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View Full Version : MED. SCHOOL in IN ARUBA!!! (ALL SAINTS)



*WiSeGuY*
11-14-2004, 06:59 PM
I've heard ALL SAINTS Medical School has been in the works for a quite while and finally they are opening up in January in Aruba. The President of that school is known for jumping from school to school. To my knowledge St. James, Xaviers, Grace and now his own medical school.

From my previous experience I could tell all of you prospective students to make sure you look into every single details that are possible before you make your decision. That's one of the mistakes I made but now I am dealing with the consequences. This message is not to scare any of the prospective students or to put down the school. My intent is just to make sure that the wonderful world of medicine is taken as a great profession and not a get rich quick scheme that some of the medical schools are making it to be.

You never know, they might not be bad as I am assuming. One of the individual who is part of this school has mis-lead many students. Some students even gave up loosing so much money and much more of their valuable time.

These are some of the things to look for when you are looking to a medical school. Please correct me if I missed any or if I make any mistakes.

1. Accredition: WHO (optional), ECFMG, Local Government
WHO is not necassary anymore but ECFMG is very important.
2. Legit U.S. Office, after all your main goal is to get into US Hospitals. US contact information.
3. Proper MD or PhD professors
MD's trained in US system
4. Proper administration, (paper work)
5. Labs/Cadevaers
6. Clinical locations, hospitals, ACGME approved (Green book) hospitals.

I don't have all the information on me right now but as soon as I get it I will post it for you. But make sure you ask questions. DON'T HESITATE, and if they give you a wishy washy answers make sure you clarify with them and get proper answers. Look into all the foriegn medical schools. Be very pro-active with these people. Don't let them sweet talk you into anything. Make sure if they charge any legal fees or anything like that, usually US $2000.00 ask them what is it exactly for. As a fellow student, this is just help you in making your decision so you don't become victimized just like me. No hard feelings towards All Saints. Wish you all the best and good luck in your first step in to the Caribbean medical school system. Doctors are one of the best professions in the world and lets not abuse it. GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!

azskeptic
11-15-2004, 05:31 AM
I've heard ALL SAINTS Medical School has been in the works for a quite while and finally they are opening up in January in Aruba. The President of that school is known for jumping from school to school. To my knowledge St. James, Xaviers, Grace and now his own medical school.

From my previous experience I could tell all of you prospective students to make sure you look into every single details that are possible before you make your decision. That's one of the mistakes I made but now I am dealing with the consequences. This message is not to scare any of the prospective students or to put down the school. My intent is just to make sure that the wonderful world of medicine is taken as a great profession and not a get rich quick scheme that some of the medical schools are making it to be.

You never know, they might not be bad as I am assuming. One of the individual who is part of this school has mis-lead many students. Some students even gave up loosing so much money and much more of their valuable time.

These are some of the things to look for when you are looking to a medical school. Please correct me if I missed any or if I make any mistakes.

1. Accredition: WHO (optional), ECFMG, Local Government
WHO is not necassary anymore but ECFMG is very important.
2. Legit U.S. Office, after all your main goal is to get into US Hospitals. US contact information.
3. Proper MD or PhD professors
MD's trained in US system
4. Proper administration, (paper work)
5. Labs/Cadevaers
6. Clinical locations, hospitals, ACGME approved (Green book) hospitals.

I don't have all the information on me right now but as soon as I get it I will post it for you. But make sure you ask questions. DON'T HESITATE, and if they give you a wishy washy answers make sure you clarify with them and get proper answers. Look into all the foriegn medical schools. Be very pro-active with these people. Don't let them sweet talk you into anything. Make sure if they charge any legal fees or anything like that, usually US $2000.00 ask them what is it exactly for. As a fellow student, this is just help you in making your decision so you don't become victimized just like me. No hard feelings towards All Saints. Wish you all the best and good luck in your first step in to the Caribbean medical school system. Doctors are one of the best professions in the world and lets not abuse it. GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!

Imagine they are collecting the $2000 because they are going to need it if they think they can teach in Canada and not be a licensed medical school. This is a school to stay away from. I've posted elsewhere the info on the school; it is not FAIMER listed yet by the way.

DrAlberto
11-15-2004, 07:13 PM
The two posts above are quite funny. All Saints is a university I have been following for the past few months. I live in Canada and hope to attend medical school in the Carribeans soon. I have spent time and money to fly to Toronto (Eastern Canada) from Edmonton (Western Canada) to see their facilities in Toronto for myself. The Toronto office is called MEERC and has been recruiting Canadian students for schools in the Carribeans for many years in the past. They currently teach USMLE classess and its Canadian equivalent to physicians seeking licensure in Canada and the US. They are fully registered in Canada as a tutorial centre in Toronto. From what I saw and heard on my visit, and thereafter, I think these people are among the most serious minded I have seen, with excellent strategic planning. I met the professor that azekptics (correct spelling?) said jumps from school to school and he told me that he has worked previously in Belize and St James. I asked him why he moved and, from my personal opinion, he comes across to me as someone with a sense of mission rather than a money-grabbing get-rich-quick waco you guys seem to be portraying him to be. This man has an unsurpassed passion and talent for teaching. I was therefore excited when he told me MEERC might be openning a medical school in Aruba soon. I was therefore so happy to know that the school has received its charter but surprised that it got immediately attacked by the posters above. I have been visiting this forum for over a year now and it is disappointing that some people would prefer to use it to say things they are not sure about. This should be an information space, not a disinformation circus. I never thought I would post on this forum but got so incensed by the comments above that I had no other choice than to register and post a response. I would be very glad to provide any objective third-party information about this school on the forum.

azskeptic
11-15-2004, 07:18 PM
The two posts above are quite funny. All Saints is a university I have been following for the past few months. I live in Canada and hope to attend medical school in the Carribeans soon. I have spent time and money to fly to Toronto (Eastern Canada) from Edmonton (Western Canada) to see their facilities in Toronto for myself. The Toronto office is called MEERC and has been recruiting Canadian students for schools in the Carribeans for many years in the past. They currently teach USMLE classess and its Canadian equivalent to physicians seeking licensure in Canada and the US. They are fully registered in Canada as a tutorial centre in Toronto. From what I saw and heard on my visit, and thereafter, I think these people are among the most serious minded I have seen, with excellent strategic planning. I met the professor that azekptics (correct spelling?) said jumps from school to school and he told me that he has worked previously in Belize and St James. I asked him why he moved and, from my personal opinion, he comes across to me as someone with a sense of mission rather than a money-grabbing get-rich-quick waco you guys seem to be portraying him to be. This man has an unsurpassed passion and talent for teaching. I was therefore excited when he told me MEERC might be openning a medical school in Aruba soon. I was therefore so happy to know that the school has received its charter but surprised that it got immediately attacked by the posters above. I have been visiting this forum for over a year now and it is disappointing that some people would prefer to use it to say things they are not sure about. This should be an information space, not a disinformation circus. I never thought I would post on this forum but got so incensed by the comments above that I had no other choice than to register and post a response. I would be very glad to provide any objective third-party information about this school on the forum.

ask the St. James students who flew to Toronto thinking they were starting school at Medway (previous company name to MEERC) and you'll get a different story than you were told. More importantly check with FAIMER and ask them about the school? Doesn't show up there yet...under Canada's laws you can't open a med school without approval in Canada...how are they proposing to do it? St. James backed out when they realized the students wouldn't get licensed....big risk...talk to the Ontario medical license folks and see what they tell you. It is your $200,000//spent it wisely.

azskeptic
11-15-2004, 08:04 PM
The two posts above are quite funny. All Saints is a university I have been following for the past few months. I live in Canada and hope to attend medical school in the Carribeans soon. I have spent time and money to fly to Toronto (Eastern Canada) from Edmonton (Western Canada) to see their facilities in Toronto for myself. The Toronto office is called MEERC and has been recruiting Canadian students for schools in the Carribeans for many years in the past. They currently teach USMLE classess and its Canadian equivalent to physicians seeking licensure in Canada and the US. They are fully registered in Canada as a tutorial centre in Toronto. From what I saw and heard on my visit, and thereafter, I think these people are among the most serious minded I have seen, with excellent strategic planning. I met the professor that azekptics (correct spelling?) said jumps from school to school and he told me that he has worked previously in Belize and St James. I asked him why he moved and, from my personal opinion, he comes across to me as someone with a sense of mission rather than a money-grabbing get-rich-quick waco you guys seem to be portraying him to be. This man has an unsurpassed passion and talent for teaching. I was therefore excited when he told me MEERC might be openning a medical school in Aruba soon. I was therefore so happy to know that the school has received its charter but surprised that it got immediately attacked by the posters above. I have been visiting this forum for over a year now and it is disappointing that some people would prefer to use it to say things they are not sure about. This should be an information space, not a disinformation circus. I never thought I would post on this forum but got so incensed by the comments above that I had no other choice than to register and post a response. I would be very glad to provide any objective third-party information about this school on the forum.

by the way, where did I say a professors name or previous schools? Not aware of it for Medway/Meerc? azskeptic,who is careful what he says

*WiSeGuY*
11-15-2004, 09:55 PM
My point for posting up on the forum is to provide information that I wasn't exposed to when I looked into medical schools in the caribbean. I wasn't aware of these forums, I went by one person's word and I got myself into a mess. My point on the forum is not to condemn a school but to let everyone know that this individual is known for his sneaky way of doing business. I know I can't expose all the information, i don't want to be kicked off the forum but I advise you and everyone to make sure you are aware of what you are getting into. I understand you flew from Edmonton to Toronto to take a look at the campus. The next time you talk to them ask them about the institute that was involved with starting up the school in Canada. It was a computer institute. I am not into bashing any schools, if you want do a search on my username and see. I only post when its necassary. I value education, but I don't tolerate people who use education as a personal get rich scheme. Anyways I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. But I advise you to look into all the med schools, nothing in particular.

AGAIN, my sole purpose of this post is to make everyone aware of whats going on. I am speaking on my behalf and many students who got cheated off this individual. This individual is very good at talking and convincing people into things. I don't want to really call him names but talk to him and make sure you get all the information before you even pay a penny.

GOOD LUCK!!

azskeptic
11-15-2004, 10:31 PM
it doesn't a rocket scientist to realize that a new program in Toronto isn't going to meet LCME standards and be recognized

http://www.lcme.org/newschoolguide.pdf

*WiSeGuY*
11-15-2004, 11:00 PM
check all the licensing organizations in US & CANADA, US is more important.

DrAlberto
11-16-2004, 07:19 AM
azskeptic,
I really don't like posting in chat rooms but your posting, and Wiseguy's, are making me feel obliged to post. And I am actually beginning to read between the lines. I went to the websites of ASUM and read every word on this website through the night. I am surprised at the level of your rumourmongering, I am sorry to use that kind of word but that is exactly what comes to mind as I write now. I could see this school had a charter signed on November 10. To use your words, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that a school chartered on Nov. 10 doesn't appear on FAIMER on the same day.
Secondly, there is no mention of a medical school operating from Canada, meaning there is no need for approval of a medical school by LMC. There is no place for private medical schools in Canada and MEERC doesn't seem to want to operate one here. However, we all know that graduates of all WHO-listed medical schools are eligible to write the licensing exams to practise in Canada or USA, meaning that the school must be able to graduate students that can pass those exams. From my own research, MEERC has been very successful, during its short existence, in preparing physicians to successfully complete licensing exams in Canada and USA. There are even students from main universities in Toronto who go to MEERC to prepare for MCAT and also improve their grades in subjects like Chemistry and Physics. So, all I can say is that MEERC, an apparently successful tutorial centre in Toronto, is involved in setting up a medical school that operates in the Caribbeans. What really rocks about this school, from my research, is the quality of teaching they provide. I am only hoping they transfer the same quality to Aruba. To me, this is like Kaplan starting a medical school!

Thirdly, I felt really insulted on the advice about spending my 200K wisely. If I was stupid, I would not be sitting here all night trying to find information about attending medical school. I have been doing that for the past two years! I hold this site in high regard because it gives me the honest pulse of students and would-be students like me. I wouldn't want that impression of the site to change.

Sorry for my gaffe, I referred to a "Professor" in my earlier response. It was because I had no idea how to handle a response. Now I have your post copied and pasted here so I could quote you correctly.

Wiseguy,
From your posting on this subject, it appears you have a personal axe to grind with this school since you know so much about individuals who started the school and you have a personal distate for their character. And, to my surprise, you are beginning to drop names of schools that appeared to have worked with this new school. Could this be a ***** and Goliath kind of scheme on this forum? Is it possible that the so-called "big schools" are just disinterested in seeing their areas of monopoly being gradually invaded? I am totally for a free market as long as quality is maintained, it can only be good for my pockets as a student.

In summary, please do not see this as a personal attack on you. Objectivity is just my nature and I have always fought on the side of anyone that appears to be unjustly attacked. I find it very unjust to start slagging off a school chartered on November 10 just a few days after without any information other than personal feelings about individuals associated with the school. That action has raised a major suspicion in my mind about the purpose of ValueMD. I am glad you mentioned you are subject to the editorial power of the moderator, I would have thought this was just a private advertisement space for some dictators ruling the Caribbean medical schools!


PS: I hope this doesn't sound harsh. I am very sorry if it does, I was only being honest when writing. Please don't take any word there personal.

azskeptic
11-16-2004, 09:25 AM
Dr. Alberto, you miss my point

1. MEERC is using the telephone number of Medway. Medway had a failed program with St. James which resulted in students allegedly flying to Toronto thinking they were entering med school. St. James bailed out because they researched and found out you can't do basic science teaching in Toronto and hope to get licensed there or the US.

2. What is different about their program this time under the name All Saints? From All Saint's website " The Canadian location is in the city of Toronto, province of Ontario, and hosts the first four semesters of the 5 Yr MD Degree program, as well as other prep/review courses (ie. USMLE, MCAT, etc.)." Is this legal? I'd suggest prudent folks would check with the Canadian licensing authorities and the LCME folks:

http://www.lcme.org/ All Saints doesn't show up as a recognized Canadian medical school that can teach on Canadian soil

or call the Ontario authorities

College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario
80 College Street
Toronto, ON M5G 2E2 Phone: (416) 961-1711

3. Enrolling in a college that isn't on IMED,though claiming to be in the process, is foolish also.

NO matter how nice the people may be you have some information on valuemd that says that something apparently weird happened earlier this year with students flying in thinking they were attending medical school and arriving and being told that no school would happen. Did those students get their money back?

No rumors, just questions derived from live participants on these forums.
azskeptic

*WiSeGuY*
11-16-2004, 08:16 PM
Dear Dr. Alberto, What I am trying to get across through this forum is all the real life incidents that I am very aware of. My intent is not to discredit any new schools and promote the big schools. I will tell you honestly I am not from any of the big schools. I've heard good and bad things about big schools but students who graduate from these schools have no problems getting licenses.

Everything skeptic and I are trying to tell you is just a precautionary measure. You have the choice of going where you want to go. The purpose of this forum is to exchange information and thats all I am doing.

I appreciate the fact that you are doing research night and day. I advise to check with the Canadian and American licensing authorities about the legitamacy of the Canadian branch of this school.

When I joined on of the schools this individual was recruiting I tried my best to support him buy helping more students look into this school. I don't support monopoly but in this case its your life and I remember learning in law class, "survival of the fittest" so you could open up many schools but in reality only the honest and sincere schools will be up and running and will have a good repuatation. With my experience with this individual he is not at all honest and I assume he is the main person in charge of this school. He as an amazing talker!!!

I don't have any personal grudge against any of the individuals but I am talking on behalf of myself and many other students who felt they have been manipulated by this individual.

I am not saying I am 100% right but with my experience I think all of the information that I am posting on this forum is accurate. If you don't beleive it, I am sorry, nothing personal, just advice.

Dr.R.Jiwan
12-22-2004, 11:55 PM
I must make an extremeley important point to you all. First off, there is no medical school in Canada. MEERC operates a tutorial session from their Toronto Headquarters -- TUTORIAL...NOT MED SCHOOL. Secondly, whatever it is that may have happened in the past happened. If anyone made a mistake, it is more than likely that they would not try and repeat it - use common sense. IF a mistake was made, then fine - people learn from their mistakes. Those that have had bad experiences in the past with MEERC's owners and operators learn one lesson from me -- there is no such thing as perfect. People move on, learn from their mistakes and thats it - welcome to reality. If you cannot learn to forgive and forget then guess what - life is gonna be D A M N hard ...secondly, ASUM is listed in IMED - go search it up for yourselves...you people are all worrying about absolutely nothing - All Saints University of Medicine is a new university - I wish it the best of luck and I hope for its success ..theres really not much to say ...for all those of you pointing fingers - look carefully the next time you try and and accuse an individual or an educational institution ..YES people are out there to make money - but let me tell you one thing, if ASUM is a so called scam - it will be evident in the near future...for now, lets give it a positive attitude and hope that it helps to develop and bring about the greatest of doctors. I myself am not affiliated with the school in anyway, but I have done enough research about this school and lemme tell ya ...its legit. So next time anyone wants to throw an argument - think carefully and do your research.

Dr.R.Jiwan

azskeptic
12-23-2004, 02:06 AM
I must make an extremeley important point to you all. First off, there is no medical school in Canada. MEERC operates a tutorial session from their Toronto Headquarters -- TUTORIAL...NOT MED SCHOOL. Secondly, whatever it is that may have happened in the past happened. If anyone made a mistake, it is more than likely that they would not try and repeat it - use common sense. IF a mistake was made, then fine - people learn from their mistakes. Those that have had bad experiences in the past with MEERC's owners and operators learn one lesson from me -- there is no such thing as perfect. People move on, learn from their mistakes and thats it - welcome to reality. If you cannot learn to forgive and forget then guess what - life is gonna be D A M N hard ...secondly, ASUM is listed in IMED - go search it up for yourselves...you people are all worrying about absolutely nothing - All Saints University of Medicine is a new university - I wish it the best of luck and I hope for its success ..theres really not much to say ...for all those of you pointing fingers - look carefully the next time you try and and accuse an individual or an educational institution ..YES people are out there to make money - but let me tell you one thing, if ASUM is a so called scam - it will be evident in the near future...for now, lets give it a positive attitude and hope that it helps to develop and bring about the greatest of doctors. I myself am not affiliated with the school in anyway, but I have done enough research about this school and lemme tell ya ...its legit. So next time anyone wants to throw an argument - think carefully and do your research.

Dr.R.Jiwan

Singing 'kum bah ya' isn't much protection against losing hundreds of thousands in money or loans if the school isn't correct this time. I personally wouldn't wait for the future to figure out if it is a scam. I'd talk to the Canadian govt. and check and see if what they are doing is legit now. Apparently these are the same people who were involved with the St. James fiasco where students came to Toronto thinking they were going to St. James's program and found out it was closed. Exaclty what kind of research did you do?

ValuelessMD
12-23-2004, 03:26 AM
At this time, and most likely for a long time to come, it is simply not possible to go to a private institution in Ontario, let alone Canada for medicine. Further, to expect to get back into Canada to practice is not possible as it is would not be legal to operated a medical program without the approval of the Ontario Government, the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, and the Royal College of Phyicians and Surgeons of Canada. As far as I know, no private school exists at this time with this approval.

There is going to be a new medical school located with twin campuses in Sudbury and Thunderbay, Ontario through Laurentian and Lake Head Univeristies within the next 1-3 years of which is aimed at northern Ontario residents and aboriginals. This will add to the 5 medical schools in Ontario that already exist for a population of approx. 12 million.

Further, to expect to get to the USA using this route is not possible as all medical schools in Canada are not considered foreign to the USA. And visa versa. Without governing body approval, going to this kind of program would be pointless.

Finally, anyone wanting to get to Canada to practice medicine will have a very difficult time obtaining a residency. And if one does, they will have to repeat and begin again; even if they are a practicing physician/surgeon from outside of North America. Just think of the competition that exists to get a residency for foreign grads in Canada. The best route is still to go to offshore medical schools and return to the USA as an IMG/FMG. But then again, if not an american or green card holder, that will remain difficult as one will need to obtain a J1 or H1B visa. No easy task these days.

Dr.R.Jiwan
12-23-2004, 09:51 AM
Thanks for the pointers valueless ...but u and azskeptic have got it all wrong ...all saints does not operate a medical school from within CANADA. They simply recruit students from Canada who are interested in their school ..they do nothing more. The Canadian government KNOWS that they are a tutorial session and they are registered - why does the college of physicians need to know anything. I called them up and they told me they had nothing to do with it and they dont CARE to know about it. They told me there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with having an office of admissions in CANADA for their carribbean univeristy. You really need to find out what you guys are talking about....

Dr.R.Jiwan

azskeptic
12-23-2004, 10:04 AM
Thanks for the pointers valueless ...but u and azskeptic have got it all wrong ...all saints does not operate a medical school from within CANADA. They simply recruit students from Canada who are interested in their school ..they do nothing more. The Canadian government KNOWS that they are a tutorial session and they are registered - why does the college of physicians need to know anything. I called them up and they told me they had nothing to do with it and they dont CARE to know about it. They told me there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with having an office of admissions in CANADA for their carribbean univeristy. You really need to find out what you guys are talking about....

Dr.R.Jiwan

Reviewing their website it appears this time they aren't trying to run claasses in Canada. Basically another new unproven medical school to watch to see what happens. A bit risky for those spending that much money and time.

wolfvgang22
12-23-2004, 03:57 PM
If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, then it must be a.....
(even if it does talk a la Dr. Doolittle)

teratos
12-23-2004, 05:20 PM
I think I'll reserve comment for 10 years. :roll:

With the caveat that one should let others be the lab rat. G

*WiSeGuY*
12-24-2004, 12:04 AM
If you have read my earlier postings it clearly states my opinion. I warned students who are looking into this school. Please don't misunderstand me. I know exactly what I am talking about and I did all the research. Also MEERC is conducting to pre-med courses in Canada the last time I checked.

dt
12-24-2004, 09:14 PM
I remembered the incident with St. James and the premed courses. If St. James did not feel confident that their students could get licensed with their premed done in Canada, what makes All Saint's (nee MEERC) think they have overcome the issue?

DrAlberto
12-26-2004, 01:40 AM
This topic is getting more interesting. I think it is time to declare my real identity. I am definitely not an aspiring medical student. Simply put, I hold a professional degree, licence, and a PhD. It has always intrigued me that people would go to private universities in the caribbeans to study Medicine, and I thought it would be a good idea to know what motivates the students and proprietors of such schools. I was doing my investigation when I found this site and, just as I said before, I have spent many nights reading through this message board. I think this website is one of the best things that ever happened to Medicine. I am excited to know that there is always a way to make dreams become reality. I salute the courage of people who would risk anything to achieve their dreams. Generally speaking, it is a great risk to leave North America for a medical school in some islands of less than 100 thousdand people, whether you are attending St George, St James, Ross or Xavier! The risk was higher 10-15 years ago when the average normal-thinking person would regard going to some private medical schools on an Island in the Caribbeans an academic comedy. Today, the risk is almost zero since all the rules are widely accessible and there are structures put in place to make sure they are followed. Anyone who wants to engage in this kind of adventure without carefully studying the rules has no business fiddling with the lives of other human beings. There is even a website (http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/) dedicated to this new development in the training of physicians. Anyone who is lazy enough not to read all these materials does not possess the work ethics needed for success in this profession. As for ASUM, they also have a website for people who can read.

In short, I am saying the advice and personal opinions of some people on this board should simply be ignored or, at best, be regarded as scaremongering. I was told a couple of weeks ago, on this board, that ASUM is unsafe because it was not listed on IMED two days after it received a charter. The new concern since they were listed is that the individuals who started the school are the issue. I have since found out the problems between the founders of this school and a few people on the islands and this board, including some schools.

My recent interest has been on trying to study why people post what they do on this board. This has led me to unmask a lot of posters on this board. I need to warn that the internet is not as anonymous as it often initially appears to be. I have said it before, and I say it again, my motivation for joining this thread is to defend the truth and promote objectivity. I would not want to say anything on this forum until I send private messages to the individuals concerned and obtain their responses to the information I have obtained. In the meantime, I would warn that it is not a good idea for people who live in glass houses to throw stones!

azskeptic
12-26-2004, 01:47 AM
This topic is getting more interesting. I think it is time to declare my real identity. I am definitely not an aspiring medical student. Simply put, I hold a professional degree, licence, and a PhD. It has always intrigued me that people would go to private universities in the caribbeans to study Medicine, and I thought it would be a good idea to know what motivates the students and proprietors of such schools. I was doing my investigation when I found this site and, just as I said before, I have spent many nights reading through this message board. I think this website is one of the best things that ever happened to Medicine. I am excited to know that there is always a way to make dreams become reality. I salute the courage of people who would risk anything to achieve their dreams. Generally speaking, it is a great risk to leave North America for a medical school in some islands of less than 100 thousdand people, whether you are attending St George, St James, Ross or Xavier! The risk was higher 10-15 years ago when the average normal-thinking person would regard going to some private medical schools on an Island in the Caribbeans an academic comedy. Today, the risk is almost zero since all the rules are widely accessible and there are structures put in place to make sure they are followed. Anyone who wants to engage in this kind of adventure without carefully studying the rules has no business fiddling with the lives of other human beings. There is even a website (http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com) dedicated to this new development in the training of physicians. Anyone who is lazy enough not to read all these materials does not possess the work ethics needed for success in this profession. As for ASUM, they also have a website for people who can read.

In short, I am saying the advice and personal opinions of some people on this board should simply be ignored or, at best, be regarded as scaremongering. I was told a couple of weeks ago, on this board, that ASUM is unsafe because it was not listed on IMED two days after it received a charter. The new concern since they were listed is that the individuals who started the school are the issue. I have since found out the problems between the founders of this school and a few people on the islands and this board, including some schools.

My recent interest has been on trying to study why people post what they do on this board. This has led me to unmask a lot of posters on this board. I need to warn that the internet is not as anonymous as it often initially appears to be. I have said it before, and I say it again, my motivation for joining this thread is to defend the truth and promote objectivity. I would not want to say anything on this forum until I send private messages to the individuals concerned and obtain their responses to the information I have obtained. In the meantime, I would warn that it is not a good idea for people who live in glass houses to throw stones!

There we go....so do you know the founders of this school and the previous MEERC program with St. James? Tell us more. Are you teaching there? Do you normally threaten people before you unmask them or do you unmak them? What can we expect from you?

ValuelessMD
12-26-2004, 05:19 AM
This topic is getting more interesting. I think it is time to declare my real identity. I am definitely not an aspiring medical student. Simply put, I hold a professional degree, licence, and a PhD.
Why would anyone appear to be someone their not, then expect their information to be seen as creditable?


It has always intrigued me that people would go to private universities in the caribbeans to study Medicine, and I thought it would be a good idea to know what motivates the students and proprietors of such schools. I was doing my investigation when I found this site and, just as I said before, I have spent many nights reading through this message board. I think this website is one of the best things that ever happened to Medicine.
What is the purpose of your investigation? The motives of the students are obvious. Your's not so much so.


My recent interest has been on trying to study why people post what they do on this board. This has led me to unmask a lot of posters on this board. I need to warn that the internet is not as anonymous as it often initially appears to be.
What is there to unmask? In as much as I don't agree with the majority and the intent of most on this website, it does still provide a starting point. One thing is for certain: That in life, everything needs to be met with a grain of salt; including yourself, myself and all the 'self's' out there.


I have said it before, and I say it again, my motivation for joining this thread is to defend the truth and promote objectivity.
Not unlike the majority of us. Just, people tend not to see things in the same line of sight.

For me, I wish all the best for ASUM and its success. I agree that with more choice will come more chances for one to succeed. However, I chose to comment on what I believed to be a concern.

DrAlberto
12-26-2004, 09:43 AM
Why would anyone appear to be someone their not, then expect their information to be seen as creditable?

People go into a chat room because they think it is anonymous. I am not interested in whether you believe me or not, at least I told you something about myself. And, reading between the lines to analyse every sentence I put on this forum, you should be able to say something about me. That is just a common sense context analytical study. I can also confidently say something about who you are, just by reading your postings. Whoever you pretend to be is none of my business, it is virtual space! But remember, this is not always as anonymous as it often initially appears to be. If you want to know me and take issues with me, pm me as soon as you can.


[quote]What is the purpose of your investigation? The motives of the students are obvious. Your's not so much so

The purpose of my investigation? That is very simple, to know how chat rooms are used as tools of information and disinformation, and to know how people like you want to use this space as a cheap advertisement tool to promote whatever interests or disinterests you have in the Caribbeans while actively pushing down any threat of competition (?) or retribution (?) at the same time. I am sure you don't want to take me on! Remember, this is christmas period and I have some time on my hands.


What is there to unmask?
First, there are people on this board who think Medicine is for the highest bidder. They think they can go to a medical school, fail exams and expect to be promoted to the next level even if they have nothing in their gray matter. But then, they will promptly go on a valueMD message board and say they are graduates of a university in Australia! They think all these are possible because the medical school is located in the Caribbeans. I have not had any contact with graduates of Caribbean medical schools but I know colleagues who have, both here in Canada and in the United States. If there is any complaint about them, it is not about a lack of academic excellence or poor clinical proficiency. People have told me that they are as good as graduates of onshore medical schools, and even better in some areas (especially in the basic sciences). People whose intellectual abilities do not measure up to this standard should simply quit medical school and go and find something else to do, instead of using this medium to misinform the world to make up for their academic disability.


To round up, I will answer some of the questions posted by one of the posters. First I don't teach in the Caribbeans although I have previously been invited to teach during my summer holidays by one of the schools, an offer I couldn't take up because of other commitments. ASUM recently invited me to be a visiting professor and I would be the most stupid person on earth if I don't make attempts to find out everything about them before dragging myself into the Caribbean picture. One of the most respected Anatomy Professors in my student days teaches at Ross. If that man could teach in a Caribbean medical school, I can confidently say those schools are not a joke. However, the jaundice in the eyes you are using to look at ASUM (or any other school not St James or Xavier) was enough to make me suspect your "good intentions" and receive your "virtual wisdom" with some grains of salt.

Again, someone asked if I knew the individuals who are proprietors of ASUM. Yes, I do. I met one of them (as a director of ASUM) on my trip to Toronto. And the exchanges on this board have made me to find out more about them, enough to know them better than one month ago.

More questions?

azskeptic
12-26-2004, 09:57 AM
Now that we know you have a vested interest in the Aruba school as a teacher, we know where you stand. This is good.

But why the need to 'threaten'. Is it your normal style to try and discourage conversation?

I'm not afraid of you myself. I'm not a student nor am I in a position where you can harm me but why would you keep acting like you want to fight? Whats the payoff for you? Professors normally are more reserved than that. What am I missing?

wolfvgang22
12-26-2004, 04:24 PM
My recent interest has been on trying to study why people post what they do on this board. This has led me to unmask a lot of posters on this board. I need to warn that the internet is not as anonymous as it often initially appears to be. I have said it before, and I say it again, my motivation for joining this thread is to defend the truth and promote objectivity. I would not want to say anything on this forum until I send private messages to the individuals concerned and obtain their responses to the information I have obtained. In the meantime, I would warn that it is not a good idea for people who live in glass houses to throw stones!
:lol: Go ahead and unmask away! I for one have nothing to be ashamed of. Just don't send me any spam, ok? :lol:

Let me save you some time, though. My motivation is:
1. To learn as much as I can about medicine and caribbean med schools in particular as a student, because knowledge is power,
2. To make friends and have fun
3. To help those who follow behind me in this adventure, as others who have gone before have helped me. 'Tis better to give than to receive, no?

As far as scaremongering goes, yeah, that happens here. Don't do it yourself! :lol:

teratos
12-26-2004, 04:32 PM
I hope nobody finds out MY true identity :shock:

dt
12-26-2004, 06:59 PM
Could be a moderator in disguise??

Otherwise, now we know the type of teacher ASUM is looking for -- one who can unmask. lol



ps. dont unmask me 'cause I still dont know who I am yet, and the shock of reality may be too much for me to handle.

ValuelessMD
12-26-2004, 08:34 PM
People go into a chat room because they think it is anonymous. I am not interested in whether you believe me or not, at least I told you something about myself.

What you have "told me" is that you're not creditable. Everything else about you, I could give a flying puck.


I can also confidently say something about who you are, just by reading your postings.

Yeah, so. Ditto, right?


Whoever you pretend to be is none of my business, it is virtual space!
You sure about that? Because you also say,
But remember, this is not always as anonymous as it often initially appears to be.


If you want to know me and take issues with me, pm me as soon as you can.

I don't do PM's, sorry. Anyway, one should not be so paranoid on this website. That kinda gives me the hebbie jebbies. Besides, the only issues I have are my ones from my Martha Stewart Living magazines.


The purpose of my investigation? That is very simple, to know how chat rooms are used as tools of information and disinformation, and to know how people like you want to use this space as a cheap advertisement tool to promote whatever interests or disinterests you have in the Caribbeans while actively pushing down any threat of competition (?) or retribution (?) at the same time.

Awh, man, you got me. I been found out. What to do now...


I am sure you don't want to take me on! Remember, this is christmas period and I have some time on my hands.

Even though I don't do christmas (I do a different religion), and as much as it is very temping because you have so much time on your hands, but, nah, I have no interest in taking you on... :microwav: Now, what button was that again, hmmm


What is there to unmask?
First, there are people on this board who think Medicine is for the highest bidder. They think they can go to a medical school, fail exams and expect to be promoted to the next level even if they have nothing in their gray matter. But then, they will promptly go on a valueMD message board and say they are graduates of a university in Australia! They think all these are possible because the medical school is located in the Caribbeans. I have not had any contact with graduates of Caribbean medical schools but I know colleagues who have, both here in Canada and in the United States. If there is any complaint about them, it is not about a lack of academic excellence or poor clinical proficiency. People have told me that they are as good as graduates of onshore medical schools, and even better in some areas (especially in the basic sciences). People whose intellectual abilities do not measure up to this standard should simply quit medical school and go and find something else to do, instead of using this medium to misinform the world to make up for their academic disability.

Can I offer you some syrup with that waffle?


To round up, I will answer some of the questions posted by one of the posters. First I don't teach in the Caribbeans although I have previously been invited to teach during my summer holidays by one of the schools, an offer I couldn't take up because of other commitments. ASUM recently invited me to be a visiting professor and I would be the most stupid person on earth if I don't make attempts to find out everything about them before dragging myself into the Caribbean picture. One of the most respected Anatomy Professors in my student days teaches at Ross. If that man could teach in a Caribbean medical school, I can confidently say those schools are not a joke.

uh huh, uh huh, go on, yes, oh yeah, and...


However, the jaundice in the eyes you are using to look at ASUM (or any other school not St James or Xavier) was enough to make me suspect your "good intentions" and receive your "virtual wisdom" with some grains of salt.

Wow, I have virtual wisdom. Cool! Oh, but you forgot to mention SC. What? Jaundice in my eyes? Darn UK health care! They told me it was because my bladder was full.


Again, someone asked if I knew the individuals who are proprietors of ASUM. Yes, I do. I met one of them (as a director of ASUM) on my trip to Toronto. And the exchanges on this board have made me to find out more about them, enough to know them better than one month ago.

Well, then, not all is lost.


More questions?

Yeah, if all I know, is that I know nothing, then, how is it, I know what I don't know?

Born2BFree
12-26-2004, 10:24 PM
Hi all,

As a student who initially knew nothing about the rigamarole of applying and getting through medical school but had to learn a lot of it the hard way, I find this site and the people constructively contributing to it to be veritable treasure trove of information.

That being said, I am also a student from St James who is now transferring out of there to All Saints. I do happen to know some of the people currently at All Saints and have received very positive information regarding them. I too have done my research with this school and its individuals and I feel quite confident in my decision to transfer there. I also feel that my experiences with St James and XUSOM gives me enough of a stance to inform anyone regarding these schools.

IF you are looking for any objective questions regarding this school, St James or even XUSOM, I can provide it. I was considering applying to XUSOM, but did not feel comfortable with many aspects of how the individuals running the school were going about it.

I am not the only student considering transferring out of St James and for those interested it has nothing to do with my grades. I can only take so much incompetence.

It seems a lot of these new schools use scaremongering tactics to get students to transfer here and there. I can even provide examples of such schools who have done this.

Suffice it to say, from a first hand point of view ASUM is a much better option than any of the schools currently running on the island. It is a political pithole of paranoia down there and the rivalry between the two schools (St James and XUSOM) is disgusting. I did not ever think for even once that medical establishments are run in such a shameful manner. I am sure a lot you out there have undergone a similar situation and that is the reason why sites such as these there. However, posting truth over fiction, is the more helpful and that is the reason why I am posting.
I do realize that with all new schools there will be a certain amount of bashing (seems a trend on this forum) but that's fine as long as its true. Saying that it a new school and is yet to be proven is fine. Saying that it was not listed on the IMED when it wasn't is fine too (it is now listed in IMED when last I checked). But making students believe absurd things like (and I am talking about Wiseguys initial posting)
"Legit U.S. Office, after all your main goal is to get into US Hospitals. US contact information." to be a requirement for choosing a school is outright ridiculous. Additionally,
"5. Labs/Cadevaers". I know for a fact that SJSM does not have cadavers and certainly XUSOM does not have cadavers. Not to mention the fact that cadavers are no longer used in some US and Canadian medical schools. Anyway, it makes one thing that if the school Wiseguy is going to does not provide such facilities, then why even bring it up? Ulterior motive... me thinks perhaps. ;) Anyway, I could post loads more regarding these schools.... or at least the experiences of myself and my colleagues.

In defence of Dr Alberto, who may seem quite harsh in his tone, I think he may have been directing his accusations towards Wiseguy, whom I know of on the island. He too used to be a student of St James, but has currently transferred to XUSOM. Word is that he did not do too well in premed and has a grudge towards one of the individuals from ASUM.

I myself opted to be a passive observer of this forum, but the current disinformation is appalling. For one, the Basic Sciences portion of ASUM is being run on the island of Aruba ONLY. They run prequisite courses and preperatory courses in Toronto. This scenario in no way is illegal and from what I know the officials from the Canadian government have already made site visits to ASUM's Toronto location and deemed everything as fine and legal. One would think that by now, if it were an illegal operation it would have already been shut down in the once of strictest countries in the world for medical practice. Additionally such a scenario would by no means cause a licensing issue of any sort to the best of my knowledge. But then again, I'm not a JD in immigration law either :)

Presently, I am just hoping that I get my transcripts from St James so I can transfer out successfully. It seems acquiring transcripts is another whole task onto itself, especially when asked from institutions that are hesitant to give it out.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Years to all.

ValuelessMD
12-26-2004, 10:45 PM
Objectively then, what is so wrong with SJ and Xavier? And is Aruba that different to Bonaire? What is ALL SAINTS doing that is so right?

Much has been said about SJ but not too much about Xavier, what do you know about Xavier when comparing to All Saints?

Care to comment?

Born2BFree
12-26-2004, 11:41 PM
Objectively then, what is so wrong with SJ and Xavier? And is Aruba that different to Bonaire? What is ALL SAINTS doing that is so right?

Much has been said about SJ but not too much about Xavier, what do you know about Xavier when comparing to All Saints?

Care to comment?

Wow!
That was a fast response! I was just going back to edit my previous message for errors when I noticed a reply already.
Well, considering I could write pages about SJSM, I'll inform you about Xaviers. From what I know from some of my colleagues who were at SJSM before me, these guys used to come down to Bonaire to scare off the initial first and second semester classes that were at SJSM. They conconcted tails of licensing issues and sueing the school. Some of students actually got scared by this and left. Pretty low to start off with, especially considering SJSM was just in its beginning stages. The students were already scared and they were employing bullying tactics. Pretty soon after this, rumours were about of another school opening up...and lo and behold.. Xaviers opens up on the island.
The previous posts about Xaviers trying to take students and staff from SJSM are true and they were very aggressive about it as well. Not to say our school was any better, but their methods were plain and simply unethical no matter how you looked at it. Professors were in essence being poached. This caused further strife when SJSM had to hire more professors and at times we were lacking professors to teach classes. So it was a matter of juggling the existing professors (not successfully I might add too). Don't get me wrong. there are a few fine professors from SJSM but you can't expect one professor to teach more than he/she can handle.
So this is an example of how Xavier was going about things.
Furthermore, they would have the audacity to post up flyers at our school saying that there was a new school opening up and to come and visit their seminars!! These are only a few things. The main points that affected me when looking in Xaviers was its mysterious loan situation. For one, they claimed to be working with SC. Then claimed SC was their consultants and there was no other affiliation between the schools, yet we were asked to send loan application to SC! In effect, it would look like Xaviers was a branch campus of SC for the matter of loan purposes! Yet the school claimed no ties other than consultancy.
Their clinical rotations was another thing. I have contacted various students who are at Xaviers now and who are doing clinical rotations. I remember Xaviers harping about how all their rotations were done IN ACGME accredited hospital. THey made it look like they owned Atlanta General Hospital... which on my research it is not. It so happens that one of the individuals running the school works at Atlanta General as a physician.. this same individual runs PGY1MD. They are nothing but clinical coordinators for that one hospital. On further research I found out that the individual assumed his position at that hospital no more than 3 or 4 years ago. Also, to furhter discredit SJSM, they maintained that no rotations could be done in clinics. I did not know this at the time and whole heardtedly believed this. This led me to believe that practically all of SJSM's rotations were invalid. What they failed to neglect to mention was that unless the rotation tied back to a ACGME accredited hospital even it was in a clinic, then there was no problem. I found this out when I realized that their own students (Xaviers) was doing just that! Rotating in clinics which tied back to Atlanta General. From the way they were going about it, I was under the impression I would be AT atlanta general NOT in some clinic in some bad neighbourhood... to me they seem to boast alot and have an air of false granduosity. This worked well in the beginning but not for long.
Anyway... that should give you an idea of how they were going about things. Not to say that SJSM was any better.
ASUM on the hand are being run by individuals that I have had previous contact with. And I know them to be genuine people from my interaction with them. I can tell you once thing. SJSM started in one room near a casino with one prof teaching all the courses (this can be verified from any of the 1st starting semester class) and Xaviers started off by directly feeding off from St James. Xaviers has very few actual students of their own. Most are St James transfers. ASUM for a school just starting has much better facilities. I'd even have to say they have real washrooms :) Only the St James students will get that one. But please, don't let washrooms be the deciding factor for going to any medical school :)
Also, I've visited Aruba and it just a fascinating island. Much better than Bonaire in all aspects. Just by visiting Aruba and talking to some of the staff, I can see why the schools in Bonaire are getting all finnicky about All Saints opening up in an island soo close by. And yes I have seen the ASUM campus and it is a far cry much better than anything SJSM or Xaviers has to offer.

Anyway.. that should be objective enough I think.
I'm sure this email will offend a few people... but these are my experiences.

Happy Holidays.

Dr.R.Jiwan
01-02-2005, 04:52 PM
sup guys ...

thanks for the info you recently posted ..awesome work. For all the rest ..you've bin PUNKED..u guys are gettin pissed off at alberto and acting like little children ...your not even worthy to post a reply if its gonna be tight like that ..two words - Grow uP ..like really. If you cant give a mature response to anyone on the post ..then keep it shut. If anyones wondering, i dont know this alberto dude ...but i do know that you guys (wiseguy and azsp...wuteva) make me sick. I know not to go to any school that would admit people like you ...those schools are the ones that need to be looked into rigorously ...if this offends you ...deal with it

Dr.R.Jiwan

dt
01-02-2005, 10:09 PM
sup guys ...

thanks for the info you recently posted ..awesome work. For all the rest ..you've bin PUNKED..u guys are gettin pissed off at alberto and acting like little children ...your not even worthy to post a reply if its gonna be tight like that ..two words - Grow uP ..like really. If you cant give a mature response to anyone on the post ..then keep it shut. If anyones wondering, i dont know this alberto dude ...but i do know that you guys (wiseguy and azsp...wuteva) make me sick. I know not to go to any school that would admit people like you ...those schools are the ones that need to looked into rigorously ...if this offends you ...deal with it

Dr.R.Jiwan


And this is an example of how a "Grow uP" should behave.

lol

azskeptic
01-02-2005, 10:11 PM
sup guys ...

thanks for the info you recently posted ..awesome work. For all the rest ..you've bin PUNKED..u guys are gettin pissed off at alberto and acting like little children ...your not even worthy to post a reply if its gonna be tight like that ..two words - Grow uP ..like really. If you cant give a mature response to anyone on the post ..then keep it shut. If anyones wondering, i dont know this alberto dude ...but i do know that you guys (wiseguy and azsp...wuteva) make me sick. I know not to go to any school that would admit people like you ...those schools are the ones that need to looked into rigorously ...if this offends you ...deal with it

Dr.R.Jiwan


And this is an example of how a "Grow uP" should behave.

lol

I think I am supposed to be feeling chastised but I am not sure?

Dr.R.Jiwan
01-03-2005, 09:07 PM
this is the ONLY way to deal with immature fools ...keep em coming i expected this 8)

lswiltshire
01-04-2005, 06:52 AM
You can rant and rave as much as you like but if this school is not legitimate, you will be exposed!

IF AZSKEPTIC DONT CLOSE YOU...... ONE OF US MUST. LOL

Best Wishes

ValuelessMD
01-04-2005, 08:53 AM
This school might be a good idea, but without a loan program this school and ones like it will be dead in the water. I believe this school only has loans for Canadians through CanHelp. So, to the point... Why have a Toronto based company owning an Aruba Medical School that can only cater to Canadian students who will need to go to the USA to finish. Just think of the visa nightmares when trying to get all those J1's, M1's H1B's, etc. for Canadians wanting to set up in the USA, because as it stands now, it is pretty much impossible to get back to Canada to practice.

Born2BFree
01-07-2005, 10:50 PM
This school might be a good idea, but without a loan program this school and ones like it will be dead in the water. I believe this school only has loans for Canadians through CanHelp. So, to the point... Why have a Toronto based company owning an Aruba Medical School that can only cater to Canadian students who will need to go to the USA to finish. Just think of the visa nightmares when trying to get all those J1's, M1's H1B's, etc. for Canadians wanting to set up in the USA, because as it stands now, it is pretty much impossible to get back to Canada to practice.

Loans alone do not make or break a school. As for acquiring loans, it is procedural and takes time. So what's your point? Other schools are facing the same issues. If anything, the whole loan situation has made schools offering lower fees a more appealing choice. This works in ASUM's advantage from what I can see. I suggest you think about your comments before making them.
And where on earth did you get the idea that ASUM caters ONLY to Canadian students? Just because they have a facility in Toronto by no means implies it is tailor made for Canadians ONLY. Do not make assumptions. Any student from any country can apply to the MD program at any school.
As for the Canadian spin, I'm sure you know how hard it is to get into a Canadian medical school? Well, being a Canadian who first considered the Canadian route, let me tell you, with the required minimum required GPA being usually 3.6 and the average GPA to get into medical schools (excluding Macmaster and NOMAD which have somewhat different criteria) in Canada ranging from 3.83-3.86, it's tough. I'm not sure what the standard deviation on that figure is but I assure you, it wouldn't deviate much. Additionally, these are not just bookworm type academic students... these are well rounded students with a multitude of acheivements, extra curricular activities and leadership qualities. Academic merits alone won't gaurantee you a placement. I've known student with 4.0's (on a 4.0 scale) and no extra curriculars who could not get into med school in Canada.
Do you know that Canada has the 2nd highest medical student to country population ratio in the world? 2nd only to Albania. Not to mention Canada is noted to be the toughest country to get into medschool. I knew students who would finish their BSc... apply for med.. not get in... then get a MSc just so they could pad their resume and apply for med... at this point those that still do not get in went on to get their PhD... Extremely lengthy process and the idea of getting into an MD program of 6 years after acquiring a PhD would make many a student think twice if not thrice. A regular BSc student has to not only compete with exceptionally high standards, they also have to compete against MSc's and Phd's to get into medschool in Canada.
Canada doesn't just take the cream of the crop.. they take the fluff that's on the cream. The reasons for such a high standard is based on the simple rule of demand and supply. Canada has VERY LIMITED medical spots open and few medical universities. They have an extremely small supply of post graduate education spots as well. And therein lies the problem. Because of this limited availability of post graduate medical education in canadian teaching hospitals, the medical schools have to limit enrolment to match available spots. Which is another reason why FMG's have such a hard time getting residency spots in Canada. Its not because the canadian government is against FMG.. it's because they barely have enough spots for their own students. The FMG's get whatever few residency spots that are available, which is pretty limited. However, I personally have friends both in the Ministry of Education and Ministry of Health.. so I have bit more of an inside scoop on the situation. Suffice it to say, the Canadian government is working to increase slots and make laws a bit easier. However, beaurocratic redtape does take time.
As for one obvious reply that someone might counter with.. why don't u go to a US medical school? Answer is simple. The Canadian dollar is lower than the American dollar. US fees for med school are off the charts for the regular individual and I have no intention of having a 200G debt.
So to answer your question. Yes.. I personally would take the chance of going through a bit of hassle to get my visas than have no chance at all.
But to harp on the visa issue... You might say.. oh its so hard to get a visa... well you know what.. I've had plenty of friends go through foreign medical schools, graduate, get their visas and practice in the states. Also if u follow the proper procedures.. attain good USMLE scores and not fail them, get US experience, apply for residency in x number years after graduation from medical school, get good letters of reference, make an impression with your preceptors, and do your cores in ACGME hospitals, and if you make a really good impression with a residency director get a post residency spot... you will find that there will be hospitals who are willing to grant you visas.. sure its paperwork for them... but if you are an excellent student, they'll do the extra paperwork. And you won't want to get kicked out of clinical rotations either. Do all this and you'll find your MD degree won't be as valueless as you think... Chances are you won't have to be working in a factory and living at home with your parents with your valueless MD :wink: Your best bet is to get mentors who know the ropes and how to attain it. Where there is a will there is a way... cliche but true.
So what does this boil down to? Study and work hard for the goals you set, and don't be the mediocre or average student. Nobody ever said getting an MD degree was easy. If you want something in life, you work for it and attain it...
So yeah... in summary.. I sure as hell would and am taking that route. :)

Dr.R.Jiwan
01-07-2005, 11:20 PM
important thing to note: many of you are threatning ASUM on the basis of false information..why? some of you lost your flow because you didnt do your research in the past...it seems that you made mistakes because you had trouble doing research to begin with ...based on your arguments ...none of you have proved yourselves to be correct..you guys are just helpless when it comes to researching. It seems there is a lack of research skills amongst many of you. The basis for which you target ASUM are completely based on your own intention to discredit an educational institution without any prior knowledge...the reasons being quite obvious! It burns don't it ...

*WiSeGuY*
01-10-2005, 12:11 AM
Its not about research. I wanted to provide information based upon my experiences with this individual. You could come back on this forum and insult me, I really don't care. I am here just to provide information. My intention is not to discredit any school. All the schools start from somewhere. So I don't really care. Its just my opinion and I am sorry I don't like wasting my time on things that I already know.
Thank You!!

Jinxy
01-10-2005, 09:44 PM
Its not about research. I wanted to provide information based upon my experiences with this individual. You could come back on this forum and insult me, I really don't care. I am here just to provide information. My intention is not to discredit any school. All the schools start from somewhere. So I don't really care. Its just my opinion and I am sorry I don't like wasting my time on things that I already know.
Thank You!!

Alright, Wiseguy. I think it's time I spoke up in here again. I have posted a couple of times before (about a year and a half ago) in the St. James forum, but all my posts were somehow mysteriously deleted mere minutes after I posted them. I didn't realize till recently that this was because of the moderators of the various forums, until I read a post where someone advised (to someone else on a completely unrelated matter on ValueMD) that if we wanted something to stay on without threat of being prematurely deleted, we could post it in this Main Foreign School forum. Ah, so many wasted posts. But better late than never, I suppose.

I would like to state that I am glad that a forum such as ValueMD exists because it was one of the main sources of information for myself, once I was aware of Caribbean medical schools. Even though I have been unable to post for a while, I have been following the forums all along. While the majority of posts should be 'taken with a grain of salt', there are, however, a select few regular posters on ValueMD who do seem to make exceptionally well researched judgements, and to present fairly objective and unbiased views, with a view on providing reliable information to aspiring caribbean medical students. However, in regards to this particular thread, a lot of disinformation has been presented due to the supposed lack of information to the contrary, and sadly some opinions have not proved to be as objective as they could have been.

Wiseguy, on the other hand, has a completely different motive from simply 'providing his opinion' for the good of the whole. I have to say that I am quite disgusted by your accusations, Wiseguy. You have chosen to personally attack, without any real grounds, an individual on a public forum, when that individual is not even on the forum. Out of the many, many of us students who have dealt with this individual, (most of whom are very well aware of ValueMD), you are the only one to post in such a shameless manner against the person you speak of. A lot of my friends are equally appalled at your conduct.

Having dealt with this individual myself from his affiliation with Saint James, I believe I can comment on my experiences with 'the individual' you keep mentioning, as well as on my experiences with Saint James.

Firstly, I would like to say, being a Canadian Citizen looking into medical school, I was at a point completely unaware of the existence of Caribbean schools. That is, until I met this 'individual'. Did you know about Caribbean medical schools before you ran into this individual? Unlike you, I am extremely grateful for the service I was provided, and acknowledge all the good work and genuine effort that was put into making me more knowledgeable about a Carribean school option, that I would have otherwise not known about. Everything that this individual said to me, was always verified by the SJSM Head Office, whenever I placed a call in to the Head Office in Chicago. Everything that he said corroborated what was on the SJSM website or brochures. From what I know, everything he said seemed to be coming directly from SJSM Head Office. The majority of us students at SJSM were Canadian at the time. SJSM was built to what it is today on the foundation of Canadian students.

I would like to clarify a point on your initial post where you make a comment that students should "beware of a $2000 legal fee or anything". When I sent my certified cheque for any fees during my dealings with this individual and Saint James School of Medicine, I was always told to make any cheques payable to Saint James, NOT to anyone else. Whom did you send your money too? If not to SJSM, then why are you the odd one out of all of us who sent a cheque somewhere else?

So where can we be getting this $2000 figure from anyway? The SJSM Head Office? The SJSM website? Yes indeedy.

Hmmm.... let's go there for a confirmation, shall we... SJSM website (dated Monday 10th, 2005).... Admissions.... Tuition and Fees.... there we go:

"All students are required to pay an Enrollment/Administration Fee of US$ 2000. Tuition Fees For the Clinical Clerkship and MD. Variable Hospital Surcharge is applicable during Clinical Clerkship. All charges are due 30 days before the beginning of semester. Defaulters may not register for classes and are liable for a penalty of US$ 200. Official transcripts etc. may not be issued until all dues are cleared. A student approved for loans but waiting for disbursement may provisionally register for classes. "

Let's see.... ASUM website (dated Monday 10th, 2005).... MD Degree Programs.... Fees.... what do we have here, any mention of a $2000 levy?:

"All students pay an enrollment/administrative fee of US$300 (in addition to the US$100 application fee) at the onset or beginning of a course of study at All Saints University of Medicine. Fees are due one month prior to commencement of the enrolled program. If fees are not paid on time, deregistration may occur. A $250 penalty will be applied upon reinstatement."

So, I have to ask you, Wiseguy... are you a crackpot? :) Where or to whom is this $2000 administrative fee going to? How are you connecting it to ASUM or to this individual? More importantly, WHY are you connecting it to ASUM, and then stating that you're not out to 'discredit any school'? We are all aware of the rumours that abounded at a point within Bonaire. Let me tell you, I would believe this individual's word over the SJSM administration any day, and this, my dear fellow, is from personal experience. I would have to say, in my humble opinion, that anyone who's presenting false information about a new school out of nowhere (or else your research skills must really suck), before it has even commenced classes, is a bit odd. (which school are you at again right now?)

Oh, and we all know how reliable SJSM is, when it comes to keeping their word. The SJSM website itself is a prime example of what it is to 'mislead' people. What with their "Labs" as depicted in the photos on their website, and their "hospital affiliations" (as a very observent person on ValueMD managed to notice). But let's not forget the very expensive $4000 fee we have to pay in order to transfer out of St. James... and whatever happened to those Harvard Clinical Rotations that have been promised since day one from the mouth of the president of SJSM himself? I don't hear you crying foul about that? Oh, wait, you're not at St. James anymore! Why is that again? (Goodness, so many questions!) So, then you need to scapegoat your failures on someone or something, I guess. Where did you transfer to? So you're jumping from school to school now, it seems. And yet you comment on this individual 'jumping from school to school'? So now you're not only a crackpot, you're a hypocrite too! (lol) I don't blame this individual for wanting to get away from SJSM and move on. I can tell you one thing for sure, a lot of us were upset when he left SJSM, and that reflects positively on this individual and the stabilizing effect he had on SJSM while he was there.

I personally am very happy for this individual, because he has finally managed to accomplish what he said he would. What he said he was going to do, he has delivered. It took a long time coming, but here we have it - All Saints University of Medicine. And I have noted that he has partnered up with equally genuine people - all of them are well known throughout, as well as outside of, Bonaire. I'm sure his reputation in Aruba will soon be evident.

You say that only genuine and good people will succeed. He has succeeded. Have you?

Many of us have passed our USMLE Step 1 (although many did not), all due to this particular individual opening the door so that we could step a foot in, and we are all extremely grateful for that. We were given a chance to succeed, and made full use of it. In the end, it was our own efforts that determined our success.

What is your motive? What real life incidents are you referring to? What were you sweet-talked into? How were you victimized? Are you depressed or something, or are you just seeking to slander someone's name? Those who are unable to succeed are usually the ones who suddenly seem to have something to prove about how bad other people are. I guess it draws attention away from your own failures.

Keep one thing in mind. You are seeking a medical education. It's not easy to become a doctor, whatever route you may take. You may pass out from your Basic Sciences somehow from some school that might take pity upon you, but in the end, it's passing the USMLE that matters. Go and do something more productive with your time, instead of trying to slander other people. Success is earned. Don't try and dissuade other people from potentially succeeding (where you have failed) at other schools, by spreading your lies. And please, don't especially slander someone who has enlightened a lot of grateful students like myself to alternative options. If I hadn't met this individual, I wouldn't be where I am today - a soon to be doctor. The medical profession is better off when people like you are excluded from it.

Dr.R.Jiwan
01-10-2005, 10:02 PM
now that you've put wiseguy in his place ..we will see the immaturity sprout amongst him and his peers!! ...you fools can't even defend yourselves ..the silence proves you got NOTHING! ..if med school aint keeping you busy enough find something better to do with your time ...FOOL!

*WiSeGuY*
01-11-2005, 01:05 AM
I think this post is getting a little bit out of hand. You are lucky this forum doesn't allow to mention people's name or anything or I will mention everything. Couple of things to keep in mind. Technically when you graduate from a caribbean school you recieve your degree to work in the US. None of the three individuals are from the US. Tell me if that is really important. I think it is important to have some kind of permanent status in the US. Second, none of the Medical Doctors. I have to admit that he is a very good adminstrator but not qualified to run a medical school. Tell, how do you hire a professor?

Also I have never stated anything about the application fees ($2000.00). I paid it and I don't really care. You have joined this forum since Jan.10, 2005. You just signed up just get back at me. I don't really care. I wonder who you are?

This individual has introduced many of us in to caribbean medical school system but that doesn't mean he could promote one school then when he switches over to another that he drags everyone to the other schools he is going to.

There is a lot of difference between a student transferring from one school to another than a professor or staff transferring from school to school.

I see you are mixing up everything. Again, I want to clearly state my opinion. The information I am providing is solely based on my experience and this could be used as one of you resources to make your decision wisely. Please don't use "crackpot" or those kind of language. Its not very professional. We are all mature adults. I am not slandering any individuals, I am just letting everyone know what is going on. If you don't want to know about just ignore. Don't come back and make me look like some fool because I am not. I am in the system and no matter happens I will make it thorugh. I am very close finishing my basic sciences.

Thank You

Jinxy
01-11-2005, 02:39 PM
Alright, I apologize for calling you a crackpot. But I do have a question: Are you on crack?

If you ask me, it's you who seems to be really confused, and who's mixing everything up.

And yes, was it not clear that the only reason I created an account again was because of what you were saying? I believe that was part of my first paragraph. I guess I should have explicitly mentioned that I was unable to log into my account for the time that I wasn't able to post, and so I just
viewed the forum as a guest. So when I finally decided to try and post again, I created a new account. Tell me, if you can't even piece that together, then how do you expect to think critically about anything else?


Couple of things to keep in mind. Technically when you graduate from a caribbean school you recieve your degree to work in the US. None of the three individuals are from the US. Tell me if that is really important. I think it is important to have some kind of permanent status in the US. Second, none of the Medical Doctors. I have to admit that he is a very good adminstrator but not qualified to run a medical school. Tell, how do you hire a professor?

"Technically", when you graduate from a caribbean medical school, you receive your degree to work in the Caribbean. What do you think ECFMG/MCC is for?

Why don't you do me a favor. Spare me the need to waste time doing your research. Look into the history of one of the "Big name" Caribbean medical schools. Then re-evaluate what you stated above.

You know what, you might have some difficulty with that task. Let me at least give you an excerpt to make things a wee bit easier for you:

"In 1978, another idea surfaced -- expanding the recruitment program. It was suggested that I open my own medical school. I was astounded that
anyone would think that I -- a person with no medical or education background -- would attempt such a project. My company was an import/export business, dealing in petroleum, petrol chemicals, grain, coal, steel, fertilizers, semiconductors, and other commodities. However, the idea persisted, and I was convinced that I should at least consider opening a medical school. I love a challenge - especially one for which there is a great need."

The above quote is from the founder of one of the current top 5 caribbean medical schools. What are you going to say now about the need for being qualified as a medical doctor in order to successfully run a medical school? You know what, I don't really care to know. Everything you have said so far is a joke. How come your criteria for a 'legitimate' Carib med school keeps changing? Now it's not the location of the Head Office that matters, it's the residency status of the people operating it? What next? Their country of origin?


Also I have never stated anything about the application fees ($2000.00). I paid it and I don't really care. You have joined this forum since Jan.10, 2005. You just signed up just get back at me. I don't really care. I wonder who you are? .... ..... I am not slandering any individuals, I am just letting everyone know what is going on. If you don't want to know about just ignore. Don't come back and make me look like some fool because I am not. I am in the system and no matter happens I will make it thorugh. I am very close finishing my basic sciences.

You say you're not slandering any individuals, and yet you say that this individual is dishonest, misleading and manipulative (If you've forgotten about that, refer to your first post in this thread). Should I give you the dictionary meaning of 'slander'? You say you never stated anything about the $2000 fees, and yet in your first post you mention a $2000 fee. Where is this figure coming from then? I for one, will not stand by and let you run your mouth off about someone to whom I'm very grateful to. You yourself have just admitted that he's the one who's set you on your way to "finishing your basic sciences".

Oh, and by the way, I wasn't dragged anywhere by anyone. I have the intelligence to make informed decisions by myself once someone lights the path, as do many other students. What happened to you? So you're saying you were mislead and victimized because this individual transferred to a different school? You know, from what I see of your last post, there's really no point in even replying to you. God only knows where you get your information from. I only hope that you're not being someone else's pawn right now. It sounds like someone is using their scaremongering tactics on you (try and make the connection, will you? That's what I just did.). That, if nothing else, is suddenly becoming clear. If you are who I think you are, you did not strike me as being the type to stoop so low like this otherwise. My advice to you is to focus on your studies, and not bother jumping on public forums wasting time falsely complaining about being victimized.

I wish you the best of luck in anything that you may do, you certainly will need it.

stephew
01-11-2005, 03:38 PM
the fifth thread today with flaming and insults. locked.

ontoallsaints
11-25-2005, 11:30 AM
beware of 'All Saints School" in Aruba!

after thorogh research, we have uncovered the following:

-this school is a scam

-it is run by a retired mechanical engineer

- they accept anyone that applies into their so-called md program, even high school kids with no pre-med whatsoever!

-he knows nothing about medicine or medical education

-his own son can't even pass usmle step 1 for over 2 years now

-they run the school's admin out of their house in canada

-and the classes are held in a shopping mall in some crime infested island

-they lie to students telling them that residency is gauranteed

-the other guy who helps run the school, himself was enrolled at another scam carib med school but never took the boards and never finished the program

-the recruit gullible sri lankans from the greater toronto area, none of whom have any idea what a scam this school really is!


. . . more to come

ontoallsaints
11-25-2005, 12:00 PM
Spread The Word!!

Sunster99
11-25-2005, 02:57 PM
Gullible Sri Lankans in the GTA? LOL I'm gonna ask my Tamil friend if he's ever heard of this place.

maximillian genossa
11-27-2005, 03:38 PM
Wow! This is juicy



beware of 'All Saints School" in Aruba!

after thorogh research, we have uncovered the following:

-this school is a scam

-it is run by a retired mechanical engineer

- they accept anyone that applies into their so-called md program, even high school kids with no pre-med whatsoever!

-he knows nothing about medicine or medical education

-his own son can't even pass usmle step 1 for over 2 years now

-they run the school's admin out of their house in canada

-and the classes are held in a shopping mall in some crime infested island

-they lie to students telling them that residency is gauranteed

-the other guy who helps run the school, himself was enrolled at another scam carib med school but never took the boards and never finished the program

-the recruit gullible sri lankans from the greater toronto area, none of whom have any idea what a scam this school really is!


. . . more to come

ontoallsaints
01-24-2006, 06:15 PM
-picture of school on their website is that of a shopping mall!

-run by two guys (one of whom is a retired mechanical engineer who was fired from st james for fraud, sexual harrassment and other criminal behaviour)

more to come, PM us for full report sent to your email address!

ontoallsaints
01-25-2006, 04:58 PM
uncovered more dirt on All Saints in Aruba:



All saints graduates (they have zero so far)
can not get licensed in Aruba or in Holland.

There are changes going on in
the Netherland Antilles in terms of recognition of med schools etc.


HOW PATHETIC!

So basically if you go to this scam school you can't ever practice in the country that the school is located in!

BTW: you won't ever get a residency in the U.S. either and as for Canada. . . in your dreams.

DrAlberto
01-30-2006, 08:02 AM
Ontoallsaints,
I have been tracking you for a while. Let me re-introduce myself. I am writing from Alberta, Canada. I have good insider information about All Saints University of Medicine (ASUM). My role is to directly offer an insider critique of everything done by ASUM. I have played this role since the school started. I fit perfectly into this role because, for several years, I have been part of academic/research staff in medical schools spanning three continents. Caribbean Medical Schools offer a new paradigm for medical training worldwide. A decade ago, one would have thought private medical education would be an exclusive domain of extremely rich private universities. The Caribbean model is a complete reversal of that assumption, breaking the walls that some elites worldwide built around the practice of medicine. Who would have thought that two determined visionaries, without a history of wealth comparable to Bill Gates’ or Johns Hopkins’ or DeVry’s, could help people like you to actualize their burning ambition of becoming physicians? You are a beneficiary of that change, Dr. A.R. You have benefited from this free-market approach to medical education. It is surprising that you have made opposing a rapidly growing medical school your target. All Saints have their shortcomings, which people like me bring to their attention from day to day. The results of their response to such criticism is there for everyone to see, they are easily the fastest growing new medical school on the Caribbean!


Now, back to you, Dr A.R.! You can run but not hide; your IP addresses show that you keep changing your user name. What is your problem with All Saints? You finally got a residency position and thought it is now time to bite the finger that fed you when you could not get one because of your mediocre USMLE scores. I think a resident should spend more time in the hospital rather than running amok over the Internet. It could also be helpful if you spend more time developing or updating your comatose websites. It is rather shameful that you now hate everything Canadian. I have also followed your comments on other issues over the Internet. It is surprising that you are now doing a residency in a country you openly castigated following the 9-11 attack. Where do you stand now Dr. A.R.? You cannot build an enduring house on shifting sand.


I have investigated all your allegations with ASUM officials, thinking there was something they could improve upon following your write-ups on ValueMD. I was surprised to hear that you were fired from MEERC (the owners of ASUM) for sexual harassment, incompetence and mediocre USMLE grades after several attempts! I was provided with evidence that showed that the same IP address you initially used to apply for a job at MEERC is the one you use to slander the same organization that fed you for 8 months before you were fired. You kept sending unethical and highly obnoxious e-mails to the organization from the same address. You may have to prepare for a tough legal battle ahead.


If you like I will pm you on all your messages and different usernames. I could also provide you a linguistic analysis to show that the same person, Dr. A.R, wrote all the postings.


To other readers of this forum, I needed to respond to Ontarioallsaints to provide a background for the interpretation of everything written by this fellow. This is an informative website that should not be used to settle personal scores!

teratos
01-30-2006, 08:27 AM
Let's be careful with the allegations we make, shall we? G

ontoallsaints
01-30-2006, 12:09 PM
DrAlberto is the guy who runs all saints (PPL)
read his post carefull, you will notice what kind of person he really is
is funny how he mentions a 'legal battle'
he used to work for st james, was fired because he was stealing money, and sexually harassing young sri lankan girls.
later st james fired him and then sued him

he then was involved with 4 more foreign/caribbean schools - kigezi, xavier, grace and st martinus

he unilaterally broke contracts with them all, they sued him

this guy has been in and out of toronto courts for about 3 years now

he does not care how much trouble he gets into as long as he can make a fast buck

he ruins peoples lives, goes around toronto spreading lies to the sri lankan community about his school, and these recent immigrants actually think that his scam school is legit and they pay thousands to send their gullible young kids (many of whom are straight out of high school)

he doesn't care, as long as he keeps getting those checks, he even sent his own son to st james back in 2001, poor young guy has not been able to pass usmle step 1 since august of 2003

making money in a business is good, but it should be done ethically, sooner or later (sooner is our prediction) the parents and students he has scammed will rise up and sue him, and this time no bank will help him in trying to get loans/funds to fight the lawsuit

he has no where to run or hide, he lives in brampton, ontario and everyone knows it

st james, kigezi, xavier, grace and st martinus are all watching him and boy has he made a lot of enemies, the other guy who helps him run the school is perhaps the most unfortunate because he is caught in a mess that he can't get out of . . . it does not pay to become business partners with a retired mechanical engineer, from sri lanka, who knows nothing about medicine or medical education, runs a med school out of canada, that is located in the caribbean, that supposedly leads to a job in the U.S. . . . yeah whatever

we (investigators) of this school predict: This scam school - all saints- will have similar fate as St J a m e s (the other scam school that the owner used to recruit for). St J a m e s has taken over 800 students since they opened in 2000, and to date only 7 have been able to get a residency in the U.S. the difference is that st james is run by a guy who worked for caribbean med schools for 20 years, whereas all saints. . .run by a known criminal who will see the inside of a prison very soon

DrAlberto
01-30-2006, 11:38 PM
Ontoallsaints,
It appears you think this is funny! I am not PPL. In your position, I would go back to the very first post I put on this forum on November 15, 2004. This is a forum that is being followed worldwide and it is rather disgraceful that you have chosen to vomit your frustration on this website. I am not a man that hides his identity. If you like, pm me and I will tell you my full name, address, and what I do for a living. You could then check all kinds of scientific databases and see where you find my name.

I am not here to join issues with you. However, you will do yourself a world of good if you could simply desist from spreading false allegations on this forum. If you have an axe to grind with the owners of ASUM, go and talk to them. If you cannot settle your issues with them, take them to court. It is totally unethical for an aspiring "Pathologist" like you to make this place a battleground, it could well turn to a morgue!

I hope this ends my encounter with you on this thread.

Thank you.

sukhtinder
01-31-2006, 12:03 AM
incredible!

Cardinal
01-31-2006, 12:19 AM
This is better than a good Jerry Springer episode.

MDXRS22
01-31-2006, 08:32 AM
That's good stuff and beyond jerry

gazpacho
01-31-2006, 01:36 PM
All Saints seems like such a scam to me. I've looked through this Alberto guy's posts -- he posted saying he was an aspiring medical student, went to the ASUM Toronto campus and checked it out and said it was okay. Then, a few posts later, he stated that he was a licensed professional, etc. etc. with some sort of interest in ASUM, and the psychology behind people who choose the Caribbean for medical school. Then, he acts as the school's apologist... stating that IMED approval wouldn't happen 2 days after application (of course) and to trust the school, based on "what he's observed". It seems quite evident that whoever this guy is, he has a huge stake in the reputation of All Saints. Why do something so shady, circuitous, and disingenuous?

I checked out the All Saints website, where they have a moderated forum... many people asking questions, with various "students" answering. One student stated he was in clinicals already with a few other All Saints students. When asked how he would already be in clinicals, given that the school started in 2004, he stated that he was a transfer student, transferring to the "pre-board" 5th semester. That's all fine and good, but what's the likelihood of several All Saints transfer students all in rotations right now? There's no mention of specific hospitals or sites or affiliations on the All Saints website -- it seems like a degree factory for worthless degrees. Recall the saying about things that seem too good to be true...

Why my interest? When I went to Toronto, I saw television ads (on minor stations, mind you) for this med school, and it promised quite a lot. I don't want to see anyone get hurt, but it seems that many people will. The proof is in the pudding, let's see what happens. Right now though, there are simply no hard facts in favor of this school.

I'm lucky enough that I won't be a FMG but I do have family members that will be, so I do my best to scour the internet for information relevant to their cases.

maximillian genossa
01-31-2006, 01:56 PM
...Juicy, very juicy indeed.




All Saints seems like such a scam to me. I've looked through this Alberto guy's posts -- he posted saying he was an aspiring medical student, went to the ASUM Toronto campus and checked it out and said it was okay. Then, a few posts later, he stated that he was a licensed professional, etc. etc. with some sort of interest in ASUM, and the psychology behind people who choose the Caribbean for medical school. Then, he acts as the school's apologist... stating that IMED approval wouldn't happen 2 days after application (of course) and to trust the school, based on "what he's observed". It seems quite evident that whoever this guy is, he has a huge stake in the reputation of All Saints. Why do something so shady, circuitous, and disingenuous?

I checked out the All Saints website, where they have a moderated forum... many people asking questions, with various "students" answering. One student stated he was in clinicals already with a few other All Saints students. When asked how he would already be in clinicals, given that the school started in 2004, he stated that he was a transfer student, transferring to the "pre-board" 5th semester. That's all fine and good, but what's the likelihood of several All Saints transfer students all in rotations right now? There's no mention of specific hospitals or sites or affiliations on the All Saints website -- it seems like a degree factory for worthless degrees. Recall the saying about things that seem too good to be true...

Why my interest? When I went to Toronto, I saw television ads (on minor stations, mind you) for this med school, and it promised quite a lot. I don't want to see anyone get hurt, but it seems that many people will. The proof is in the pudding, let's see what happens. Right now though, there are simply no hard facts in favor of this school.

I'm lucky enough that I won't be a FMG but I do have family members that will be, so I do my best to scour the internet for information relevant to their cases.

DrAlberto
01-31-2006, 04:36 PM
Good job, at least you took time to see my previous posts on how this DrAlberto character evolved on this forum from his first post! I first came in as someone who is looking to go to medical school in the Caribbean, representing a wide majority of people visiting this forum. I may not have enough time on my hands to write on numberless virtual discussion fora like Dr.A.R. However, I am a strong advocate of an effective use of the media, and the Internet is emerging as the most powerful infomedium in history. The only snag of this virtual medium is that it could easily be a tool for misinformation, missing the essential gatekeeping procedure found in the traditional media.

Having said that, I am very sure a great number of people on this forum would be scared if they knew how many people read what they write here. They would even be more surprised if they knew how many lives are being affected by the information people receive through valueMD. Everything I have written on this forum is true except, of course, my coming in through my first posting posing as someone interested in studying Medicine in the Caribbean. But I have seen many people right here in Western Canada (I live in a city with a little less than a million inhabitants) and work in the medical school of a university with a population of over 25000. You would be surprised I have spoken with at least 20 undergraduates who sleep and wake on this board. They use this forum as their major information source for alternatives to the highly restrictive medical education system in North America. We owe them a duty to say nothing but the truth here. To use the forum as a source of misinformation is edging rather closely to an unpardonable sin.

Now to clarify my purported “huge stake” in ASUM; I have no financial association whatsoever with this school. I was appointed a visiting professor to the university but have not found enough time to play such role. However, I have said it before and say it again now, I have known one of the directors of the school for over a decade. I know him as an exceptionally intelligent man whose integrity and acute sense of justice would make it impossible for him to be part of any scam. He has a dream about ASUM and he has committed his whole life to that vision of excellence. This is something more than a business to make some fast bucks. I discuss with him regularly about happenings in ASUM and offer my friendly critique of whatever they do. I saw Dr. A.R.’s postings and questioned them about all those allegations, which were all denied. To my annoyance, I was surprised to find out that this man, who keeps chameleoning around this forum and other Internet sites, is simply a frustrated and confused Canadian kid who thinks the freedom of virtual space is a license to conduct a smear campaign and propagate falsehood. He has conducted his campaigns against both individuals and governments. He is surely under close surveillance by security agencies in both Canada and the USA. There is no way people who spit out such raw sewage with impunity can hide under the radar, wrongly believing the Internet is truly virtual!

Now, to think such a person could one day become a licensed physician sickens me to my stomach and makes me to sometimes reconsider my choice of profession. I am just hoping what is happening here is simply a case of a young man looking for an outlet to carry out a harmless mischief when he is bored. If this is truly the case, I would like to remind everyone we are not joking here. The whole world is watching this space!

Of course I may be wrong in my assessment of Dr. A.R., having heard only from his adversaries. My judgment of his person is based primarily on what I have read of him on this forum and other sites. I can only hope the Internet portrays just his second (hidden) personality. I look forward to meeting him in person shortly.

Whatever the case, the best for him at the moment is to simply stop the rot!

OLDPRO
01-31-2006, 05:36 PM
Why Drag St. James into this? The school has had rough enough times with ruthless recuiting from another school. The school is legit and backed by the government here. There are way more than 7 in residency, you can find at least 3-4 just by doing a web search. Also I thought the school opened in 2001 so thats only 5 years or less now? (BTW no one can get a lic in the NA for now unless they attend med school in the Netherlands, this includes AUC!)

Skipper
01-31-2006, 06:31 PM
Why Drag St. James into this? The school has had rough enough times with ruthless recuiting from another school. The school is legit and backed by the government here. There are way more than 7 in residency, you can find at least 3-4 just by doing a web search. Also I thought the school opened in 2001 so thats only 5 years or less now? (BTW no one can get a lic in the NA for now unless they attend med school in the Netherlands, this includes AUC!)

not true, there is a guy in my class who is from st. maarten, and he told me that he can work in st. maarten as long as he works under a doctor in st. maarten for a year before opening his office

we also have a child of a st maarten goverment offical at school here and who plans on working in st maarten---

skipper

microphage
01-31-2006, 06:50 PM
not true, there is a guy in my class who is from st. maarten, and he told me that he can work in st. maarten as long as he works under a doctor in st. maarten for a year before opening his office

we also have a child of a st maarten goverment offical at school here and who plans on working in st maarten---

skipper

We also have one in my class... she's the one almost sleeping in class

OLDPRO
01-31-2006, 06:51 PM
not true, there is a guy in my class who is from st. maarten, and he told me that he can work in st. maarten as long as he works under a doctor in st. maarten for a year before opening his office

we also have a child of a st maarten goverment offical at school here and who plans on working in st maarten---

skipper

Uh which St. Maarten? Saint or Sint? One is Dutch and one is French. AUC is in the Dutch NA. It's the same rules for all the NA. Ask AZ he posted on this earlier.

Skipper
01-31-2006, 06:54 PM
st. maarten is the dutch side (st. martin is the french side) and i know this information from people who are from here and plan on staying here---the local goverment is also paying for their education at the school, so why would the goverment pay for their education if the education isnt recognized on the island

what applies for st. james isnt the same for AUC



skipper

microphage
01-31-2006, 06:55 PM
Uh which St. Maarten? Saint or Sint? One is Dutch and one is French. AUC is in the Dutch NA. It's the same rules for all the NA. Ask AZ he posted on this earlier.

dude.. ur asking someone from AUC.

St. Maarten is Dutch
St. Martin is French

get ur N.A. straight dude. :twisted:

microphage
01-31-2006, 06:56 PM
st. maarten is the dutch side (st. martin is the french side) and i know this information from people who are from here and plan on staying here---

skipper

darn.. u beat me by a min...

OLDPRO
02-01-2006, 05:53 AM
st. maarten is the dutch side (st. martin is the french side) and i know this information from people who are from here and plan on staying here---the local goverment is also paying for their education at the school, so why would the goverment pay for their education if the education isnt recognized on the island

what applies for st. james isnt the same for AUC



skipper
Not per Holland sorry, they do not recongise any school in the Carib. Better check with Holland for yourself (Ask AZ he has). BTW we have a couple government kids at St. James too. The local governments have some independence from Netherlands.

Skipper
02-01-2006, 06:17 AM
dude---look at what i wrote!!

they are able to work in st. maarten! medical licensing in st. maarten is controlled by st. maarten goverment!

i never stated that they can work in holland! i said they can stay and work in st. maarten!

did you even read what i wrote?

skipper

Scott1981
02-01-2006, 08:07 AM
i dont know much about bonaire, but sxm voted to be separate within the dutch kingdom. the whole system is changing for sxm.

azskeptic
02-01-2006, 10:37 AM
for example Texas law

http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/rules/codes/chapter155.php#155004 (http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/rules/codes/chapter155.php#155004)

§155.004.Additional Eligibility Requirements for Graduates of Certain Foreign Medical Schools

A license applicant who is a graduate of a medical school that is located outside the United States and Canada must present proof satisfactory to the board that the applicant:

(1) is a graduate of a school whose curriculum meets the requirements for an unapproved medical school as determined by a committee of experts selected by the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board;

(2) has successfully completed at least three years of graduate medical training in the United States or Canada that was approved by the board;

(3) is eligible for a license to practice medicine in the country in which the school is located, except for any citizenship requirements;

(4) holds a valid certificate issued by the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates; and

(5) is able to communicate in English.

OLDPRO
02-01-2006, 02:22 PM
dude---look at what i wrote!!

they are able to work in st. maarten! medical licensing in st. maarten is controlled by st. maarten goverment!

i never stated that they can work in holland! i said they can stay and work in st. maarten!

did you even read what i wrote?

skipper Yep and please explain, is St. Maarten an independent country like Aruba? Is it still part of the NA government? Each Island in the NA has it's own Island government but it's like a state in the US.
The Netherlands still has rule over much of the big stuff like medical lic..
Did you get the answer from the Lic board or DUDE is this just what someone said?

Sorry to stress you out but I'm tired not getting straight answers, I know St. James is a lower tier but it's not that bad, it's in country of charter and has a good loan now. There are some improvements happening also. (I decline to state them until they have been completed).

Scott1981
02-01-2006, 03:37 PM
i called the st maarten min of health a while back and they refered me to the govt administration office. after going back and forth (while on the island of course), they ultimately said that we were good to go providing you are a citizen or have proper documentation.

however, i believe AZ spoke to someone in holland and they gave some resistance.

i then called the office again and explained this and the lady on the phone got a real attitude over telling me that the govt of holland no longer controls this because SXM voted for independence within the dutch kingdom and their status is changing through constitutional reallignments............. whatever the heck that means......:confused:

Skipper
02-01-2006, 04:18 PM
Yep and please explain, is St. Maarten an independent country like Aruba? Is it still part of the NA government? Each Island in the NA has it's own Island government but it's like a state in the US.
The Netherlands still has rule over much of the big stuff like medical lic..
Did you get the answer from the Lic board or DUDE is this just what someone said?

Sorry to stress you out but I'm tired not getting straight answers, I know St. James is a lower tier but it's not that bad, it's in country of charter and has a good loan now. There are some improvements happening also. (I decline to state them until they have been completed).

looking i have no clue for st. james, i do know for sure that a person who attends AUC that is from st.maarten can practice in st. maarten (now you can argue with me for days about st. james, but st. james is not auc)---additionally st. maarten has a different standing with holland then bonire, so you cannot compare the two---now do you guys have any local students attending that plan on practicing in bonire?

like i said, we have two students right now who are from st. maarten and who plan on living in st. maarten and working here who have gone and checked with the goverment and have gotten education scholarships from the goverment to attend AUC

one student is the child of a goverment offical---

thanks, i am done with responding to your circle logic

skipper

azskeptic
02-01-2006, 09:17 PM
looking i have no clue for st. james, i do know for sure that a person who attends AUC that is from st.maarten can practice in st. maarten (now you can argue with me for days about st. james, but st. james is not auc)---additionally st. maarten has a different standing with holland then bonire, so you cannot compare the two---now do you guys have any local students attending that plan on practicing in bonire?

like i said, we have two students right now who are from st. maarten and who plan on living in st. maarten and working here who have gone and checked with the goverment and have gotten education scholarships from the goverment to attend AUC

one student is the child of a goverment offical---

thanks, i am done with responding to your circle logic

skipper Skipper's grads can practice locksmithing in all 50 states in the US and in UK without the Plab

FreeSpirit
02-01-2006, 10:48 PM
What are the requirements to practice on st.maarten? Must you do a residency in the US or does st.maarten have their own residency programs?

Skipper
02-01-2006, 10:51 PM
do your residency in the US or England i believe and you have to be an offical resident from st. maarten and you ahve to work a year under some doctor on the island before opening your own office

skipper

Scott1981
02-02-2006, 07:06 AM
all work papers must be in order (which takes quite a while as well).

OLDPRO
02-02-2006, 07:42 AM
looking i have no clue for st. james, i do know for sure that a person who attends AUC that is from st.maarten can practice in st. maarten (now you can argue with me for days about st. james, but st. james is not auc)---additionally st. maarten has a different standing with holland then bonire, so you cannot compare the two---now do you guys have any local students attending that plan on practicing in bonire?

like i said, we have two students right now who are from st. maarten and who plan on living in st. maarten and working here who have gone and checked with the goverment and have gotten education scholarships from the goverment to attend AUC

one student is the child of a goverment offical---

thanks, i am done with responding to your circle logic

skipper
You know I find this insulting, AZ told me that there was major problems with practicin in the NA and you have a major problem asking a legit question. I have gotten several answers from government officials on Bonaire, I admitted that St. James is a lower tier.

Direct questions deserve direct answers. Not everything is a joke Skipper.

Yea just wanted to understand I'm done with your circle too.







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