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Chiropractic Must Change!
06-24-2011, 12:49 AM
Hi all,

I'm new here, and have read everything worth reading, and yes, I've actually decided to go to Chiropractic school. I know the pro's and con's, straight vs. mixers, subluxation vs. science.. I value real science more than anyone I know. Am I crazy for going to Chiropractic school?

I'm PRAYING (well, hoping - you can't be religious if you value knowledge and science ;), that by the time I graduate, we will be winning the battle on advancing the scope of chiropractic medicine. I know there is every reason for me to be pessimistic about this. If there has been no progress, I will take classes part time to become a Nurse Practitioner. Problem solved! A Chiro who can actually Rx! (laws vary state-by-state for NP's, but in my state, their scope is indistinguishable from a primary care MD). Heck, if I didn't value my manhood, I'd probably just do that. I digress.

When I graduate from chiro school, I am fortunate enough to have a well established practice making waiting for me to step right in, where I'll be making more than than the average DC.

So, there it is. I'm going to National - the only school which is really leading the charge on pushing for a broad scope of practice. Am I nuts?

NUHS-AUC
06-24-2011, 07:02 PM
I graduated from NUHS, as a Chiropractor, HOWEVER, my advice, save your $$$ and attend MD program, you will recover your loans MUCH MUCH FASTER !!! even while in residency, while MOST Chiropractors are struggling to make 40K per year....

You can go to AUC for only 30K more and get your MD in same time, so my sincere advice from a NUHS graduate perspective, regardless of the fact that NUHS has STRONG Basic sciences, however their clinical science dept is HUGELY LACKING to say the least in comparison to MD clinicals....

Save your $$$ and go to Medical school (MD or DO)

Good luck and I hope you make an informed decision !!

AgActual
06-24-2011, 07:04 PM
double post

AgActual
06-24-2011, 07:09 PM
Am I nuts?

Na. I'll see you in eight weeks.


I have been a DC student at National for a year and a half now, so if you have any questions about anything the school, classes, teachers, the area, send me a PM. And remember, this is probably going to be way more difficult than you expect. Unless you put at least 6 hours a day of studying and go to every lecture, you aint gonna make it. A lot of students roll their eyes when people tell them that before starting the DC program here. Those are the people that went home after the first semester and no one at the school has seen them since. Don't be one of them, take it very seriously. You have been warned.

Chiropractic Must Change!
06-24-2011, 09:23 PM
Na. I'll see you in eight weeks.


I have been a DC student at National for a year and a half now, so if you have any questions about anything the school, classes, teachers, the area, send me a PM. And remember, this is probably going to be way more difficult than you expect. Unless you put at least 6 hours a day of studying and go to every lecture, you aint gonna make it. A lot of students roll their eyes when people tell them that before starting the DC program here. Those are the people that went home after the first semester and no one at the school has seen them since. Don't be one of them, take it very seriously. You have been warned.

So let's see.. Class 9-5 every day, year round, for 3 1/3 years, to be perceived as a quack and "not a real doctor", hearing patients say "how long do you have to go to school to be a chiropractor?" me: "after 4 years of undergrad, it's an additional 3.5 years, year round." patient: "oh, so it's like almost the same as a real doctor?" (real convo I had with a patient while interning with a chiro).

Man, now I'm torn and second guessing myself.

Question: Do Osteopathic schools have rolling admission (year-round), or only in the fall? I know carribean MD schools have year-round admission, but I'd prefer staying in the US if I can get into a DO program.

AgActual
06-24-2011, 09:45 PM
So let's see.. Class 9-5 every day, year round, for 3 1/3 years, to be perceived as a quack and "not a real doctor", hearing patients say "how long do you have to go to school to be a chiropractor?" me: "after 4 years of undergrad, it's an additional 3.5 years, year round." patient: "oh, so it's like almost the same as a real doctor?" (real convo I had with a patient while interning with a chiro).

Man, now I'm torn and second guessing myself.

Question: Do Osteopathic schools have rolling admission (year-round), or only in the fall? I know carribean MD schools have year-round admission, but I'd prefer staying in the US if I can get into a DO program.


Look if your heart isn't in to it, don't do it. National is a solid school and a graduate of the school can stand toe to toe with any MD or DO when it comes to dealing with non-surgical MSK care. If you want to be a DC and you want to practice it right, come to National. But if you are full of doubt and overwhelmed with concern then you will be regretting your decision everyday. Most DC's make a decent living and properly trained chiropractors can truly help people, and earn the respect of their patients. But if you still see too many downsides, there are many other health care fields to get into. If you want to learn manipulation but chiropractic isn't for you, become a DO or DPT. Both are great professionals, as well.

But really think about it. Don't rush into anything, whether it is chiropractic school, osteopathic school, med school, whatever. I bet you are young, you have time. Give it a few months, a year, year and a half. Really figure out what you want and find a career where you will be happy and where you can help people. ss All of these professions will still be here when you figure it out.

And to answer your question about DO schools, it appears some do have rolling admissions and some don't. I'm not sure which ones do but a quick search of the SDN forums seems to show that there are a few DO schools that have it. Going over there might help you with your questions about osteopathy.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=13



Best of luck to you.

Forsaken38
06-24-2011, 10:55 PM
So many people are not informed about Chiro education. If you don't have thick skin and a lot of patience maybe it isn't the best choice for you. We have discussed the Real doctor thing before somewhere on here. That is an overshadowing of the major medical organizations opinion of chiropractors. You will get that a lot because of the public perception of chiro. The point is we are doctors; just like J.D., Ed.D., Pharm.D. and other first professional degree holders. In the public's eyes the word doctor is synonymous with Medical Doctor. Chiro's are still doctors, just not medical doctors. And there are alot of idiot DC's out there that make the profession look bad. The point is to realize what a chiropractors scope of practice is and stay within it. Like AgActual said most evidence based DC's earn the respect of their patients, MD's/ DO's and their communities. So it will be what you make of it.

This has got to be a personal decision not a consensus of our opinions. At the end of the day, you are accountable to yourself. Are you going to regret your decision, or will you love what you're doing? I made that decision a year or so ago; that's what we all have to ask ourselves. Do what you will love doing and you will never go wrong.


So let's see.. Class 9-5 every day, year round, for 3 1/3 years, to be perceived as a quack and "not a real doctor", hearing patients say "how long do you have to go to school to be a chiropractor?" me: "after 4 years of undergrad, it's an additional 3.5 years, year round." patient: "oh, so it's like almost the same as a real doctor?" (real convo I had with a patient while interning with a chiro).

Man, now I'm torn and second guessing myself.

Question: Do Osteopathic schools have rolling admission (year-round), or only in the fall? I know carribean MD schools have year-round admission, but I'd prefer staying in the US if I can get into a DO program.

canuckdc
06-25-2011, 06:10 AM
go for it and good luck!

p.s. not the best forum on chiropractic advice

NUHS-AUC
06-25-2011, 01:26 PM
Believe me, Chiropractic is on a rapid down slope, most MDs (99%) don't think highly of your 3-4 years education at Chiro-college, and have no idea of the differnces (Palmer vs. National etc...) also treat DCs as Massage therapists with 3 months of education.....

The Chiropractic profession has no credibility nor is accepted as a mainstream profession !

I will repeat it for the last time on this blog, I am a DC graduate from a reputable DC school (NUHS-4 years program, and one of the FEW Evidence based/science based DC programs internationally) graduate with honors, HOWEVER, there is NO money in the profession of Chiropractic, and in order for you to make a $$$ you are going to work as a used car salesman. I spent over 150K on my DC education and 4 years of my life, luckily woke up soon enough to make a switch to Medicine...No comparison.....you will make 60K as R1, and after Residency potential income is at least 200K....VERY secure profession..

If you enjoy body work, or Manipulation I would encourage you to consider DO programs, currently at least 20 accredited programs nationwide and average class size is 200....while most DC collleges are STRUGGLING with enrollments issues, many are actually CLOSING down, due to lack of students....When I was in NUHS, our DC class size was around 40 DC students, on my graduation there were 36 DCs.....A FAR CRY from my MD class at AUC which was over 100 MDs !!!

Do your research NOT only on DC schools, but on the CHIROPRACTIC Profession as a whole and watch some Two and a half men as a side kick :)

Good luck !!



So let's see.. Class 9-5 every day, year round, for 3 1/3 years, to be perceived as a quack and "not a real doctor", hearing patients say "how long do you have to go to school to be a chiropractor?" me: "after 4 years of undergrad, it's an additional 3.5 years, year round." patient: "oh, so it's like almost the same as a real doctor?" (real convo I had with a patient while interning with a chiro).

Man, now I'm torn and second guessing myself.

Question: Do Osteopathic schools have rolling admission (year-round), or only in the fall? I know carribean MD schools have year-round admission, but I'd prefer staying in the US if I can get into a DO program.

Forsaken38
06-25-2011, 02:52 PM
First of all, I think the 99% is highly overinflated. I personally know quite a few MD's who respect a good evidence based DC. Secondly, Many MD's are not opposed to chiro they are just ignorant about chiro, So educate them. Third look at the number of chiropractors across the US vs the number of MD's; there are alot more MD's. Always have, always will. That has nothing to do with whether or not chiropractic is failing. The number of graduates has not changed with most schools. Only one school has closed its doors recently, and that is Cleveland LA, and the reason is simple economics. there are alot of chiro schools in that area and the market share for the LA campus wasn't large enough to warrant keeping it open. Also all the students at that school either went to a nearby school or moved to kansas city. So the number of students did not change.

Although some of what you say is true, I disagree with you on some points. I respect the opinions of everybody here, but try not to quote your opinions as facts unless you can provide irrefutable data.

NUHS-AUC
06-25-2011, 07:11 PM
That's not a problem, I can support my argument with PLENTY of facts, according to Cochrane collaboration, Chiropractic is ONLY proven for acute low back pain, certain cases of Neck pain, and in some cases of cervicogenic headaches that's it ! LIMITED profession, 4 years of school, in order to treat 3 conditions ??? where is the legitimacy or the argument here ?? why waste 150K of tuition on such profession ?? where you can obtain a DPT degree and work in a hospital and have access to full rehab protocols and MD/DO referrals:

Chiropractic student Defaults (highest among health care professionals)
The Student Loan Mess: Why Chiropractic Is in Trouble (http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/loan.html)
Department of Education; Office of Postsecondary Education; Federal Perkins Loan Program, Federal Family Education Loan Program, and William D. Ford Federal Direct Loan Program; 34 CFR Parts 674, 682, and 685; Final regulations [OPE] (http://www2.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/finrule/2008-4/102308a.html)

There are TOO many Chiropractors, yes there are more MDs, but MDs % of utilization is over 80% while % of utilization of DCs is under 7%:
Economic and resource status of the chiropractic p... [J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2008] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18328936)

Chiropractic STILL is considered a form of CAM, and not mainstream:
An overview of systematic reviews of complementary... [Clin Rheumatol. 2011] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21614472)

Most patients to consider MD/DO followed by DPT/Physical Therapists and LASTLY consider DCs or Chiropractors:
Factors Associated With Care Seeking From Physicia... [J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2011] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21654096)
Home | The Cochrane Collaboration (http://www.cochrane.org/search/site/chiropractic)

I can waste more of my time, providing you with evidence, but why bother, I already wasted 4 years in DC school, and had enough of it, even though the basic sciences was great, I recommend ALL prospective patients to carefully study the profession, perhaps even pursue MA/MS in Biomedical sciences, which would give you same quality of basic science training pre-med school for much less $$$ and only 2 years....

Good luck :)






First of all, I think the 99% is highly overinflated. I personally know quite a few MD's who respect a good evidence based DC. Secondly, Many MD's are not opposed to chiro they are just ignorant about chiro, So educate them. Third look at the number of chiropractors across the US vs the number of MD's; there are alot more MD's. Always have, always will. That has nothing to do with whether or not chiropractic is failing. The number of graduates has not changed with most schools. Only one school has closed its doors recently, and that is Cleveland LA, and the reason is simple economics. there are alot of chiro schools in that area and the market share for the LA campus wasn't large enough to warrant keeping it open. Also all the students at that school either went to a nearby school or moved to kansas city. So the number of students did not change.

Although some of what you say is true, I disagree with you on some points. I respect the opinions of everybody here, but try not to quote your opinions as facts unless you can provide irrefutable data.

thebonecrusher10
06-25-2011, 10:44 PM
Good debate guys! I think honestly if I had to do over, I would of applied to DO school. I do enjoy being a DC and work very hard, but I do hate the limited scope. Although I am finding I can do many many many things with my current patients like physiotherapy, manipulation, nutrition counseling, emotional counseling, etc. I tend to treat the mind, body, and soul of patients (not just the low back pain). While I was a student at Palmer, I had an instructor (who had graduated from National) say to me once that any monkey can learn to crack bones and manipulate in a few days time. But how are you going to care for the patient? To be a successful DC in 2011, this really is the trick to success I think. I stick to musculoskeletal stuff and use Diversified, Thompson, and (rarely) Gonstead techniques. Most of my patients are amish or geriatrics and they love me, and I love them!

Regardless, chiropractic is a very poor choice for a profession. You can do everything I can do as a DO and much more. Why not go that route? The ONLY reason I think you should choose to be a DC is because you want to be one more than anything AND you want to be a part of the historical battle to fight for scope expansion. As someone who was a political science major in college, I live for this stuff! haha

Regardless of what route you choose, good luck to you and National is among the best schools for DCs!

Forsaken38
06-26-2011, 09:34 AM
HAHA I don't disagree with some of these stats, but none of them directly support your original statements. Yes utilization is 7-9%, we know that. Yes we know the majority of public opinion of chiropractic, and yea chiro students have the highest default rate of Healthcare. but it's really only 1-2% much lower than the national average for all graduate loans. The only thing you state that is directly relevant to your original post is that chiro is considered CAM. I don't disagree, but you said originally that it has NO credibility, which is a false statement. Not being mainstream by definition doesn't mean you have zero credibility.

Also I read each article you posted, Chirobase is not a very reputable source, but it does show some interesting bias. The article from the Dept of education only mentions the word chiropractic one time; and it doesn't even mention default rates. Third, the article about there being too many chiropractors was only conducted in Ontario, Canada; Not a large enough demographic to make a blanket statement; Demographics will play a huge part in those numbers. Fourth, no one disagrees that Chiropractic is considered CAM; this is due to legal definition requirements, no problems here. Lastly, the final article you posted does not support your statement. The article summary says that 61% of people with back pain will seek MD treatment, 28% will seek DC treatment, and only 11% will seek a MD/PT care. And they list factors as to why this is the case. And while more patients will seek MD treatment first, more people seek DC treatment than a combined MD/PT treatment.

The cochrane website is very good but I didn't have time to read all the articles that listed the word chiropractic. :)

That being said I love this Forum. I love reading your perspectives and gleaning what I can from your collective wisdom. :)

Cheers to all.


That's not a problem, I can support my argument with PLENTY of facts, according to Cochrane collaboration, Chiropractic is ONLY proven for acute low back pain, certain cases of Neck pain, and in some cases of cervicogenic headaches that's it ! LIMITED profession, 4 years of school, in order to treat 3 conditions ??? where is the legitimacy or the argument here ?? why waste 150K of tuition on such profession ?? where you can obtain a DPT degree and work in a hospital and have access to full rehab protocols and MD/DO referrals:

Chiropractic student Defaults (highest among health care professionals)
The Student Loan Mess: Why Chiropractic Is in Trouble (http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/loan.html)
Department of Education; Office of Postsecondary Education; Federal Perkins Loan Program, Federal Family Education Loan Program, and William D. Ford Federal Direct Loan Program; 34 CFR Parts 674, 682, and 685; Final regulations [OPE] (http://www2.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/finrule/2008-4/102308a.html)

There are TOO many Chiropractors, yes there are more MDs, but MDs % of utilization is over 80% while % of utilization of DCs is under 7%:
Economic and resource status of the chiropractic p... [J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2008] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18328936)

Chiropractic STILL is considered a form of CAM, and not mainstream:
An overview of systematic reviews of complementary... [Clin Rheumatol. 2011] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21614472)

Most patients to consider MD/DO followed by DPT/Physical Therapists and LASTLY consider DCs or Chiropractors:
Factors Associated With Care Seeking From Physicia... [J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2011] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21654096)
Home | The Cochrane Collaboration (http://www.cochrane.org/search/site/chiropractic)

I can waste more of my time, providing you with evidence, but why bother, I already wasted 4 years in DC school, and had enough of it, even though the basic sciences was great, I recommend ALL prospective patients to carefully study the profession, perhaps even pursue MA/MS in Biomedical sciences, which would give you same quality of basic science training pre-med school for much less $$$ and only 2 years....

Good luck :)

khiro
06-27-2011, 12:15 PM
bonecrusher is right; DO is an excellent model of practice for those individuals interested in manipulation. it is also an excellent example of a profession refusing to be second class citizens in health care. now there are some mds who (privately) still do not like them, but the DOs are cashing those medicare checks just like the mds. the only reason i can think of becoming a DC is if your daddy is one and he is going to give you a very healthy practice where you can make your money for retirement in 5-10 yrs (not longer). so if you can go DC and get out and save 200k after expenses (practice and home) and taxes; and you can do this for 5+ yrs, then the investment of time, money and energy might work for you. if you don't have that arrangement and are not well versed in chiropractic and its practice, then go the easy route.....NUHS-AUC is correct go DO or MD.




Regardless, chiropractic is a very poor choice for a profession. You can do everything I can do as a DO and much more. Why not go that route? The ONLY reason I think you should choose to be a DC is because you want to be one more than anything AND you want to be a part of the historical battle to fight for scope expansion. As someone who was a political science major in college, I live for this stuff! haha

Regardless of what route you choose, good luck to you and National is among the best schools for DCs!

GiJoe
07-01-2011, 01:07 AM
...............

thebonecrusher10
07-02-2011, 11:04 PM
Everyon here is aware of the PAGE Dr. Stephen Perlstein created on Facebook called Primary Care Chiropractic Physicians? There is also a GROUP on Facebook called, Chiropractors for Prescriptive Authority, of which I created. Both function to organize and work towards scope expansion. STOP being quiet and get INVOLVED!







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