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RohannVR
09-10-2013, 10:51 AM
Perhaps my questions were too many and broad in my other post.

Regarding "Migration" - as far as I know if you're a Finnish/EU trained physiotherapist (think about doing the program in Finland), you're allowed to "migrate" in the EU, meaning your credentials will be accepted. Is this the same for doctors? Is it more a matter of actually being allowed to live in the country vs. being able to work there? I hear Sweden and the like are accepting foreign trained docs as long as residency was done in the EU.

devildoc8404
09-11-2013, 03:45 PM
That varies wildly depending on the country, the language(s) you speak, and your own citizenship(s).

Even if you have EU credentials and speak the target language fluently, it does you absolutely no good if you cannot get a visa or working permit in a country. There are plenty of EU countries that will not allow a non-EU person to work there, even if they have an EU diploma and speak their language very well. (See the UK for a conspicuous example.)

Other countries are rather more open (such as Germany, currently) as long as you have acceptable credentials, speak the language well, and are not viewed with suspicion by the immigration authorities.

The fallacy of "I am getting an EU diploma and then I will be able to work ANYPLACE on the EU" comes up on VMD with some frequency, but it is absolute nonsense. EU countries still make their own rules, and if you are not an EU citizen or cannot speak the language (or are from the wrong EU country) they are under no obligation to accept you.

RohannVR
09-11-2013, 04:40 PM
Thanks for the reply.

That makes sense - I was specifically thinking Scandinavia and the like (Northern Europe essentially). My understanding is that Sweden, etc will take foreign trained docs as long as residency is done within the EU?

My original questions was more to do with "I'm medically qualified within the EU" as opposed to "can I move to any country". Is it true then that while the country may not specifically let you immigrate, you're technically "qualified" to work there, as in you don't have to write entrance exams and your credentials are accepted?

devildoc8404
09-11-2013, 05:10 PM
Based on what I heard from recruiters, Sweden will often accept foreigners with EU specialization, yeah. That is not a guarantee, but there is precedent.

You can be "qualified" with the GMC all you want, but if you cannot legally be hired to work there then what the hell good does it do you? And FWIW, I do not think that non-UK citizens are freed from taking the PLAB, anyway. That would be worth checking with GMC, iff you have some back-door route to being able to work there. Countries absolutely can still require an exam. In fact, Germany has been tossing around the idea of implementing such tests in some Bundeslšnder.

RohannVR
09-11-2013, 05:18 PM
Good to know. Nothing is guaranteed regarding entrance to this field so that's assumed.

Good to know too about the PLAB, I'll look into that. I don't care for working in the UK honestly. As a Canadian citizen I'd likely look at coming back here or possibly working in Scandinavia depending on their immigration policies.
That makes sense regarding exams - I suppose the essence of what I'm getting at is that the qualification itself is accepted throughout the EU, no? It's one thing to not be allowed to immigrate to a country, but it's another thing to be allowed to immigrate but your credentials not being accepted, if that makes sense.


Thanks for the help.

devildoc8404
09-12-2013, 03:03 PM
Going back to Canada is actually one of the least likely scenarios. Take a look at the numbers and FMG match rates in Canada, even for Canadian citizens graduating overseas... they are abysmal and make the US match rate for FMGs look glowing by comparison!

Make sure that you understand all of the ramifications of studying medicine overseas before you make that leap. They are significant.

RohannVR
09-12-2013, 03:34 PM
Thanks. Where can one get access to the stats? I believe you, I'd just like to see it.

I don't really get it to be honest. I keep hearing about a shortage of doctors yet every single aspect of the process seems to indicate they have too many.

Is it easier for foreign docs (well trained, I.e. UK, South Africa, Northern EU) to get a residency position in, say, Psychiatry vs Cardiology?

devildoc8404
09-12-2013, 03:53 PM
I do not have the link any more, but I am sure that the data is readily available through the CARMS website. I did the math a year or two ago and it was an unbelievably low percentage.

In general, Primary Care (FM, IM, PED) and Psychiatry are usually considered less competitive... but in Canada, EVERYTHING is competitive. In the US, it looks to be heading that direction, as well, especially post-2016 if the AAMC and ACGME are accurate in their predictions and efforts.

Tipton
09-12-2013, 04:02 PM
Thanks. Where can one get access to the stats? I believe you, I'd just like to see it.

I don't really get it to be honest. I keep hearing about a shortage of doctors yet every single aspect of the process seems to indicate they have too many.

Is it easier for foreign docs (well trained, I.e. UK, South Africa, Northern EU) to get a residency position in, say, Psychiatry vs Cardiology?

Here you go. (https://www.carms.ca/eng/operations_R1reports_13_e.shtml)

RohannVR
09-12-2013, 07:26 PM
Thank you, I appreciate the help.

Those stats aren't exactly favourable. If I'm reading correctly, 425 total psych applicants, 32 of which chose only psychiatry. 99 applicants had psychiatry as a first choice, and 26 total psych applicants were accepted? Seems like your chances are better applying specifically to psych than using psych as a plan b.

A few other questions stemming from here:
-I'd honestly like an opportunity to consider travelling or living abroad which is part of the reason I thought of studying overseas. Would being a CMG be more helpful in trying to apply overseas as opposed to the opposite? I.e. Say I wanted to live in Sweden and immigration had no issues with me moving there - would it be easier to get into Scandinavia with a Canadian education than vice-versa, or is wanting to travel as a doctor (specifically a psychiatrist, not much interest in being a GP) a poor career choice to do so?

-If you're already a fully qualified psychiatrist or specialist, is it easier to get in after having done a full residency in another country or would this not help chances, i.e. would you be in the same boat and have to re-do residency or at least the two-year program anyway? (I live on Vancouver Island and the majority of the docs I know here are South African, especially family docs. 3 docs on the island from SA with my last name.)

-Lastly, via the "jurisdiction" route, would it be easier (not easy per se) to get into Canada with a "recognized/affiliated jurisdiction" education, i.e. New Zealand, as opposed to say Estonia (a program I'm considering)?


Thanks for the help, it's invaluable.







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