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justinwhite
04-27-2010, 10:21 AM
Hi,

This is less a technical question than a plea for advice. I'm a Canadian university graduate with a honors degree in English and a good GPA. I've demonstrated an aptitude for sciences in High School and University, but I don't have enough premedical coursework to apply for a 4 year postgraduate program. I can either go back to school in Canada for a year to pick up these requirements, or consider an undergraduate entry program. Regardless of where I go to school, I would like to end up working in either Canada, New Zealand, or Australia.

So for those of you who are enrolled in or have graduated from a 6 year medical program - did you begin after high school or after another degree? Would you recommend undergraduate entry medical programs? All things considered, is the cost higher or the requirements more difficult for those who enter a 6 year program?

I'm particularly interested in the University of Auckland, if anyone has been there.

Thanks,

Justin White

redshifteffect
04-28-2010, 05:58 AM
Hi,

This is less a technical question than a plea for advice. I'm a Canadian university graduate with a honors degree in English and a good GPA. I've demonstrated an aptitude for sciences in High School and University, but I don't have enough premedical coursework to apply for a 4 year postgraduate program. I can either go back to school in Canada for a year to pick up these requirements, or consider an undergraduate entry program. Regardless of where I go to school, I would like to end up working in either Canada, New Zealand, or Australia.

So for those of you who are enrolled in or have graduated from a 6 year medical program - did you begin after high school or after another degree? Would you recommend undergraduate entry medical programs? All things considered, is the cost higher or the requirements more difficult for those who enter a 6 year program?

I'm particularly interested in the University of Auckland, if anyone has been there.

Thanks,

Justin White

I did a 6 year program in what is now a 5 year school and did it straight out of highschool. A lot of people told me it was the wrong thing to go straight here and to stick it out in Canada...those same people are now here, and I'm training them.

But those were different times. Things were a lot more black and white and I at least had the guarantee of a job without too much work which is why I picked Australia over Ireland. If you do decide to come you should know that you might not get a job here, and might have to try New Zealand (where there aren't a lot of local graduates), but that Australian training is considered equal to New Zealand training so even if you study here you can still work relatively easily there.

Now why would I recommend a 5/6 year undergrad course (btw there are quite a few 5 year undergrad programs so I'd suggest looking at them before 6 year ones) for you? Well you didn't do a science degree so I'm guessing your preclinical sciences will be weaker then others in a 4 year grad course. If you decide to take the USMLE you will get 1 shot to get a good score so the more preclinical knowledge you have the better (for step 1). Aussie grad schools have a reputation for leaving out a lot of assumed knowledge which is very important for the USMLE and thus people have to put in a lot more work to study for it. With a 5 year course you'll get much more preclinical sciences then you could in a 4 year course.

If your heart is to stay in Canada then I suggest that you take the extra year and try your hardest to get into a Canadian school - because ultimately if you end up overseas there is a very real possibility you might not be able to go back.

My other suggestion is if you have a degree why not apply for permanent residency in Australia or New Zealand? Should you get this you can get local tuition rates which are about 6000-8000 a year...much cheaper then any Canadian medical school. You would also be guaranteed a job in either country.

If you can complete your training in Australia it will also be much easier for you to return to Canada should you choose to do so.

justinwhite
04-29-2010, 12:45 PM
Thanks for the great reply!


My other suggestion is if you have a degree why not apply for permanent residency in Australia or New Zealand? Should you get this you can get local tuition rates which are about 6000-8000 a year...much cheaper then any Canadian medical school. You would also be guaranteed a job in either country.

This is some really fascinating information. I'm looking into whether I am eligible. If you have any information on this, or if you know anyone who has gone this route, please let me know!

Thanks,

Justin White

Molecule of Life
04-29-2010, 02:25 PM
If you've got the money, I would recommend Ireland over Australia. From what I hear on these forums, it's a bit harder to get back from Australia. However, foreign students studying in Ireland almost never land jobs in Ireland, most just come back to Canada/USA. I think you would be set to go for the 6/5 year track. You should also consider the MCAT/GAMSAT and given your lack of science education, you will need to work that much harder to learn the material for these tests. However, 6/5 year programs are generally easier to get into, but do your research if they require these tests.

Your best bet is obviously to go to a Canadian school. However, when one sees what admissions are like up here, Canadian schools prove to be the hardest to get into in the entire world simply because there are so few of them and so many applicants (admission is about 1:25 ratio). Excellent applicants who would otherwise become amazing doctors get rejected every year. Ask yourself if you stayed for another year to pick up the requirements, how would you make your application unique and amazing to get in, and also ask yourself what would you do if you did all that work to get rejected and lose a year (ie. then choose the 6/5 year track?). If you want, try to look up some american schools to go to...you would need an MCAT.

Personally, if I had to choose, I would jump right into the 6/5 year track. That way, you pick up sciences early on at a manageable pace, giving you time to become the best possible doctor that you can be.

redshifteffect
04-29-2010, 10:19 PM
If you've got the money, I would recommend Ireland over Australia. From what I hear on these forums, it's a bit harder to get back from Australia.

Actually it depends on what method of "getting back" you are talking about. All Australian specialist training programs (including as of about 9 months ago General Practice) are now recognised in Canada. You can check the RCPSC "jurisdiction approved areas" and the CFPC website to check what I'm saying. So it really does matter if you are able to land a job in those countries or not, because by far the safest route to "return" is still to do a residency in a country that is recognised by the relevant specialist college in Canada. Attempting to return by matching into CaRMs is still very difficult and by no means a guarantee regardless of where you go. At this stage you'll note that the Irish GP training program is not on the approved list of the CFPC so even if you did get a job in Ireland and completed your GP training there you would not be able to return to a province like Ontario that required you to be a member of the CFPC to have full practice rights.

That was why I picked Australia over Ireland, and I haven't regretted my decision. My only warning would be to someone considering the same options is that since Australia will have a lot less job opportunities then it once had, New Zealand may be a more feasible choice.

redshifteffect
04-29-2010, 10:25 PM
Thanks for the great reply!



This is some really fascinating information. I'm looking into whether I am eligible. If you have any information on this, or if you know anyone who has gone this route, please let me know!

Thanks,

Justin White

Yes I know several people that have gone down this route. A few Caveats to keep in mind:

- If you apply to graduate schools as a PR in Oz you will need the GAMSAT
- If you apply to undergrad schools as a PR in Oz you will need the UMAT
- as a PR you will not be eligible for HECS-HELP this is where the government pays your tuition on your behalf, and is only repaid by you indexed to inflation with no interest, if you continue to remain in Oz and/or if you make more then 50k a year. You will be eligible for "local" student fees should you secure a CSP place (6000-8000/year). The only way to qualify for HECS-HELP is to gain citizenship
- PR for entry to either country is based on a points system. Google skilled migration and CSL and consult a migration agent as any money you spend on this route will pay you back a thousand times in saved tuition!

This info should get you started:
Applying for Permenant Residency in Australia and the Critical Skills List | Medicine in Australia (http://www.medinoz.com/2010/04/12/applying-for-permenant-residency-australia-critical-skills-list/)

justinwhite
04-30-2010, 09:53 AM
Thanks so much for this information! I've been through immigration websites for both Oz and New Zealand. I think I should specify some things about my scenario.

- I am not looking specifically to return to Canada in the future. I think it is more likely that I would stay to practice. One reason I'm looking to leave Canada is because it is so frigid here and Ireland is not much better, so it's out for me. New Zealand is my first choice.

- I am a university graduate, but I have a bachelor of Arts in English. I don't exactly have any skills that are needed in either country, and so I worry that although my application might meet the minimum eligibility requirements for permanent residency it won't stand out in any way. Would you suggest that I look for a job offer in Oz or New Zealand and use that to get a permanent residency before applying to a university? i.e., should I plan to get myself over there and get permanent residency before I apply in order to avoid being pegged as an international student? I noticed that some universities specifically mention that if a student becomes a permanent resident during their studies they must continue to pay international student fees.

Location-wise, isn't there a bit of a catch-22? I'd love to go the University of Auckland, but if my application isn't accepted and I've already moved to Auckland, where is there go? Another move to Australia.

I was hoping to find a way to work this out for the February 2011 intake, but if I need to work out permanent residency first than I might be planning for 2012. Nevertheless, financially it would be the way to go. I'm going to contact a migration agent, but please let me know if I've got this completely mixed up.

redshifteffect
04-30-2010, 10:42 AM
Thanks so much for this information! I've been through immigration websites for both Oz and New Zealand. I think I should specify some things about my scenario.

- I am not looking specifically to return to Canada in the future. I think it is more likely that I would stay to practice. One reason I'm looking to leave Canada is because it is so frigid here and Ireland is not much better, so it's out for me. New Zealand is my first choice.

- I am a university graduate, but I have a bachelor of Arts in English. I don't exactly have any skills that are needed in either country, and so I worry that although my application might meet the minimum eligibility requirements for permanent residency it won't stand out in any way. Would you suggest that I look for a job offer in Oz or New Zealand and use that to get a permanent residency before applying to a university? i.e., should I plan to get myself over there and get permanent residency before I apply in order to avoid being pegged as an international student? I noticed that some universities specifically mention that if a student becomes a permanent resident during their studies they must continue to pay international student fees.

Location-wise, isn't there a bit of a catch-22? I'd love to go the University of Auckland, but if my application isn't accepted and I've already moved to Auckland, where is there go? Another move to Australia.

I was hoping to find a way to work this out for the February 2011 intake, but if I need to work out permanent residency first than I might be planning for 2012. Nevertheless, financially it would be the way to go. I'm going to contact a migration agent, but please let me know if I've got this completely mixed up.

- Look I've been here a long time, and met up with lots of Canadians, one thing most of them share in common is "homesickness" and this takes over all their logical reasoning ability. I've seen plenty of people throw away good jobs only to return to Canada and remain unemployed...so before you make any life changing decisions make sure that you can handle living overseas potentially permenantly. I'm not trying to be patronising, just pointing out my experiences.

- I'm not a migration agent, so take this with a grain of salt, but from my experience with applying for PR in Australia as long as you can find a job that your degree fits under, and you make the minimum points you can get the PR. Some professions require that you have to have worked for the previous 12 months of the last 24 months prior to applying. I've known people who've worked in an unrelated field, yet this was counted...but that's beyond the scope of this post.

- Your application does not need to "stand out". You will simply need to get the required points. If you can't find an applicable (to your degree) profession listed on the CSL in the link I posted above then your application will be delayed. With a profession on the CSL it is highly possible for you to get your PR even with offshore application prior to the end of this year.

- Finding work may not be strictly necessary, but it really depends on your specific situation and from what I've read NZ is much easier to get a PR in then Australia, but look through both and see which one is easier for your situation.

- You could also apply for state sponsorship in Oz where each state sponsors a specific list of jobs, and the advantage of this is that the points requirements are a lot less. However with the introduction of the CSL, CSL candidates are given first priority regardless of who is doing the sponsorship.

- You can apply offshore and do not have to move anywhere.

- Some schools will allow you to switch over to a CSP spot if you do gain PR while in school, however not all of them do. You must do some careful research to find out which ones do. Hint: it's usually ones with a percentage of their CSP students failing, and therefore new CSP spots opening up.

- If this was me and if my BA didn't offer me a profession listed on the CSL then I'd find a job on the CSL that required the least amount of time to get a certification in (say a year) and just do that this year (in Canada), rather then wasting my time with upgrading my university qualifications in Canada. At least that way you are virtually guaranteed a PR.

redshifteffect
05-05-2010, 05:10 PM
However, 6/5 year programs are generally easier to get into, but do your research if they require these tests.


I do not believe that this is true for Australia. 5/6 year programs are much more competitive then the 4 year graduate entries for both locals and internationals.

For locals this is the best way to do medicine, and only the top percentage out of high school get in. Few people in Australia choose to go the 4 year route, and the ones that do most likely do so because they didn't have high enough marks to do it straight out of highschool.

As for internationals you are competing against Asians who aren't coming to Australia because they weren't good enough to get into their home countries. For them this is a prestigious way to either return to their home country, or a ticket to stay in Oz. So they are usually much stronger academically then the North Americans in the 4 year programs (many of whom simply did not have the academic requirements to gain admission in their home country).







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