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bhavitski
07-22-2010, 05:48 PM
I'm a third year student trying to calculate the dangers of coming to Saba. Lets say for arguement's sake that after coming to Saba you pass everything and get a score of 80 on the Step 1. How likely are you to get ANY residency in the States as a Canadian student (I'm not picky at all)? What is the match percentage of all Saba students that actually make it this far and pass the Step 1 on their first try?

I'm trying to gauge what risks there are even after passing everything and doing all you can to get good scores ie. what is out of your hands.

Thanks a lot

sgMD
07-22-2010, 06:33 PM
if you make it through the basic sciences, there is a 90% chance that you will match in either US or Canada. (which is the highest rate amongst the caribbean medical schools).

But what do you mean by a score of 80? You mean 80th percentile? I think the average for Saba is around 220 on step1.

devildoc8404
07-22-2010, 06:50 PM
USMLE 2-digit score is not a percentile, it's a... well... it's a 2-digit score. (That's a common misconception, but it ain't a percentile.)

You get a 3-digit score, and you get a corollated 2-digit score, but I don't think I have ever seen a decent description of how that 2-digit number is calculated. It can even vary, with the same 3-digit score tallying different 2-digit scores during different times of the year.

sgMD
07-22-2010, 07:38 PM
cool... thank you for the useful info... I am not sure what 220 would translate in a 2 digit score... does anyone know?

bhavitski
07-22-2010, 08:15 PM
Whoa, so you have a 10% of throwing away four years and $150k even if you do everything right? Thats pretty high...where are you getting this 90% from?

By the step 1 score I just meant getting an average score.

sgMD
07-22-2010, 08:21 PM
Whoa, so you have a 10% of throwing away four years and $150k even if you do everything right? Thats pretty high...where are you getting this 90% from?

By the step 1 score I just meant getting an average score.


first of all 90% is an AMAZING match rate... even US schools don't have 100% match rate... due to various reasons

1) some students only apply to 1 single program... they might have stellar USMLE scores, but they only apply to one program and they dont get in. One person from Saba falls in this category.

2) some don't match, but match the following year. Some girl from Saba applied to only derm programs, didn't get in, worked as a research assistant or something in a US hospital, reapplied and got in to Derm the following year.

and i'm sure there are other scenarios...

this data was given to us today by the clinical dean who was visiting the campus... so it's pretty fresh, recent and reliable.

bhavitski
07-22-2010, 08:36 PM
That's actually really inspiring, I had all but given up on the MD dream.

Molecule of Life
07-22-2010, 10:31 PM
That's actually really inspiring, I had all but given up on the MD dream.

All things are possible to those who believe.

B_W_
07-22-2010, 10:38 PM
Don't come here unless it's an absolute must. This is not a knock on the school but the majority of ppl here all say the same thing... I wish I had listened to the ppl on ValueMD. SG is right but what he didn't mention as well was that the avg exit # of students come 5th semester is 45 DESPITE the entering class sizes increasing. So your chances have just gone down further. This isn't meant to scare you but rather to be a reality check. Knowing what I know now I would've exhausted ALL my options back home (MD and DO) before considering a Caribbean school. $150,000 in debt and no degree to show for it should be enough of a deterrent for you to set aside laziness in writing applications and up-grading courses and to look into all other avenues first and then come down here.
Good luck

jackets5
07-22-2010, 10:53 PM
The average score for US medstudents is a 220. I seriously doubt any Carrib school has an average close to 220, its more than likely closer to 200 than it is 220

Bob Dole
07-23-2010, 12:14 AM
The average score for US medstudents is a 220. I seriously doubt any Carrib school has an average close to 220, its more than likely closer to 200 than it is 220

Yeah but no US medical school has a 50% dropout rate. Only the strong survive to the end of 2nd year and take the USMLE. Also, a lot of caribbean schools (including the big 4) devote an entire 5th semester to prepare for the USMLE.

sgMD
07-23-2010, 08:47 AM
Don't come here unless it's an absolute must. This is not a knock on the school but the majority of ppl here all say the same thing... I wish I had listened to the ppl on ValueMD. SG is right but what he didn't mention as well was that the avg exit # of students come 5th semester is 45 DESPITE the entering class sizes increasing. So your chances have just gone down further. This isn't meant to scare you but rather to be a reality check. Knowing what I know now I would've exhausted ALL my options back home (MD and DO) before considering a Caribbean school. $150,000 in debt and no degree to show for it should be enough of a deterrent for you to set aside laziness in writing applications and up-grading courses and to look into all other avenues first and then come down here.
Good luck


this is true. Come down here if your gpa is 3.0 and your MCAT is 24 and there is no way you can get into any school in the US/Canada.

bhavitski
07-23-2010, 12:17 PM
So in order to make the final class size 45, have there been people that were perfectly capable of passing the Step 1 but just got weeded out because the school didn't have enough clinical spots or whatnot?

If you pass every test/block are you guaranteed to be in that 45 or is it a case of the school taking the 45 best students and leaving the rest even though some of the others may be well qualified as well?

B_W_
07-23-2010, 02:02 PM
Depending on who you talk to and what kind of a day they're having they might tell you one way or the other. Personally I don't believe that's the case. All I'm saying is that the workload is intense, in a short period of time, on an island where ammenities and facilities (esp. medical facilities) are scarce. If you break your leg you (as has happened this semester) you might not find someone competent enough to read the X-ray. If anything more severe were to happen you would ave to be flown out. These are extraneous variables that students don't take into account when applying to a Caribbean school but it is a real possibility so take it into consideration.
Island life can be great, when you find time to enjoy it, but given the choice b/w school back home or here it's a no-brainer.

Idiots
07-23-2010, 02:31 PM
The average score for US medstudents is a 220. I seriously doubt any Carrib school has an average close to 220, its more than likely closer to 200 than it is 220

Actually, more than 70% of the graduating class from Saba is Canadian, and they're mostly here because Canadian medical school entrance requirements are far more stringent than American ones. The most recent Path Shelf scores for 5th semester had an average of 560, which according to NBME, correlates to a USMLE score of 232. That's 70th percentile.

Saba has had only 1 Step1 failure in the last year, and the average Step1 pass score is around 220. The reason for this is as stated earlier, Saba takes about 100 students each semester, and only about 45 graduate after 5 semesters on the island. Students who fail the exit exam are not permitted to write Step1.

All of these numbers come from reliable sources.

Idiots
07-23-2010, 02:34 PM
So in order to make the final class size 45, have there been people that were perfectly capable of passing the Step 1 but just got weeded out because the school didn't have enough clinical spots or whatnot?

If you pass every test/block are you guaranteed to be in that 45 or is it a case of the school taking the 45 best students and leaving the rest even though some of the others may be well qualified as well?

That is correct. If you pass all of your classes, you will be in the final 45. The school is set up to fail slightly over half of the students, and they will not make it through 5 semesters.

seattle
07-23-2010, 02:53 PM
So in order to make the final class size 45, have there been people that were perfectly capable of passing the Step 1 but just got weeded out because the school didn't have enough clinical spots or whatnot?

If you pass every test/block are you guaranteed to be in that 45 or is it a case of the school taking the 45 best students and leaving the rest even though some of the others may be well qualified as well?

Saba is one of the most reputable schools in the Caribbean. I realize there exists a lot of apprehension with the island schools, and hence I only recommend Saba, SGU, AUC, or Ross. Obviously, I am biased to recommend Saba because of my positive experience with the school.

Having said this, the school curriculum is extremely difficult. What seems to be the biggest hurdle is not the complicated nature of the courses, but the shear volume that one needs to memorize in a very short time frame. Exams come around every 3 weeks and when compared to the volume you learn in those 3 weeks multiplied by the number of courses - well you get the picture.

So, in my opinion the school is not purposely attempting to fail out any student. There always exists a lot of controversy on this issue. It is the individual's weaknesses that cause the student to fail themselves out of the program. Honestly, very rarely does one get to 4th or 5th semester and fail out. I have only known of 1 student who took the NBME twice and failed both attempts. It is very, very rare to make it to the upper semesters and fail out.

Remember, these are all for-profit institutions. Getting in is not the difficulty as much as getting thru all the exams and passing the NBME. Yes, we do lose approximately 40% of students along the way but it is NOT due to the schools policy of failing students to keep the numbers low. Everyone takes the same exam, same questions, same time frame in a very controlled testing center setting; where cheating is an impossibility. It is the student's academic weaknesses that become apparent very quickly that cause them to fail out unfortunately.

Now the real question is what type of student are YOU? Not what type of school is Saba. Saba WILL give you all the tools to pass the Step 1 exam. It is not rocket science. You need to carefully evaluate your weaknesses; especially when it comes to memorizing and recalling vast amounts of information. If you are good with that skill -then you are more than likely going to make it thru the program.

So the best advice here would be this - you have picked a good school when it comes to the Caribbean. People who do make it thru this program will in a vast majority of cases match in the U.S. You are NOT wasting your money at this school. Now are you a strong enough student to handle the rigorous program? Think about that very carefully! Only you can tell. We can all give you our opinions but we are not you!

sgMD
07-23-2010, 03:05 PM
Saba is one of the most reputable schools in the Caribbean. I realize there exists a lot of apprehension with the island schools, and hence I only recommend Saba, SGU, AUC, or Ross. Obviously, I am biased to recommend Saba because of my positive experience with the school.

Having said this, the school curriculum is extremely difficult. What seems to be the biggest hurdle is not the complicated nature of the courses, but the shear volume that one needs to memorize in a very short time frame. Exams come around every 3 weeks and when compared to the volume you learn in those 3 weeks multiplied by the number of courses - well you get the picture.

So, in my opinion the school is not purposely attempting to fail out any student. There always exists a lot of controversy on this issue. It is the individual's weaknesses that cause the student to fail themselves out of the program. Honestly, very rarely does one get to 4th or 5th semester and fail out. I have only known of 1 student who took the NBME twice and failed both attempts. It is very, very rare to make it to the upper semesters and fail out.

Remember, these are all for-profit institutions. Getting in is not the difficulty as much as getting thru all the exams and passing the NBME. Yes, we do lose approximately 40% of students along the way but it is NOT due to the schools policy of failing students to keep the numbers low. Everyone takes the same exam, same questions, same time frame in a very controlled testing center setting; where cheating is an impossibility. It is the student's academic weaknesses that become apparent very quickly that cause them to fail out unfortunately.

Now the real question is what type of student are YOU? Not what type of school is Saba. Saba WILL give you all the tools to pass the Step 1 exam. It is not rocket science. You need to carefully evaluate your weaknesses; especially when it comes to memorizing and recalling vast amounts of information. If you are good with that skill -then you are more than likely going to make it thru the program.

So the best advice here would be this - you have picked a good school when it comes to the Caribbean. People who do make it thru this program will in a vast majority of cases match in the U.S. You are NOT wasting your money at this school. Now are you a strong enough student to handle the rigorous program? Think about that very carefully! Only you can tell. We can all give you our opinions but we are not you!


Prospective students: write this post with gold, read it 10 times and then apply to Saba. Words of wisdom. Couldn't have said this better. Two thumbs up Seattle.

Idiots
07-23-2010, 03:46 PM
Saba is one of the most reputable schools in the Caribbean. I realize there exists a lot of apprehension with the island schools, and hence I only recommend Saba, SGU, AUC, or Ross. Obviously, I am biased to recommend Saba because of my positive experience with the school.

Having said this, the school curriculum is extremely difficult. What seems to be the biggest hurdle is not the complicated nature of the courses, but the shear volume that one needs to memorize in a very short time frame. Exams come around every 3 weeks and when compared to the volume you learn in those 3 weeks multiplied by the number of courses - well you get the picture.

So, in my opinion the school is not purposely attempting to fail out any student. There always exists a lot of controversy on this issue. It is the individual's weaknesses that cause the student to fail themselves out of the program. Honestly, very rarely does one get to 4th or 5th semester and fail out. I have only known of 1 student who took the NBME twice and failed both attempts. It is very, very rare to make it to the upper semesters and fail out.

Remember, these are all for-profit institutions. Getting in is not the difficulty as much as getting thru all the exams and passing the NBME. Yes, we do lose approximately 40% of students along the way but it is NOT due to the schools policy of failing students to keep the numbers low. Everyone takes the same exam, same questions, same time frame in a very controlled testing center setting; where cheating is an impossibility. It is the student's academic weaknesses that become apparent very quickly that cause them to fail out unfortunately.

Now the real question is what type of student are YOU? Not what type of school is Saba. Saba WILL give you all the tools to pass the Step 1 exam. It is not rocket science. You need to carefully evaluate your weaknesses; especially when it comes to memorizing and recalling vast amounts of information. If you are good with that skill -then you are more than likely going to make it thru the program.

So the best advice here would be this - you have picked a good school when it comes to the Caribbean. People who do make it thru this program will in a vast majority of cases match in the U.S. You are NOT wasting your money at this school. Now are you a strong enough student to handle the rigorous program? Think about that very carefully! Only you can tell. We can all give you our opinions but we are not you!

Good post! It is true that Saba will give you all the tools required to become a good doctor, and if you have what it takes to become a good doctor, you will become one with Saba. Saba will not let anyone out of here that they aren't certain has what it takes, and Saba will will not hesitate to boot anyone they feel is lacking. But becoming the success story is entirely dependent upon the student. There's no trickery involved. Meet their requirement set out here, and you will not be wasting your money.

Lowbo
07-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Seattle!!!:-d:-d:-d

baklava
07-24-2010, 12:21 PM
first of all 90% is an AMAZING match rate... even US schools don't have 100% match rate... due to various reasons

1) some students only apply to 1 single program... they might have stellar USMLE scores, but they only apply to one program and they dont get in. One person from Saba falls in this category.

2) some don't match, but match the following year. Some girl from Saba applied to only derm programs, didn't get in, worked as a research assistant or something in a US hospital, reapplied and got in to Derm the following year.

and i'm sure there are other scenarios...

this data was given to us today by the clinical dean who was visiting the campus... so it's pretty fresh, recent and reliable.

That is not accurate:

From the NRMP results and data report for 2010, on page 9, one can obtain the following data:

[note: for unmatched, do 100%- matched %]

Matched U.S. seniors = 93.7%
Matched Osteo seniors = 70.6%
Canadian Seniors going for U.S. match = 75%
*U.S. citizens of international medical schools [i.e. U.S. students in Saba, Ross, AUC, St. George's etc] = 47.3 %, 52.7% UNMATCHED.
*Non-U.S. citizen of international medical schools [e.g. Cdns applying for U.S. residency] = 39.8 matched, 60.2% UNMATCHED

*students at saba lie in these two categories.

There is no way the rate of matching out of Saba is 90%, given majority of the class is Canadian, even with the pre-matches, I would guesstimate, that its around 50-60% in any year.

And this is for 2010. It will get more and more competitive as the years come by since U.S. Allopathic and Osteopathic grads are maintaining a high % of match as well as high enrollment.
Its def. NOT 90% and thinking that way would be a huge mistake come match time.

bhavitski
07-24-2010, 12:32 PM
That is not accurate:

From the NRMP results and data report for 2010, on page 9, one can obtain the following data:

[note: for unmatched, do 100%- matched %]

Matched U.S. seniors = 93.7%
Matched Osteo seniors = 70.6%
Canadian Seniors going for U.S. match = 75%
*U.S. citizens of international medical schools [i.e. U.S. students in Saba, Ross, AUC, St. George's etc] = 47.3 %, 52.7% UNMATCHED.
*Non-U.S. citizen of international medical schools [e.g. Cdns applying for U.S. residency] = 39.8 matched, 60.2% UNMATCHED

*students at saba lie in these two categories.

There is no way the rate of matching out of Saba is 90%, given majority of the class is Canadian, even with the pre-matches, I would guesstimate, that its around 50-60% in any year.

And this is for 2010. It will get more and more competitive as the years come by since U.S. Allopathic and Osteopathic grads are maintaining a high % of match as well as high enrollment.
Its def. NOT 90% and thinking that way would be a huge mistake come match time.


You're forgetting that those stats include the rest of the world, and Caribbean students are probably much more likely to match than some guy from the slums of Mumbai with zero U.S. clinical experience.

Also, how would you Saba students compare the amount of material/difficulty level to a science undergrad from reputable Canadian universities like UBC or UofT? Is there more material but the overall difficulty is less?

Thanks

baklava
07-24-2010, 12:46 PM
You're forgetting that those stats include the rest of the world, and Caribbean students are probably much more likely to match than some guy from the slums of Mumbai with zero U.S. clinical experience.

Also, how would you Saba students compare the amount of material/difficulty level to a science undergrad from reputable Canadian universities like UBC or UofT? Is there more material but the overall difficulty is less?

Thanks
what makes you think that an American studying at Carib is THAT much better than studying in 'slums?' just because there is emphasis on USMLE Step 1 prep?

You dont think other students have access to Kaplan books, and bootleg videos and question banks? There is a LOT of information around, and there is no reason for me to believe that the U.S. IMG fron Non-carib schools are THAT much worse at taking tests.

and the most important reason why the match has become competitive is because:

**USMLE WORLD, USMLE WORLD, USMLEWORLD**

do USMLE WORLD twice and you are pretty much guaranteed a 90+ on step 1, which is a 220+.


During my rotations and matching process, I met tonnes of applicants from overseas who had ridiculous scores. Some of them were americans, but did schooling in australia, lebanon, etc.
And honestly, they appeared to be more 'complete' physicians than carib counterparts. The point is, just because you go to Saba, does NOT mean that you will automatically do well on step 1 and match.

This is a misconception and not realistic. The numbers are in black and white from the body that organizes the match, and you can see barely 50% of U.S. IMGs end up matching in a given cycle through the match.

If you play around with the numbers, and even assume that St. George's, Ross, AUC and Saba makes up a significant portion of IMGs [which they DON'T] and are overall match better than the U.S.IMG from Non-caribbean schools, I doubt its better than 70% - given Osteos only match 70% and Cdns only match 75%.

Its getting tough, period. and if you are going to be matching in 3-4 years, you would need to bring your A game because it will only get more and more competitive. the last thing you need is to be given a false sense of security.

baklava
07-24-2010, 12:52 PM
also, have a look on page 12-13 of that document.. page 21 of the pdf

it shows you a nice trend as to how there is a reduction of % matching for USIMG and IMG every year while U.S. grads are staying the same.

i cant post a direct link because i dont have 20 posts yet.

google NRMP, and go to their webpage, on teh right hand side, you will see 'data and reports', open that pdf.

Molecule of Life
07-24-2010, 12:53 PM
That is not accurate:

There is no way the rate of matching out of Saba is 90%, given majority of the class is Canadian, even with the pre-matches, I would guesstimate, that its around 50-60% in any year.

And this is for 2010. It will get more and more competitive as the years come by since U.S. Allopathic and Osteopathic grads are maintaining a high % of match as well as high enrollment.
Its def. NOT 90% and thinking that way would be a huge mistake come match time.

The Caribbean Medical schools (Big 4) are deliberately based off the American medical curriculum in the way they deliver their education (4 yrs, USMLE-geared, clinicals in the US) so that they can produce doctors who will inevitably be working in the US. Although internationals match with a 40% success rate, this is based on every school outside of the US. Because of this, you have unqualified physicians by the masses applying from India, China, and elsewhere who have never even set foot in the states for clinicals. Altogether, there are more than 10,000 applicants applying from overseas, of which about 4500 make it for the residency for the US. I am willing to wager that the Big 4 are among the most successful of international schools and that numbers up to 90% match rate are not inflated. These schools do not always graduate a ton of students (ex. Saba graduates around 50 I believe), so it is not only plausible, but, as I have argued, very possible for a 90% match rate since one can easily account for the other 4450 residents being spread out among weaker schools. In fact, I am willing to go so far to say that in the coming years, as internationals get reduced in the match as predicted, places like Saba will still maintain a high 90% match success since they are among the best to train doctors who are US-geared. The reduction of internationals will be occurring in places where students are not as prepared as they are from the Big 4, and it will ultimately be these who do not make the cut.

Idiots
07-24-2010, 02:25 PM
That is not accurate:

From the NRMP results and data report for 2010, on page 9, one can obtain the following data:

[note: for unmatched, do 100%- matched %]

Matched U.S. seniors = 93.7%
Matched Osteo seniors = 70.6%
Canadian Seniors going for U.S. match = 75%
*U.S. citizens of international medical schools [i.e. U.S. students in Saba, Ross, AUC, St. George's etc] = 47.3 %, 52.7% UNMATCHED.
*Non-U.S. citizen of international medical schools [e.g. Cdns applying for U.S. residency] = 39.8 matched, 60.2% UNMATCHED

*students at saba lie in these two categories.

There is no way the rate of matching out of Saba is 90%, given majority of the class is Canadian, even with the pre-matches, I would guesstimate, that its around 50-60% in any year.

And this is for 2010. It will get more and more competitive as the years come by since U.S. Allopathic and Osteopathic grads are maintaining a high % of match as well as high enrollment.
Its def. NOT 90% and thinking that way would be a huge mistake come match time.
I'm basing 80-90% on direct match results from the last match. You're basing your data on extrapolation from a huge sample of students who are not at Saba. Which numbers are more reliable?
Also, how does that data work? Does that include Canadian student who applied for Canada and the US, and got accepted into Canada and went there? 22 students fall into that category from the last Saba match, and that's not a trivial amount when you consider maybe 110-120 Saba students try to match each semester.
Also, is it really fair to lump Canadians at foreign medical schools geared towards the United states with students from Nigeria, India, Pakistan, and a host of other countries not geared towards the United States?

Feel free to disagree, but I'm giving you the stats that exist for Saba. If you want to quote stats that broadly apply to all medical schools, and tell me they represent Saba, that is your choice.

baklava
07-24-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm basing 80-90% on direct match results from the last match. You're basing your data on extrapolation from a huge sample of students who are not at Saba. Which numbers are more reliable?
Also, how does that data work? Does that include Canadian student who applied for Canada and the US, and got accepted into Canada and went there? 22 students fall into that category from the last Saba match, and that's not a trivial amount when you consider maybe 110-120 Saba students try to match each semester.
Also, is it really fair to lump Canadians at foreign medical schools geared towards the United states with students from Nigeria, India, Pakistan, and a host of other countries not geared towards the United States?

Feel free to disagree, but I'm giving you the stats that exist for Saba. If you want to quote stats that broadly apply to all medical schools, and tell me they represent Saba, that is your choice.
where are the saba stats?

do you have a link or a pdf, which shows what % is matching?

if not, then you cant really say that 80-90% match based on what someone told you.

baklava
07-24-2010, 02:35 PM
The Caribbean Medical schools (Big 4) are deliberately based off the American medical curriculum in the way they deliver their education (4 yrs, USMLE-geared, clinicals in the US) so that they can produce doctors who will inevitably be working in the US. Although internationals match with a 40% success rate, this is based on every school outside of the US. Because of this, you have unqualified physicians by the masses applying from India, China, and elsewhere who have never even set foot in the states for clinicals. Altogether, there are more than 10,000 applicants applying from overseas, of which about 4500 make it for the residency for the US. I am willing to wager that the Big 4 are among the most successful of international schools and that numbers up to 90% match rate are not inflated. These schools do not always graduate a ton of students (ex. Saba graduates around 50 I believe), so it is not only plausible, but, as I have argued, very possible for a 90% match rate since one can easily account for the other 4450 residents being spread out among weaker schools. In fact, I am willing to go so far to say that in the coming years, as internationals get reduced in the match as predicted, places like Saba will still maintain a high 90% match success since they are among the best to train doctors who are US-geared. The reduction of internationals will be occurring in places where students are not as prepared as they are from the Big 4, and it will ultimately be these who do not make the cut.
again, thats nice and all in theory, but you need to base your assumptions on concrete data - which you dont have.

i am saying based on my experience during matching, interviewing, the NRMP tables, and the current residents in my program.

90% for saba doesnt make any sense unfortunately. sure 100% of ALL saba students will match EVENTUALLY, but in a given year, i highly doubt its that high - my graduation ceremony did not look that full to convince me of that.

it has nothing to do with how great the school is, or not. its not saba's doing at all.

it has to do with the changing dynamics of the match, and increased U.S. enrollment.

and by the way, many states, and many programs strongly discourage against carib schools...hence the reason, saba students cant do rotations in many NE states, including NJ and PA. so its not all sunshine and flowers :)

Morael
07-24-2010, 03:06 PM
again, thats nice and all in theory, but you need to base your assumptions on concrete data - which you dont have.

i am saying based on my experience during matching, interviewing, the NRMP tables, and the current residents in my program.

90% for saba doesnt make any sense unfortunately. sure 100% of ALL saba students will match EVENTUALLY, but in a given year, i highly doubt its that high - my graduation ceremony did not look that full to convince me of that.

it has nothing to do with how great the school is, or not. its not saba's doing at all.

it has to do with the changing dynamics of the match, and increased U.S. enrollment.

and by the way, many states, and many programs strongly discourage against carib schools...hence the reason, saba students cant do rotations in many NE states, including NJ and PA. so its not all sunshine and flowers :)


Well I guess the same way you're extrapolating facts, I feel that the 90% stat that was presented isnt entire false. Infact, I think extrapolating numbers from the NRMP website is not very accurate for the top 4 schools, for many of the reasons mentioned above.

This is my take on how they came up with the 90%.

If you look at the match result posted by SABA there are 120 Graduates that have matched in 2010 alone.
Assuming 45 students (based on stat provided a memebe above) successfully complete their 5 semesters... you have a total of 45 x 3 = 135 students (from the 2006 year) applying for residency positions for the 2010 year. 120 / 135 students have successfully matched. Well the remaining 15? The list doesnt take into account the people who have prematched, and the list provided does not take into account multiple matches that occur at the same location (they use to do that in the previous years but not for the 2010 list). When you take all of that into account you have a very close to 90% match rate.

Now I believe although as great as this sounds, you have to take into account that the high attrition rate at these schools. I feel that if you work hard, and dont get too caught up with "STATS" from NRMP websites and such, while successfully completing your 5 semesters + clinicals + good step 1 scores (220+)... you have a very good chance at matching (90%).

^ But to get to that position... you have to kill yourself and really excel while you are on the island.

So at face value, saba takes 100 students a semester... totaling 300 students for one year. Out of that 120 students match. Using these numbers, the match rate is a dismal 40%. However, if you are in the top 50% of your class during your basic science's and pass all your exams... you have a very good chance at matching.

Correct me if i am wrong?

sgMD
07-24-2010, 03:07 PM
again, thats nice and all in theory, but you need to base your assumptions on concrete data - which you dont have.

i am saying based on my experience during matching, interviewing, the NRMP tables, and the current residents in my program.

90% for saba doesnt make any sense unfortunately. sure 100% of ALL saba students will match EVENTUALLY, but in a given year, i highly doubt its that high - my graduation ceremony did not look that full to convince me of that.

it has nothing to do with how great the school is, or not. its not saba's doing at all.

it has to do with the changing dynamics of the match, and increased U.S. enrollment.

and by the way, many states, and many programs strongly discourage against carib schools...hence the reason, saba students cant do rotations in many NE states, including NJ and PA. so its not all sunshine and flowers :)

90% match in Canada and US...

24 people from Saba ONLY applied to Canada for residency and 21 got residencies!

And the USMLE score for Saba is 217. These are the data given to us by the clinical dean.

bhavitski
07-24-2010, 03:26 PM
How would you Saba students compare the amount of material/difficulty level to a science undergrad from reputable Canadian universities like UBC or UofT? Is there more material but the overall difficulty is less?

Thanks

devildoc8404
07-24-2010, 03:38 PM
what makes you think that an American studying at Carib is THAT much better than studying in 'slums?' just because there is emphasis on USMLE Step 1 prep?

No. The US/Carib student has bona fide USCE. The FMG does not (in most cases). Also, the US/Carib student has a lovely blue passport with gold lettering on it, which means that s/he doesn't need a visa. If you don't think that matters, you are kidding yourself.

You dont think other students have access to Kaplan books, and bootleg videos and question banks? There is a LOT of information around, and there is no reason for me to believe that the U.S. IMG fron Non-carib schools are THAT much worse at taking tests.

English language ability matters when taking the USMLE. There are plenty of smart people who fail it because their language skills aren't up to snuff.

do USMLE WORLD twice and you are pretty much guaranteed a 90+ on step 1, which is a 220+.

I sure hope you are right!

The numbers are in black and white from the body that organizes the match, and you can see barely 50% of U.S. IMGs end up matching in a given cycle through the match.

Yes, but the numbers are obviously different between the Big 4 (and reputable foreign institutions) and the dregs of the Carib (and less-reputable foreign institutions). It's not 50% across the board for every school, for crying out loud!

If you play around with the numbers, and even assume that St. George's, Ross, AUC and Saba makes up a significant portion of IMGs [which they DON'T] and are overall match better than the U.S.IMG from Non-caribbean schools, I doubt its better than 70% - given Osteos only match 70% and Cdns only match 75%.

You are forgetting that Osteopathic students also apply to the DO Match. 70% of them match into MD residencies, but that doesn't mean that the other ~30% are flipping burgers for a year.

Its getting tough, period. and if you are going to be matching in 3-4 years, you would need to bring your A game because it will only get more and more competitive. the last thing you need is to be given a false sense of security.

That's for sure.

sgMD
07-24-2010, 03:54 PM
How would you Saba students compare the amount of material/difficulty level to a science undergrad from reputable Canadian universities like UBC or UofT? Is there more material but the overall difficulty is less?

Thanks

there is way more materal, way shorter time, and the material are harder in the sense that you have to learn all the detail that you didnt learn in, for example, an undergrad biochem course....

don't even compare saba to UofT undergrad... those ways were a breeze in compare to this.... if I studied this hard during undergrad, I'd get 4.0.

Let's not go off topic!

Idiots
07-24-2010, 06:09 PM
All of my numbers come from statements made by the clinical sciences dean while he was making a presentation in front of over 100 students. I can not provide more accurate data than that. If you believe I misquoted, or if you believe he was misleading us, then that is your choice.

I assure you that Saba does not have an average Step1 score of 200 nor a match rate of under 50%.

baklava
07-24-2010, 06:12 PM
^to the above multiple posts trying to give reasons to my posts...unfortunately its NOT like that.

if a 100 people start at saba and only 45 finish to even apply - well that is absolutely DISMAL! its worse than ross's weeding out rate!

1) i looked at the 2010 residency placements, saw only 11 cdn matches...so i am not sure where the number 21 came from.

im not going to argue with the numbers from someone, since we all know that out of 10 things spoken on saba, one is MAYBE right. we should have tables, and charts. in 2008, there were 16 cdn matches. 2009, there were 13. in 2010, i see 11 - not 23.
and given that saba is 70% cdn...i doubt only 24 people applied for those alleged 21 positions...i can count more than 15 poeple i know who applied and only 3 got in. thats a horrible ratio. but i dont want to discuss that any further.

devildoc, i read your answers...however, you are forgetting when it comes to residency application time, visa status is probably just as important than usmle scores. and as for language problems, us imgs do NOT have language problems. we are talking about US Imgs and Cdn IMGs here only - am restricting my discussion to that. Not the TRUE imgs who havent stepped foot in the country before applying.

read my first post, i copy pasted the match rates for US IMGS and true FMGs....its 47% and 38% respectively. If you allow for carib schools' apparently high match rate, and even give upto a 20% raise...its NOT more than 70%.

the D.O residency training programs are very small, btw. so almost all D.O.s apply to ACGME residencies. hence there are 75% of DOs who actually match in ACGME residencies. you would think that like 94% of us grads matching in ACGME residecies, around the same (>85% of DOs) would match in AOA residencies - but that is NOT happening because we are all competing for the same ACGME residencies.

you are saying that the numbers are obviously different for carib schools from the NRMP. do you have these numbers? how are you coming to this conclusion?
unfortunately, you would need something more concrete to go by as oppose to 'someone said that, so thats why' - people can say whatever, but the important thing is raw data and concrete numbers.

pre matches do infact happen, and that would probably explain the students in saba actually getting many more residencies. however, the new NRMP data is shocking as far as the actual matching for IMG goes. and if you dont pre match, you have to think of what you are up against on match day.

and as for my extrapolation, as someone pointed out. i am extrapolating based on whats given to me, with added lenience for Saba factor...i explained that as above...and no way i can fathom a match rate of 90% of saba. and unfortunately, it doesnt happen in real life either.

and by the way, i heard the number '45' students applying being thrown around - thereby justifying the theory that only the smart cookies make it through.
in my class, which was quite some time ago, 57 students finished their 5th semester shelf from 70 admitted in first semester. i highly doubt that if you are admitting 100 students, only 45 are making through. thats a fail rate of 55%, which not only seems ridiculous, but highly unlikely.

even if the iteration rates have gone up due to more competition, i really doubt that less than 70% of the students are not coming out. what i am trying to say is, the number of residency placements you see on the 2010 list is around 120 or so. however, there is no way that ONLY 45*3 = 135 (45 students from 3 classes) have applied for those positions. its more like 170, 180.

B_W_
07-25-2010, 07:24 AM
Baklava what are you trying to get at? You've made your point based on your assumption of what you believe to be a fair number for Saba given your experience. Unless you have an actual chart and data for the schools in question your argument's as good as theirs.
Just b/c you can't fathom something doesn't make it impossible. While I agree that 45% is an atrocious overall success rate for the basic sciences am I to believe your "assumed" stats vs the ones given to us by the clinical dean last week? And please don't argue that he was fudging the numbers b/c at the moment he's got more credibility than a poster on a forum.

RPhtoMD
07-25-2010, 10:24 AM
B.W. totally aggree with you....what reason does the clinical dean have to fudge the numbers given that were already in debt 5 semesters to SABA now.....The dean doesnt blow sunshine our way and tell us things are gona be easy...contrary to that he always emphasizes that things are gona get harder year after year, but our students have been lucky enough to match at about 90%...will it be like that next year or the year after, who know's! But after giving it all to Saba its good to see the stats. And a 217 step1 average coming of here is not unfathonable given the nature of what your put thru in during your first 20months. Look at the numbers the dean shows of students in the last 12 months scoring above 232 and the correlation to GPA. Why would he waste his time to come down here and speak to us if there's no truth to it --- the school's going to get their tuition cheque regardless! The numbers speak for themselves. If you dont wana believe them--dont. Who cares. But to my current fellow students its a little refreshing to see that if you work hard and percevere then you have a good chance to succeed...As far as the numbers for canada only being 11....the list for 2010 shows 14, but this does not take into account multiple matches at any program....the list only shows the school/program...not the number of students matching...and there were some multiple matches. The school no longer posts names for confidenitality reasons.
So the moral work hard guys, and don't let what some of ********* poster who doesn't even go to this school discourage you..At this point all you can do is have some faith in what the school tells you -- and bust your ***...Anythings possible!
And Baklava...most Saba students will consider they made a better choice coming here than "slumming" as you said in some 3rd world hole -- it just makes us feel better. So take your cheerfull nature and spread it on another group of students...Pick any continent you want.....If you are a current student we can meet over a couple of cold Heinikens to discuss how I think you are a douche....You could likely come up with some reasonable arguement about how I'm the one with the problem...But I've made up my mind...your a douche! No other intelligent academic way to put it.
To the rest of my classmates good luck with your exams.....1 more and then hopefully out of here for good.

RPhtoMD
07-25-2010, 10:25 AM
.................................................. ..................................

seattle
07-25-2010, 01:47 PM
REMINDER:

Folks - please address posts in a professional manner eventhough you may not agree with another's post due to errors, ignorance, whatever the case may be.

Interesting discussion here as I reviewed the recent posts.

awelchnp
07-30-2010, 01:06 PM
1) i looked at the 2010 residency placements, saw only 11 cdn matches...so i am not sure where the number 21 came from. .


The 2010 Match list only shows the location of matches. It does not account for multiple placements in the same program.

bhavitski
08-01-2010, 12:12 AM
So how long do you guys study on a regular day, excluding class time, time spent cramming just before tests, and time on Facebook? I know you might not know the average time spent studying so I'm asking on an individual basis..

sgMD
08-01-2010, 07:50 AM
So how long do you guys study on a regular day, excluding class time, time spent cramming just before tests, and time on Facebook? I know you might not know the average time spent studying so I'm asking on an individual basis..

~10hrs everyday... same thing before the exams... + 7hrs class time.

bhavitski
08-01-2010, 12:21 PM
Whoa, thats more than ten times the amount I study in my undergrad right now!

baklava
08-01-2010, 07:50 PM
Whoa, thats more than ten times the amount I study in my undergrad right now!
its humanly impossible to study for 10 hours a day for a semester after class...you will burn out so fast that you will need epo shots.

i never studied that much. heck i didnt even study for more than 10 hours a day during USMLE step 1. because you need to relax and sleep to RETAIN what you learnt...and for that, you need SLEEP.

and i made it through. and im doing well.

dont listen to every single piece of 'sensationalist advice' on VMD.

use common sense...you really think after coming from class at 3/4, you dont use the restroom, dont eat, and dont relax on your couch for a bit...and pound? LOL...put 10 hours after 4 pm, means you finish at 2 AM.

and then start the next day at 7 again, to shower, eat breakfast, and attend class by 8.

im a resident now, and my days are long...and even I make sure to get at least 6-6.5 hours of sleep a day...

my schedule was come back home by 4...relax, take a nap or sth...refresh, eat food...study the day's material till 11-12...B.S. with my roommates...talk to my family...hit the sack...start the next day.

i did pay attention in class and took notes...it helps tremendously...because when you come back home, you dont have to teach yourself...

weekends, woke up late...reviewed the whole weeks material and stuff i was too lazy to cover during the weekdays...

success in medical school is a combination of LEARNING the basics, then mastering how to memorize tons of useless B.S. two days before the exam [aka short term memory] and doing lots of practise questions.

Kewlwhip
08-01-2010, 09:40 PM
Whoa, thats more than ten times the amount I study in my undergrad right now!

You will study a LOT more here than you do in undergrad. Come prepared for that... now, 10 hours? I personally don't think someone studies 10 hours given all the variables. I would say 5-6 is a good number tho!

baklava
08-01-2010, 11:01 PM
You will study a LOT more here than you do in undergrad. Come prepared for that... now, 10 hours? I personally don't think someone studies 10 hours given all the variables. I would say 5-6 is a good number tho!
as i said, that was sensationalist advice.

prospective students: please be aware of such people/posters, etc. you will find them all around campus, esp. in your first semester...the first day when you are learning basic anatomy terminology, and joints...they are all hardcore about how they memorized grey's anatomy and their father is an orthopedic surgeon and what not.

1) do NOT be psyched out by others.

2) do NOT lose confidence in yourself--> this is the best advice i can give you. be confident in your abilities from the beginning...and trust yourself over anyone else without being arrogant. i would encourage you to develop this habit RIGHT now because you will be expected to be more and more self sufficient as your progress through. imagine yourself at 3 o clock in the morning on call, covering the whole hospital...there is only you. you are the man, the sole person in charge. its YOUR responsibility as to what happens to that patient with chest pain, and you cant afford to freak out, because otherwise you wasted your time attending 4 years of medical school and paying 200K.

Anastomosis
08-02-2010, 12:09 AM
This might be relevant to this thread.

http://www.valuemd.com/st-georges-university-school-medicine/174204-interesting-email-dean-about-match-rates.html

maladdy85
08-05-2010, 03:07 PM
Here is something else to take into consideration with regard to this topic:

There is soon to be more U.S. medical schools (allopathic and D.O.) opening to meet the demand to fill U.S. residency spots. Now, for people starting carib med schools within the next 2 years, the additional american students will have little effect on our chances of matching as the first 6 new schools won't open until Sept 2011, meaning these students will match 2015/16. However, according to the list of developing medical schools I found on wikipedia (and yes, information from wiki MUST be taken with a grain of salt) an additional 10 U.S. med schools will potentially open between 2012-14. Assuming each of these schools accepts an average class of 80 incoming students, that means the 2015 match will have 480 fewer spots (as a result of the first 6 new schools) for FMGs, and 2016-18 will have 1,280 fewer spots.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/education/15medschools.html

Though, this article states that the economy is forcing U.S. med schools to accept fewer incoming students (bonus for caribbean students)

Economy forces some medical schools to shrink classes - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-03-04-medical-schools_N.htm)

So I guess what I am trying to say is get while the getting is good. If you are going to risk it/ do it because it's your only option to be a doc, get on an island sooner rather than later because it is about to get even harder to match. (or just pray that the U.S. economy tanks a little more and forces a reduction in class size for more state med schools (but specify in your prayer that this tank in economy somehow spares the loan companies that service carib schools :p))

maladdy85
08-05-2010, 03:29 PM
And because I'm sure someone will ask, I verified the 6 new schools starting Sept 2011 by their websites and news articles:

1.Florida Atlantic University S.O.M. (MD)
2.Oakland U.S.O.M. (MD)
3.Hofstra U.S.O.M. (MD)
4.Western U.O.H.S. (DO)
5.Lake Erie U.S.O.M. (DO)
6.Virginia C.O.O.M. (DO)

Actually some of them had pretty low admission requirements for entrance (ex: Oakland GPA min 3.0 and MCAT 26 and higher), so maybe those of you looking to apply who meet these requirements should give it a shot.

bhavitski
08-05-2010, 03:52 PM
The thing about these new US medical schools opening up is, I think they're much more like to take away the spots of IMG's applying with absolutely no US clinical experience ie. those applying from China, India and whatnot. The caribbean med schools might not be affected as much. Just a thought though.

B_W_
08-09-2010, 01:27 PM
I do a lot of learning in class (whether its listening to the prof or putting in earplugs and doing notes in the back) so that cuts off a lot of wasted time.
Studying, I spend about 3-4 REAL hrs a day after class and on block weekends about 10 productive hrs a day and maybe 12 ** hours.

seattle
08-11-2010, 11:10 AM
The thing about these new US medical schools opening up is, I think they're much more like to take away the spots of IMG's applying with absolutely no US clinical experience ie. those applying from China, India and whatnot. The caribbean med schools might not be affected as much. Just a thought though.

Just a quick observation on this post; although one may surmise that this to be true, in reality it is not!

I have seen too many exceptions to this that I do not necessarily conclude that we are at a significant advantage over someone from let's say India. Remember, although we do U.S. clinicals, the Resident Program Director will compare us on the Step scores as well as a subjectivity measure; specifically the fact that the individual from India was a stellar candidate to out compete thousands to get a seat in medical school. This latter subjectivity variable can make a difference.

Having said this, I do not deny the advantage of Caribbean students doing U.S. clinicals. But the bottom line is that there are those subjectivity varibables embedded in RD's minds (a stigma that does not seem to go completely away) that does not always give us an enormous advantage over other FMG's.

med32
02-24-2012, 05:21 PM
"So, in my opinion the school is not purposely attempting to fail out any student"
I believe they do. For example,
Anatomy:They put three and half embryology lectures (out of four) in Block 2 (jan 2012) in last two days, it is not a fair game.
Histology:58 students failed histology in block 2(Jan 2012), if they know that their curiculum is that though then they should have thougher admission criteria, and do not look at the students as $$$, then kick them out.

That's doable, but it doesen't mean that school is a good school. There are so many students that start taking SSRI in Saba due to enourmous pressure that school put on the students.
I am a first semester stuedents, I have been ok with the block exams, so far, as I have strong background in Anatomy and Histology, if you planning to come here, doooo prestudy for anatomyyyyy!!!!
It is though but it is doable.

maladdy85
03-03-2012, 06:08 PM
IMO there is not a whole lot that is unfair about this program. It is pay to play, and anyone who did a minimal amount of research before coming here knows that. There is no guarantee on the acceptance letter that you are going to complete the program, and if you did your research and still decided to come here, then you accepted the terms under which this education is offered to you. Like the rest of us, YOU TOOK A RISK in coming to the Caribbean for medical school. Yes, it totally sucks when they throw a whole bunch of material at you the day before block weekend. Get used to it, because this will continue to happen for the rest of your time here. It is also correct that many, MANY students end up repeating classes or failing the program. This is a VERY hard program; a truth (IMO) that is well stressed to incoming students, and widely apparent if you read the forums here. Not everyone is going to make it. Would you rather they hold your hand through the program then 50K later you fail the Step (kiss of death to your career), or that they weed out the people who are less LIKELY to pass (I know in your head you're screaming about the exceptions: so and so went to Saba then failed, now at AUA and rocked the boards, and so on........) before those individuals invest a ton of money into something that they are not cut out for/ready for/ don't really want? If Saba made the admissions criteria tougher, this would not be a Caribbean school. Let's not kid ourselves, looser admissions are why people look at these schools to begin with.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that this school is your ticket into medicine when you could not get there via the conventional routes. Respect that. Instead of bemoaning the fact that the program has really high standards and "it just doesn't seem fair", look at the gift you have been given (a chance no other US/Canadian program would have), suck it up, tune out the madness, and make it happen. Take this big 'ol lemon and make some lemonade.

Pinetrees
03-04-2012, 09:00 PM
Would you rather they hold your hand through the program then 50K later you fail the Step (kiss of death to your career), or that they weed out the people who are less LIKELY to pass (I know in your head you're screaming about the exceptions: so and so went to Saba then failed, now at AUA and rocked the boards, and so on........) before those individuals invest a ton of money into something that they are not cut out for/ready for/ don't really want?

Yes, Saba is a 2nd chance school - yet they really are taking advantage of the situation by playing an unfair game. Multiple exams on one day and the method of intense dumping of material, at times especially before block exams is in no way a standard practiced by US med schools. This is an attempt to weed people out after a non-refundable point. Also, the fact that many do go to other schools and pass the Step 1 obviously negates the earlier argument that these are looser people that shouldn't be hand held thru the program.


suck it up, tune out the madness, and make it happen. Take this big 'ol lemon and make some lemonade.
This is way oversimplifying the reality of this school curriculum. Even U.S. students with whom I have shared the syllabus and pace of the curriculum have said they would struggle in this environment.

benevolo
03-04-2012, 11:29 PM
Also, the fact that many do go to other schools and pass the Step 1 obviously negates the earlier argument that these are looser people that shouldn't be hand held thru the program.

There are also many people who failed and went to other schools, made it all the way through and then failed the Step 1 multiple times. Very few people who make it through Saba fail the Step, and many do extremely well. If you're going to attend a Caribbean school it's better if you get failed out early at a rigorous school like Saba, instead of going to one of these weak schools that take all your money for 5 semesters before you get knocked down by the Step.

Yes, you can have your hand held at some other school and yes you might still pass the step, but making it through those programs is no guarantee you will pass. The failure rate is horrendous at some of these schools. At least you know if you get through Saba's program, you're going to pass, and it's probably going to make you a much better doctor because of how hard you had to study, and how much you had to learn to succeed. And in 2012 you need to be an excellent doc with an excellent score on the step, you can't just transfer to some school like AUA and pass with a mediocre score.



This is way oversimplifying the reality of this school curriculum. Even U.S. students with whom I have shared the syllabus and pace of the curriculum have said they would struggle in this environment.
This is such a commonly regurgitated complaint that has no basis. There's nothing fast paced about the Saba curriculum at least in comparison to a regular medical school. You get 20 months to do what US med students cover in only 16-18 months. It's only fast paced in the sense that you get no summer breaks.

Pinetrees
03-05-2012, 08:13 AM
If you're going to attend a Caribbean school it's better if you get failed out early at a rigorous school like Saba, instead of going to one of these weak schools that take all your money for 5 semesters before you get knocked down by the Step.

I would respectfully disagree. Just are you are correct in that there are people who transfer out of Saba and may fail the Step after getting thru basic sciences at another school...there are plenty of people who are doing just that - transfering to AUA for example and passing the Step on the first attempt. So, it's not that Saba has unbelievable high standards that we should consider this the Harvard of the Caribbean as is being implied by those that make it thru the program. I am not implying that Saba is a bad school in any way. But the method is not suitable for everyone. And again, I do agree there are those that will not make it at any school.


Yes, you can have your hand held at some other school and yes you might still pass the step, but making it through those programs is no guarantee you will pass. The failure rate is horrendous at some of these schools.
Yes, some schools are a sham in the Caribbean, but AUA is not one of them.


And in 2012 you need to be an excellent doc with an excellent score on the step, you can't just transfer to some school like AUA and pass with a mediocre score.
Yes - to an extent I agree. But then again residency match has NEVER been easy, although the trend is getting tougher with more D.O. programs opening up and it is also a trend that foreign candidates from India, China, etc...are scoring over 90% on Step 1 in increasing numbers. so, that makes the match even tougher.



This is such a commonly regurgitated complaint that has no basis. There's nothing fast paced about the Saba curriculum at least in comparison to a regular medical school. You get 20 months to do what US med students cover in only 16-18 months. It's only fast paced in the sense that you get no summer breaks.

Here, I do not necessarily agree. The volume of material covered is on par for the most part with US schools (genetics tends to go overboard to a great extent). However, it is the method of testing (multiple exams on same day) and blocks 3 weeks apart that makes Saba curriculum different than many (not all but most) US med schools. Most schools in the US, the ones I have checked with do not have multiple blocks on 1 day and 3 weeks apart. That's ludicrous as mentioned by US students I have talked wtih. Although I am sure they would pass Saba, all of the ones I talked with admit this would be a very tough curriculum to get thru and they would struggle as well.

seattle
03-05-2012, 09:42 AM
Given the recent posts above by Pinetrees and Benevelo, I would say this - Over the past 15 years Saba has changed quite a bit in terms of the student demographic that is seems to attract.

Now more than ever before, this school is really geared towards those individuals who in my opinion were deserving of getting into a North American Medical School, but for some reason could not. Therefore, now it becomes even more true that any individual whose scores (MCAT and science GPA) are way sub-par to US standards should NOT attempt this particular curriculum. It will be too much of an uphill battle and a waste of time and money. Another school, less rigorous may be a better alternative (AUA is not a bad choice).

The strength of the correlation between a less rigorous school such as AUA (although it is changing now with the 50 state approval) and pass rate on the Step 1 is still a bit vague (to me). I have not come across any respectable regression analysis to find the strength in correlation factors. And then again, correlation does not imply causality in regression analysis. (e.g. one cannot say with certainty that less rigorous programs are a direct indicator of failure on Step 1). The truth is clouded more often than not in that there are those who should not attempt a medical school curriculum at any school regardless of rigor of the program. Hence, the true magnitude of success on Step 1 in a less rigorous program for that sample space consisting of students who transfered to due failure at Saba is very difficult to measure and state with certainty. We simply do not have the variables to say with certainty.

Final point - many state Saba's "high standards" is making them "better physicians". In what way? Knowledge base? long-term clinical applications? I am not so certain of that argument. Yes, it is true some courses may go a bit overboard compared to the coverage on Step 1, and although it is always better to err on the side of more knowledge than the minimum threshold for Step 1, from what I have seen for years it is a bit of a leap to confidently say it is always making "better physicians". There are too many other factors that are involved than just those who can prove they can cram tons of material into their heads for a standardized exam. Saba students are good at that....but better physicians by doing so? I am not convinced of that necessarily. How much of that crammed material are people really retaining as time passes beyond Step 1?

Dr Coconut
03-05-2012, 09:54 AM
Pinetrees - you hit a key point: Saba is not for everyone.

Maladdy85 also hit a very key point: no one should go to a Caribbean school without doing a minimal amount of research into what the program entails and should remember that these are for-profit organizations. Saba's program seems to work for what Saba cares about - step scores, the match and their profit margin (not necessarily in that order, either). Why on earth would they change it? First semester attendance has increased to plateau at what many assume is the island's capacity. Tuition is increasing steadily but still lower than some other Caribbean schools. Sounds like Saba is making their profit and good for them. If someone can't succeed with Saba's model and goes to AUA to achieve a passing mark on the step, the admin's opinion will be "good for them". Saba's next semester will be at or near capacity when it starts again.

benevolo
03-05-2012, 04:22 PM
Here, I do not necessarily agree. The volume of material covered is on par for the most part with US schools (genetics tends to go overboard to a great extent). However, it is the method of testing (multiple exams on same day) and blocks 3 weeks apart that makes Saba curriculum different than many (not all but most) US med schools.

Exams every 3 weeks is much better than having only one or two exams that cover the entire curriculum. Saba also has shelf exams at the end, but your entire grade isn't resting on 1 or 2 exams, and by being tested q 3 weeks it forces you to stay on top of the material and not procrastinate. And that's probably why a lot of people are in the Caribbean - procrastination. Also when you fail one block exam on Saba it kicks you into high gear and forces you to work hard to catch up for the remaining blocks. If you're at a school with only 1 or 2 exams max, a bad failure is irreparable and means you fail the course automatically.



Most schools in the US, the ones I have checked with do not have multiple blocks on 1 day and 3 weeks apart. That's ludicrous as mentioned by US students I have talked wtih. Although I am sure they would pass Saba, all of the ones I talked with admit this would be a very tough curriculum to get thru and they would struggle as well.
I never found multiple exams on the same day a big deal. If you want they could just move the exams into the end of the semester like other schools, but then you don't get those nice 2 weeks off.

seattle
03-05-2012, 09:30 PM
Exams every 3 weeks is much better than having only one or two exams that cover the entire curriculum. If you're at a school with only 1 or 2 exams max, a bad failure is irreparable and means you fail the course automatically.

I am at a large University teaching hospital with an affiliated medical school. This particular US medical school, along with most other US schools that I am familiar with have the same number of block exams per semester as Saba but grossly differ in that they stagger their exams throughout the semester (not on the same day), because they realize it is a bit much at the med school level given the volume that needs to be digested to have multiple exams back to back the same day. Also, a key point of difference is that most US schools I have checked with specifically filter the volume down to key areas in the form of "med notes" for their student (e.g. very specifically tailored study guides). That cuts the guesswork in what you really need to know for the block exams at a US school. At Saba my experience was it was pretty much a large data dump on the students and then go figure it out on your own...whatever to pass the blocks. Yes - it works for about 50 students per semester, but still it is not an ideal way to teach such an intense curriculum; hence as I have said for years Saba is an appropriate place for individuals with great cramming abilities. But the teaching "approach" (in my opinion) was way subpar to most US schools.


I never found multiple exams on the same day a big deal. If you want they could just move the exams into the end of the semester like other schools, but then you don't get those nice 2 weeks off.

It's good that you adjusted to such a fast paced, intense curriculum. As I said above and numerous times before, Saba is the proper place for those who are great crammers - nothing more. It allows those people to get thru the 5 semester data-dump, but I am not convinced that much of that goes into long-term memory beyond Step 1. It is impossible to hold onto all that information as time passes. And although from a theoretical standpoint, one can argue that it is great to know all the details in a genetics course (for example), it is not practically feasible or necessary. I have never had to use those details years later and I can always look it up if needed my colleagues who were US grads also agree when we have these kinds of discussions. In other words (in my opinion) that level of data-dump in some Saba courses is not practically useful but more of a research interest of the individual instructor and it also allows to weed out more students who cannot cram that much material into short-term memory. Now some say that approach makes better physicians as a result? I am not convinced of that and I do not believe anyone in the US is as well - if so, we should present this case to the state medical boards to convince them to consider elevating Saba to a true US med school status eventhough it is offshore - would never happen (even if we for the sake of argument ignore the legality hurdles).

tiger15lily
03-06-2012, 07:33 AM
Every once in a while there is a whining thread posted that thankfully gets locked. The Step 1 is 7 hours worth of multiple exams and Step 2 is 8-9 hours of multiple exams in 1 day. Get over it!

benevolo
03-06-2012, 11:00 AM
Well said TL!

If you can't handle a few exams on one day, you won't survive the steps! It's endurance building.

I know the students at said 'large university hospital' as I did majority of my training there. They're awesome people and we work well together, but to be frank, they were not as strong as Saba students. I remember a few morning rounds playing medical jeopardy, it was Saba students vs them and we cleaned them out every time; it wasn't even close. So obviously our school did something right, even if it was just putting immense pressure on us to work hard and perform well.

Bottom line you guys can all complain all you want and say it doesn't help, but the results speak for themselves.

Pinetrees
03-06-2012, 11:17 AM
I agree with Seattle, as always words of wisdom! Obviously, we may differ on our experiences in clinicals and beyond, but I think this whole "we cleaned out the other students every time" is a load of you know what. I've heard this before and honestly, most Saba grads are average or on par with US students. Very few if any are that stellar and beyond that and I just haven't seen it in years out here. Again, it boils down to opinion and we all have different experiences, but I would err on the side of Seattle. I think we are all proud of enduring Saba and beyond but let's get realistic, we are not Harvard and we not US med grads. On average with them...yes..but let's not exaggerate beyond that. It sounds more like ego at that point and that I think is subliminally what Seattle is saying in his post from what I gather.

benevolo
03-06-2012, 02:52 PM
I agree with Seattle, as always words of wisdom! Obviously, we may differ on our experiences in clinicals and beyond, but I think this whole "we cleaned out the other students every time" is a load of you know what.
Seeming this is first-hand information coming directly from me, then you know where you can go if you're calling me a liar. And I used that as an example because it's an objective way to show that we were stronger students rather than comparing performance on the wards.

And with respect to staggering exams throughout several days, THAT is a system for who just cram material and regurgitate it. If you have one exam a day, that gives you the time to cram for each one individually every single day, versus 3 exams on one day forces you to master the material and know it well. So Saba's system is actually better for preventing the type of individual who is only capable of passing an exam by cramming material the night before and regurgitating it.

One of the most important things you can learn is to take responsibility for your own results and stop blaming others for your inadequacies.

Pinetrees
03-06-2012, 03:15 PM
Seeming this is first-hand information coming directly from me, then you know where you can go if you're calling me a liar. And I used that as an example because it's an objective way to show that we were stronger students rather than comparing performance on the wards.

First of all, I am not calling you a liar since you took such an offense to my previous post. My point is this - I have heard too many times over the years on these forums of how much better Saba grads are than others. So, in that way your post was not unique. And I am saying what you experienced may be real, but it is NOT the norm across the system. I have a very hard time believing that this is the case everywhere or even close to it, and I have been around for a long time out here (I am not a student or a resident anymore). Let's keep things in perspective if most Saba grads are that good, they wouldn't have had to come down to the Caribbean in the first place. period! I am not diminishing your personal experience nor the school - but let's keep this in proper perspective. What you describe are isolated incidences - maybe real to you as you experienced it but nevertheless a far cry from being the norm across the system.


And with respect to staggering exams throughout several days, THAT is a system for who just cram material and regurgitate it.
If Saba's system is so unique and well planned more U.S. schools would actually adapt to it (not the other way around...meaning Saba states it's curriculum is modeled after the finest US institutions). I would err on the side of what U.S schools are doing - most faculty at Saba (and I know because they told me this) would have loved the oppotunity to teach as a faculty at a US med school. They are there for a reason (think about it).


One of the most important things you can learn is to take responsibility for your own results and stop blaming others for your inadequacies.

No one on here in recent posts at least has any ax to grind with Saba. We are all way past residency at this stage of our lives. Nevertheless wisdom does come with age as the old addage goes, and I still stand by my position that Saba could improve in many ways. But it is afterall a business (maximize intake, minimize output). The focus is not on excellence in educational methods (note the word methods) - meaning the curriculum coverage may be on par with most US schools, but the method of delivery is far less than ideal. And this is exactly what Seattle has been saying for years on these forums. Again, the faculty in schools in the Caribbean are there for a reason. No one would leave Duke University with many publications to go island hopping from one school to another. Let's get real - think about that for a while.

seattle
03-07-2012, 12:36 PM
Benevelo - I am not denying what has been your experience.

But common sense tells me that these are isolated incidences and definitely not the norm in Saba grad performance across the system. To imply the latter (that most Saba grads are so well versed on scientific details that they surpass other Caribbean grads and especially US grads) is a huge stretch. A more realistic observation would be that most Saba grads are on par with US grads and other better Caribbean programs. I am not confident to go much beyond that point. There may be some outlier points that greatly surpass their US counterparts in clinicals and beyond but again these I would argue are isolated cases.

Saba is a good school, whose method of delivery may not suit everyone's taste. But the faculty and students that pass thru the system down there are again - Caribbean. I am not implying sub-standard (at least with the students), but I am not going to say all are going to exceed expectations post Step 1. Finally, it does take a certain type of person to want to go to the Caribbean to teach. More than likely the foreign instructors use it as a stepping stone to hopefully land a residency spot in the U.S. The American instructors are there for a reason - and it is almost never good. As an example I gave earlier - no one would voluntarily choose to leave Duke University given a position and research publications etc. and come down to the Caribbean indefinitely. There is a reason for that!

NUHS-AUC
03-07-2012, 02:01 PM
Hello,

Main thing to remember is that it is NOT only USMLE scores, that will land you residency, depends on your specialty in mind, choose the right electives, get great LORs, and work on a solid CV, and make sure your dean's letter reflects your good performance in medical school, and of course score well on your USMLE 1, 2CK on your first attempt.




I'm a third year student trying to calculate the dangers of coming to Saba. Lets say for arguement's sake that after coming to Saba you pass everything and get a score of 80 on the Step 1. How likely are you to get ANY residency in the States as a Canadian student (I'm not picky at all)? What is the match percentage of all Saba students that actually make it this far and pass the Step 1 on their first try?

I'm trying to gauge what risks there are even after passing everything and doing all you can to get good scores ie. what is out of your hands.

Thanks a lot

benevolo
03-07-2012, 05:37 PM
There's many sketchy reasons why profs teach at Saba - being bad teachers is not one of them. Just because Saba doesn't do something the way a US school does it doesn't mean they're doing it wrong. Lots of people whining about things that are irrelevant.

What we can agree on is that Saba is cutthroat and weeds out all the weak students. That's exactly why they're good at what they do. Go hard or go home. If you can't survive at Saba then you're unlikely to perform high enough to get a match in today's climate by attending a lesser caribbean school. IMGs are soon going to be a thing of the past. 1:1 US med students to residency positions as of 2016.

benevolo
03-07-2012, 05:44 PM
For clarification I'm not saying the profs at Saba are excellent (although some of them are) - I'm just saying they didn't come to Saba because they were bad profs. And the one who came from Duke is overall a very good prof, IMO.

If you cant make it at Saba, get your grades up and go get your mediocre step scores at a US MD or DO school where it doesn't matter.

seattle
03-08-2012, 09:38 AM
For clarification I'm not saying the profs at Saba are excellent (although some of them are) - I'm just saying they didn't come to Saba because they were bad profs. And the one who came from Duke is overall a very good prof, IMO.

OK, I agree here. I should have been more specific. Gross Anatomy was a nightmare the way it was approached. It was a large data dump in a regional approach rather than systemic. It was extremely difficult to filter thru all the information and connect the dots. Very different than the US med school I am at now. The lectures are extremely organized thru "med notes" and the approach is systemic, not regional. Most all the Gross Anatomy professors are all gone now from what I know.


If you cant make it at Saba, get your grades up and go get your mediocre step scores at a US MD or DO school where it doesn't matter.

I absolutely agree with you on this! I think if you're really, really good coming in as an IMG and especially the Caribbean THEN someone may notice, but overall the system is preferential towards US grads (meaning they can get away with a lot less work and don't need to impress nearly as much and still land better residencies).

NUHS-AUC
03-08-2012, 09:50 AM
I don't know about 2016, but, I believe that in 10 years, only the top 5 offshore schools will survive, as IMGs from other schools that are not properly trained will not match due to intense competition from US schools, in addition to DO programs, that are have at least doubled in enrollment in the past 5 years, and 99% of Osteopathic students are taking both the COMLEX and the USMLEs, competing against IMGs...


. IMGs are soon going to be a thing of the past. 1:1 US med students to residency positions as of 2016.

raptors
03-08-2012, 10:30 AM
Lots of US prematches this year and anticipate a good outcome on March 16th.

This year's Canadian crop is pretty darn good. Some very good matches, but I'll wait until the official list goes out.

The students of Saba are doing a great job.

benevolo
03-08-2012, 09:16 PM
I don't know about 2016, but, I believe that in 10 years, only the top 5 offshore schools will survive, as IMGs from other schools that are not properly trained will not match due to intense competition from US schools, in addition to DO programs, that are have at least doubled in enrollment in the past 5 years, and 99% of Osteopathic students are taking both the COMLEX and the USMLEs, competing against IMGs...

There were 23,421 available first-year positions in the 2011 Match, for which 16,559 senior US students applied (a ratio of 1.41:1).

In 2011 there was a combined total of24,093 first-year medical students (MD+DO) enrolled in the US. With the current number of first-year positions, that gives a 2015 match ratio of 0.97:1.

Unless they significantly expand the number of residency spots, it's already going to be 1:1 by 2015. 2014 won't be much better. I highly doubt any caribbean schools will survive this at all. It doesn't matter if you are at a 'top 5' school, only the few stellar students at these schools will get picked over a US graduate.

thxleave
03-08-2012, 09:35 PM
I heard that if we don't get bottle water, canned food, and use less electronics; We won't survive Y2K. I read that the Mayan's calendar end at 2012. People predicted world was going to end during Cold War. We should all stop continuing life because of fear and wild speculations. Fact is enrollment for US MD and DO is increasing. Opinion is the AMOUNT it'll affect Caribbean grad. I love how everybody can see the future for residency shortages. If they could see the future they would get Lotto numbers and not go to med school. Information is great, but fear mongering isn't. Not disagreeing it'll get tougher, but how tough? Is something NO one KNOWS.

seattle
03-09-2012, 07:54 AM
We should all stop continuing life because of fear and wild speculations. Fact is enrollment for US MD and DO is increasing. Opinion is the AMOUNT it'll affect Caribbean grad. I love how everybody can see the future for residency shortages. Not disagreeing it'll get tougher, but how tough? Is something NO one KNOWS.

Although we cannot predict with certainty, the trends are what one should look at when guaging the risk versus rewards, and in so the numbers are saying that competition will increase significantly. Then, will top 5 schools survive (SGU, AUC, Ross, Saba, AUA)? Probably so, because the underlying human nature is one of hope so the interest level will always remain.

The schools that would be affected the most out of the Big 5 would be AUA and Ross. Why? Because from a probabilistic standpoint those schools that accept huge incoming classes in the hundreds are most likely going to see a reduction in applications to a certain degree. However, I doubt it would shut them down. Saba on the other hand is a relatively small school in the Big 5. I do not think a reduction from 110 students to maybe 90 or so a semester would adversely affect the school. There will remain for the foreseable future a large Canadian demand for Saba, which is really where they get most of their money (it's not the US applicants anymore and has been this way for about 10 years).

And although we cannot predict exact numbers, what would make the match even tougher is that more and more qualified (in terms of Step scores) IMG's from Asia are applying. This will dilute the match chances even further.

benevolo
03-09-2012, 02:14 PM
I heard that if we don't get bottle water, canned food, and use less electronics; We won't survive Y2K. I read that the Mayan's calendar end at 2012. People predicted world was going to end during Cold War. We should all stop continuing life because of fear and wild speculations. Fact is enrollment for US MD and DO is increasing. Opinion is the AMOUNT it'll affect Caribbean grad. I love how everybody can see the future for residency shortages. If they could see the future they would get Lotto numbers and not go to med school. Information is great, but fear mongering isn't. Not disagreeing it'll get tougher, but how tough? Is something NO one KNOWS.
You're totally right, when the ratio reaches 1:1 it's going to be the US students who aren't going to match; the Caribbean students will be fine. Any other opinions are fear mongering and akin to Y2K or Mayan apocalypses. :rolleyes:

benevolo
03-09-2012, 02:17 PM
Seattle makes a good point though...lots of Canadians will still come to Saba hoping for that coveted Canadian match. At least in Canada, IMGs have dedicated residency spots, so expansion of seats has no effect on their chances. The bad thing for them is that the match rate for Canadian IMGs is about 30% due to the sheer number of Canadians who go to offshore medical schools to compete for those IMG slots.

Mourning Cloak
03-09-2012, 04:23 PM
Seattle makes a good point though...lots of Canadians will still come to Saba hoping for that coveted Canadian match. At least in Canada, IMGs have dedicated residency spots, so expansion of seats has no effect on their chances. The bad thing for them is that the match rate for Canadian IMGs is about 30% due to the sheer number of Canadians who go to offshore medical schools to compete for those IMG slots.

It's about 20%, actually.

http://carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/38_Summary%20of%20Match%20Results_en.pdf

thxleave
03-09-2012, 04:46 PM
You're totally right, when the ratio reaches 1:1 it's going to be the US students who aren't going to match; the Caribbean students will be fine. Any other opinions are fear mongering and akin to Y2K or Mayan apocalypses. :rolleyes:

The thing is....this is all hindsight. Before the events occurred, people panicked and argued for these apocalypses. Look at 1999 before Y2K, there was a lot of "factual" basis on the Y2k crisis. This isn't even recent, look at the Malthusian trap, where people in the past believed we were going to die out due to overpopulation in the 1800's. It's 2012 and we still have a lot of land left, and technological progress that increase the efficiency of farming. I'm not saying it'll get easier or stay the same, I am in agreement more with Seattle about the residency issue. I'm betting the US government don't want the TOP 3 Caribbean schools to fail, because think about all the money they are going to lose with the Stafford student loans that go into default. Also, all this assumption is based on residency not increasing at a faster pace, and schools to open at the same pace. It's 2012 and a lot of the schools predicted to be opened now has been delayed another year or two due to economic times. There is now a lot of political effort to increase primary care residency. In business sense, I don't think Devry University is going to let their recent medical school purchases fail, I'm pretty sure CM don't want that 100M contract with HHC hospitals to go to waste also. Like I said I don't disagree with residency being more competitive, but you are definitely exaggerating the CERTAINTY of it being impossible to get a residency.

benevolo
03-09-2012, 10:28 PM
The thing is....this is all hindsight. Before the events occurred, people panicked and argued for these apocalypses. Look at 1999 before Y2K, there was a lot of "factual" basis on the Y2k crisis. This isn't even recent, look at the Malthusian trap, where people in the past believed we were going to die out due to overpopulation in the 1800's. It's 2012 and we still have a lot of land left, and technological progress that increase the efficiency of farming. I'm not saying it'll get easier or stay the same, I am in agreement more with Seattle about the residency issue. I'm betting the US government don't want the TOP 3 Caribbean schools to fail, because think about all the money they are going to lose with the Stafford student loans that go into default. Also, all this assumption is based on residency not increasing at a faster pace, and schools to open at the same pace. It's 2012 and a lot of the schools predicted to be opened now has been delayed another year or two due to economic times. There is now a lot of political effort to increase primary care residency. In business sense, I don't think Devry University is going to let their recent medical school purchases fail, I'm pretty sure CM don't want that 100M contract with HHC hospitals to go to waste also. Like I said I don't disagree with residency being more competitive, but you are definitely exaggerating the CERTAINTY of it being impossible to get a residency.
Which schools have delayed opening? Even without these alleged schools, the US matriculating class this year was greater than the residency spots they had for 2011. It's beyond the control of Devry or med schools and hospitals in the US to fight this because it's a pure issue of numbers. I never said this was a sure thing either, because you're right: The US might expand residencies to accommodate the extra X million people who are now insured in the country.

The bad part is that we're not worrying about things changing...they HAVE changed already. New students have to hope that they will change back by the US adding more residency spots. This is why it's different than some doomsday theory because the future climate is already proven and we're only hoping that it gets better. I think we can agree that if the ratio remains the way it is right now, only the very top Caribbean students or those who get lucky will match over a US student.

axiomofchoice
03-09-2012, 10:33 PM
I also think its becoming fairly likely that the primary care shortage will be solved with extenders (NPs, PAs) before medicare shells out $ for major residency additions.

thxleave
03-10-2012, 12:40 AM
New schools delayed: LCME: Overview: Accreditation and the LCME (http://www.lcme.org/newschoolprocess.htm)
List includes CMU and UCR which is opening a year or two late. If you Google the topic, a lot of schools pop up. In fact here's article that say 25% of LCME schools delayed opening. – 25 percent of developing medical colleges delay submitting their LCME application | Central Michigan Life (http://www.cm-life.com/2011/04/13/25-percent-of-developing-medical-colleges-delay-submitting-their-lcme-application/)
So they aren't alleged schools being delayed.

Your calculations is including DO students which many go through their own AOA match. As for DO students competing against Caribbean MD in NRMP, that's a different topic. Some argue different states and hospital have different preferences. Which in this thread you got bashed for claiming DO gets match in NRMP easier compared to Caribbean MD: http://www.valuemd.com/st-georges-university-school-medicine/200420-caribbean-good-backup-6.html#post1317060

As I said, you can't see the future, things change easily. There are residency expansion plans already in progress, and there is a lot of political pressure that is pushing for this expansion. New residencies being created, yeah primary care, but they are still residency: HHS awards $320 million to expand primary care workforce (http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2010pres/09/20100927e.html)

Corporations lobby in order to serve their own interest, I don't see how it's out of Devry's control, along with med schools. Guess how DO schools get recognition as MD equivalent? Tons of money thrown at politicians and lawyers. It's important to be aware of this issue, and make a decision of going to Caribbean medical schools in this political environment. Yet, to throw out quotes saying only very top Caribbean students will ever match is way too assertive for anyone to say. Only fact is that it'll get tougher for IMG to match in the future, but the extent whether it is the very top student (USMLE 220+) or mediocre student (200-220, almost average but not poor) suffering is hard to discern. Even with the situation as it is right now.

subconscious
04-15-2012, 03:32 PM
Is anyone aware of the NAC OCSE examination provided by CEHPEA for IMGs wanting to practice in Ontario? The site seems to encourage writing it, but does not mandate it for gaining a residency. I wanted to know if anyone know's someone who has gained a residency in Canada and their position as to writing this. It does cost $2k and doesn't have any data proving its value so I'm skeptical of considering it. Also, if you do recommend it, when would you suggest to write it?

subconscious
04-20-2012, 05:30 PM
remove since it was the same post as above

raptors
04-20-2012, 06:23 PM
Is anyone aware of the NAC OCSE examination provided by CEHPEA for IMGs wanting to practice in Ontario? The site seems to encourage writing it, but does not mandate it for gaining a residency. I wanted to know if anyone know's someone who has gained a residency in Canada and their position as to writing this. It does cost $2k and doesn't have any data proving its value so I'm skeptical of considering it. Also, if you do recommend it, when would you suggest to write it?

You don'\t have to write it if you're a new grad (w/i two years from graduating). You need to write the MCCEE. However, if you do bad on the MCCEE the NAC OSCE will help.

Alaska1
04-26-2019, 06:20 AM
where are the saba stats?

do you have a link or a pdf, which shows what % is matching?

if not, then you cant really say that 80-90% match based on what someone told you.

On the world directory of medical schools website (go to the website, click on find programs then SABA, then click on program details), it says that saba graduated 214 students in 2018. On the 2018 match list from saba's website, there are 182 residency placements. So going off of that, 182/214= 85% match rate. Now one thing is that, we don't know how many of the 182 students are from the 214 that graduated in 2018. One thing that I know though, is that if you didn't match your first year, then directors don't even want to look at your file in subsequent years. This is all hearsay though, I don't have any stats for those who matched in subsequent years.

Alaska1
04-26-2019, 04:21 PM
Type "Charting Outcomes in the Match International Medical Graduates 2014" and on that document, go to chart 15 "IMG by country of school" and you will see that SABA has 45 US IMGS and 68 NON US IMGS that matched.

So the official rate worked out is 45+33+29+68= 175 that applied and 113 that matched so 113/175= 64.57%

buenavides1
04-28-2019, 01:40 AM
The information is not up to date better check online for further info.

Leighton20
08-27-2019, 03:08 AM
But what do you mean by a score of 80? You mean 80th percentile?







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