PDA

View Full Version : SABA or DO?



palipride
10-01-2013, 09:37 AM
So my general stats are:

I'm applying from Canada

OMSAS cGPA: 3.49 (higher in AMCAS)
MCAT: mark still not released

No C's in any science courses

Plenty of research and Ec's along with a publication


Should I apply to DO school (Doctor of osteopathic medicine) or to SABA? I want to have higher chances of landing Internal medicine residency (states or canada)


:confused:

Bio hazzard
10-01-2013, 09:55 AM
DO IMO; even though you are canadian.

Summer2013
10-01-2013, 11:48 AM
To be honest, I am keeping both these options open for my daughter next year. She is senior in the college now and planning on taking MCAT in January 2014.

devildoc8404
10-01-2013, 11:57 AM
With the US match environment going forward as suggested by the ACGME and AAMC, I would say DO hands-down.

LDKPCOFGS
10-01-2013, 12:37 PM
DO schools don't have the same rigorous curriculum as foreign MD schools and quite the many have do not have the same residency placement foreign medical schools. A lot of DO schools do worse than some foreign medical schools. You can also consider schools out in Ireland through the Atlantic bridge program. There about as many Canadians in the antlantic bridge program as there are in SABA (rough estimate) and their residency placement are about the same. I think with the ireland schools you don't have to deal with being weeded out like at SABA. Schools that weed out students have high fail and drop out rates. Quite the many people from the irish schools land residency directly in Canada while only a certain sum of people from SABA land a residency in canada.

LDKPCOFGS
10-01-2013, 12:53 PM
As for this 30% increase American medical school enrollment and issue with residency placement. It seems that far too many people are over worried. Yes Ameican class sizes are increasing; however, so are the number of residency spots. Over the next 5 years an expected 3,000-5,000 federally funded residency spots will open up.

AAMC releases it’s report in May 2013 to increase class sizes. – about 50% of the increase taking place in the south where very few Foreign medical school graduates end up landing a residency.

Federal government announces in March 2013 to increase 3-5k residency spots over the next 5 years.
***Thus, the AAMC report shows an expected increase of 4,000 new medical students while the federal government expects to increase residency spots by 3,000-5,000 spots. (Keep in mind schools such SGU to SABA receive federal funding and the federal government cannot give out these loans if they are aware that all of the sudden foreign medical graduates receiving these loans will be unable to obtain residency spots. This is because the federal government can be held liable for giving out fafsa to foreign medical graduates if such a problem exists. )

LDKPCOFGS
10-01-2013, 01:21 PM
As for this 30% increase American medical school enrollment and issue with residency placement.

It seems that far too many people are over worried. Yes American class sizes are increasing; however, so are the number of residency spots. Over the next 5 years an expected 3,000-4,000 federally funded residency spots will open up.
Good things to consider to ease the stress of this announcement:
***AAMC releases it’s report in May 2013 to increase class sizes (only after the Federal government announced to increase residency spots).
– about 50% of the increase taking place in the south where very few Foreign medical school graduates end up landing a residency.
- This “30% increase” is being miss preceived in nominal terms. According to AAMC this 30% increase “represents a 30 percent increase above first-year enrollment in 2002-03, the baseline year used to calculate the enrollment increases.” In other words there is an expected to be a 30% increase in the number of medical students accepted by 2017 when compared to the number of medical students accepted in 2002 and NOT 2012. Thus, some of this 30% increase has already taken place and there really only be a 10% over the next couple of years.

Federal government announces in March 2013 to increase 3-5k residency spots over the next 5 years.
***Thus, the AAMC report shows an expected increase of 4,000 new medical students from the number of medical students in 2002, not 2012. While the federal government expects to increase residency spots by 3,000-5,000 spots. (Keep in mind schools such SGU to SABA receive federal funding and the federal government cannot give out these loans if they are aware that all of the sudden foreign medical graduates receiving these loans will be unable to obtain residency spots. This is because the federal government can be held liable for giving out fafsa to foreign medical graduates if such a problem exists. )
- Feel free to correct me on any of my stats.
Source:
- Residency increase: management.fortune.cnn.com/2013/04/01/medical-students-residencies/
- Medical class sizes increase: aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/335244/050213.html

devildoc8404
10-01-2013, 01:31 PM
DO schools don't have the same rigorous curriculum as foreign MD schools and quite the many have do not have the same residency placement foreign medical schools. A lot of DO schools do worse than some foreign medical schools.

?!?!
That is utter nonsense. First of all, you are obviously not considering the DO Match in calculating match placement rates. DO schools match at a lower rate in the MD Match because many of their students match into DO residencies. Secondly, unless you attended both DO and foreign medical schools (um... I actually did), you are in no position to make any sort of comparison. My former DO classmates are working in neurosurgery, ENT, general surgery, and just about every possible specialty. They are doing juuuuust fine.


You can also consider schools out in Ireland through the Atlantic bridge program. There about as many Canadians in the antlantic bridge program as there are in SABA (rough estimate) and their residency placement are about the same. I think with the ireland schools you don't have to deal with being weeded out like at SABA. Schools that weed out students have high fail and drop out rates. Quite the many people from the irish schools land residency directly in Canada while only a certain sum of people from SABA land a residency in canada.

The Irish schools are a great option, and if I had to choose between the Carib and Ireland I would choose the latter in a heartbeat. But that is just me. Heading back to Canada from a Commonwealth country is easier than from most other foreign locales, but that is nothing new.

devildoc8404
10-01-2013, 01:35 PM
As for this 30% increase American medical school enrollment and issue with residency placement.

It seems that far too many people are over worried. Yes American class sizes are increasing; however, so are the number of residency spots. Over the next 5 years an expected 3,000-4,000 federally funded residency spots will open up.
Good things to consider to ease the stress of this announcement:
***AAMC releases it’s report in May 2013 to increase class sizes (only after the Federal government announced to increase residency spots).
– about 50% of the increase taking place in the south where very few Foreign medical school graduates end up landing a residency.
- This “30% increase” is being miss preceived in nominal terms. According to AAMC this 30% increase “represents a 30 percent increase above first-year enrollment in 2002-03, the baseline year used to calculate the enrollment increases.” In other words there is an expected to be a 30% increase in the number of medical students accepted by 2017 when compared to the number of medical students accepted in 2002 and NOT 2012. Thus, some of this 30% increase has already taken place and there really only be a 10% over the next couple of years.

Federal government announces in March 2013 to increase 3-5k residency spots over the next 5 years.
***Thus, the AAMC report shows an expected increase of 4,000 new medical students from the number of medical students in 2002, not 2012. While the federal government expects to increase residency spots by 3,000-5,000 spots. (Keep in mind schools such SGU to SABA receive federal funding and the federal government cannot give out these loans if they are aware that all of the sudden foreign medical graduates receiving these loans will be unable to obtain residency spots. This is because the federal government can be held liable for giving out fafsa to foreign medical graduates if such a problem exists. )
- Feel free to correct me on any of my stats.
Source:
- Residency increase: management.fortune.cnn.com/2013/04/01/medical-students-residencies/
- Medical class sizes increase: aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/335244/050213.html

So, the published statement of the AAMC and ACGME regarding their goal of a 1:1 ratio of US medical graduates to US internship positions by 2016 is... what? Unworthy of consideration? Hogwash? A big fat fib?

Again, I have no dog in this fight, as I am training and working elsewhere... but it is pretty convenient to ignore the stated goals of the organizations in charge of this sort of thing. I think that 2016 is pretty ambitious, especially with the increases in residency positions, but the closer they get to it, the worse it will be for foreign grads of all stripes. How could it be otherwise?

LDKPCOFGS
10-01-2013, 01:40 PM
?!?!
That is utter nonsense. First of all, you are obviously not considering the DO Match in calculating match placement rates. DO schools match at a lower rate in the MD Match because many of their students match into DO residencies. Secondly, unless you attended both DO and foreign medical schools (um... I actually did), you are in no position to make any sort of comparison. My former DO classmates are working in neurosurgery, ENT, general surgery, and just about every possible specialty. They are doing juuuuust fine.



The Irish schools are a great option, and if I had to choose between the Carib and Ireland I would choose the latter in a heartbeat. But that is just me. Heading back to Canada from a Commonwealth country is easier than from most other foreign locales, but that is nothing new.

If you say so. It's not like DO students can't match in nice residency spots just like foreign medical students. One can see why you would suggest a DO program when you are in a DO school.

I didn't calculate those numbers. The according to reports "Twenty-five percent of those graduating with a DO (Doctor of Osteopathy) didn't match." People might have post-matched or scrambled. Here's the source: centralny.ynn.com/content/news/652933/legislation-introduces-to-increase-physician-residency-programs/

devildoc8404
10-01-2013, 01:54 PM
Um, no. I am not in DO school, I am an MD. I started medical school in a DO school, and therefore have a goodly number of DO friends back in the States.

You seem to be missing that DO students can match in nice residency spots through the DO Match... which is not open to MD students no matter where they graduate. That is precisely one of the reasons that DO school makes more sense if one is gunning for a high-speed residency but cannot get into a US-MD school.

That (non-medical) source tosses around incomplete numbers... 25% of DO grads do not match in the MD Match, yeah, but that ignores the DO Match numbers. Most of the DO schools have more than half of their graduates not even entering the MD Match because they were already successful in the DO Match... not to mention scrambling, military Match, etc.

LDKPCOFGS
10-01-2013, 01:58 PM
So, the published statement of the AAMC and ACGME regarding their goal of a 1:1 ratio of US medical graduates to US internship positions by 2016 is... what? Unworthy of consideration? Hogwash? A big fat fib?

Again, I have no dog in this fight, as I am training and working elsewhere... but it is pretty convenient to ignore the stated goals of the organizations in charge of this sort of thing. I think that 2016 is pretty ambitious, especially with the increases in residency positions, but the closer they get to it, the worse it will be for foreign grads of all stripes. How could it be otherwise?

Please read the articles and do not simply mislead your self by only reading the title of an article. the title of an article is there simple to get your attention and get you to read the article. title does not summarize the article. what do you mean you "have no dog fight in this" is there some kind of fight going on? American agencies are not conspiring to harm american citizens who go to foreign medical where they are able to receive fafsa. That is simply an outlandish idea and any agency attempting to do so will face some intense lawsuits.

I am happy that you were able to go from a foreign medical school to an american DO school. However, that does not mean that people looking need to be scared about going to a foreign medical school. Also, just because you attended both a foreign medical school and an american DO school doesn't automatically make you qualified to say anything. You are not an expert on the matter. You trying to say you know what you are saying about the match rates simply because you have been to both foreign medical school and DO school is like someone saying they know math simply because they took a calculus class when there is a lot more to math than just a calculus class. And good for those who go a DO school and are unable to find an MD residency but are able to get a DO residency. That helps no one who is considering a foreign medical school cuz they want an MD residency. In regards to this topic you speak of (DO not landing an MD residency) many many many foreign medical schools do not even have anything close to a non-match rate of 25% like those of DO schools. Again those articles indicate that the number of new residency spots will compensate for the increase in american class sizes.

devildoc8404
10-02-2013, 05:40 AM
Once again, you have it backwards. I stated quite clearly that I am an MD. Again, I started at a US DO school, and graduated from a foreign MD school (EU, not Carib). You are telling me to read the articles, but frankly do not seem to be doing a very good job of reading the posts that you are so quick to dismiss.

Look, I actually read the articles. In that vein, please take a moment to read the related articles, which (coming from JAMA and AMA), are probably of significantly more worth in this situation than something from the vaunted Central New York News.

Traverso G, & McMahon GT (2012). Residency training and international medical graduates: coming to America no more. JAMA : The Journal of the American Medical Association, 308 (21), 2193-4 PMID: 23212494

AMA-IMG Section Governing Council. International Medical Graduates in American Medicine: Contemporary Challenges and Opportunities. 2010. http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/img/img-workforce-paper.pdf.

(By the way, you still have not addressed my question as to why you are ignoring the expressly stated goals of the ACGME and AAMC in formulating your hypothesis.)

I do apologize that you are not familiar with the expression "I do not have a dog in this fight." I will respectfully urge you to look that up before assuming that I am actually referring to fights, dogs, or... dogfighting. Has Mike Vick taught us nothing?

Further, I am sorry, but your statements hold no water because you are arguing points that were never made.

First... when did I ever refer to myself as an expert? I have an opinion, and I can defend it, but I do not consider myself an expert. Regardless, my academic background does lend certain insights into the matter of DO/FMG that most students do not have. You may feel free to dismiss the information if you like, but comparing my medical school journey to someone who has taken a single calculus class is nonsensical.

Secondly, I did not mention the DO Match to show that it is great for FMGs, I mentioned it specifically because you said that DOs have a terrible match rate. They do not, and the article you linked to makes no distinction between MD and DO Matches when calculating the match rates. That is a common error, and many medical students make it, so it is not surprising that a reporter does not likely know the difference. If you want to base your medical education and match decisions on data from a reporter from the Central New York News, more power to you. I would find that is a bit silly.

Thirdly, the DO Match takes place in FEBRUARY. DO students cannot enter the MD Match first, and then use the DO Match as an immediate backup, as you suggest. If they enter the DO Match and are successful, which most are, then they are contractually obligated to accept the DO residency and withdraw from the MD Match.

You need to do more research, and from more reliable sources, before you start shouting that 25% unmatched DOs number from the rooftops. You might try the AACOM, for example, as a more reliable resource to fact-check the good folks at Central New York News, etc. Feel free to check out this link ( Graduates (http://www.aacom.org/data/graduates/Pages/default.aspx) ) and see AACOM´s handy Excel document outlining the percentages of graduates completing GME in-state vs. out-of-state. Add the two percentages together and you get the following results:

The two lowest-performing DO schools in 2011 (most recent data available) were Chicago COM at 92% and Nova Southeastern COM at 91%. There were nine schools with 100% of their graduating classes in GME: KC COM, Lake Erie COM, Lincoln Memorial COM, Ohio U COM, Pacific NW COM, Rocky Valley COM, Touro COM (CA), COMP, Pikeville COM. Admittedly, this does not specify how many of these students went through a scramble process, but it does show a significantly better performance than what you are spouting. Feel free to find a single Carib school with those numbers of graduates in GME -- even among the Big 4/(5), it simply does not happen.

Look, I do not think that DO is the end-all-be-all. Hell, I am an MD myself. However, for people who are not hung up on the initials, and who want their best chance at matching and working as a physician in the US, it is foolish to dismiss DO schools (or to suggest, as you have, that they are somehow a substandard path fraught with peril) when it comes to the Match. The numbers simply do not bear that out.

The ball is in your court. (By which I am referring neither to balls not sporting arenas.)

Tricuspid
10-02-2013, 07:15 AM
Yeah sorry just need to point out that Ireland is not part of the Commonwealth. They left when they became the Republic of Ireland.







Copyright © 2003-2018 ValueMD, LLC. All rights reserved.