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AgActual
06-06-2011, 01:44 PM
I'll tell you, the guy that runs my school is really pounding away at this issue, as of late. He is traveling the country, giving speeches, testifying at state legislatures, giving interviews, and apparently now, writing articles. The man wants chiropractic to have an expanded scope and he seems hell bent on seeing it happen.

Best for the Profession or Best for the Public? (http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=55375)

khiro
06-06-2011, 04:31 PM
go back and read my post where i blasted the ICA and ACA for holding back chiropractic. where i specifically mentioned how the DOs transtitioned into PCP; where i specifically wrote about how PAs and NPs were medicating the pts of chiropractors and speaking ill of us whenever an opportunity allows; where i specifically wrote that it is long past time for the profession to move forward. i feel good knowing that i stand in the company of dr. w. this profession needs many more men (and women) like him.

it is a sad day indeed when you have to read or experience the kind of nonsense that happened in new mexico, and how the straights from life and others came out to oppose any progress.

about 4 or 5 yrs ago the FCA was really close to establishing a chiro research center at FSU; hopefully leading to a state supported chiro school in the future. although we do have a research center at another college, it did not happen at FSU. why? 2 reasons. one, a very strong and influential drive by a large orthopedic group in tallahassee (we are talking very large and lots of money but wait, i thought that mds didn't dislike us anymore. think again), and for reason number 2 surprise, palmer. palmer wanted their own school in florida (and they established one). there are not enough words to describe my disgust with the politics of this profession.

finishingfifth
06-06-2011, 04:58 PM
Its no secret MD's dislike chiropractors. They dont practice evidence based medicine. If you seriously believe in evidence based medicine you discount chiropractic. The idea of them prescribing meds without going to medical school and passing the boards is dangerous. If you want to be an MD, fine,please go to med school. There is a reason that not one university medical center has a school for chiropractors, its because very few in mainstream medicine believes it has true value. You can rant and rave all you want, you know its true.

CARICOM-MED
06-06-2011, 09:11 PM
I agree for the most part, however, not much evidence based or science behind Psychiatric drugs for that matter :)
For Acute Psychosis perhaps we can argue, but, for most chronic psych conditions I've seen it fail over and over again, in the past 8 years of my clinical practice. Nevertheless, I hope and do wish to see Chiropractors adopt public health, and move forward in the same direction of allopathic medicine. Evidence based is where the future of medicine is moving towards, integrative medicine, is what the public want, hence why not offer both ??

Cheers !


Its no secret MD's dislike chiropractors. They dont practice evidence based medicine. If you seriously believe in evidence based medicine you discount chiropractic. The idea of them prescribing meds without going to medical school and passing the boards is dangerous. If you want to be an MD, fine,please go to med school. There is a reason that not one university medical center has a school for chiropractors, its because very few in mainstream medicine believes it has true value. You can rant and rave all you want, you know its true.

AgActual
06-06-2011, 09:12 PM
Its no secret MD's dislike chiropractors. They dont practice evidence based medicine. If you seriously believe in evidence based medicine you discount chiropractic. The idea of them prescribing meds without going to medical school and passing the boards is dangerous. If you want to be an MD, fine,please go to med school. There is a reason that not one university medical center has a school for chiropractors, its because very few in mainstream medicine believes it has true value. You can rant and rave all you want, you know its true.

Ok but I think that they are proposing that current chiropractors receive an extra 3 years of training before earning prescription privileges. And changing the curriculum of chiropractic programs in order to allow future DCs to know how to prescribe medication once done with school.

CARICOM-MED
06-06-2011, 09:14 PM
GREAT !!
In that case, why not :)
Would also recommend at least 12 months or 1 year of rotating type internship in accredited hospital !

Cheers,


Ok but I think that they are proposing that current chiropractors receive an extra 3 years of training before earning prescription privileges. And changing the curriculum of chiropractic programs in order to allow future DCs to know how to prescribe medication once done with school.

Forsaken38
06-06-2011, 09:46 PM
I read once that any MD over 40 will probably hate you. I think it goes back to the training they received in the 80's and previous. The whole not evidence based argument has diminished over time as new data comes available. Chiropractic is very evidence based, those who think it isn't do not have a clue what strides the profession has made in the last 10 years. Do some research, read the peer review journals. The data is there. National has a great peer review journal btw. I read it when I'm not studying.

Like USHADOC said we have very little research for many psych drugs. I had a long talk with my psychiatry prof about this, he said it boils down to "the more we learn about brain chemistry/ pharmacology, the more we understand how little we know."

A rotating internship would be great!!

AgActual
06-06-2011, 10:25 PM
I read once that any MD over 40 will probably hate you.

My chiropractic history professor said the exact same thing at one point.

khiro
06-07-2011, 09:38 AM
finishingfifth;
thank you for your post. it is important that agactual and forsaken38 and others who might be interested in entering chiropractic school know of what the average MD thinks of chiropractic. your view is one shared by most MDs who have not worked with chiropractors and pts with back injuries, and although there are a lot of specialities where it doesn't matter what an MD thinks, there are a few where it is extremely important. b/c chiropractic has refused to throw away "subluxation" as the cause of all illness and other out-dated mantras, not only have the medics been against us but it has confused the public almost to the point of beyond repair. no one in chiropractic is recommending prescription rights without education (however we do want the right to "adjust" animals without being a vet?). it is extremely interesting to see the discussion within the ranks of chiropractic education about such changes as drugs. however, with the way things are now in chiropractic i do strongly recommend interested students to carefully weigh the pros and cons of this profession and i am happy to see that you agree with me in recommending that if you want to prescribe then go to med school (MD or DO). i do see why mds and others have credibility issues with chiro b/c i sure do.

in my years of treating disc injuries i have only found solid support from neurosurgeons. half support from neurologists. zero from orthos. family docs (NP, PA) mostly just get in the way. and i do not treat animals. come to think of it, in 25 yrs of practice i have never told a pt that they have a subluxation. now that is incredible; i was able to build a practice without using the subluxation. from my experience the public could use a well trained chiropractor with prescription rights (i know my town could use one) and i think that UHSADOC has the right plan.



Its no secret MD's dislike chiropractors. They dont practice evidence based medicine. If you seriously believe in evidence based medicine you discount chiropractic. The idea of them prescribing meds without going to medical school and passing the boards is dangerous. If you want to be an MD, fine,please go to med school. There is a reason that not one university medical center has a school for chiropractors, its because very few in mainstream medicine believes it has true value. You can rant and rave all you want, you know its true.

finishingfifth
06-07-2011, 10:35 AM
I agree for the most part, however, not much evidence based or science behind Psychiatric drugs for that matter :)
For Acute Psychosis perhaps we can argue, but, for most chronic psych conditions I've seen it fail over and over again, in the past 8 years of my clinical practice. Nevertheless, I hope and do wish to see Chiropractors adopt public health, and move forward in the same direction of allopathic medicine. Evidence based is where the future of medicine is moving towards, integrative medicine, is what the public want, hence why not offer both ??

Cheers !

I agree there is a high rate of failure for chronic psychosis, the reason is often medication complaince. The same is true of diabetes, the meds work gret, but few pts take them as prescribed with the proper lifestyle modifications, the result is sub- optimal glycemic control in most patients, this neither a failure of the primary care phsycian or the medication, but rather the patient. Pts with psychiatric illness are further complicated by the fact that the intrinsic nature of their illness leads to non compliance. If you require any resources that could help in your practice in the biologic basis of disease and evidence based medicine in psychiatry,please let me know, I will be happy to provde links.

The truth is I feel bad for chiropractors, I believe most of them are guys trying to make a living selling stuff that in their hearts they know is nonsense. It must wear on them after a while.

khiro
06-07-2011, 12:16 PM
i appreciate your sympathy, at least for the ones of us that try to reduce discs through manipulation, physical therapy, etc. who every day have to put up with the nonsense of other dcs adjusting animals, newborns, subluxations for life, and the list could get long; so please don't give your sympathy for all dcs. there are those dcs who truly believe as hard as you do in what they do and why they do it. and the fact that i think it is kooky doesn't matter to them at all. so i don't believe that most chiros are guys trying to make a living selling stuff that in their hearts they know is nonsense. whatever path of thought they choose to practice is one that they believe in. for chiropractic, it is non-subluxation (like me) or it is the typical life (and others) graduate (subluxation). and the poor public at large knows not about this difference.
i think what dr. w at national is trying to do is to break free from those types of chiros; and the method of doing that is to increase the educational requirements. but it doesn't make a lot of sense to increase requirements if not the scope of practice, and to ultimately offer something that the other dcs can not stomach. a sad but necessary way to differentiate DCs. but this is the question: for AgActual and others, can a DC do treatments for back injuries in a legit manner (without offering adjustments for life plans), and still make a respectable living in terms of money? i can only answer that for me. with the current reimbursement environment and the restricted scope of practice, for my little town, the answer is NO. it used to be YES, obviously b/c of my length of time in practice. so dr. w. knows of the problems and has the stones to bring it up; over and over and over. i can't say enough about how i respect this man for speaking the truth.




The truth is I feel bad for chiropractors, I believe most of them are guys trying to make a living selling stuff that in their hearts they know is nonsense. It must wear on them after a while.

Forsaken38
06-07-2011, 07:24 PM
I agree. Dr. W is trying to advance the profession; IMO this is really the only advance we can make as chiropractors. Many will remain stagnant in this, but I see it as a way to increase our market value, provide more services for the patient, and increase our reimbursements. And yes, these things may happen very slowly. But I too am thankful for men like Dr. W who continue to push for more than just mediocrity. We could be so much more than we are now.



but this is the question: for AgActual and others, can a DC do treatments for back injuries in a legit manner (without offering adjustments for life plans), and still make a respectable living in terms of money? i can only answer that for me. with the current reimbursement environment and the restricted scope of practice, for my little town, the answer is NO. it used to be YES, obviously b/c of my length of time in practice. so dr. w. knows of the problems and has the stones to bring it up; over and over and over. i can't say enough about how i respect this man for speaking the truth.

thebonecrusher10
06-07-2011, 08:24 PM
As a Palmer alum, I'm very thankful for Dr. Winterstein.

Regarding practicing, I'm fairly new to the field. I graduated in 2010. But thus far, I practice and only tell a patient to come back if I feel they need to be seen. And I tell very few patients to come back (probably 1-3 a day). So little so, I had 2 patients on the books for today. If they ask me when to come back, I tell them they can come back whenever they want. If I have a 80 year old with muscle spasms everywhere, I may tell them to come back next week until I get a handle on them. But other than that, I don't sell treatment plans and I have never used the word subluxation to a patient.

Today, I saw 2 patients. I didn't even make enough last month to pay my very modest $400 a month rent. If you are a student still enrolled and more than 1 year from graduation, I'd STRONGLY urge you to reconsider before you invest anymore time or money in this profession. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make an honest living.

Forsaken38
06-07-2011, 09:20 PM
I have to ask, where are you practicing? Some areas are terrible, some are great. If you have the data what is the demographic breakdown of your community?


As a Palmer alum, I'm very thankful for Dr. Winterstein.

Regarding practicing, I'm fairly new to the field. I graduated in 2010. But thus far, I practice and only tell a patient to come back if I feel they need to be seen. And I tell very few patients to come back (probably 1-3 a day). So little so, I had 2 patients on the books for today. If they ask me when to come back, I tell them they can come back whenever they want. If I have a 80 year old with muscle spasms everywhere, I may tell them to come back next week until I get a handle on them. But other than that, I don't sell treatment plans and I have never used the word subluxation to a patient.

Today, I saw 2 patients. I didn't even make enough last month to pay my very modest $400 a month rent. If you are a student still enrolled and more than 1 year from graduation, I'd STRONGLY urge you to reconsider before you invest anymore time or money in this profession. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make an honest living.

AgActual
06-07-2011, 10:22 PM
I have to ask, where are you practicing? Some areas are terrible, some are great. If you have the data what is the demographic breakdown of your community?

Good questions. I would also wonder about the number of chiros already practicing in the area, whether this is a solo practice or if he owns his own, and which state he is in.

It is strange. I see some people graduate chiro school and do just fine, even practicing ethically, and i see others struggle. I do wonder why some people are successful right out of the gates and why others have a tough time getting going. What are the factors? I like to believe it is more than just luck.

NUHS-AUC
06-07-2011, 11:41 PM
Yes, I agree, however, medicine is MUCH more secure, and guaranteed, National is paving the way for all future DCs, but will take YEARS until DCs will be considered true Primary care. Some of my alma matter already dropped out of the profession, and returned to their older occupation pre-NUHS, i.e. Teachers, Accounting, Banking etc...

The few of us that went on and applied to accredited Medical schools and matched, have at least guaranteed future in healthcare :) Sorry to say, but that's the truth, I seriously hope that Chiropractic will move forward, but, I'm too old to sit around and wait for the profession to change, or convince bunch of "straight" DCs that subluxation is an old dogma :)


Good questions. I would also wonder about the number of chiros already practicing in the area, whether this is a solo practice or if he owns his own, and which state he is in.

It is strange. I see some people graduate chiro school and do just fine, even practicing ethically, and i see others struggle. I do wonder why some people are successful right out of the gates and why others have a tough time getting going. What are the factors? I like to believe it is more than just luck.

thebonecrusher10
06-07-2011, 11:57 PM
I'm in a town of 2,500 in rural Indiana. Its heavy amish country. But I'm also 1 of 5 chiropractors in the area. Yes-5 chiropractors for a town of 2,500. That alone should tell you a lot about our profession.

Its hard for me to bitch. Some days I see 2 patients, some days I see 15. Considering I've only been in this town for about 6 weeks, I dont think I can complain. That, and being in an area where everyone else is a Logan grad makes it easier on some of us others, haha.

That aside, it shouldn't be so hard to make a decent income when you've dedicated 8+ yrs of your life to your training. Anyone who has commited that much time and money and effort should be entitled (yes, I said it) to have a job right out of school at LEAST making 40k.

In my situation in particular, it especially sucks. After my parents divorced, my mom raised me and two older brothers on the $4 an hour she earned at Walmart. Thats why I sacrificed so long to go to school, because I wanted something better. Now I'm stuck in this bullshit career and still starving. Maybe things will be better when I get on social security? :(

khiro
06-08-2011, 09:57 AM
thebonecrusher10

when you have paid the price (money, time, effort) of going to school then yes you have earned your right to the access of a good and secure salary. unfortunately that does not apply to chiro school or its grads. it is true for NUHS-AUC, and all other mds and DOs if they so choose. i have already mentioned in a post yesterday of the secret formula for monetary success in medicine. the financial foundation of an md/do practice is (drum roll please), medicare. in my area pts have 12 visits a yr max for chiro at $34 per visit pd by MC. fam med is at least 2x, and depending on procedure 3-4x that amount. this is just one area. there are others. you do have a lot of competition with 4 other dcs, the public has too many options. back before i started my practice when chiro had limited insurance coverage the preferred ratio in florida was 1DC to 10k population (before the dc machine was cranked up (life college). insurance got good and that dropped in half. i wouldn't even attempt to try and figure out what a good ratio would be today (a poor 10,000 town with high unemployment is much worse than a high salary town of 4000). don't sell yourself out; your degree is definitely not worth NUHS-AUC b/c the field is not equal; but your degree is not worth zero either.
[QUOTE=thebonecrusher10;1382951

That aside, it shouldn't be so hard to make a decent income when you've dedicated 8+ yrs of your life to your training. Anyone who has commited that much time and money and effort should be entitled (yes, I said it) to have a job right out of school at LEAST making 40k.
:([/QUOTE]







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