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CARICOM-MED
08-30-2010, 01:44 PM
MSc (ACP) a new alternative to the DCM Degree:

Chiropractic Headed to Assimilation By Medicine (http://chirounity.com/815/chiropractic-headed-to-assimilation-by-medicine/)

Funny enough much of the opposition is from DCs not Allopathic MDs

Chiropractic as a separate and distinct profession is about to be lost forever. The ACA and the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners are working on plans to create certification for an “expanded practice chiropractic physician” that apparently includes prescribing and administering drugs.

It is a 2 Year MSc (Advance Clinical Practice) Program at NUHS, that will allow current DC an Expanded scope, similar to DO, Primary Care Physician.

The trial run in New Mexico was a success and now it appears it is full steam ahead for the rest of the country.
The New Mexico Chiropractic Association and the New Mexico Board of Chiropractic Examiners in concert with the New Mexico Medical Board and the New Mexico Board of Pharmacy recently agreed to and passed legislation (http://www.nmchiroassoc.com/leg_docs/HBill275.final%20signed%20version.pdf) in New Mexico creating a new class of chiropractor called “Advanced Practice Chiropractic Physician”.

New Mexico Advanced Practice, Chiropractic and the National Associations - Texas Journal of Chiropractic (http://texasjournalofchiropractic.eznuz.com/article/Featured_News/From_the_World/New_Mexico_Advanced_Practice_Chiropractic_and_the_ National_Associations/23012)

houmd
08-30-2010, 02:10 PM
Although that article is almost a year old I can certainly see this as a possibility for DC's. Unfortunately most people (public and professional) don't know what a DC is or what their scope of education is. Unfortunately this leads to both good and bad things for both. Chiropractic probably doesn't have much of a future unless they change their ways and get rid of the old practices and the mixers that were deemed by the AMA as an "unscientific cult" The new era chiropractors are the ones we will see assimilate or else this profession is dead.

CARICOM-MED
08-30-2010, 04:26 PM
DC, MSc (ACP) option for Evidence Based DCs !!

NUHS: MSc in Advance Clinical Practice
Continuing Education (http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=7)

I agree 100%, I think this MSc (ACP) program at least will at least enhance collaboration between evidence based DCs and MD/DOs....

In addition, I belive later on, DCs that pursue such program, can make the case for enhanced scope, if Advanced training in Pharmacology, Clinical Medicine is available to them...



Although that article is almost a year old I can certainly see this as a possibility for DC's. Unfortunately most people (public and professional) don't know what a DC is or what their scope of education is. Unfortunately this leads to both good and bad things for both. Chiropractic probably doesn't have much of a future unless they change their ways and get rid of the old practices and the mixers that were deemed by the AMA as an "unscientific cult" The new era chiropractors are the ones we will see assimilate or else this profession is dead.

CARICOM-MED
09-03-2010, 11:55 AM
Apparently NM is a go for the NUHS, MSc Program for DC, and DCs will have an expanded scope of practice......
Now shortly other states will follow, similar path: CA and others...

My suggestions: DCs interested in becoming DCMs or advance practitioners, to complete the program.....I've reviewed the program, it is a 2 year hybrid of class & online MSc program, similar to the one NPs get as advance practitioners. (Enhanced Class Category.)...

Reasons:
1. More insurance acceptance and coverage
2. Enhanced scope as Primary Care
3. More marketable, for DO/MDs interested in hiring DCs into their practices
4. You are NO longer "Manual Therapist" or "Straight" Chiropractor
5. DDx & Rx will replace the old lingo of "Adjustments" & "Subluxations"

leadsled
09-03-2010, 12:52 PM
So I guess prospective students will consider US MD, US DO or US DC/cRX schools before foreign MD schools?

Crane
09-03-2010, 01:47 PM
Another way of making the Chiros independent primary care physicians with expanded scope of practice is to offer a three year residency to chiro grads who are interested in GP medical program. This can be done through the Chiro schools and hospital affiliations--- Similar to the DO only residency programs. I think some slight adjustment in the DC curriculum may be necessary at the undergraduate level by incorporating clinical rotations in internal and family medicine, peds, and women' health.

The graduates of these programs should be limited to practicing as GPs with the added training in chiro manipulative techniques. This is different than the DO's in that these chiros are specifically being trained as GP/chiro physicians. No other medical specialty training would be open to the chiros under this training track.

To me this makes more sense and is a lot cheaper than starting new medical schools and spending a fortune. If a nurse with more limited training is able to act as a medical primary care provider(FNP), I don't see why chiro education would be consider substandard for these purposes. The degree for students coming out of these program would be a DCM.

This plan of course would not prevent the hardcore types from training and becoming/remaining traditional chiros. This would simply be an additional training track--something like people wanting to train in PBL v the traditional format.:peace:

Crane
09-03-2010, 02:00 PM
So I guess prospective students will consider US MD, US DO or US DC/cRX schools before foreign MD schools?

I would rather see students stay home and spend those funds in their own backyards. Why spend your money in a foreign economy when you can do so stimulating your own local economy. The money we spend in the Caribbeans is going to the pockets of sharks who own these schools and the rest is paying for your all too caring Caribbean landlord's mortgage.

The US see no economic benefits from the investment of these funds. Yes, I do vote for alternative opportunities right here at home where the economic investment would actually help not only you but also your town and your neighbors.

leadsled
09-03-2010, 02:39 PM
I would rather see students stay home and spend those funds in their own backyards. Why spend your money in a foreign economy when you can do so stimulating your own local economy. The money we spend in the Caribbeans is going to the pockets of sharks who own these schools and the rest is paying for your all too caring Caribbean landlord's mortgage.

The US see no economic benefits from the investment of these funds. Yes, I do vote for alternative opportunities right here at home where the economic investment would actually help not only you but also your town and your neighbors.


I am just waiting to see when a back cracking add on course is developed for MD, DO, NP and PA's. For that matter, we might as well let Pharmacists and Psychologists get prescribing privileges as well! It's out of control!

Crane
09-03-2010, 03:19 PM
I am just waiting to see when a back cracking add on course is developed for MD, DO, NP and PA's. For that matter, we might as well let Pharmacists and Psychologists get prescribing privileges as well! It's out of control!

The pharmacist know more about drugs and drug interaction than any MD around. In fact, they check the MD's prescriptions before dispensing. The chiro colleges have better facilities and instructors than any Caribbean medical school. The medical profession is full of*****. They make fun of DOs and yet those guys are every bit as good as the MDs and are found in all medical specialties. As for back cracking courses? What do you think a DO is? They have courses in manipulations similar to the Chiros. Why don't you educate yourself before espousing nonsense about things you know nothing about.:rolleyes:

leadsled
09-03-2010, 03:31 PM
The pharmacist know more about drugs and drug interaction than any MD around. In fact, they check the MD's prescriptions before dispensing. The chiro colleges have better facilities and instructors than any Caribbean medical school. The medical profession is full of*****. They make fun of DOs and yet those guys are every bit as good as the MDs and are found in all medical specialties. As for back cracking courses? What do you think a DO is? They have courses in manipulations similar to the Chiros. Why don't you educate yourself before espousing nonsense about things you know nothing about.:rolleyes:

Its called sarcasm. Have a nice day!

CARICOM-MED
09-03-2010, 05:06 PM
DC + MSc (ACP) + 1-2 Years PGE= VERY Good PCP

Overall, I think the MSc(ACP) or Advance Class DCs, is a VERY good start and a good option for the DCs out there, sick of being classified as "Back Crackers" :) and that are interested in becoming PCPs..

I also AGREE that DC Schools in the US, have by far better facilities and resources than most Caribbean schools, in addition, the idea of implementing residency for DCs, that completed the MSc(ACP) is a good idea.....1-2 years of Residency training in Family medicine would suffice in order for them to be good overal PCPs.....much better training than most NP/PA out there, that's for certain !!! :)


Its called sarcasm. Have a nice day!

leadsled
09-04-2010, 06:23 PM
DC + MSc (ACP) + 1-2 Years PGE= VERY Good PCP

Overall, I think the MSc(ACP) or Advance Class DCs, is a VERY good start and a good option for the DCs out there, sick of being classified as "Back Crackers" :) and that are interested in becoming PCPs..

I also AGREE that DC Schools in the US, have by far better facilities and resources than most Caribbean schools, in addition, the idea of implementing residency for DCs, that completed the MSc(ACP) is a good idea.....1-2 years of Residency training in Family medicine would suffice in order for them to be good overal PCPs.....much better training than most NP/PA out there, that's for certain !!! :)




This whole fiasco of other professions getting into primary care has to do with the fact that the medical profession is failing to provide for its customers! The AMA and AOA or powers that be are not providing adequate PCPs and thus the void is being filled by:
NP's
DC/cRx
PA's
Naturopaths
Direct entry and certified midwives
PhD Psychologists with Rx privileges
AA, CRNA, etc.

Who knows? Perhaps the witchdoctor will get Rx privileges in the near future as well (sarcasm).

This is a very interesting development about the direction of primary care! There are 1000s of FMG/IMGs in the USA that are unable to secure a residency and obtain licensure yet there is a shortage of PCPs? No wonder we have so many other professions attempting to fill the void....its only a natural process.

CARICOM-MED
09-04-2010, 09:37 PM
Not disrespecting to NPs/PAs et al... it is an interesting point, and I wonder why the government will allow NPs/PAs etc... to work as PCPs instead of IMGs that are ECFMG certified that are surely more qualified....

I am curious what are your thoughts ?!?

Is it wiser than to pursue PA/NP, at least that is a sure thing ? vs. Pursue an offshore MD degree, and gamble with immense residency competition ? not to mention NP/PA is 50% shorter and much easier route....



This whole fiasco of other professions getting into primary care has to do with the fact that the medical profession is failing to provide for its customers! The AMA and AOA or powers that be are not providing adequate PCPs and thus the void is being filled by:
NP's
DC/cRx
PA's
Naturopaths
Direct entry and certified midwives
PhD Psychologists with Rx privileges
AA, CRNA, etc.

Who knows? Perhaps the witchdoctor will get Rx privileges in the near future as well (sarcasm).

This is a very interesting development about the direction of primary care! There are 1000s of FMG/IMGs in the USA that are unable to secure a residency and obtain licensure yet there is a shortage of PCPs? No wonder we have so many other professions attempting to fill the void....its only a natural process.

leadsled
09-05-2010, 09:19 AM
Not disrespecting to NPs/PAs et al... it is an interesting point, and I wonder why the government will allow NPs/PAs etc... to work as PCPs instead of IMGs that are ECFMG certified that are surely more qualified....

I am curious what are your thoughts ?!?

Is it wiser than to pursue PA/NP, at least that is a sure thing ? vs. Pursue an offshore MD degree, and gamble with immense residency competition ? not to mention NP/PA is 50% shorter and much easier route....

Certainly NP and PAs fill a huge gap in primary care in the USA. In addition, when utilized as "physician extenders", the MD or DO can maximize profits by hiring a few of them and providing collaborative supervision.

Apparently a few years back FMG/IMG were able to challenge the PA exam but the PA certification organization discontinued that practice citing an inferior education. I believe this was a fabricated lie to protect their interests. In my opiniion, the FMG/IMG certainly has the skills to adequately serve as a PA type provider. Especially if they are ECFMG certified. The only state that allows this is Florida which has a provision for them to attain a House Physician registration and work under the direct supervision of a Florida licensed physician.

I think state legislatures need to have a grass roots legislation proposed that will pattern Florida's rule and put the thousands of these folks to work until they are able to obtain a residency. Why waste this resource?? It's beyond my comprehension.

Here is a link to Ontario, Canada's Pilot study:
Foreign-trained doctors dominate pilot project -- Magnus 178 (11): 1411 -- Canadian Medical Association Journal (http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/178/11/1411)

leadsled
09-08-2010, 09:12 AM
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/726445?src=mp&spon=34&uac=68306CT

Results: Twenty six fatalities were published in the medical literature and many more might have remained unpublished. The alleged pathology usually was a vascular accident involving the dissection of a vertebral artery.

CARICOM-MED
09-09-2010, 04:08 PM
Think there were 26 fatalities in the hospital across from us, yesterday alone...sadly enough....
the fact that DCs don't do surgery or Rx meds, gives them a huge advantage and much lower malpractice premium.

As a medical doctor and an objective observer here: There are far more "deaths" due to medical errors or omissions...

leadsled
09-09-2010, 10:30 PM
Think there were 26 fatalities in the hospital across from us, yesterday alone...sadly enough....
the fact that DCs don't do surgery or Rx meds, gives them a huge advantage and much lower malpractice premium.

As a medical doctor and an objective observer here: There are far more "deaths" due to medical errors or omissions...


True but DC's are basically dealing with non invasive musculoskeletal discomfort. You are correct sir! Sadly, hundreds of thousands a year die from medical errors. A Boeing 747 crashes and it makes the headline news with 400 fatalities. medical errors that lead to fatalities numbers that in a days work across the globe. With a two year add on course can DC's practice primary care.....answer Yes! Heck, most PA/NP programs are two to 3 years, however most NP/PAs need a supervising physician. Personally, I think the DCs are facing an uphill battle getting this added scope in most states. Probably won't see it happen for a long time.

khiro
09-10-2010, 11:45 AM
i am close to age 50.....it is more likely that this would happen after my statistical natural death, around 25 plus years from now. but after being in the profession for 25 plus years i am not sure that it can be pulled off even then. so for those who are living now i would not recommend chiropractic as a profession. there are just so many problems; and so many options excluding chiro. thanks to the other medical-health professions that have progressed (offshore MDs, more DO schools, increased visibility with the podiatrists; good job security with the ODs; the increased X4 role of NPs and PAs).

because of the huge divide between chiropractors on a wide range of issues and the non-united front legislatively i honestly do not see a lot of progress coming forward with the DC profession. individuals may prosper, but that prosperity will not be (is not) available for every one, (and this has been getting worse since managed care really started kicking in the early 2000s). b/c of the time and cost involved in a chiro education (or any education), the student has been forced to become a consumer. and hopefully a discerning one at that. we have all heard of the guy that majored in art in college, got out and couldn't find a job. but art was what he really thought he wanted to do; in the end what mattered was getting a paycheck. if you can do chiro and get a paycheck in the amount that pleases you, then fine. but you can't do anything (or at least most people) without getting paid for it.

leadsled
09-10-2010, 12:13 PM
i am close to age 50.....it is more likely that this would happen after my statistical natural death, around 25 plus years from now. but after being in the profession for 25 plus years i am not sure that it can be pulled off even then. so for those who are living now i would not recommend chiropractic as a profession. there are just so many problems; and so many options excluding chiro. thanks to the other medical-health professions that have progressed (offshore MDs, more DO schools, increased visibility with the podiatrists; good job security with the ODs; the increased X4 role of NPs and PAs).

because of the huge divide between chiropractors on a wide range of issues and the non-united front legislatively i honestly do not see a lot of progress coming forward with the DC profession. individuals may prosper, but that prosperity will not be (is not) available for every one, (and this has been getting worse since managed care really started kicking in the early 2000s). b/c of the time and cost involved in a chiro education (or any education), the student has been forced to become a consumer. and hopefully a discerning one at that. we have all heard of the guy that majored in art in college, got out and couldn't find a job. but art was what he really thought he wanted to do; in the end what mattered was getting a paycheck. if you can do chiro and get a paycheck in the amount that pleases you, then fine. but you can't do anything (or at least most people) without getting paid for it.

Thank you for your advice! I particularly appreciate your advice to future students to be strategic in choosing a profession that puts bread on the table. Students are graduating in record numbers with a tremendous amount of debt and no job to pay it back. Thanks for sharing your wisdom!

CARICOM-MED
09-10-2010, 06:10 PM
Why Evidence Based DCs should pursue MSc (ACP) Options:

Ok I Did some online research on this credential for the DCs out there :)

In Any case the MSc for DC option is valid, and I think it will at least help the MD/DOs out there differentiate between Science based DCs vs. Subluxation based DCs. Same goes to the public, if someone is residing in rural area, and looking for PCP or similar and considering a Chiropractic Doctor, at least now, they have something to go by....

Similar to RN or NP with "Advnance Class certifications"

MSc, DC at least showed interest in science evidence based practices, are better trained in pharmacology, Primart Care and are collaborating with other MD/DO etc...So, in many ways all are pluses....

Times are Changing:
in New Mexico, DCs with MSc (ACP) can now prescribe Meds, and Botanicals etc...with broader scope than DC without the MSc(ACP) degree...

leadsled
09-12-2010, 04:35 PM
Times are Changing:
in New Mexico, DCs with MSc (ACP) can now prescribe Meds, and Botanicals etc...with broader scope than DC without the MSc(ACP) degree...

The prescriptive authority is very limited in New Mexico. DC's without Rx privileges are hiring NPs for a couple of hours a week to Rx this stuff in most states anyway. I guess they have to weigh the benefits and utility of going back to school for two more years and presently only having this privilege in a low population state like New Mexico.
16.4.15.11 CHIROPRACTIC FORMULARY:
A. Hormones for topical, sublingual, oral use
(1) estradiol
(2) progesterone
(3) testosterone
(4) desicated thyroid
B. Muscle relaxers; cyclobenzaprine
C. NSAIDs - prescription strength
(1) ibuprofen
(2) naproxen
D. Prescription medications for topical use
(1) NMDC Ca2 dextromethorphan
(2) NSAIDSs
(a) ketoprofen
(b) piroxicam
(c) naproxen
(d) ibuprofen
(e) diclofenac
(3) muscle relaxers; cyclobenzaprine
(4) sodium chanel antagonist; lidocaine
E. Homeopathics requiring prescription
F. Other substances by injection
(1) sterile water
(2) sterile saline
(3) sarapin or its generic
(4) caffeine
(5) procaine HCL
(6) epinephrine
(7) homeopathic for injection
G. Glutathione for inhalation
[16.4.15.11 NMAC - N, 09/11/2009; A, 7/23/2010]

http://www.nmcpr.state.nm.us/nmac/parts/title16/16.004.0015.pdf

khiro
09-13-2010, 01:52 PM
from the florida chiro society (the palmer, life guys) asking for action to oppose the council for chiro education (CCE) proposal to move the profession:

1) toward the DCM perspective. 2) away from the term subluxation. 3) toward the inclusion of drug therapy. 4) away from a drugless discipline. 5) toward a generalized common definition of primary care as used in primary medicine. 6) away from any definition of chiropractic and what a chiropractor does.

and i suppose you are asked to put your name in opposition and fax back to the CCE your total disgust in anyone who wants to monkey with the present status and practice of chiro.

o.k..... another wasted sheet of fax paper.

CARICOM-MED
09-13-2010, 11:47 PM
I Don't get it with some "Subluxation" Gurus out there ? why are you so stuck with this whole "Philosophy" if you want it, why not become a PhD Philosopher instead of a DC physician.......So many DCs I know, want to get into DO/MD programs, or if not, given the opportunity complete a program like that MSc (ACP) which will at least move your profession forward.....allow you to become PCP.....PAs and NPs are at least open minded enough and have the will to move forward and pursue PCP position and scope...but some of these "ICA" type DCs want to stay in the "Dark ages" of the 1800 :)

Pharmacology is here to stay, it is time to move with the times......

Cheers,

khiro
09-14-2010, 01:41 PM
being void of the history of chiro when i decided to start school, and being too busy to notice while in school, it became an eye-opener after starting my practice. all of it; the stupidity of how a chiro grad got his license; the discrimination toward DCs from some MDs, etc. today i would like to think that if it was 1982 i would have enough common sense not to do chiro all over again. now some of this has changed interestingly enough. the florida exam is now standard for all applicants, and the last i heard the florida board accepts the national board exams for licensure. believe it when i say that was not the case until just a few years back. insulting and backwards. chiro has always been painfully slow to change, and incorporate anything other than manipulation (oh crap, its adjustment!).

tell us USHADOC just how did you gain so much knowledge regarding the different sects of chiro?

CARICOM-MED
09-15-2010, 08:11 PM
We had 3 DCs in our class in Antigua, that wanted to be MDs, they were all from "science" based Chiro schools, and had enough with the politics, I've heard all about your profession for 20 months :)I know all about ***** Palmer and the politics of Chiropractic, straight vs. Mixers, evidence based, the good vs the bad schools...


being void of the history of chiro when i decided to start school, and being too busy to notice while in school, it became an eye-opener after starting my practice. all of it; the stupidity of how a chiro grad got his license; the discrimination toward DCs from some MDs, etc. today i would like to think that if it was 1982 i would have enough common sense not to do chiro all over again. now some of this has changed interestingly enough. the florida exam is now standard for all applicants, and the last i heard the florida board accepts the national board exams for licensure. believe it when i say that was not the case until just a few years back. insulting and backwards. chiro has always been painfully slow to change, and incorporate anything other than manipulation (oh crap, its adjustment!).

tell us USHADOC just how did you gain so much knowledge regarding the different sects of chiro?

khiro
09-16-2010, 11:10 AM
the reason i asked is that i doubt there are 5 MDs in the country who know the difference b/t ICA and ACA; straights versus mixers, palmer and lifers versus national, texas, et al; state societies versus state associations. i started my practice with an old DC who really wanted expansion of scope to the level of the optometrist and podiatrist. basically not a famdoc, but rather a DC with RX rights for those conditions normally seen by a DC (muscle and spine related). that was close to 25 yrs ago and he is dead now. i got my first literature from a caribbean school in 1991 (SGU) but decided to buy out the old DC and get married. you know, SGU was expensive back then!! i realize that chiro has made big strides in those 25 yrs in a lot of areas, but honestly sometimes i feel like all we are doing is washing and waxing the same car over and over again.

i appreciate your comments on this forum.




We had 3 DCs in our class in Antigua, that wanted to be MDs, they were all from "science" based Chiro schools, and had enough with the politics, I've heard all about your profession for 20 months :)I know all about ***** Palmer and the politics of Chiropractic, straight vs. Mixers, evidence based, the good vs the bad schools...

CARICOM-MED
09-19-2010, 02:52 PM
DC, MSc(ACP) Future from an Allopathic Perspective

No Problem :)
Don't think the ICA Ideology will last long, the public demand PCP, that are knowledgable in Pharmacology and are good in DDX, as well as modern Rx...

I predict the following:
Subluxation based DCs are going to end up working for DC, MSc(ACP) with broader scope....since, all they choose is the manipulate or adjust subluxations.. :)

DC, MSc(ACP) will end up integrating with hospitals, managed care groups, MDs/ DOs, treating diverse cases pertaining to MSK then slowly work as PCP (PA Scope)......


the reason i asked is that i doubt there are 5 MDs in the country who know the difference b/t ICA and ACA; straights versus mixers, palmer and lifers versus national, texas, et al; state societies versus state associations. i started my practice with an old DC who really wanted expansion of scope to the level of the optometrist and podiatrist. basically not a famdoc, but rather a DC with RX rights for those conditions normally seen by a DC (muscle and spine related). that was close to 25 yrs ago and he is dead now. i got my first literature from a caribbean school in 1991 (SGU) but decided to buy out the old DC and get married. you know, SGU was expensive back then!! i realize that chiro has made big strides in those 25 yrs in a lot of areas, but honestly sometimes i feel like all we are doing is washing and waxing the same car over and over again.

i appreciate your comments on this forum.

AgActual
09-19-2010, 10:25 PM
being void of the history of chiro when i decided to start school, and being too busy to notice while in school,I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that is how most students are today too. When i started at National, none of my fellow students knew anything about chiropractic philosophy. I did thanks to an episode of Penn and Teller's Bull S*it on chiropractic and many years of follow up research into what this field actually is all about.

Most of other students just decided on National because they lived in the area or they wanted to live in Chicago. I remember the first time i tried explaining to some of my friends there the difference between straight, mixer, and reform chrios and i might as well have been speaking Chinese. No one seemed to have any clue what it meant. Fortunately for them, they ended up at a good school but some are not so lucky.

Most people just enter chiro school because they want to fix back problems. Fair enough but they need to know about the shady story behind the field or they will get caught up in the gimmicky crap if they aren't careful. If you don't know anything about subluxations or why they are nonsense going in, and you end up in the wrong school, you will be a Palmer disciple in no time.

Thankfully we at National have a first semester class which teaches the history of chiropractic, so most of the students at National are straightened out and by the time they graduate, most are pretty good at what they do.

To me it seems like most people enter chiropractic school completely blind. They don't research the field, they assume that it is all about "back cracking", and after 4 years at the wrong school, they end up at malls giving free subluxation exams, and sound like idiots around anyone that took at least one biology class in their life. It is a game of chance that most of the students are playing and they don't even know it. If they stumble into a crappy school, their odd of doing anything rational or relevant in their career is near zero.

Real reform in this field might have to start with making sure that students coming in know what the hell they are getting in to and actually know something about chiropractic beyond "back cracking".

CARICOM-MED
09-19-2010, 11:13 PM
MSc option for DC:
Thanks for sharing, I researched some of the schools, and you are in a great program, so no worries, just focus on science and evidence based, and stay away from any philosophy nonesense....
Your school's president seems to know where it is at....primary care....
http://theintegratorblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=305&Itemid=1 (http://theintegratorblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=305&Itemid=1)

Hope that all chiro colleges will have the same philisophy....if I were you, I would continue and take the MSc option at your program, at least you will have a much better chance working with MDs as an evidence based DC....and you can differentiate yourself not just as "mixer" but a mixer with a MSc degree in Family Practice...Our medical group actually posted a job opportunity last week, looking for a DC with advance degree with Clinical practice like the MSc(ACP) at least we know, he talks our language, and not "subluxation" mambo jumbo :)

Good Luck !!!
Ever considered MD/DO programs ?


I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that is how most students are today too. When i started at National, none of my fellow students knew anything about chiropractic philosophy. I did thanks to an episode of Penn and Teller's Bull S*it on chiropractic and many years of follow up research into what this field actually is all about.

Most of other students just decided on National because they lived in the area or they wanted to live in Chicago. I remember the first time i tried explaining to some of my friends there the difference between straight, mixer, and reform chrios and i might as well have been speaking Chinese. No one seemed to have any clue what it meant. Fortunately for them, they ended up at a good school but some are not so lucky.

Most people just enter chiro school because they want to fix back problems. Fair enough but they need to know about the shady story behind the field or they will get caught up in the gimmicky crap if they aren't careful. If you don't know anything about subluxations or why they are nonsense going in, and you end up in the wrong school, you will be a Palmer disciple in no time.

Thankfully we at National have a first semester class which teaches the history of chiropractic, so most of the students at National are straightened out and by the time they graduate, most are pretty good at what they do.

To me it seems like most people enter chiropractic school completely blind. They don't research the field, they assume that it is all about "back cracking", and after 4 years at the wrong school, they end up at malls giving free subluxation exams, and sound like idiots around anyone that took at least one biology class in their life. It is a game of chance that most of the students are playing and they don't even know it. If they stumble into a crappy school, their odd of doing anything rational or relevant in their career is near zero.

Real reform in this field might have to start with making sure that students coming in know what the hell they are getting in to and actually know something about chiropractic beyond "back cracking".

AgActual
09-19-2010, 11:29 PM
Ever considered MD/DO programs

Na. The reason I got out of clinical psychology because it is far too stressful and going into medicine would have been moving sideways on that issue.

I settled on chiropractic because i have always been interested in orthopedic issues and neurology (legitimate neurological stuff, like pain management, not subluxations). Chiropractic seemed like a good fit. Low stress, good money (mostly) and a chance to do something in health care in an area that enjoy almost as much as psychology. Chiropractic wasn't my first choice but i am glad i am here, especially at this school.

Of course i know that medicine is a safer career with more prestige and greater opportunities but it just isn't my thing.

CARICOM-MED
09-22-2010, 12:52 PM
Chiropractic moving forward ?? CCAT + MSc (ACP)
Few Changes noted:
1. NUHS among other top DC schools, started to implement the CCAT requirement part of their admission process.
2. In addition top DC schools, advise their DC graduates & students to pursue the MSc (ACP) option for advance scope of practice..
considering these 2 major changes, I believe your profession is moving forward....
The Science based DCs, are better trained, meet higher admission standards and obtained graduate programs in advance clinical practices....and Yes PHARMACOLOGY & Medical DDX is part of the program :) Can you imagine that ?? it already implemented in broad scope / evidence based schools like Western States, NUHS & NorthWestern U.....

Hope the other "Quacky" schools like Sherman-Life-Palmer will not change things back for you guys....and insist to just "Correct & Diagnose" Subluxations :)

AgActual
09-26-2010, 02:43 PM
The problem i think this field has is that we don't make an effort to show the advancements we have made in the last few decades. Those that are distrustful of chiropractic often seem to think that chiropractic education is roughly the same as it was 40 years ago. I think they see a field where someone fresh out of high school can start chiropractic school; where you can get your DC in less than 2 years; where every professor at the schools is a chiropractor and the students aren't taught any basic sciences.

I think many would be surprised to learn that modern chiropractic colleges, even the bad ones, hire PhDs and medical doctors, that they have fully functioning basic science labs, research departments that receive state and federal grants. These are also places where students are taught real medical diagnostic skills, to cooperate with other health care professionals and to see them as allies, not rivals, and many schools have stopped teaching the old theories all together and instead focus on MSK treatments and nutrition.

Go through and read the chiropractic publications. The ACA's monthly magazine is full of debates; should chiropractors be treating children, should we more involved in nutrition, are cervical spine manipulations safe or are they risky and ineffective? Are practice management techniques unethical? These real back and forth discussions, not just closed minded propaganda. You see dissent, you see doubts and questions and real philosophical dialog.

And now we have entrance exams, hospital rotations, real residency programs, work with the military, and likely prescription privileges in the near future.

Yes chiropractic still has problems and is not where it needs to be, but i think people out there need to really look at where chiropractic is today and stop thinking that it is essentially the same as it was 20, 30, maybe even 50 years ago. I think a few might be surprised to see the evolution that has taken place in the past few decades.



Chiropractic moving forward ?? CCAT + MSc (ACP)
Few Changes noted:
1. NUHS among other top DC schools, started to implement the CCAT requirement part of their admission process.
2. In addition top DC schools, advise their DC graduates & students to pursue the MSc (ACP) option for advance scope of practice..
considering these 2 major changes, I believe your profession is moving forward....
The Science based DCs, are better trained, meet higher admission standards and obtained graduate programs in advance clinical practices....and Yes PHARMACOLOGY & Medical DDX is part of the program :) Can you imagine that ?? it already implemented in broad scope / evidence based schools like Western States, NUHS & NorthWestern U.....

Hope the other "Quacky" schools like Sherman-Life-Palmer will not change things back for you guys....and insist to just "Correct & Diagnose" Subluxations :)

khiro
09-27-2010, 09:53 AM
honest story. the DC i started out with finished high school and went right to chiro college in indiana (the school was absorbed by national at a later date), did 4 years chiro education and came out a doctor. this was 1960. he practiced for close to 30 yrs, gave his wife an early retirement, made some good investments, provided well for his children (all college educated on his dime) and ended up respected by the MDs that had to deal with him. chiro education has come a long way beyond high school diploma as a requirement for admission.

CARICOM-MED
09-27-2010, 07:46 PM
just need more collaborative effort among all DCs, to move forward :)

ChiroPhysician
09-27-2010, 08:43 PM
As a chiro 2 years out of school, significant changes have been made while I was attending school. The philosophy of chiropractic was taught during the first 2 quarters of school, but by no means was it crammed down our throats or made to be brainwashed into our minds. If anything, segmental joint dysfunction was more like a term we used. Many of the students received very knowledgeable information and chose the term that better suited their personality (subluxation/joint dysfunction). Schooling is not all bony misalignments and bone on nerve complexes with chiropractic meric charts. Some of the neuropathophysiological effects can be found in this article: Since I can't post links yet google search: Dr. Seaman, dysafferentation: a novel term

The clinic where I went to school implemented an evidence-based approach to treating patients using Dr. Don Murphy's google search: A theoretical model for the development of a diagnosis-based clinical decision rule for the management of patients with spinal pain. High complexity cases are taught once a week during the clinical portion of the schooling by MD's from the local hospital and radiologist from multiple imaging centers in the area.

I try to stay up on the latest and greatest research articles out there using reputable resources like Pubmed, AMA, ACA, chiro.org, NEJM, etc.

Much of the resistance I find from MD's is them not fully understanding what DC's as a profession actually do. The only people we can blame is ourselves for not educating other health care professionals. I can't speak for all DC's, as I use a different approach to treating my patients, but that's for another time and place.

AgActual
09-27-2010, 09:05 PM
Chirophysician, i am just wondering, which school did you graduate from, if you don't mind me asking?

I would definitely like to hear more about your experience. Your school certainly sounds like it is in the middle of updates and reforms, which seems to be the case with at least a few chiropractic institutions out there, which would be especially interesting if it was one of the schools that i have been bashing for the last few months. I have already had my mind changed on one chiropractic issue today. I wonder if this could be a second?

ChiroPhysician
09-27-2010, 09:17 PM
LOL no worries...I have developed pretty thick skin over the past couple of years. My intentions are not to attack anyone here, just answer any question I can about the chiropractic profession. I value MD's, DO's, PA's, etc., as we are all working towards a primary goal of treating a patient to the best of our ability.

I graduated from Palmer - Florida Campus

AgActual
09-27-2010, 09:35 PM
LOL no worries...I have developed pretty thick skin over the past couple of years. My intentions are not to attack anyone here, just answer any question I can about the chiropractic profession. I value MD's, DO's, PA's, etc., as we are all working towards a primary goal of treating a patient to the best of our ability.

I graduated from Palmer - Florida Campus

Ah, lovely. I definitely have questions. I don't often get the chance to talk to chiros that graduated from schools other than National or NYCC. Maybe you can show me where I have been wrong about your school? I like to keep an open mind, even when i am bashing other colleges. ;)

I will post a few questions tomorrow. I think i have taken a long enough break from studying for now.

And of course if you have any questions about National, feel free to ask.

CARICOM-MED
10-07-2010, 10:36 PM
DC-MSc(ACP) vs DC-PA/NP option
Another route that I posted earlier would be the DC-PA option, very nice scope and license in all 50 states :)
while the DC-MSc(ACP) is less than the PA scope, and ONLY in one state, NM.....
Both programs are 2 years Master's program.....so if you ask me, I would highly recommend the PA or NP route, if I was a DC looking to expand scope for less time & money... would take you to be a licensed MD/DO (6-7 YEARS)....


Ah, lovely. I definitely have questions. I don't often get the chance to talk to chiros that graduated from schools other than National or NYCC. Maybe you can show me where I have been wrong about your school? I like to keep an open mind, even when i am bashing other colleges. ;)

I will post a few questions tomorrow. I think i have taken a long enough break from studying for now.

And of course if you have any questions about National, feel free to ask.

leadsled
10-08-2010, 09:35 PM
DC-MSc(ACP) vs DC-PA/NP option
Another route that I posted earlier would be the DC-PA option, very nice scope and license in all 50 states :)
while the DC-MSc(ACP) is less than the PA scope, and ONLY in one state, NM.....
Both programs are 2 years Master's program.....so if you ask me, I would highly recommend the PA or NP route, if I was a DC looking to expand scope for less time & money... would take you to be a licensed MD/DO (6-7 YEARS)....

From what I understand, a PA's scope is directly linked to a supervising MD or DO. So a DC that was a PA would still have to work under a MD or DO. However, a DC that is a NP could work autonomously in many states.

CARICOM-MED
10-09-2010, 01:39 PM
DC Options: MSc/MA 2 Years for expanded scope
Thanks, You just provided example on the diversity in views among DCs.
As I see it, the Straights will remain DCs, and have no intention in increasing their scope or offering other services BUT Adjustments or DDX is ONLY subluxations.
The Mixers, want to work as PCP, and have expanded scope of practice, and are willing to collaborate with DO/MDs.
Solution:
I know few DCs that are evidence science based that are now pursuing other programs:

1. Re-enroll in MD/DO take the MCAT etc:
VERY long road:(4 years & NO advance standing then 3-5 years residency. Cost 200K plus Residency-Guaranteed for the most part. Income typically is 150-200K for FM MD.

2. PA (or NP) Program: 1-2 years, Some NP/PA will provide with advance standing & you can complete the program in One Year. one that is already in a PA program. Cost: 35K-50K No Residency, work outlook is VERY good. 75-90K per year for a PA.
NP follows the RN/Nursing Route
PA follows th MD Route, makes more sense to DCs.
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Unlike NPs, PAs can Rx Meds in all 50 states, refer to Lab DDX & perform minor surgeries.
3. MD (IMG Route)
We had few DCs in our class that got their MDs (40 months program.) but never matched, so in my opinion IMG route is risky business, & one that is becoming a thing of the past. 150-200K, Residency NOT Guaranteed. if not licensed then NO income !!

4.MSc (ACP) offered by NUHS: 2 years (weekends & online based ). New program, in infancy, but acceptance is growing. NM already granted DCs with MSc(ACP) RX/DDX added scope. Cost: 30K, Income varies after graduation, state dependant.


As a chiro 2 years out of school, significant changes have been made while I was attending school. The philosophy of chiropractic was taught during the first 2 quarters of school, but by no means was it crammed down our throats or made to be brainwashed into our minds. If anything, segmental joint dysfunction was more like a term we used. Many of the students received very knowledgeable information and chose the term that better suited their personality (subluxation/joint dysfunction). Schooling is not all bony misalignments and bone on nerve complexes with chiropractic meric charts. Some of the neuropathophysiological effects can be found in this article: Since I can't post links yet google search: Dr. Seaman, dysafferentation: a novel term.
The clinic where I went to school implemented an evidence-based approach to treating patients using Dr. Don Murphy's google search: A theoretical model for the development of a diagnosis-based clinical decision rule for the management of patients with spinal pain. High complexity cases are taught once a week during the clinical portion of the schooling by MD's from the local hospital and radiologist from multiple imaging centers in the area. I try to stay up on the latest and greatest research articles out there using reputable resources like Pubmed, AMA, ACA, chiro.org, NEJM, etc.
Much of the resistance I find from MD's is them not fully understanding what DC's as a profession actually do. The only people we can blame is ourselves for not educating other health care professionals. I can't speak for all DC's, as I use a different approach to treating my patients, but that's for another time and place.







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