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CARICOM-MED
09-22-2010, 12:46 PM
http://www.nbce.org/ccat/index.html (http://www.nbce.org/ccat/index.html)

Chiropractic College Aptitude Test: CCAT

What CCAT Provides
CCAT provides the prospective student and his/her chiropractic college with measures of ability in mathematics, biology, chemistry, and physics.
The National Board of Chiropractic Examiners (NBCE) specifically designed CCAT as a tool for the student, in conjunction with academic counseling, to use in making academic decisions.
CCAT is an important tool for a prospective studentís benefit because the results are highly correlated with success in chiropractic college.
How CCAT Is Used

CCAT results are used in a variety of ways that help ensure success in a chiropractic curriculum. Through early identification of superior performance or potential risk factors associated with academic difficulty, the student and an academic advisor can efficiently and proactively bolster his/her pre-chiropractic academic preparation, or after enrollment in chiropractic college, take specific classes to enhance academic success.
Why CCAT?


Would you like to know if you have the problem-solving and quantitative reasoning skills necessary for successful completion of a rigorous scientific curriculum?


Would you like to know if a particular subject area requires additional preparation?


Before you commit to student loans, would you like an assessment that correlates with successful completion of chiropractic college course work?
How to Prepare for CCAT

You will be asked to provide some demographic information concerning the university or college you attended, including:

Private or public institution
2 or 4 year program
Degree obtained
Total semester hours completed
Overall GPA
Number of hours completed and GPA for:

Biology
Chemistry
Physics
Mathematics
Language Arts

You will be asked to respond to 100 multiple-choice questions in the areas of mathematics, biology, chemistry and physics. In each of these areas you will be asked basic questions. These are subjects that you have likely studied in your undergraduate courses. In many cases, your high school course work in these subjects will provide you the necessary background to perform satisfactorily on the exam.
CCAT Specifications


CCAT is a Web-based, multiple-choice examination.
CCAT will require approximately one and one half hours to complete.
Immediately upon completion of CCAT you will receive a score report.
A score report is sent to the chiropractic college that makes arrangements for your assessment.
How to Register for CCAT

Contact the Enrollment Office at a chiropractic college to make arrangements for your assessment.

Forsaken38
09-22-2010, 09:57 PM
Hey to all, I will be taking this test in late November this year. So I will post my results along with my opinion of the test. :cool: Some have already taken the test in September, but I do not know how they did on it. Anyone who has anymore info or experience with this strange new creature, please let us all know!

CARICOM-MED
09-22-2010, 09:59 PM
Is it anything like the MCAT ? did you take the MCAT ?

Forsaken38
09-22-2010, 10:19 PM
I do not know as of yet, I have not taken the MCAT yet. I plan to do so later on. I have taken practice MCATs so I know kinda what it is like. Sorry wish I knew more to tell you. I can tell you I am studying the kaplan MCAT book I have to prepare, but I think it is going to be much easier than that. We shall see.:D

truvnhc
09-27-2010, 11:23 PM
Hey to all, I will be taking this test in late November this year. So I will post my results along with my opinion of the test. :cool: Some have already taken the test in September, but I do not know how they did on it. Anyone who has anymore info or experience with this strange new creature, please let us all know!

Why do you need to take this? I applied to Life university for D.C. and they don't require any test.

Forsaken38
09-28-2010, 06:40 AM
Many of the upper level schools that are more science based are using the CCAT as part of the admissions process. Once it has enough statistical evidence to be proven an accurate measure of student's success, everyone will have to take it. The NCBE is trying to help move the profession forward by raising standards. I am glad they are doing it, but I wish I didn't have to take it.

CARICOM-MED
10-15-2010, 06:10 PM
Think the NDs will soon start to implement the MCAT...
So far, MD/DO/DPM programs are all using the MCAT as a screen.


Many of the upper level schools that are more science based are using the CCAT as part of the admissions process. Once it has enough statistical evidence to be proven an accurate measure of student's success, everyone will have to take it. The NCBE is trying to help move the profession forward by raising standards. I am glad they are doing it, but I wish I didn't have to take it.

canuckdc
10-15-2010, 09:02 PM
Naturopathic MCAT Examination : Chiropractic CCAT Examination
I read that the Naturopathic profession is also moving forward to adopt the MCAT as a screening tool.....why wouldn't the DC programs just adopt the MCAT ? instead of coming with something new like the CCAT ? I suppose they want to mirror the Dentist DAT exam ? and use the CCAT funds solely for the NBCE ?

So far, MD/DO/DPM programs are all using the MCAT as a screen.
Its a profession thats always wanted to be autonomous. Again they do not want to be swallowed up by the Medical profession

CARICOM-MED
10-18-2010, 07:42 PM
Why ? look at the DO and DPM ? they both enjoy high income, integration, hospital affilations etc...


Its a profession thats always wanted to be autonomous. Again they do not want to be swallowed up by the Medical profession

khiro
10-19-2010, 09:09 AM
in 1997 i met a fellow DC who was fully committed to leaving chiro after 7 yrs of practice; which he did in 2000 (took him 3 yrs to prepare to leave). after experiencing a slow but convincing downturn of revenue year after year (no matter how hard he worked or what he did) he "saw the handwriting on the wall". still its a big leap to go offshore i said. he replied, "i know that i am meant to be an md". he went on to explain how he knew several other DCs (all more experienced than he) who had already closed their practices. 2 of them had become teachers. in 2004 after he had finished med school and started his residency i asked him how easy was it to lock your chiro door for the last time. his reply was "easier than you would think." and "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". during all of those years i made good money (i was in a different state) so leaving was not on the front burner for me. this year has convinced me to go a different direction; which i am looking forward to. i have always wanted to coach so my change has been sealed. his change was to become an MD and he is practicing out west. i guess we lost our "purpose".





Its a profession thats always wanted to be autonomous. Again they do not want to be swallowed up by the Medical profession

canuckdc
10-20-2010, 03:47 AM
Why ? look at the DO and DPM ? they both enjoy high income, integration, hospital affilations etc...

Why?, I cant speak for the entire profession as every ones view is different. Its just a collective idea that most DC's don't want to be MD's or want integration. I think most DC's feel that integration would hinder their autonomous status rather than enhance their scope of practice. This does seem logical if you look at the current MD/ DC politics. Most MD's covet their status and will never share status with a chiro (or a physio). I don't know the history of the DO movement to mainstream medical. Will it work the same for DC's? Its hard to believe in this era of politics and money that it will. Most chiros these days I think feel at least they own what they do (the adjustment, manual therapy, manipulation or what ever they want to call it) and they don't want to give that away.

AgActual
10-20-2010, 05:42 PM
Well originally chiros didn't want to associate too much with MD's because chiropractors weren't licensed to practice medicine, which would have meant jail time if they started calling what they did medicine. Plus they weren't huge fans of blood letting or using large doses of mercury to treat any number of problems.

Of course this isn't 1900, so the fears of integration have shifted a bit. The main concern these days is that getting too cozy with the MD's will mean that chiropractors will become their subordinates and will only be able to practice under the supervision of an MD. Probably not a bad thing for some chros i have come across but the loss of the PCP privileges that chiros have would knock this profession down to the level of a technician. Any field that has been autonomous, for better or for worse, for over a century will fight tooth and nail to prevent that.

So the fear today is likely a loss of influence, autonomy, and money. In the coming years, we will likely see chiros continue to become more cooperative with medical doctors but anything that they see as harming the independence and the scope of practice of their field will be greatly resisted.



Why?, I cant speak for the entire profession as every ones view is different. Its just a collective idea that most DC's don't want to be MD's or want integration.

khiro
10-22-2010, 01:14 PM
being an autonomous profession is fine; its what we do (and don't do) as chiros that threatens most. its my thought that having such a narrow scope of practice going forward will lead to stagnation, and eventually isolation of the profession. it used to be argued about, but probably is a consesus today that we have reached that level of stagnation, and possibly recession. the DOs ARE autonomous. their own schools, boards and residencies speak to this fact. for me i see them as a gutsy bunch. now can anyone tell me how their transformation hurt them as a profession? did it hurt their patients? did it do harm anywhere? i have always said this, if all of the DOs truly and earnestly began adjusting their pts and put medication to a less role, then DCs could be out in a generation.

Drgeosprint
10-22-2010, 01:22 PM
hmm on a related note....Just yesterday I had to refer a WC patient to an md for a referral to see an occupational therapist. They would not accept a chiros rx only an md's.
The neanderthals in the health care profession try their best to prevent people from getting the best that is available. Now on the other hand a chiro who works for me swears up and down some MLM (multi level marketing) drink will save the world. Gawd help me!!!!

MDiwillbe
10-28-2010, 11:50 PM
All I can say is...
it is about time we implemented a test like this.
Of course, it is National.
They always had a good medical science program from what I understand.

canuckdc
10-29-2010, 05:46 AM
being an autonomous profession is fine; its what we do (and don't do) as chiros that threatens most. its my thought that having such a narrow scope of practice going forward will lead to stagnation, and eventually isolation of the profession. it used to be argued about, but probably is a consesus today that we have reached that level of stagnation, and possibly recession. the DOs ARE autonomous. their own schools, boards and residencies speak to this fact. for me i see them as a gutsy bunch. now can anyone tell me how their transformation hurt them as a profession? did it hurt their patients? did it do harm anywhere? i have always said this, if all of the DOs truly and earnestly began adjusting their pts and put medication to a less role, then DCs could be out in a generation.
So true Khiro, we would be in the soup line if they went back to their basics of adjusting.

CARICOM-MED
11-02-2010, 06:07 PM
soup-line ?? :)


So true Khiro, we would be in the soup line if they went back to their basics of adjusting.

canuckdc
11-02-2010, 07:02 PM
soup-line ?? :)
definition: to stand in line for soup as the result of unemployment. In this case a sarcastic innuendo....:rolleyes:

CARICOM-MED
11-02-2010, 09:20 PM
It is much easier to learn how to Rx, even use it in practice than to learn how to Adjust & apply it :)
Once you learn Pharm, it is fairly simple for the most part, and not as physically demanding as hands on.
DCs should integrate pharmacology into their scope if their training is on par with DOs, I would also push for at least 1 year in residency training. :)

Cheers,


being an autonomous profession is fine; its what we do (and don't do) as chiros that threatens most. its my thought that having such a narrow scope of practice going forward will lead to stagnation, and eventually isolation of the profession. it used to be argued about, but probably is a consesus today that we have reached that level of stagnation, and possibly recession. the DOs ARE autonomous. their own schools, boards and residencies speak to this fact. for me i see them as a gutsy bunch. now can anyone tell me how their transformation hurt them as a profession? did it hurt their patients? did it do harm anywhere? i have always said this, if all of the DOs truly and earnestly began adjusting their pts and put medication to a less role, then DCs could be out in a generation.

Forsaken38
11-21-2010, 09:51 AM
Ok guys, last week I took the CCAT at Cleveland, KC. The test was harder than I expected, but not as hard as I feared it might be. No it is not as hard as the MCAT practice tests. There is no written portion, or no long passages to read.

The test was very fast paced. I finished in 70min, and I am fast test taker. It required alot of calculations for math, Chemistry and Physics. The breakdown of the test was close to 30% biology, 25% Chemistry, 25% Physics and 20% math.

There were a handful(5-7) questions that were very easy. 30-40 questions required general subject knowledge; You know the answer or you don't, and there were 2-3 options that appeared to be right. The remainder of the test was critical thinking and knowledge application or calculation. No formulas were given. And there were several chem/physics problems that required them.

I was not given a raw score at the end, only a percentile score. 97th. I think the raw score values are still being determined.

The MCAT study guide, my college textbooks, and some online MCAT test prep helped me to do well on this test. It was a very good review, but I studied casually for 2 months, no cramming. High school course work would not be adequate to pass this test let alone do well on it. It is mid college level IMO.

I personally would like to see more questions and a longer testing time. 150-180 and 2.5 hours. And they need to increase the difficulty of the critical thinking portions, and remove the obviously easy questions.

I will be happy to answer any questions regarding the test. Hopefully this will help move the profession forward.:p

AgActual
11-21-2010, 01:52 PM
I will be happy to answer any questions regarding the test. Hopefully this will help move the profession forward.http://static.valuemd.com/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif I definitely second your hopes on what this could mean for chiropractic. Just about every doctoral program in this country has required some kind of entrance test for years. Definitely time for us to get on board. At minimum, it might increase our prestige just a little bit.

I do have one question. How are these tests going to affect admissions to Cleveland? Do you know if people with low scores are going to be rejected or was it just required that you take the test and the results don't matter right now, since this test is so new? In other words, was this just a trial run and the school wants to see what the test is all about or are they taking these results into account when making admission decisions?

CARICOM-MED
11-21-2010, 02:13 PM
Is the DC MCAT now required for all schools ? what about taking an organic chemistry class ? or having a BA/BSc ? are these also required ?
Just curious on what is required to become a DC across the board....

Thanks !!


I definitely second your hopes on what this could mean for chiropractic. Just about every doctoral program in this country has required some kind of entrance test for years. Definitely time for us to get on board. At minimum, it might increase our prestige just a little bit.

I do have one question. How are these tests going to affect admissions to Cleveland? Do you know if people with low scores are going to be rejected or was it just required that you take the test and the results don't matter right now, since this test is so new? In other words, was this just a trial run and the school wants to see what the test is all about or are they taking these results into account when making admission decisions?

AgActual
11-21-2010, 03:01 PM
Is the DC MCAT now required for all schools ? what about taking an organic chemistry class ? or having a BA/BSc ? are these also required ?
Just curious on what is required to become a DC across the board....

Thanks !!

I don't know if all schools require the CCAT thing yet. If you look at National's website, they don't mention it as an admission requirement, which makes me wonder if it is being pilot tested right now instead of actually used to assess applicants.

I think in think in the last few years, more schools have been requiring a bachelors degree. National was the only one for years, every other school required that one had 3 years (90 hours) of undergraduate education which had to include specific classes. They seem to be phasing that out though and instead requiring that everyone has a bachelors degree.

And all of the schools except Sherman has the same required undergraduate classes. And here they are



6 semester hours of English language skills
3 semester hours of Psychology
15 semester hours of Social Sciences/Humanities
6 semester hours of Biological Sciences with labs
12 semester hours of Chemistry (6 hours of general chem and 6 hours of organic or biochemistry)
6 semester hours of Physics (3 hours of which can be from a statistics course)

Forsaken38
11-21-2010, 11:02 PM
@agactual I was under the impression that if someone did not pass the test that they would have a counselor talk with them to consider their options.

I do not know how it will effect admissions/ acceptance at Cleveland. I think it is still in the infant stages. The NCBE "absorbed the cost" of the test so it was free for us this time. I do think you might be right about the trial run this time around.

@uhsadoc not all schools are implementing this test yet. They are still trying to determine if it is an accurate measure of the student success rate.

CARICOM-MED
11-22-2010, 03:59 PM
Why not just adopt the MCAT like the DO or DPM did ?
it makes way more sense, than to re-invent the wheel :)
In the meantime, only selected DC programs require a BSc or BA programs, some with/without pre-reqs...and GPA from 2.5 and up....also some do require interview others don't....?!?!

My suggestion:

BSc with the core 5 science pre-reqs
GPA 2.75 as minimum
Adopt the MCAT
Interview as requirement


@agactual I was under the impression that if someone did not pass the test that they would have a counselor talk with them to consider their options.

I do not know how it will effect admissions/ acceptance at Cleveland. I think it is still in the infant stages. The NCBE "absorbed the cost" of the test so it was free for us this time. I do think you might be right about the trial run this time around.

@uhsadoc not all schools are implementing this test yet. They are still trying to determine if it is an accurate measure of the student success rate.

Forsaken38
11-25-2010, 06:36 PM
BSc with the core 5 science pre-reqs
GPA 2.75 as minimum
Adopt the MCAT
Interview as requirement


Well, I agree with some of this. B.S. degrees are still preferred over other applicants and the pre-reqs are the same as at most med schools anyway. The GPA language should be changed though, Say something like > or = 2.75 is given preference. Some med schools accept applicants with gpa's less than that if mcat scores and other things are high enough. The MCAT will probably never be adopted, just like everybody else has said they lose the autonomy. I don't think they will want to place themselves under that standard.
The interview should be a requirement. I think it would help to weed out some of the poor applicants. Every other Doctoral/First professional program in the country has an interview, right. We should too. When I applied I was told it might be a requirement. I think they do interview some applicants, I am just not sure what criteria is followed to determine the necessity.

Happy THanksgiving to all!

Drgeosprint
11-25-2010, 08:44 PM
Interview.....bah!!!! I have attended a few interviews for medical schools (btw I am 2 for 2 in the acceptance department) What were they looking for???? Certainly it was not to weed out. Mostly I believe it was to see if one, I was real and two if I could conduct myself as an adult. Almost anyone can prepare themselves to pass an interview. You want to see if an applicant is a good candidate? Then shadow a candidate for a week at work and play. Then, and only maybe then you can see a glimpse of who that person is.

CARICOM-MED
11-28-2010, 07:55 PM
My 5 "GREAT" Rules of Professional Application

(DRGSPRINT) I strongly disagree :)

My idea is the "GREAT" Principle of any applicant must follow, (just made this mnemonic for you guys, hopefully it will "sink" in and become a recommendation for future DCs ....

if "DCs" want to be accepted as equal to DOs or MDs....

GPA: Most require at least 3.0 these days
References: LOR X3
Evaluation (Interview): ALL require phone or in person !
Academic Degree: BA / BSc in later stages even MD/MPH etc.
Test: MCAT-LSAT-GMAT-GRE-USMLE etc...

Good Luck to you all :)



Interview.....bah!!!! I have attended a few interviews for medical schools (btw I am 2 for 2 in the acceptance department) What were they looking for???? Certainly it was not to weed out. Mostly I believe it was to see if one, I was real and two if I could conduct myself as an adult. Sociopaths could easily pass the interview. You want to see if I am a good candidate? Then shadow me for a week at work and play. Then, and only maybe then you can see a glimpse of who and what I am. Everything else is just a velvet glove jerk off.

AgActual
11-28-2010, 09:18 PM
But lets also not forget that chiro school admissions are non-competitive. If you meet the minimal standards, you are in. Very few professional programs do that and even many undergrad programs are competitive. I remember i was looking at the law school at the University of Illinois. The minimum GPA was a 2.2 to apply. No one with a GPA that low would actually get in but if you meet the minimum GPA at a chiropractic college, its all good.

The issue i see here are people that i knew in the first semester or two that met the minimum standards, got in, but couldn't keep up. I knew a guy that failed all but one class his first semester, was given the option to repeat the courses he failed, he did but failed them all again. After that, the school thanked him for trying and then kicked him out. If the school was a bit more selective, he might have been sent a rejection letter and he wouldn't have wasted nearly a year of his life and about $15,000 in tuition.

I have to believe that being a bit more discriminating in their acceptance practices than simply requiring a mediocre undergraduate GPA and $50 for an application fee may be warranted. At minimum it would save some people the heartbreak of failing out, as well as thousands of dollars in lost tuition.

AgActual
11-28-2010, 09:39 PM
Test: MCAT-LSAT-GMAT-GRE-USMLE etc...

Last year I read an article that talked about ways to reform chiropractic education. The authors recommended that chiropractors take the path that podiatrists took in the 1960's to gain legitimacy. One of the key points the article made was the when the podiatry schools started requiring the MCAT and after that the number of applicants to podiatry schools increased.

One thing I have wondered since is if any students thinking about chiropractic school are turned off by the fact that chiro schools have never required (until now) standardized tests for admissions. Someone looking at grad school would see that chiropractic is just about the only one that doesn't require any test, it could have reduced the legitimacy of chiropractic college. It could make it seem like the schools are diploma mills or something. Who knows how many good candidates for chiropractic college have been given up on the idea by the fact that the schools require no tests?

Drgeosprint
11-29-2010, 12:28 PM
AgActual You conclusion that applications increased to podiatry school because of requiring the MCAT test seems a bit thin. You also might check into insurance reimbursements for example. Or the fact that typical MD's of that era were a bit overwhelmed with other factors such as lack of foot specialists. A standardized test such the MCAT provides a basis for selection. As a predictor of who makes a good physician, maybe not so much. As a predictor who can finish the program yes. Frankly I would love to see physicians in the US meet the quality standards of countries whose health rankings (WHO) are not so abysmal. US ranks somewhere in the 30th range. If there was an "outcome standard of care test"....now that would be something. How many US MD's do you think would participate???

AgActual
11-29-2010, 01:10 PM
AgActual You conclusion that applications increased to podiatry school because of requiring the MCAT test seems a bit thin. You also might check into insurance reimbursements for example. Or the fact that typical MD's of that era were a bit overwhelmed with other factors such as lack of foot specialists

Certainly it wasn't the only reason. However, applications for admission increased quite a bit when the schools began to require stricter standards for admission and one of the big things they did was require the MCAT. The most likely explanation I heard for that was increasing the standards of admissions increased the legitimacy of podiatry schools which caused more grad school applicants to take podiatry seriously. But you are correct, the rise of podiatry was multifaceted but I still maintain, as do many other people out there, that increasing the admission standards was part of that increased interest in podiatry school.


A standardized test such the MCAT provides a basis for selection. As a predictor of who makes a good physician, maybe not so much. As a predictor who can finish the program yes

True enough. I personally have never been a fan of standardized testing. In my psychology days we went over this topic many times. They certainly can weed out people that are not right for graduate school, whether that is med school, law school, some sort of PhD program, or whatever. But they can also harm otherwise good candidates that are just not good at taking tests. Lets just say these tests have mixed results.

However, sometimes you have to play the game if you want to earn legitimacy and respect, something that chiropractic is certainly lacking in. And I know we pride ourselves on being independent but in some areas we are proud to a fault, one of which i think are the admissions standards. How does it look to outsiders when our field is just about the only one that still doesn't require any sort of admissions test for a doctoral program? Not to mention the other below average standards. Sure adding a test isn't going to impress the people that already hate us and think this field hasn't changed in 110 years, but what about those on the fence about chiropractic?

If you knew little about this field a few years back and looked at the admission requirements for chiropractic school, they would seem like a joke. It was just a mediocre GPA, some gen ed courses, and 3 years of undergrad education. But in a few years, those standards will end up on par with other professional programs and that will be one less thing that will make people feel uneasy about chiropractic.

Drgeosprint
11-29-2010, 02:37 PM
The admissions standards for chiropractic years back and even now are still considered low in comparison to most US medical schools. However, correct me if I am wrong, Harvard will look at non science candidates with as little as a two year degree. The medical profession got a huge boost in the early sixties due to political maneuvering. They essentially "outlawed" anyone who was not playing their "game". Part of the lawsuit against the MD's (which Wilk prevailed) was the fact that it was a monopoly. In addition, when I was in school the American Cancer Society would not let us use their education materials for training doctors. Also many early chiros got thrown in jail for practicing medicine without a license. I can easily understand why even to this day that chiro's are not happy to "join" the crowd. The continuing ignorant discrimination against chiros is partly what keeps the profession down. Chiropractors for the most part have always wanted to be an entry portal to the health care system. How are the MD's going to utilize chiros when the majority of MD's do not understand basic neuropathophysiology? At least, even as a lay person I understood the basic role of medicine. Case in point: Early DO's in the state of California were given the option to turn in their DO degree to receive a MD degree. The only stipulation was that they drop the Andrew Taylor Still model of osteopathy. After many years have passed look at what the osteopaths are starting to emphasize. Another point is that chiros have been authorized to practice in the military. Decades have passed with very limited/no inclusion. Chiros did not want to lose their autonomy to a group of people who only care about their own interests. Will testing change that? More likely time and exposure to outcome based therapy will.

khiro
11-29-2010, 02:50 PM
is dependent on education b/c you can only expand your scope of practice through education; and then legislative changes to your scope law.

when i was applying (1982)to TCC i only needed 60 semester hrs i am almost sure with the same prereq except no physics. i was paying my own way through college, had no guidance and ended up going into chiro college with 3 yrs of good credits but no bachelors degree and no physics. after i got out i started my career with a jerk with low self esteem. one day i decided to go and join the army. surely they would take me. i had 3 yrs college and was a doctor!! officer for certain. they did offer me a rank of private b/c they did not recognize chiros; and i did not have a bach. degree or rotc. i didn't take them up on their offer but it did show me what others in power can and do think of the DC degree. it was but one of several instances of embarassment with the DC degree. later the DOD had to start taking the DC degree and try and do something with them to make a fit with their model. the state of florida also started requiring applicants to have a bach degree before applying for licensure b/c not all chiro colleges were offering a bach. degree. most do now. i can not overly state how important it is to have a first class educational system in place with high standards and EXPANDING ROLES IN SCOPE OF PRACTICE. but it is a historic fact that the requirements have improved. i am not so interested in the ed req for admission but more so on the expansion of topics, residency etc once one is admitted. in other words if the current education of chiro college is going to be the same with an increased admissions requirements, then i would say poop on that. the students deserve more. give them more. and change the practice laws to reflect the education that they have. basically i want to see chiro GROW. not the individual docs in a handful of states with certain insurance interests, vitamin sales, MLM etc. i am talking about giving every chiropractor a real chance to have a meaningful career b/c of an expanded scope of practice with legislation to go with it. it can't be done?? well, then i would hope the future students would choose some other field that is progressive and not in limbo, and bypass chiro.

Drgeosprint
11-29-2010, 04:09 PM
khiro I must admit, an expanded scope of practice is very desirable. However, if say they passed the expanded scope tomorrow or even next year, how would DC's integrate with their medical counterparts and vice versus? It would be a bloodbath, without any additional training under the supervision of competent training program. Would chiros have to set up a competing health care system? Chiropractic produces people with a unique and necessary skill set. Is this to marginalized along with the basic tenant of the body heals itself given no impediments? Maybe chiros need a fifth year of classroom and a 12 month residency at a teaching hospital. I have additional interests that cannot be addressed by the DC degree alone. No degree is so encompassing that they have a "free" ride. If you need a **/BA degree you can get it online very inexpensively and accredited. Check out the very respectable LSU's distance learning program. The lack of a **/BA degree for the most part is a problem of chiros in the far past. Where do they go in the future? To tell future students look elsewhere for your education is not the answer. Chiropractic schools do a good job in educating people. The problem is what do you teach in the time alloted? Chinese medicine, acupuncture, more pt, how about nutrition? The school already teaches DACBR, DACBO, etc. Yet more education does not solve this. Integration is the key to acceptance and a decent living.

Drgeosprint
11-29-2010, 04:11 PM
please admins....the BA/Bscience is what I meant.

CARICOM-MED
11-29-2010, 05:12 PM
Yup,
GREAT Principle is what makes candidates even value the actual program, if your program is LOW GPA, NO FORMAL TEST, NO INTERVIEW then what's the value ?

BTW:
HUMANS seem to "want" what is HARDER to achieve FIRST= perceived value.... then leave what is EASY for later, since it will always be there for grabs :)

Chiro colleges / universities should Definately implement the "GREAT Principle", in order to establish a credibility, which is lacking, public utilization and acceptance !




khiro I must admit, an expanded scope of practice is very desirable. However, if say they passed the expanded scope tomorrow or even next year, how would DC's integrate with their medical counterparts and vice versus? It would be a bloodbath, without any additional training under the supervision of competent training program. Would chiros have to set up a competing health care system? Chiropractic produces people with a unique and necessary skill set. Is this to marginalized along with the basic tenant of the body heals itself given no impediments? Maybe chiros need a fifth year of classroom and a 12 month residency at a teaching hospital. I have additional interests that cannot be addressed by the DC degree alone. No degree is so encompassing that they have a "free" ride. If you need a **/BA degree you can get it online very inexpensively and accredited. Check out the very respectable LSU's distance learning program. The lack of a **/BA degree for the most part is a problem of chiros in the far past. Where do they go in the future? To tell future students look elsewhere for your education is not the answer. Chiropractic schools do a good job in educating people. The problem is what do you teach in the time alloted? Chinese medicine, acupuncture, more pt, how about nutrition? The school already teaches DACBR, DACBO, etc. Yet more education does not solve this. Integration is the key to acceptance and a decent living.

AgActual
11-29-2010, 05:36 PM
Drgeosprint, I don't think anyone here was arguing that all of the hatred of chiropractic is our fault. I have seen many, many people that disliked chiropractors for nonsensical reasons. As i said earlier today, there are many people, even medical doctors, that think chiropractic is 100% the same today as it was in the early 1900's. You also have those that make things up about chiropractors, ignore research that shows the benefits of chiropractic, and criticize us for things that every other profession does too. So of course it isn't all our fault.

Then again we can't blame all of our shortcomings on conspiracies from the AMA or other health care organizations. No one is forcing us to use pseduoscientific concepts like applied kinesology or homeopathy. No one is forcing chiropractors to over use x-rays or act suspicious of vaccinations or to use manipulation to treat problems it has never been designed to treat or use high pressure sales tactics or as we have been talking about, have lax admissions standards.

Yes, some people are lying a-holes that just want to see chiropractic die and that isn't our fault. However, this field has plenty of problems that are purely internal. Those are the things that I believe we should be working on.

CARICOM-MED
11-29-2010, 07:31 PM
HOPEFULLY THE NEW GENERATION OF EBM DCs, WILL CLEAN THE ACT OF 100 YEARS OF PSEUDO QUACKS, AND Distant themselves from current "Straight" DCs.

And yes, the majority of us MDs believe most DCs are indeed Quacks, however we are learning the differences between graduates of certain schools, since we often get HORRIBLE SUBLUXATION "reports" from the "subluxation stations" from DCs indicating they treated T5-8 subluxations for this patient's acute ashthma and at the bottom it says:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Dr. Quack Mickey Mouse"
"Palmer Graduate"

vs...
Real evidence based report of another DC from NUHS or CMCC that states, they did soft tissue work, included Ultrasound, ICE with IFC and rehab specific exercises for acute lower back sprain strain, with correlated hypomobile L3-4, L5-S1 segments, that improved with manipulation.

They are both "Chiropractors" however one is clearly a quack and the other talks like a physician :)

Cheers,



Drgeosprint, I don't think anyone here was arguing that all of the hatred of chiropractic is our fault. I have seen many, many people that disliked chiropractors for nonsensical reasons. As i said earlier today, there are many people, even medical doctors, that think chiropractic is 100% the same today as it was in the early 1900's. You also have those that make things up about chiropractors, ignore research that shows the benefits of chiropractic, and criticize us for things that every other profession does too. So of course it isn't all our fault.

Then again we can't blame all of our shortcomings on conspiracies from the AMA or other health care organizations. No one is forcing us to use pseduoscientific concepts like applied kinesology or homeopathy. No one is forcing chiropractors to over use x-rays or act suspicious of vaccinations or to use manipulation to treat problems it has never been designed to treat or use high pressure sales tactics or as we have been talking about, have lax admissions standards.

Yes, some people are lying a-holes that just want to see chiropractic die and that isn't our fault. However, this field has plenty of problems that are purely internal. Those are the things that I believe we should be working on.

khiro
11-30-2010, 11:12 AM
khiro I must admit, an expanded scope of practice is very desirable. However, if say they passed the expanded scope tomorrow or even next year, how would DC's integrate with their medical counterparts and vice versus? It would be a bloodbath, without any additional training under the supervision of competent training program. Would chiros have to set up a competing health care system? Chiropractic produces people with a unique and necessary skill set. Is this to marginalized along with the basic tenant of the body heals itself given no impediments? Maybe chiros need a fifth year of classroom and a 12 month residency at a teaching hospital. I have additional interests that cannot be addressed by the DC degree alone. No degree is so encompassing that they have a "free" ride. If you need a **/BA degree you can get it online very inexpensively and accredited. Check out the very respectable LSU's distance learning program. The lack of a **/BA degree for the most part is a problem of chiros in the far past. Where do they go in the future? To tell future students look elsewhere for your education is not the answer. Chiropractic schools do a good job in educating people. The problem is what do you teach in the time alloted? Chinese medicine, acupuncture, more pt, how about nutrition? The school already teaches DACBR, DACBO, etc. Yet more education does not solve this. Integration is the key to acceptance and a decent living.

Drgeosprint; you are right in that scope can not be expanded without education being in place. so if chiro colleges had expanded 20 yrs ago to include pharm; injections, etc. i would not be able to do those procedures (b/c my education did not include them) however my colleague down the street who graduated 5 yrs ago could; IF the scope law of florida was changed to include those procedures. you are also right in that integration is the key. but very few outsiders are interested in integrating with the current chiro model. chiro must change to fit the medical model. what does a chiro look like? if you were a pt would you go to you? for what conditions? my ideal chiro is a spinal care physician. what could s/he do? whatever the spinal condition requires including drugs, therapy, etc. yes i am placing the patient before the profession. but that is my thought and i am sure a point of pain for some chiros. i believe that chiropractic (b/c of its spinal education) has the foundation to become much more than what it is now. now some will say that the profession comes first, that there should be restrictions on our education (no admission standards, no higher hours (LIFE, PALMER), no drug education, no injections, no therapy, etc) and therefore no choice but to have a restriction on scope of practice laws. even a restriction on a title (no physician and no DCM degree!). my stance is that in the near future if chiropractic can not remove the barriers of a limited scope and hence a limited role in the care of its pts; if it is too blind by philosophy or by any other reasons then i question its sincere effort to relief pain and suffering and have an obligation to future students to tell them to do something else. no student involved in a worthwhile profession should have deal with the inside bickering that has occured in chiropractic since before i begin my practice and is still going on. why would they? and who would think that they should?

and regarding the online bach degree i believe that the florida requirement helped excelsior make a fortune. i chose to get my degrees through traditional colleges but online was a life saver for a lot of students to be able to even apply for licensure.

Drgeosprint
11-30-2010, 11:57 AM
Whatever method a chiropractor choses to implement, drugs, manipulation, etc. The question begs: An md anywhere within the US can provide primary health care services. A chiro anywhere in the US is limited based upon state regulations. Florida allows blood draws, Michigan will not allow a chiro to use a bp cuff. Oklahoma allows injectibles, Oregon minor surgery is performed. Washington will not let you xray below the sacral level or adjust extremities. etc. (last I checked) If chiros are confused imagine what anyone else is? National boards have accomplished exactly what? If the profession is to move ahead I should be able to practice in a manner that allows me to play a primary role. I should have the choice to opt out of that role if I want. MD's do all the time (eg self restrictions on their practices) If I walk into a chiropractor and I have a medical condition then you best refer me to one! I do not want to hear I only recognize VSC's. I am not responsible for recognizing diabetic crises, CHF, MRSA etc. If you are to be a doctor (whatever kind) then get the education you need to bring someone up to speed. Personally I force people to hit the ER on the average of 2-3 times per week. My clinic I have all kinds of people who seek my care. From ENT problems, autoimmune disorders, orthopedic emergencies (I am a ringside physician at MMA and boxing) etc. Some I can deal with and some I move along. Spinal manipulative therapy is part of my practice. I can only tell you that using chiropractic alone is not in my or my patients best interests. They need the knowledge that I have and all the skills I possess to obtain relief. Personally, pain meds have a role that I would like to be able to implement. Honestly, I am scared to death of this as patients tend to shift there focus to them. I have too many patients on long term (years) of the 'pams. Many md's rely way too heavily on their pad and not enough on actually making the patient work for their own health. Very few people can practice the way I can, not because they cannot learn to but because they do not chose to. Where is chiropractic going??? Dunno, they have been discussing this for as long as I remember. Not much has been resolved.

Drgeosprint
11-30-2010, 12:14 PM
UHSADOC Point taken about report writing. The trouble is that there is a medical format and a chiropractic format. To get a bit persnickety, The average MD does not understand that a medical subluxation does not equal a chiro subluxation. The chiro however does. The fact is that MD's refuse to adjust their vocabulary and wants to force their standard on another. Your example was to be fair pretty graphic. However, remember that chiro subluxation is an ICD 9 code, a diagnostic code and is defined as such. That one who performs a service, US, Infrared, laser, manipulations, etc is a CPT code. Two totally different things. One for dx and the other for tx. btw chiros in the medicare system are only allowed to dx and tx for chiropractic subluxations.

CARICOM-MED
12-01-2010, 10:25 PM
There is only one format, proper clinical format !
You either think like a doctor or like a quack :)


UHSADOC Point taken about report writing. The trouble is that there is a medical format and a chiropractic format. To get a bit persnickety, The average MD does not understand that a medical subluxation does not equal a chiro subluxation. The chiro however does. The fact is that MD's refuse to adjust their vocabulary and wants to force their standard on another. Your example was to be fair pretty graphic. However, remember that chiro subluxation is an ICD 9 code, a diagnostic code and is defined as such. That one who performs a service, US, Infrared, laser, manipulations, etc is a CPT code. Two totally different things. One for dx and the other for tx. btw chiros in the medicare system are only allowed to dx and tx for chiropractic subluxations.

Drgeosprint
12-02-2010, 12:13 PM
UHSADOC Meh, actually the soap format is a watered down version of the pt's protocol. The reports that I receive from referring md's are pretty well lets just say consists of cc, and what they want me to do. Very little if any hx, prior tx, and or special considerations. One sent me a script that listed just upper back pain. Really??? Too many patients come to me with 3" thick folders of past treatments/tests. The value of such history typically borders on the low end of things. What does amaze me, is that as the patient doctor shops, each physician seems to mimic what the other says. Report writing on either side is a hit or miss affair. On the other hand I work with one MD who could be a best selling author. His reports are absolutely sublime.

studentDC
01-16-2011, 04:48 PM
But lets also not forget that chiro school admissions are non-competitive. If you meet the minimal standards, you are in. Very few professional programs do that and even many undergrad programs are competitive. I remember i was looking at the law school at the University of Illinois. The minimum GPA was a 2.2 to apply. No one with a GPA that low would actually get in but if you meet the minimum GPA at a chiropractic college, its all good.

The issue i see here are people that i knew in the first semester or two that met the minimum standards, got in, but couldn't keep up. I knew a guy that failed all but one class his first semester, was given the option to repeat the courses he failed, he did but failed them all again. After that, the school thanked him for trying and then kicked him out. If the school was a bit more selective, he might have been sent a rejection letter and he wouldn't have wasted nearly a year of his life and about $15,000 in tuition.

I have to believe that being a bit more discriminating in their acceptance practices than simply requiring a mediocre undergraduate GPA and $50 for an application fee may be warranted. At minimum it would save some people the heartbreak of failing out, as well as thousands of dollars in lost tuition.

I completely agree with this! There are some people in my class who really do not have the calibre/attitude/determination to be a doctor. For the sake of their future patients, I think it is better that they are not licensed. There are some very dedicated teachers at my Chiro school and I really think it's a waste of their time to do remedial help for people who are minimally qualified. I guess it's at an expense of having a school that is heavily funded by tuition and admissions is very aggressive for their recruitment.

When I looked into NYCC/Logan, both schools send me at least 5-6 mails enticing me to join one of their campus events, contact a current student, read letters from current students, etc... I recently saw a documentary on for profit education institutions (i.e. DeVry) and I remember thinking to myself its similarities to Chiro school recruiters.







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