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LJG
10-19-2005, 11:44 PM
Why was the BBC on campus today?????

bts4202
10-20-2005, 06:46 PM
Why was the BBC on campus today?????

cool, a followup story from their first one a couple years ago. I look forward to seeing it.

hassaholic
11-01-2005, 04:11 PM
why were they here the first time?

stephew
11-01-2005, 04:12 PM
http://www.valuemd.com/the-relaxing-lounge/45584-bbc-website-announced-show-offshore-medical-school-situation-uk.html

stateofequilibrium
11-01-2005, 04:19 PM
http://www.valuemd.com/the-relaxing-lounge/45584-bbc-website-announced-show-offshore-medical-school-situation-uk.html

That can't be good.

neilc
11-01-2005, 04:19 PM
not exactly the kind of follow up they were hoping for...

stephew
11-01-2005, 04:20 PM
oh i dont know if its the same thing but one has to wonder. anyway the bbc does have someo f the best news out there so hopefully it will be quality stuff.

OLDPRO
11-01-2005, 05:27 PM
No one has said it was this school yet...........

hassaholic
11-01-2005, 05:36 PM
the description really makes it seem like its us though

azskeptic
11-01-2005, 05:36 PM
some say any publicity is good. If they are talking about you, it brings you out into the minds of the public. Good concise information is always welcomed by listeners. BBC is one of the best. everyone can listen wherever they are by clicking on:

This show will be on Sunday 11-6-05 at 11 a.m. England time You can hear it live at 3 a.m. Los Angeles time, 4 a.m. Phoenix/Denver time, 5 a.m. Dallas time or 6 a.m. New York time or you can wait and hear it on a file on this site. If you want to know what time it is in London (or anywhere else) go to: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/)
To go to BBC website (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=bzon5pbab.0.g5zl5pbab.bexdopbab.1088&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Ffivelive%2Fprogramm es%2Fworricker.shtml)
The BBC site has a place where you can click to listen live. http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/worricker.s (http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/worricker.s) html (FROM THEIR WEBSITE): Coming up - Sunday 6th November - Quack Qualifications? A loophole has allowed a massive boom in private medical schools which are unchecked and unregulated by UK authorities. An undercover investigation found two schools lying to prospective students who could pay tens of thousands of pounds in fees for a medical degree. Matthew Chapman reveals that the founder of a different school is an alleged college cheat and an administrator is a struck off doctor. Hundreds of students from this school get their medical experience in NHS hospitals, and one graduate is currently working as a surgeon, yet there are no official British checks on the quality of the school's teaching. Matthew Chapman investigates foreign medical schools operating in Britain.

hassaholic
11-01-2005, 06:45 PM
I wouldnt say that a BBC interview stating how St Chris is bad...can turn out to be good publicity


especially since you are so happy about it...it can only be bad news for those at St Chris

azskeptic
11-01-2005, 09:11 PM
I wouldnt say that a BBC interview stating how St Chris is bad...can turn out to be good publicity


especially since you are so happy about it...it can only be bad news for those at St Chris I am in agreement with BTS on this. A followup interview is interesting for those of us who aren't there everyday. I am as interested as you are to learn what they say. They are professionals and in your backyard so we should learn something from the UK.

bts4202
11-02-2005, 12:26 AM
BBC radio is nothing special. Although if they make enough of a stink then maybe the UK will create some sort of official evaluation and approval process. It would be great to have that kind of credibility.

Here is the original BBC TV episode praising us.

http://stchris.edu/resources/news/bbc.php

bts4202
11-02-2005, 12:27 AM
Here is the Herald and Post article about st chris:

http://stchris.edu/resources/news/pressrelease.php

bts4202
11-02-2005, 12:40 AM
UK GMC official stance on st chris after a thorough review of our school (multiple visits):


St. Christopher's College of Medicine, Luton (http://www.stchris.edu/)
This institution currently awards degrees from the St. Christopher's College of Medicine, Senegal which is WHO listed and therefore we accept its degrees for the purpose of registration.


http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp

hassaholic
11-02-2005, 03:32 AM
ya I agree this can only be a good thing

I hope the UK does set some criteria for opening med schools over here...and I have no doubt that St Chris would be able to pass it

ansgenius
11-02-2005, 04:28 AM
I don't see what there is to worry about. All the big players know about us. The General Medical Council knows that we're here and has visited the school many times. The Royal Society of Medicine knows about us and has accepted our students as junior members (myself included), after an inspection process. Kings College and UCL are both familiar with us. I think a few of us are also going to apply to be members of the British Medical Association. And it isn't like there is no form of oversight, there is the PLAB.

AUCMD2006
11-02-2005, 04:39 AM
you forget about public perception, you can reason with people about all you said but many may focus on the business aspect of the school or the africa connection and as soon as some lou dobbs type hypes up one of those angles it will be bad publicity. hopefully it is a follow up on last story and it is a positive for the school

OLDPRO
11-02-2005, 05:48 AM
you forget about public perception, you can reason with people about all you said but many may focus on the business aspect of the school or the africa connection and as soon as some lou dobbs type hypes up one of those angles it will be bad publicity. hopefully it is a follow up on last story and it is a positive for the school

Yea there are 3 other schools though until Sunday we will not know what light will come to this but I can tell you the Pitch is not always a home run nor a strike!

neilc
11-02-2005, 09:03 AM
there are a few potential problems arising from this, at least one of which i have been mentioning for a while...
1) st chris is squating on UK soil, and the UK is the only developed nation that allows this. even if st chris is great, this loophole will only last until some school blows it for everyone. i cannot imagine that the GMC would stand up and defend this practice in the face of any public outcry. what would be the point? these schools are not a significant source of doctors for the UK, and i think the benefit of keeping them is pretty small when compared to the risk of terrible negative public perception. people start to freak out when they feel that the doctors and students working on them may be unqualified.
2) some have mentioned that they think/hope the GMC will begin to evaluate these schools....well, possibly, but i think that is a strech. why would they do this? it is not like they have unlimited funds to throw at evaluating squating schools. this is the job of the senegalese govt. the brits already have a system evaluating british schools. if you want to operate on british soil, my guess is that they will make you become a british school (just like all other developed nations).
3) if this does turn out to be a negative piece on st chris, i can assure you that the other fluff articles will be ignored. there is really nothing to them but a campus tour, nothing that gets at who is running the school, how are they accredited, etc...so, if the real issues come up, i think that the other pieces are really going to be ignored. i mean, watch them. it is nothing but a PR piece, with no questions being asked!
4) i can assure you that the state medical boards are aware of this piece. now, if it is a negative article about a specific school, that can only be bad. the same can be said if it is about schools in the region. either way, i would bet that as the word gets spread a bit more, it will be harder to pull off the old "i study in england" bit without people knowing exactly what the deal is.

as i have mentioned (and many, many others) it is a great idea to run a school like this in england. lots of people will want to attend it just for that reason. but, your welcome there is pretty tenuous, IMHO, and really dependant on public perception, the willingness of the GMC to deal with or ignore you, and the quality of ALL the other schools that will use this loophole as well.

azskeptic
11-02-2005, 09:10 AM
there are a few potential problems arising from this, at least one of which i have been mentioning for a while...
1) st chris is squating on UK soil, and the UK is the only developed nation that allows this. even if st chris is great, this loophole will only last until some school blows it for everyone. i cannot imagine that the GMC would stand up and defend this practice in the face of any public outcry. what would be the point? these schools are not a significant source of doctors for the UK, and i think the benefit of keeping them is pretty small when compared to the risk of terrible negative public perception. people start to freak out when they feel that the doctors and students working on them may be unqualified.
2) some have mentioned that they think/hope the GMC will begin to evaluate these schools....well, possibly, but i think that is a strech. why would they do this? it is not like they have unlimited funds to throw at evaluating squating schools. this is the job of the senegalese govt. the brits already have a system evaluating british schools. if you want to operate on british soil, my guess is that they will make you become a british school (just like all other developed nations).
3) if this does turn out to be a negative piece on st chris, i can assure you that the other fluff articles will be ignored. there is really nothing to them but a campus tour, nothing that gets at who is running the school, how are they accredited, etc...so, if the real issues come up, i think that the other pieces are really going to be ignored. i mean, watch them. it is nothing but a PR piece, with no questions being asked!
4) i can assure you that the state medical boards are aware of this piece. now, if it is a negative article about a specific school, that can only be bad. the same can be said if it is about schools in the region. either way, i would bet that as the word gets spread a bit more, it will be harder to pull off the old "i study in england" bit without people knowing exactly what the deal is.

as i have mentioned (and many, many others) it is a great idea to run a school like this in england. lots of people will want to attend it just for that reason. but, your welcome there is pretty tenuous, IMHO, and really dependant on public perception, the willingness of the GMC to deal with or ignore you, and the quality of ALL the other schools that will use this loophole as well. Well written and to the point. It basically says what a few have been saying all along and like Neil, have taken slugs to the head for saying.

bts4202
11-02-2005, 09:30 AM
Actually, they can not close the "loophole", because there actually is no loophole. There is an explicit law that specifically permits foriegn schools to operate campuses on british soil so long as they are very clear they are not issuing british degrees. The reason MCL was closed was because of that very reason, they were lying to students. If they were to change that law they would displace thousands upon thousands of students who attend schools with a similar set up to st chris, but teaching other subjects.

If this radio show found some other schools lying, then I am sure the GMC will act. However, any real discussion would be balanced and include both sides. If they were unable to find st chris doing anything wrong and can only snipe at us with unsubstantiated garbage like "we hear the founder cheated in college" or sensationalistic crap like "their 5th semester review course organizer in the US had his medical license revoked for having sexual relations in pulblic", then I would not really give it a whole lot of credibility. Real news sources must actually confirm their data and don't get away with reporting completely uncorroborated gossip by prefacing it with the word "allegedly".

While any negative press would be unwelcome, I am seriously unconcerned about this radio shows effect on st chris as a whole.

teratos
11-02-2005, 09:33 AM
Even if the founder DID cheat in college, who cares? Unless he offers a course in cheating, and encourages all the students to cheat as well. G

AUCMD2006
11-02-2005, 10:23 AM
you can't really compare a medical school with the other "schools" set up via this law. med schools are held to different standards than the other schools set up through this law b/c they don't put out manicurists or mechanics so it is conceivable that they may make a change prohibiting medical schools because of the nature of the product. the UK set up is differnt than the US which depends heavily on our schools....the amount of grads that take the plab is meaningless.

there is no way to interpret it either way right now, hopefully it will be a positive for the school for the students sake.

bts4202
11-02-2005, 11:16 AM
you can't really compare a medical school with the other "schools" set up via this law. med schools are held to different standards than the other schools set up through this law b/c they don't put out manicurists or mechanics so it is conceivable that they may make a change prohibiting medical schools because of the nature of the product. the UK set up is differnt than the US which depends heavily on our schools....the amount of grads that take the plab is meaningless.

there is no way to interpret it either way right now, hopefully it will be a positive for the school for the students sake.

There is really no legal justification for changing the law specifically for medical schools. If the concern is people rotating in UK hospitals, well then that is an entirely different story and has nothing to do with the non-uk schools in england since shady caribb schools rotate in england as well. Making the "danger" to patients the issue is like making the danger of anesthesia the justification for making abortion illegal.

azskeptic
11-02-2005, 11:21 AM
There is really no legal justification for changing the law specifically for medical schools. If the concern is people rotating in UK hospitals, well then that is an entirely different story and has nothing to do with the non-uk schools in england since shady caribb schools rotate in england as well. Making the "danger" to patients the issue is like making the danger of anesthesia the justification for making abortion illegal. The UK needs to evaluate why the US, Canada, Mexico, and most countries have laws against it.

jpryor
11-02-2005, 12:03 PM
Good concise information is always welcomed by listeners. BBC is one of the best.

Nonsense. The little information you have posted already indicates its a hatchet job designed to increase sales by using scare tactics. Witness:

"An undercover investigation found two schools lying .... Matthew Chapman reveals that the founder of a different school..." That would make it three schools, would it not? By using deft wordsmithing they have linked three schools together as liars and they don't have to prove a lie relative to the 3rd school because they didn't actually say it lied. What they did say was that the 3rd school's founder was an "alleged" cheat...without ever elaborating. Well, in that context I can say that this Matthew Chapman is a homosexual communist and anybody who cares to can write "Matthew Chapman is an alleged homosexual communist". It would also seem logical that if, "Hundreds of students from this school get their medical experience in NHS hospitals, and one graduate is currently working as a surgeon, yet there are no official British checks on the quality of the school's teaching", these students would have to be well known to the instructors, distinct from other students and judged by different criteria in order for the statement that "there are no official British checks on the quality". All in all, it sounds like an inflammatory piece of journalism intent on marketing versus ethical reporting..and that's just from a few lines of text. But who knows, this Matthew Chapman may have impressive credentials and can make statements in his own right (without claiming any great expertise by quoting other people...unlike one of the regular skeptics here).

azskeptic
11-02-2005, 12:08 PM
Nonsense. The little information you have posted already indicates its a hatchet job designed to increase sales by using scare tactics. Witness:

"An undercover investigation found two schools lying .... Matthew Chapman reveals that the founder of a different school..." That would make it three schools, would it not? By using deft wordsmithing they have linked three schools together as liars and they don't have to prove a lie relative to the 3rd school because they didn't actually say it lied. What they did say was that the 3rd school's founder was an "alleged" cheat...without ever elaborating. Well, in that context I can say that this Matthew Chapman is a homosexual communist and anybody who cares to can write "Matthew Chapman is an alleged homosexual communist". It would also seem logical that if, "Hundreds of students from this school get their medical experience in NHS hospitals, and one graduate is currently working as a surgeon, yet there are no official British checks on the quality of the school's teaching", these students would have to be well known to the instructors, distinct from other students and judged by different criteria in order for the statement that "there are no official British checks on the quality". All in all, it sounds like an inflammatory piece of journalism intent on marketing versus ethical reporting..and that's just from a few lines of text. But who knows, this Matthew Chapman may have impressive credentials and can make statements in his own right (without claiming any great expertise by quoting other people...unlike one of the regular skeptics here). We shall see.

jpryor
11-02-2005, 12:10 PM
Yes, we shall.

bts4202
11-02-2005, 12:12 PM
The UK needs to evaluate why the US, Canada, Mexico, and most countries have laws against it.

They do not have laws against foriegn school operating on their soil, but they do have laws requiring those schools to have local oversight/accreditation. Were the UK to require some type of evalutation and oversight process, st chris would happily comply. That is a fantastic thing to push for AZ, keep up the good work!

azskeptic
11-02-2005, 01:50 PM
They do not have laws against foriegn school operating on their soil, but they do have laws requiring those schools to have local oversight/accreditation. Were the UK to require some type of evalutation and oversight process, st chris would happily comply. That is a fantastic thing to push for AZ, keep up the good work! Why doesn't SC just comply with the UK medical school laws and inspections and become an approved school?

bts4202
11-02-2005, 01:59 PM
Why doesn't SC just comply with the UK medical school laws and inspections and become an approved school?

St chris already does comply with all UK rules and laws and has been inspected several times by the GMC.

We are proud of our senegal charter and the work that is being done to improve the healthcare system and access to care down there.. why should we abandon it?

OLDPRO
11-02-2005, 02:12 PM
Why doesn't SC just comply with the UK medical school laws and inspections and become an approved school?
AZ how can that be? Can't have a US type curric, no MD, I thought all UK schools are government run? If not Do tell us what the approval process would be? We would listen.:rolleyes:

azskeptic
11-02-2005, 03:42 PM
AZ how can that be? Can't have a US type curric, no MD, I thought all UK schools are government run? If not Do tell us what the approval process would be? We would listen.:rolleyes: Actually that is a question to ask the govt and your administration. But you need approval as a group that it is what you want. BTS seems to prefer the Senegal style system in place.

jpryor
11-02-2005, 03:43 PM
AZ how can that be? Can't have a US type curric, no MD, I thought all UK schools are government run? If not Do tell us what the approval process would be? We would listen.:rolleyes:

That would require Az to acquire some level of expertise. Maybe he can find somebody who has written on the topic by running his search engines.

azskeptic
11-02-2005, 03:44 PM
That would require Az to acquire some level of expertise. Maybe he can find somebody who has written on the topic by running his search engines. Good idea. Thanks

bts4202
11-02-2005, 04:31 PM
Actually that is a question to ask the govt and your administration. But you need approval as a group that it is what you want. BTS seems to prefer the Senegal style system in place.

Absolutely. Uk oversight is great, but we should not give up our senegal charter or senegal projects. I an interviewing for residency right now and i am very proud to talk about senegal and all the things the school does down there when asked. Even though I never went down there myself, it is a really great thing that the school does and I think that everyone in our school should be proud of it IMHO.

amyames
11-02-2005, 05:50 PM
but eventually getting a UK charter doesn't mean St. Chris has to give up the humanatarian projects in Senegal. If St. Chris got UK approval, it could market the school as one that focuses on international medicine such as does the Israel school BGU.

in my opinion, UK approval would be the best thing for the school.....and once this happened, there would be no stopping st. chris

prof
11-02-2005, 07:29 PM
What a fascinating thread. I thought this site was getting boring. I think that since St. Chris is on UK soil that getting UK charter would be a good thing. It would be interesting to know whether they would allow a private UK medical school. I think that Australia now has one. What would be more difficult is that the acquiring of a MD degree in England is a very long process. 6 years for an MBBS and then 3 years for an MD thesis (usually after being a registrar (resident). St. Chris gives the easiest MD degree you can get on UK soil (4 years). Throughout my career when I see people have a UK MD behind their name, it signifies to me that they are really equivalent to a MD/PhD or higher depending on the school. If St. Chris wants to meld into the UK landscape they should offer a MBBS. I think this can be done as a postbachelors four year program, since the Australian National Universities new medical program is a four year MBBS. I am going to wonder how british physicians will respond to St. Chris graduates working in their hospitals as colleagues, when they have MD behind their name, and they get asked about their contribution to scholarship and their expertise in a research field. Or maybe most of the St. Chris students will end up in the States anyway. It just seems wrong to have the St. Chris students study for four years on UK soil and not give them the MBBS, like other UK medical students. I would be interested in knowing if there is a government medical school in senegal and what degree they give. Most british commonwealth countries except Canada give the MBBS. Even the most noncontroversial school in the Carribean, University of West Indies give the MBBS.

bts4202
11-02-2005, 08:58 PM
What a fascinating thread. I thought this site was getting boring. I think that since St. Chris is on UK soil that getting UK charter would be a good thing. It would be interesting to know whether they would allow a private UK medical school. I think that Australia now has one. What would be more difficult is that the acquiring of a MD degree in England is a very long process. 6 years for an MBBS and then 3 years for an MD thesis (usually after being a registrar (resident). St. Chris gives the easiest MD degree you can get on UK soil (4 years). Throughout my career when I see people have a UK MD behind their name, it signifies to me that they are really equivalent to a MD/PhD or higher depending on the school. If St. Chris wants to meld into the UK landscape they should offer a MBBS. I think this can be done as a postbachelors four year program, since the Australian National Universities new medical program is a four year MBBS. I am going to wonder how british physicians will respond to St. Chris graduates working in their hospitals as colleagues, when they have MD behind their name, and they get asked about their contribution to scholarship and their expertise in a research field. Or maybe most of the St. Chris students will end up in the States anyway. It just seems wrong to have the St. Chris students study for four years on UK soil and not give them the MBBS, like other UK medical students. I would be interested in knowing if there is a government medical school in senegal and what degree they give. Most british commonwealth countries except Canada give the MBBS. Even the most noncontroversial school in the Carribean, University of West Indies give the MBBS.

You are absolutely correct, however, you make one fatal flaw. In the Uk, an MBBS is an undergraduate degree (5-6 years). In the US and IMG market, the MD is usually a post graduate degree (8 years). Time wise, the UK MD has studied about the same amount of time as a US MD (8-9 years vs 8 years respectively).

diogenes
11-03-2005, 01:37 AM
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,9830,1392330,00.html

Links to story earlier in the year about 2 proposed new private med. schools.
With these in the air; several recently setup government-funded schools; and new 4year post-grad. medical courses, the time might well be favourable for St.Chris. to apply for U.K. approval (if they thought it was worthwhile).

diogenes
11-03-2005, 01:47 AM
I wouldn't hold out much hope for a seious in-depth discussion of the issues on BBC radio 5. It's a popular station which is unlikely to risk stretching its listeners' short attention span by a comprehensive treatment of complex issues of approval and licensure (as have been aired on VMD in this thread).

azskeptic
11-03-2005, 09:19 AM
I wouldn't hold out much hope for a seious in-depth discussion of the issues on BBC radio 5. It's a popular station which is unlikely to risk stretching its listeners' short attention span by a comprehensive treatment of complex issues of approval and licensure (as have been aired on VMD in this thread).

Lets hope that the schools mentioned respond with factual information about the issues beyond the personalities issues. Lets see some proof of the humanitarian support that is being given to West Africa. Rather than singing the old Beach Boys song "Be True To Your School" find the answers to the questions presented and respond to them.

Attacking the messenger of bad news doesn't work in medicine or in real life. The important thing is to figure out the type of cancer you are working with, not getting even or discrediting the person who alerts you to the cancer.

What counts for you as students is what is real about the charter issue, real qualifications and backgrounds of administration/staff, and what the affects will be with state licensing. I believe I personally know but lets see what the show presents.

jpryor
11-03-2005, 12:11 PM
The important thing is to figure out the type of cancer you are working with, not getting even or discrediting the person who alerts you to the cancer.

But you also have to worry about the pontificating poseurs who claim everything is going to kill you.

azskeptic
11-03-2005, 12:14 PM
But you also have to worry about the pontificating poseurs who claim everything is going to kill you. That is why you need a qualified opinion from a govt agency or 2. Imagine you'll see that at some point.

azskeptic
11-03-2005, 01:10 PM
Does anyone know when St. Chris-Senegal received its charter? Has anyone seen the actual charter?

azskeptic
11-03-2005, 04:51 PM
Does anyone know when St. Chris-Senegal received its charter? Has anyone seen the actual charter?

http://www.valuemd.com/st-christophers-college-medicine/47193-gmc-website-change-status-st-chris.html

tanisha
11-03-2005, 04:51 PM
bts i know that you absolutely love st chris and are in love with it. i totally get it, however you seem to have a problem with realistically facing truth for what it is. i was not there when bbc made an apperance on campus but on this forum you are the only one who seems to turn the other cheek when it is so obvious that st. chris was one of the schools that will be mentioned. perhaps it may not be however, you need to be prepared to accept the fact that it just might be. I do sincerely apologize for bursting your bubble, you say things like "it could be good for the school" or "st. chris itself was not mentioned" honey get with the program. you can say that i came back on here to bash or to attack, but truthfully speaking I did not. Now, you can close your eyes and wish st. chris is the best of the best and will not get dogged on the news or turn your back on it. but whether you decide to go left or right the issue still lies in existence. yes, bad publicity is good but only for celebrities never for a school, especially a foreign school, that is chartered in senegal and operates in luton. come on... you cannot tell me that you are that naive.


Actually, they can not close the "loophole", because there actually is no loophole. There is an explicit law that specifically permits foriegn schools to operate campuses on british soil so long as they are very clear they are not issuing british degrees. The reason MCL was closed was because of that very reason, they were lying to students. If they were to change that law they would displace thousands upon thousands of students who attend schools with a similar set up to st chris, but teaching other subjects.

If this radio show found some other schools lying, then I am sure the GMC will act. However, any real discussion would be balanced and include both sides. If they were unable to find st chris doing anything wrong and can only snipe at us with unsubstantiated garbage like "we hear the founder cheated in college" or sensationalistic crap like "their 5th semester review course organizer in the US had his medical license revoked for having sexual relations in pulblic", then I would not really give it a whole lot of credibility. Real news sources must actually confirm their data and don't get away with reporting completely uncorroborated gossip by prefacing it with the word "allegedly".

While any negative press would be unwelcome, I am seriously unconcerned about this radio shows effect on st chris as a whole.

maximillian genossa
11-03-2005, 06:19 PM
St chris already does comply with all UK rules and laws and has been inspected several times by the GMC.

We are proud of our senegal charter and the work that is being done to improve the healthcare system and access to care down there.. why should we abandon it?
Really? that is ineteresting that a school that complies with all the UK rules is now being investigated it's affiliation to its Charter School in Senegal and until such investigation is complete the GMC has suspended its acceptance of medical degrees awarded by this institution and/or any of its affiliations.(http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/studying_medicine_at_undergraduate_level.asp) Now that's what I call amusing, or should I say confusing?

BTS, don't get me wrong, I am normally devils advocate, but this time I will rather sit dow and see what happens.

Now that you mention UK Rules and Regulations (St chris already does comply with all UK rules and laws and has been inspected several times by the GMC.) pertaining their operation in UK soil, can you quote me which are those rules and regulations and how St. Chris is complying? When was the last inspection that you mentioned? I am just curious, since you mentioned it I assume you know them. I don't , that is why I am asking you.(I imagine you know)

You can post them here, for our cultural enrichment, or PM them to me, either way, I will be awaiting for them, because this is good smack.

azskeptic
11-03-2005, 06:31 PM
But you also have to worry about the pontificating poseurs who claim everything is going to kill you. But sometimes I appear to be right in the face of personal attacks.

azskeptic
11-03-2005, 06:47 PM
want to predict how long it will take Senegal to respond to England's questions? 1 week, 3 months,6 months?

maximillian genossa
11-03-2005, 06:59 PM
6 months regular mail, 3 months priority, 1 month fed-ex or DHL.

1 week.....in our wildest dreams.

jpryor
11-04-2005, 08:55 AM
But sometimes I appear to be right in the face of personal attacks.

Don't get me wrong, Az. If you went about your postings in an ethical manner, it wouldn't bother me in the least. Considering I have zero interest in St. Christopher, my only isue is your slanted efforts to denigrate the school. I have no doubt that SC has a lot of room for improvement. But it deserves to be treated fairly and you don't do that.

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 09:19 AM
Don't get me wrong, Az. If you went about your postings in an ethical manner, it wouldn't bother me in the least. Considering I have zero interest in St. Christopher, my only isue is your slanted efforts to denigrate the school. I have no doubt that SC has a lot of room for improvement. But it deserves to be treated fairly and you don't do that. supplying information allows you to make a fair judgement for yourself.

jpryor
11-04-2005, 09:35 AM
supplying information allows you to make a fair judgement for yourself.

If you are trying to hold up your recent postings as some sort of benevolent "supplying of information" then you are either living in denial or are choosing to go down swinging.

Some of these kids will look only at the surface and believe much of what you say. But this latest attempt of yours is so blatant that I think many will become skeptical of you and your efforts.

Nobody denies that that it is good to discuss schools' claims and to challenge them. That is the purpose of this web site, is it not? I've never objected to any fair criticism, regardless of the source. But you cross the line too frequently to go unchallenged.

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 10:29 AM
If you are trying to hold up your recent postings as some sort of benevolent "supplying of information" then you are either living in denial or are choosing to go down swinging.

Some of these kids will look only at the surface and believe much of what you say. But this latest attempt of yours is so blatant that I think many will become skeptical of you and your efforts.

Nobody denies that that it is good to discuss schools' claims and to challenge them. That is the purpose of this web site, is it not? I've never objected to any fair criticism, regardless of the source. But you cross the line too frequently to go unchallenged. The kids can look at your history of posts and see you challenge me constantly so no change in that for sure.

mcgrady
11-04-2005, 11:13 AM
i agree with u jpryor!!!!

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 11:20 AM
i agree with u jpryor!!!! ok, your approval of jpryor noted

mcgrady
11-04-2005, 11:25 AM
yes, i'm soooooooooooooooooo proud u noted as well!!!!!!!!!!!

Newbie1
11-04-2005, 03:58 PM
AZSkeptic,
Yes, I'm a Newbie. Amazing how the number of posts you make increases your credibility (and perhaps your IQ)

If I could perhaps re-phrase a couple of jpryor's concerns as I read them, I see them as:

1. You seem to have a vendetta against most of the schools with forums on this web page. What's behind this? Forgive me if I doubt your motives are purely altruistic. Could you provide us with your personal mission statement? We're all supposed to have one, you know, to keep up focused on the prize we desire. I daresay most if not all of the medical students attending these schools could provide their mission statement in a heartbeat. And, while for some it may be "To spend as much of my parents' money while partying in the Caribbean/UK/wherever, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most simply want to "be a doctor", and are pursuing that as best they can. What's yours? Perhaps to be the next Green Party Presidential candidate? the Ralph Nader of medical education? Should you succeed in shutting down some of these school, do you have a strategy to - at a minimum -grandfather in current students and alumni in residency for licensing? Or do you care? You might have more allies if you made your position clear (assuming it's a non-threatening one.)

2. The journal articles, tv stories, and radio interviews that you post links to seem to have a definite slant to them, to say the least. If you are, as you say, just providing facts, why not - on occasion - post links to positive IMG stories? I would hope the reason for this is not that you in fact provide the journalists with the leads, and even the complete stories, with just enough controversy to make for "interesting news".

To sum it up, if you want to be viewed as the "expert", providing the general public with information on how and why you feel you became to be such is important.

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 04:06 PM
AZSkeptic,
Yes, I'm a Newbie. Amazing how the number of posts you make increases your credibility (and perhaps your IQ)

If I could perhaps re-phrase a couple of jpryor's concerns as I read them, I see them as:

1. You seem to have a vendetta against most of the schools with forums on this web page. What's behind this? Forgive me if I doubt your motives are purely altruistic. Could you provide us with your personal mission statement? We're all supposed to have one, you know, to keep up focused on the prize we desire. I daresay most if not all of the medical students attending these schools could provide their mission statement in a heartbeat. And, while for some it may be "To spend as much of my parents' money while partying in the Caribbean/UK/wherever, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most simply want to "be a doctor", and are pursuing that as best they can. What's yours? Perhaps to be the next Green Party Presidential candidate? the Ralph Nader of medical education? Should you succeed in shutting down some of these school, do you have a strategy to - at a minimum -grandfather in current students and alumni in residency for licensing? Or do you care? You might have more allies if you made your position clear (assuming it's a non-threatening one.)

2. The journal articles, tv stories, and radio interviews that you post links to seem to have a definite slant to them, to say the least. If you are, as you say, just providing facts, why not - on occasion - post links to positive IMG stories? I would hope the reason for this is not that you in fact provide the journalists with the leads, and even the complete stories, with just enough controversy to make for "interesting news".

To sum it up, if you want to be viewed as the "expert", providing the general public with information on how and why you feel you became to be such is important. I post ALL links that show up in my search engines which are keyed to word groups like foreign medical school, offshore medical school. I post positive articles (look among my nearly 4000 and you'll find articles that reflect achievements of people who have gone to offshore schools). My guess is that the press reflects more negative articles than positive articles. WHo knows.

My goal? Bring to the attention of those who make decisions deficients in programs and consumer fraud and get them corrected. Help see that poor programs don't hurt all offshore programs. Get the information out and about.

Mission statement: Provide information to the public and govt agencies on offshore medical school education, assist in changing that which isn't equivalent to established systems that work, and protecting the public.

Tell us more about yourself? How have you helped offshore schools improve their performance? improve the honesty of administrations in providing information to their students? assist medical boards and govt. agencies in gathering information? What is your mission statement?

One more thing: 28% of our doctors are educated offshore. It is an important part of our healthcare system and needs to be looked at. I am quite pleased that some others are seeing the concern and beginning to react to it. It is a major project and I am not the only one working in the field. I am not Ralph Nader (He has Public Citizen which is a powerful group) but merely a consumer of health products who cares enough to get involved as a volunteer. I've been asked to address a major group in Europe in 2006 of educators and will work on honing a program to help solve some of the problems. My contribution to the solution and work on defining a mission statement, a work in progress.

azskeptic

Newbie1
11-04-2005, 04:13 PM
AZSK,
By making yourself so public, you open yourself to be questioned. I, on the other hand, have not made myself such a figure of notoriety, and thus am not compelled to answer you. SO, let's not change the subject.

Such a noble mission. What about those current students? Apparently you don't care?

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 04:15 PM
someone sent this via PM to me...it is an interesting question.

Why are people asking YOU about this stuff?? Why aren't they asking if
the administrator is telling the truth? If he is a cheater? If there is a charter? the questions that the BBC is asking suppose we'll know more on Sunday

The focus on me is wasting time. I am not the person who directly affects you.

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 04:17 PM
AZSK,
By making yourself so public, you open yourself to be questioned. I, on the other hand, have not made myself such a figure of notoriety, and thus am not compelled to answer you. SO, let's not change the subject.

Such a noble mission. What about those current students? Apparently you don't care? I daily get thanks from students for things I do for them. I am not in any shape or form involved in any medical school or administration and I care; do the administrators that the BBC is talking about care? I don't mind the questions; that is how people,myself included, learn.

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 07:30 PM
AZSK,
By making yourself so public, you open yourself to be questioned. I, on the other hand, have not made myself such a figure of notoriety, and thus am not compelled to answer you. SO, let's not change the subject.

Such a noble mission. What about those current students? Apparently you don't care? In elementary school you were taught that you need to share. If you don't share, no one will want to answer your questions. I haven't made myself notorious.....those who aren't happy with what I find and others act upon are screaming at me and avoiding the issues; how do you fix the problems? Attacking the person who tells you what is being seen won't fix the problem.

In terms of students at any of the 10 offshore schools in the UK, one cares. There are some who unknowingly have got themselves into situations they don't want. Many are content with their situation because they believe it is the best for them. As adults we are all responsible for our actions and decisions: lets hope that the issues raised by the BBC and others are dealt with by the schools to the benefits of the students. Fixing what is wrong is what we should be focusing on,not that I am an eggman by trade (which I am proud of) or questioning my motives or background. So what? doesn't matter does it. I am not the person who has the power to fix these things; the govt does and has the responsibility. I've been upfront about being an eggman...who are you? Tell us about your concern for the students and what you are doing to fix the problems.

Smythe
11-04-2005, 07:53 PM
http://musicalpeace.org/vyoma/Photos/Stuff/i_am_the_eggman.jpg


I am the Eggman
They are the Eggmen
I am the Walrus--koo koo koo kachoo!
koo koo koo kachoo!
koo koo kachoo koo koo koo kachoo koo koo!
Jooba jooba jooba
Jooba jooba
Jooba jooba jooba
Jooba jooba
Jooba jooba

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 07:58 PM
http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs059/1101103488129/img/2.gif?a=1101124445287

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 08:06 PM
You know sometimes it helps others to know your living philosophy. I personally have always liked Sheldon Kopps' work...here is how I would like to live but am not perfect at yet:

An Eschatological Laundry List:
A Partial Register of the 927 (or was it 928?) Eternal Truths
1. This is it.
2. There are no hidden meanings.
3. You canít get there from here, and besides thereís no place else to go.
4. We are all already dying and we will be dead for a long time.
5. Nothing lasts.
6. There is no way of getting all you want.
7. You canít have anything unless you let go of it.
8. You only get to keep what you give away.
9. There is no particular reason why you lost out on some things.
10. The world is not necessarily just. Being good often does not pay off and there is no compensation for misfortune.
11. You have a responsibility to do your best nonetheless.
12. It is a random universe to which we bring meaning.
13. You donít really control anything.
14. You canít make anyone love you.
15. No one is any stronger or any weaker than anyone else.
16. Everyone is, in his own way, vulnerable.
17. There are no great men.
18. If you have a hero, look again; you have diminished yourself in some way.
19. Everyone lies, cheats, pretends (yes, you too, and most certainly I myself).
20. All evil is potential vitality in need of transformation.
21. All of you is worth something, if you will only own it.
22. Progress is an illusion.
23. Evil can be displaced, but never eradicated, as all solutions breed new problems.
24. Yet it is necessary to keep on struggling toward solution.
25. Childhood is a nightmare.
26. But it is so very hard to be an on-your-own, take-care-of-yourself grown-up.
27. Each of us is ultimately alone.
28. The most important things each man must do for himself.
29. Love is not enough, but it sure helps.
30. We have only ourselves, and one another. That may not be much, but thatís all there is.
31. How strange that so often it all seems worth it.
32. We must live within the ambiguity of partial freedom, partial power and partial knowledge.
33. All important decisions must be made on the basis of insufficient data.
34. Yet we are responsible for everything we do.
35. No excuses will be accepted.
36. You can run, but you canít hide.
37. It is most important to run out of scapegoats.
38. We must learn the power of living with our helplessness.
39. The only victory lies in surrender to oneself.
40. All of the significant battles are waged within the self.
41. You are free to do whatever you like. You need only face the consequences.
42. What do you know for sureÖanyway?
43. Learn to forgive yourself, again and again and again and againÖ.

###
11-04-2005, 08:07 PM
...........................

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 08:15 PM
I would be interested to learn what, exactly, is the problem that is being solved? Does quality suffer as a result of IMGs? Has there been some documented difference in outcomes?

It seems to me that there are pretty good processes in place to insure competency (USMLE, required residency training in the US, board exams). In general I think it is better to focus on WHAT people should know (and assess competency) than to worry about HOW they get there. There are many paths to competency.

I think it would be a better use of resources to focus on ways to assess outcomes rather than to worry the internal details of programs. In the end, the market will sort of the most effective practices based on outcomes. Those who have effective programs will survive because they will be able to meet competency standards. It seems to me that you are concerned that the current standards are insufficient protection for consumers. Actually I was written a letter today by a med school professor who reminded me that USMLE's are just proof that you can do well at testing and since many students are not going back to the US don't protect other countries. Another professor wrote me that in the absence of equivalent oversight of schools,like done by the LCME and similiar groups, as a society the US isn't doing its jobs if it allows people to come to the US. One instructor called me and said something to the effect that US med schools throw alot of people out of the schools for things other than grades but schools for profit don't seem to do it in the same way. Again, I am not the one who raised the initial question in England. Their govt. is asking questions. We'll probably learn more on Sunday as to what they want to know from the non-UK chartered schools. You are attending school in a system that is highly monitored also with similiar systems to the US/Canada; can you see a difference between its system and ones in other areas?

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 08:20 PM
...We'll probably learn more on Sunday... Not likely, the GMC isn't open on Sunday to the best of my knowledge. If you are talking about that BBC radio program, I don't see that as being endorsed or recognized as being anything other than entertainment.

The individual mentioned on the BBC website that "investigated" appears to have quite a few sensationalistic stories to his credit, light on news, heavy on fluff, so I wouldn't take what he says as divine inspiration, all he seems to be interested in is getting people to tune in.

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 08:21 PM
http://musicalpeace.org/vyoma/Photos/Stuff/i_am_the_eggman.jpg

Nah, it would take at least 2-3 of this guy to make a single AZ...

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 08:25 PM
Not likely, the GMC isn't open on Sunday to the best of my knowledge. If you are talking about that BBC radio program, I don't see that as being endorsed or recognized as being anything other than entertainment. Radio,TV, its all the same..entertainment and information sometimes. Lets wait and see.

stateagency
11-04-2005, 08:27 PM
Keep your fingers crossed; there might not be a Luton SCCM on Monday November 7! I am sorry to say it!

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 08:33 PM
I would be interested to learn what, exactly, is the problem that is being solved? Does quality suffer as a result of IMGs? Has there been some documented difference in outcomes?

It seems to me that there are pretty good processes in place to insure competency (USMLE, required residency training in the US, board exams). In general I think it is better to focus on WHAT people should know (and assess competency) than to worry about HOW they get there. There are many paths to competency.

I think it would be a better use of resources to focus on ways to assess outcomes rather than to worry the internal details of programs. In the end, the market will sort of the most effective practices based on outcomes. Those who have effective programs will survive because they will be able to meet competency standards. It seems to me that you are concerned that the current standards are insufficient protection for consumers.I agree with your assessment of the situation.

Also, rather than having investigational vigilantes pretending to be altruistic individuals that are only interested in the public good, when a lot of it really has to do with hearing themselves talk, getting people to tune in to their shows, or read their blurbs in the local paper, wouldn't it make more sense to contact the authorities responsible for the regulation of this system directly and discuss ideas, focus on them...?

People, in general, donít give a crap what has to be said about this, unless it takes a dollar/puts a dollar into their pocket, they trust in their government to go what is right by themÖ

It seems like a lot of self-aggrandizement and wasted effort to do this in such a roundabout way...

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 08:34 PM
Keep your fingers crossed; there might not be a Luton SCCM on Monday November 7! I am sorry to say it!Not likely, troll

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 08:37 PM
I agree with your assessment of the situation.

Also, rather than having investigational vigilantes pretending to be altruistic individuals that are only interested in the public good, when a lot of it really has to do with hearing themselves talk, getting people to tune in to their shows, or read their blurbs in the local paper, wouldn't it make more sense to contact the authorities responsible for the regulation of this system directly and discuss ideas, focus on them...?

People, in general, donít give a crap what has to be said about this, unless it takes a dollar/puts a dollar into their pocket, they trust in their government to go what is right by themÖ

It seems like a lot of self-aggrandizement and wasted effort to do this in such a roundabout way... Hmmm, you can't be anymore direct than I have. I've addressed the US administrators, am scheduled to address all of the Europe ones next year and have been invited to a rather large meeting in the spring at another group. They all asked me; I didn't ask them. I know all of the players in the internatonal scene. I only am on tv/radio/newspapers/magazines when they ask; I don't have a PR firm. Absolutely, we should all applaud our officials in the countries who are working on these issues.

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 08:38 PM
Radio,TV, its all the same..entertainment and information sometimes.Entertainment and information of any actual quality are typically mutually exclusive.

Information comes from respected sources, such as peer-reviews journals, government agencies, and respected academic institutions, not talk radio shows, "Hard Copy" TV shows, or guys who like to post messages on internet forums.

A good example is this website, entertainment, not information.

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 08:42 PM
Entertainment and information of any actual quality are typically mutually exclusive.

Information comes from respected sources, such as peer-reviews journals, government agencies, and respected academic institutions, not talk radio shows, "Hard Copy" TV shows, or guys who like to post messages on internet forums.

A good example is this website, entertainment, not information. I said it in the Chronicle of Higher Education last week....they shouldn't have to have an eggman doing it but in the absence of someone official I'll have to do.......they'll eventually replace me with an agency as a clearinghouse and I'll go to another project. I'm just a temporary fill in until the govts. get a system in place.

stateagency
11-04-2005, 08:47 PM
You are both in jeopardy. Take it from a reliable entity. You have been targets. I am now taking aim.

stateagency
11-04-2005, 08:49 PM
You are currently recruiting for
SABA and AUA correct?

Be careful now...

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 08:53 PM
You are both in jeopardy. Take it from a reliable entity. You have been targets. I am now taking aim. Tell us more.

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 08:53 PM
I said it in the Chronicle of Higher Education last week....they shouldn't have to have an eggman doing it but in the absence of someone official I'll have to do.......they'll eventually replace me with an agency as a clearinghouse and I'll go to another project. I'm just a temporary fill in until the govts. get a system in place.I'm glad you feel you are qualified not only to judge that the current system is insufficient, but to fill that position personally until further notice... Wouldn't it make more sense to hand this off to someone else that has the experience, education, and impartiality necessary to perform this function properly? Surely, if it is as vital and urgent as you seem portray, that you could find someone with ease that would want to take up this crusade, no? You have had a sufficient amount of time to do this by now, or does your vanity prevent you from stepping aside and letting someone more appropraite assume that position?

I think the answer to all of these questions are quite obvious...

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 08:57 PM
You are currently recruiting for
SABA and AUA correct?

Be careful now... Ok, lets go over this again I do not recruit,do not get paid, by medical schools for what I do. Easy way to attempt to smear but not accurate. Who pays you to attack?

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 08:59 PM
I'm glad you feel you are qualified not only to judge that the current system is insufficient, but to fill that position personally until further notice... Wouldn't it make more sense to hand this off to someone else that has the experience, education, and impartiality necessary to perform this function properly? Surely, if it is as vital and urgent as you seem portray, that you could find someone with ease that would want to take up this crusade, no? You have had a sufficient amount of time to do this by now, or does your vanity prevent you from stepping aside and letting someone more appropraite assume that position?

I think the answer to all of these questions are quite obvious...
Oh, no the A-Team hasn't surfaced yet that will do this. No vanity involved. Thanks for thinking of me though. You want to help? start volunteering.

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 09:01 PM
Ok, lets go over this again I do not recruit,do not get paid, by medical schools for what I do. Easy way to attempt to smear but not accurate. Who pays you to attack? If you really want people to seriously believe that you are as impartial as you say you are, publicly release your complete federal income tax filings, so everyone can see that you "investigations" aren't being funded by an undisclosed third party...

If you want to be a public figure, put it all out there for the public to see. If you aren't hiding anything, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Letís see if you step up, but I think we all know the answer to this.

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 09:03 PM
Oh, no the A-Team hasn't surfaced yet that will do this. No vanity involved. Thanks for thinking of me though. You want to help? start volunteering. Obviously, if no one of any significant reputation in this field has risen to fill this position, it would seem that they don't think it has any substance...

Is there any other way to look at it?

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 09:06 PM
If you really want people to seriously believe that you are as impartial as you say you are, publicly release your complete federal income tax filings, so everyone can see that you "investigations" aren't being funded by an undisclosed third party...

If you want to be a public figure, put it all out there for the public to see. If you aren't hiding anything, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Letís see if you step up, but I think we all know the answer to this. I'm not running for office, am a volunteer, and no thanks..I don't feel a need to tell you what I make but I freely tell you I am not employed by a medical school or group of medical schools. But you wouldn't believe me even if you saw my tax returns. So best to just go on positioning yourself indignantly at 3 a.m. Luton time.

azskeptic
11-04-2005, 09:07 PM
Obviously, if no one of any significant reputation in this field has risen to fill this position, it would seem that they don't think it has any substance...

Is there any other way to look at it? But there seems to be alot of action currently on the scene so maybe some agencies will appear. Suppose we can wait and see who comes along in the next year.

Smythe
11-04-2005, 09:11 PM
If you really want people to seriously believe that you are as impartial as you say you are, publicly release your complete federal income tax filings, so everyone can see that you "investigations" aren't being funded by an undisclosed third party...

If you want to be a public figure, put it all out there for the public to see. If you aren't hiding anything, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Letís see if you step up, but I think we all know the answer to this.

does it really matter if he is impartial, as long as he is factual?

his theoretical desires to see any school succeed or fail means nothing as long as his sources and information can be verified. seems to me that the cat always attaches the link for people to read independantly and make their own decision. Seems OK to me

smearing this guy won't make your present situation change, but it does appear to be some form of catharsis to you folks.
Beat the messenger, ignore the message?
whatever gives you a charge
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/mbisson/cruise-animated.gif

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 09:27 PM
I freely tell you I am not employed by a medical school or group of medical schoolsThis really doesn't tell us much of anything.

It would be a better if you were able to say "I don't receive any monies, items or objects of value, or services from any entity, party, group, school, or organization for any time, efforts, or expenditures I may incur as a result of research, investigations, writings, appearances, or speeches involving medical education, foreign medical schools, regulation of the above, or any associated, or tangentially related topic"

But I have a strong feeling you couldn't honestly say that...
But you wouldn't believe me even if you saw my tax returns.. So you can read minds now as well?

If you released your federal income tax filings, there wouldn't be any choice but to believe you...

It's too bad you apparently have something to hide...

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 09:32 PM
does it really matter if he is impartial, as long as he is factual?Care to list what information he has revealed about St. Chris that is pure fact, without a hint of conjecture, hearsay, or nonsense, and can easily be supported by a reputable source of information?

Smythe
11-04-2005, 09:39 PM
Care to list what information he has revealed about St. Chris that is pure fact, without a hint of conjecture, hearsay, or nonsense, and can easily be supported by a reputable source of information?

the only fact I need is that graduates are currently suspended from practicing in the Uk pending investigation and the school is currently under investigation. I see he's already posted that factual link which I enjoyed reading

Smythe
11-04-2005, 09:41 PM
It would be a better if you were able to say "I don't receive any monies, items or objects of value, or services from any entity, party, group, school, or organization for any time, efforts, or expenditures I may incur as a result of research, investigations, writings, appearances, or speeches involving medical education, foreign medical schools, regulation of the above, or any associated, or tangentially related topic"

But I have a strong feeling you couldn't honestly say that...


If the guy took bribes I am sure he would be a St Christopher cheerleader

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 09:42 PM
the only fact I need is that graduates are currently suspended and the school is currently under investigation The people who are denying it don't know what they are talking about.

And the fact that they have suspended taking our graduates until the conclusion of their invesitgation means exactly what?

The only fact you need is that? Either you enjoy being ignorant, or you couldn't come up with anything else of substance? Maybe both?

Smythe
11-04-2005, 09:51 PM
And the fact that they have suspended taking our graduates until the conclusion of their invesitgation means exactly what?



why don't you apply for a job. you'll find out

for your reading pleasure
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=suspended

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ineligible

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=banned


and regarding azskeptic, please see definition #2
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=transference

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 09:52 PM
why don't you apply for a job. you'll find outWhy don't you just tell us?

Smythe
11-04-2005, 09:58 PM
Why don't you just tell us?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ineligible

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=up%20the%20creek%20%28without%20a%20paddle%29

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 10:01 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ineligible

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=up%20the%20creek%20%28without%20a%20paddle%29 So what you are basically saying is you have no idea what it means.

Smythe
11-04-2005, 10:35 PM
So what you are basically saying is you have no idea what it means.

doesn't matter if I know what it means. I'm not the one attending a school under investigation. I think you'd better bone up on what it means

neilc
11-04-2005, 10:42 PM
i love it....everyone bickering over who is getting paid by whom. whee. that is clearly not the issue.

the fact is, the GMC felt compelled to investigate all of the schools operating on UK soil, and i can assure you that they are not using the eggman as the head consultant. so, exactly how is a discussion about his tax forms (yeah, disclose your tax forms, az. that is reasonable, sure....) pertinent?

now, you have the right to be optimistic, or pessimistic about the pending investigation. but, to most it would seem a bit disconcerting at the very least. so, shouldn't that be the issue under discussion???

or does it make everyone feel better to ignore (yet again) the issue and resort to distraction and diversion?

Nebakanezer
11-04-2005, 10:45 PM
or does it make everyone feel better to ignore (yet again) the issue and resort to distraction and diversion?That's why I started a different thread for that discussion.

This thread is mostly a joke anyway, people are trying to say the sky is falling when none of us has any idea what it means for us. I can understand discussing it as disconcerting or annoying, but trying to say that it's good or bad is stupid, as none of us know the answer and none of us work for the GMC.

Newbie1
11-04-2005, 11:08 PM
I would be interested to learn what, exactly, is the problem that is being solved? Does quality suffer as a result of IMGs? Has there been some documented difference in outcomes?

It seems to me that there are pretty good processes in place to insure competency (USMLE, required residency training in the US, board exams). In general I think it is better to focus on WHAT people should know (and assess competency) than to worry about HOW they get there. There are many paths to competency.

I think it would be a better use of resources to focus on ways to assess outcomes rather than to worry the internal details of programs. In the end, the market will sort of the most effective practices based on outcomes. Those who have effective programs will survive because they will be able to meet competency standards. It seems to me that you are concerned that the current standards are insufficient protection for consumers.

Exactly!!! USMLE1 tests Basic Sciences. A well-defined body of knowledge. Much as the CPA Exam and the Bar do. But Step I is just that - the 1st step. After that, at least for Carib students, clinical rotations occur side by side with US Med Students. Then they take the same Step II. Finally, IMGs typically must do extra residency time. Quite a weeding out process.

It's amazing how AZSK receives emails from (fill in the blank...students/policy makers/doctors) just today that support his position on (fill in the blank...shutting down schools and leaving students in the cold/requiring all states to follow CA guidelines/the one and only one path to MD is the one established by him). This is a contentious issue. So, obviously there will be those who don't share our assessment of the current process and agree with an egg salesman.

FDL1
11-04-2005, 11:14 PM
Actually I was written a letter today by a med school professor who reminded me that USMLE's are just proof that you can do well at testing and since many students are not going back to the US don't protect other countries. Another professor wrote me that in the absence of equivalent oversight of schools,like done by the LCME and similiar groups, as a society the US isn't doing its jobs if it allows people to come to the US. One instructor called me and said something to the effect that US med schools throw alot of people out of the schools for things other than grades but schools for profit don't seem to do it in the same way. Again, I am not the one who raised the initial question in England. Their govt. is asking questions. We'll probably learn more on Sunday as to what they want to know from the non-UK chartered schools. You are attending school in a system that is highly monitored also with similiar systems to the US/Canada; can you see a difference between its system and ones in other areas?


Yeah, all that happened today! Test taking skills?? That alone proves you have NO clue what you're talking about. The USMLE step 1 is not A test, it's THE test. You can't GUESS your way though, what are you thinking? This is the hardest exam any of us will ever take. Good students even do badly on it. It's an impossibility for a bad student to bluff his way through. Those kind of statements are an insult to all those who have been tried by fire.

microphage
11-04-2005, 11:15 PM
Exactly!!! USMLE1 tests Basic Sciences. A well-defined body of knowledge. Much as the CPA Exam and the Bar do. But Step I is just that - the 1st step. After that, at least for Carib students, clinical rotations occur side by side with US Med Students. Then they take the same Step II. Finally, IMGs typically must do extra residency time. Quite a weeding out process.

It's amazing how AZSK receives emails from (fill in the blank...students/policy makers/doctors) just today that support his position on (fill in the blank...shutting down schools and leaving students in the cold/requiring all states to follow CA guidelines/the one and only one path to MD is the one established by him). This is a contentious issue. So, obviously there will be those who don't share our assessment of the current process and agree with an egg salesman.

all this coming from a newbie... :lol:

FDL1
11-04-2005, 11:28 PM
Exactly!!! USMLE1 tests Basic Sciences. A well-defined body of knowledge. Much as the CPA Exam and the Bar do. But Step I is just that - the 1st step. After that, at least for Carib students, clinical rotations occur side by side with US Med Students. Then they take the same Step II. Finally, IMGs typically must do extra residency time. Quite a weeding out process.

It's amazing how AZSK receives emails from (fill in the blank...students/policy makers/doctors) just today that support his position on (fill in the blank...shutting down schools and leaving students in the cold/requiring all states to follow CA guidelines/the one and only one path to MD is the one established by him). This is a contentious issue. So, obviously there will be those who don't share our assessment of the current process and agree with an egg salesman.


Yeah, we learn a lot, but it's in ugly buildings, and it's hot. So, it doesn't count. :rolleyes: We're just good at testing. Well, SOME testing, we can somehow ace the USMLE, but we can't do well enough on the MCAT to get into a US school. Go figure.

Newbie1
11-04-2005, 11:31 PM
In elementary school you were taught that you need to share. If you don't share, no one will want to answer your questions. I haven't made myself notorious.....those who aren't happy with what I find and others act upon are screaming at me and avoiding the issues; how do you fix the problems? Attacking the person who tells you what is being seen won't fix the problem.

In terms of students at any of the 10 offshore schools in the UK, one cares. There are some who unknowingly have got themselves into situations they don't want. Many are content with their situation because they believe it is the best for them. As adults we are all responsible for our actions and decisions: lets hope that the issues raised by the BBC and others are dealt with by the schools to the benefits of the students. Fixing what is wrong is what we should be focusing on,not that I am an eggman by trade (which I am proud of) or questioning my motives or background. So what? doesn't matter does it. I am not the person who has the power to fix these things; the govt does and has the responsibility. I've been upfront about being an eggman...who are you? Tell us about your concern for the students and what you are doing to fix the problems.

OK. I'll engage a little more. I am a PhD candidate in Health Policy, and a former physicians' practice administrator. I'm from a rural area. My mission statement? To improve the health of every resident of my community. In my community, IMGs are no oddity. They have filled a need for over 2 decades (with no malpractice claims that I know of). There are US graduates of foreign schools, foreign graduates of foreign schools, and most important for the future, current residents attending foreign schools. One of these students asked me to read some of your comments. Thus, the reason for my presence here. Bottom line for this community? We don't quite qualify as underserved at this point, so we're just above the poverty level in some respects. Attracting physicians here is difficult. Without IMGs, we would be severely lacking in primary care providers. So, I am on the opposite side of the fence from you AZSK, and luckily I believe that the majority would agree with me when presented a "fair and impartial" review of the physician supply/demand situation.

And, as I read your reply, you really don't care about current students studying abroad. I hope that all those reading this post (and it seems to be a popular one) note your lack of concern for their future.

empathy
11-05-2005, 12:08 AM
Az, you sure do take a beating on here but I for one really admire what you are doing. You always back up the things you say with links to authorized sites which provide students with true and accurate information. Thank you!

I have some questions for you and only you. You are one of the few reliable/honest sources of information. Why do students attend new colleges like this one? Oregon reports that they aren't accredited anywhere. Is that true or is this info out dated?

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 12:50 AM
You always back up the things you say with links to authorized sites which provide students with true and accurate information.That is patently untrue, all one has to do is look through his posting history to find all the posts he has made that have no substantiation.
Oregon reports that they aren't accredited anywhere. Is that true or is this info out dated?Care to provide a link?

Also, your posting style is terribly familiar, quite similar to a troll that was recently banned from this site that asked for only certain people to respond to their generalized posts because they only wanted certain answers.

swimguy23
11-05-2005, 01:24 AM
Yeah, all that happened today! Test taking skills?? That alone proves you have NO clue what you're talking about. The USMLE step 1 is not A test, it's THE test. You can't GUESS your way though, what are you thinking? This is the hardest exam any of us will ever take. Good students even do badly on it. It's an impossibility for a bad student to bluff his way through. Those kind of statements are an insult to all those who have been tried by fire.

you might seem like youre guessing on a lot of it or at least between 2-3 answers.....

also its not that hard very challenging yes but i have definitely taken harder exams, just none that were so very very draining and with so much at stake

###
11-05-2005, 01:24 AM
.......................

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 01:33 AM
It will be interesting to see what happens. Many have been saying all along that something like this could happen. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter who is behind this or what their motives are. If it isn't AZ and the BBC it will be someone else. The fact is that SC's brilliant strategy is also a risky one. SC is in a vulnerable position and, until the licensing issues get resolved, it will continue to be.

As neilc and others have pointed out, SC's livelihood depends on many factors beyond its control such as the good behavior of its competitors. The fact that SC is doing well attracts others to imitate the strategy. If any of these causes trouble, it could bring ruin to SC. All it takes is a couple of fear mongering broadcasts and the politicians will "do the right thing". While it will look good in the short run, limiting competition will undermine quality in the long run. Also, SC has no constituency that matters in the UK. Thus, SC is an easy target.It's sink or swim. I don't doubt we will swim.

azskeptic
11-05-2005, 03:10 AM
i love it....everyone bickering over who is getting paid by whom. whee. that is clearly not the issue.

the fact is, the GMC felt compelled to investigate all of the schools operating on UK soil, and i can assure you that they are not using the eggman as the head consultant. so, exactly how is a discussion about his tax forms (yeah, disclose your tax forms, az. that is reasonable, sure....) pertinent?

now, you have the right to be optimistic, or pessimistic about the pending investigation. but, to most it would seem a bit disconcerting at the very least. so, shouldn't that be the issue under discussion???

or does it make everyone feel better to ignore (yet again) the issue and resort to distraction and diversion?
I'm past the age or stage of taking "knock this chip off of my shoulder' games. No thanks. THe data that is being discussed by the BBC and the GMC isn't about me--its about systems and administrators. We'll let them validate it. You and I are mere spectators on the side of the road. One thing I've learned is you can't please all of the people all of the time so you do your best. The questions that are being asked by authorities are questions that have been raised on this forum by a host of people and it would appear we'll see the answers in the next few months. Reference caring for students, he who speaks the truth cares most. I believe I am not the person I'd be demanding to prove themselves because I'm not one who affects students directly: I'd probably demand it of the person who I'm paying 6 figures to. More logical. I can do no more than tell people I am not working for medical schools, pharmaceutical companies,etc. Either you believe it or you don't; not my job as a volunteer to do anymore than that. We'll all watch the process. I had a funny email from someone in my PM that said "Boy, what a question. You ask questions of all of the medical schools. If you are getting paid by someone I'd like to know who it could be because all of the med schools don't like the questions you raise".......

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 04:59 AM
Just as I thought, you do have something to hide.


I'm past the age or stage of taking "knock this chip off of my shoulder' games. No thanks. THe data that is being discussed by the BBC and the GMC isn't about me--its about systems and administrators. We'll let them validate it. You and I are mere spectators on the side of the road. One thing I've learned is you can't please all of the people all of the time so you do your best. The questions that are being asked by authorities are questions that have been raised on this forum by a host of people and it would appear we'll see the answers in the next few months. Reference caring for students, he who speaks the truth cares most. I believe I am not the person I'd be demanding to prove themselves because I'm not one who affects students directly: I'd probably demand it of the person who I'm paying 6 figures to. More logical. I can do no more than tell people I am not working for medical schools, pharmaceutical companies,etc. Either you believe it or you don't; not my job as a volunteer to do anymore than that. We'll all watch the process. I had a funny email from someone in my PM that said "Boy, what a question. You ask questions of all of the medical schools. If you are getting paid by someone I'd like to know who it could be because all of the med schools don't like the questions you raise".......

teratos
11-05-2005, 05:22 AM
You're letting your emotions getting the best of rational thought. G

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 05:25 AM
You're letting your emotions getting the best of rational thought. G I don't think so. If he is going to say he isn't being compensated for his efforts, then let him prove it, otherwise people should be rightfully suspicious of his intentions and what he posts...

Smythe
11-05-2005, 06:10 AM
Just as I thought, you do have something to hide.
http://www.jessicaswell.com/images/Kucinich1.jpg

teratos
11-05-2005, 06:19 AM
I don't think so. If he is going to say he isn't being compensated for his efforts, then let him prove it, otherwise people should be rightfully suspicious of his intentions and what he posts...

Even if he is being compensated, if the school is solid, it will be little more than an annoyance. G

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 06:25 AM
Even if he is being compensated, if the school is solid, it will be little more than an annoyance. GThis is true.

However, many of his posts in the St. Chris forum are based on absolutely nothing more than his opinion. As such, people should be aware that his opinion isn't motivated by altruism, but by the money being slipped into his back pocket, so they know how much weight to give his posts.

The facts will always speak for themselves, but it's the non-factual posts that are problematic.

teratos
11-05-2005, 06:46 AM
This is true.

However, many of his posts in the St. Chris forum are based on absolutely nothing more than his opinion. As such, people should be aware that his opinion isn't motivated by altruism, but by the money being slipped into his back pocket, so they know how much weight to give his posts.

The facts will always speak for themselves, but it's the non-factual posts that are problematic.

everybody has an agenda. Even altruism is an agenda unto itself. (Watch out Confuscious)

AUCMD2006
11-05-2005, 10:09 AM
quality of of a school in basic science has a lot to do with how many people make it through the other checks and balances. if you have absolutely no standards to meet whatsoever and you provide just the proverbial seat for the usmle you will admit 100% of students and have very low completion rates. there will be no funding required for adequate facilities, qualified profs, resources, research, etc. in the end this not only hurts students themselves but also the profession as a whole. if you don;t have standards then schools will take advantage, exaggerate, etc. ie AUA advertising in india/pakistan that they guarantee being able to practice in the US, SC humanitarian mission without proof and so on

i don't know if the current system is adequate enough to weed out bad students. i have met and heard about residents who were dismissed from a program for serious lack of competency only to find another program to take them. i think the entire 4 years shoule have quality assurance measures. the usmle is a grueling exam, not the hardest exam but it is grueling bc it is long

azskeptic
11-05-2005, 10:15 AM
quality of of a school in basic science has a lot to do with how many people make it through the other checks and balances. if you have absolutely no standards to meet whatsoever and you provide just the proverbial seat for the usmle you will admit 100% of students and have very low completion rates. there will be no funding required for adequate facilities, qualified profs, resources, research, etc. in the end this not only hurts students themselves but also the profession as a whole. if you don;t have standards then schools will take advantage, exaggerate, etc. ie AUA advertising in india/pakistan that they guarantee being able to practice in the US, SC humanitarian mission without proof and so on

i don't know if the current system is adequate enough to weed out bad students. i have met and heard about residents who were dismissed from a program for serious lack of competency only to find another program to take them. i think the entire 4 years shoule have quality assurance measures. the usmle is a grueling exam, not the hardest exam but it is grueling bc it is long You make good points. Sometimes profit blinds one from doing the correct thing. I am curious if you know of students who have failed out of offshore medical schools and are left with huge debts; another thing that happens when there are low standards for admission other than your checkbook.

bts4202
11-05-2005, 10:28 AM
quality of of a school in basic science has a lot to do with how many people make it through the other checks and balances. if you have absolutely no standards to meet whatsoever and you provide just the proverbial seat for the usmle you will admit 100% of students and have very low completion rates. there will be no funding required for adequate facilities, qualified profs, resources, research, etc. in the end this not only hurts students themselves but also the profession as a whole. if you don;t have standards then schools will take advantage, exaggerate, etc. ie AUA advertising in india/pakistan that they guarantee being able to practice in the US, SC humanitarian mission without proof and so on

i don't know if the current system is adequate enough to weed out bad students. i have met and heard about residents who were dismissed from a program for serious lack of competency only to find another program to take them. i think the entire 4 years shoule have quality assurance measures. the usmle is a grueling exam, not the hardest exam but it is grueling bc it is long

rrod please... I have heard of that kind of stuff happening to US grads even more than foriegn grads.. especially in surgery programs!

Anyway, this thread is pretty much the exact same thing as the other BBC thread... moderator, can u please lock and link?

empathy
11-05-2005, 10:33 AM
Here is a good article. Please note St. Chris is not in this article and I'm not claiming it is a diploma mill.

No Third Degree for Diploma Mills

http://c.lygo.com/s.gif


http://ly.lygo.com/ly/wired/news/v/20020914/images/storytools_print.gif (http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,62689,00.html) http://ly.lygo.com/ly/wired/news/v/20020914/images/storytools_mail.gif (http://www.wired.com/news/story/mail/1,2292,62689,00.html) http://ly.lygo.com/ly/wired/news/v/20020914/images/storytools_rantsrave.gif (http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,62689,00.html#comments)
http://ly.lygo.com/ly/wired/news/v/20020914/images/icon_story_page.gif Page 1 of 2 next » (http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,62689-2,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1)
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By Ryan Singelhttp://ly.lygo.com/ly/wired/news/v/20020914/images/icon_story_send.gif (http://www.wired.com/news/feedback/mail/1,2330,0-742-62689,00.html) | http://ly.lygo.com/ly/wired/news/v/20020914/images/icon_story_morepgs.gif Also (http://www.wired.com/news/storylist/0,2339,742,00.html) by this reporter
02:00 AM Mar. 18, 2004 PT
For a while, Sen. Susan ******* appeared to be the smartest woman in Washington, D.C.
While serving in Congress at the helm of the Governmental Affairs Committee (http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs/index.cfm?/), the Maine Republican earned a bachelor's degree in biology and a master's in medical technology from Lexington University. She maintained a 3.8 grade point average and made the dean's list eight semesters running -- although she was only able to get a B in music appreciation.
http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/N815.WiredNews1/B1695829.3;sz=1x1;ord=10429?http://kt4.kliptracker.com/klipinsert4.gif?campid=10429&ktaction=2&ad_id=1[/URL] on error resume next km_f2 = (IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.2"))) km_f3 = (IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.3"))) km_f4 = (IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.4"))) km_f5 = (IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.5"))) km_f6 = (IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.6"))) km_f7 = (IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.7"))) km_f8 = (IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.8"))) km_f9 = (IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.9"))) http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/N815.WiredNews1/B1695829.3;sz=1x1;ord=318695237941650800?http://kt4.kliptracker.com/klipinsert4.gif?campid=10429&ktaction=2&ad_id=1[URL="http://kt4.kliptracker.com/klipinsert4.tux?campid=10429&ktaction=100&ad_id=1&redir=http%3A//ad.doubleclick.net/clk%3B21330315%3B11919728%3Bz%3Fhttp%3A//www-1.ibm.com/businesscenter/smb/us/en/iems%3FS_TACT%3D6N3FJ31W%26ca%3D6N3FJ%26me%3DW%26m et%3Dexba%26re%3DWiredROS300x250http%3A//"] (http://kt4.kliptracker.com/klipinsert4.tux?campid=10429&ktaction=100&ad_id=1&redir=http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;21330315;11919728;z?http://www-1.ibm.com/businesscenter/smb/us/en/iems?S_TACT=6N3FJ31W&ca=6N3FJ&me=W&met=exba&re=WiredROS300x250http://)http://kt4.kliptracker.com/klipinsert4.gif?campid=10429&id=318695237941650800&ktaction=1&ad_id=1http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/N815.WiredNews1/B1695829.3;sz=1x1;ord=318695237941650800?
http://ly.lygo.com/ly/wired/news/v/20020914/images/cs6/icon_recycle.gif See also

Sketchy Grades for Cyber Schools (http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,62662,00.html)
Down by the Diploma Mills Stream (http://www.wired.com/news/school/0,1383,54596,00.html)
Virtual Degrees Virtually Tough (http://www.wired.com/news/school/0,1383,54734,00.html)
Picture Yourself in Politics (http://www.wired.com/news/politics)http://ly.lygo.com/ly/wired/news/v/20020914/images/cs6/icon13sec_top.gif Today's Top 5 Stories

Video and the Podcasting Star (http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,69462,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5)
You Can Be Smart and Married (http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,69476,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5)
Call It 'Gorilla' Marketing (http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,69489,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5)
Portable GTA Is a Repeat Offender (http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,69474,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5)
Stop Dawdling, Get Scribbling (http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,69479,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5)
Wired News RSS Feeds (http://www.wired.com/news/rss)Special Partner Promotion
http://ly.lygo.com/ly/wired/news/images/ads/monster_final_125x35.gif (http://r.lycos.com/r/monster_wired_storypages/http://clk.atdmt.com/MON/go/lycsnmon0270000239mon/direct/01/) Find local technology jobs (http://r.lycos.com/r/monster_wired_storypages/http://clk.atdmt.com/MON/go/lycsnmon0270000239mon/direct/01/). http://view.atdmt.com/MON/view/lycsnmon0270000239mon/direct/01/


Her degrees were fake and cost the government $1,515, a tab paid by the General Accounting Office, which bought the degrees for ******* as part of its investigation (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03269r.pdf) (PDF) into online degree mills in 2001 and 2002.
The senator's phony degrees may be funny, but fake degrees are not so humorous when high-level employees in the federal government get jobs and promotions with the bogus credentials.
*******, joined by Rep. Tom Davis (R-Virginia), asked the GAO to investigate the matter after reports surfaced last summer that a high-level employee in the Homeland Security Department claimed to have three degrees from a suspected diploma mill. In addition, ******* suspects that some employees even used federal tuition-reimbursement money to pay for the fraudulent diplomas on their office walls.
The GAO's report is expected by the end of the month, and ******* plans to hold hearings on the matter in April.
"No applicant for a job -- whether it's in the private sector or federal government -- should lose out to a candidate because that candidate holds a bogus degree," ******* said. "Moreover, our tax dollars should not be spent on helping federal workers obtain substandard degrees."
The most recent high-profile case came to light in June 2003 when the Homeland Security Department put Laura Callahan, an associate deputy in the Chief Information Office, on paid administrative leave, pending an investigation into whether the Hamilton University bachelor's, master's and Ph.D. degrees listed on her resume were legitimate.
Oregon lists Hamilton University as a "substandard institution (http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html)" whose degrees are illegal for use as credentials in the state.
There are no students visible in the campus pictures on Callahan's alma mater's suspiciously thin website (http://www.hamilton-university.edu/index2_h.html), which is registered by a corporation in Hawaii.
The website says the school is accredited by the American Council of Private Colleges and Universities (http://www.acpcu.org/), which is not recognized as an official accrediting organization by the federal government. The group's voicemail says the council does not provide a list of the schools it accredits.
Callahan, who is still on paid leave, is not the only government employee to have her credentials questioned recently.
Charles Abell, principal deputy undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness, came under fire last year for holding a master's from Columbus University of New Orleans, which is a distance-learning school accredited by a private organization not recognized by the federal government.
In another recent example, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger announced (http://www.schwarzenegger.com/en/news/uptotheminute/news_upto_en_dept_dmv_appt.asp?sec=news&subsec=uptotheminute/) March 1 that he had appointed Jack Corrie to a high-level information technology position in the state's Department of Motor Vehicles.
But Corrie's credentials include a bachelor's and a master's from the University of Palmers Green, which is a fake university, according to John Bear, an expert on online learning and diploma mills.
Bear estimates that the hundreds of diploma mills that sell fake diplomas from fake schools, or fake diplomas from real schools, rake in hundreds of millions of dollars each year.
Story continued on Page 2 » (http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,62689-2,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1)

empathy
11-05-2005, 10:35 AM
Please note this one is not directed at St. Chris either.

Cracking Down On Diploma Mills

July 25, 2003
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'; function movePrev(){ x-=1; if (x == 0){ x = 1; document.getElementById("pictures").innerHTML = storeInfo[x];} else {document.getElementById("pictures").innerHTML = storeInfo[x];} } //end of movePrev function moveNext(){ x+=1; if (x == 1 + 1){ x = 1; document.getElementById("pictures").innerHTML = storeInfo[x];} else {document.getElementById("pictures").innerHTML = storeInfo[x];} } //end of moveNext function getPic(){ document.getElementById("pictures").innerHTML = storeInfo[1]; } http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2002/09/09/image521328x.jpg (AP)


Quote
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/common/images/transp.gif
Many of these fake degrees can also be used to get student visas – just like two of the Sept. 11 hijackers used to get into the country in the first place.


(CBS) If there's one thing University of Illinois physics professor George Gollin values as much as his students, it's the degrees that made him a professor, reports CBS News Correspondent Lee Cowan.

So when he found out prestigious degrees like his were for sale on the Internet, he decided to investigate.

"I got pissed off, basically," says Gollin. "There were people committing fraud who were putting at risk innocent victims."

His research uncovered hundreds of sham universities – diploma mills – offering fake degrees in everything from oncology to emergency surgery.

There are no lectures, no staff, no faculty, yet some people will pass off these phony documents as legitimate degrees.

Take London's Strassford University. Its Web site claims this impressive looking institution was founded during the reign of Queen Victoria. But an attempt to find those ivy-covered halls of learning turned up no grand building, no ivy, not even a sign.

"It may have a beautiful brochure, it may have a picture of a gorgeous building on it, but it's not theirs," says former FBI investigator ***** Ezell.

Fake degrees are nothing new to Ezell. What is new is the level of sophistication.

"They offer you lifetime verification, lifetime backup to your employer if you're going for a job interview," Ezell says.

That means buyers not only get a fake diploma, they get a bogus transcript with grades for courses never taken – and even letters of recommendation.

Sen. Susan *******, R-Me., is a not-too-grateful graduate. During her investigation, she applied for two masters – one in medical technology, the other in biology.

And what does she know about medical technology and biology? "Zero, nothing," ******* says. "In fact I never took a college level biology course in my life."

But she really got mad when she discovered that a woman named Laura Callahan boasted a doctorate in computer information systems from one of the phantom universities.

And Callahan landed a job at the Department of Homeland Security.

"It raises questions, particularly if the individual has a security clearance," says *******. "That's very troubling to me."

Troubling also, ******* says, because many of these fake degrees can also be used to get student visas – just like two of the Sept. 11 hijackers used to get into the country in the first place.

All reasons, says Gollin, to double-check fact against fiction and make sure that virtual degree is indeed from a virtuous institution.


© MMIII, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.

neilc
11-05-2005, 11:20 AM
I don't think so. If he is going to say he isn't being compensated for his efforts, then let him prove it, otherwise people should be rightfully suspicious of his intentions and what he posts...

actually, i don't think the burden of proof is on Az. you cannot accuse somebody of something and ask them to prove it isn't true.

everybody has a right to be suspicious, sure. but, there are only students at a select set of schools that suspect him of this. and, his points are very, very general, and do not seem to benefit any specific school. so, i truly doubt that he is being paid by anyone.

hassaholic
11-05-2005, 11:44 AM
You make good points. Sometimes profit blinds one from doing the correct thing. I am curious if you know of students who have failed out of offshore medical schools and are left with huge debts; another thing that happens when there are low standards for admission other than your checkbook.



Having people fail out of medschool and being left with depts is not a reflection of the school, rather the individual

I am sure just about every school you look at will have people dropping out and being left with debts. This simply means the student did not put in enough effort

Offshore schools are there to provide a oppurtinity to people who wish, and put in the energy to suceed. Simply getting into a medschool means jack

This has nothing to do with the low standards of admissions

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 11:56 AM
actually, i don't think the burden of proof is on Az. you cannot accuse somebody of something and ask them to prove it isn't true. I disagree, if he wants to be a public advocate, he should be held up to scrutiny and should be willing to demonstrate his impartiality.

I didn't ask him to prove it wasn't true, I asked him to make a simple statement, and he refused. The only reason someone would refuse such a simple request where they have nothing to lose and everything to gain if they are being honest is because they have something to hide.

there are only students at a select set of schools that suspect him of this.You think he's going to attack the schools that are owned by the people that are paying him? That wouldn't make much sense. If he isn't attacking their school, why would the students of that school suspect him of anything?
and, his points are very, very general, and do not seem to benefit any specific school. I disagree, if you look at his posting pattern, it can be seen that he focuses on some of the schools here much more than others. If he can post a bunch of nonsense and scare people away from those schools, this will increase enrollment in other offshore schools, so the individuals he is paid by will most likely benefit.

azskeptic
11-05-2005, 12:20 PM
I disagree, if he wants to be a public advocate, he should be held up to scrutiny and should be willing to demonstrate his impartiality.

I didn't ask him to prove it wasn't true, I asked him to make a simple statement, and he refused. The only reason someone would refuse such a simple request where they have nothing to lose and everything to gain if they are being honest is because they have something to hide.
You think he's going to attack the schools that are owned by the people that are paying him? That wouldn't make much sense. If he isn't attacking their school, why would the students of that school suspect him of anything? I disagree, if you look at his posting pattern, it can be seen that he focuses on some of the schools here much more than others. If he can post a bunch of nonsense and scare people away from those schools, this will increase enrollment in other offshore schools, so the individuals he is paid by will most likely benefit.No comment because you aren't going to believe it. It is ok...you have stated your position and everyone knows what you think. I've stated my position. Lets see how the radio show and GMC turn out and more importantly how the 10 'pirate' schools of the UK end up answering the questions they are being asked to answer by the authorities.

AUCMD2006
11-05-2005, 12:22 PM
rrod please... I have heard of that kind of stuff happening to US grads even more than foriegn grads.. especially in surgery programs!

Anyway, this thread is pretty much the exact same thing as the other BBC thread... moderator, can u please lock and link?


exactly my point. if US students with all the checks and supposed balances had these issues then imagine foreign schools? you can't go by measure of numbers also since US students account for the VAST majority of residents its not suprising that you heard about one is it?

my point is that if we hold our schools to similar standards then we are less likely to have outsiders (polititians) cringe at the mention of foreign doctors.

for example, and only as example since we are more familiar with SC but there is also st james, xavier, st luke, MCL, IUHS, vanguard, and the 20+ other schools in the carib, the mail order med schools in florida and UK and i beleive there is one now in american samoa......

if your school, st chris, were to be funded properly and have had facilities, research, and whatever else comparable schools in the UK had it would be a non issue. but like all of our schools it started as a half baked business plan...on top of that it went bankrupt in its first attempt and reincarnated with new gimmicks. maybe if there were requirements and standards the school would have started out strong and all its previous students would not be left alone and maybe it would be forced to hold true to its advertising gimmick of a humanitarian mission and actually train a larger percentage of senegal students in the UK and require that its students spend some time there. i know its a bit off topic and when you posted this i fought not to comment but its really irritating.....

you posted how proud you were to be involved with a school with such humanitarian missions and talk during interviews, this is a farce and an insult to anyone who has been involved in medical missions. you pay tuition that the admin claims goes to all these programs yet because no one is required to go it can't be verified. sorry if i don't have faith but i have seen first hand were funds from these programs tend to end up in the third world and there is a higher chance of your school's reps dopwn there putting a down payment on a land rover than the majority of the funds actually making it to the end because there is no oversight, so in the same sense i donate money to doctors without borders so i can claim to be involved and list myself as a nobel laureate?

all of our schools can use a standard, if it wasn't for california and new york i doubt ross, auc, sgu would not have progressed much in 25 years...fundemental biology..without external force there is no need to evolve

microphage
11-05-2005, 12:45 PM
exactly my point. if US students with all the checks and supposed balances had these issues then imagine foreign schools? you can't go by measure of numbers also since US students account for the VAST majority of residents its not suprising that you heard about one is it?

my point is that if we hold our schools to similar standards then we are less likely to have outsiders (polititians) cringe at the mention of foreign doctors.

for example, and only as example since we are more familiar with SC but there is also st james, xavier, st luke, MCL, IUHS, vanguard, and the 20+ other schools in the carib, the mail order med schools in florida and UK and i beleive there is one now in american samoa......

if your school, st chris, were to be funded properly and have had facilities, research, and whatever else comparable schools in the UK had it would be a non issue. but like all of our schools it started as a half baked business plan...on top of that it went bankrupt in its first attempt and reincarnated with new gimmicks. maybe if there were requirements and standards the school would have started out strong and all its previous students would not be left alone and maybe it would be forced to hold true to its advertising gimmick of a humanitarian mission and actually train a larger percentage of senegal students in the UK and require that its students spend some time there. i know its a bit off topic and when you posted this i fought not to comment but its really irritating.....

you posted how proud you were to be involved with a school with such humanitarian missions and talk during interviews, this is a farce and an insult to anyone who has been involved in medical missions. you pay tuition that the admin claims goes to all these programs yet because no one is required to go it can't be verified. sorry if i don't have faith but i have seen first hand were funds from these programs tend to end up in the third world and there is a higher chance of your school's reps dopwn there putting a down payment on a land rover than the majority of the funds actually making it to the end because there is no oversight, so in the same sense i donate money to doctors without borders so i can claim to be involved and list myself as a nobel laureate?

all of our schools can use a standard, if it wasn't for california and new york i doubt ross, auc, sgu would not have progressed much in 25 years...fundemental biology..without external force there is no need to evolve


Ah.. that's the rrod I miss so much.

I could honestly are less what happens to those 10 or so schools but I hope something will be put into place to help the students out. We don't want another kigezi.

bts4202
11-05-2005, 01:38 PM
Rrod,

I am very sorry that you have had a bad experience donating the red cross or some other similar organization, but our school actually does lots of work in senegal:

A student who DID go to african and check everything out: http://stchris.edu/studentservices/studentorganisations/amsa-event2.php

AAII info:
http://home.earthlink.net/~halimcisse/aaii-2.html (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ehalimcisse/aaii-2.html)

Bill gates award for Global health:
http://home.earthlink.net/~halimcisse/gates_award-letter.html (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ehalimcisse/gates_award-letter.html)


Education


The African American Islamic Institute has established a Qur`anic School in Madina-Kaolack, Senegal, where children from the United States, Europe, the Caribbean and Africa study Qur`an and receive support in secular subjects, for which they receive academic credit to permit their successful re-entry into the educational system upon their return home. Students who have completed their studies by memorizing the entire Qur`an have been admitted to colleges and universities in the United States and abroad. The School offers children and young adults a unique opportunity to live and study in an Islamic environment and emersion in a rich and meaningful cultural experience, under the direction and guidance of Shaykh Hassan Cisse. The Institute recruits teachers and educators to teach English, Mathematics, and Computer Literacy to children and adults and has established a Literacy Center where students of all ages are learning to read. Contributions of books in English, French and Arabic, and computer hardware and software are welcome.

Health Care

The African American Islamic Institute has established the Shifa al-Asqam Clinic, a Socio-Medical Center in Madina-Kaolack, under the medical direction of Dr. Khadijah Cisse, an American, Board Certified physician. Once equipped and staffed, this new 100 bed clinic will serve a rural population of approximately 10,000 medically under-served children and adults. It is anticipated that 200 patients a day will be seen in this health care facility. The African American Islamic Institute recruits physicians, nurses, dentists and other health care professionals to provide medical care and health education through commitments of anywhere between two (2) weeks to one year of service. Over the years, many American physicians have spent their 'vacations' caring for children and adults in this medically under-served community without the equipment that is so essential for accurate, life-saving diagnosis and treatment. Volunteers provide their own airfare, with the Institute providing room and board for the duration of their service. Contributions of medical equipment will enable us to upgrade the level of care to which families in this community have access. For example, to begin a health education campaign around breast cancer, we must have the capacity to offer mammograms; our planned pre-natal clinic requires GYN examination tables, fetal monitors and the capability to perform sonograms.

In addition, medicine (for Malaria, Cholera, headache and gastro-intestinal distress, antibiotics) and pediatric and adult vitamin supplements to compensate for the absence of fruits and vegetables nine (9) months of the year, as well as vitamins for lactating mothers are sought.

###
11-05-2005, 03:52 PM
.....................

AUCMD2006
11-05-2005, 04:06 PM
never said i had a bad experience donating i just said that since apparently paying tuition yields a claim at medical missionary work then i am a nobel prize winner through doctors without borders.

this students trip was a hospital rotation at a facility that already exists and apparently is receiving money from SC and the literacy programs through the organizations you list seem valid enough. there are just too many questions around it all.

without the requirement of all students to go there how do you know this wasn't a one time agreement that the school paid for? how do you know that it is still the same 3 years later? more importantly how do you know exactly what brand of islam your money is paying to be taught? i am the only one that has ever asked this politically incorrect question? how do you know that they aren't teaching the saudi brand where by you and i are sons of goats and therefore we have no soul so it is ok to kill us.

having been in the 3rd world i know how things work, the military in south america, when a US diplomat is coming through to determine need for the drug war will put away their regular supplies and get out old ak-47 with tape etc while they all drive late model mercedes and live in the lap of luxury with money funeld from one source to another. the few people i know from africa have said that business there runs the same and some have said that it is worse...so while i don't doubt that enough of your money is going to the stated places to make nice pictures and a show piece there is no way to know for sure is there?

another example: i would equate her visit to an admiral's visit to a navy base. when we got inspected all things were cleaned, new paint applied, buff and shined all brass etc...but he was never there day to day so they got a glimpse....without a continued presence of students it may as well be a buff and shine job....

i really don' mean to bash the school, it just lends itself to a perfect example as to why close rules and regulations are needed of all our schools. does anyone seriously think that sgu, auc, sgu, saba would have capital improvements without requirements?

good luck on interviews...hopefuly you will reconsider bragging about the humanitarian angle but if i were in your position i would probably use it as well to validate an african school in the first world with no african students something has to be said i guess.... at least i don't have a moral dilema we all know carib schools bought a charter and don't try and pass themselves as altruistic endevours...you guys are heroic, so how much did the humanitarian effort cost you...money that is and not effort, sacrifice, time, actually traveling to an area of need...you know the silly traditional things associated with it....hehehehehe

###
11-05-2005, 04:08 PM
................................

bts4202
11-05-2005, 04:18 PM
never said i had a bad experience donating i just said that since apparently paying tuition yields a claim at medical missionary work then i am a nobel prize winner through doctors without borders.

this students trip was a hospital rotation at a facility that already exists and apparently is receiving money from SC and the literacy programs through the organizations you list seem valid enough. there are just too many questions around it all.

without the requirement of all students to go there how do you know this wasn't a one time agreement that the school paid for? how do you know that it is still the same 3 years later? more importantly how do you know exactly what brand of islam your money is paying to be taught? i am the only one that has ever asked this politically incorrect question? how do you know that they aren't teaching the saudi brand where by you and i are sons of goats and therefore we have no soul so it is ok to kill us.

having been in the 3rd world i know how things work, the military in south america, when a US diplomat is coming through to determine need for the drug war will put away their regular supplies and get out old ak-47 with tape etc while they all drive late model mercedes and live in the lap of luxury with money funeld from one source to another. the few people i know from africa have said that business there runs the same and some have said that it is worse...so while i don't doubt that enough of your money is going to the stated places to make nice pictures and a show piece there is no way to know for sure is there?

another example: i would equate her visit to an admiral's visit to a navy base. when we got inspected all things were cleaned, new paint applied, buff and shined all brass etc...but he was never there day to day so they got a glimpse....without a continued presence of students it may as well be a buff and shine job....

i really don' mean to bash the school, it just lends itself to a perfect example as to why close rules and regulations are needed of all our schools. does anyone seriously think that sgu, auc, sgu, saba would have capital improvements without requirements?

good luck on interviews...hopefuly you will reconsider bragging about the humanitarian angle but if i were in your position i would probably use it as well to validate an african school in the first world with no african students something has to be said i guess.... at least i don't have a moral dilema we all know carib schools bought a charter and don't try and pass themselves as altruistic endevours...you guys are heroic, so how much did the humanitarian effort cost you...money that is and not effort, sacrifice, time, actually traveling to an area of need...you know the silly traditional things associated with it....hehehehehe
well, I see your point. If we were talking about Robert Mugabe's regime in zimbabwe, i would agree with you. However, the incredible recognition given to the AAII by many world organizations lends me to believe them rather than the fantastic theories you propose:

http://www.valuemd.com/st-christophers-college-medicine/39949-questoion-the-establishment-st-chris-2.html?highlight=aaii#post233347

http://www.valuemd.com/st-christophers-college-medicine/29910-match-5.html?highlight=aaii#post243534

http://www.valuemd.com/st-christophers-college-medicine/39949-questoion-the-establishment-st-chris-2.html?highlight=aaii#post233339

azskeptic
11-05-2005, 04:20 PM
well, I see your point. If we were talking about Robert Mugabe's regime in zimbabwe, i would agree with you. However, the incredible recognition given to the AAII by many world organizations lends me to believe them rather than the fantastic theories you propose:

http://www.valuemd.com/st-christophers-college-medicine/39949-questoion-the-establishment-st-chris-2.html?highlight=aaii#post233347

http://www.valuemd.com/st-christophers-college-medicine/29910-match-5.html?highlight=aaii#post243534

http://www.valuemd.com/st-christophers-college-medicine/39949-questoion-the-establishment-st-chris-2.html?highlight=aaii#post233339 We'll eagerly await the GMC's findings on Luton's involvement with Dakar and AAIC. How is the NY approval going?

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 04:21 PM
I think you are focusing on the wrong end of the process. While it is true that admissions policies, facilities, curriculum, etc. affect the final product, it is much better to focus on assessing the output of the system rather than the inputs. It seems to me that many of the concerns about substandard training are better addressed via improved testing. If the USMLE is inadequate (as Az suggests) then it seems to me that the best approach would be to look for ways to improve testing than to worry about the internal operations of schools.

I really don't think it matters HOW someone reaches the goal (e.g. via the internet) if our testing procedures are adequate to insure competency. It seems that many of the concerns about quality are due to inadequacy of testing and assessment.

Focusing on things like admission standards is analogous to using surrogate measures in clinical trials -- in which you substitute an easy measure (admission rates, #students per cadaver) instead of measuring the true outcome of interest (physician performance). Surrogate measures have led to lots of fiascos in clinical trials (encanide for arrythmias, flouride for osteporosis, etc). I suspect that the same can happen here. In addition, there are sound economic reasons for opposing this approach because it stifles competition and innovation. In the end, this will result in higher costs of medical education and lower quality. If any anyone takes anything from all of this, it should be the above. Sounds reasoning if I have ever seen any...

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 04:29 PM
No comment because you aren't going to believe it Everyone would have no choice but to believe a notarized statement, but we all know you aren't willing to do that due to the potential legal ramifications of willfully signing a false statement for the purposes of fraud when evidence contrary to that statement exists.

It doesn't really surprise me, given your negative legal history.

It's obvious this isn't a "No Comment" due to disbelief, but a "No Comment" because you don't want to incriminate yourself.

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 04:32 PM
We'll eagerly await the GMC's findings on Luton's involvement with Dakar and AAIC. How is the NY approval going? When the GMC affirms our schools legitimacy, it will demonstrate exactly who and what you are, which many of us have known for a very long time...

diogenes
11-05-2005, 04:36 PM
There are several countries which have relatively open admission policies in medical school (I believe Argentina and France are examples). Once again, it is the output that matters, not the input.

Part of the reason why people end up with debt is that medical school is so expensive. And why is this? It is because competition is limited. Imagine if lots of Rosses and SGUs were able to set up shop in the US to offer preclinical medical education. I suspect the competition would rapidly drive the cost down to community college levels (the operating costs of these programs are very low).

Would this be a bad thing? I don't think so -- as long as we had adequate methods for assessing those who sought to continue to the next level. If anything, I suspect that it would IMPROVE medical education. At present, schools have little incentive to improve the quality of medical education because their status is derived from research; however, imagine lots of teaching companies competing to offer the best possible courses to help people pass their competency exams. It could only improve things -- and at lower cost.

Are open admission policies unfair to those who started and failed? Not really, betting on med school is no different that betting on any other profession. Ultimately, it is an individual decision. Finally, if the artificial barriers to competition were removed, the costs would be lower and the consequences of failure would be much reduced.
Thanks for that Dr.B. Your last 2 posts perfectly summarize the issue, as I see it anyway.
I'd just like to add that historically the medical profession and its self-governing regulators have not covered themselves in glory all of the time: all too often behaving like a selfish cartel. Currently, because of the shortage of doctors in so many countries the system is bursting at the seams. One unsurprising response has been the growth of off-shore med. schools and even distance learning. This makes traditionalists uncomfortable and they look for ways to quash the new arrivals or at least make them more like themselves e.g. raising entry reqs. to those of "normal" schools or requiring the curriculum and its delivery to be exactly the same as their's.
As you say, this does not make for an innovative profession; it would be quite unacceptable in other economic spheres; and it is unnecessary if testing of graduates is adequate.

AUCMD2006
11-05-2005, 05:03 PM
"I think you are focusing on the wrong end of the process"

i think assesing the output is ditrectly tied in to the input. if you scrub shine and buff a pice of crap its still crap. you also have to think of people who should have probably never been in med school and are left with crippling debt.

if our smedicial school system was set up like the french were they admit everyone but it is a weedout process then by all means use the output as a measure but our system is not paid by the govt and it is a huge expense that can not be realistically paid off without success in the profession. if you admit all and graduate few key bank will not be the first to refuse med students loans.

ever looked at chiro default rates? they have open admissions

Nebakanezer
11-05-2005, 05:05 PM
...if our smedicial school system was set up like the french were they admit everyone but it is a weedout process then by all means use the output as a measure...I thought this was exactly how most, if not all, off-shore programs are designed? :confused:

###
11-05-2005, 05:22 PM
........................

diogenes
11-05-2005, 05:24 PM
"I think you are focusing on the wrong end of the process"

i think assesing the output is ditrectly tied in to the input. if you scrub shine and buff a pice of crap its still crap. you also have to think of people who should have probably never been in med school and are left with crippling debt.

if our smedicial school system was set up like the french were they admit everyone but it is a weedout process then by all means use the output as a measure but our system is not paid by the govt and it is a huge expense that can not be realistically paid off without success in the profession. if you admit all and graduate few key bank will not be the first to refuse med students loans.

ever looked at chiro default rates? they have open admissions
I wouldn't personally go as far as to hold up the French system as a paradigm. Nor would I suggest that we abandon all testing at the point of entry. In fact if we hone testing at the point of exit we may learn a lot about how better to test for the right aptitudes at entry. For example, in recent years mainstream med.schools have given much more weight to communications skills and the psychological profile of the applicant.
I agree that debt and shattered dreams are a problem. But in the end I'm with Dr.B on this one:- why should embarking on a medical career not have its element of risk like any other life choice?

AUCMD2006
11-05-2005, 05:35 PM
"However, the incredible recognition given to the AAII by many world organizations lends me to believe them rather than the fantastic theories you propose"

they are only fantastic and unrealsitic to those who have not seen propaganda at work. pretty awards, pictures etc just add to the show.

i am sure tom delay, jimmy swaggart, jim baker, and the UN oil for food programs don't prove that corruption can reach the highest levels, think back before the problems how many nice pictires with presidents and great propaganda they had...wonder how much corruption there is at the bottom?

cursory review:

"Close to 90 percent of those surveyed acknowledged that corruption is widespread in Senegal's public sector and among politicians."

"The findings drew a sharp reaction from the Senegalese government. Senegalese President Abdoulaye Wade accused Forum Civil of being "closet politicians who do not have the courage to accept their responsibilities." He also called into question the credibility of the surveys and rejected its conclusions. However, only months ago in a speech to the Swiss private sector, President Wade acknowledged the existence of a disturbing level of corruption in Senegal and committed himself to combat it vigorously."

"President Wade's election in March 2000, no concrete measures have been adopted to fight corruption in Senegal"

http://www.afrol.com/News2002/sen020_corruption2.htm

"The greatest impact of corruption is on the poor those least able to absorb its costs. By illegally diverting state funds corruption undercuts services, such as health, education, public transportation "

"President Abdoulaye Wade has called a "disturbing level of corruption" in the country"

"The Wade government has hitherto been observed to fail to take strong action against corruption, despite the fact that Mr Wade had made the fight against corruption one of his main election campaign issues in year 2000. Recent reports seem to indicate that corruption indeed has become more widespread under the current administration."

http://www.afrol.com/articles/10539

"Despite the substantial resources devoted to the health sector in Sénégal, the health of the population remains precarious. As in the majority of African countries, the sector faces persistent problems of corruption and dishonesty"
http://www.idrc.org/en/ev-83062-201_101914-1-IDRC_ADM_INFO.html

"Wade’s Government has been repeatedly accused of instigating attacks on the premises of opposition parties. The biggest scandal occurred in October 2003, when Talla Sylla, leader of the Alliance “Jëf-Jël” opposition party, was attacked with a hammer"

http://www.socialwatch.org/en/informesNacionales/386.html


but enough on the uncorrupt govt of senegal. maybe if you spent some time in the third world as something other than a toursit you could see how a charter can be bought, how health officials can be bribed, etc...

AUCMD2006
11-05-2005, 05:39 PM
now is see. i guess you have a point. by establishing say, a usmle pass rate similar to US schools and some other measures of quality you avoid all the ** like site vists and such. it would be interesting no doubt but still does not answer the question of being left with a ton of debt if you fail. now you can say even US students fail out but the rate is much lower b/c standards are much higher.... i agree that responsibility falls on the individual but i would like to enjoy the same credit rating as my predecesors, if the default rate goes up that would prevent me from getting my porsche as a resdident

empathy
11-05-2005, 05:57 PM
actually, i don't think the burden of proof is on Az. you cannot accuse somebody of something and ask them to prove it isn't true.

everybody has a right to be suspicious, sure. but, there are only students at a select set of schools that suspect him of this. and, his points are very, very general, and do not seem to benefit any specific school. so, i truly doubt that he is being paid by anyone.

Az is an honest person. He is trying to help people. All the good honest people on here are very grateful to him. It's only the people who are trying to deceive students that don't like him. They find him threatening. Boo hoo he won't sit back and let bad guys get rich at the expense of poor naive students.

bts4202
11-06-2005, 06:22 AM
http://www.wango.org/other_sites/wango2002/overview.htm

http://www.wango.org/other_sites/wango2002/DSC_2142.gif

The WANGO Education Award was given to the African American Islamic Institute (AAII) and was received by its Founder, Shaykh Hassan Ali Cisse. AAII was founded as a non-governmental organization in Senegal, West Africa in 1988 by Shaykh Cisse, a respected Islamic scholar and leader. AAII has since grown to be an international NGO headquartered in Senegal but with affiliates in Africa, Europe and North America. AAIIís mission is to develop a capability for sustainable human and natural resource development that focuses on education, as well as human rights, health care, food and water availability, alleviation of poverty, and peace. The AAII commitment to education in conjunction with a code of personal responsibility along with numerous other programs serves as the basis for the inaugural WANGO Education Award 2002.

jpryor
11-06-2005, 07:27 AM
Az is an honest person. He is trying to help people. All the good honest people on here are very grateful to him. It's only the people who are trying to deceive students that don't like him. They find him threatening. Boo hoo he won't sit back and let bad guys get rich at the expense of poor naive students.
That you, and others, think highly of AzSkeptic is reason enough to keep the focus on him. I will state two premises: 1)AzSkeptic has a pathological dislike for physicians and 2) He is motivated by three things: ego, power and money.

I haven't cared enough about this person to read his full story, but I am aware he has a health condition that he claims resulted in his closeness to the medical community (my paraphrasing). It rings patently odd that somebody who professes to have esteem for medicine constantly assaults a site for people interested in obtaining their MDs with stories of physicians who have been charged with illegal or fraudulent activities. Maybe others can see some good in this behavior, but from a clinical perspective (listen up all of you doctors and wanna-bes) it appears closer to pathology than to rational behavior. Of course, he will respond to this, so his rationalization will prove interesting. Try to be objective and just look at this one issue--continuous posting about bad doctors versus his reasoning.

People have raised the issue (and he has denied it) of him profitting from his activities against offshore schools. I believe that AzSkeptic has not been paid a dime for this activity, but profit is his motive. First of all, why would anybody pay somebody with no credentials anything to bash offshore schools? The closest thing to a credential he has is being a moderator on this forum, which is notoriously biased toward SGU and therefore tolerates his half-truths about other schools. But let's examine the profit motive. For example, you are reading this on VMD's web site. It cost money to run this site-I think most of us understand that. None of us have paid anything to particpate here, so the revenue obviously comes from advertising, which abounds on this site. Tastefully, I might add. So, imagine doing your own web site. It would be hard to compete against the established sites such as VMD and SDN, so what could be your hook? Obviously, controversey generates interest, so it should offer plenty of that and based on his postings here, AzSkeptic is becoming a master at that. So, how could he benefit from a web site? Well, do a search on VMD for the now-defunct web site www.aaimg.org (http://www.aaimg.org). A lot has been said about this site. Some good, a lot bad. The guy who owned it died. Do you know who owns it now? AzSkeptic. Advertising revenues, controversey, "credentials", power and ego. A book that he is working on and the lecture circuit. Can you see the profit motive now?

Isn't it amazing what the Internet can do for somebody! Imagine sitting in front of your computer all day long with search engines looking for words like medical school, medical student, IMG, FMG, fraud, corrupt, ECFMG...I'm sure he has a long list. By simply compiling what others write, he is perceived as a source. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but riding other people's coat tails doesn't impress me and certainly doesn't establish one's credentials. I would have some respect for the guy and his efforts if he was fair and balanced. But he isn't, so I don't have any respect for him. This is only my personal opinion, but I think we have somebody who gets his ya-yas by bashing medicine, medical people and is trying to buy legitimacy.

I wince when he whimpers about not shooting the messenger. I assume that there is good news written about the medical profession...after all, it is called the noble profession, is it not? Assuredly, an IMG physician has done well enough to have a humanitarian story in a newspaper somewhere. Wouldn't that seem like a better post on a site such as VMD than what AzSkeptic routinely posts? But that kind of thing doesn't get you invited to speak on the lecture circuit, does it? But posting something about an alleged cheat running a medical school certainly does, plus it allows a person to cry "Don't shoot the messenger" because he didn't pen the initial words. As I've said before, anybody can allege anything and when it is written by somebody else there's that guilt that is assumed because of the allegation. Which raises an interesting point. It has been alleged that AzSkeptic, under his real name, ************. Not my acccusation, but I've certainly heard the allegations of ***** raised on VMD and recently, too. I would like to see the story written along these lines: An alleged pedophile has been invited to critique an alleged cheat running a school. That's a bit more fair and balanced, isn't it, Az?

Smythe
11-06-2005, 08:47 AM
That you, and others, think highly of AzSkeptic is reason enough to keep the focus on him. I will state two premises: 1)AzSkeptic has a pathological dislike for physicians and 2) He is motivated by three things: ego, power and money.

I haven't cared enough about this person to read his full story, but I am aware he has a health condition that he claims resulted in his closeness to the medical community (my paraphrasing). It rings patently odd that somebody who professes to have esteem for medicine constantly assaults a site for people interested in obtaining their MDs with stories of physicians who have been charged with illegal or fraudulent activities. Maybe others can see some good in this behavior, but from a clinical perspective (listen up all of you doctors and wanna-bes) it appears closer to pathology than to rational behavior. Of course, he will respond to this, so his rationalization will prove interesting. Try to be objective and just look at this one issue--continuous posting about bad doctors versus his reasoning.

People have raised the issue (and he has denied it) of him profitting from his activities against offshore schools. I believe that AzSkeptic has not been paid a dime for this activity, but profit is his motive. First of all, why would anybody pay somebody with no credentials anything to bash offshore schools? The closest thing to a credential he has is being a moderator on this forum, which is notoriously biased toward SGU and therefore tolerates his half-truths about other schools. But let's examine the profit motive. For example, you are reading this on VMD's web site. It cost money to run this site-I think most of us understand that. None of us have paid anything to particpate here, so the revenue obviously comes from advertising, which abounds on this site. Tastefully, I might add. So, imagine doing your own web site. It would be hard to compete against the established sites such as VMD and SDN, so what could be your hook? Obviously, controversey generates interest, so it should offer plenty of that and based on his postings here, AzSkeptic is becoming a master at that. So, how could he benefit from a web site? Well, do a search on VMD for the now-defunct web site www.aaimg.org (http://www.aaimg.org). A lot has been said about this site. Some good, a lot bad. The guy who owned it died. Do you know who owns it now? AzSkeptic. Advertising revenues, controversey, "credentials", power and ego. A book that he is working on and the lecture circuit. Can you see the profit motive now?

Isn't it amazing what the Internet can do for somebody! Imagine sitting in front of your computer all day long with search engines looking for words like medical school, medical student, IMG, FMG, fraud, corrupt, ECFMG...I'm sure he has a long list. By simply compiling what others write, he is perceived as a source. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but riding other people's coat tails doesn't impress me and certainly doesn't establish one's credentials. I would have some respect for the guy and his efforts if he was fair and balanced. But he isn't, so I don't have any respect for him. This is only my personal opinion, but I think we have somebody who gets his ya-yas by bashing medicine, medical people and is trying to buy legitimacy.

I wince when he whimpers about not shooting the messenger. I assume that there is good news written about the medical profession...after all, it is called the noble profession, is it not? Assuredly, an IMG physician has done well enough to have a humanitarian story in a newspaper somewhere. Wouldn't that seem like a better post on a site such as VMD than what AzSkeptic routinely posts? But that kind of thing doesn't get you invited to speak on the lecture circuit, does it? But posting something about an alleged cheat running a medical school certainly does, plus it allows a person to cry "Don't shoot the messenger" because he didn't pen the initial words. As I've said before, anybody can allege anything and when it is written by somebody else there's that guilt that is assumed because of the allegation. Which raises an interesting point. It has been alleged that AzSkeptic, under his real name, . Not my acccusation, but I've certainly heard the allegations of ****** raised on VMD and recently, too. I would like to see the story written along these lines: ****************** has been invited to critique an alleged cheat running a school. That's a bit more fair and balanced, isn't it, Az?
Now that infinuteuni is :nuts:, perhaps you can borrow his tinfoil hat.

I have one question to ask for the paranoid people that think this azskeptic is a hired gun out to attack St Christopher in favor of some nebulous syndicate of off-shore medical schools

If azskeptic was going to take under the table bribes to spam in favor of any particular place don't you think he would be spamming this forum on how wonderful st christopher is and not the other way around?

It appears at the moment they could use all the propoganda they can get. They seem to be getting a lot of it from you jpryor.
************************************************** ***?

PS: does azskeptic having a certain bias for or against any particular group make any of the links he posts untrue? Seems to me all he does is provide links to information that people can read and choose to believe or not believe. He is not the great and powerful Oz, maybe the guy behind the curtain, but not all-powerful ( except in the minds of the paranoid )

empathy
11-06-2005, 08:47 AM
St. Christopher's College of MedicineSenegal, UKODA has no evidence that this is an accredited or otherwise acceptable provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards. Note: "St Christopher's Medical school (aka) St Christopher's Medical College based in Luton is not recognised by the UK authorities as a degree course provider nor does it satisfy the criteria for degree awarding..." UK Higher Education Governance office, 2004.
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

empathy
11-06-2005, 08:54 AM
Check the Washington Monthly Archives. Washington Monthly.com They have a lot of info on this school.

OLDPRO
11-06-2005, 09:05 AM
Okay this thread has gone off topic and very old issues are being reposted as well as Flamming and personal Attacks. Any attempt to repost these posts and reopen the thread will lead to Warnings and possible bannings.

With that said this is closed now. To continue to disscuss the BBC and the GMC go here http://www.valuemd.com/st-christophers-college-medicine/47193-gmc-website-change-status-st-chris-6.html But do not repost old issues please.







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