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gpamuk
07-17-2012, 03:23 PM
Hi everyone !!
I have just graduated from the Faculty of Medicine in Hacettepe University, one of the leading medical schools in Turkey. Beside my native language turkish, I speak french and english languages fluently and a bit of italian at beginner level. i would like to my residency in belgium or hungary or holland. I would be so grateful if you could inform me about the process and the necessary to apply for residency in Hungary for a non-EU citizen. ?? could you please give me some informations about the applications to have a residency place in a hospital in one of these countries or in an other european country if you have any suggestions for me ??

Thank you for your attention and your HELP !!

Looking forward to your replies!

yours.

devildoc8404
07-17-2012, 04:01 PM
Two of those three countries are unlikely to work in your case. First off, completing a residency in Hungary would require you to speak Hungarian, so that is out. Holland would definitely require fluency in Dutch, and as a non-Dutch citizen it is almost impossible to get a position there, anyway. Not having EU citizenship does not make this an easy proposition. The UK is out for you as a non-EU citizen, as well, despite your English skills. It is the same for me. ;)

With your language skills in French and English, you could likely apply to France (after taking the French placement exam), Belgium (not sure if they require an exam), and Republic of Ireland. There are recruiting agencies for France and possibly for Walloon Belgium. Unfortunately, Ireland no longer allows agencies to place residents into specialization training, so you would need to manage that process on your own... and they have recently cut the numbers of positions in Ireland, as well.

You might also consider trying French-speaking Switzerland, although that would likely be a very tough place to get a position.

I would recommend contacting French (and Belgian) medical recruiting agencies on the internet to see what is available, and to get the exact requirements for taking their exam(s). You could also contact the different specialty training programmes in Ireland to see if they accept non-EU doctors into their training schemes. Some do, and others do not. Good luck!

gpamuk
07-17-2012, 05:15 PM
Two of those three countries are unlikely to work in your case. First off, completing a residency in Hungary would require you to speak Hungarian, so that is out. Holland would definitely require fluency in Dutch, and as a non-Dutch citizen it is almost impossible to get a position there, anyway. Not having EU citizenship does not make this an easy proposition. The UK is out for you as a non-EU citizen, as well, despite your English skills. It is the same for me. ;)

With your language skills in French and English, you could likely apply to France (after taking the French placement exam), Belgium (not sure if they require an exam), and Republic of Ireland. There are recruiting agencies for France and possibly for Walloon Belgium. Unfortunately, Ireland no longer allows agencies to place residents into specialization training, so you would need to manage that process on your own... and they have recently cut the numbers of positions in Ireland, as well.

You might also consider trying French-speaking Switzerland, although that would likely be a very tough place to get a position.

I would recommend contacting French (and Belgian) medical recruiting agencies on the internet to see what is available, and to get the exact requirements for taking their exam(s). You could also contact the different specialty training programmes in Ireland to see if they accept non-EU doctors into their training schemes. Some do, and others do not. Good luck!

Thank you. yes i also thought about appliyng for France but i know that the exam is really tough (event for french students!) and that there is a lot of competition.:/ but i will to apply for hospitals in Belgium.. I don't know anything about the health systeme in Ireland and how it works to get a residency place . is there a state exam? or you get accepted in a position by evaluation on file ??
and Do you suggest i learn german and apply for germany?? cause i guess that it's easier to get a place in germany then other countries in europe in those days.. ?

devildoc8404
07-18-2012, 03:40 AM
Do not confuse the French Concours, which is taken early in medical school (and is BRUTAL), with the exam for determination of residency positions. The second exam is also challenging, but if you pass it then you can get ranked to select an available training position. It would be worth talking with a French medical recruiter to find out more details, in my opinion. I do not know the process for Belgium at all, this is a good question. Let us know what you find out!

For Ireland you would first need to make sure that your medical school credentials are accepted by the IMC. If they are (and I think that they will be), then you need to contact each specialty training programme in the specialty that interests you. They may also have an exam for non-EU medical graduates -- I honestly don't know. Ask them.

Remember, though, that some medical specialties in Ireland do not have regular positions for foreign applicants, and others do. For example, radiology only allows foreign trainees who are funded by a foreign government or other source (these are called "supernumerary positions"), and even then you are competing against many other foreign applicants. However, some other specialties may have openings for foreign applicants. You can find this information on the internet, and by emailing the different specialty colleges in Ireland.

There are a lot more positions in Germany right now than many other places in Europe, yes. However, you need to speak German at the B2 level or above, and you need to interview well... remember that even some doctors who have achieved that level of fluency are still not selected. It is a good option, though, if Belgium and France don't work out.

gpamuk
07-18-2012, 09:57 AM
Do not confuse the French Concours, which is taken early in medical school (and is BRUTAL), with the exam for determination of residency positions. The second exam is also challenging, but if you pass it then you can get ranked to select an available training position. It would be worth talking with a French medical recruiter to find out more details, in my opinion. I do not know the process for Belgium at all, this is a good question. Let us know what you find out!

For Ireland you would first need to make sure that your medical school credentials are accepted by the IMC. If they are (and I think that they will be), then you need to contact each specialty training programme in the specialty that interests you. They may also have an exam for non-EU medical graduates -- I honestly don't know. Ask them.

Remember, though, that some medical specialties in Ireland do not have regular positions for foreign applicants, and others do. For example, radiology only allows foreign trainees who are funded by a foreign government or other source (these are called "supernumerary positions"), and even then you are competing against many other foreign applicants. However, some other specialties may have openings for foreign applicants. You can find this information on the internet, and by emailing the different specialty colleges in Ireland.

There are a lot more positions in Germany right now than many other places in Europe, yes. However, you need to speak German at the B2 level or above, and you need to interview well... remember that even some doctors who have achieved that level of fluency are still not selected. It is a good option, though, if Belgium and France don't work out.

so you're saying that for germany it's mostly the language probleme ? cause i think one wa or the other, even its hard you can start learning a language but if you say it's also tough to get a place even after then its something else!:( And do you know if as a non EU citizen, will i have the possibility and the right to practice ( so, live for good and not temporaryly) in any europeen country once i get my residency license in Germany ??? i mean is it valable in other countries such as france or belgium for exemple or will i have to return to my country ??
and i didn't quite get what you ment for Ireland:/ what is IMC exactly ???:s :) can't i write directly to the clinical chefs of the departments in hospitals ?! for switzerland i did that, but unfortunately they all wrote they dont have a place or a job to offer , or some others wrote they take EU member doctors at the first place! :( i didint get any positive response untill now:(..

devildoc8404
07-18-2012, 11:19 AM
so you're saying that for germany it's mostly the language probleme ? cause i think one wa or the other, even its hard you can start learning a language but if you say it's also tough to get a place even after then its something else!:(

I am saying that the German language is the first barrier. There are also other factors at play, however. Usually, all things being equal, EU citizens will get first selection, so you basically need to be better than most of the competition to get a good position. There are also unofficial preferences for hiring based on country of origin. (However, as I'm sure you know, in some regions there are a great many Turks in Germany... so your Turkish fluency could be a benefit there!) If you present yourself well, can actually interview confidently in German, and are socially adept, you would have a very good chance at finding some sort of position in Germany. (Dermatology, Otolaryngology, and some other specialties are highly competitive and usually not available to foreigners, though, so be aware of that.) Also, note that if you know enough to pass the B2 exam, but cannot really communicate in the language, you stand almost no chance of getting hired. That happens sometimes with people who learn just enough for the exam (or, possibly, try to cheat their way through the language exam) -- but when they interview, they are immediately rejected.

And do you know if as a non EU citizen, will i have the possibility and the right to practice ( so, live for good and not temporaryly) in any europeen country once i get my residency license in Germany ???

That is an immigration question, and it will vary A LOT from country to country. If you trained in Germany, you would still not have German citizenship (it takes 7 years in Germany, and you must give up your previous citizenship to naturalize as a German citizen), so you would be at a disadvantage in most countries of the EU, unless they have a need for doctors. As of right now, you could probably find work in Germany or Sweden AFTER specialization, but the needs of countries and the immigration rules change all the time, so it is kind of impossible to predict.

i mean is it valable in other countries such as france or belgium for exemple or will i have to return to my country ??

The German medical training would be accepted in the entire EU, yes, but that doesn't mean that you could be guaranteed a job anywhere. It would depend on the needs of the individual country. (This is an EU immigration issue, not a medical licensing issue. We are less desirable as non-EU citizens, even if we train in the EU. For that reason, it is very helpful to get EU citizenship if possible!)

and i didn't quite get what you ment for Ireland:/ what is IMC exactly ???:s :)

Irish Medical Council.

can't i write directly to the clinical chefs of the departments in hospitals ?!

No, you can't... well, you can write to them, but they will not be able to help you or hire you directly. You need to understand that Ireland doesn't fill training positions in the same way that they do in Switzerland. They have one big, structured application programme each year, throughout the entire country, and you must go through the entire application and interview process with everyone else. Again, some specialties will not even allow you to apply as a foreigner in Ireland. Others will.

That is different from Switzerland and Germany, where you can (potentially) simply contact a hospital training programme and start the next week, if they have an opening for you and like you. Swiss and German medical hiring goes on all throughout the year as trainee physicians come and go in the hospital programs. However, many other countries (like Ireland, the UK, etc.) don't work that way. You could contact the Irish training programmes individually for questions, but they will still make you to go through the big, annual application process because that is how they select residents. The best people to contact are the individual colleges for the specialties that interest you, and then you can see if they accept foreign applicants for that specialty or not.

for switzerland i did that, but unfortunately they all wrote they dont have a place or a job to offer , or some others wrote they take EU member doctors at the first place! :( i didint get any positive response untill now:(..

Yeah... French-speaking Switzerland is very tough, as I mentioned before. That is probably not likely to be your highest-value location for finding a training position. I would try with recruiters for France, and the individual specialty colleges in Ireland to see what is available and what hoops you would need to jump through... and then also consider Germany if you are willing to learn German.

Good luck.

gpamuk
07-18-2012, 11:45 AM
Thanks a lot.

chapelier
07-19-2012, 06:01 AM
as non-EU with non-EU degree your are not allowed to practice medicine in France ,even if you do this "ECN à titre étranger" which is not the same than french/EU citizens , it just provides you a residency in GP (no other speciality) but no right to practice after this in france
for this you need a EU MD (for most EU countries actually). be attentive about this point , residency/speciality certificate is not a MD...

gpamuk
07-19-2012, 06:30 AM
as non-EU with non-EU degree your are not allowed to practice medicine in France ,even if you do this "" which is not the same than french/EU citizens , it just provides you a residency in GP (no other speciality) but no right to practice after this in france
for this you need a EU MD (for most EU countries actually). be attentive about this point , residency/speciality certificate is not a MD...

Bonjour!
Thanks for your response. So if i pass that 'ECN à titre étranger ' i can start my residency in France ? and whats does it mean GP exactly? did you mean médecin généraliste ?? :/ i know that ecn a titre etranger is different than ecn . but i dont really know about the exam:S ecn a titre etranger, is it a QCM exam or i have to write down for every reponse?? and which subjets are included ? only clinical cases or anatomy, patology, physiology etc. also included in that exam 'ecn à titre etranger'??


(PS: je ne saivais pas si tu etais français ou pas, du coup j'ai écris en anglais au cas où ;) j'attends ta réponse. et merci ! )

devildoc8404
07-19-2012, 08:45 AM
Thanks for that clarification, chapelier! I didn't know that non-EU citizens with non-EU credentials could not practice in France. They really limit the non-EU training in France, don't they... only GP?!

Do the same restrictions apply for non-EU citizens with EU credentials?

chapelier
07-19-2012, 12:51 PM
let's do it ienglish , even though french is easier for me ..
"ecn à titre étranger" allows training mostly in familly medicine (GP , medecine generale) , a few seats also in not very demanded like gerontology , occupational health , but does not allow to practice medicine as fully registered. There is an exam for this , quite tough (PAE , Procédure d’autorisation d’exercice (PAE) - Ministère en charge de la santé (http://www.sante.gouv.fr/secteur-hopital,149.html) )
forum dedicated to this ECN Forum Concours de l'internat à titre étranger (http://forums.remede.org/concours_de_l_internat_a_titre_etranger/103.html) . Same program and also mcq based
The main point to practice medicine in France: to be EU citizen , or from a country with conventiosn (marocco and tunisia). And to have a MD from EU (not is asked for postgraduate / diploma certificate : a EU MD trained in non-EU country for speciality can ask for equivce quite easily)
It's also possible for a non-EU to practice medicine under supervision in a public hospital , but wages are low (1500€/month ; 50hours/wk) , but this possibility is finishing , only those who validated PAE will be allowed to go on

gpamuk
07-19-2012, 02:25 PM
i see. so a non EU citizen with a non Eu degree has to pass the ecn à titre etranger to have a residency place. ( with all other french gratuateds who pass the ecn ) and do the years of residency/internat in the speciality they got into. But still, after these years they can't exercice and have to pass the PAE . i got it right ?
PAE , you have to pass it at the end of the 'internat'?
and during the years of 'internat' , you are paid but less then french internes is that it ??
and i had heard something like 'médecin attaché' , who are they exactly? non EU citizen with non EU degree who succeeded the ecn à titre etranger but not PAE ?!? :/ its complicated !! :)
so , with my non EU diplome of medecin, i pass the ecn a titre etranger ( that i can do right??) , according to my score, i can get a place at a speciality or get a GP place in a hospital, and start my residency. will i have the same formation with other french 'internes' ? and when exactly do i have to pass PAE?!
Im sorry for the fuzziness with my sentences s and THANK YOU !!

sayadi.ahmad
06-14-2013, 11:32 AM
hello, i just wanted to ask you if you know anything concerning those agencies, cause i wasn't able to find any of them..
I'm a medical graduate from a Non-Eu country, and i have been told in switzerland to apply directly and if i was accepted, i will take a visa as worker for 6 months, after that they will evaluate me and if i was Ok with them, they will extend my visa and i will be able to continue the residency program..
thank you in advance

devildoc8404
06-15-2013, 06:55 AM
If you can speak German, French, Italian, or Romantsch, and you are interviewed, and you are hired by a hospital... then you will get a B-visa to work for the hospital. After the evaluation period (actual time thereof may vary), if they want to keep you the Human Resources office of the hospital will automatically extend your visa with the Swiss immigration authorities.

However, the first trick, assuming you are already quite fluent in a Swiss language, is getting an interview and getting hired in Switzerland as a non-EU citizen. That is not usually a very easy process, unless you are married to a Swiss/EU citizen. The most likely agencies for finding medical work in the EU are working Germany right now.

sayadi.ahmad
06-15-2013, 07:04 AM
thanks, well actually I'm married to no Eu citizen but my wife has a B permit visa, but i'm willing to follow her as a part of "regroupement familaile".. i read that if everything will workout i will get a similar B permit visa, which i can work with it..i think this might be an aid..
actually i'm a level B2 in French..but also i speak fluently...
i have been reading your posts earlier, and you were saying about Ireland's cut off!!
do you know where i can search there for any opportunity? i have heard that there are some institutions there, that will take foreigners that have funds probably from a states, organizations or countries.

devildoc8404
06-15-2013, 07:23 AM
I am on the German side of Switzerland, so I do not know how it works in French-speaking Switzerland (specific details can vary from Kanton to Kanton). If your wife is already there, though, that should help... good luck with the interview process!

Due to the financial crisis, Ireland has had a cutback on the number of positions offered and no longer allows their HSE recruiters to bring non-EU foreigners into specialty training scheme positions. If you are funded by a foreign government then you can apply for a supernumerary position in some of the specialty colleges, but you would need to contact the appropriate college for details on that. That is legwork that you will need to do on your own, for obvious reasons.







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