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AgActual
12-28-2010, 05:56 PM
Since I am bored today and because our other discussions have grown stale, in my opinion, I have decided to make a thread looking at some of the commonly held myths about chiropractic and why they are bull pooh pooh. After all, this is a forum for prospective chiropractic students and since we have spent most of our time discussing chiropractic's pitfalls, perhaps it is wise to have a thread looking at the problems with this field that do not actually exist or no longer exist. It is important for prospective students to have a realistic depiction of this profession, and not one that is unrealistically positive or negative.

So, here are some commonly held beliefs about chiropractic that I have found are nonsense.


Lets start with the latest one we have discussed

1. Chiropractors have high student loan default rates, which proves it is a risky profession to get into.

-While it is true that chiropractors have highest student loan default rate of any first profession health care field, the actual rate is quite small, at about 1.1%. By comparison, dentists have about a 0.2% default rate, medical doctors have about a .05%, podiatrists about 0.8%, and the default rate for all student loans (health care or otherwise) was about 9% in 2009. So while it certainly is higher for chiropractors, it isn't a problem for about 99% of DC graduates and becoming a DC would lower your chances of defaulting than if you were to just stick with a bachelors.

The Student Loan Mess: Why Chiropractic Is in Trouble (http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/loan.html)

Graph of National Student Loan Default Rates (http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/defaultmanagement/defaultrates.html)

2. Chiropractors make much less than other health care professionals.

-Chiropractors do make less than most medical specialists, however, the average rate of pay is nearly the same for most other health care professions.

Here are the pay distributions for various health care professions.

Chiropractic


http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9894/chiro.png

Clinical Psychologist

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/9805/clinicalpsy.png

Dentist

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2232/dentist.png

Family Physician (MD or DO)

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5518/familymd.png

Nurse Practitioner

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/9207/76828081.png

Physician's Assistant

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8621/assiso.png


Optometrist

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/2913/optom.png

Physical Therapist (DPT)

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8743/physicalthe.png

Podiatrist

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1683/podh.png

http://swz.salary.com/docs/salwizhtmls/methodology.html


3. Most chiropractors do not believe in vaccines.


-Chiropractors were once anti-vaccination advocates but these days, most chiropractors believe in vaccinations. Most surveys on this subject are rather old. In 1995, about 37% of American chiropractors were opposed to vaccinations and in 2002, about 27% of Canadian chiropractors were opposed. Many chiropractors are still opposed to vaccination and the rate is too high, however, it is certainly not the majority.

Attitudes on immunization: a survey of American ch... [J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 1994 Nov-Dec] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7884327)

Attitudes toward vaccination: a survey of Canadian... [CMAJ. 2002] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12074119)


4. Only 42% of chiropractic students enter chiropractic college with a bachelorís degree.

-A commonly used reference which shows that chiropractic students are poorly educated comes from chirobase.org, in the form of this table.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7264/numberst.png

However, many people fail to realize that this table is from 1964 (chirobase posted it in 1999 but it was created by the AMA in the early 60's). The percentage is likely far higher these days, with several chiropractic colleges now requiring bachelorís degrees for admission. The other schools require at least 3 years of undergraduate study.


5. Chiropractic students only go to school for 18 months.

-Early chiropractors were able to earn their DC in about a year and a half, however, all chiropractic programs since the late 1940ís have been 4 years.

CHIROPRACTIC EDUCATION & TRAINING (http://www.dcdoctor.com/pages/rightpages_allaboutchiro/education.html)

6. Chiropractors do not have residency programs.

-While residencies in are optional in chiropractic, and although not as intensive as medical residencies, there are numerous programs in chiropractic, which lead to specialization in areas such as orthopedics, sports medicine, neurology, physical therapy, and nutrition.

Google (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=chiropractic+diplomate+programs&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=f&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=83f87efc6f926f13)

7. Chiropractic school is more expensive than med school.

-Chiropractic school, med school, and really any other first professional program costs about $85,000 in tuition and the average debt upon leaving these schools is around $150,000. Earning a DC does not cost anymore than getting a doctorate in any other health care field.

AMA - Medical Student Debt (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/medical-student-section/advocacy-policy/medical-student-debt.shtml)

Tuition and Fees - Logan College of Chiropractic and University Programs (http://www.logan.edu/SubPages.aspx?pID=170&mhID=261&shID=163&splpID=14)

New York Chiropractic College :: Financial Aid (http://www.nycc.edu/Admissions_financialAid.htm)

Chiropractic Cost of Attendance | Life University (http://www.life.edu/content/chiropractic-cost-attendance)

Financial Aid: Tuition (http://www.midwestern.edu/Programs_and_Admission/Financial_Aid/Tuition.html)

http://www.nycpm.edu/tuition.pdf

http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/documents/MedRatesBSClinical0910final.pdf


8. Chiropractors are not trained in medical diagnosis.

-16 of the 17 chiropractic schools teach medical diagnosis. The only hold out is Sherman College of Straight Chiropractic. However, some schools are considered to be better than others on this issue.


9. There is a high risk of stroke with chiropractic manipulations.

-It is true that patients have suffered strokes after receiving a manipulation in their cervical spine, such events are very rare, and thought to occur in about 1 out of every 1,100,000 manipulations of the neck. There are only a handful of cases where strokes have been a direct result of chiropractic manipulations.

Coulter ID, Hurwitz EL, Adams AH, et al. The Appropriateness of Manipulation and Mobilization of the Cervical Spine. Santa Monica, CA; RAND; 1996.


10. Chiropractors only know how to perform spinal manipulation.


-Chiropractors actually learn many different treatments modalities, including physical therapy, massage, nutrition, herbalism, heat and cryotherapy, and exercise therapy. Some are also trained in minor surgery and can prescribe certain medications.

D.C. Curriculum (http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=45)

http://uws.edu/Academic_Programs/Doctor_of_Chiropractic/DC_Program_Curriculum.pdf

Doctor of Chiropractic - Course List (http://www.txchiro.edu/academics/doctor_of_chiro/CourseDirectoryTemplate.aspx?LanguageCD=en-US&ItemKey=7367&pb=y)

NUHS Prepares DCs for Limited Prescription Powers in NM (http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=1363)

Chiropractic Specialty Certification - Minor Surgery and/or Proctology - Oregon Licenses, Permits and Registrations (http://licenseinfo.oregon.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=license_seng&link_item_id=14154)

11. Chiropractors believe they can cure conditions like cancer or diabetes with spinal manipulation.

-Very few chiropractors today claim they can treat serious conditions with spinal manipulation and in many states, it is illegal for them to say that they can. However, many chiropractors do claim they can help with some of the symptoms of serious illnesses, such as pain management for cancer patients and nutritional advice for diabetics.

Chiropractic Care at Cancer Treatment Centers of America (CTCA) (http://www.cancercenter.com/complementary-alternative-medicine/chiropractic-care.cfm)

This is a random chriopractor's website, however, it is based on commonly used template that chiropractors use to make their clinic's website. On the left side, there is a section "We May Help You With", which shows the conditions that most broad based chiropractors believe they can treat with manipulation or other therapies.

Chiropractic Acupuncture Massage - Encinitas - Carlsbad - Rancho Santa Fe - Whiplash Accident :: Home (http://www.drchadpatrick.com/)


12. Chiropractic education does not involve learning basic sciences.

-All chiropractic colleges in the U.S. require students take the same basic sciences as most other health care programs. All chiropractic school also have fully functional physiology, biochemistry, and anatomy labs (these include dissections performed by students on all major system in the human body), and this has largely been the case for decades.

Canadian Professors Visit Three Chiropractic Schools (1962) (http://chirobase.org/03Edu/1962visit.html)

http://www.cleveland.edu/media/cms_page_media/158/model10.pdf

Michael Tiso - LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeltiso)

Parker College of Chiropractic | About Parker | Parker Overview | The Facilities (http://www.parkercc.edu/ContentPrint.aspx?id=475)

National University of Health Sciences - Graduate Guide School Details (http://www.graduateguide.com/National-University-Health-Sciences.htm)


13. 50% of chiropractors fail out of the field in the first 5 years.

This is a myth i have seen around the internet and finally found the source of it about 6 months ago. This "statistic" is spread by the people at chriotalk.com and is based on a poll they took of their forum members that left the field of chiropractic. It is in no way a scientific or representative poll.

Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum - Student Loan Default Rate - Not bad (http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=exdcs&thread=4856)

14. Chiropractors are paid much less early in their careers when compared to other health care professions.

-The typical chiropractic associate (a newly graduated DC working for an established chiropractic practice) makes about $40,000, which isn't great. However, if you compare that to a medical doctor in the equivalent stage of their career (medical resident), the pay is roughly the same. Just about every recently graduated doctor, whether they are a chiropractor, medical doctor, podiatrist, dentist, etc, makes a fraction of what established members of their profession are making. The low starting pay is not unique to chiropractic.

Answers.com - Medical resident salary (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Medical_resident_salary)

What Is a Chiropractic Associate? (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-chiropractic-associate.htm)





Well that is all I have for now. I am sure I will think of more eventually but this should generate enough discussion in the mean time.

CARICOM-MED
12-29-2010, 02:55 PM
GOOD POST :)

Perhaps you can re-write it and simply summarize the facts of the Chiropractic profession with supportive evidence, instead of "myths"

For instance:

Average DC income is 120K per year
Evidence ?

Current DC Professional Program requirements:
BSc with Pre-reqs (Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Biology, Mathematics, Physics & English)
with supporting Evidence of current requirement in top 5 colleges

DCs conservatively treat most NMSK conditions, and no longer focus on subluxation detection & correction

etc...

AgActual
12-29-2010, 04:10 PM
Well there are a few more things that I still want to discuss, such joint manipulation being useful for conditions other than low back pain and manipulation on children :shock:, but those will take more time to find sources. I also want to find more sources to back up the information I already presented. I have found some people are VERY skeptical of chiropractic. I want to attempt to make my argument as solid as possible.

And I suppose we can also look at some of the positives of chiropractic instead of simply shooting down myths or talking about the actual problems. Perhaps a different thread for that though....


GOOD POST :)

Perhaps you can re-write it and simply summarize the facts of the Chiropractic profession with supportive evidence, instead of "myths"

For instance:

Average DC income is 120K per year
Evidence ?

Current DC Professional Program requirements:
BSc with Pre-reqs (Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Biology, Mathematics, Physics & English)
with supporting Evidence of current requirement in top 5 colleges

DCs conservatively treat most NMSK conditions, and no longer focus on subluxation detection & correction

etc...

houmd
12-30-2010, 01:13 PM
hey mods can we make this a sticky?

CARICOM-MED
12-30-2010, 05:18 PM
Sticky ? what does it mean ? :)


hey mods can we make this a sticky?

AgActual
12-30-2010, 06:03 PM
Sticky ? what does it mean ? :)

It would mean that this thread would be permanently stuck at the top of the first page, even if people are no longer replying to it. It is done to make sure that threads with important information (;)) are easy to find.

CARICOM-MED
01-01-2011, 04:15 PM
lol, ok :)

Forsaken38
01-01-2011, 04:31 PM
13. 50% of chiropractors fail out of the field in the first 5 years.

This is a myth i have seen around the internet and finally found the source of it about 6 months ago. This "statistic" is spread by the people at chriotalk.com and is based on a poll they took of their forum members that left the field of chiropractic. It is in no way a scientific or representative poll.

Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum - Student Loan Default Rate - Not bad (http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=exdcs&thread=4856)




I actually read the whole thread on Chirotalk. I thought it was hillarious that ***** Botnick DC quotes himself in his sig. Who does that? Idk, maybe it was just me. Great post AgActual.

AgActual
01-02-2011, 08:32 PM
I actually read the whole thread on Chirotalk. I thought it was hillarious that ***** Botnick DC quotes himself in his sig. Who does that? Idk, maybe it was just me. Great post AgActual.

Yeah, if you read Botnick's story, it sounds like a man that fell flat on his face once he graduated chiropractic school and blames everyone but himself. He is the ultimate victim and his only failing was being too trusting of chiropractors. It is one of the best sob stories i have ever read. Here it is, if you haven't seen it

Why I Quit Chiropractic (http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/botnick.html)


The people at chirotalk are bitter and petty. There are numerous gems at that site, such as the discussion from a few years back where they claimed chiropractic would be dead by 2010, there was their claim that most chiropractors end up working minimum wage jobs, like flipping burgers at McDonald's, and my all time favorite, some chiropractors encourage people to engage in cannibalism.

It is all a good read but in the end, it is clearly just a half dozen failed chiropractors out for revenge because they couldn't cut it...in chiropractic.

AgActual
01-03-2011, 11:22 PM
Here is more proof to show that number 11., chiropractors claiming that they can cure cancer and other serious medical conditions, isn't true.

This is information I found on the website for one of the largest chiropractic clinic chains in the country. They typically are more on the conservative/straight side of chiropractic.

Here is what they have to say about cancer.

"Can chiropractic care provide any benefit to a person diagnosed with Cancer? The clinical studies have proven that yes it can. One of the main reasons why people with cancer use chiropractic therapy is to help control pain, headaches and tension. There is some scientific evidence to suggest that chiropractic may help relieve pain, especially headaches and back pain. But there is no evidence to suggest that it (chiropractic care) helps prevent, treat or cure cancer....chiropractic may improve the quality of a cancer patientís life."

http://www.chiroone.net/commonConditions/cancer.html (http://www.chiroone.net/commonConditions/cancer.htmlHere)

Here is what they offer in terms of diabetes

"For more information regarding preventative measures see your local Chiro One Wellness Centers Chiropractic Physician"

Those unethical bastards! Claiming to be able to help prevent type 2 diabetes by counseling patients on proper diet and exercise. Will the quackery never end?!

Seriously, nothing about curing diabetes or treating it, just about prevention. Not that bad, huh?

Common Conditions - Chiro One Wellness Centers (http://www.chiroone.net/commonConditions/diabetes.html)


While they certainly are off base on some issues, such as claiming to help boost people's immune systems to help prevent colds or the flu (in fact joint manipulations have been shown to temporary suppress immune system activity, so using them as an immune system boost is probably a bad idea) the idea that most chiropractors claim to be able to cure serious medical conditions is unsubstantiated here in the 21st century. Most of the time, what you will probably see are chiropractors saying that they can help with some scientifically demonstrated symptom management and prevention of serious medical conditions, which is seems to be quite a useful service, in my opinion.

May be chiropractors aren't as evil/incompetent as some people might claim?

studentDC
01-16-2011, 02:43 PM
[QUOTE=AgActual;1337637][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]
Lets start with the latest one we have discussed

1. Chiropractors have high student loan default rates, which proves it is a risky profession to get into.

-While it is true that chiropractors have highest student loan default rate of any first profession health care field, the actual rate is quite small, at about 1.1%. By comparison, dentists have about a 0.2% default rate, medical doctors have about a .05%, podiatrists about 0.8%, and the default rate for all student loans (health care or otherwise) was about 9% in 2009. So while it certainly is higher for chiropractors, it isn't a problem for about 99% of DC graduates and becoming a DC would lower your chances of defaulting than if you were to just stick with a bachelors.

The Student Loan Mess: Why Chiropractic Is in Trouble (http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/loan.html)

Graph of National Student Loan Default Rates (http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/defaultmanagement/defaultrates.html)

Hi, thanks for sharing the stats. I'm very curious as to where you got the numbers like 1.1% default rate. I wasn't able to find in through the links you shared. Thanks!


2. Chiropractors make much less than other health care professionals.

-Chiropractors do make less than most medical specialists, however, the average rate of pay is nearly the same for most other health care professions.

I really think you should get better sources for these figures. The median salary for chiropractors is $66K, not $13.8K. Chiropractors (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm)
Be aware that the mean salary on the BLS site is a figure from Chiro Econ which only surveyed about 500 chiros...of 50,000 practicing chiros - i.e. very strong response bias.

AgActual
01-16-2011, 07:35 PM
Hi, thanks for sharing the stats. I'm very curious as to where you got the numbers like 1.1% default rate. I wasn't able to find in through the links you shared. ThanksIt is just based off of the 2002 default rate numbers. Just divided that by 70,000, which was the number of practicing chiropractors back then. As you said, the numbers are tough to find, so this is probably about as accurate as you are ever going to get but I am reasonably confident that it is in the ballpark. The only thing I am unsure of is if that number is yearly default rates or lifetime default rate. Either way, the comparison between chiropractors and other professions is the same, which was the point I was trying to make. People say it is way higher for chiropractors that other health care professions, which seems to take the real numbers out of context and makes it seem as if chiropractic is a risky field to get into, when the odds of defaulting about 1/10th that of all college graduates.


I really think you should get better sources for these figuresWe have had this debate before on this forum. The average really depends on the criteria of figuring out the typical chiropractic salary. I think we showed that some sources look at all chiropractors, whether they are practicing full time, those working as associates, those working at teachers, those that are retired, those that are unemployed, and some sources look just at those working as full time physicians. Additionally, it is often pointed out that the pay of associates really skews the numbers downward and if you look at the pay of those that are established in the field, the averages are closer to the $140,000 level. And you also need to take into account location. For example, the southern U.S., pay is far lower because of over saturation of the market, while it is much higher in the south west, western states, and midwest. The numbers I presented are from suburban chicago. I think of that as being the more typical place to practice and not skewed because of a saturated market place or greatly restricted scope, which you will find in much of the Northeast.

There is a range which can vary greatly depending on which situation one finds them self in but the one that i think most people are interested in is what the full time practitioner is making. People can go with any source they like but it is important to realize how broad of a net their source is casting to figure out the typical pay. Do we want to know the pay distributions of full time, practicing chiropractors or the median salary for everyone who can be called a chiropractor, in the country? I would argue the former is more useful when assessing chiropractic as a career.

studentDC
01-16-2011, 09:22 PM
It is just based off of the 2002 default rate numbers. Just divided that by 70,000, which was the number of practicing chiropractors back then.

Shouldn't default rate to date = cumulative total # of defaulted loans/cumulative total # of loans taken out?
I don't see how the total number of practitioners have to do with it. Can you elaborate please?

I'm a current student at SCUHS. California is probably the most saturated state. Here are the chiro density maps CHIROWEB | Chiropractic Density Maps (http://www.chiroweb.com/list/info/densitymap.html)
It's true that income is dependent on where you practice. However, BLS stats allow for good comparison to other professions, because the same survey methods are applied and each occupation is subject to survey criteria of part-time/full time & geographical distribution. The figures should be authoritative because they are likely based on income taxes (assuming that chiropractors do their taxes properly...because so many practices are cash based now)

If new grads are outliers, they will only skew the mean, not the median. (if there's anything I learned from my undergrad stat course, it's this). As long as the large majority surveyed are practicing for more than 3 years, the median is a representative figure of the industry average.

AgActual
01-17-2011, 12:02 AM
cumulative total # of defaulted loans/cumulative total # of loans taken out?Well we know the number of defaults is around 800 and that there were about 70,000 practitioners around the time of the newest numbers we have. I bet nearly all of those 70,000 took out loans. So we know the default rate and we can roughly guess the number with loans. I don't see the problem here.


If new grads are outliers, they will only skew the mean, not the median. (if there's anything I learned from my undergrad stat course, it's this). As long as the large majority surveyed are practicing for more than 3 years, the median is a representative figure of the industry average. You are correct is saying the median is not too affected by outliers but the assumption that associates are a small enough group to be considered an outlier is incorrect. Most chiropractors spend several years in associate positions and the schools right now are turning out about 2500-3000 chiropractors per year. I don't think it is inconceivable to say that there are 10,000 out of the 50,000 practitioners in those positions. That is 20%, which is not an outlier, that is a significant portion. At that point I would say that those cutting their teeth as associates make up a large enough portion of this field that they probably do skew the numbers downward.


And one question I do have, the government numbers include a chiropractor who graduated 1 month ago and is making $15 an hour as part of the averages. But do they count the MD that graduated 1 month ago, making roughly the same amount in an internship under the averages for a medical doctor?

studentDC
01-17-2011, 12:47 AM
Here's another source. Assuming we're talking just about the HEAL loans, there were 527 defaults over a period of 20 years (1978-1998), that's only 26 loans/year. There are 17 Chiro schools in operation right now, if there were only 26 defaulted loans/year, that's only a little more than 1 bad loan per school. It doesn't seem like a skyrocketing figure to me.

Disciplines (http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/discipline.asp)

In terms of not being able to pay back loans, I don't think the situation is as bad as what Chirotalk and some other sources have claimed. However, the number of practice management firms in chiro and the amount of marketing in this industry (the shear number of ads in any chiro publication) is intimidating.

Read more: Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum - Student Loan Default Rate - Not bad (http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=exdcs&action=display&thread=4856&page=2#ixzz1BGxBOlUc)

AgActual
01-17-2011, 01:05 AM
Here's another source. Assuming we're talking just about the HEAL loans, there were 527 defaults over a period of 20 years (1978-1998), that's only 26 loans/year. There are 17 Chiro schools in operation right now, if there were only 26 defaulted loans/year, that's only a little more than 1 bad loan per school. It doesn't seem like a skyrocketing figure to me.

Disciplines (http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/discipline.asp)

In terms of not being able to pay back loans, I don't think the situation is as bad as what Chirotalk and some other sources have claimed. However, the number of practice management firms in chiro and the amount of marketing in this industry (the shear number of ads in any chiro publication) is intimidating.

Read more: Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum - Student Loan Default Rate - Not bad (http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=exdcs&action=display&thread=4856&page=2#ixzz1BGxBOlUc)

My brain is fried from studying today, so i may be wrong on this but it seems you saying that my 1% is far too high and this situation is even less grim than I was saying.


However, the number of practice management firms in chiro and the amount of marketing in this industry (the shear number of ads in any chiro publication) is intimidating.
I think we have to remember that unlike most other health professions, we don't have that vast network of hospitals and referrals. One of the risks of becoming a chiropractor is relying on oneself for employment, so we need to find more creative ways of finding patients. Chiropractors need to eat too, after all. Perhaps a necessary evil?

Forsaken38
01-17-2011, 04:55 AM
One of the risks of becoming a chiropractor is relying on oneself for employment, so we need to find more creative ways of finding patients. Chiropractors need to eat too, after all. Perhaps a necessary evil?

To me This is a benefit, not a risk. I wanted to be self employed so I didn't have to try to please someone else all the time. I get to do things the way I think is best for my practice. A necessary evil? I think not. It's only as "evil" as you make it. If you are a good DC, in a good area patients will come. (much like a 1980's k3vin costner baseball film). Ok, my brain is fried as well, Have a great day all.

AgActual
01-17-2011, 12:24 PM
To me This is a benefit, not a risk. I wanted to be self employed so I didn't have to try to please someone else all the time. I get to do things the way I think is best for my practice. A necessary evil? I think not. It's only as "evil" as you make it. If you are a good DC, in a good area patients will come. (much like a 1980's k3vin costner baseball film). Ok, my brain is fried as well, Have a great day all.

It isn't just about self employment, it is about total self reliance. You won't have that safety net or backup plan that so many other health providers enjoy. Even optometrists can suck it up and work for wal mart. No real options exist for chiropractors beyond self employment. The closest you have eeking out a living working for another chiropractor.

The point is, those practice building companies are so prevalent because failure is not much of an option for a chiropractor and those companies do help. I often find it strange that the people who criticize the practice building agencies and point out that it shows the desperate situation for chiropractors are the same people that fight the idea of chiropractors working in hospitals and joining the military.

khiro
01-17-2011, 02:46 PM
It isn't just about self employment, it is about total self reliance. You won't have that safety net or backup plan that so many other health providers enjoy. Even optometrists can suck it up and work for wal mart. No real options exist for chiropractors beyond self employment. The closest you have eeking out a living working for another chiropractor.

The point is, those practice building companies are so prevalent because failure is not much of an option for a chiropractor and those companies do help. I often find it strange that the people who criticize the practice building agencies and point out that it shows the desperate situation for chiropractors are the same people that fight the idea of chiropractors working in hospitals and joining the military.

excellent observation!! i can't think of any other professional degree that is so isolated. i have posted on how i tried to join the army in 1987 and they said, sure thing...as a private. this was b/c i did not yet have my bachelors and they did not recognize the DC. this has changed. AgActual is 100% correct that once you become a DC it is all YOU. not much help from the associations (state or national). as i have repeatedly said, you must do some real good research in deciding where you want to set up your practice if you're a DC. all states are not alike. one of my many points of disappointment with the profession. let me put it like this. in JAN2009 blue cross of florida slashed reimbursements on procedures affecting chiros in florida. the percentage? what would you think? 10? 20? 30? 40? how about 46%. thats right. a 46% cut on procedures used by the majority of DCs in florida. now for those DCs whose practice is largely dependent on insurance coverage by BC, that is a big hurdle to jump. now my only solace is that this was implemented statewide; good of them not to discriminate against any one area of the state. btw, how many out there would like to take a 46% pay cut? there are business models out there that you can use to help you succeed. sadly i wouldn't put much emphasis on developing a practice model without first developing a business model. the two are very different. when i started all you had to worry about was treating people fairly and watching out for the loonies.

talking about pay cuts,,,the MDs are doing some bristling and subtle threats about not taking medicare pts if the proposed MC paycuts go through. and i thought that it was all about service,,,

studentDC
01-17-2011, 07:23 PM
a 46% cut on procedures used by the majority of DCs in florida. now for those DCs whose practice is largely dependent on insurance coverage by BC, that is a big hurdle to jump.

Khiro, what kind of services were cut? I was actually thinking about practicing in Florida...since California is wayyy too saturated.

Also, is it sensible to think that people can survive on moderate volume musculoskeletal based practice? I'm so tired of hearing high volume practices, where each patient is treated as a wallet number... I thought I signed up to do health care.

studentDC
01-17-2011, 07:30 PM
My brain is fried from studying today, so i may be wrong on this but it seems you saying that my 1% is far too high and this situation is even less grim than I was saying.


I still don't agree with you to use 70,000. You can't make the assumption that all those people took out loans. There's also quite a number of them that graduated before 1978, their loan histories are not as clear. Either way, we've achieved the same conclusion though. I do think now that the evidence for high loan default rates is anecdotal (sorta like chiropractic miracles, lol).

AgActual
01-17-2011, 07:51 PM
I still don't agree with you to use 70,000. You can't make the assumption that all those people took out loans. There's also quite a number of them that graduated before 1978, their loan histories are not as clear. Either way, we've achieved the same conclusion though. I do think now that the evidence for high loan default rates is anecdotal (sorta like chiropractic miracles, lol).

Fair enough. I'll edit my original post soon to fit your findings, since they seem to be more accurate. However, i still maintain that the numbers i presented were probably better than about 99% of the information you can find on this subject around the internet. I found one source that claimed the default rate was 70%....


I was actually thinking about practicing in Florida...since California is wayyy too saturated. I'll let Khiro address your other concerns but on the idea of practicing in Florida, I would recommend against it. One of my business professors mentioned Florida as one of the worst states to practice in because of over saturation. Think about how many chiropractic colleges are in the area. Running a chiropractic clinic down there is supposed to be a nightmare these days. UHSADOC can also give you some insight into the workings of things down in Florida, so talking to him at some point would likely be beneficial.

Also I have been slowly running the numbers from that map you posted last night to figure out the states with the best population to chiropractor ratio. It is only one dimension of trying to figure out the best state to practice in but it should at least give us some clues as to which states are over saturated. I will post those soon enough but so far I have found that Washington DC appears to be the best place to open a practice, with a ratio of 1 chiropractor for every 20,000 people. Most other places it is around 1 chiro for every 5000 people.

studentDC
01-18-2011, 12:47 AM
I do think now that the evidence for high loan default rates is anecdotal (sorta like chiropractic miracles, lol).

As anecdotal as it is...if it's someone you know, it makes it that much more frightening/realistic. My landlady's son went to the same chiropractic school that I'm going to now. He graduated more than 10 years ago. Unfortunately he's still struggling with his student loans (even though he has already moved out of California to Arizona). When I first moved in, not wanting to scare me off..they just told me that there isn't a lot of money in Chiropractic...I didn't know that it was that bad. =S...

khiro
01-18-2011, 08:44 AM
Khiro, what kind of services were cut? I was actually thinking about practicing in Florida...since California is wayyy too saturated.

Also, is it sensible to think that people can survive on moderate volume musculoskeletal based practice? I'm so tired of hearing high volume practices, where each patient is treated as a wallet number... I thought I signed up to do health care.

this is what BC did. lets say that when a pt came in you did a manip, ultrasound, elec stim and some exercises. very reasonable practice method. four procedures. in jan09 without warning or any communication the explanation of benefits (thats the piece of paper you get back after filing a claim that tells you the what for and how much they paid on) started showing no pays on 2 therapies. so they will only pay for a manip and 1 therapy. and i am not even sure if BC answered our state assoc question as to whether we could charge the pt for those 2 "non-necessary" therapies. basically, it is moving your practice to cash. that is the plan. of course through the yrs we have always had the trash plans from BC that the individual picked from a cafeteria type of option. but this move was across the board, a universal move if you will. look, the bottom line is that ins. co. have over my 24 yrs increased their deductibles, lowered their coverage, and then lowered the doctor pay. now unless the economy is making up that loss for you (say you lived in a highly vigorous economic area (orlando) and you had a steady increase in pt traffic, or you opened up additional clinics (again to increase your traffic) if not this or other ways to increase income then the insurance companies are dead set to put you out; not directly of course, they are in the business of making money so if you go out well that is even better. for most chiros the additional clinic probably makes the best sense at least in the beginning. then more competition comes in and they are where they were to begin with. the ins co are probably doing this to other types of docs as well, but it doesn't matter, as we are only concerned with ourselves. i do not and would not recommend chiro as a vocation. that said, i only want those who are in school to be successful; as i think that they are bright enough to do just about anything. it depends a lot on the person. i have never done just chiro for income, but in the old days chiro was very good to me for the time that i put in. the return is not there today, i guess is what i am saying. you have to be your own person and it will work out. i know a fellow that graduated from TCC a yr ahead of me. he came back to northwest florida, opened a little office in a little town. worked it for 2-3 yrs, then started teaching high school (his parents were teachers). about 13 yrs ago he got hired by a comm college to teach science. he is very happy with his decision, but chiropractic was not a wasted degree for him thankfully, b/c it was his DC that got him the job. the DC market here in florida is very tough. i would like to see the results of AgActuals informal research into what area population wise would best support a new DC; but you can't forget the importance of good state laws, open treatment and a good economic base. i apoligize for the long post, but where you set up your practice is a very important decision for success.

studentDC
01-18-2011, 01:30 PM
Thanks so much for sharing all the details. It's definitely eye opening.

CARICOM-MED
01-18-2011, 02:26 PM
DC = 4 years now to teach Highschool ?? or college ??

This is really sad, if that is what he is using the DC degree for, you would NEVER find a MD or DO that will use their MD/DO degree (and worse their medical license) to TEACH highschool/college........the least would be to teach at a medical or osteopathic college/university....but NEVER highschool.....that makes the DC equal or less of a value to a master's teaching degree...

I think the market is seriously saturated with DCs, that are only utilized to 5-7%.....compared to MD/DO that are utilized 50-70% (at minimum)....

Furthermore:
I've read many DC college brochures that use the fact that Chiropractic is the 3rd largest healthcare discipline after medicine and dentistry...it is also the poorest and least utilized.....


this is what BC did. lets say that when a pt came in you did a manip, ultrasound, elec stim and some exercises. very reasonable practice method. four procedures. in jan09 without warning or any communication the explanation of benefits (thats the piece of paper you get back after filing a claim that tells you the what for and how much they paid on) started showing no pays on 2 therapies. so they will only pay for a manip and 1 therapy. and i am not even sure if BC answered our state assoc question as to whether we could charge the pt for those 2 "non-necessary" therapies. basically, it is moving your practice to cash. that is the plan. of course through the yrs we have always had the trash plans from BC that the individual picked from a cafeteria type of option. but this move was across the board, a universal move if you will. look, the bottom line is that ins. co. have over my 24 yrs increased their deductibles, lowered their coverage, and then lowered the doctor pay. now unless the economy is making up that loss for you (say you lived in a highly vigorous economic area (orlando) and you had a steady increase in pt traffic, or you opened up additional clinics (again to increase your traffic) if not this or other ways to increase income then the insurance companies are dead set to put you out; not directly of course, they are in the business of making money so if you go out well that is even better. for most chiros the additional clinic probably makes the best sense at least in the beginning. then more competition comes in and they are where they were to begin with. the ins co are probably doing this to other types of docs as well, but it doesn't matter, as we are only concerned with ourselves. i do not and would not recommend chiro as a vocation. that said, i only want those who are in school to be successful; as i think that they are bright enough to do just about anything. it depends a lot on the person. i have never done just chiro for income, but in the old days chiro was very good to me for the time that i put in. the return is not there today, i guess is what i am saying. you have to be your own person and it will work out. i know a fellow that graduated from TCC a yr ahead of me. he came back to northwest florida, opened a little office in a little town. worked it for 2-3 yrs, then started teaching high school (his parents were teachers). about 13 yrs ago he got hired by a comm college to teach science. he is very happy with his decision, but chiropractic was not a wasted degree for him thankfully, b/c it was his DC that got him the job. the DC market here in florida is very tough. i would like to see the results of AgActuals informal research into what area population wise would best support a new DC; but you can't forget the importance of good state laws, open treatment and a good economic base. i apoligize for the long post, but where you set up your practice is a very important decision for success.

khiro
01-18-2011, 04:15 PM
DC = 4 years now to teach Highschool ?? or college ??

This is really sad, if that is what he is using the DC degree for, you would NEVER find a MD or DO that will use their MD/DO degree (and worse their medical license) to TEACH highschool/college........the least would be to teach at a medical or osteopathic college/university....but NEVER highschool.....that makes the DC equal or less of a value to a master's teaching degree...

I think the market is seriously saturated with DCs, that are only utilized to 5-7%.....compared to MD/DO that are utilized 50-70% (at minimum)....

Furthermore:
I've read many DC college brochures that use the fact that Chiropractic is the 3rd largest healthcare discipline after medicine and dentistry...it is also the poorest and least utilized.....

and what would you have him to do with his DC??? this was in the late 1980s.
the guy made a wrong career move in going to chiro school, coming out and going to a small town (that no one has been to since) to try and make a practice work (dd palmer could not have made a practice work in that town). it didn't work out for him and probably not wanting to try any other job he went into what was available. i know his county very well and teaching or law enforcement is it. period. he taught high school for 8 yrs or so and has for the past 12 or so taught at a comm college. the DC is considered (paywise) to be "doctorate" b/c TCC is SACS accredited as a doctorate school, so his pay is above the master level or ed. specialist level and is equal to phd. of course informally there is only one doctorate in the academic world and that is the phd. now in this case he was able to make something out of his DC; he used what he had. and in some respects i am sure it was humbling to enter the HS and teach as a "doctor". i am not saying that this was the best way to enter the teaching field, as it is not the best way. but remember this is an "out" for those with a DC who don't want to practice.

and yes, chiropractic has all sorts of problems as you have mentioned. and i really am looking forward to AgActual posting what he can find about the best place(s) for a starting DC.

btw when i was a p/t adjunct instructor at a comm college there was a head/neck surgeon teaching anatomy? er no, actually he taught health; but he never failed to tell his class that he was a head/neck guy. the school didn't ask him back after a yr. he was what you would label a misfit. but he is the exception as you are right most MDs do not need to do anything other than pay attention and don't sexual harrass their pts or employees. most can and do maintain healthy practices. even the jerks. which of course is why i recommend MD or DO for a vocation.

Forsaken38
01-18-2011, 10:30 PM
This is really sad, if that is what he is using the DC degree for, you would NEVER find a MD or DO that will use their MD/DO degree (and worse their medical license) to TEACH highschool/college........the least would be to teach at a medical or osteopathic college/university....but NEVER highschool.....that makes the DC equal or less of a value to a master's teaching degree...



First, not all of us want to be an MD/DO. And no, it is equal to any other first professional doctorate. I know a couple MD/Dpm's that teach at the college level. Why would teaching be viewed upon as negative. Granted I know none that teach high school. Also, I recently read that a DC (diplomate radiologist) teaches Radiology classes at an ivy league MD school. I don't think a DC is on the level of a masters or less. Why all the DC bashing lately?






I think the market is seriously saturated with DCs, that are only utilized to 5-7%.....compared to MD/DO that are utilized 50-70% (at minimum)....



I think that maybe it is for two reasons. First MD's will give you drugs, I know that is one of the only reasons I go to one. People get sick and need drugs sometimes. Second, people are afraid of Death; medicine does a pretty good job of saving lives most of the time. Not too many people afraid of lower back pain. It's like dentistry, not a necessity to stay alive(in most cases).





Furthermore:
I've read many DC college brochures that use the fact that Chiropractic is the 3rd largest healthcare discipline after medicine and dentistry...it is also the poorest and least utilized.....

Maybe it is the poorest and least utilized, I don't think it is the poorest. But maybe it is.
One thing we have figured out is that nobody really knows how rich or poor the profession may or may not be as a whole. The data is just not there to say one way or another. But every profession has its ups and downs. Chiro is one of the least stressful of any healthcare discipline, has the best work hours, has lower malpractice rates than any other discipline. No 3am calls, no death, less stress, more family time. No matter what you still trade one for the other. MD has to deal with this stuff, but gets more respect and better pay. DC gets better working conditions, less pay and respect.

Take what you want and pay for it. All depends on what you want as to what you will be willing to put up with.

Cheers

AgActual
01-23-2011, 08:54 PM
9. There is a high risk of stroke with chiropractic manipulations.
I found a good interview of a chiropractic professor at The University of Bridgeport on this issue. He discusses the scientific research into this this area and they also talk about recent activities in Connecticut of anti-chiropractic groups attempting to promote the idea that cervical spine manipulations performed by chiropractors carries a risk of stroke and even death.

You can stream it from this website.

OnTheOtherHand Ľ Blog Archive Ľ Episode 2: Dr. Stephen Perle discusses Chiropractic and Stroke (http://ontheotherhand.podbean.com/2010/09/30/episode-2-dr-stephen-perle-discusses-chiropractic-and-stroke/#comments)

Drgeosprint
01-23-2011, 09:32 PM
Hey Ag,

check out the chiro rad program.....When you are bored check out Cryiax, kirkaldy-willis, korr et al...... Only....say 20+ years old...all your bases are ours.

Utis
01-23-2011, 09:35 PM
And yet I would still a trust a Chiropractor to do surgery more than I would one of you Caribbean "doctors".

Drgeosprint
01-23-2011, 09:37 PM
Muhahahahahahahhahahaaaa!!! GOD I AM BORED!!!!! Springtime in Alaska its forty below........pretty much true.......

Trolls are active tonight.......

Be wery quiet we're hunting wabbits..........

Wabbit season....Duck season...wabbits ...ducks........never will end but full of lol's

AgActual
01-24-2011, 01:24 AM
More information on salary. CNN's finical arm stated not too long ago that the average chiropractic salary across the U.S. is $85,000 (about $92,000 in 2011 dollars), which does match up with studentDC's posting but the percentage of chiros making over the median salary that studentDC posted is 75%. So perhaps the average is being dragged down by that 25% or so?

So, which source is right? Who knows but I still maintain that the idea that chiropractic is some god awful career full of nothing but misery and hardship is ridiculous. I am sure the typical chiropractor does just fine.

MONEY Magazine's Best Jobs: Chiropractor (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/2006/snapshots/14.html)

MONEY Magazine's Best Jobs: The Top 50 (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/2006/top50/index.html)

Forsaken38
01-24-2011, 08:40 AM
And yet I would still a trust a Chiropractor to do surgery more than I would one of you Caribbean "doctors".


Let' be reasonable. Scope of practice. Stay within it.

khiro
01-24-2011, 04:12 PM
More information on salary. CNN's finical arm stated not too long ago that the average chiropractic salary across the U.S. is $85,000 (about $92,000 in 2011 dollars), which does match up with studentDC's posting but the percentage of chiros making over the median salary that studentDC posted is 75%. So perhaps the average is being dragged down by that 25% or so?

So, which source is right? Who knows but I still maintain that the idea that chiropractic is some god awful career full of nothing but misery and hardship is ridiculous. I am sure the typical chiropractor does just fine.

MONEY Magazine's Best Jobs: Chiropractor (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/2006/snapshots/14.html)

MONEY Magazine's Best Jobs: The Top 50 (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/2006/top50/index.html)

just what is that magical number that would keep you coming back into the office every day? i know that students typically are single, kidless, and mostly broke and getting broker by the semester, but what is that number. every student (of any discipline) should have a good ballpark figure of what they are going to be worth once they finish their last class. easier to do with a company or govt employer, but harder to figure being self-employed. for those who are already in school start trying to figure out what you are going to need to have structure and function in your life after school. i will say that looking at the high school or comm college teaching field, DCs start out making close to 50k but with retirement contributions from the state the value gets bumped up to 70-74k. then if you add in health insurance, another 8-12k. that puts you at 82k value. i don't what summers off is in value. i haven't had any ever, so that will be new. i am going to label the value of summers off as .....priceless.

i am not assigning to others a drop-dead figure; but i did assign one to myself. chiropractic had to give me XX amount of money per year or i was out. that simple. for me that number was 130k. and that number was very kind to chiropractic, it probably should have been higher. why? i am close to 50. some of the people i went to high school with are now principals with 25+ yrs of experience making 80k a yr. add in the retirement contribution value, the insurance value, time off of work value, and they are near the 120k value (granted, i would not want to be one). the last several yrs has been close but last yr failed to meet the requirement. thus for that and other reasons, i am heading in a new direction. as AgActual has said, chiro ed is an investment. one, i hope that pays off for you students.

AgActual
01-24-2011, 08:18 PM
So you are saying that a chiropractor that is failing at what they do can supplement their income or find a way out of the field via teaching? Sounds like a back up plan i could live with. I went to a community college for my first two years of school and I always considered teaching at one someday. I think i might do it whether i am a failure at chiropractic or not.


just what is that magical number that would keep you coming back into the office every day? i know that students typically are single, kidless, and mostly broke and getting broker by the semester, but what is that number. every student (of any discipline) should have a good ballpark figure of what they are going to be worth once they finish their last class. easier to do with a company or govt employer, but harder to figure being self-employed. for those who are already in school start trying to figure out what you are going to need to have structure and function in your life after school. i will say that looking at the high school or comm college teaching field, DCs start out making close to 50k but with retirement contributions from the state the value gets bumped up to 70-74k. then if you add in health insurance, another 8-12k. that puts you at 82k value. i don't what summers off is in value. i haven't had any ever, so that will be new. i am going to label the value of summers off as .....priceless.

i am not assigning to others a drop-dead figure; but i did assign one to myself. chiropractic had to give me XX amount of money per year or i was out. that simple. for me that number was 130k. and that number was very kind to chiropractic, it probably should have been higher. why? i am close to 50. some of the people i went to high school with are now principals with 25+ yrs of experience making 80k a yr. add in the retirement contribution value, the insurance value, time off of work value, and they are near the 120k value (granted, i would not want to be one). the last several yrs has been close but last yr failed to meet the requirement. thus for that and other reasons, i am heading in a new direction. as AgActual has said, chiro ed is an investment. one, i hope that pays off for you students.

khiro
01-25-2011, 04:45 PM
So you are saying that a chiropractor that is failing at what they do can supplement their income or find a way out of the field via teaching? Sounds like a back up plan i could live with. I went to a community college for my first two years of school and I always considered teaching at one someday. I think i might do it whether i am a failure at chiropractic or not.

yes. in 2000 i met a DC that was leaving chiro. he went to med school via saba. he said that he couldn't justify being a sci teacher making 30k a yr. well, the salaries have risen in teaching although the future raises and stability is somewhat shaky in some states. but i consider teaching as stable as being an MD. and a lot more stable than being in private DC practice (at least in fla). and i am reaching that age and yrs in practice where i begin to question if i wanted to do this when i am 55.
if you chose to stay in chiropractic:
i am asking you to demand something of chiro. you know as you go through DC school, the professors always are asking you to do something for chiro. study for chiro, join this club or that assoc for the stability of chiro. always you, you and you. ok, i know that involvement is important, but it isn't one way. demand that chiro support you for the hard work that you do and the time, money and effort that you put in to get your ed. demand that the ACA support the CCEs efforts; damn the ACA, ICA, WCA. they are the ones that have refused to move this profession. don't sell yourself short.

most states have trouble finding science teachers, so DCs could with effort transtition into the teaching field. can they walk in and start teaching like in a comm college? no. there are procedures, exams, student teaching, etc that most states will require even a DC/MD/DO (any one without a teaching degree) to do for grades 6-12. of course, comm college is walk in and find your podium. but for the later stages of ones work life, teaching can be very enjoyable, less stressful, and more time off than the chaos of private practice.

AgActual
01-27-2011, 01:51 AM
Here's another source. Assuming we're talking just about the HEAL loans, there were 527 defaults over a period of 20 years (1978-1998), that's only 26 loans/year. There are 17 Chiro schools in operation right now, if there were only 26 defaulted loans/year, that's only a little more than 1 bad loan per school. It doesn't seem like a skyrocketing figure to me.

Disciplines (http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/discipline.asp)

In terms of not being able to pay back loans, I don't think the situation is as bad as what Chirotalk and some other sources have claimed. However, the number of practice management firms in chiro and the amount of marketing in this industry (the shear number of ads in any chiro publication) is intimidating.

Read more: Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum - Student Loan Default Rate - Not bad (http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=exdcs&action=display&thread=4856&page=2#ixzz1BGxBOlUc)


I was listening to an interview with a Dr. Richard Vincent from about a month ago, who became a chiropractor in 1960 and he said that one of the major sources of revenue for these practice management companies is students and recent grads that have been frightened into thinking they will fail and will be unable to pay off loans. He said the mistake is focusing on you and not the patient. If you sit around worrying all of the time about paying off loans or making as much money as possible, you will get too caught up in your own problems to focus on the problems of your patients and you will probably make a lot of desperate/stupid decisions. I guess he believes that the key to success is doing everything you can to be good at what you do and focus on the needs of the people coming to you for help, and not on how you can maximize your income. If you are focused on patient care and invest the time in become a good chiropractor, you will be unique from all of the other chiropractors in your area and then you won't need to "recruit" patients, they will just come to you.

Maybe it sounds a bit idealistic but it also sounds a hell of a lot better than pouncing on people at the mall and offering free spinal exams or having a high volume practice where you see 20 patients in an hour. Perhaps we will have more success if we focus on the people coming to us for help instead of acting greedy and desperate?


Here is a link to the interview if anyone is interested


OnTheOtherHand Ľ Blog Archive Ľ Episode 10: Richard Vincent, DC on sixty years of ethical practice and the future of chiropractic (http://ontheotherhand.podbean.com/2010/11/11/episode-10-richard-vincent-dc-on-sixty-years-of-ethical-practice-and-the-future-of-chiropractic/#comments)

AgActual
02-11-2011, 09:51 PM
I did find some more info about student loan default rates. They are a few years old now but here are the default rates for 2005-2007 for all of the chiropractic colleges. Additionally I did find the definition of defaulting on a student loan is "not making student loan payments for 270+ days".

Student Loan Default - Student Loan Default Definition - What Is Student Loan Default (http://credit.about.com/od/sv/g/studloandefault.htm)



U.S. Average for All Student Loans=5.22%


-Life University=3.8% (was 22% in 1996)

-Cleveland L.A.=2.3%

-Texas College of Chiropractic=1.6%

-Cleveland College of Chiropractic=1.37%

-Sherman College of Straight Chiropractic=1.3%

-Parker College of Chiropractic=1%

-National University of Health Sciences=0.8%

-Southern California University of Health Sciences=0.7%

-Palmer College West=0.66%

-Palmer College of Chiropractic=0.6%

-Logan College of Chiropractic=0.43%

-Western States=0.4%

-Life West=0.2%

-Northwestern Health Sciences University=0.16%

-New York College of Chiropractic=0%


Overall between 2005-2007, 183 chiropractors went into default of 17,902, which gives an average default rate of 1.02%



Best Student Loan Default Rates by School. Compare, reviews & ratings. (http://student-loan-default.findthebest.com/)

AgActual
02-11-2011, 10:14 PM
I did find information from 3 of the country's podiatry schools from that website. If these three schools are the typical situation, i wouldn't say that chiropractic has a "much higher rate than other health care professions".

Barry University=2.56%


New York College Podiatric Medicine=0.83%


Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine=0.33%

Average=1.24%


I am sure that average would drop if I could find more stats for more schools. Barry University is a bit of an outlier and really inflating the average. But then again, so is Life University for chiropractic.....



Edit: Also looked up A.T. Still University, the grandfather of all osteopathic colleges, at their default rate is 0.6%. Same as Palmer. Really makes you think....

CARICOM-MED
02-12-2011, 10:56 AM
Doubt that it is true, I bet 30-40% of the graduating DCs, drop out of the profession so the Posted 80K per year is HIGHLY inflated, considering the DCs that are currently practicing resort to unethical practices, and insurance fraud....The 0.5% of default from DO and DPMs is probably due to DO/DPM graduates that had personal issues, or couldn't match on time, that's all, 99% of DOs can secure a job with at least 150K per year.....
The fact that DCs go to community colleges to teach shows you just how desperate they are for income, you will NEVER find a DO/DPM teach "science" at a community college or highschool for 30K :)

Forsaken38
02-12-2011, 09:55 PM
Really? Are you just saying that based on a feeling, or do you have some data that we can all look at?

AgActual
02-12-2011, 10:22 PM
I fixed the numbers that I posted yesterday. The percentage is actually 1/100th of a percent higher than I posted. I also added in Palmer West, Life West, and Cleveland LA.

AgActual
02-12-2011, 10:29 PM
*sigh.......


Doubt that it is true, I bet 30-40% of the graduating DCs, drop out of the profession so the Posted 80K per year is HIGHLY inflated, considering the DCs that are currently practicing resort to unethical practices, and insurance fraud....The 0.5% of default from DO and DPMs is probably due to DO/DPM graduates that had personal issues, or couldn't match on time, that's all, 99% of DOs can secure a job with at least 150K per year.....
The fact that DCs go to community colleges to teach shows you just how desperate they are for income, you will NEVER find a DO/DPM teach "science" at a community college or highschool for 30K :)

khiro
02-14-2011, 05:17 PM
The fact that DCs go to community colleges to teach shows you just how desperate they are for income, you will NEVER find a DO/DPM teach "science" at a community college or highschool for 30K :)[/COLOR]


there are internal and external forces on the profession that make it difficult for the majority of chiros to prosper. as i have said before, the system is not equal, it will never be equal, and therefore neither will the money. if you join the chiro profession you should know this. going to work from 8-5 you will make less than most of the mds/dos in your town. b/c your breath is bad? no. your parking lot is gravel instead of paved? no. it is what you do and the value that is placed on it. you can see the same number of pts as the md and your pay will be less. that is an external factor that you as the DC can do very little about. it is your contract with the ins. co. they value your services less than that of an md/do. that is a fact that you will have to live with. or not.

btw i went to the senior bowl in mobile al with a fellow DC who went to national and then 10 yrs later went to spartan. he is in family practice. seemed happy but maybe that was the booze.

AgActual
02-14-2011, 06:12 PM
I have always heard the argument that chiropractic is a poor career because you will probably make less than an MD. But why are we using that as a point of reference? Why is that the standard? Chiropractors aren't medical doctors. Isn't there a difference between saying "I might never make as much as an MD", and saying "I am a failure"? Lets say 5 years after I graduate, I am making $90,000 a year, which is roughly where you would expect it to be. That is enough to start paying off my student loans, to make rent or make house payments, to pay for food, go out with friends every now and then, and some money for savings. I wouldn't be living in a mansion but things would be comfortable. However, if that is my situation, am I failure because I am not making as much as an MD that graduated the same year I did? Even if that MD is making twice as much, am I a failure? Do i have a crappy job? Should I sit in my office and weep that my life has been ruined by chiropractic?

I guess the overall question is, why do chiropractors have to be all around equal to MD's in order to be considered a success or even just doing reasonably well? The average salary for the 50,000 chiropractors out there is $90,000-$100,000 a year. Is that really so insultingly low that we need to abandon this field forever? Almost no other career is going to get you $100,000 per year but that is the typical pay for a DC. However, since that is less than an MD, that is proof that chiropractors are failing to thrive? I don't understand that logic.



there are internal and external forces on the profession that make it difficult for the majority of chiros to prosper. as i have said before, the system is not equal, it will never be equal, and therefore neither will the money. if you join the chiro profession you should know this. going to work from 8-5 you will make less than most of the mds/dos in your town. b/c your breath is bad? no. your parking lot is gravel instead of paved? no. it is what you do and the value that is placed on it. you can see the same number of pts as the md and your pay will be less. that is an external factor that you as the DC can do very little about. it is your contract with the ins. co. they value your services less than that of an md/do. that is a fact that you will have to live with. or not.

btw i went to the senior bowl in mobile al with a fellow DC who went to national and then 10 yrs later went to spartan. he is in family practice. seemed happy but maybe that was the booze.

khiro
02-15-2011, 09:11 AM
for those in school: you should know (although i didn't when i was in school) what the avg. person in your field is making. and for those considering chiropractic: you should know what the avg pay is for every field of whatever interest you. back in the late 70s i just knew that the DC in my town looked like he made good money as compared to most people (and he did).

some chiros believe that they are equal to mds in knowledge and therefore, it falls that pay should be equal. some in the public believe that chiros are equal (or better than) to the md, so pay has to be the same (it isn't). for various reasons (real and unreal) chiros have always been comparing themselves to mds. the increase in license laws was b/c of the md standard. like it not, that is the truth. and it does lend ligit to the profession.

yrs ago a practice mgmt company recommended to DCs to drive an automobile that was "doctor" standard. "doctor" meant?? MD (and for goodness sake, park it out front!!)

i guess it is natural to be compared with that group to which you most often compete with. and the DC is in competition against the MD. their PA will prove this to you over and over. i assigned a yr. value in monetary terms to my practice, and this would be way below the avg. MD. financially, our practices are as different as apples to oranges. this is largely due to forces that the DC can not control.

AgActual
02-18-2011, 08:31 PM
So, do you think DC's should be making at least as much as MD's?
for those in school: you should know (although i didn't when i was in school) what the avg. person in your field is making. and for those considering chiropractic: you should know what the avg pay is for every field of whatever interest you. back in the late 70s i just knew that the DC in my town looked like he made good money as compared to most people (and he did).

some chiros believe that they are equal to mds in knowledge and therefore, it falls that pay should be equal. some in the public believe that chiros are equal (or better than) to the md, so pay has to be the same (it isn't). for various reasons (real and unreal) chiros have always been comparing themselves to mds. the increase in license laws was b/c of the md standard. like it not, that is the truth. and it does lend ligit to the profession.

yrs ago a practice mgmt company recommended to DCs to drive an automobile that was "doctor" standard. "doctor" meant?? MD (and for goodness sake, park it out front!!)

i guess it is natural to be compared with that group to which you most often compete with. and the DC is in competition against the MD. their PA will prove this to you over and over. i assigned a yr. value in monetary terms to my practice, and this would be way below the avg. MD. financially, our practices are as different as apples to oranges. this is largely due to forces that the DC can not control.

Forsaken38
02-20-2011, 08:50 PM
So, do you think DC's should be making at least as much as MD's?

No. We do not provide the same set of services as an MD/DO. Its like khiro said, its apples to oranges. When Chiros provide similar services to MD/DO's, then I think it would be fair to compare things like salary, lifestyle, work environments, harm indices, etc. Also, compensation for services may not be the best way to compare professions or the impact they have. What it does tell us is that the market value for MD/DO services is considerably higher than the value of services the average DC will provide. In order to increase the market value of DC services, we have to change/adapt the services that we provide. An old chinese proverb I heard once, said, and I'm paraphasing here, Fear is necessary in order to evolve. I don't think that fear of extinction is a big issue right now with chiro's, but maybe I am wrong. When that fear becomes great enough, change will soon follow.

Cheers

khiro
02-21-2011, 12:42 PM
So, do you think DC's should be making at least as much as MD's?

i think forsaken38 has it right. there has to be a change on the chiropractic side before there is any real shift toward equality of pay. the market forces that are in play at the present time really work against you coming to work and treating pts and collecting any thing close to the family MD. now i am talking about the avg chiro and the avg fam MD. not the outliers. and i am referring to practice of chiro in florida; where we are basically shut out of the workers' comp money. and where state farm almost had the DCs in trouble with proposing a similar bill as WC for the auto injury money. that bill failed and that will allow me to ease out of the profession (i pray) before it is introduced again (sooner or later it will reappear). yes there are cuts in the medical profession as well but as a DC friend told me he was banking on the MDs surviving and as he was from new jersey he was not optimistic being a DC. now of course there are DCs in NJ. it is that this fellow wanted more not less every yr and he didn't see chiro as the way to go. i think each chiro should set his own figures in regard to ROI, the same as any other business person. i just don't see the MDs having as many hurdles as the DCs. not even close. and making money is extremely important.

safaribiker
02-24-2011, 03:12 AM
thanks ........

CARICOM-MED
03-02-2011, 08:30 PM
Aren't Chiropractors just "Glorified" Massage Therapists ?
and I quote "Chiropractor is a massage therapist without the hot oil" two & a half men.

canuckdc
03-02-2011, 08:39 PM
UHSA doc...grow up and get a life

AgActual
03-03-2011, 12:14 AM
By that logic, aren't MD's just glorified nurses?


Aren't Chiropractors just "Glorified" Massage Therapists ?
and I quote "Chiropractor is a massage therapist without the hot oil" two & a half men.

canuckdc
03-03-2011, 05:46 AM
I think UHSA doc secretly wants to be a massage therapist since he spends all his in this forum

khiro
03-04-2011, 10:09 AM
maybe i am just being dim-witted today, but when i read UHSADOCs statement of sarcasm i wanted to look deeper into his emotional state to find what could foster such a statement? perhaps the truth?? oh, we chiros know that chiropractors are more than a massage person, but what about the people that really count? what do they think of when they hear the word chiropractic? we know what the writer of two and half men thought of chiropractic don't we? yrs ago i proudly told an old farmer in holmes county florida that i was going to school to be a chiropractor..his response, oh so you're going to be one of those punch doctors.

lets make the point a little more simple: i ask the profession to pick one of the following:
are you a: 1) chiropractor 2) chiropractic physician

you would think that most level headed people (like myself) would decide well, i am both as they mean the same thing. not so according to a significant part of the profession. we can't even decide what our title is; what our degree means; what the scope of our education ought to be. it is truly the most spastic profession that i can think of.

canuckdc
03-04-2011, 12:55 PM
khiro - this is a forum with so called professionals, not really the place for intra-professional jabs. Don't bow down to UHSADOC. We are all educated so the anti chiro comments are calculated not nieve like your farmer friend. I think chiros need to have some backbone ( no pun intended). this has been going on for half a century based on what happened the half of century before.

AgActual
03-04-2011, 02:34 PM
this is a forum with so called professionals, not really the place for intra-professional jabs.

Good point.

khiro
03-07-2011, 12:03 PM
I agree with you canuckdc that sometimes it gets old to continually hear and read of jabs at our chosen profession. especially when we have put good time, energy and money into making it pay off for us emotionally and financially. but after so many yrs i don't fault the jabber anymore. i fault the DC profession for having such a hard time hammering out our identity. now you may disagree with me, and that is ok, but i do believe that beyond the doors of my own practice, the profession has and is suffering from an image and identity problem. the solution starts with education of the DC and the cce is trying to do that against stiff resistance from both the ACA and ICA. the closing of cleveland LA is a real good start as well.

and i don't pay any attention to UHSADOC anti-chiro statements, as he has already stated that he is in support of the evidence-based schools and that side of chiropractic. which is ok with me, but i go further to state that i am a supporter of the CCE recommendations, and that puts me on the edge of the profession.



khiro - this is a forum with so called professionals, not really the place for intra-professional jabs. Don't bow down to UHSADOC. We are all educated so the anti chiro comments are calculated not nieve like your farmer friend. I think chiros need to have some backbone ( no pun intended). this has been going on for half a century based on what happened the half of century before.

CARICOM-MED
03-07-2011, 05:13 PM
FAR from the truth :) and we both know it is true...too many diff to list....BUT,

compare DC scope, procedures & liability to MT, not far difference

Compare MD scope, procedures, specialities, subspecialities and liability to RN = HUGE diff.....ALSO, we love nurses, and we DO need more of them, MDs work in collaboration not so much competition with RNs...




By that logic, aren't MD's just glorified nurses?

AgActual
03-07-2011, 09:21 PM
compare DC scope, procedures & liability to MT, not far difference

I have taken courses in massage therapy (same ones the massage therapy students take), as electives, and i can tell you that isn't really true, at all. There is a bit of overlap but MTs aren't learning diagnosis, physical therapy, joint manipulation, nutrition, exercise therapy, taping, radiology, and their knowledge of anatomy and the basic sciences is very simplified.

The RN-MD comparison seems quite apt to me.

CARICOM-MED
03-08-2011, 04:06 PM
NPs follow the RN educational pattern
PAs follow the MD/DO educational pattern

If anything I can see the logic of PA to MD :)

Even so, cosider the in depth knowledge MD/DO education AND Residency....4+3 for FM, and in most specialities 4+5 years....(After BSc, today even many with MSc..)


I have taken courses in massage therapy (same ones the massage therapy students take), as electives, and i can tell you that isn't really true, at all. There is a bit of overlap but MTs aren't learning diagnosis, physical therapy, joint manipulation, nutrition, exercise therapy, taping, radiology, and their knowledge of anatomy and the basic sciences is very simplified.

The RN-MD comparison seems quite apt to me.

AgActual
03-10-2011, 06:55 PM
The problem is, I know that MDs and nurses are trained differently and that MDs know far more than nurses. However, you seem to think that massage therapists are on par with chiropractors in most respects, expect chiropractors get a fancier title. That is, of course, ridiculous.


NPs follow the RN educational pattern
PAs follow the MD/DO educational pattern

If anything I can see the logic of PA to MD :)

Even so, cosider the in depth knowledge MD/DO education AND Residency....4+3 for FM, and in most specialities 4+5 years....(After BSc, today even many with MSc..)

CARICOM-MED
03-13-2011, 12:53 PM
I know DCs get way more education than MTs, however, the public perception, insurance coverage, in addition to the limited ability to practice what you learn is what I'm talking about....personally I would recommend PA/NP>DC anyday, any time...at least these are secure professions, with guaranteed job oppotunities, great scope, and respected...

BTW:
I like DCs, I was a chiropractic patient myself, and felt great after getting a treatment, many of my friends are DCs, I had 3 DCs during med school, that became MDs, and so, I know much about what the profession is about, past history, and future...


The problem is, I know that MDs and nurses are trained differently and that MDs know far more than nurses. However, you seem to think that massage therapists are on par with chiropractors in most respects, expect chiropractors get a fancier title. That is, of course, ridiculous.

haishahlehaish
03-22-2011, 04:16 PM
If it helps, I graduated from SCUHS with a DC degree on DEC 2008. My class was of 100 at the beginning, and we ended up with about 70. Some of these students went to Cleveland due to the high level of difficulty of the examinations. The amount of memorization required and knowledge retention, especially for diagnostic skills classes were very demanding and quite challenging. What we were required to know for NMS diagnosis was very through and challenging. Constant testings every week. Man I loved it!
While on my junior year in clinic, we would receive the 2yr med students from LLU Med school to do rotations, practically observational and would get some lectures about what we do. I used to love asking them about anatomy and physiology cuz they knew jack! and biomechanics? forget about it! good kids though, I made good friends with several. The beautiful thing was the fact that they'd see that we concentrate well on something they lack. Thus, opening doors for working together in the future.
No mention of subluxation as a cause of dis-ease at all in any class. No dogma. Philosophy was taught as they taught me in undergrad: How to use your baloney detector and logical fallacies. This would open up to heated debates in class. A subluxation was synonymous to an incomplete articular dislocation, aberrant joint, fixation, dysarthritic lesion, articular dyskinesia, etc. basically, a motion segment in which alignment, movement integrity, or physiologic function are altered. Yet, contact between joint surfaces remains intact.
This straight-subluxation philosophy was available in clubs but not in academia. Rather, a philosophy of chiropractic was advocated, It was explained to us that the fact that there are several philosophies in chiropractic, thus, to mesh everything as 1 was unfair to the differing paradigms. The philosophy of chiropractic consists of treating the whole person using whatever means necessary, supported by evidence, to recuperate homeostasis before drugs or surgery was necessary. Subluxations are foreign to my training. Treatment is aimed at returning patients to as much of a healthy status as they may realistically achieve. Patients were to be screened to see if they were candidates for chiro care and to refer to an appropriate provider when needed and co-management of condition. Chiropractic care would consist of life style changes, including clinical diet and therapeutic exercise modifications, physical therapy, education, soft tissue and osseous manipulation when necessary to improve mechanical function. Manipulation books were from DCs and DOs, also from PTs for physiotherapy. Clinical nutrition and use of supplements (with their respective evidence of effectiveness levels) instructions were from standard dietitian books and taught by PhD dietitians: taking dietary history, make an assessment and a management plan for patients with outcome assessments. Professors (especially DCs) in diagnostic classes would encourage skepticism and scientific thought. No homeopathic or nutraceutical training, however.
Following grad, I worked for 1 year at a high volume practice that received ~60% referral from MDs, DOs, PAs, NPs. I was fortunate to see many conditions including some "zebras" there. Now I practice on my own; my income is in the 200,000/year. well, before taxes and overhead, but i take about 1/2 to almost over 1/2 of it depending on circumstances. New patients come without much advertisement efforts. Education is key.
Learning to manipulate different body types (especially big and fat meat-lover males) and mastering these skills have taken me years. I have done thousands of manipulations and there are still some challenging cases, I get much better results now than when I first graduated. It takes more than classes and internship to be good at CMT. I mean, to really move a stubborn joint, and get results. To discern the behavior between the different soft tissues, nerves.. to feel joints at their end range, knowing when something is not NMS...I love my profession.
I don't see how anyone (DOs, PTs, NDs) can be any good at it unless you have plenty, plenty of experience and practice. My 2 cents.
I'll see my DO/MD for a life/death condition, I'll see my ND/DC DABCI, for a chronic condition (non-fatal), my optometrist for my eyes, my DDS for teeth, my psychologist for mental health, my DC for performance and mechanical problems. I occasionally refer for PT because they will get reimbursed by my patient's insurance as I perform manipulation. Thank you for reading.

haishahlehaish
03-22-2011, 05:02 PM
In my class, everyone except 2 had a BSc and a few with Masters, 3 former med students of which 1 was an former osteopathic student. In other classes everyone I met had a BSc or BA or higher. Some were PTs. Some PhDs in biochem, physiology. No chiropractic schools can accept less than 3 yrs of undergrad or 90 semester credit units besides the prereqs.
I got to say, a PA is always overshadowed by an MD degree and authority even if there is a 55 yr old PA who knows more by experience than a 30 yr old MD. It is a profession to be a side kick. An NP has autonomy at least. But a PA is a closed road. and if one is to change its mind, it must return all the way back to the beginning to attend med school. That sucks! which is why UHSA is great because it gives professionals a chance to increase their knowledge and broaden their practice scope without making them waist life years. Thank you UHSA! I don't care what they say about you!

CARICOM-MED
03-24-2011, 08:07 PM
Anytime, thanks !
I think going DO/MD would be ideal for DCs if you have the time & $$$ & Motivation
But, PA>NP, consider the DC training (similar basic sciences-Not similar to nursing training.) after all DCs are trained as Chiropractic Physicians right ?

Cheers :)


In my class, everyone except 2 had a BSc and a few with Masters, 3 former med students of which 1 was an former osteopathic student. In other classes everyone I met had a BSc or BA or higher. Some were PTs. Some PhDs in biochem, physiology. No chiropractic schools can accept less than 3 yrs of undergrad or 90 semester credit units besides the prereqs.
I got to say, a PA is always overshadowed by an MD degree and authority even if there is a 55 yr old PA who knows more by experience than a 30 yr old MD. It is a profession to be a side kick. An NP has autonomy at least. But a PA is a closed road. and if one is to change its mind, it must return all the way back to the beginning to attend med school. That sucks! which is why UHSA is great because it gives professionals a chance to increase their knowledge and broaden their practice scope without making them waist life years. Thank you UHSA! I don't care what they say about you!

hopefuldoc74
03-30-2011, 07:54 PM
-Chiropractors were once anti-vaccination advocates but these days, most chiropractors believe in vaccinations. Most surveys on this subject are rather old. In 1995, about 37% of American chiropractors were opposed to vaccinations and in 2002, about 27% of Canadian chiropractors were opposed. Many chiropractors are still opposed to vaccination and the rate is too high, however, it is certainly not the majority.

Attitudes on immunization: a survey of American ch... [J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 1994 Nov-Dec] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7884327)
[FONT=Verdana]
Attitudes toward vaccination: a survey of Canadian... [CMAJ. 2002] - PubMed result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12074119)


Ok, I read your post with interest a few days ago, thought about it and re-read it today. This one point of yours I felt needed extra discussion and I read the reference in the Journal of Manipulative Physiology. Have you read the article? You brush the anti-vaccination concern off as if it meant nothing to Chiropractors today. That is hardly the case, according to this study. Fully one-third of the survey participants believe that there is no scientific evidence that vaccinations prevent disease. Half of Chiropractors surveyed officially opposed the American Public Health Association policy on childhood vaccinations.

And those results are just for the Chiropractors surveyed... How high is too high of a percentage of a profession to ignore the decades of peer-reviewed scientific evidence of the efficacy of something as fundamental as vaccines? You state that it is not the majority. I'm not sure. In this one study, only 1% of U.S. Chiropractors were surveyed and, of those, 46% officially opposed the APHA vaccination policy. That's a very fine line between majority and non.

abinclane
05-31-2011, 04:38 AM
I am not studying to be a chiropractor, but I love going to one. It took my carpal tunnel away and now I can work comfortably. That is thanks to my chiro! :)

thebonecrusher10
05-31-2011, 09:23 AM
@AgActual: I think of a couple of the points you bring up in the original post are a little off, and you dont' site any references on a few of them.

Also, I agree with you regarding Botnik quite a bit. We as a profession must be critical of our flaws to move forward, but not being successful in this field has some personal reasonability as well. Also, while we should be critical, we also have to be objective. I find Botnicks general tone as well as much of the work written by Homola and others to be hype. There is so much bias in their writting that their message gets lost (at least for me). I think if they wrote more objectively and without the emotion, they'd reach a larger audience.







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