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azskeptic
09-09-2003, 09:48 PM
I am very interested in hearing from the DC's on this board how the transition is into medical school. It would appear that there are quite a few on this list that are chiropractors..perhaps some with longer periods of time out of school than others. I was telling a chiropractor friend of mine that many of you are making the leap but he seemed reluctant..he has been out of school for 12 years. Just curious.......and do you intend to continue to use your chiropractic training/scope of practice after you are licensed also as MD's?

dsfx
09-10-2003, 03:38 PM
I have some questions for you, You tend to spend alot of time on these forums,critizing chiropractors, dentists , nurses, podiatrists and PA's. What type a training do you have? What makes your opinions better then the average individual on the street? I see you question how a chiroractor could practice once he gets his MD. What are you talking about. All chiropractors are not witch doctors as you seem to assume. Most chiro's that are trying to obtain there MD's will be the most conservative medical doctors you have seen. Using drugs and surgery as last resort. I have been praciting since 1988 , I do not tell patients we cure all, I refer to MD's, I mainly treat musclcular /skeletal problems and they have done very well. I still do not understand your bias towards chiro's.

Habeed
09-10-2003, 05:11 PM
Well, no matter how credible you may be, dsfx, the fact remains that chiros have a less than stellar repuatation. (yes, half it of very well could be the AMA slandering them, and MD's have killed people by the thousands in the past when they screwed up their methodologies). Given that a chiro must already be a decent clinician, giving up another 7 years or more of their life must require strong reasons. So, Azkeptic is wondering whether the chiropractor training makes medical school significantly easier, and whether chiros are attending because they no longer believe in the methodology or because they want the extra income and respect of an MD, or because they want to treat a different set of problems.

azskeptic
09-10-2003, 05:58 PM
Well, I suppose it is a good question. I am a consumer advocate which means that I study things, ask questions, and express my opinion. My qualifications are that I am not in a competitive field (I am not a physician,chiropractor,etc.) and I am an educated man. But that isn't really important in the scheme of things. Curiousity leads me to try to understand.

Yes, I oppose on-line medical school and advanced credit placement for non-physicians in medical school based on their chiropractic,dental,etc. studies. I am not anti-chiropractic..I believe there is a place for chiropractic and have gone to chiropractors in the past. I beleive that the chiropractic industry seems to have a lot of problems,not necessarily brought on by the AMA but rather by the infighting between evidence based scientific chiropractors and those who are way on the other side (Life Graduates for lack of a better term).

It would seem to me that as a medical student when you look at the science you are taught it would be hard to continue to believe some of what you have been taught.

anyway, not trying to fight, only asking questions. If that doesn't answer your question I would be happy to talk privately with you.

dsfx
09-10-2003, 06:03 PM
My reason may be much different then others, but there are several, One to prove that chiropractors are not all idiots. To expand my current scope, to be able to treat the whole person, to simply do something different, I have always wanted to be a family doctor, yes I know some chiropractors say they are, but I'm realistic, I know we can't treat everything.. I like to practice as a GP but also use my skills as chiropractor . I would not induce drug therapy first, but would look for more conservative approaches to healthcare. What I have seen over 15 years, are patients that are medical failures , usally post surgical that have not responsed, chronic cases or individuals who living off drug therapy. In reference to do I think my chiropracic education will help me pass the boards, I say yes. I've been taking some practice test thru Kaplan and been going thru the USMLE review it's appears ,I'll do well, except for my spelling, By the way every proffession has it's problems, how many people die from medical errors everyday in the US, I'm sure these are not just from FMG's. I've met alot of US medical grads that can't tie their shoes

dsfx
09-10-2003, 06:16 PM
Yes,trust me chiropractic does have it's problems. but so do alot of other health professions in the US. Look I'm not looking for a fight either, I'm just saying we are not all the same, some of us are more medically incline than others, some are just off the wall. I just want to continue a path I started a long time ago. I believe medicine and chiropractic education will work well together, and my education in both well benefit my patients, I like people and want to continue helping them.

Habeed
09-11-2003, 10:03 PM
Correct, dsfx. I know chiropractors vary considerably in methodology and approach. Also, MDs, while enjoying a better image in the public eye, have killed and maimed people by the tens of thousands in the past by skipping vigorous testing of new treatments. Perhaps you have read of the tens of thousands of preemie infants blinded by the use of pure oxygen, and the thousands more who died by poorly written laws banning use of high oxygen concentration for even short periods. There are countless other examples, from drugs and vaccine's harmful effects to surgeries gone badly wrong, leaving a mess of scar tissue and numbness.

teratos
09-12-2003, 08:33 AM
There will always be bad apples that get through the system and wreak havoc. You cannot apply that to the entire profession. Think about it. When a surgeon amputates the wrong leg, it makes national news. Everyone knows about it. It doesn't happen that often. As for "disfiguring" surgeries, there are a lot of instances of that. Surgery in and of itself is a risky venture, and cosmetic surgery is not without it's complications. If you get a tummy tuck and then develop necrotizing fasciitis, you will be disfigured, if not dead. Is that the fault of the surgeon? I guess it could be, but it is also a risk of the procedure, even when done correctly.

There is a trial and error period with every new treatment. Sometimes, despite being studied, effects are not seen until drugs/treatments make it into the general population. The effect may be so rare that it did not show up in the study population, despite being of a large size and the study being well done. Look at Rezulin. There were a few cases of fulminant hepatic failure...not many when you considered the number of people on the drug, but when it happened it was usually fatal.

Vaccines....this is a STUPID arguement. What is the incidence of autism from vaccines? How can you say vaccines CAUSE autism, when the vast majority of children get them. How about the amount of disease and death PREVENTED by vaccines. The number of children who died of what are now preventable diseases is several orders of magnitude higher than the number of children who "get autism" from vaccines. Even if vaccines cause autism at the rate the opponents say they do, I would still vaccineate my child rather than risk measles, mumps, rubella, polio etc. I would bet that the number of kids getting subacute sclerosing panencephalitis would be higher than the number of kids who "become autistic" from vaccines. Let me present some liturature for you:

"In a more direct study, Madsen and others examined all children (more than half a million) born in Denmark from 1991 through 1998. Of those children, 82 percent had received the MMR vaccine. The other 18% did not. The researchers found that there was no difference between the autism rate of vaccinated children as compared to unvaccinated children. In such a large study, even a slight increase in the risk of autism due to the MMR vaccine would show up. However, no such increase was seen. This is strong evidence that the MMR vaccine is not linked to autism."

Kreesten Meldgaard Madsen, et al. "A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism" NEJM 2002;347:1477-1482

Then there is the study on silicone breast implants. They put the company OUT OF BUSINESS with lawsuits. Then we did some solid research. Guess what? No increase in connective tissue disease was seen in a well done study. You can say that this is all a conspiracy, but I'm going with the data. G

Nebakanezer
09-12-2003, 10:43 AM
Dr. Durst, you certainly make a persuasive argument :D

I think anyone who prescribes to current scientific methodology and rationale thought will have difficulty finding fault in any of the arguments made throughout your last post.

FLK
09-15-2003, 11:02 AM
I would like to take it a step further and place blame on the media that reported the bogus paper that found a link between autism and MMR ( I believe it was in Lancet ) while barely mentioning the multiple meta analyses that refuted the paper

somewhere I am sure that some child went unprotected ( not only from MMR ) but from other vaccines that were lumped into the same category.

I am willing to bet that there are dead or severely affected children that suffered because they didn't receive the approppriate vaccinations based on bad data that was made legitimate by the media and trial lawyer lobby

teratos
09-15-2003, 11:17 AM
Anybody seen any commercials with lawyers advertising for people harmed by vaccines? I haven't but I odn't watch much TV. Wouldn't suprise me. I see the ones for Phen-fen, Baycol and Rezulin all the time. Also the one's for Cerebral Palsey....even though as far as I can tell, there is no known cause of CP. We can get money based on opinions and hunches.

There are lots of idiots who won't vaccinate their kids. My young'un has had every vaccine he can possibly get. I'm glad that the vaccines are available. This push toward herbal medicine and other "natural" cures just kills me. Not because it doesn't work, but becasue it does. At least when I write a prescription I know how much I am giving, what to expect, elimination, side effects etc. When the "Naturopaths" give stuff they don't know how much of the active drug they are giving, what the hell else is in the drug they are giving, the side effects, the long term effects, effects on children etc. When are people going to start suing them? It's only a matter of time. G

jaysun0373
09-16-2003, 02:24 AM
Here is an excellent commentary by an individual qualified to discuss both sides of the coin regarding the vaccine issue, Randy Ferrance, DC, MD

Here's the link: http://www.jcca-online.org/client/cca/JCCA.nsf/objects/Volume+47-1-2/$file/Pages04-07.pdf

futrphysician
09-16-2003, 03:55 AM
I have gotten the kids vaccinated and continue to do so because it makes sense. I have heard the arguments pro and con about it. However, I do take a more cautious approach about the schedule. Once we ran behind getting shots for one of the kids. He had to have 4 in one day. He later got so sick he was admitted and they had no clue as to what he had. Could have been a cold or a reaction for overloading his sytem. Nobody knew. From that point on, the only multiple I allowed on one day was MMR. If I had to I came back week after week to get caught up or get shots on schedule.

I could care less about giving other kids multiple shots. It doesn't hurt me to do that. (I hope that is understood). But when it comes to my kids I take a more irrational approach. Its just me. They still get them, but they do not get mulitples of anything if I can help it.

Cheers

stephew
09-18-2003, 03:53 PM
you wrote " chiropractor training makes medical school significantly easier"

Only anatomy. Some PD.

shamanhlr
09-20-2003, 01:41 AM
Dear friends:

After graduating from college I attended Osteopathic school for a year, and took my first year basic sciences there. I left osteopathic school for reasons that were out of my control (an anxiety disorder). After Osteo school I attended a year of Oriental medicine school (acupuncture and herbology) and then decided to attend chiro school, since I really enjoyed manual manipulation and touching/healing patients. As someone else mentioned in this thread there are two camps of schools in the chiro education; one that is based on philosophy (and not so much science and evidence) and one that relies on science and evidence. I happenned to attend a school that was based on science and evidence. In chiro school I received full credit for all my Osteo classes, but had to take classes that are covered in the second year of Med school. I can tell you all that the textbooks that were used in chiro school were exactly the same as Med school. Netter and Moore for anatomy, Champe and Harvey for Biochem, Robins for pathology, Guyton for physiology, the only textbook that I had that was not used in chiro school was champe and harveys pharmacology. Since prescriptive rights are not within the scope of practice of a chiropractic physician (yes chiropractors are physicians within 19 U.S. states including Michigan where I practice now).
I did notice that some subjects that were covered and tested on in Osteo school were not covered in chiro school, for example renal clearance formulas were not covered; again since a chiropractor would not be in a position to use such info when practicing. So, if I had to do it again, I would've started in Chiro school learning all subjects especially the basic sciences thoroughly, so that way Med school would not have been that hard. I remember seeing a paper recently pointing out the deficiencies of graduating M.D. docs in the realm of neuromuscoloskeletal competency. As a chiro this is my realm, I treat NMS conditions without drugs and surgery, and when I can't help the patient I refer to the family doc, orthopod, surgeon, or whomever that is competent to help the patient.
I may not be that knowledgeable as a radiation oncologist (which BTW a good friend of mine is at the NIH) when it comes to treating cancer, but I have the training to detect some tumors on x-ray (I still get all x-rays read by a radiologist, though), and when I know it is cancer, or any condition outside of my scope of practice I refer. I treat the local Ob/Gyn and family doc, and I have a good working relationship with them.
BTW I'm still young and plan on attending med school (this time M.D.) out of the country. Nepal, india, and eastern europe are in order of my choices. I beleive in an Intregrative approach to medicine (for more info visit www.askdrweil.com). Oh yeah my anxiety disorder is under control I healed myself through yoga; which I also use in my practice (I am a registered yoga therapist). Two years of paxil didn't help at all, it just made me not care.

Ali

dt
09-20-2003, 02:05 AM
Well, avoid Nepal for now. There is a civil war going on there!

dsfx
09-20-2003, 09:07 AM
It's good to see someone else who see's there is two different types of chiropractors. I'm glad you metioned our basic sciences are very similar to medicine, good luck on obtaining your M.D.

azskeptic
09-20-2003, 11:59 AM
I don't want to be disrespectful because I understand education is an individual thing i.e. you learn many things yourself,not based on who is teaching you. But the level of educators at most chiropractic schools is nowhere close to med schools. Look at the backgrounds between these 2 groups of faculty:

http://www.nycc.edu/aom/faclist.html

compare that to just the anatomy dept of Mt. Sinai

http://adsr13.mssm.edu/domains/dept/facultyList.epl?objname=cellbio

Most chiropractic schools don't have many MD's or PHD's teaching in them.

You are now going to become an MD. You won't be having to put out those silly brochures

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11677551&dopt=Abstract

that say how many hours of 'equivalent to an MD' training you get in medical school. You will be dealing with science rather than trying to convince patients that their health problems are due to
Subluxations.

I can understand you wanting to defend your previous profession but when you are entering a scientific profession part of your education must be to deal with reality. I am not anti-chiropractic...chiropractic has its place in helping lower back pain. But there are way too many 'weirdo's in the profession and I can understand you wanting to distance yourself from people who are going to seminars to try and get patients to be patients for life,etc.

azskeptic
09-20-2003, 12:27 PM
the url for the med school faculty is:

http://adsr13.mssm.edu/domains/dept/facultyList.epl?objname=cellbio

AUCMD2006
09-20-2003, 06:43 PM
definite prime instigator without proper background most of the time. i was working in a family practice when that idiotic article came out and it was all over the news in miami b/c dan marino's kid is autistic so there is a relative large amount of coverage on it. i i actually had to write out a paper describing why it wasn't true to give out to patients b/c of the many requests to cancel their child'd immunizations. i was also there for the rezulin disaster and that pill that supposedly was a pain killer somewhere between percocet and dilaudid but with out opiod effect, i can't remember the name but it was recalled after two months or something b/c one person had renal failure i beleive and the company didn't want the bad PR after the phen phen deal. which we got a report a year later showing that after a larger population study there was no significant difference in dopplers of patients whom had taken the combo and other similar grouped people. enough ranting, back to physio

shamanhlr
09-22-2003, 12:24 AM
Azskeptic, I am not sure if your reply was meant for me but since nobody has replied concerning your last post I thought I would point out a few things. When did the subject of this thread become Chiro School vs. Med school? This thread started out with you wanting to know about “I am very interested in hearing from the DC's on this board how the transition is into medical school”. So I shared my experiences with you and the people that read this thread. The subject of the thread was Chiro School to Med school and not vs... I respect your skepticism and drive to seek the truth, and that is why I am up writing this reply.

1- You started off mentioning “education is an individual thing i.e. you learn many things yourself, not based on who is teaching you” very true. That is why some great docs come from some of the less stellar schools and some awful docs come from very reputable schools. And then you start comparing medical education to a chiropractic education. Don’t compare apples to oranges. I did not attend chiropractic school because I wanted to become an M.D. or D.O.; I attended Chiro School to become a chiropractor. From personal experience my anatomy teacher in Osteo School was a TA in an anatomy lab before becoming the head of the anatomy department; and the anatomy teacher in Chiro School used to teach at AUC in the Caribbean. All my basic science instructors in Chiro School were Ph.D.’s. Also my path teacher in Chiro School happened to be an M.D... But then why would you want to have an M.D. teach basic sciences or clinical sciences in a chiro school? For basic sciences you would preferably have a Ph.D. and if you are to become an M.D. or D.O. you would want an M.D. or D.O. to teach you the clinical sciences; and if you were to become a chiropractor you would want a D.C. to teach you the clinical sciences.

2- You mentioned “that say how many hours of 'equivalent to an MD' training you get in medical school. You will be dealing with science rather than trying to convince patients that their health problems are due to Subluxations”. First you assume that I subscribe to subluxation theory, don’t assume. Not all chiropractors believe in subluxation theory, please check out: http://www.chiromed.org and for great papers on chiropractic manipulation visit http://www.chiro.org/LINKS/ and a great government sponsored site with info about chiropractic visit http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/chiropractic.html
Subluxation may have different meanings when used, each chiropractor may have their own definition, I also like to use the term “somatic dysfunction” (which is what some osteopaths use to describe the conditions that they treat with manipulation). For another great paper that was authored by an M.D., D.O., and D.C. in the JAOA (the Journal of the American Osteopathic Association) check out J Am Osteopath Assoc 2001 Aug;101(8):441-4 (ISSN: 0098-6151) titled “Manual medicine diversity: research pitfalls and the emerging medical paradigm”. The paper explains that there are differences in terminology between the professions that use manual therapies and that there is a need for a more coherent terminology when communicating on an academic level.
And yes when starting chiro school I saw those silly brochures that you mentioned in your post comparing a medical education to a chiropractic education in terms of hours spent in class, I chuckled; but then I have a unique background in that I attended Osteopathic school first before attending chiropractic school. Medical education and Chiropractic education have many similarities in their basic sciences, when it comes to clinical education except for a Physical diagnosis course it is different.

3- You then write “but when you are entering a scientific profession part of your education must be to deal with reality. I am not anti-chiropractic...chiropractic has its place in helping lower back pain” Manual manipulation is a science, it is also an art. Look at the journal that you reference; JMPT is a great journal that is peer reviewed, and which many M.D.’s, D.O.’s, and D.C.’s contribute too. Also the link that you provide is to a COMMENTARY look at the abstract. Yes many chiropractors do silly things, that are not based on science or evidence, but don’t throw the baby out with the dish water. Chiropractic manipulation treats more than back pain, here is an example: Patient presents with pain in the upper thoracic region that is interfering with sleep and activities of daily living; tight/overactive upper Traps, and Levator scapulae, and a weak/inhibited deep neck flexors. He/She also has a tight/overactive Pectoralis major, and a weak/inhibited Rhomboids, and Serratus anterior. This condition is called “upper cross syndrome”. His/Her shoulders are internally rotated, he/she has a kyphotic thoracic spine, and a protracted scapulae. Treatment protocol would include:
a- Stretching short, tight overactive muscles (heat and stretch), and in my case I would teach her specific yoga poses directed towards those muscles.
b- Strengthening and facilitating weak or inhibited muscles (exercise and rehab.), in my case specific yoga postures that include eccentric strengthening of those muscles.
c- Posture and activity changes
d- Chiropractic manipulative treatment to the thoracic spine to facilitate neuromuscular changes.

4- You also said” Most chiropractic schools don't have many MD's or PhD’s teaching in them”. Again there is no need for an M.D. to teach at a Chiropractic school, but the rest of your statement is untrue. All accredited Chiropractic schools have Ph.D.’s teaching their basic sciences. Visit the site http://www.cce-usa.org/2003%20January%20STANDARDS.pdf
On page 18 of the manual you will find the standards given by the CCE (Council on Chiropractic Education, the accrediting body of Chiropractic schools).

5- You mention “I can understand you wanting to defend your previous profession …But there are way too many 'weirdo's in the profession and I can understand you wanting to distance yourself from people who are going to seminars to try and get patients to be patients for life,etc”
I am a Chiropractic physician, and I will always be one; I might further my education by attending med school after practicing for a year or two (to pay off all the loans I have accrued). You are right there are some “weirdos” in my profession (but then aren’t there weirdos in any profession?) I have distanced myself from them, by adhering to procedures that are based on science and evidence. But also know that there are many other chiropractors out there like me, I am not a minority. Also don’t family docs keep their patients for life, isn’t that the premise of family medicine, to treat the whole family?

If you find the field of manual medicine intriguing and you find it difficult to gain access to a domestic medical school (M.D. or D.O.), test yourself and attend a good science based Chiropractic school. You will find yourself struggling less than your future class mates (that only have an under-graduate education) in your first year and some courses in your second year of medical school.

While I’m at it, when acquiring another professional degree you choose which license you would like to practice with. The way I understand it you can not practice and hold two professional licenses simultaneously.

My motivation to attend medical school is to practice integrative medicine: using orthodox medicine (for lack of a better term), nutrition, yoga, acupuncture, and yes manual medicine. To heal the body, mind, and soul.

Let me close with one of my favorite quotes by B.K.S. Iyengar the man that wrote the “bible” of yoga and introduced the west to yoga.

The end of analysis is the beginning of discrimination. The end of discrimination is the beginning of knowledge.

dsfx
09-22-2003, 09:41 AM
Shamanhir, just wanted to say thanks for letting azskeptic get some facts about chiro education. He appears to be a man, who voices his views about a profession he is not familiar with except for what he reads. Apparently not a Doctor of ant type or form, from what he has said in the past. He's not looking for our opinions on anything, just looking to bash a profession. If what we do is so unscientific why is there an an article on the current AMA web site about treatment of Otitis Media with OMT, he will just say that OMT's and CMT are different because one's done by a chiro and the other done by a Osteopath who is medically trained, and had his basic sciences taught by and MD or DO

jaysun0373
09-22-2003, 04:22 PM
Now, as both a Chiropractic physician and a friend of azskeptic, I feel I need to respond to this discussion to put it into its proper context. Azskeptic's replies are meant to spark discussion and debate, not to insult anyone personally. We, as Chiropractors, tend to be suspicious of others inquiries, and usually respond to any sort of question, as an attack on our credibility and training. I agree that basic sciences should only be taught be professors with degrees in those fields, usually a MS or PhD. For the clinical sciences, you would want a DC, because only a Chiropractor will be able to put the subject into it's proper context within our profession. For physical diagnosis, I believe that we are as good, if not better in just about every area. For example, I teach NMS exam procedures to IM and FP residents at several local hospitals, because I have had 3 years of training, not the 2 to 6 weeks they get. I am better at reading x-rays than most medical doctors, because I do it everyday. Azskeptic's inquiries are directed more at the terrible lack of conformity in our training, and the lack of exposure we get to conditions other than what we see everyday.
There are over 200 different technique systems in our profession, most of which do not stand up to the light of scientific scrutiny. There is little real policing of what we do, and even worse, what we say to the public. I truly believe that azskeptic's remarks and comments are only meant to get some of us to look at ourselves and our profession in the same light that the profession we are entering into is. Now, this not meant to spark a debate about who kills more people each year, or any kind of bashing of either profession. It's about acknowledging that the medical community does not allow the kind of freedom of practice that our owm currently does, and we will have to change fairly dramatically in the way we do things. Please do not look at his replies as an attack, just as a dialogue between intelligent and educated people. You cannot expect an outsider to understand the turmoil and difficulties we experience so often.
Sorry about the rant, just kind of came out........Jaysun

azskeptic
09-22-2003, 04:34 PM
You are right..am not a doctor..don't profess to be one..just a consumer asking questions. That I question online med schools and those who attend them appears to bother some but it is my opinion and many other people's also,from talking to medical boards.

Have many friends who are chiropractors as well as MD's and DO's also and everyone has a place in this world.

Not bashing chiropractors..only bashing those who attempt to do half measures in getting educated as MD's. I applaud anyone who seeks education in new fields,such as medical training .

If you want to fight,you've come to the wrong person. Discussion is what I do.

Az Skeptic

pkimm
11-03-2005, 05:45 AM
You are right..am not a doctor..don't profess to be one..just a consumer asking questions.

You have a lot of posts for a consumer...;)

azskeptic
11-03-2005, 07:50 AM
You have a lot of posts for a consumer...;) Well, you too can have them. Post away.

microphage
11-03-2005, 11:16 AM
Well, you too can have them. Post away.

I'm a consumer... I consume lots of food.

jpryor
11-03-2005, 12:55 PM
Shamanhlr, you're talking way over the head of Azskeptic.

azskeptic
11-03-2005, 01:04 PM
Shamanhlr, you're talking way over the head of Azskeptic. thanks for explaining that

microphage
11-03-2005, 02:04 PM
thanks for explaining that

what did he mean? :confused:

azskeptic
11-03-2005, 02:14 PM
what did he mean? :confused: It is beyond the comprehension of a non-medical student so I just accept it as the truth and am appreciative that he gave it to me. The proper attitude of a non-believer is one of calm acceptance when approached by a believer.

AUCMD2006
11-03-2005, 02:38 PM
"It's about acknowledging that the medical community does not allow the kind of freedom of practice that our owm currently does, and we will have to change fairly dramatically in the way we do things."


good points. allopaths had a shift in thinking from blood leting and mercury cures, same as osteopaths in the early 20th century had to adapt. chiro is great for what it does, my back is great after an adjustment but the quacks you guys have advertising to cure asthma and cancer with spine manipultions added to the booths at the mall discredit the profession. then when one actually looks at the prof more carefully you guys are disorganized on everything from terminology, diagnostic criteria, to school curriculum. there is no real standard

you guys need to take a page out of the allopath book and close about half the chiro schools, make a universal curriculm, and finally come to some agreement on your scope of practice and what exactly a subluxation is. and for the love of god please demand that DC's can't endorse anymore products on TV. i started to see MD's doing it and it is sad that they have come to that point, isn;t it against ethical standards for an MD to endorse a product? maybe its one of those IUHS online MD's....

i watched pen and teller's ** once and they had a guy with no symptoms claim he had back pain, went to a few dif chiros and they all saw subluxations at different levels on his spine and recommended weekly visits.

i need to have my back cracked, on call last night i slept on a chair

microphage
11-03-2005, 09:27 PM
isn;t it against ethical standards for an MD to endorse a product? maybe its one of those IUHS online MD's....


Just watch out for Skipper's. They are gonna be doing that pretty soon(I have the inside scoop)

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 04:29 PM
"It's about acknowledging that the medical community does not allow the kind of freedom of practice that our owm currently does, and we will have to change fairly dramatically in the way we do things."


good points. allopaths had a shift in thinking from blood leting and mercury cures, same as osteopaths in the early 20th century had to adapt. chiro is great for what it does, my back is great after an adjustment but the quacks you guys have advertising to cure asthma and cancer with spine manipultions added to the booths at the mall discredit the profession. then when one actually looks at the prof more carefully you guys are disorganized on everything from terminology, diagnostic criteria, to school curriculum. there is no real standard

you guys need to take a page out of the allopath book and close about half the chiro schools, make a universal curriculm, and finally come to some agreement on your scope of practice and what exactly a subluxation is. and for the love of god please demand that DC's can't endorse anymore products on TV. i started to see MD's doing it and it is sad that they have come to that point, isn;t it against ethical standards for an MD to endorse a product? maybe its one of those IUHS online MD's....

i watched pen and teller's ** once and they had a guy with no symptoms claim he had back pain, went to a few dif chiros and they all saw subluxations at different levels on his spine and recommended weekly visits.

i need to have my back cracked, on call last night i slept on a chair Somehow I think pediatrics will be more complicated in medical school than in chiropractic see this 'diplomate' program

http://www.icapediatrics.com/files/CCP-Schedule-2005.pdf

AUCMD2006
11-04-2005, 05:29 PM
wow, i didn't know you could learn pediatrics, including neonatal care in less than two weeks. quacks

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 05:40 PM
wow, i didn't know you could learn pediatrics, including neonatal care in less than two weeks. quacks I don't know but they have some neat sites for conferences

http://accoweb.org/

dsfx
11-07-2005, 04:03 PM
Lets not be stupid, this is not a complete pediatric course, Peds are taught while in school this is a course in manipulation for peds and evaluation

StChrisCS
11-07-2005, 04:31 PM
But that isn't really important in the scheme of things.I disagree, this should be a central issue for many people that read what you write or listen to what you have to say.

They need to understand that you have no formal education or degrees in medicine, public policy, investigation, or law. You are not certified or verified by any organization, including well known public advocacy and protection groups.

The sum total of your experience in any of this is a few letters, a few speeches, an appearance on a talk radio show, and way too much time on the internet.

You should really make this more well known, it almost borders on deception.

azskeptic
11-07-2005, 04:36 PM
I disagree, this should be a central issue for many people that read what you write or listen to what you have to say.

They need to understand that you have no formal education or degrees in medicine, public policy, investigation, or law. You are not certified or verified by any organization, including well known public advocacy and protection groups.

The sum total of your experience in any of this is a few letters, a few speeches, an appearance on a talk radio show, and way too much time on the internet.

You should really make this more well known, it almost borders on deception. You don't know the sum total of my experience but it is ok. Those who I speak in front of do because I tell them. My undergraduate degree is in sociology and I have worked in hospitals back in the dark ages before going into the egg business. But remember, reporters and volunteers, aren't licensed. You don't need a degree in medicine to appear on a talk show. In fact in England NO doctors work for the GMC. But again,attempts at downgrading me,etc. don't deal with the facts that agencies are bringing out,not me. You can talk about me,to me, behind me, but it won't help; concentrate on the battle you apparently are part of. I am indeed not a big factor in all of this and am just a small dot in the scheme of things.

StChrisCS
11-07-2005, 04:45 PM
You don't know the sum total of my experience but it is okActually, I am familiar with it, you have posted it on VMD several times, as well as on your homepage, and it has been mentioned on various sites where you have commented.
I have worked in hospitals back in the dark ages before going into the egg business.So this is the sum total of your medical experience, besides as a consumer? That isn't much. I know people without a HS education that have worked in hospitals for decades, but I wouldn't trust their opinion on public policy or medical education.
You don't need a degree in medicine to appear on a talk show.Yes, I believe Howard Stern has aptly demonstrated this time and time again
But again,attempts at downgrading me,etc.I wasn't aware that discussing facts was considered degrading. Why do you feel that way? Are you ashamed of your lack of experience, qualifications, or education in these fields?

azskeptic
11-07-2005, 04:52 PM
Actually, I am familiar with it, you have posted it on VMD several times, as well as on your homepage, and it has been mentioned on various sites where you have commented.So this is the sum total of your medical experience, besides as a consumer? That isn't much. I know people without a HS education that have worked in hospitals for decades, but I wouldn't trust their opinion on public policy or medical education. Yes, I believe Howard Stern has aptly demonstrated this time and time againI wasn't aware that discussing facts was considered degrading. Why do you feel that way? Are you ashamed of your lack of experience, qualifications, or education in these fields? Actually I am doing quite well in life and do what is needed and am happy; tell us about your achievements so far?

StChrisCS
11-07-2005, 05:03 PM
Actually I am doing quite well in life and do what is needed and am happy; tell us about your achievements so far?
Nice try, but your attempts to throw this discussion off topic won't work. I'm not the one holding myself up as a public advocate, despite lack of credentials, appropriate education, significant experience, or official recognition in any of the fields that are being analyzed here.

azskeptic
11-07-2005, 05:08 PM
Nice try, but your attempts to throw this discussion off topic won't work. I'm not the one holding myself up as a public advocate, despite lack of credentials, appropriate education, significant experience, or official recognition in any of the fields that are being analyzed here.

What is a Consumer Advocate?
Definition: A Consumer Advocate is an individual who pleads the case of the consumer and calls the attention to issues that concern the customer.

StChrisCS
11-07-2005, 05:23 PM
What is a Consumer Advocate?
Definition: A Consumer Advocate is an individual who pleads the case of the consumer and calls the attention to issues that concern the customer. Using that definition, anyone could be a "consumer advocate", including the most uneducated, ignorant, and morally corrupt people in the world. That's not much to define oneself or ones actions by.

For an idea of what a consumer advocate should look like, go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader

Graduated from Princeton University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University) in 1955 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955) and Harvard Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_School) in 1958 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958)... began work as a lawyer in Hartford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford%2C_Connecticut)... Between 1961 and 1963, he was a Professor of History and Government at the University of Hartford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Hartford)... got a job working for then-Assistant Secretary of Labor Daniel Patrick Moynihan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Patrick_Moynihan)...

Attending law school and graduating, not only did he obtain an extensive knowledgeable of the law, but about the institution and construction of public policy. Functioning as a lawyer, he saw first hand the nature and process of the judicial system and the effects of laws and policy on individuals and companies. As a professor he had to have a vast understanding of the organization of government, and regulation of the public and private sector, as well as how they functioned. Working for the ASoL he had exposure to and influence on public policy, the process of government, and the needs of the people. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Now that is a man that has the education, the credentials, and the experience to be an effective consumer advocate of and for the people.

azskeptic
11-07-2005, 05:29 PM
Using that definition, anyone could be a "consumer advocate", including the most uneducated, ignorant, and morally corrupt people in the world. That's not much to define oneself or ones actions by.

For an idea of what a consumer advocate should look like, go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader

Graduated from Princeton University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University) in 1955 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955) and Harvard Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Law_School) in 1958 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958)... began work as a lawyer in Hartford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford%2C_Connecticut)... Between 1961 and 1963, he was a Professor of History and Government at the University of Hartford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Hartford)... got a job working for then-Assistant Secretary of Labor Daniel Patrick Moynihan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Patrick_Moynihan)...

Attending law school and graduating, not only did he obtain an extensive knowledgeable of the law, but about the institution and construction of public policy. Functioning as a lawyer, he saw first hand the nature and process of the judicial system and the effects of laws and policy on individuals and companies. As a professor he had to have a vast understanding of the organization of government, and regulation of the public and private sector, as well as how they functioned. Working for the ASoL he had exposure to and influence on public policy, the process of government, and the needs of the people. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Now that is a man that has the education, the credentials, and the experience to be an effective consumer advocate of and for the people. There is only one Ralph Nader but he has a headstart on me. We'll see how I do. I've only been in the consumer advocate role in medical schools since 2003 and in healthfraud itself since early 90's. Give me some time.

StChrisCS
11-07-2005, 05:40 PM
There is only one Ralph Nader but he has a headstart on me. We'll see how I do. I've only been in the consumer advocate role in medical schools since 2003 and in healthfraud itself since early 90's. Give me some time.This is something that should be left to the professionals, amateurs just put the public at risk by inciting unnecessary panic, providing incomplete or invalid information, and compromise the professional agencies by doing so. I think this is true of just about any field that has to do with the good of the public interest.

Look at these amateur health fraud "consumer advocates":

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/ (http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/)

This is nothing short of dangerous to people. It compromises and undermines the efforts of the various medical groups and government agencies that are trying to combat this issue.

Professional organizations and government agencies that perform these functions exist for a reason and serve a purpose. Vigilantism and dabbling in issues of public policy and safety are not meant to be a hobby, interest, or game. Thinking that they need this kind of "amateur" help is arrogant and deluded.

azskeptic
11-07-2005, 05:45 PM
This is something that should be left to the professionals, amateurs just put the public at risk by inciting unnecessary panic, providing incomplete or invalid information, and compromise the professional agencies by doing so. I think this is true of just about any field that has to do with the good of the public interest.

Look at these amateur health fraud "consumer advocates":

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/ (http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/)

This is nothing short of dangerous to people. It compromises and undermines the efforts of the various medical groups and government agencies that are trying to combat this issue.

Professional organizations and government agencies that perform these functions exist for a reason and serve a purpose. Vigilantism and dabbling in issues of public policy and safety are not meant to be a hobby, interest, or game. Thinking that they need this kind of "amateur" help is arrogant and deluded. Our country is made of lots of volunteers in many fields and it has made our country strong. Volunteerism makes the difference. That you don't like the issue is your right. Start a committee and convince the world that you are right. That is the beauty of our system. We have freedoms to make a difference. Come and hear me in Europe next year at the next large meeting of educators that have invited me to speak on offshore medical education or in several other places in the US in next few months. Our country leads the world in free speech.

StChrisCS
11-07-2005, 05:55 PM
Our country is made of lots of volunteers in many fields and it has made our country strong. Volunteerism makes the difference.Volunteerism is wonderful, but it should be left out of fields where it poses a danger to the public.

Last I was aware, the US didn't allow people with a lack of proper education, no significant experience, or external validation of any kind to volunteer as a stand-in surgeon because someone didn't think the surgeon was doing a good job. The reason for that is it poses an unacceptable danger to the public.

Amateur "consumer advocates" pose the same danger. Just because someone can can with up a good story, doesn't mean they should be trusted or accepted. There are no checks on what they are doing, their motivations for doing so, or on the validity of what they are saying, just as I pointed out with the webpage above. It falls just short of unethical.

azskeptic
11-07-2005, 06:07 PM
Volunteerism is wonderful, but it should be left out of fields where it poses a danger to the public.

Last I was aware, the US didn't allow people with a lack of proper education, no significant experience, or external validation of any kind to volunteer as a stand-in surgeon because someone didn't think the surgeon was doing a good job. The reason for that is it poses an unacceptable danger to the public.

Amateur "consumer advocates" pose the same danger. Just because someone can can with up a good story, doesn't mean they should be trusted or accepted. There are no checks on what they are doing, their motivations for doing so, or on the validity of what they are saying, just as I pointed out with the webpage above. It falls just short of unethical. By definition to be an advocate for consumers you need to be a consumer. By definition all are amateurs though some are experienced. I've been involved in a lot of projects over the years so I feel confident I can do my volunteer projects. Thanks for your concern though.

StChrisCS
11-07-2005, 06:19 PM
By definition to be an advocate for consumers you need to be a consumer. By definition all are amateurs though some are experienced. I've been involved in a lot of projects over the years so I feel confident I can do my volunteer projects. Thanks for your concern though.
All people are consumers, and as per your definition:


What is a Consumer Advocate?

Definition: A Consumer Advocate is an individual who pleads the case of the consumer and calls the attention to issues that concern the customer. I don't see it saying anything about consumer advocates being amateurs. I would say that any serious consumer advocate is a member of a relevant professional organization, with the appropriate education, experience, and qualifications to perform that function expertly and without an inappropriate agenda or bias. See my post linking to Wikipedia above for an idea of what this might be.

I'm glad you feel confident in your ability, but that doesn't mean or convey much of anything to the public, to the law, the government, or the industry and shouldn't be trusted. Just because someone feels qualified to be a surgeon because they were a butcher at a supermarket doesn't meant they have the skills, intelligence, experience, qualifications, or education to do so. Feelings are great, but when it comes to a professional field, they don't amount to a hill of pinto beans.

azskeptic
11-07-2005, 06:31 PM
All people are consumers, and as per your definition:

I don't see it saying anything about consumer advocates being amateurs. I would say that any serious consumer advocate is a member of a relevant professional organization, with the appropriate education, experience, and qualifications to perform that function expertly and without an inappropriate agenda or bias. See my post linking to Wikipedia above for an idea of what this might be.

I'm glad you feel confident in your ability, but that doesn't mean or convey much of anything to the public, to the law, the government, or the industry and shouldn't be trusted. Just because someone feels qualified to be a surgeon because they were a butcher at a supermarket doesn't meant they have the skills, intelligence, experience, qualifications, or education to do so. Feelings are great, but when it comes to a professional field, they don't amount to a hill of pinto beans. I'm not an advocate to you. Thanks

StChrisCS
11-07-2005, 06:36 PM
I'm not an advocate to you. Thanks No, you try to be an advocate to general public, and that's the scary part, as I have demonstrated with your lack of appropriate education, experience, and qualifications of any kind.

Smythe
11-07-2005, 07:16 PM
No, you try to be an advocate to general public, and that's the scary part, as I have demonstrated with your lack of appropriate education, experience, and qualifications of any kind.

you've demonstrated what again?

BTW: how many licensure boards have you lectured to?
Last time I checked the minutes of the Texas BVoard of Medical examiners, the eggman was a featured speaker.

I am sure he'll post the link for you since you hate looking things up.
Just ask him nicely

StChrisCS
11-07-2005, 07:22 PM
you've demonstrated what again?

BTW: how many licensure boards have you lectured to?Last I was aware, one did not need any intelligence, education, qualifications, or even common sense to address the Texas board.

For all we know, they invited him to be the comic relief during the session. Even policy makers have to laugh once in a while.

stephew
11-07-2005, 07:23 PM
yes another thread rendered useless.







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