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RohannVR
09-07-2013, 11:28 AM
Hi all,

I have a few questions regarding international med schools.

I'm currently a 23 year old 3rd year arts Psychology student with a relatively poor GPA (3.3) living in west coast BC. I've been going through a roller coaster of career options the last few years, from applying to the police, to wanting to be a strength and conditioning coach (which I currently am), to wanting to do physio, and now deciding I don't want to "half-***" life, so am wanting to go all the way.

Hoping to become a psychiatrist - clinical PhD psych schools are hard to get into and jobs aren't abundant, so I figure becoming a psychiatrist with a private practice will likely be the best of both worlds (counselling/behavioural science + being able to prescribe meds and have a broader spectrum of available work).

I wish now I had put more effort into school at the beginning, but until recently I didn't think I'd be needing grades to further myself (as well as a plethora of appropriately distracting family health issues).

I have little desire to want to compete with 94% average students, so I was looking at some prospective out of country schools like Ireland, but I keep reading about an IMG not being favourable in Canada and it being a big risk, not to mention colossally expensive.


My original plan was to do a BSc physio in Finland (it does transfer to Canada as far as I can tell), but I feel now that I'd like an MD so that I can decide more surely later on if I want to end up in Psychiatry. So in my current situation:
-Would it be worthwhile to apply to somewhere like Ireland? If it's difficult to get a residency in Canada, would it be easier to do so in a place like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Europe in general? My wife and I have wanted to travel/live there for quite a long time. If so, would it be possible to then get back into Canada either as a psychiatrist or become a psychiatrist? I'm new to this still.
-Would I be better off getting into Canadian med school and doing a residency here? Is it easier to travel/move as a Canadian Dr? If so, would it be wise for me to do the physio program in Finland (since we'd like to move there anyway for a time and school fees are non existent), work hard and get good grades, and then apply for med school here? Would it make me more or less competitive than Canadian biology/chem undergrad students?



As far as life experience goes, I spent 6 years in the army reserve, have done well over a thousand hours of volunteer work, have taken as many neuro courses as available here (neuroanatomy, biopsych, brain disorders, cognitive neuropsychology, and am looking to take neuropharmacology), have been married for two years (no kids), have worked in native communities up and down BC and the Yukon, and made it to the last step of a few police recruitments (was too young at the time however).


Sorry for the long-winded post but I appreciate your time and advice.


Thank you.

Tricuspid
10-04-2013, 05:20 AM
Hi, I think you should apply to Ireland, but you need to take the MCAT first. You really need to aim for as high a score as possible. A 3.3 GPA is low so a MCAT above 30 will be needed to make you competitive.

Look up the Atlantic Bridge Program. You need to apply to Ireland through this program.

devildoc8404
10-04-2013, 02:25 PM
In general, foreign undergrad does not count as pre-med in North America, so a Finnish degree would be interesting, but a waste of time.

Yes, it is MUCH easier to match in Canada as a Canadian grad from a Canadian medical school. Unfortunately, in the immortal words of Austin Powers, "That train has sailed." Canadian medical school admissions are cut-throat, and a 3.3 is not likely to come close to getting it done. Unless you have a lot of classes left to take, you are not likely to get into a Canadian medical school. (That is not a slam, very few people are! Many of the Canucks attending Carib schools would have had little trouble getting into medical school in the US with their stats.)

The US med schools are probably out of the question, as well, unless you want to consider DO schools. I know some Canadians who went to US-DO schools and did well, but I think they are working in the US now.

Like many Canadians, my Canadian classmate applied to residencies this past year in the US and is in her GME1 year now... as hard as it is, it is easier to match and train in the US and then return to Canada thereafter to practice.

Psych has traditionally been pretty manageable from the FMG-Match standpoint, historically speaking, but the future of FMG matching in the US is facing some sobering changes, as per the AAMC and ACGME. The Canadian side is already brutal for FMGs (check out the numbers) so that is tough route to take. Ireland is a great option for medical education, and as a Commonwealth country it has a better possibility for return to Canada, but there are no guarantees. Studying medicine overseas is a gamble, and you want to pick the place that offers the highest number of most viable practice options.

Good luck to you.

MEA-MD
10-08-2013, 02:24 PM
Hi all,

I have a few questions regarding international med schools.

I'm currently a 23 year old 3rd year arts Psychology student with a relatively poor GPA (3.3) living in west coast BC. I've been going through a roller coaster of career options the last few years, from applying to the police, to wanting to be a strength and conditioning coach (which I currently am), to wanting to do physio, and now deciding I don't want to "half-***" life, so am wanting to go all the way.

Hoping to become a psychiatrist - clinical PhD psych schools are hard to get into and jobs aren't abundant, so I figure becoming a psychiatrist with a private practice will likely be the best of both worlds (counselling/behavioural science + being able to prescribe meds and have a broader spectrum of available work).

I wish now I had put more effort into school at the beginning, but until recently I didn't think I'd be needing grades to further myself (as well as a plethora of appropriately distracting family health issues).

I have little desire to want to compete with 94% average students, so I was looking at some prospective out of country schools like Ireland, but I keep reading about an IMG not being favourable in Canada and it being a big risk, not to mention colossally expensive.


My original plan was to do a BSc physio in Finland (it does transfer to Canada as far as I can tell), but I feel now that I'd like an MD so that I can decide more surely later on if I want to end up in Psychiatry. So in my current situation:
-Would it be worthwhile to apply to somewhere like Ireland? If it's difficult to get a residency in Canada, would it be easier to do so in a place like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Europe in general? My wife and I have wanted to travel/live there for quite a long time. If so, would it be possible to then get back into Canada either as a psychiatrist or become a psychiatrist? I'm new to this still.........................Thank you.

Hi! Your question has some twist to it. You are now studying for your BA in psychology and I’ll assume a four-year study. I can give you advice about MD programs in Europe for four different medical schools with programs in English. Where you could start and with specialization-residency finish you’re studies with a degree of medical psychiatrist. The twist is you are in between of your studies. You will finish BA and take MD program you will need to do 6 years + 4-5 specialization-residency in your field (or residency could be done in Canada) The time specified for residency is connected to the country of medical school program and board certification process. The certification/recognition of medical degree for Canada and US has been eased with incorporation of USMLE and MCCEE tests into curriculum at least in one medical school.

The second part is the option and challenge to transfer into second year of the MD program. You would need to have pre-med courses (the basic one is anatomy to be considered + all other needed by school to transfer into second year directly). In the same time, the school itself needs to allow and regulate this kind an application accordingly. However, all depends on the board of admissions. If they see it as hassle they just don’t apply it and ask that students start with first year.

Now for that informative part. In some European countries psychology can be studied through a school of philosophy-department for psychology. For “clinical psychologist” 3+2 years (ba+masters) + 4 years specialization-residency which is in the rank by degree with MD-psychiatrist.

The difference comes in bit bigger width of responsibility for MD and classification of degree; as one is medical and the other comes as social science degree. This classification has nothing to do with professionalism of the respective professionals, but with school and definition of the last. One is medical school and the other is school of philosophy and it comes under social science. This is the problem some times for certification reasons for those who finish the studies of psychology in some European programs.

I have written some general information for admission to medical school in another post: “Where to apply? HELP” in combination of both I hope it will help and give some perspective for options on the final decision.

devildoc8404
10-09-2013, 03:26 PM
The certification/recognition of medical degree for Canada and US has been eased with incorporation of USMLE and MCCEE tests into curriculum at least in one medical school.

Um, no. No, it hasnīt. In fact, it is about to get a pantload harder. Check into the ACGME and AAMC opinions on the matter, and look at the CARMS numbers. Then tell us how much things have been "eased."


The second part is the option and challenge to transfer into second year of the MD program. You would need to have pre-med courses (the basic one is anatomy to be considered + all other needed by school to transfer into second year directly). In the same time, the school itself needs to allow and regulate this kind an application accordingly. However, all depends on the board of admissions. If they see it as hassle they just don’t apply it and ask that students start with first year.

A foreign medical school? Maybe, and only if the school is at the lower end of the med-ed totem pole. A US/Canadian medical school? Not bloody well happening.


Now for that informative part. In some European countries psychology can be studied through a school of philosophy-department for psychology. For “clinical psychologist” 3+2 years (ba+masters) + 4 years specialization-residency which is in the rank by degree with MD-psychiatrist.

The difference comes in bit bigger width of responsibility for MD and classification of degree; as one is medical and the other comes as social science degree. This classification has nothing to do with professionalism of the respective professionals, but with school and definition of the last. One is medical school and the other is school of philosophy and it comes under social science. This is the problem some times for certification reasons for those who finish the studies of psychology in some European programs.

Psychologists and psychiatrists are not the same. PhD and MD clinicians have dramatically different training pathways and work responsibilities, and to suggest otherwise is simply untrue.

MEA-MD
10-09-2013, 06:02 PM
Um, no. No, it hasnīt. In fact, it is about to get a pantload harder. Check into the ACGME and AAMC opinions on the matter, and look at the CARMS numbers. Then tell us how much things have been "eased."

A foreign medical school? Maybe, and only if the school is at the lower end of the med-ed totem pole. A US/Canadian medical school? Not bloody well happening.

Psychologists and psychiatrists are not the same. PhD and MD clinicians have dramatically different training pathways and work responsibilities, and to suggest otherwise is simply untrue.


Hi!

Um, no. No, it hasnīt. In fact, it is about to get a pantload harder. Check into the ACGME and AAMC opinions on the matter, and look at the CARMS numbers. Then tell us how much things have been "eased."

If you want to study abroad and medical school incorporates USMLE and MCCEE into the curriculum. That doesn’t mean this is done on someone’s whim. And no, it’s not a marketing to get more foreign student. Medical school doctor of medicine program only admits 10 foreign students per year.

“Eased” means that program curriculum was set to be in concurrence with medical laws of the respective countries and allow a future doctor to practice medicine. Laws and regulations are ever changing in every country in the world. So, should we stop learning and educating ourselves because of this?

A foreign medical school? Maybe, and only if the school is at the lower end of the med-ed totem pole. A US/Canadian medical school? Not bloody well happening.

First of all, every medical school deserves some respect. An opinion that only US/Canadian medical school are and the rest is worthless. Is in short, ego. However, in written text it was said that a student from US/Canada who has already done premedical education can in some medical schools in Europe (UK doesn’t count here) when applies for MD be accepted into second year. This is specific to a country and medical school. Now to understand and judge this you need to know that medical schools accept students directly from high school. And for someone who already has done pre-med means for the school transfer knowledge and with it grades of courses already taken. And if a school doesn’t want to bother with it, you are stuck with years of pre-medical education. However, this is better for some than never getting the education they want. In this case medical education.

Psychologists and psychiatrists are not the same. PhD and MD clinicians have dramatically different training pathways and work responsibilities, and to suggest otherwise is simply untrue.

Neither have I implied or written that psychologists and psychiatrists are the same. I did write that both come out form education process (in Europe!) with the same degree – Masters. And in text only explained the years of education plus residency or as is known specialization. To repeat myself MD “psychiatrists” 6 (of education) years + 4-5 specialization-residency ….. “clinical psychologist” 3+2 years (ba+masters) + 4 years specialization-residency.

Equating which came out of it, doesn’t come even close. Psychologists and clinical psychologist are two different things. Simply said BA degree is the same as Masters and the end of it.

Ph.D. which is mentioned is the difference in educational systems. Ph.D. on the already mentioned educational level of a clinical psychologist or MD psychiatrists is a step in the research field. Again, simply said what is allowed in US/Canada by Ph.D. the level of degree in the majority of Europe is certified already at Masters level.

So, I do not appreciate words being taken out of context. And moreover, one sided judgment about any educational systems around the world is not a critic. Due diligence is completely other matter. Not knowing something and still saying that you know best is ignorance. I hope the explanations clears any past misunderstandings.







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