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Forsaken38
09-17-2010, 06:28 AM
Hello to all,
I am a beginning Chiro student, and I wanted to share a little about myself. I am new to the forums, but have been reading for a while now. I didn't take my undergrad work seriously, but I have matured over the last 4 years. I took a break from school to let my wife finish her M.S.N., and she is a Neonatal NP now. So it is my turn to go back to school, I chose Chiro because I wanted freedom to have a life and work on the preventative side of health care. The last 5 years in a hospital in various roles has made me rather cynical. I have a strong science background and want to run an allopathic EB practice. I am excited about the new legislation regarding Rx formulary and the intergration of services. I am hoping it leads to a greater acceptance of DC's as PCP's (hospital privledges, etc.)

I applied to Cleveland KC and got in provisionally. ( I need a psych course.) But after reading alot of posts here and other places I am concerned that it is not that great of a school. I picked it because I liked the area, the advisor was very nice to me, and they teach ddx.

Is Cleveland a good chiro school? And I know that NUHS, western states and texas CC are all good. Life, Sherman, etc. are not so good. What do you guys think?

CARICOM-MED
09-17-2010, 10:15 AM
Why didn't you apply to DO or MD Programs ?
you can pretty much have unlimited scope, and not worry about uncertain future, i.e. Rx, hospital privilages, etc...

Just think, for the $$$ you spend in Chiro college, you can probably get into an average or even good Carribean school, and practice as a full Physician.....and if you wish focus on preventive medicine....

You will have guaranteed job at the end of your 4 years, called residency...then you can practice in a group practice like myself or in a hospital....if you like the hands on approach, you can also consider DO programs, they are easier to get into than most MD programs in the US.....and you can learn how to manipulate etc...

With much respect to the Chiropractors here, the latter is only my opinion, I do value your place in healthcare, and I appreciate your input & collaboration.

Cheers,

khiro
09-17-2010, 12:50 PM
i can't even get to your question without first asking one. why not DO or MD? this is what i want you to do. with your wife a nurse and you having been around hospitals, find you a DO or MD who has a business model that includes preventive medicine. once you identify them, ask if you can shadow that office or specific doc. try and get a grasp of what preventitive med is from the allopathic side. i do not recognize chiro as a preventitive form of healthcare; maybe for the spine, but not internal. and i am not the only one who feels this way. the majority of policymakers do as well. prevent med is extremely important, and i think is going to become only more so. your area of interest is great, i just honestly don't agree with your route to get there.

btw; cleveland kc tuition is 90 k for the 10 trimester program. that is comparable to med or DO school. so finances shouldn't be a real deal breaker for you.

yes, i have a list of which schools are better, and which are worse; but i don't support anyone going into chiro so my list doesn't count.

i hope you really think about this matriculation into chiro college. best of luck to you.

khiro

Forsaken38
09-17-2010, 03:41 PM
I would consider applying to a DO program, but I don't have the gpa for it. 2.7. Like I said I wasn't serious with my undergrad. I also have shadowed many MD's and a DO. I do not want the lifestyle that goes with it. Family is my top priority and in a MD or DO program medicine has to be your top priority for several years or you will not make it. I have many friends who graduated college with me who are MD's now, but they get called at 3 in the AM and have to go when called.

Also, no offense to anyone here, but the older MD's kids I know didn't turn out so well. I want to be there for my kids. I am not interested in making six figures, or being well respected just because I am a MD/DO.

Working in healthcare for several years now (and this is just my opinion so take it at that, your experience may be different) I have seen a few patients come through the doors who genuinely need our help, but the majority of them (close to 75%) are hospitalized due to their own ignorance or apathy. They expect modern medicine to fix all their health problems and send them on their merry little way without thought or care for their own health. Now correct me if I am wrong but the majority of people who visit a chiro are at least proactive about their own health. They at least put some effort into helping themselves.

I am not against MD's or allopathy, I just don't want that type of lifestyle. Comments concerns, and rebuttals are welcome.

khiro
09-17-2010, 04:09 PM
yea, you're right on all of it. your gpa is low; but you could try to get in anyway. yea, the lifestyle is not like chiro; but you could set your own (i know a female MD that works 3 days only in a clinic. i bet you or your wife knows one like this). and yes, you do need to be there for your kids. don't know if you have any, but this is a big deal with me. as you have pointed out, the MD/DO program is really intense. pretty much medical trivia 24 hrs a day. not a lot of free time for the family, but it has been done. and of course, neglect or spoiling kids is a bad idea no matter where the money comes from. you're thinking right to keep this in check.

and now to the all important pt. this is where the money comes from. the sick ones give you all the money you want. bad habits and all. you're right again. most MDs see the same pt over and over for the same symptoms and complaints related to unhealthy habits. but wouldn't it be a real challenge to medically manage a preventative approach to care? i think the medical field is going to move more in this direction. at least the family doc is. i would say that chiro pts are more inclined to be proactive in their health. and in a lot of ways i have the best pts in the world, but they are smart and can compartmentalize their health as well. they are very familiar with the MD model and most while liking chiro, will bend their expectations to fit the MD model of care.

there are states where chiros can do very well b/c of state practice laws, employment insurance coverage, etc. if you decide to do chiro i would before enrolling, investigate what states and areas are favorable and decide if you could live in that state(s), and town. all states are not created equal for chiro. i have my reservations for the profession but know that there can be success stories. it sounds like you have done some thinking on this and i hope it works out well for you.

khiro



I would consider applying to a DO program, but I don't have the gpa for it. 2.7. Like I said I wasn't serious with my undergrad. I also have shadowed many MD's and a DO. I do not want the lifestyle that goes with it. Family is my top priority and in a MD or DO program medicine has to be your top priority for several years or you will not make it. I have many friends who graduated college with me who are MD's now, but they get called at 3 in the AM and have to go when called.

Also, no offense to anyone here, but the older MD's kids I know didn't turn out so well. I want to be there for my kids. I am not interested in making six figures, or being well respected just because I am a MD/DO.

Working in healthcare for several years now (and this is just my opinion so take it at that, your experience may be different) I have seen a few patients come through the doors who genuinely need our help, but the majority of them (close to 75%) are hospitalized due to their own ignorance or apathy. They expect modern medicine to fix all their health problems and send them on their merry little way without thought or care for their own health. Now correct me if I am wrong but the majority of people who visit a chiro are at least proactive about their own health. They at least put some effort into helping themselves.

I am not against MD's or allopathy, I just don't want that type of lifestyle. Comments concerns, and rebuttals are welcome.

Forsaken38
09-17-2010, 04:21 PM
Hey Khiro, Thanks for the quick responses. Just curious though, I see you are in NW Florida, where if I might ask. I lived in Pensacola for several years and was curious if I might know who you are.

devildoc8404
09-17-2010, 04:56 PM
I'm the son of a DC pursuing medical school in Europe. I recognize the value of chiropractic care and preventive medicine, and I also am keenly aware of the limitations inherent to the practice of a DC. These will not go away, nor (IMHO) should they. My brother is currently at Western States, and I am happy for him, and he will be a great chiropractor... but based solely on his knowledge base, he should not be anyone's primary care physician. He should work in concert with his patients' PCPs in order to optimize their health.

I would TOTALLY go DO if I were in your shoes, as it offers a greater scope of practice with the added OMM element that seems to appeal to you. Remember that you do not need to choose the lifestyle of the physicians you shadowed! I am certainly not planning to live the lives of the MDs and DOs I followed around. There are many options for preventive medicine-minded physicians, and they do not pre-suppose that your kids will turn out to be the second coming of the Philadelphia Eagle's head coach's brood.

I know several MDs who work part time, make a decent living wage, and are there for their kids. It's totally do-able. One of them is married to a lawyer, they both work part-time, and they have four kids who have mom or dad for them there every single day.

Just my .02, but if you look around you can find doctors doing all kinds of things. Being tied to a hospital practice is not the only option by any stretch. Well, except for durign residency... that sucks, but it is temporary.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide!

CARICOM-MED
09-17-2010, 08:45 PM
Agreed, DO is a great route, and that you should seriously consider your options, Many offshore MD programs, will grab you if you can pay the tuition, even if you only have 2.5 GPA, as long as you passed the pre-reqs....take the MCATs, and apply to DO programs as well, you never know ! work on your strengths in the meantime, volunteer work, and LORs....you still have a chance, if not consider other MD schools.....if you really like DC, then you can always return to it, if you don't or can't get in to MD/DO programs, but at least TRY !!!


I'm the son of a DC pursuing my MD/PhD in Europe. I recognize the value of chiropractic care and preventive medicine, and I also am keenly aware of the limitations inherent to the practice of a DC. These will not go away, nor (IMHO) should they. My brother is currently at Western States, and I am happy for him, and he will be a great chiropractor... but based solely on his knowledge base, he should not be anyone's primary care physician. He should work in concert with his patients' PCPs in order to optimize their health.

I would TOTALLY go DO if I were in your shoes, as it offers a greater scope of practice with the added OMM element that seems to appeal to you. Remember that you do not need to choose the lifestyle of the physicians you shadowed! I am certainly not planning to live the lives of the MDs and DOs I followed around. There are many options for preventive medicine-minded physicians, and they do not pre-suppose that your kids will turn out to be the second coming of the Philadelphia Eagle's head coach's brood.

I know several MDs who work part time, make a decent living wage, and are there for their kids. It's totally do-able. One of them is married to a lawyer, they both work part-time, and they have four kids who have mom or dad for them there every single day.

Just my .02, but if you look around you can find doctors doing all kinds of things. Being tied to a hospital practice is not the only option by any stretch. Well, except for durign residency... that sucks, but it is temporary.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide!

Forsaken38
09-19-2010, 04:53 AM
Well, I am looking at carib MD schools now. With a 2.7 gpa what schools should I be looking at? I have not taken the MCAT yet, but I plan to just for fun. A friend of mine got a 27M on his and we were pretty much lockstep in undergrad. Not that I will do the same but we were always pretty close. If I score mid-high 20's on MCAT, what schools should I apply to? I will apply to 1-3 schools. I have some volunteer work and other eca's that make me pretty well rounded. I work with enough MD's that I can get a few LOR's. I am already in a DC program though. I am about to relocate my family to attend Cleveland. I have never thought I had a very good chance to get in to a MD program so I never tried. If you guys think I have a chance, then I just may try it. I am thinking AUC, MUA, and maybe a third. Thanks for all the input.

devildoc8404
09-19-2010, 06:19 AM
Seriously, I would apply to DO schools (all of them) given your stats and your interest in therapeutic manipulation. However, if you are interested in Carib MD schools, as well, then apply to both. A 2.7 GPA will require decent MCATs and extracurriculars, but it is worth a try. I am not in the Carib, so I can't comment on what schools to choose -- I'll leave that to others with more hands-on experience.

CARICOM-MED
09-19-2010, 02:45 PM
Options:
Yes, if I were you, if you can't get into DO, then:
1. Apply to MSc or MPH programs, increase your GPA, & MCAT then reapply
2. if option 1 doesn't work out, the DC degree should be your final backup plan.
3. Another option which some are doing is starting the DC program, learning the basic sciences, and then re-applying to DO/MD Programs, they use the DC basic sciences as good prep for medical school.....this way you are not wasting time, you are in a program already which will reward you a degree at the end, but keep your focus on MD/DO.

Stick to the US Schools, as lately I hear so many cases of Med students from the Caribbean that can't even get clinical placements, ending up wasting valuable time....



Seriously, I would apply to DO schools (all of them) given your stats and your interest in therapeutic manipulation. However, if you are interested in Carib MD schools, as well, then apply to both. A 2.7 GPA will require decent MCATs and extracurriculars, but it is worth a try. I am not in the Carib, so I can't comment on what schools to choose -- I'll leave that to others with more hands-on experience.

AgActual
09-19-2010, 09:58 PM
leveland KC and got in provisionally. ( I need a psych course.) But after reading alot of posts here and other places I am concerned that it is not that great of a school. I picked it because I liked the area, the advisor was very nice to me, and they teach ddx.

Is Cleveland a good chiro school?

Well since i don't think anyone answered your specific question, i will have a stab at it.

Cleveland is a somewhat centrist school. They are still a subluxation based chiro school but not as focused on it as some others. It is certainly a better school than Sherman, Life, Palmer, and Parker but you will still get a heavy dose of subluxation theory and if you aren't a believer, it is going to feel like a lot of wasted time. It is going to be time that other schools, like National or Southern California would spend on nutrition, orthopedics, rehab, massage therapy, etc. Those will be far more practical lessons than learning about subluxations, in my opinion.

Keep in mind, most people outside of chiropractic have never heard of vertebral suluxations and from what i have seen, most people that are told they have a subluxation by a chiropractor tend to refuse "treatment" or go elsewhere for their real problem of concern. So if you don't believe in subluxations or if you do but you want to focus on MSK treatments, you will be fairly behind the curve once done with school. You will be more limited in what you can treat and what you can do.

However, if you do want to be a subluxation chiropractor then i am sure Cleveland is fine. Most of those schools are roughly the same.

Personally i wouldn't go to Cleveland if it was next door to my house. My feeling is that you would be better off with a bachelors degree than a D.C. from a subluxation school. You will end up with little practical knowledge and no one will take you seriously. My opinon is that you should either find something else to do or move to a town with a better chiro school.

AgActual
09-19-2010, 10:04 PM
And if you are at all interested, here is a list of schools i would highly recommend avoiding. Pretend these schools are infected with the plague.

Sherman
Life
Life-West
Palmer (all campuses)
Parker (both campuses)
Cleveland (both campuses)
Logan
New York College of Chiropractic

Really the only schools I would recommend going to would be

National
Western States
Canadian Memorial
Southern California

The rest range from mediocre to crappy

CARICOM-MED
09-19-2010, 11:19 PM
And if you want to work later on with MD/DOs also would advise you to consider only these 4 schools, more and more MDs are aware of the differences between various Chiro schools.....2 of my partners noticed that in their 15 years in practice, and would only recruit DCs from these top 4 :)..think Bridgeport is also pretty good...

Sounds like the top 4 Caribbean schools: AUC, SABA, SGU and ROSS, guess there is always "Top 4"

Now, Mind you it is all about the Doctor at the end, you can attend a bad school, but become a great physician or Evidence based DC...but, why play with probability and statistics...


And if you are at all interested, here is a list of schools i would highly recommend avoiding. Pretend these schools are infected with the plague.

Sherman
Life
Life-West
Palmer (all campuses)
Parker (both campuses)
Cleveland (both campuses)
Logan
New York College of Chiropractic

Really the only schools I would recommend going to would be


National
Western States
Canadian Memorial
Southern California

The rest range from mediocre to crappy

Forsaken38
09-20-2010, 01:45 AM
Thanks guys. I have heard the top 4 list before and some include texas Chiro as 5th. Cleveland as 6th or 7th. I am an evidence based man, I don't buy into chiropractic subluxation or the subluxation theory of disease. It has no proof. If something can't be reproduced, by definition, it is bad science. I have researched philosophy fairly extensively and even spoken to a liaison at Cleveland. I am told (I will see when I get there) that they teach subluxation as part of the history and philosophy of chiro. They also teach ddx and other evidence based/ science based courses. I am old enough that I am well grounded; I know what I believe and the why behind it. ;)

Geography has as much to do with where I go as philosophy. Cleveland is the closest school that was in the upper half of rankings that I found, and I couldn't find any negative comments about the school. (like people say about life, sherman, etc.) I agree with you AgActual, thanks for the info. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Maybe we can help shift the field toward evidence based practice. I definitely plan to get the Msc from National for Rx. I think this will help integrate services and open doors toward greater acceptance into the medical community.

Comments, Concerns, Questions, and rebuttals are welcome. :)

khiro
09-20-2010, 12:58 PM
but not too far away from there in one of those rare counties that stretches from the alabama line to the gulf of mexico. its the gulf, not the ocean (tourists kill me with that one as they all refer to the "guff" as the ocean!)

i have read UHSADOC replys and AgActuals as well. i agree with them.

you know this UHSADOC is a rare bird. he works as an MD but is still interested in mankind as a human being. interesting. i only wished that i had someone to offer me such wise advise in my younger days, but God only knows if i would have listened. don't sell yourself short. look into the MD/DO route. it won't be easy but keep trying. my old famdoc had a daughter that just had to follow her brother and dad into medicine. problem was she wasn't as smart as the applicants at the university of south alabama. she applied 3 times to get in (she didn't want to move so it was her only choice). they finally let her in and she a famdoc today.

i have lots of stories from my time in chiro that demonstrate the frustration of most DCs despite my seemingly successful practice. i honestly feel that if you are interested in health care you should look only to MD/DO, get your license and then practice whatever slant you want (wellness, preventative, sick, emergency room). the choices are endless with either of those degrees. a long road for sure.

khiro



Hey Khiro, Thanks for the quick responses. Just curious though, I see you are in NW Florida, where if I might ask. I lived in Pensacola for several years and was curious if I might know who you are.

AgActual
09-20-2010, 08:25 PM
Cleveland as 6th or 7thI don't know if it is that high up. I would rank them this way (probably not necessary but i don't feel like studying right now).

1. National
2. Canadian Memorial
3. Southern California
4. Western States
5. Texas
6. D'Youville
7. University of Bridgeport
8. Northwestern
9. New York
10. Logan
11. Cleavland
12. Palmer
13. Parker
14. Life West
15. Life
16. Sherman


Now you say that the school claims to no longer be subluxation based, which if true puts it a bit higher up on my list there, for what that's worth, but I haven't heard that Cleavland was no longer teaching subluxations. That would have been a radical shift in their philosophy from just 2 or 3 years ago. If true, great, that is the third largest chiro school in the country, but from what i know, as of not too long ago, they still were very much into it. I actually found the clinic websites of a few recent Cleavland graduates and they were mostly discussing subluxations, some other nonsensical chiro stuff, and one even claimed to treat dogs.

I dont' know, it isn't looking too promising to me. I would strongly advise you really look call around or something to people affilated with the school to check out the philosophy being taught there these days, before deciding to attend. I think they are still a subluxation school. I could be wrong, i haven't actually been to that school or anything, but i am very confident you would be highly disappointed if you went there.

Forsaken38
09-21-2010, 05:35 AM
Ok here's the good and the bad that I can find regarding cleveland. In 1999 there was a lawsuit against the college for not providing enough patients to 4th year interns of 1997. They claimed to have to go out and get family and friends to come in to the clinic to get their hours in. Yikes! move ahead 4 years. (I found this on Chiroweb) Cleveland opens a clinic at Truman Medical Center. More patients= lawsuit problem solved, right?
I also read some blogs of current and former students. I find an interesting trend at almost all Chiro schools. According to students, many of these schools, to there discredit, still teach the unproven "subluxation complex theory of disease" ;however, recent Cleveland students have said that the school also teaches that Chiro has to be deeply rooted in the sciences. They also say that all points of view are presented and you are told to use the philosophy that best works for you. So they still teach sublux but tell you only to use it if it fits your philosophy. I have to admit I am a little skeptical about the whole mess, but maybe since 2000 they have started to turn their ship in the right direction. It does seem to take some time to see what kind of Doctor they produce. If the newer hospital clinic didn't get into full swing until 2004-06 then we only have 1-2 years of new DC's to look at. Maybe they were not so great in the past, but I think that maybe the future is looking better for them. Get ready to change your rankings in a few years. JK ;)

Forgive me if I sound like I am defending them, I am not a proselyte. I am just presenting what info I have come across and my hopeful viewpoint of that info.

Comments, Concerns, and rebuttals are welcome:)

khiro
09-21-2010, 10:31 AM
i know of a cleveland 1996 grad that practiced only for a few yrs and then went to saba. today he is practicing as an MD in a southern state. other than that i know of nothing about cleveland; only chiropractic in the general sense. everyones' practice is different to some degree, but i can not overlook or ignore the trends. agactual thinks that chiro has already hit its low with oversupply of grads and that the future looks better. well, he is right with texas at least. i don't know about the rest of them. texas never put out a lot of grads anyway, not like the DC factories of palmer and life. but i certainly concur with his admonition of attending a strong science school. we have enough kooks.

AgActual
09-21-2010, 12:34 PM
recent Cleveland students have said that the school also teaches that Chiro has to be deeply rooted in the sciences. They also say that all points of view are presented and you are told to use the philosophy that best works for you. So they still teach sublux but tell you only to use it if it fits your philosophy.

Well all of the schools claim to be scientific. They certainly aren't going to say that they are the most pseduoscientific chiro school around. Sherman College only teaches subluxations, you don't learn anything else when it comes to diagnosis and treatment. However, Sherman claims to be a strong proponent of science and that their methods are based on science. But are they really? I think the lesson there is don't take claims by the school or the students at face value. Which schools are actually scientific and which aren't should be left to independent evaluation.

Now as for the "choose the system that works for you" that is generally not a good sign. You typically find that in the subluxation schools and they usually aren't talking about subluxation vs. non-subluxation chiro, they mean choose which subluxation system you like the most. If you dig deeper into this field you will find that there have been dozens of theories thrown out there over the decades when it comes to subluxations. All are conflicting and all are nonsense. For example, the people who believe in Palmer's notion of a subluxation say that it starts at the axis bone of the spine, so they have their HIO or upper cervical specific theories. Those that follow Logan's teaching believe that subluxations start at the sacrum and that is the area that needs to be adjusted. Others believe in the metric system, which is based on where spinal nerves go; others believe in sacro-occpital, which is too nonsensical explain; there is also the activator method, which says that subluxations can be found via leg length analysis.

The point is at Cleavland and schools like it, they teach you all sorts of subluxation based systems and they want you to choose the one that makes sense to you. That is how it is at every subluxation school. They will spend two years teaching you nonsense and then tell you to run with the nonsense you like the most.

Honestly, I don't think it is a good school to go to. Certainly you can make your own decisions, i am not trying to tell you what you can and can't do, and if you think it is your best option then pull the trigger but make sure you know what you are getting yourself into. I am not trying to be harsh or dismissive of your abilities to tell fact from fiction but in my opinon, there is very little that school would have to offer you, if you are a believer in scientific chiropractic. I think the odds of it ending well are very low.

khiro
09-21-2010, 04:29 PM
i never could mentally open up to exerting a light pressure near the sacral bone with one hand while rubbing the pts back with the other to release tension in the muscles so the spine can realign. maybe it was because the instructor was creepy.



Well all of the schools claim to be scientific. They certainly aren't going to say that they are the most pseduoscientific chiro school around. Sherman College only teaches subluxations, you don't learn anything else when it comes to diagnosis and treatment. However, Sherman claims to be a strong proponent of science and that their methods are based on science. But are they really? I think the lesson there is don't take claims by the school or the students at face value. Which schools are actually scientific and which aren't should be left to independent evaluation.

Now as for the "choose the system that works for you" that is generally not a good sign. You typically find that in the subluxation schools and they usually aren't talking about subluxation vs. non-subluxation chiro, they mean choose which subluxation system you like the most. If you dig deeper into this field you will find that there have been dozens of theories thrown out there over the decades when it comes to subluxations. All are conflicting and all are nonsense. For example, the people who believe in Palmer's notion of a subluxation say that it starts at the axis bone of the spine, so they have their HIO or upper cervical specific theories. Those that follow Logan's teaching believe that subluxations start at the sacrum and that is the area that needs to be adjusted. Others believe in the metric system, which is based on where spinal nerves go; others believe in sacro-occpital, which is too nonsensical explain; there is also the activator method, which says that subluxations can be found via leg length analysis.

The point is at Cleavland and schools like it, they teach you all sorts of subluxation based systems and they want you to choose the one that makes sense to you. That is how it is at every subluxation school. They will spend two years teaching you nonsense and then tell you to run with the nonsense you like the most.

Honestly, I don't think it is a good school to go to. Certainly you can make your own decisions, i am not trying to tell you what you can and can't do, and if you think it is your best option then pull the trigger but make sure you know what you are getting yourself into. I am not trying to be harsh or dismissive of your abilities to tell fact from fiction but in my opinon, there is very little that school would have to offer you, if you are a believer in scientific chiropractic. I think the odds of it ending well are very low.

Forsaken38
09-21-2010, 05:15 PM
Well all of the schools claim to be scientific. They certainly aren't going to say that they are the most pseduoscientific chiro school around.

I agree with this, Which is why I looked for students opinions. Being a student there is the only way we figure out how good a school is. Of course each school will say they are the best school, who wouldn't. The point is I want a science based program, but I can't get into the big 4 because of my gpa. And I don't want to move that far. Cleveland doesn't suck like sherman life or palmer. Based on all the intell I can find, it's in the middle somewhere with NW, Bridgeport, and D'Youville. :?
I think it is an ok school, Worse case scenario is I get there realize it sucks, realize you were right, and I will have to transfer. Facepalm. :confused: But like UHSADOC said a Good DC can come from a bad-mediocre school, I will be a great evidence based DC, no matter where I go. And who knows maybe in 5 years I will be on a carribean island somewhere studying very hard. Thanks for all the great perspectives, you guys really make people think about what they are doing.:)

CARICOM-MED
09-21-2010, 07:07 PM
Good luck to you, and if you can think it over about transferring to a DO/MD program, there are always job opportunities in medicine, unlike any other health care profession out there !


I agree with this, Which is why I looked for students opinions. Being a student there is the only way we figure out how good a school is. Of course each school will say they are the best school, who wouldn't. The point is I want a science based program, but I can't get into the big 4 because of my gpa. And I don't want to move that far. Cleveland doesn't suck like sherman life or palmer. Based on all the intell I can find, it's in the middle somewhere with NW, Bridgeport, and D'Youville. :?
I think it is an ok school, Worse case scenario is I get there realize it sucks, realize you were right, and I will have to transfer. Facepalm. :confused: But like UHSADOC said a Good DC can come from a bad-mediocre school, I will be a great evidence based DC, no matter where I go. And who knows maybe in 5 years I will be on a carribean island somewhere studying very hard. Thanks for all the great perspectives, you guys really make people think about what they are doing.:)

AgActual
09-21-2010, 07:37 PM
I can't get into the big 4 because of my gpa

I doubt that is true. When i applied, which wasn't too long ago, most schools required a 2.7 and if you met that, you were in. Remember, chiropractic admissions are not really competitive. They typically have more spots open than applicants, so if you meet the basic requirements, you should get that acceptance letter. But then again, you do say you are limited by location, so none of that really matters.

One option you could have is to go to Cleavland for the first three semesters/first year, do your basic sciences and in that time, if you find out distressing things about the school, transfer to a better chiropractic college. The first year is going to be roughly the same everywhere. It is tough for these schools to really mess up basic graduate biology courses. Even Life and Sherman would be roughly the same as National during the first year. In the second and third years are when things vary dramatically from one institution to another. If you transferred to a better school, you would probably come in as a forth semester student, so nothing would really be lost. That is the best option i can think of, involving actually attending Cleavland. Maybe you will find it is a good school after all but if not, you always have an exit strategy.


Cleveland doesn't suck like sherman life or palmer. Based on all the intell I can find, it's in the middle somewhere with NW, Bridgeport, and D'Youville

Well i wouldn't say it nearly as good as Northwestern or the U of B but that is all subjective and we have covered what i think about 10,000 times already, so i will move on.

You are right, it isn't the worst school out there. I have heard of far more shocking things going on at Palmer, Life, and Sherman than at Cleavland. If you go to Cleavland, most of us would tell you to tread carefully. If you were going to Life or Sherman, we would probably tell you that you are f*cking nuts. So maybe there is a difference between these schools. ;)

Forsaken38
09-21-2010, 09:06 PM
If you go to Cleavland, most of us would tell you to tread carefully. If you were going to Life or Sherman, we would probably tell you that you are f*cking nuts. So maybe there is a difference between these schools. ;)


True enough. This has been my position all along. And yea, I am glad to hear that the first 3 semesters are pretty much the same elsewhere. I will tread carefully;) but if I need to get out of Dodge, its good to know there is an exit. Thanks for all the stimulating arguements and advice. All of you experienced guys here have a wealth of knowledge that I wish more prospective students took advantage of. :? Thanks for letting me use your brains for a while. I will post any updates to my Cleveland adventure here at a later time.

P.S. by the way, I received a letter from them recently telling me I have to take the CCAT. The NBCE is trying to create a standardized test that will be the Chiro version of the MCAT, PCAT, OAT, etc. But they are only doing this on the college campuses for now. I am told it is around 125-150 questions and will take two hours. But I am not sure if it has an essay portion. After a few statistical trials to determine if it is an accurate measure of student's success, the NCBE is supposed to implement it as a requirement. I take the test November 18 this year. So I will post my take on it afterwards. Anybody else out there have any info on this test? I am studying the MCAT reviews I have to prepare. Thanks. :D

AgActual
09-21-2010, 09:45 PM
I received a letter from them recently telling me I have to take the CCATNo s*it? I didn't know they actually developed that thing. I thought that went the way of the DCM, just something that they talked about for a few years but never materialized.

Personally I am not a big fan of standardized tests. I was a psychology person in my past life and most tests like that don't tell you much. However, i think that chiropractic could use one. The admission process based solely on having a certain GPA is not adequate enough. I have seen quite a few chiro students fizzle out and just disappear after a few weeks into their first semester, never to be seen again. And yes, some people do fail out of chiropractic school, as shocking as that fact may be. The screening process needs to be tightened up bit, i think and I am glad they are going forward with this. An entrance exam could be a small step closer to making this a credible field.

Sorry, besides that little rant i have no info for you. I only know what i read about it in a 7 or 8 year old ACA magazine article i found online last year. And i highly doubt that would be of any use. Certainly glad to hear about it though.

However, with that said, i am happy i didn't have to take it. :cool:

AgActual
09-21-2010, 09:56 PM
i never could mentally open up to exerting a light pressure near the sacral bone with one hand while rubbing the pts back with the other to release tension in the muscles so the spine can realign. maybe it was because the instructor was creepy.

That is probably the feeling you will get from most Logan grads. :p

CancerDoc
09-28-2010, 06:45 AM
Oceania University of Medicine may be an alternative for you if you are uncertain about chiropractic school and are still interested in med school.

Forsaken38
09-28-2010, 09:00 AM
How many of their grads get residency in the US? What are their admission stats like? Where do their grads practice? Does anyone have any info on Oceania U?

CARICOM-MED
09-28-2010, 05:06 PM
DC vs Unknown IMG program Review
At least with a DC college you are at least with a formal degree and license, with offshore MD, you are faced with MANY uncertainties, Residencies spots are few, and USMLE % pass rates are rapidly atrophying for IMGs....
If you are thinking MD program please review the top program your $$$ can afford, and that you can get into with your GPA and MCAT scores....also consider a DO program...

Cheers,



How many of their grads get residency in the US? What are their admission stats like? Where do their grads practice? Does anyone have any info on Oceania U?

CancerDoc
09-29-2010, 01:53 PM
Oceania is a rather new school to US students, but well-established for students from the Pacific Rim. There are US grads in practice and residency, most of whom were NPs and PAs.

CARICOM-MED
09-30-2010, 05:29 PM
Then why not just go into a PA program ? you can do so much more as a PA even NP, broad scope and working together with MD/DOs........better than offshore risky new MD programs, and much faster way to pay your loans back etc....you can practice in a group, and some NPs even start their own practices....DO is also an excellent option, if you can get in.....but, be VERY carefull with some of the new MD programs that are offshore..

Cheers,


Oceania is a rather new school to US students, but well-established for students from the Pacific Rim. There are US grads in practice and residency, most of whom were NPs and PAs.

CancerDoc
10-01-2010, 12:56 AM
This particular school is not an off-shore school; it is a well-established school in the Pacific Rim. Recommending someone become a PA rather than a MD is like recommending someone become a navigator instead of a pilot. You either want to be a MD or you do not. In like manner, you either want to be a PA or you do not. However, some healthcare providers realize that they are not competitive for a US med school, yet they want a career change. This school is not for everyone, but it does give those who are motivated a chance they otherwise would not have.

azskeptic
10-04-2010, 10:50 AM
Definition of offshore school: non-LCME. Oceania is not recognized by LCME and all graduates are treated exactly as any other non-US/Canada school. It wasn't that long ago this article came out on Oceania


November 27, 2002, Wednesday
SECTION: FEATURES-COLUMN- HIGHER EDUCATION; Pg. 19
LENGTH: 628 words
HEADLINE: No bones about medical school
SOURCE: MATP
BYLINE: Patrick Lawnham
BODY:
CAN you earn a medical degree partly online and "30 per cent faster"
than usual from a new university based in Samoa and owned by a
philanthropic heiress in Florida?
Former Curtin University of Technology vice-chancellor J M
ays you can if you've passed at least a year of tertiary study at any
university.
The cost? $US92,000 ($164,000).
Dr M who was a deputy vice-chancellor at Monash University
after leaving Curtin, became pro vice-chancellor of the Oceania
University of Medicine four months ago.
He agrees the institution has had a "highly troubled" first year, but
says it's over the worst.
Most staff have quit or have been forced out. Several students left
earlier this year, alleging they were denied "the most elementary
resources, that is, skeleton and whiteboard" for their introductory
course in Samoa.
The school delivers courses over the internet, with a local doctor of
your choice paid as a mentor by the university, after the introductory
two months in Samoa.
The three-year, full-time course uses a problem-based approach,
working through a list of patient diseases, injuries and disorders.
The program is designed by another Australian, B M and the
OUM's new part-time associate dean of medical sciences is R
, a Monash University medicine academic.
OUM's vice-chancellor for a brief period early this year, F S
is another Australian who, like Mr M worked at the International
University of the Health Sciences at St Kitts in the Caribbean.
Dr M told the HES "the former difficulties are well behind us".
The OUM continued to have the backing of the Samoan Government, which
has two representatives on the university council.
Yesterday, Dr M announced the appointment of a clinical dean,
local physician and Auckland University graduate Satu Viali.
The Florida benefactor is T G , who owns the university through
a Dublin-based company, eMedical Education Ltd, formerly of the
Caymans. Dr M said any profits would be reinvested in the
university.
As Samoa's only medical institution, the university was given its own
act by the Samoan parliament last January.
The campus is within the Polynesian nation's health department
compound at Moto'otua, in the hills above the capital Apia, close to
the grave of Robert Louis *******on.
The OUM course consists of a joint bachelor of medicine and bachelor
of surgery, or a doctor of medicine for US students.
It has only a handful of students now but Dr M said nearly 150
applications had been received, mostly over the internet, from 18
countries for 2003.
Most were from the US.
Students can work from home for nine eight-week blocks of "mechanisms
of disease" online but must meet a mentor twice a week.
Later it is intended there will be six eight-week blocks of clinical
rotations in Samoa or in hospitals at home and two blocks of
pre-internship medicine at a teaching hospital.
"Medicine is usually regarded as a very conservative profession but
there have been quite significant changes in the last decade over how
medicine is taught," Dr M said.
Universities in North America had three-year medical programs,
including the University of Calgary, he said.
The OUM was adding a web-based element to this. "While it may seem
quite unconventional, I can tell you it's right at the cutting edge.
"I also believe whether you're learning medicine or accounting or law,
web-based learning works," he said. "It is for some people who are
highly self-motivated and self-driven."
The university will establish an independent accreditation committee
to report to the Samoan Government, and hopes for Australian
accreditation.

CancerDoc
10-04-2010, 05:48 PM
Interesting, thanks.

CARICOM-MED
10-04-2010, 06:18 PM
So, you agree with me then :)
rather not pursue OCEANA / OUM med program, better go the PA /NP route....safer, faster and rewarding career....



Definition of offshore school: non-LCME. Oceania is not recognized by LCME and all graduates are treated exactly as any other non-US/Canada school. It wasn't that long ago this article came out on Oceania


November 27, 2002, Wednesday
SECTION: FEATURES-COLUMN- HIGHER EDUCATION; Pg. 19
LENGTH: 628 words
HEADLINE: No bones about medical school
SOURCE: MATP
BYLINE: Patrick Lawnham
BODY:
CAN you earn a medical degree partly online and "30 per cent faster"
than usual from a new university based in Samoa and owned by a
philanthropic heiress in Florida?
Former Curtin University of Technology vice-chancellor J M
ays you can if you've passed at least a year of tertiary study at any
university.
The cost? $US92,000 ($164,000).
Dr M who was a deputy vice-chancellor at Monash University
after leaving Curtin, became pro vice-chancellor of the Oceania
University of Medicine four months ago.
He agrees the institution has had a "highly troubled" first year, but
says it's over the worst.
Most staff have quit or have been forced out. Several students left
earlier this year, alleging they were denied "the most elementary
resources, that is, skeleton and whiteboard" for their introductory
course in Samoa.
The school delivers courses over the internet, with a local doctor of
your choice paid as a mentor by the university, after the introductory
two months in Samoa.
The three-year, full-time course uses a problem-based approach,
working through a list of patient diseases, injuries and disorders.
The program is designed by another Australian, B M and the
OUM's new part-time associate dean of medical sciences is R
, a Monash University medicine academic.
OUM's vice-chancellor for a brief period early this year, F S
is another Australian who, like Mr M worked at the International
University of the Health Sciences at St Kitts in the Caribbean.
Dr M told the HES "the former difficulties are well behind us".
The OUM continued to have the backing of the Samoan Government, which
has two representatives on the university council.
Yesterday, Dr M announced the appointment of a clinical dean,
local physician and Auckland University graduate Satu Viali.
The Florida benefactor is T G , who owns the university through
a Dublin-based company, eMedical Education Ltd, formerly of the
Caymans. Dr M said any profits would be reinvested in the
university.
As Samoa's only medical institution, the university was given its own
act by the Samoan parliament last January.
The campus is within the Polynesian nation's health department
compound at Moto'otua, in the hills above the capital Apia, close to
the grave of Robert Louis *******on.
The OUM course consists of a joint bachelor of medicine and bachelor
of surgery, or a doctor of medicine for US students.
It has only a handful of students now but Dr M said nearly 150
applications had been received, mostly over the internet, from 18
countries for 2003.
Most were from the US.
Students can work from home for nine eight-week blocks of "mechanisms
of disease" online but must meet a mentor twice a week.
Later it is intended there will be six eight-week blocks of clinical
rotations in Samoa or in hospitals at home and two blocks of
pre-internship medicine at a teaching hospital.
"Medicine is usually regarded as a very conservative profession but
there have been quite significant changes in the last decade over how
medicine is taught," Dr M said.
Universities in North America had three-year medical programs,
including the University of Calgary, he said.
The OUM was adding a web-based element to this. "While it may seem
quite unconventional, I can tell you it's right at the cutting edge.
"I also believe whether you're learning medicine or accounting or law,
web-based learning works," he said. "It is for some people who are
highly self-motivated and self-driven."
The university will establish an independent accreditation committee
to report to the Samoan Government, and hopes for Australian
accreditation.

ChiroPhysician
10-05-2010, 10:18 AM
Has anyone heard of a piggyback program through the University of Miami in relation to USAT Montserrat school? This would be for a DC to MD/DO 25 month program. Supposedly they are taking course work from the DC program as transferable credits. I am possibly looking for an alternative avenue to the DC profession. I have worked on both sides of the profession from a PI practice to high volume (adjusting 425 pts/week) for moderate income as an associate. Majority of established chiro's want 1-to-2 year contracts with no permanent stay in sight. I don't blame them on trying to keep the overhead to a minimum. I don't want to keep bouncing around every year and looking at the classifieds on a consistent basis doesn't yield much availability.

For those that may ask, "why don't you open your own practice?" Well to be honest with you, I talked with many MD's/DO's and still find a lot of resistance. The energy spent educating them is exhausting and I shouldn't have to do it, but would need to in order to get pt referrals. I am not one to stand in the mall or at some local outdoor event with a booth and perform spinal screenings. Attorneys are a flooded market with longstanding, established chiro's in the area and becoming an insurance provider of some of the key insurance groups have been closed to new physicians. With that being said, I would be forced to open a cash practice which I am not going to do.

Edit: I guess I should add that I really don't want to go back to school for 4 years and even more student loan debt. Among some of the directions I am considering is a PA program since its only 2 years.

azskeptic
10-05-2010, 04:20 PM
1. any program that accepts DC credit as equivalent won't lead to licensure.
2. Look at the accreditation status of USAT at CAAM-HP (http://caam-hp.org/assessed_schools.html)
3. There are no shortcuts. If you want to practice medicine go to a medical school. anything less is suicide for getting licensed.


Has anyone heard of a piggyback program through the University of Miami in relation to USAT Montserrat school? This would be for a DC to MD/DO 25 month program. Supposedly they are taking course work from the DC program as transferable credits. I am possibly looking for an alternative avenue to the DC profession. I have worked on both sides of the profession from a PI practice to high volume (adjusting 425 pts/week) for moderate income as an associate. Majority of established chiro's want 1-to-2 year contracts with no permanent stay in sight. I don't blame them on trying to keep the overhead to a minimum. I don't want to keep bouncing around every year and looking at the classifieds on a consistent basis doesn't yield much availability.

For those that may ask, "why don't you open your own practice?" Well to be honest with you, I talked with many MD's/DO's and still find a lot of resistance. The energy spent educating them is exhausting and I shouldn't have to do it, but would need to in order to get pt referrals. I am not one to stand in the mall or at some local outdoor event with a booth and perform spinal screenings. Attorneys are a flooded market with longstanding, established chiro's in the area and becoming an insurance provider of some of the key insurance groups have been closed to new physicians. With that being said, I would be forced to open a cash practice which I am not going to do.

Edit: I guess I should add that I really don't want to go back to school for 4 years and even more student loan debt. Among some of the directions I am considering is a PA program since its only 2 years.

ChiroPhysician
10-05-2010, 04:46 PM
Yeah man...I appreciate the response:

Decision:
The CAAM-HP after examination of the reports determined that it could not grant provisional accreditation for the programme as presented.


I kind of figured that when I started digging a little deeper. Just beat me to posting my findings in here.

CARICOM-MED
10-05-2010, 10:11 PM
If I were you, I would highly consider a NP or PA option, you can complete it in 2 years, and start work immediately with MD/DO and get paid very well...about 80K/Year...(that's how much we pay our PAs.) as a NP/PA you have fairly broad scope under supervision, in some states even open your own practice with limited scope...

otherwise, consider a MD/DO program, but keep in mind, it is 4 years, plus 3 years residency until you can get licensed and work.

We had several DCs in our program at UHSA, that got their MD in 36 months, and then had to do 3-5 years of residency.....Now, EVERYONE has to complete the complete 40 months MD Program...since advance standing is no longer allowed...

Good Luck :)



Has anyone heard of a piggyback program through the University of Miami in relation to USAT Montserrat school? This would be for a DC to MD/DO 25 month program. Supposedly they are taking course work from the DC program as transferable credits. I am possibly looking for an alternative avenue to the DC profession. I have worked on both sides of the profession from a PI practice to high volume (adjusting 425 pts/week) for moderate income as an associate. Majority of established chiro's want 1-to-2 year contracts with no permanent stay in sight. I don't blame them on trying to keep the overhead to a minimum. I don't want to keep bouncing around every year and looking at the classifieds on a consistent basis doesn't yield much availability.

For those that may ask, "why don't you open your own practice?" Well to be honest with you, I talked with many MD's/DO's and still find a lot of resistance. The energy spent educating them is exhausting and I shouldn't have to do it, but would need to in order to get pt referrals. I am not one to stand in the mall or at some local outdoor event with a booth and perform spinal screenings. Attorneys are a flooded market with longstanding, established chiro's in the area and becoming an insurance provider of some of the key insurance groups have been closed to new physicians. With that being said, I would be forced to open a cash practice which I am not going to do.

Edit: I guess I should add that I really don't want to go back to school for 4 years and even more student loan debt. Among some of the directions I am considering is a PA program since its only 2 years.

Forsaken38
10-06-2010, 02:23 PM
So you guys are saying that a US PA program is better than an IMG MD because you will have a job straight out of school. Why is it that many MD grads cant get matched? Don't people finish residency every year? Has the number of MD grads really increased that much over the last 5 years that IMG's can't get a spot?

Imo, a PA program is great if you want that, but if you are already an MD waiting on a match, then it might be a waste of time. Find something else to do to pay your loans part time. IDK. PA school would be easy for you yea, but it seems like you would be twiddling your thumbs. If I do go to an offshore MD school in a few years, it would be a carib school, I just don't want to be a PA.

CancerDoc
10-06-2010, 03:38 PM
USHADOC, in large part, I agree with you. Although exceptions exist, if a student is not competitive enough to attend med school in the US, they are swimming upstream thereafter in terms of practicing in the US. If someone is purely motivated to become a physician, attending a school outside the US and practicing in an underserved area (e.g., Samoa) can be very rewarding. I do not think that becoming a NP or PA by default is necessarily a rational approach. I, for one, would not want to be a NP or PA even though I respect what they do.

CancerDoc
10-06-2010, 03:47 PM
ChiroPhysician, if you have a burning desire to become a physician, no matter what the cause, I think you should pursue your dream. Settling for anything else may be a set-up for frustration. There are no short cuts in this profession. I spent more time than most in training (** x 2, MD/PhD, residency, fellowship), but I have no regrets.

CARICOM-MED
10-06-2010, 05:22 PM
Less PGE Spots, for IMGs, more LCME MD Programs opening up, and if you go to an iffy MD program, you will run into a risky business........PA or NP is a great alternative, and job market is very good....80-90K per year...





USHADOC, in large part, I agree with you. Although exceptions exist, if a student is not competitive enough to attend med school in the US, they are swimming upstream thereafter in terms of practicing in the US. If someone is purely motivated to become a physician, attending a school outside the US and practicing in an underserved area (e.g., Samoa) can be very rewarding. I do not think that becoming a NP or PA by default is necessarily a rational approach. I, for one, would not want to be a NP or PA even though I respect what they do.

CancerDoc
10-07-2010, 02:26 PM
CRNA is another option.

ChiroPhysician
10-07-2010, 03:27 PM
I am pretty well established and content on where I am living. With the recent purchase of a house last year and my wife having a state job, I am not really wanting to go to any schools outside the US much less my own state. I am still young and able to go to med school, but I am just ready to settle down and make a little bit of money to enjoy myself. The Chiro profession has not given me that ability. PA is the quick route and the stability I would be looking for without having to take another 4 years plus residency. The pay is decent and I would still be in the health care field helping people; which is what I am ultimately looking for. The status of being an MD or being called a doctor really doesn't impact me very much. I have gone to Chiro school, graduated and given that little piece of paper that says I am a chiropractic physician. So I am a doctor, just one with a minimal scope of practice.

CARICOM-MED
10-07-2010, 10:30 PM
DC-PA option vs DC-MD(IMG) option
That's is a smart move, and something most DCs should consider instead of jumping into an offshore MD(IMG) programs, that offer little support, 4 years of high tuition & did I mention RISKY !!! most end up without a license, & NO residency spot....

PA or NP are not that hard to get into, you can graduate in 2 years or less, get a Master degree at the end of it, and a GUARANTEED job, your scope is broad to surgery and Drugs, and you will be a member of a medical team.....We just hired 2 PAs in the past year, both are making 90K per year...Good ROI, if you ask me......



I am pretty well established and content on where I am living. With the recent purchase of a house last year and my wife having a state job, I am not really wanting to go to any schools outside the US much less my own state. I am still young and able to go to med school, but I am just ready to settle down and make a little bit of money to enjoy myself. The Chiro profession has not given me that ability. PA is the quick route and the stability I would be looking for without having to take another 4 years plus residency. The pay is decent and I would still be in the health care field helping people; which is what I am ultimately looking for. The status of being an MD or being called a doctor really doesn't impact me very much. I have gone to Chiro school, graduated and given that little piece of paper that says I am a chiropractic physician. So I am a doctor, just one with a minimal scope of practice.

khiro
10-08-2010, 01:22 PM
just how flexible are you? valuemd is full of people who have sold their house, furniture, cars, etc and given up jobs (student and spouse) to go off to MD school. there is a fellow who graduated a year behind me at TCC who did just that 5 yrs ago, and began his residency this yr. after doing 18 or so yrs in chiro. now that is sacrifice. he was really flexible.

everyone is different. your situation sounds a lot less flexible. nothing wrong with that. this guy UHSADOC keeps coming up with sound advice. he is right on with the info on PA school. univ of ala at birmingham (UAB) has a surgical PA program if you are into that.

don't know your age, but the older i get the more i am leaning toward the idea of a salary from someone, and of course most PA jobs fit that mold. i am getting ready to retire from practice, and begin another chapter of my life and i am very thankful for the chiro practice that i had. that was in another time; not with the economies of today, so i understand your desire to do something else. i like the idea of PA.




I am pretty well established and content on where I am living. With the recent purchase of a house last year and my wife having a state job, I am not really wanting to go to any schools outside the US much less my own state. I am still young and able to go to med school, but I am just ready to settle down and make a little bit of money to enjoy myself. The Chiro profession has not given me that ability. PA is the quick route and the stability I would be looking for without having to take another 4 years plus residency. The pay is decent and I would still be in the health care field helping people; which is what I am ultimately looking for. The status of being an MD or being called a doctor really doesn't impact me very much. I have gone to Chiro school, graduated and given that little piece of paper that says I am a chiropractic physician. So I am a doctor, just one with a minimal scope of practice.

CARICOM-MED
10-08-2010, 02:58 PM
DC-PA/NP Vs. DC-MD(IMG) Option

If time is an issue, as well as funding, then PA or NP should be a REALLY good choice for the DC, looking to expand scope, and get integrated into the MD/DO working force.
BTW: You can still work as a DC, in addition work inline with the hospital system or Medical Group, for a great salary....National PA/NP average is 75-100K per year.
Why waste 7-8 of ADDITIONAL Years, in NON-LCME accredited MD Program, and 200K for something that is NOT guaranteed (Limited Residency spots.)
PA or even NPs are also in demand, and you can get started in 2 years instead of 8 :)

If I was a DC already I would highly consider that route....



just how flexible are you? valuemd is full of people who have sold their house, furniture, cars, etc and given up jobs (student and spouse) to go off to MD school. there is a fellow who graduated a year behind me at TCC who did just that 5 yrs ago, and began his residency this yr. after doing 18 or so yrs in chiro. now that is sacrifice. he was really flexible.

everyone is different. your situation sounds a lot less flexible. nothing wrong with that. this guy UHSADOC keeps coming up with sound advice. he is right on with the info on PA school. univ of ala at birmingham (UAB) has a surgical PA program if you are into that.

don't know your age, but the older i get the more i am leaning toward the idea of a salary from someone, and of course most PA jobs fit that mold. i am getting ready to retire from practice, and begin another chapter of my life and i am very thankful for the chiro practice that i had. that was in another time; not with the economies of today, so i understand your desire to do something else. i like the idea of PA.

canuckdc
10-08-2010, 04:42 PM
DC-PA/NP Vs. DC-MD(IMG) Option

If time is an issue, as well as funding, then PA or NP should be a REALLY good choice for the DC, looking to expand scope, and get integrated into the MD/DO working force.
BTW: You can still work as a DC, in addition work inline with the hospital system or Medical Group, for a great salary....National PA/NP average is 75-100K per year.
Why waste 7-8 of ADDITIONAL Years, in NON-LCME accredited MD Program, and 200K for something that is NOT guaranteed (Limited Residency spots.)
PA or even NPs are also in demand, and you can get started in 2 years instead of 8 :)

If I was a DC already I would highly consider that route....

Go the MD route. leave the PA route for those that are satisfided making 90K a year and want to have an employer. If you've made it through the DC program, you will have no trouble with a carribean MD program and it will be far more rewarding in the end. By the way go work as a DC in Europe or Latin America if you don't want to go back to school, you can make alot more than what most GP.s make in the States and the respect level is much higher from medical colleagues and the general public

CARICOM-MED
10-09-2010, 01:55 PM
Options for my DC Colleagues

It all depends on how much $$$ you can afford, & if you can move with your family to the Caribbean then move from state to state for clinicals etc & if you can commit to LONG 7 years with no income or very little income in residency.

Canuckdc
What is wrong with making 75-100K per year ?
And your comment about making $$$ as a DC in Europe or elsewhere is not very sound. what if they want to stay...hmmmm in north america ? :)

As a NP or PA, your scope is decent, you can collaborate with Physicians, and at the end of the day, you have a great lifestyle, great job, Not much student loans.

The MSc(ACP) route is also something you should pay close attention to. NM just opened a HUGE door for DCs, and I believe "EBM DCs" or DCMs, will soon have expanded scope with this credential.

Cheers,



Go the MD route. leave the PA route for those that are satisfided making 90K a year and want to have an employer. If you've made it through the DC program, you will have no trouble with a carribean MD program and it will be far more rewarding in the end. By the way go work as a DC in Europe or Latin America if you don't want to go back to school, you can make alot more than what most GP.s make in the States and the respect level is much higher from medical colleagues and the general public

canuckdc
10-09-2010, 02:44 PM
Options for my DC Colleagues

It all depends on how much $$$ you can afford, & if you can move with your family to the Caribbean then move from state to state for clinicals etc & if you can commit to LONG 7 years with no income or very little income in residency.

Canuckdc
What is wrong with making 75-100K per year ?
And your comment about making $$$ as a DC in Europe or elsewhere is not very sound. what if they want to stay...hmmmm in north america ? :)

As a NP or PA, your scope is decent, you can collaborate with Physicians, and at the end of the day, you have a great lifestyle, great job, Not much student loans.

The MSc(ACP) route is also something you should pay close attention to. NM just opened a HUGE door for DCs, and I believe "EBM DCs" or DCMs, will soon have expanded scope with this credential.

Cheers,
the DCM program is not going nowhere as you still will be a DC and have the same issues of resistance from the general public and especially the medical community. In theroy its a great idea, but reality of the internal and external conflicts of the profession does not create a bright future. If I'm not mistaking WSCC started this program a few years back, then shut it down.

There are plenty of chiros in N. America making a fantastic standard of living. Europe or abroad is an alternative for those that want an easier go of the chiro business and also maybe want to enjoy experiencing something different at the same time. If your willing to work overseas, I highly recommend it as you will find chiropractic a lot less political, much more respectable and extremely enjoyable

CARICOM-MED
10-09-2010, 07:10 PM
Not true, the MSc(ACP) is not a DCM or a "NEW DC Degree" the MSc(ACP)was approved & adopted in NM.. it is an extension to the DC degree...similar to a PA or NP program, but tailored to DCs....Western Chiro college, wanted to "Change" their DC into DCM, hence did not pass or ever adopted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_education)

I think it is a Good start for the new DCs, or perhaps go and obtain a MSc in PA studies, or NP....that is already approved in all 50 states, and you can start practicing in medical groups and hospitals...

The Advantage of the MSc(ACP) is you can obtain it via part time & online while you work...it is a 2 years master's degree, made specific to the DCs that aspire for enhanced scope...




the DCM program is not going nowhere as you still will be a DC and have the same issues of resistance from the general public and especially the medical community. In theroy its a great idea, but reality of the internal and external conflicts of the profession does not create a bright future. If I'm not mistaking WSCC started this program a few years back, then shut it down.

There are plenty of chiros in N. America making a fantastic standard of living. Europe or abroad is an alternative for those that want an easier go of the chiro business and also maybe want to enjoy experiencing something different at the same time. If your willing to work overseas, I highly recommend it as you will find chiropractic a lot less political, much more respectable and extremely enjoyable

canuckdc
10-09-2010, 08:15 PM
Not true, the MSc(ACP) is not a DCM or a "NEW DC Degree" the MSc(ACP)was approved & adopted in NM.. it is an extension to the DC degree...similar to a PA or NP program, but tailored to DCs....Western Chiro college, wanted to "Change" their DC into DCM, hence did not pass or ever adopted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_education)

I think it is a Good start for the new DCs, or perhaps go and obtain a MSc in PA studies, or NP....that is already approved in all 50 states, and you can start practicing in medical groups and hospitals...

The Advantage of the MSc(ACP) is you can obtain it via part time & online while you work...it is a 2 years master's degree, made specific to the DCs that aspire for enhanced scope...
The politics of the chiropractic profession is undeniably complex, but a few things remain constant. Both the ACA and ICA have a drug free stance. They donít want to be under the veil of the medical profession and pride them selves of being a stand alone profession. This ability to prescribe in NM with the MSc (ACP) is limited to Vitamins, NSAIDS, sub lingual hormones and injectable saline. This is kind of a joke as in most States and Provinces, any DC that wants to sell/px Vitamins or sub linguals already does, or will recommend the use of NSAIDS.
The MSC(Acp) great for continuing education hours, thatís about it

CancerDoc
10-10-2010, 12:21 AM
Again, I would take a look at Oceania University of Medicine. The first 2 years are online and you can continue working.

canuckdc
10-10-2010, 06:45 AM
Oceania might work for some states. I would be careful as I understand that some states have problems with online learning. IUHS is similar to Oceania, but more affordable

CARICOM-MED
10-10-2010, 10:03 AM
Oceana, IUHS and any of the online hybrid type schools are NOT recommended at all. I highly Doubt any gradute from such programs will be able to:
A. Pass their USMLEs (Steps 1-3)
B.Get into Residency
C.Obtain a License.

My point of PA/NP option seems to be the most logical at this time. At least you attend a an accredited Univesity in the US, and have a secure job at the end of it. Doubt OUM, is accepted anywhere.


Again, I would take a look at Oceania University of Medicine. The first 2 years are online and you can continue working.

Forsaken38
10-10-2010, 11:57 AM
wow! you guys sure like to debate a point. I think this thread has become a little renegade. ;) CancerDoc, nobody I know will be taking a look a Oceania anytime soon. It doesn't sound like a school without its problems.

Canuckdc, anything to move the profession foward, towards an EB perspective is welcome and long overdue. Most DC's are still practicing like they did in the early years of the profession. While the rate of change may be so slow it seems immeasurable at times, I along with many others are glad that things progress and that doors are opening that have been closed for a long time. Most DC's I know already have acceptance in the medical community, so I am not so sure that's what the issue is. I think it has more to do with integration of services, and collaboration with other medical professionals. And the last I read the ACA was not in opposition to these changes, the ICA was, and the FCA filed suit to try to prevent these changes from happening. I am not sure what the outcome will be, but I can tell you the profession is slowly shifting to Evidence based practice. Most of the newer students I have talked to feel this way, and the education has changed (and will change more) to reflect it. When alot of older DC's retire in the next 10-20 years, I think the reputation of the profession will also reflect this, and DC's will be more accepted, integrated, and better trained to provide a broader scope of practice. Who knows what the future will hold, but IMO it is just plain silly to have a totally drugless stance in this society. I don't know a single DC who wouldn't take a nsaid for pain or tell a patient to do so as well. That's where I think it gets silly, their drugless stance consists of "NO DRUGS... oh, except OTC's and vitamins, those are ok... NO DRUGS." give me a break! Their stance should be less drugs, or a No drug controlled practices. Pharm is here to stay.
Everything has its place, to deny that is like sticking their head in the sand. :)
Maybe that is the ICA and FCA's problem.

Thanks

CancerDoc
10-11-2010, 02:01 AM
One of the strengths of this forum is that we can give our opinions based on our experiences. One size does not fit all.

Forsaken38
10-11-2010, 04:16 AM
One of the strengths of this forum is that we can give our opinions based on our experiences. One size does not fit all.

Fair enough. Sorry if I offended you. Just trying to make a point.:cool:

khiro
10-11-2010, 11:58 AM
The politics of the chiropractic profession is undeniably complex, but a few things remain constant. Both the ACA and ICA have a drug free stance. They donít want to be under the veil of the medical profession and pride them selves of being a stand alone profession. This ability to prescribe in NM with the MSc (ACP) is limited to Vitamins, NSAIDS, sub lingual hormones and injectable saline. This is kind of a joke as in most States and Provinces, any DC that wants to sell/px Vitamins or sub linguals already does, or will recommend the use of NSAIDS.
The MSC(Acp) great for continuing education hours, thatís about it

now i know, most anyone with a reasonable personality and a talent of vision can recognize that the above comment by canuckdc is hurtful, shocking, and insulting. that is b/c it is TRUE. thank you canuckdc.

forsaken38; UHSADOC has nailed a couple of alternatives (PA or NP) to chiro. lots of advantages (salary, lower cost, in-country or instate education, etc). i haven't checked into the other professions (OD, DPM, DDS) but they need to be at least considered as well. if you are young, MD/DO. and if you are young and willing to take a risk, then offshore MD. but with your open statement against the policy of no drugs in chiro (how dare you) i question your sanity to become a DC. think 3x before you go. there are options.

cancerdoc also mentioned another alternative: CRNA. which is a long road itself.

years ago when i started my real estate dealings an old man who had developed millions worth of RE told me, "son its not the house you miss that kills you, its the house you buy". nothing in life is certain. there has to be risk and hardship; thats what makes it rewarding. at this point i don't believe that chiro is worth that risk or hardship. good luck.

CARICOM-MED
10-11-2010, 12:16 PM
You are right on the $$$ :)
Drugs are here to stay, and even more drugs are coming our way :)

I hope for the sake of your profession to start implementing the science behind pharmacology and move on with the times.

The "Straight" Phiosophical ICA is surely taking steps backwords, and keeping your profession in the dark ages. While the EBM/"Mixer" association ACA is trying to move forward. Results ?? Two conflicting associations, and your profession is "Stuck" - Stasis & not progressing, or even worse is in a state of atrophy.

In the meantime, you have to do what you gotta do best for yourself and family. If you can make a change great, hope more DCs will support your cause. The issue is not the MDs or DOs it is the "Straight DCs" that keep the Chiropractic profession in a state of STASIS :)

What you all can do is raise awareness, and STOP supporting the ICA. Allocate all funding to ACA, and unified action will get results. Collaborate with Pharm companies, include extensive Pharmacology & Toxicology in the DC curriculum & slowly get integrated within the hospital system, perhaps start residency programs ??

Cheers :)




wow! you guys sure like to debate a point. I think this thread has become a little renegade. ;) CancerDoc, nobody I know will be taking a look a Oceania anytime soon. It doesn't sound like a school without its problems.

Canuckdc, anything to move the profession foward, towards an EB perspective is welcome and long overdue. Most DC's are still practicing like they did in the early years of the profession. While the rate of change may be so slow it seems immeasurable at times, I along with many others are glad that things progress and that doors are opening that have been closed for a long time. Most DC's I know already have acceptance in the medical community, so I am not so sure that's what the issue is. I think it has more to do with integration of services, and collaboration with other medical professionals. And the last I read the ACA was not in opposition to these changes, the ICA was, and the FCA filed suit to try to prevent these changes from happening. I am not sure what the outcome will be, but I can tell you the profession is slowly shifting to Evidence based practice. Most of the newer students I have talked to feel this way, and the education has changed (and will change more) to reflect it. When alot of older DC's retire in the next 10-20 years, I think the reputation of the profession will also reflect this, and DC's will be more accepted, integrated, and better trained to provide a broader scope of practice. Who knows what the future will hold, but IMO it is just plain silly to have a totally drugless stance in this society. I don't know a single DC who wouldn't take a nsaid for pain or tell a patient to do so as well. That's where I think it gets silly, their drugless stance consists of "NO DRUGS... oh, except OTC's and vitamins, those are ok... NO DRUGS." give me a break! Their stance should be less drugs, or a No drug controlled practices. Pharm is here to stay.
Everything has its place, to deny that is like sticking their head in the sand. :)
Maybe that is the ICA and FCA's problem.

Thanks

khiro
10-11-2010, 01:30 PM
its kinda spooky. now every industry has to deal with politics (internal and external) but come on chiropractic. will you ever get your house inorder? i say "your" b/c for all intents and purposes, i am out. i am semi-retired now, headed for full in a couple of yrs. who would desire to be part of such a fragmented profession??

Forsaken38
10-11-2010, 03:52 PM
but with your open statement against the policy of no drugs in chiro (how dare you) i question your sanity to become a DC. think 3x before you go.


Just trying to call it like I see it. I think we can move forward in the profession, but It will take some time and serious effort. I guess my position on the drug issue is that it gives another treatment option. It is for the good of the patient ultimately. Suppliments, Vitamins, etc. are drugs, right? They are used religiously, granted most are naturally occuring compounds. So why is it seen as such a bad thing to use other minor drugs? It just doesn't seem rational to me.:noidea: Allopathy has its place, and if there is a little overlap in scope or treatment options, whats the big deal?:confused:

I know you guys are just trying to help. I am not trying to sound like a jerk; sorry if I do. I just want to keep it as "no nonsense" as possible.

Khiro- I like the real estate quote about the house that gets you. I may have to use it sometime.:D

CARICOM-MED
10-11-2010, 04:27 PM
The Chiropractic Profession, Past-Present-Future

I think Chiropractic is a great profession, if applied correctly, issues here are the "limited" views the straight DCs have on either disease and treatments. Mixer/EBM DCs DDX the patient, apply science to their diagnosis and thoughts into their treatments. (Nutrition-Physiotherapy-Manipulation- or collaborate with MDs.)

"Subluxation" AKA "Spinal Dysfunction" is ONE CONDITION, and "Manipulation" is a TOOL. Problem I have is when I see DCs that ALL they look for is subluxations and all they use is Manipulation.
I Wish Medicine was that easy :) No chance....there are contra-indications to manipulations, and there is more to the person's condition than just subuxations.

Note: Most MDs support the ACA & EBM type DC Schools
Here come the EBM/mixer DCs...Many of them are now going into MD/DO & PA, MSc(ACP) programs..even ND programs b/c their issues with the ICA/WCA.
I and many MD/DOs out there support your cause, and hopefully schools like CMCC/NUHS/BU/Western/NWUH etc.. will slowly but surely over-power the sham straight type schools out there that give DCs a bad rep.

Cheers,


its kinda spooky. now every industry has to deal with politics (internal and external) but come on chiropractic. will you ever get your house inorder? i say "your" b/c for all intents and purposes, i am out. i am semi-retired now, headed for full in a couple of yrs. who would desire to be part of such a fragmented profession??







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