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AgActual
03-06-2011, 01:59 PM
One of Cleveland Chiropractic College's campuses is shutting down forever, leaving them with just their Kansas City location. Here is the letter sent out by the president of the college.


From: "Carl ClevelandIII-CCC" <[email protected]>
To: CCCKC Alumni
Subject: Cleveland Chiropractic College of Los Angeles

In a press release earlier today, I announced to the Cleveland - Los Angeles students, faculty and staff, the decision of the Board of Trustees to cease operations and close that campus at the end of summer 2011.

This change will have no effect on Cleveland Chiropractic College – Kansas City .

The decision to close Cleveland Chiropractic College of Los Angeles has been difficult for the Board of Trustees; however, challenging economic conditions and a continuing downward enrollment trend impacting the California chiropractic colleges dictates that this consolidation is necessary.

CCC-LA has a long, spirited history and has graduated thousands of well-trained, successful chiropractors who have gone on to provide care to countless patients. Over these many years, the faculty and staff have made an invaluable contribution to society, the profession, the community and countless families and individuals. We are forever grateful for our employees’ dedicated service to the mission of this institution. We extend our sincerest best wishes for the future to all who work and study here.

Carl S. Cleveland III, DC
President
Cleveland Chiropractic College
Kansas City and Los Angeles

Cleveland Chiropractic College - News (http://www.cleveland.edu/news)


No worries though. Cleveland is a fairly straight school and isn't one I would mind seeing gone.

In the last 10 years, Cleveland's admissions have been cut in half and they have gone from one of the largest chiropractic colleges to one of the smallest. In 2000, they had 300 graduates but in 2009, they were down to only 150. I'm not sure what happened to them but they appear to be a dying institution.

Forsaken38
03-06-2011, 09:47 PM
No worries though. Cleveland is a fairly straight school and isn't one I would mind seeing gone.

In the last 10 years, Cleveland's admissions have been cut in half and they have gone from one of the largest chiropractic colleges to one of the smallest. In 2000, they had 300 graduates but in 2009, they were down to only 150. I'm not sure what happened to them but they appear to be a dying institution.
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This may not necessarily be true. I started classes last week in Kansas City, and one of my professors said," I don't want you to do anything as a chiropractor that can't be proven scientifically." On the surface it sounds pretty good. Hmm. I did just start, so maybe im wrong, but I haven't seen or experienced anything that could be called crazy yet. I guess we will see what happens as I get deeper into it.

One of the reasons that admissions are down, I think, is because of the higher admissions standards. We went through an orientation seminar and we were told the admission statistics for the kansas city campus.
The average undergrad gpa of all matriculating students was 3.10 last year, and the majority of these have Bachelors degrees. They will not even look at your file if you have a gpa lower than 2.5 in any category (cum, science, prereq). If you have a gpa lower than 2.8 in any category then they make you take the CCAT. If you don't pass that, you don't get in. I don't know how many applicants took the ccat.

Another reason I think admissions are down is they are not recruiting as agressively as they did a few years ago. This along with the slow shifting of philosophy at the school may be part of the explanation.

And the LA campus had a much smaller student body. My guess is with the current economy it became very difficult to meet operating costs.

But who knows, Ag you may be right, maybe its dying, If that happens I may move to National :)

Cheers

AgActual
03-06-2011, 10:38 PM
This may not necessarily be true. I started classes last week in Kansas City, and one of my professors said," I don't want you to do anything as a chiropractor that can't be proven scientifically." On the surface it sounds pretty good. Hmm. I did just start, so maybe im wrong, but I haven't seen or experienced anything that could be called crazy yet. I guess we will see what happens as I get deeper into it.

Ah, i was recently wondering what ended up happening with your educational plans. I suppose now I know.

Hopefully I am wrong about their philosophy. I know about 10 years ago they were a fairly straight school. Not as bad as many others but still somewhat into that stuff. Maybe it has changed since then. Who knows?

Then again, do keep in mind that most straight chiropractors do believe that vertebral subluxations are a scientifically validated concept, so what your professor said isn't necessarily proof but a good sign none the less. Last week one of my professors had about a 5 minute rant about how we would be morons to get on that subluxation bandwagon this day and age. He believes it is a rapidly dying idea, although we aren't really taught about it so not too big of a deal. But it was quite refreshing to hear yet another teacher at my school to dismiss that whole concept as total nonsense.

So hopefully Cleveland is or has moved away from that. And i guess you will be the one to inform us if they are or aren't moving in that direction.



Another reason I think admissions are down is they are not recruiting as agressively as they did a few years ago. This along with the slow shifting of philosophy at the school may be part of the explanation.

And the LA campus had a much smaller student body. My guess is with the current economy it became very difficult to meet operating costs.

Perhaps. There are 3 other chiropractic colleges in LA, all of which have taken a hit in recent years. Maybe the whole area has become over saturated.


But who knows, Ag you may be right, maybe its dying, If that happens I may move to National :)

I think you should be alright over there. There are still enough students at Cleveland to keep the school open for a few more years. But they certainly have lost a lot of students recently. Something to keep an eye on.

khiro
03-07-2011, 01:09 PM
while there is little joy in seeing loss of jobs, etc. it has been the stance of cleveland to be pro-subluxation, so this would be a slight blow to the ICA guys overall. however, with all of the competition within the ranks, palmer is probably laughing about it over morning coffee.

CARICOM-MED
03-07-2011, 06:08 PM
Sadly, another indication of where your profession is heading towards....a state of "Atrophy"....don't get me wrong, I support evidence based chiropractic, however so many of you don't want to move with the times....

Why these (-) changes in the DC profession ??
1. Decrease enrollment in DC colleges
2. Decrease insurance reimbursements
3. Limited Scope
4. Limited Collaboration or inclusion with other health care professions
5. Limited Research supporting effectiveness (beyond non malignant, biomechanical simple lower back pain.)

I wrote how the DC profession can move forward, but, very little has been done in the past 20 years......




One of Cleveland Chiropractic College's campuses is shutting down forever, leaving them with just their Kansas City location. Here is the letter sent out by the president of the college.


From: "Carl ClevelandIII-CCC" <[email protected]>
To: CCCKC Alumni
Subject: Cleveland Chiropractic College of Los Angeles

In a press release earlier today, I announced to the Cleveland - Los Angeles students, faculty and staff, the decision of the Board of Trustees to cease operations and close that campus at the end of summer 2011.

This change will have no effect on Cleveland Chiropractic College – Kansas City .

The decision to close Cleveland Chiropractic College of Los Angeles has been difficult for the Board of Trustees; however, challenging economic conditions and a continuing downward enrollment trend impacting the California chiropractic colleges dictates that this consolidation is necessary.

CCC-LA has a long, spirited history and has graduated thousands of well-trained, successful chiropractors who have gone on to provide care to countless patients. Over these many years, the faculty and staff have made an invaluable contribution to society, the profession, the community and countless families and individuals. We are forever grateful for our employees’ dedicated service to the mission of this institution. We extend our sincerest best wishes for the future to all who work and study here.

Carl S. Cleveland III, DC
President
Cleveland Chiropractic College
Kansas City and Los Angeles

Cleveland Chiropractic College - News (http://www.cleveland.edu/news)



No worries though. Cleveland is a fairly straight school and isn't one I would mind seeing gone.


In the last 10 years, Cleveland's admissions have been cut in half and they have gone from one of the largest chiropractic colleges to one of the smallest. In 2000, they had 300 graduates but in 2009, they were down to only 150. I'm not sure what happened to them but they appear to be a dying institution.

Forsaken38
03-07-2011, 07:48 PM
...don't get me wrong, I support evidence based chiropractic, however so many of you don't want to move with the times....

I agree with you on this, so many older chiros are stuck in the past. That's one of the reasons I went to school there. If I went to National I would not be able to change much as they are pretty much on target. But at a mixer school that has had to close a campus... well I just might be able to make some headway.

I don't know if you read it before, but I said somewhere before that when fear of extinction becomes great enough, change will soon follow. They will change philosophy even more to survive. That is how progress works sometimes. But with that being said UHSADOC, you don't have to keep picking the same scabs over and over again. lol :)

CARICOM-MED
03-07-2011, 07:56 PM
Apologies, if I insulted anyone :)
I surely hope DCs will move with the times and follow the path DOs took 30 years ago, EBM is where we are heading towards.....I predicted that most straight schools will close by 2020, and it is already happening....next thing we will see the ICA buckling down, and perhaps UNIFY with the ACA approach to Chiropractic (mixer) then DRASTIC change in CCE education, no more "subluxation" as the cause of Disease and "adjustments" as cure all... but, manipulation for specific Dx and according to established guidelines...that are evidence based and safe for the public.....

Furthermore, Drugs are here to stay, and DCs with further training in pharmacology and minor surgery perhaps can apply for limited residencies....perhaps compete with the MD/DOs for family medicine and physical medicine (PM&R) residencies ??....think many DCs have good basic science education, but limited in pharm and pathphys

Again, the ENTIRE profession as a WHOLE should want to change, by force or will....:) LOL only time will tell...

Cheers :)



I agree with you on this, so many older chiros are stuck in the past. That's one of the reasons I went to school there. If I went to National I would not be able to change much as they are pretty much on target. But at a mixer school that has had to close a campus... well I just might be able to make some headway.

I don't know if you read it before, but I said somewhere before that when fear of extinction becomes great enough, change will soon follow. They will change philosophy even more to survive. That is how progress works sometimes. But with that being said UHSADOC, you don't have to keep picking the same scabs over and over again. lol :)

AgActual
03-07-2011, 10:16 PM
Decrease enrollment in DC colleges

That isn't entirely true. The major decline in enrollment came from Life University imploding in 2002. Back then they had nearly 25% of all chiropractic students. Today, their enrollment is quite anemic. Most of the other schools are, especially the non-subluxation ones, are either where they have been for many, many years or have had an increase in enrollment.


Limited Scope

The entire musculoskeletal system doesn't seem all that limited to me.


Limited Research supporting effectiveness (beyond non malignant, biomechanical simple lower back pain.)


Well manual manipulation isn't a cure all for MSK conditions, although i think there is good evidence that it works else where other than the low back. However, good chiropractic colleges teach other modalities, like physical therapy, massage therapy, exercise, nutrition, and all of that, to fill in the gaps. A well trained chiropractor can treat musculoskeletal conditions all over the body. Different problems will require the use of different treatment modalities. It is a wonder what those chiropractic colleges that don't focus on subluxations teach these days.

CARICOM-MED
03-08-2011, 05:10 PM
Hence closing schools,
Limited scope, yes, still limited it isn't the MSK system that is limiting, it is the simple conditions you can actually treat, beside acute low back pain that is non malignant, show me the evidence behind chiropractic care, efficacy and safety for other than sprain strain injuries ??? where the standard of care is to refer to OT/PT :), hence why DCs aren't being utilized in hospitals etc...

Limited scope, limited research, limited funding, limited enrollment => limited profession :)
sorry, but that is all true....Again, wish to see the DC profession moving forward, and provide better clinical support...

Cheers :)




That isn't entirely true. The major decline in enrollment came from Life University imploding in 2002. Back then they had nearly 25% of all chiropractic students. Today, their enrollment is quite anemic. Most of the other schools are, especially the non-subluxation ones, are either where they have been for many, many years or have had an increase in enrollment.



The entire musculoskeletal system doesn't seem all that limited to me.



Well manual manipulation isn't a cure all for MSK conditions, although i think there is good evidence that it works else where other than the low back. However, good chiropractic colleges teach other modalities, like physical therapy, massage therapy, exercise, nutrition, and all of that, to fill in the gaps. A well trained chiropractor can treat musculoskeletal conditions all over the body. Different problems will require the use of different treatment modalities. It is a wonder what those chiropractic colleges that don't focus on subluxations teach these days.

AgActual
03-09-2011, 10:44 AM
show me the evidence behind chiropractic care, efficacy and safety for other than sprain strain injuriesYou don't think a chiropractor could handle treating something like a sprained ankle? Do you think a chiropractor would just stare at a muscle strain in someone's leg in utter confusion? I find these claims highly questionable and I do wonder where you are getting this information from.

And who cares if your field's standard practice is to refer to a PT? You guys don't refer to dentists, optometrists, and usually not podiatrists or psychologists. All of these professions survive just fine and I think chiropractic can, and clearly has, survive too.

CARICOM-MED
03-10-2011, 07:16 PM
You just proved my point :)
actually we (MDs) do refer to Dentists, podiatrists and optometrists, most are working in hospital settings, but, not chiropractors, Since DCs are alternative providers, NOT standard of care, so your arguement is irrelevant, and not conclusive.

And :)
Most Medical schools / universities DO indeed teach aside from medicine, dentistry, optometry, physiotherapy and podiatry, but NOT chiropractic :)

Cheers,



You don't think a chiropractor could handle treating something like a sprained ankle? Do you think a chiropractor would just stare at a muscle strain in someone's leg in utter confusion? I find these claims highly questionable and I do wonder where you are getting this information from.

And who cares if your field's standard practice is to refer to a PT? You guys don't refer to dentists, optometrists, and usually not podiatrists or psychologists. All of these professions survive just fine and I think chiropractic can, and clearly has, survive too.

AgActual
03-10-2011, 07:46 PM
Actually we (MDs) do refer to Dentists, podiatrists and optometrists, most are working in hospital settings, but, not chiropractors,Really? How often would you say MD's refer patients to dentists? And how often are they referring patients to podiatrists instead of dermatologists or orthopedic surgeons? What about optometrists instead of opthalmologists? And I know pretty well that you MDs would much rather refer a patient to a psychiatrist instead of psychologist.

These other professions, like DCs, might get the occasional referral from an MD but I have found that you guys are far more likely to refer patients to other MD's, like the ophthalmologist or the dermatologist, instead of the optometrist or the podiatrist. I think you might be overstating the how much dentists, podiatrists, and psychologist rely on MDs and DO's for patients.

My point is, these other professions seem to get along with only marginal contact with MDs and chiropractors are the same way. Surprisingly, parts of the health care world do function without the oversight of MDs.

CARICOM-MED
03-13-2011, 02:05 PM
Standard of Care vs. Alternative Medicine
Nope, we do interact with them, unlike DCs, these professions are part of the standard of care, and in most universities we even share classes with them, at basic science level, most MDs that I know refer to Psychologists when warranted, Dentists (Any dental work), optometrist (for prescriptive eye glasses/contacts and basic vision screenings, however for serious pathology that require surgical or medical intervention you are right, opthamologist.) and podiatrist , pharmacist, but rather refer to OT/PT than DC :)

The latter are all part of standard of care, and YES, collaboration is recommended at all levels, however not the case with DCs. (considered CAM)


As you know most Universities have OT/PT progams but no DC program (perceived as unscientific.)

Comparison of Standard of Care Vs. Alternative and CAM

Example: check out the list of programs in this UNIVERSITY
http://www.midwestern.edu/Programs_and_Admission.html (http://www.midwestern.edu/Programs_and_Admission.html)
Podiatry (DPM)
Pharmacy (Pharm.D)
Psychology (PhD)
Medicine (DO)
Dentistry (DMD)
PA / NP
Physiotherapy (DPT) & OT (DOT)
Optometry (OD)

All are part of standard of care :)

Versus, This University !!
Academics (http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=4)
Chiropractic (DC)
Naturopathy (ND)
Acupuncture (MSc.Ac)
Massage (MT)
Oriental Medicine (MSOM)

All considered ALTERNATIVE and NOT standard of care !!!
The above was a comparison of 2 University one of which is considered standard of care, the other is more alternative based. (nothing wrong with that, simply not considered to be standard of care.)


I no longer wish to continue this discussion, as clearly some may have limited experience or knowledge of the education and works of health care...

Cheers :)




Really? How often would you say MD's refer patients to dentists? And how often are they referring patients to podiatrists instead of dermatologists or orthopedic surgeons? What about optometrists instead of opthalmologists? And I know pretty well that you MDs would much rather refer a patient to a psychiatrist instead of psychologist.

These other professions, like DCs, might get the occasional referral from an MD but I have found that you guys are far more likely to refer patients to other MD's, like the ophthalmologist or the dermatologist, instead of the optometrist or the podiatrist. I think you might be overstating the how much dentists, podiatrists, and psychologist rely on MDs and DO's for patients.

My point is, these other professions seem to get along with only marginal contact with MDs and chiropractors are the same way. Surprisingly, parts of the health care world do function without the oversight of MDs.

AgActual
03-13-2011, 03:04 PM
I no longer wish to continue this discussion, as clearly some may have limited experience or knowledge of the education and works of health care...I do find these claims very difficult to believe, this idea that dentists and optometrists receive a significant number of their patients from MD referrals, sounds like even a majority from your account of things, and it still seems that you are exaggerating the interconnectiveness of the standard care referral network to make chiropractic seem like an extremely risky to get into and overall very isolated profession. Certainly referrals among the various health care fields in common, I am not denying that, I just doubt that cooperation and the scope of such referrals is to the extent that you claim. That is my view and I guess we have to leave it at that.

Well old friend, hopefully someday you and I can have a discussion about chiropractic again, I do quite enjoy them. I'll be around if you feel like talking.

CARICOM-MED
03-15-2011, 02:11 PM
LOL, ok no worries, nothing against Chiropractic, I think it is a great nobel profession of the healing arts, if practiced scientifically and ethically....
BTW: This week I collaborated with 3 DMDs on the issue of Bisphosphonates, and mandibular necrosis, I also collaborated with several optometrists regarding few of my diabetic patients, DM2, that have Diabetic Retinopathy....and this month, referred 2 PTSD patients to Psychologists....I know most MDs practice the same way, I actually DO REFER to DCs, (and to OT/PTs), BUT, I can speak on behalf of my colleagues that rather refer to OT/PT instead...I know in residency and medical school we are taught to refer to OT/PT but, not to DCs....again, not my cup of tea, I am very open minded, and met, and was treated by MANY great DCs, even while in medical school, the DCs often fixed my acute torticollis, and low back pain, due to prolonged studying :)

Cheers :)



I do find these claims very difficult to believe, this idea that dentists and optometrists receive a significant number of their patients from MD referrals, sounds like even a majority from your account of things, and it still seems that you are exaggerating the interconnectiveness of the standard care referral network to make chiropractic seem like an extremely risky to get into and overall very isolated profession. Certainly referrals among the various health care fields in common, I am not denying that, I just doubt that cooperation and the scope of such referrals is to the extent that you claim. That is my view and I guess we have to leave it at that.

Well old friend, hopefully someday you and I can have a discussion about chiropractic again, I do quite enjoy them. I'll be around if you feel like talking.

AgActual
03-15-2011, 11:25 PM
Well it is certainly nice to hear that you have such collegial interactions with professionals from other health care fields. My personal experience, both as a patient and when I was in the world of psychology, taught me otherwise but maybe I and the people i knew just had bad experiences. But doc, if you say that isn't the way things are for most of health care then I will yield to your greater level of experience and take what you say as the truth.

However, from what I have seen in chiropractic, both with those with experience and recent graduates, that most do just fine. I don't know the percentage of graduates from my school that end up with with MDs or get involved with referrals (we are highly encouraged to do that though) but I have witnessed very few people from National doing poorly once out of school. I know a few people that ended up falling flat on their faces, unfortunately, but most ended up with good jobs and enjoy what they do. Maybe that isn't the case at some other schools, i dont really know, but results from National seemed to be very positive. From what I have seen and experienced, it isn't a bad career.



LOL, ok no worries, nothing against Chiropractic, I think it is a great nobel profession of the healing arts, if practiced scientifically and ethically....
BTW: This week I collaborated with 3 DMDs on the issue of Bisphosphonates, and mandibular necrosis, I also collaborated with several optometrists regarding few of my diabetic patients, DM2, that have Diabetic Retinopathy....and this month, referred 2 PTSD patients to Psychologists....I know most MDs practice the same way, I actually DO REFER to DCs, (and to OT/PTs), BUT, I can speak on behalf of my colleagues that rather refer to OT/PT instead...I know in residency and medical school we are taught to refer to OT/PT but, not to DCs....again, not my cup of tea, I am very open minded, and met, and was treated by MANY great DCs, even while in medical school, the DCs often fixed my acute torticollis, and low back pain, due to prolonged studying :)

Cheers :)







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