GMC, G".



I suppose England may be more attractive than the Caribbean. Were most of your professors British or American? I am curious now. G

teratos
01-07-2006, 07:25 PM
OK, they have all been merged. Some things my be out of order, so don't yell at me if some things don't make sense. G

empathy
01-07-2006, 07:33 PM
Teratos please take a look at this thread - it's icky but I don't know tos so it might not be a violation:

http://www.valuemd.com/main-medical-marketplace/78961-aua-now-accepting-st-chris-credits-2.html?posted=1#post358642

Oops, never mind you are already on it.

teratos
01-07-2006, 07:35 PM
Teratos please take a look at this thread - it's icky but I don't know tos so it might not be a violation:

http://www.valuemd.com/main-medical-marketplace/78961-aua-now-accepting-st-chris-credits-2.html?posted=1#post358642
No, it isn't a TOS violation. In the future, please report posts with the "report post" function rather than post a report in another thread. G ;)

empathy
01-07-2006, 07:40 PM
You forgot my, G. G.


No, it isn't a TOS violation. In the future, please report posts with the "report post" function rather than post a report in another thread. ;)

teratos
01-07-2006, 07:41 PM
You forgot my, G. G.

Got it....G

TAFKA
01-08-2006, 12:23 PM
edited to remove text

AUCMD2006
01-08-2006, 06:28 PM
" for med school I preferred having medical text/equipment stores, reliable electricity/plumbing/internet/phone, University-style libraries, and pre-clinical exposure to 1st world hospitals.'

i agree with all except the hospitals. the major draw of sc is living in uk which brings along all the other things he mentioned. although the stuff at auc was more than adequate 95% of the time, when the power diod go out for a few hours or the internet when there was a major storm it was a major pain.

i don't agree that hospital access early on is helpful in any way...what do you know as a 1st-4th semester. i guess if you wanna see how things are aranged in a hospital room, or watch blinking lights and sounds that you have no idea about.

i think the way you guys have it in 5th semester is an advantage over auc. you guys have/had access to cleveland clinic and learned h&p there so after you have the full 4 semesters you guys have a good set up but as far as going to the hospital earlier it just detracts from your real job of learning the basics

teratos
01-08-2006, 07:53 PM
Personally, I know more people who vacation in SXM than in Luton, but for med school I preferred having medical text/equipment stores, reliable electricity/plumbing/internet/phone, University-style libraries, and pre-clinical exposure to 1st world hospitals. As for the profs, I'd say SC's were 1/4 each British, Indian, American, and other (Egyptian, Canadian, Far East Asian, etc...). With only 3-5 courses/semester and some profs teaching 2 different semesters (i.e. clin path to 5th, histo to 2nd), it's not easy to say what the true majority was...

Thanks for the answer. I am interested in such things. G

azskeptic
01-12-2006, 01:31 PM
Was looking back and realized that BTS and I have been talking about UK licensing issues since 2003

http://www.valuemd.com/st-christophers-college-medicine/9604-rules-use-name-university-degrees-england.html

I note that I apparently was right on NJ at the time and foretold that there could be problems with the GMC.

We missed our anniversary, BTS.

empathy
01-12-2006, 02:51 PM
I know you are a volunteer who helps in the prevention of medical school fraud. Do you and BTS know each other? There are students that you find on almost every student site on the internet like BTS and Whuds. Are these student volunteers? I'm new to all of this - how does it work?

azskeptic
01-12-2006, 02:55 PM
I know you are a volunteer who helps in the prevention of medical school fraud. Do you and BTS know each other? There are students that you find on almost every student site on the internet like BTS and Whuds. Are these student volunteers? I'm new to all of this - how does it work? You know, no one knows (this is the internet) but odds are good they are volunteers. Offshore medical schools are interesting animals...often they have students serving roles that normal medical schools have staff doing,such as contacting state boards or regulatory agencies trying to negotiate,etc. It is fascinating stuff.

I've never met BTS or WHUDS. I invited BTS to meet me when I was in London and spoke to some students about my concerns but we didn't meet. Perhaps we'll meet at a board meeting or something in the future; one never knows when their paths will cross.

OLDPRO
01-12-2006, 03:06 PM
I know you are a volunteer who helps in the prevention of medical school fraud. Do you and BTS know each other? There are students that you find on almost every student site on the internet like BTS and Whuds. Are these student volunteers? I'm new to all of this - how does it work?

You know I have not posted one thing since early Dec. On this school, only moderation for the site.

For the very last time, NO I do not work for any school. I have years of medical experience and wanted to represent fellow students at the school. Now I left and I'm at another school in the carib. As far as St. Chris goes I'm nothing. I just volunteer my time to moderate here at VMD.
All the moderators as far as I know are volunteers. I do have interest in keeping some kind of order within the TOS here only.

So, good Luck.

empathy
01-12-2006, 03:10 PM
Whuds, please reread my post I said nothing about about working for the school. I just see you on other sites like Student MD quite a bit. You, BTS, Neil, and Az have debated many issues. I'm sorry if I offended you. I know you no longer go to St. Chris.


You know I have not posted one thing since early Dec. On this school, only moderation for the site.

For the very last time, NO I do not work for any school. I have years of medical experience and wanted to represent fellow students at the school. Now I left and I'm at another school in the carib. As far as St. Chris goes I'm nothing. I just volunteer my time to moderate here at VMD.
All the moderators as far as I know are volunteers. I do have interest in keeping some kind of order within the TOS here only.

So, good Luck.

teratos
01-12-2006, 06:09 PM
You know I have not posted one thing since early Dec. On this school, only moderation for the site.

For the very last time, NO I do not work for any school. I have years of medical experience and wanted to represent fellow students at the school. Now I left and I'm at another school in the carib. As far as St. Chris goes I'm nothing. I just volunteer my time to moderate here at VMD.
All the moderators as far as I know are volunteers. I do have interest in keeping some kind of order within the TOS here only.

So, good Luck.

I'm not a volunteer. I'm forced to do this by my wife, who says I talk too much. G

OLDPRO
01-12-2006, 07:08 PM
Whuds, please reread my post I said nothing about about working for the school. I just see you on other sites like Student MD quite a bit. You, BTS, Neil, and Az have debated many issues. I'm sorry if I offended you. I know you no longer go to St. Chris.

No I'm not offended I did post on other sites awhile ago but have not for awhile. I'm leaving the explanation of St. Chris issues to other's now since I'm not at the school. I tried to answer the issues to the best of my ability as a student. But Moderation here does not require attendance at the school so now I mostly read what's posted and do have an interest at what developes since I have friends there.

That Said Good Luck to everyone at St. Chris.:cool:

Speedracer
01-31-2006, 05:00 PM
St. Chris administration had promised to the students in the U.S. that everything will be resolved with GMC by end of January 2006, and that St. Chris will have full approval of GMC. Well, today is Jan. 31st.

Did anyone hear anything regarding the GMC decision?

microphage
01-31-2006, 05:04 PM
St. Chris administration had promised to the students in the U.S. that everything will be resolved with GMC by end of January 2006, and that St. Chris will have full approval of GMC. Well, today is Jan. 31st.

Did anyone hear anything regarding the GMC decision?

Well, in England, they are even close to end of Jan 31st... add its like 11 pm over there. :evil:

maximillian genossa
01-31-2006, 05:51 PM
As far as I know St. Chris ADMIN can't promise jack because the investigation is not up to them but to the GMC.

Has the GMC ruled? No. therefore arguing over this is totally futile. Just wait for the GMC.

I thought this thread was locked.







Well, in England, they are even close to end of Jan 31st... add its like 11 pm over there. :evil:

teratos
01-31-2006, 09:56 PM
Well, in England, they are even close to end of Jan 31st... add its like 11 pm over there. :evil:

DO they use the same calander? I thought they used the metric system. G

Miklos
02-01-2006, 01:48 AM
I thought they used the metric system. G

Well, the EU is trying to force it upon them. This is a sore point among many Brits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4661874.stm







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