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AgActual
02-23-2011, 06:27 PM
I think most of us would agree that chiropractic is a rather vaguely defined field. We know what it is good for and what is isn't good for, but what is chiropractic legitimate place in health care? Since there are several fields that are similar to the legitimate side of chiropractic, I have a proposal on where we draw the line between the fields.

-Chiropractic=DC's should move into primary care, nonsurgical treatment of muscloskeletal conditions. The conditions they treat should be relatively minor problems of the musculoskeletal system. Conditions like acute low back pain, muscle strains, sprains, disc injuries, tendinitis, torticollis, plantars fasciitis, etc. If you have such a condition, your first stop should be the (properly trained) chiropractor, not your family doctor. Treatment modalities should include manipulation, physical therapy, massage therapy, nutrition and nutritional supplements, maybe some acupuncture, and prescribing of OTC and potentially some limited pharmaceuticals to help with the treatment of MSK conditions. Of course that would mean completely abandoning subluxations and treatment of non-MSK disorders.

-Physical therapists=PTs should focus on non medical, non surgical treatment of major NMSK dysfunction and post-surgical rehabilitation.

-Orthopedic surgeons=This field should provide the main medical and surgical treatment of MSK conditions.

-Osteopaths and Medical Doctors=These fields should largely abandon the treatment of anything muscular and skeletal related and focus their energy on treating internal disorders, such infection, diabetes, cancer, heart disease, etc.


There we go. Everyone has their place and their expertise, no one is stepping on anyone else's toes. It is a perfect system and you should all praise me for it (and ignore the fact that i have no place for physiatrists). :cool:

haishahlehaish
03-22-2011, 06:21 PM
good one. WHY would you limit our scope as it already is shrinking!

75% of chronic internal conditions can be managed or co-managed by a dietitian or chiropractic internist, which is an expanding field. Family chiropractic medicine already has residency at NUHS and an advanced practice MSc, established with drug prescription (for New Mexico). There are specialties in Chiropractic already that are very well qualified in their respective fields. We ought to improve in their qualifications and prestige instead. Let's nourish what we do have and increase from there. MSc in chiropractic rehab, which is very in-depth in rehab.
Osteopaths step on everybody's scope already. Why should the chiros back off if trained properly by accredited programs.

I propose, primary care and/or co-management in whatever a qualified doctor of chiropractic is certified legally to do.

1: DCs as diagnosticians. Any pain, any time to be sent for proper TX and/or referral.

2: DCs as CONSERVATIVE TX primary care takers of conditions according to the specialty of the DC.
- when in need of drugs and surgery, the DC makes the appropriate referral.

DCs as conservative TX specialists for any condition and co-management in any condition with other specialists.
See? we all work together with all professions, but we are the conservative non-invasive treatment specialists. Yet the level of complexity of a condition can be managed according to the level of training of the Dr. eg all general dentists can do orthodontics, but orthodontists are qualified to excel at it. With greater power, greater responsibilities.

thebonecrusher10
03-22-2011, 07:21 PM
@AgActual: Agree 110% EXCEPT I think chiros should do very minor invasive procedures. That is things like sutures, lancing. All is, we are in total accord.

thebonecrusher10
03-22-2011, 07:28 PM
@haishahlehaish: I disagree quite a bit with you. I think the days of chiros with things like DABCO, DABCI, CCSP, et cetera are soon to be a thing of the past (mostly). The only exception will be DACBR. I think DACBRs are in a fairly stable field.

Instead of more chiropractic specialties, I think we'll see DC's either pursuing an advanced practice degree like National is offering, or they will instead try to practice just as a straight chiropractor. I think the latter group will quickly realize the benefits of advanced practice and bail from "straight" practice.

I am very thankful that a place like National is taking the lead on this. If I were going to do chiro school over (which I wouldnt), I would of went to National anyday over my alma mater of Palmer Iowa. The only reason I didnt even consider National was because it's in that zoo of a city we call Chicago.

AgActual
03-22-2011, 10:02 PM
The only reason I didnt even consider National was because it's in that zoo of a city we call Chicago.Did you actually come out to see the campus? It isn't quite in Chicago. It is in Lombard, IL, which is a town of about 40,000 and around a 25-30 mile drive away from Chicago. There are a few tall buildings here and some large roads, but most it is subdivisions and strip malls. It is more suburban than a city. Not really all that face paced or crowded.

khiro
03-23-2011, 07:49 AM
being raised "rural" i could not imagine going to national. so i ended up going to pasadena,tx (houston, the 4th largest city in US). i could have gone to palmer 8 months before going to TCC but I woke up in Dec and it was cold in florida, looked at the weather in Iowa and said NO WAY. thats right, i decided on where to go primarily on the weather!!

thebonecrusher10
03-23-2011, 10:09 AM
Yes, been up to Chicago and Lombard many times. I hate being that close to a city and all the problems that go with it. I grew up in a town of 35,000 with no city of size unless you drive a couple hours.

NUHS-AUC
03-31-2011, 07:22 PM
Doesnt matter where you went to Chiro school, also went to NUHS, good scientific DC program, however, many DC students there learn AK and biased techniques, regardless, I would say that at least 50% of the profession resort to unscientific and quackary...I had to do some serious soul searching, and after several months, took KAPLAN course review, took the MCAT and applied to AUC, was the best decision of my life...glad I'm out of the DC profession, some of my classmates still work as POOR ASSOCIATES earning under 50K per year.. while I'm in my third year general surgery, GS is HARD, lots of hours, but mentally stimulating for a change, and my career only looks brighter....


Yes, been up to Chicago and Lombard many times. I hate being that close to a city and all the problems that go with it. I grew up in a town of 35,000 with no city of size unless you drive a couple hours.

thebonecrusher10
04-01-2011, 10:30 PM
@NUHS-AUC: I think you missed the point of the last few comments. We were simply talking about a personal preference of urban versus rural living is all.

AgActual
04-02-2011, 12:38 PM
Well it certainly is nice to hear that you found your calling and are successful. However, you have been saying that chiro students interested in scientific practice should just go to med school (i believe you said that in one of posts). My question is, why is that the way to go? Chiropractic and allopathic medicine are not the same thing. Isn't saying "just go to med school" the same as "why not just become a dental hygienist?" or "you should go to law school instead."?

Practicing chiropractic in a legitimate fashion and being an MD are two very different careers. Why is med school the best route for someone that wants to practice responsible chiropractic and not just going to one of the good chiropractic colleges?



Doesnt matter where you went to Chiro school, also went to NUHS, good scientific DC program, however, many DC students there learn AK and biased techniques, regardless, I would say that at least 50% of the profession resort to unscientific and quackary...I had to do some serious soul searching, and after several months, took KAPLAN course review, took the MCAT and applied to AUC, was the best decision of my life...glad I'm out of the DC profession, some of my classmates still work as POOR ASSOCIATES earning under 50K per year.. while I'm in my third year general surgery, GS is HARD, lots of hours, but mentally stimulating for a change, and my career only looks brighter....

NUHS-AUC
04-02-2011, 02:07 PM
Re: If you can you should attempt to: MD>DO>DDS>DPM>PA>NP>Anything else
If you had to invest 4 years consider the latter order, then you may thing about DC/OD/PT/ND/RN etc...
When I graduated from DC school, I had 150K in student loans, and the best job opportunity that I found was 35K per year, working for a rehab group, think they were called ChiroOne ? with high cost of living in Chicago, I would have never paid back my loans, was somewhat depressed about that..In anycase, had several interviews, hated the contracts I reviewed, and started to "Question" the chiropractic profession at that time.....talked to few MDs and one DO, all advised me that it would be MUCH faster to pay back MD/DO student loans, first R1 cheque is at least 50K per year....unlike DC, I get MUCH more respect being an MD, I already have a position lined up in a major chicago hospital, starting income is as a GS FAR exceed what I would have ever made as a DC in 6 years (considering continued to work as an associate or Independent contractor etc....)....and it is MUCH more stimulating to me, than just crack spines all day, or compete with PTs for PI work (auto accidents or workers comp.) getting paid 20$ for HMOs per visit if you are lucky...I know, cause I'm still in touch with some of my graduating friends / class mates from National, many dropped out of the profession all together, some remained in the medical field, and work for some orthopedic group, others sold their soul to the devil and are "DC Associate slaves" running unethical practices....SADLY, Nothing changed in the profession or in the school, since I graduated, another indication of where the profession is going.....I agree if Chiro is your calling, then stick with it, wasn;t mine at all, and lost ANY interest in it......SAD, cause I believe I got a REALLY great training in basic sciences at NUHS (years 1-2), but, Very POOR clinical experience (years 3-4), AND, once you graduate you can't use ANY of it, and NO ONE will hire you....Hospitals and major medical groups would much rather hire a PA or NP to do their slave work, than a DC...

Good luck to you all, I wish nothing but good future to the chiropractic profession, HOWEVER, from my perspective at the moment and sharing colleagues input, there is minimal to no collaboration.....and DCs insist that want nothing to do with meds or surgeries....especially the straight ones, so I totally AGREE with UHSADOC on that point....



Well it certainly is nice to hear that you found your calling and are successful. However, you have been saying that chiro students interested in scientific practice should just go to med school (i believe you said that in one of posts). My question is, why is that the way to go? Chiropractic and allopathic medicine are not the same thing. Isn't saying "just go to med school" the same as "why not just become a dental hygienist?" or "you should go to law school instead."?

Practicing chiropractic in a legitimate fashion and being an MD are two very different careers. Why is med school the best route for someone that wants to practice responsible chiropractic and not just going to one of the good chiropractic colleges?

AgActual
04-02-2011, 09:32 PM
When I graduated from DC school, I had 150K in student loans, and the best job opportunity that I found was 35K per year,

Did you actually graduate from National with a DC? I thought you said you only went for 6 months. And if that is the case, how did you get a bachelors in 2002 and a doctorate just 2 years later?

NUHS-AUC
04-02-2011, 09:46 PM
Yes, graduated with a DC degree, after graduation with DC waited for 6 months, didn't find a job as a DC, in those 6 months, I applied to AUC....BSc was in mid way after basic sciences believe it was end of 5th tri..?? think all of the 10 tris took me just over 3 years....


Did you actually graduate from National with a DC? I thought you said you only went for 6 months. And if that is the case, how did you get a bachelors in 2002 and a doctorate just 2 years later?

AgActual
04-02-2011, 09:59 PM
Yes, graduated with a DC degree, after graduation with DC waited for 6 months, didn't find a job as a DC, in those 6 months, I applied to AUC....BSc was in mid way after basic sciences believe it was end of 5th tri..?? think all of the 10 tris took me just over 3 years....

Ah, got ya.

And good thing you didn't work at chiro one. They are extremely shady a certain business professor at National (can you guess which one?) once went on a 40 minute rant about them. Every chiropractor does free spinal screenings at the mall, every patient gets the same exact treatment, and I know someone that worked as a receptionist at a chrio one for about a day, and said one DC saw 45 patients in one hour.

It is a scam.

NUHS-AUC
04-02-2011, 10:04 PM
Yikes...things like that give DCs bad rep....Hope the CCE will work on expanding your scope....regardless, even during internship at National I wasnt happy, nothing like my experience at AUC, and rotating in hospitals....seeing more pathology, and much higher # volume of patients....no comparison...from acute to chronic....and not just MSK :)



Ah, got ya.

And good thing you didn't work at chiro one. They are extremely shady a certain business professor at National (can you guess which one?) once went on a 40 minute rant about them. Every chiropractor does free spinal screenings at the mall, every patient gets the same exact treatment, and I know someone that worked as a receptionist at a chrio one for about a day, and said one DC saw 45 patients in one hour.

It is a scam.







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