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sim0n
03-18-2013, 10:08 AM
Hello!

I am considered about something important to all of us EU citizens studying abroad in other EU ,mostly,''eastern'' countries..
I started yesterday making some research about the huge difference in fees students are paying for medicine schools around eastern Europe. For example one school is asking 8000e/year while locals pay half.
BUT i think EU legislation mentions about EU citizens paying the same amount. For example: A German citizen should pay the same with a Bulgarian. Both are EU countries.
Anybody can help me providing valid legal info , or other help in this very important matter for all of us???

devildoc8404
03-18-2013, 10:48 AM
As I stated in your other (almost identical) thread, if you wish to take advantage of the lower fees at MU-Sofia (your example), then you need to be admitted to study in the Bulgarian language. Most of those seats are, quite naturally, taken up by... wait for it... Bulgarians. If you can gain admission for study in the Bulgarian curriculum, your fees will be substantially reduced.

If, however, you want to study (in BULGARIA) under the English language curriculum, then you will bloody well pay a higher tuition rate. I do not see anything unfair about that at all, and let`s be honest, the place definitely needs money. The very existence of the parallel curriculum is in place mainly as a money-maker for the university.

If you wish to study for next-to-nothing, then either study in Germany (it is practically free, but they will require you to be an excellent student), or hie thee to Romania. It is still pretty cheap on the north side of the Danube.

Let`s be completely honest, here, shall we? The E-EU medical programs are not usually the first choice of people who can gain admission to medical school in their own countries. If you want to seek out a second chance, then great... I sure did. But donīt try to turn this into some sort of equivalency game. It doesn`t apply.

Riften
03-25-2013, 01:24 AM
[QUOTE=sim0n;1473713
BUT i think EU legislation mentions about EU citizens paying the same amount. For example: A German citizen should pay the same with a Bulgarian. Both are EU countries.
Anybody can help me providing valid legal info , or other help in this very important matter for all of us???[/QUOTE]

If you study in the native language programs, for example, if you study medicine in Bulgarian in Bulgaria, you will pay the same as Bulgarian citizens. If Bulgarian citizens study medicine in English, they have to pay the same as you.

Sure you can learn Bulgarian and write the entrance exam in Bulgarian. Then, you pay the same as Bulgarians.

devildoc8404
03-25-2013, 03:45 AM
If Bulgarian citizens study medicine in English, they have to pay the same as you.

That is absolutely correct, Riften, and I know a number of Bulgarian nationals who have lived away for quite a while and feel more comfortable with their English than their Bulgarian. They elected to study in the English program, so they pay the higher tuition rate despite their Bulgarian/EU passports.

On the flip side of that, I also know a Ugandan guy who came to Bulgaria to study medicine, spent almost two years getting fluent in the language, and was accepted into the Bulgarian language program at a lower Bulgarian tuition rate. If you want cheap tuition in Bulgaria, then by golly, itīs time to learn your А, Б, В, Гīs...

Riften
03-25-2013, 06:35 AM
That is absolutely correct, Riften, and I know a number of Bulgarian nationals who have lived away for quite a while and feel more comfortable with their English than their Bulgarian. They elected to study in the English program, so they pay the higher tuition rate despite their Bulgarian/EU passports.

On the flip side of that, I also know a Ugandan guy who came to Bulgaria to study medicine, spent almost two years getting fluent in the language, and was accepted into the Bulgarian language program at a lower Bulgarian tuition rate. If you want cheap tuition in Bulgaria, then by golly, itīs time to learn your А, Б, В, Гīs...

Devildoc, I need your advice man. I don't know if you will respond if I post on ur wall.

I heard in Europe students don't 1)run clubs like in the states (president, vice president, secretary.. etc) 2)Don't organize community service/volunteering 3)Don't do research projects (it's not flexible to join a lab while in med school and professors are not friendly to run a project) with you

so my thinking you are disadvantage at creating the US style resume.. you know what I am talking about. When you are in the states, yougot many things to do and your resume looks nice. But in Europe I heard you are just studying, studying and studying. No summer internships and other ** like in the states. Ya know about extra curricular stuff that's important in the states.

Riften
03-25-2013, 06:37 AM
That is absolutely correct, Riften, and I know a number of Bulgarian nationals who have lived away for quite a while and feel more comfortable with their English than their Bulgarian. They elected to study in the English program, so they pay the higher tuition rate despite their Bulgarian/EU passports.

On the flip side of that, I also know a Ugandan guy who came to Bulgaria to study medicine, spent almost two years getting fluent in the language, and was accepted into the Bulgarian language program at a lower Bulgarian tuition rate. If you want cheap tuition in Bulgaria, then by golly, itīs time to learn your А, Б, В, Гīs...

Also, I heard Bulgarians who have gotten excellent grades in thier unquipped high schools went the UK to do medicine. And there are thousands of British nationals go to Bulgaria each year.

devildoc8404
03-25-2013, 07:07 AM
Devildoc, I need your advice man. I don't know if you will respond if I post on ur wall.

Either way. ;)


I heard in Europe students don't 1)run clubs like in the states (president, vice president, secretary.. etc)

I cannot speak for other schools, but there is an AMSA chapter at MU-Sofia with club officers and some activities. There are several local and regional conferences each year (both specifically for students and for physicians that students can attend). If you look around and are remotely enterprising, you can find some (or even create some) excellent opportunities.


2)Don't organize community service/volunteering

This particular element is rare culturally, but again, if you look around you can find stuff. Just because MOST people do not do it, (and to be sure, volunteerism is exceedingly rare in the Balkans, people are often generally focused on just surviving themselves), does not mean it is impossible. I was able to work with an international organization that provides eye care for orphans, visit orphanages with other NGOs and groups, and found a great many other opportunities. There are also public health and student actions that are becoming readily available.


3)Don't do research projects (it's not flexible to join a lab while in med school and professors are not friendly to run a project) with you

Some students do research, but I have to say that in Bulgaria I think it is a dangerous undertaking. There are still a lot of professors who will actually steal credit for a studentīs work, I have seen it happen. Unless you have a firmly established relationship of trust with a professor in the Balkans, I would avoid research work with them. Unfortunately, I have just seen too many bad situations. My own research work in Bulgaria (often a raging headache in and of itself) is based academically at my PhD university in Switzerland, where those types of things are simply not an issue.


so my thinking you are disadvantage at creating the US style resume.. you know what I am talking about.

I do. And hey, if someone is looking for easy ways to get CV fodder, you are right. It is not always super easy to find those kinds of things in E-EU. But it is possible, and the stuff that you can do if you are willing to work is boots-on-the-freaking-ground (and a lot different than most of what US students are going to put together), which is awesome. If you are enterprising enough to take the time that other students spend partying, getting wasted, or trying-like-the-dickens to get laid, and invest it in finding or creating opportunities for yourself, they are definitely out there. The thing is, most people donīt -- but that in no way means that it cannot be done.


When you are in the states, yougot many things to do and your resume looks nice. But in Europe I heard you are just studying, studying and studying. No summer internships and other ** like in the states. Ya know about extra curricular stuff that's important in the states.

You can absolutely do summer stuff. There are excellent opportunities in Europe and in the US for students who have their crap together. The prerequisite for them, of course... is having your crap together.

I am not trying to toot my own horn, and I am older than most people on VMD, but just as an example: I graduated from a Balkan medical school and I still have forged a fairly decent CV. Not all of it was from my time in medical school (military, masters degree, etc.), but a decent chunk of it is.

Frankly, I think that the bigger question is whether or not people will still be able to match in the States from a foreign school in 5 years or so, regardless of how nice their CV looks? That is the issue that bears some serious attention.

Riften
03-25-2013, 07:23 AM
Either way. ;)



I cannot speak for other schools, but there is an AMSA chapter at MU-Sofia with club officers and some activities. There are several local and regional conferences each year (both specifically for students and for physicians that students can attend). If you look around and are remotely enterprising, you can find some (or even create some) excellent opportunities.



This particular element is rare culturally, but again, if you look around you can find stuff. Just because MOST people do not do it, (and to be sure, volunteerism is exceedingly rare in the Balkans, people are often generally focused on just surviving themselves), does not mean it is impossible. I was able to work with an international organization that provides eye care for orphans, visit orphanages with other NGOs and groups, and found a great many other opportunities. There are also public health and student actions that are becoming readily available.



Some students do research, but I have to say that in Bulgaria I think it is a dangerous undertaking. There are still a lot of professors who will actually steal credit for a studentīs work, I have seen it happen. Unless you have a firmly established relationship of trust with a professor in the Balkans, I would avoid research work with them. Unfortunately, I have just seen too many bad situations. My own research work in Bulgaria (often a raging headache in and of itself) is based academically at my PhD university in Switzerland, where those types of things are simply not an issue.



I do. And hey, if someone is looking for easy ways to get CV fodder, you are right. It is not always super easy to find those kinds of things in E-EU. But it is possible, and the stuff that you can do if you are willing to work is boots-on-the-freaking-ground (and a lot different than most of what US students are going to put together), which is awesome. If you are enterprising enough to take the time that other students spend partying, getting wasted, or trying-like-the-dickens to get laid, and invest it in finding or creating opportunities for yourself, they are definitely out there. The thing is, most people donīt -- but that in no way means that it cannot be done.



You can absolutely do summer stuff. There are excellent opportunities in Europe and in the US for students who have their crap together. The prerequisite for them, of course... is having your crap together.

I am not trying to toot my own horn, and I am older than most people on VMD, but just as an example: I graduated from a Balkan medical school and I still have forged a fairly decent CV. Not all of it was from my time in medical school (military, masters degree, etc.), but a decent chunk of it is.

Frankly, I think that the bigger question is whether or not people will still be able to match in the States from a foreign school in 5 years or so, regardless of how nice their CV looks? That is the issue that bears some serious attention.

Thanks for your long and detailed response. Thanks man for your time.

devildoc8404
03-25-2013, 08:47 AM
No worries... I type fast. ;)

Riften
03-25-2013, 10:19 PM
No worries... I type fast. ;)

You know what. From my prospective, I think you spend a lot of time on VMD. And you ended up in working in Switzerland. If you hand't spent so much on VMD, maybe you have secured a residency spot in Harvard medical school. :p

devildoc8404
03-26-2013, 03:39 AM
Thanks (I think), but I rather doubt it. Harvard was not on my radar (although a Brown program was, for a while), even if I had gone through the US match. I have no regrets at all.







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