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TechnionStudentHaifa
03-29-2010, 06:47 PM
technion TeAMS program is not a good decision especially if passing up an American MD program. (This was my last resort and I'm trying to make the best of it) I hope that this thread will not be shut down just for voicing this opinion as the other threads have been.

student2
03-30-2010, 10:45 AM
That's kind of stating the obvious. Most reasonably intelligent people don't pursue an offshore medical education unless they aren't in a position to make such a choice. Of course, there are people who chose to come to offshore programs such as this one (TeAMS) if they want to be in Israel, make aliyah (immigrate to Israel), etc.

Without sounding like a broken record, I can't honestly come up with a single reason for which I would recommend this program to someone that is applying to medical school. Unfortunately, I can come up with far too many reasons against.

TEAMS
03-30-2010, 12:48 PM
That's kind of stating the obvious. Most reasonably intelligent people don't pursue an offshore medical education unless they aren't in a position to make such a choice. Of course, there are people who chose to come to offshore programs such as this one (TeAMS) if they want to be in Israel, make aliyah (immigrate to Israel), etc.

Without sounding like a broken record, I can't honestly come up with a single reason for which I would recommend this program to someone that is applying to medical school. Unfortunately, I can come up with far too many reasons against.

I agree, and even in those situations (they want to practice in Israel), other pathways would be strongly advised before this.

rofeh26
03-31-2010, 04:50 AM
As a current 3rd year in the Technion American Program, I can identify with the frustrations of the other students posting here, but I respectfully disagree that they are problems unique to the Technion. While there certainly have been some kinks in the first year or two of the program, I feel that these issues are being resolved by the administration, and that the strengths of the program speak for themselves.

First and foremost, the Technion offers exposure to research of the highest caliber. We have a required thesis---a fact that turns some people off to the program---so if research is not on your radar, you might want to reconsider. But the opportunity to work in labs on the forefront of stem cell research, pharmaceutical development, clinical research and medical robotics (not on our campus, but on the main campus) should be a huge plus for anyone interested in a research medical career. And that is outside the MD/PhD option.

The price is also a draw---$25,000 a year is about half as much a most private medical schools in the states, and the cost of living is much cheaper here, too. Haifa should also be a draw---living by the Mediterranean has been great, and the city is a haven of diversity and acceptance in a region known for...the opposite.

Nearing the end of my 3rd year of clinical rotations, I can honestly say the teaching this year has been terrific. The attending doctors and even the heads of departments have spent lots of time with us, teaching in a direct and personal way that I understand few students in America are privileged to receive. Also, the diverse hospital populations in the North of Israel offer an exposure to a wide range of problems that, while unfortunate for the patients, offer clinical experiences I will not soon forget.

Again---the program has some serious drawbacks. The pre-clinical schedule is disorganized at best, and is more focused on teaching whatever the lecturer's personal field of research is than on the general topics necessary for the Boards. However, having spoken to friends of mine at upper-tier schools in the States, they claimed to have the same problem. In the end, most pre-clinical studying at any school is up to the student, only more so at the Technion.

On top of that, the administration is still adjusting to the transformation of the program from a handful of students to 30+ per year, and is thus often found ill-prepared for the demands of the students. This is on top of the difference in administrative style that is unique to Israel. There is no doubt about it---the program does not have the huge staff resources of most American med schools. From filing paperwork for the Boards, to finding rotations in American hospitals your 4th year---you will need to find help doing this on your own. It's not easy, and I would not recommend this program to anyone without a strong independent streak.

All told, it's been a difficult 2.5 years here, but I feel that I am being well prepared for a career in medicine, and I would recommend the program to any applicant with a strong sense of independence, a curiosity for research, and the desire for exposure to medicine here for whatever reason.

Any interested in talking on the program should feel free to contact me through my profile here on ValueMD (though give me a bit of time for response....I *am* in my third year...)

Spencer_Blackwell
03-31-2010, 07:06 AM
As a current 3rd year While there certainly have been some kinks in the first year or two of the program, I feel that these issues are being resolved by the administration

you mean the kinks that have existed for 4 years and have not yet been addressed?


First and foremost, the Technion offers exposure to research of the highest caliber. We have a required thesis---a fact that turns some people off to the program---so if research is not on your radar, you might want to reconsider. But the opportunity to work in labs on the forefront of stem cell research, pharmaceutical development, clinical research and medical robotics (not on our campus, but on the main campus) should be a huge plus for anyone interested in a research medical career. And that is outside the MD/PhD option.


this argument used to make me angry, now it just shows me how silly people can be, myself included. YES there is research here, high quality too- I agree with you 10000000% but the program does not allow students to really get involved. There just isnt enough time. If the school worked the thesis into our schedules from day one and actually enticed PI's to take us on and get the work done it would be much much better. Sadly, most students produce less research with the thesis than they did with Touro- because the bureaucracy bogs the thesis down. Touro grads actually pumped out more clinical papers/research involvement anyway than the TeAMS students. So in theory the thesis is good, but in reality it does not help anyone. Maybe other students had a different experience than me; but program directors did not care that I had a thesis; research in any form was considered a bonus provided my usmle score made the cut.




The price is also a draw---$25,000 a year is about half as much a most private medical schools in the states, and the cost of living is much cheaper here, too. Haifa should also be a draw---living by the Mediterranean has been great, and the city is a haven of diversity and acceptance in a region known for...the opposite.

it is less expensive than US private schools; you are again correct, but what good are these savings if you don't get a residency. Let me remind you that even SABA and AUC in the bahamas put people into competitive residencies this year and SABA at least is pretty cheap, i think 10 K per year.




Nearing the end of my 3rd year of clinical rotations, I can honestly say the teaching this year has been terrific. The attending doctors and even the heads of departments have spent lots of time with us, teaching in a direct and personal way that I understand few students in America are privileged to receive. Also, the diverse hospital populations in the North of Israel offer an exposure to a wide range of problems that, while unfortunate for the patients, offer clinical experiences I will not soon forget.

the attendings do spend time with you as a student here this is true again. does it really matter? I don't know. In the states it varies and you get stuck with residents frequently, but in the end students come out ok. so i don't know how much this really matters in the long run.


Again---the program has some serious drawbacks. The pre-clinical schedule is disorganized at best, and is more focused on teaching whatever the lecturer's personal field of research is than on the general topics necessary for the Boards. However, having spoken to friends of mine at upper-tier schools in the States, they claimed to have the same problem. In the end, most pre-clinical studying at any school is up to the student, only more so at the Technion.


preclinical schedule is a mess. as for topics taught, the issue for me is that there is no attempt to guide the lectures/courses towards clinical integration. a prof could cover his research, but if it has clinical relevance it is still academically nutritious. Here you do not have clinical integration; this is a major problem for usmle prep.

It is true that US schools also have messy lectures, but they are given their notes, lectures and materials at the start of school. some/most schools even video record or stream the footage so students can review at home. here students actually argue with the profs to get the notes. I have no idea how they expect us to study without syllabi and notes it is truly ridiculous.


On top of that, the administration is still adjusting to the transformation of the program from a handful of students to 30+ per year, and is thus often found ill-prepared for the demands of the students. This is on top of the difference in administrative style that is unique to Israel. There is no doubt about it---the program does not have the huge staff resources of most American med schools. From filing paperwork for the Boards, to finding rotations in American hospitals your 4th year---you will need to find help doing this on your own. It's not easy, and I would not recommend this program to anyone without a strong independent streak.


the Touro program used to have 20 some students years ago.
The Israeli program is in excess of 100 students per year. The faculty has the resources to teach/train a tiny group of 30 students. The problem is that only 4 people roughly run the program. The school (Technion as a whole?) does not invest our tuition in more staff.

Administrative style unique to Israel- what garbage! seriously do you believe that? if that were the case trust me, american companies would not be establishing corporate sites in Haifa or Israel as a whole. There are too few people performing too many tasks in this program leading to break down of the system. administrative style -HA!!!


:crackingup::crackingup::crackingup:

All told, it's been a difficult 2.5 years here, but I feel that I am being well prepared for a career in medicine, and I would recommend the program to any applicant with a strong sense of independence, a curiosity for research, and the desire for exposure to medicine here for whatever reason.

Any interested in talking on the program should feel free to contact me through my profile here on ValueMD (though give me a bit of time for response....I *am* in my third year...)

The 2010 class also is well prepared for a career in medicine, yet they did not even apply for the match due to the failings of this program.

At least the school is on top of one topic: MONEY. Demanding tuition as "urgent" now that the tuition payments are due. Every semester when tuition is due, no delay is made to browbeat students for their money; if only the students' needs were as "urgent"

hde342
03-31-2010, 07:39 AM
I am perplexed how you can so effortlessly airbrush the reality in Haifa. The dishonesty continues uninterrupted. Why am I not surprised? Rofeh26 is a perfect fit for the atmosphere of deception at the Technion. The medical education at the Technion ends up not being cheaper. It is much more expensive in the long-run. Most current students did not have the option to attend a private medical school like Harvard that carries a tuition price tag of $43K/yr. Public medical schools are much cheaper.

SUNY Downstate is $22,800/yr for in-state applicants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SUNY Stonybrook is $22,800/yr for in-state applicants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SUNY Upstate is $22,800/yr for in-state applicants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SUNY Buffalo is $22,800/yr for in-state applicants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
University of Michigan is $24,755/yr for in-state applicants!!!!!!!!
University of Maryland Medical is $11,960/yr for in-staters!!!!!!
Florida State University Medical is $20,354/yr in-state!!!!!!!

Most other public schools have in-state tuition in the range of 20K-30K. Do the research on your own.

Ppl in this program were not strong enough applicants to receive admissions to out-of-state programs. The Technion is charging the same amount of money and in some cases more money than reputable medical schools in North America. The difference is the Technion is providing a 2nd-3rd rate medical education, and they are deceptively advertising the program. This is a modified Israeli program with almost no clinical integration, and almost no correlation with the USMLE. The Technion advertises that the curriculum is centered around the USMLE, yet the curriculum is not centered around the USMLE. Does it make sense to come to the Technion? Why would a person want to take on 150K-200K in debt for a 2nd-3rd medical education? Why would a person want 1/4 the opportunities compared to an American or Canadian medical grad? Take home message: Get your medical education in America.

Round-trip travel ends up being around $1,500 per person. Living costs are negligibly cheaper than in the US or Canada, and the standard of living is much lower in Israel and even lower in Haifa. If you want a car, be prepared to spend $15K-20K on a 10 year old clunker. The cash for clunkers program is an everyday reality in Israel. Good luck finding a car, and once you find a car, have fun going through the bureaucratic nightmare of car ownership.

Rofeh26 I know that you mean well, coming to terms with reality is tough for everyone, but do some research before spewing out noxious ego smog. It is potentially very damaging, and you are only wasting the time of readers and other medical students that must thwart your surreptitious efforts to sucker people into this program.

Putting down medical schools in America to try and uplift the Technion is unprofessional and dishonest. I am supposed to believe that because you spoke to one person in America, that all of a sudden the Technion's pre-clinical years are on par with American medical schools?

Avoid the Technion and do not be blinded by the ego smog emanating from self-interested scam artists.

student2
03-31-2010, 09:40 AM
@Rofeh26,

That's all great, but you're conveniently ignoring one small fact: American students actually match into residencies, often of their choice. How can you defend the fact that only 20% of this years "graduating class" are going to enter residency? Moreover, you can't say with any degree of certainty what the match list would have looked like had there been 100% participation in the match. For all you know, 50% of the class might have not matched. And there is no reason to think that the same thing will not happen with the class of 2011.

dawkins
03-31-2010, 10:07 AM
Rofeh I must ask, respectfully what are you talking about? Are you the proverbial janitor at the Yale library trying to clean up after our scholar (378rpd)? He did make a pretty big mess. The mess has metastasized and the hoodwinkers can no longer sweep over it anymore.

Student claims are not exaggerated. It is disrespectful for you to feebly invalidate students that have played by the rules and have been burned by the administration. Students have been written off as expendable and meaningless by the administration in the name of kesef! The level of dysfunction outlined on the forums must be very hard to believe for an outsider, and painful for the insiders to undergo. Believe the claims or find out yourself the hard way. The school really is this dysfunctional. Coming to terms with the incompetence known as the Technion American Medical Students Program has not been easy. The Technion has limited integrity and this trickles down to many of the students. If I was one of the massive Technion fundraisers in America, Switzerland, or Great Britian, I would be demanding retribution in the form of firings and salary deductions. It is remarkable how some students are capable of convincing themselves they are not getting swindled by the Technion. I would be much obliged to participate in a case study on the development of their pathological conditions. I am really not surprised how students suck others into a malignant program in the name of egocentricity. It is a vicious cycle and it is really tragic.

If you want to overpay for a 2nd/3rd rate education to maybe become a primary care physician and then drown in perpetual debt, choose the Technion. If you want a 4-year program that will very likely extend into a 5-year prorgram, choose the Technion. If you want a program that is weakly correlated to the USMLE, choose the Technion. PM me for more details. Believe it or not, I am being polite. I also have my limits.

Living in a place where people are always thinking about their selfish satisfactions is living in an atmosphere worse than smog. Sadly, this is the Technion.

I must also take a moment to thank the many clever people on these forums for expanding my vocabulary.

TechNewb
04-01-2010, 10:28 AM
Now that the mudslinging is over I can lift my head up again; that was intense. Seriously, you have me worried.

anyway can someone tell me what kind of thesis projects students are doing in the TeAMS program?

What does your thesis entail in your experience; time devotion, mishaps, discoveries, what is this paper work issue that is bogging down students?

thanks

sleeplessinhaifa
04-01-2010, 11:28 AM
Sackler posted their partial list of Match results for this year:

Internal Medicine - Lenox hill (ny), St. Lukes, Long Island Jewish, maimonodes, allegheny (pitt), Staten Island, Beth Israel, Einstein Monte, Cedar Sinai (LA)
Obgyn - Einstein, Sinai Baltimore, LIJ
Peds-Neuro - UPMC
Surg Prelim - Marmoth ? jersey, Denver, and DC, Northshore LIJ
Neurology - penn state, tulane
Urology - UCLA
Orthopedic Surgery - Einstein Monte
Ophthalmology - Case Western
Anesthesia - UConn
Family Medicine - Uconn
Pediatrics - LIJ, Uconn, Childrens Hospital LA, Mt. Sinai, Einstein Jacobi
Psychiatry - U Colorado, UTHSC San antonio, U hawaii, Mt Sinai, Beth Israel
Pathology - UMass, UWisconsin
Radiology - Long Island (forgot)
General Surgery - Buffalo, UMDNJ
Emergency Medicine - Beaumont michigan, Jefferson in Philly, Mt. Sinai, St Lukes, metropolitan NY, Las Vegas

Good for them, but I think this demonstrates that it wasn't so much the issue with this year's Match itself (some people say it was particularly rough this year), rather something inherently wrong with the Technion program.

TechNewb
04-01-2010, 03:03 PM
anyone have the BGU match stats from this year?

I don't understand how Sackler could do so well and the Technion do so poorly. 1 guy matched? This is disturbing.

What is Sackler doing that is so different from Technion; or rather what are you guys doing that is so wrong?

:confused:

TEAMS
04-01-2010, 03:19 PM
Sackler posted their partial list of Match results for this year:

Internal Medicine - Lenox hill (ny), St. Lukes, Long Island Jewish, maimonodes, allegheny (pitt), Staten Island, Beth Israel, Einstein Monte, Cedar Sinai (LA)
Obgyn - Einstein, Sinai Baltimore, LIJ
Peds-Neuro - UPMC
Surg Prelim - Marmoth ? jersey, Denver, and DC, Northshore LIJ
Neurology - penn state, tulane
Urology - UCLA
Orthopedic Surgery - Einstein Monte
Ophthalmology - Case Western
Anesthesia - UConn
Family Medicine - Uconn
Pediatrics - LIJ, Uconn, Childrens Hospital LA, Mt. Sinai, Einstein Jacobi
Psychiatry - U Colorado, UTHSC San antonio, U hawaii, Mt Sinai, Beth Israel
Pathology - UMass, UWisconsin
Radiology - Long Island (forgot)
General Surgery - Buffalo, UMDNJ
Emergency Medicine - Beaumont michigan, Jefferson in Philly, Mt. Sinai, St Lukes, metropolitan NY, Las Vegas

Good for them, but I think this demonstrates that it wasn't so much the issue with this year's Match itself (some people say it was particularly rough this year), rather something inherently wrong with the Technion program.

Where was this posted?

sleeplessinhaifa
04-01-2010, 03:46 PM
On Student Doctor forums

Sackler 2010 Match | Africa and Middle East | Student Doctor Network (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=711394)

student2
04-01-2010, 08:19 PM
Someone needs to take the Sackler match list and show it to the people who 'run' this program and show them what a successful overseas American program is SUPPOSED to be like. There couldn't be a more glaring contrast between two offshore programs than between us and Sackler. And the crazy thing is is that the students in Sackler aren't exactly superstars in relation to us (i.e., in theory, the students coming into both programs are generally more or less equal, based on undergraduate GPA's, MCATs, etc.).

oddball55
04-01-2010, 11:00 PM
Hey TechNewb,

I just checked the BGU-MSIH website and they have the 2010 match list up...I don't have enough posts to post the link, but you can google the website.

Among them...

Internal: Mayo, SUNY
Family: Brown, New Mexico, Colorado, UMass, Arizona
Ob/Gyn: Mayo, Drexel, NY Methodist
Surgery: Baylor, SUNY Upstate, UMass
Psych: Dartmouth, SUNY, Virginia, Toronto
Peds: SUNY Downstate, Maryland, Virginia
Emergency: Wayne State, Indiana
Anesthesiology: Boston
Derm: Roger Williams Med Center

Hope that helps. Cheers

oddball55
04-02-2010, 01:32 AM
As far as match % goes, I believe that class had 45 students (according to PufferFish, who kindly answered my previous post asking that question)...if I counted correctly, the MSIH website lists 45 residency placements, so it appears everyone from that class matched.

PufferFish
04-02-2010, 04:36 AM
Hey All,

BGU matched very well this year! Some people prematched as well. Very few scrambled as well. I'm not sure of the exact number of scrambles. Word of mouth is that 1 or 2 people had to scramble. I did get to know quite a few 4th years and they were all a happy bunch. It's so strange how the Technion has really done so poorly. They should learn from Sackler and BGU which are both very well run programs.

TechNewb
04-02-2010, 07:39 AM
Sackler and BGU have very nice match lists. comparable to US schools almost. I am impressed.

unless something goes awry I am not getting near the Technion; sounds shady, disorganized, and even IF the management style of Israel is just that, at least the other two schools put their students into competitive residencies, or should I say residencies period.

so maybe I will see some of you next year :p

PufferFish
04-02-2010, 08:47 AM
Hey TechNewb,

It seems like Technion is just too much of a risk so I definitely agree with your decision to not go to the Technion. I have never talked to any Technion students directly so I don't know too much about their situation, but this forum definitely gives me little confidence in their program. There have been constant negative comments about the Technion throughout the years, but nothing like the recent forum comments. I think the program will really struggle to get students now.

Sackler students seem to be VERY happy with their program. I've talked to several Sackler students and I've never heard bad things. The consensus in their classes is very positive. At BGU, most people really like it here too. There are a few that don't like Be'er Sheva and some people that are probably not best suited for International Health work. However, most of the people really enjoy it here. I REALLY like it here so far!

I would definitely visit whichever school you plan to go to and talk to the students in the classes. Talk to as many people as possible. The school's will likely arrange for this and this will give you an idea about how happy the students are, etc. You'll also get a good feel for the city and see if the location is right for you. If you like night life and beaches, you can't get much better than Tel-Aviv!

student3
04-02-2010, 05:50 PM
I have been reading this thread and have been frustrated to see how many exaggerations and statements without backing have been made. So I wanted to chime in. While I expect to get many responses to what I am about to post, I respectfully request for those people to not just blindly attack what I say with one word lines but to back up what they say with specific examples.

I begin


you mean the kinks that have existed for 4 years and have not yet been addressed?

To say that all of the kinks have not been addressed is wrong.
(1) We had an issue that make up exams for 2nd year courses only occurred -during 3rd year. This prevented many people from taking the boards between 2nd and 3rd year. The school has since changed the schedule and all the classes have the make up exams right after 2nd year exams.
(2) We complained about the thesis, not having enough information or time to complete it. Subsequently we were e-mailed contacts we could speak to if we were having trouble and our deadlines were extended almost a year!
For the people who are having trouble completing there thesis, many of you are doing clinical research that involves busy-work and finding patients and it is time consuming. But this isn't new information, if you would have thought about what type of things you needed to do to complete the thesis you may have foreseen some of these issues and better schedule your break time or worked on a thesis that required less busy-work and more analysis.
There are a few students in the 4th year class that have been published in medical journals or have had articles accepted that are pending publication while at the Technion. This is not an easy task and yet these students (at least 3 that I am aware of) have done so.
The thesis may be time consuming, but you have your entire time in medical school to work on it, including summer breaks and vacations. In my opinion if you plan things out and get on the ball by the end of first year you can have the thesis completed without too much trouble. But be careful, if you choose to do work that is patient dependent and requires a lot of data-gathering, be ready to do the work. Otherwise, do a retrospective study or something that seems feasible.
If you, as a 4th year student, can honestly say to me that you've been working hard on your thesis (10-20 hours a month over the last 1-2 years) and think it's impossible to complete, I will be VERY surprised. Especially since for the majority of our clinical years, we were given at least 1 half day a week (usually mondays) specifically for working on our thesis/research.
(3) We complained about not having enough people working in the office.
They have hired 2 new staff members and have split the work. While more stratification of tasks may be necessary, they took steps to do what we asked, they didn’t ignore us.
(4)We complained about not having an advisor, they brought on Professor Gralnek and Ayelet. While Gralnek may not always have answers, he is a helpful source of information. And Ayelet, who I had my doubts about as well as she seemed to be brought in to be more of a social worker for the program than an academic advisor, is actually pretty terrific. Ask her for help finding info and she will do research for you and help guide you as best she can. How many people who complained actually made appointments with both of these people and then if they didn’t get what they wanted, complained about the SPECIFICS of their problem, to give the administration a chance to fix it.
(5) We complained about not having scrubs for Anatomy lab, and the school actually bought each one of us a pair of scrubs.
(6) We complained about not being able to give the secretary paperwork if she wasn’t in her office… they installed a drop box so that we could leave her documents.
(7) My 1st year, there were many complaints about missing syllabi. But since I’ve made it to the clinical years, every course I’ve been in has had both a syllabus and a schedule ready for us. I don’t know if this is the case for the preclinical years now but the clinical years organizers have got their act together in this regard.
So to say the school has done nothing to try to fix problems is not true. Maybe they didn’t make the changes that certain people specifically wanted, but they did strive to help with areas that were problematic and continue to do so.


this argument used to make me angry, now it just shows me how silly people can be, myself included. YES there is research here, high quality too- I agree with you 10000000% but the program does not allow students to really get involved. There just isnt enough time. If the school worked the thesis into our schedules from day one and actually enticed PI's to take us on and get the work done it would be much much better. Sadly, most students produce less research with the thesis than they did with Touro- because the bureaucracy bogs the thesis down. Touro grads actually pumped out more clinical papers/research involvement anyway than the TeAMS students. So in theory the thesis is good, but in reality it does not help anyone. Maybe other students had a different experience than me; but program directors did not care that I had a thesis; research in any form was considered a bonus provided my usmle score made the cut.


Look at what was written "If the school worked the thesis into our schedules from day one and actually enticed PI's to take us on and get the work done it would be much much better." While I agree if the school worked to incorporate things in our schedule many of us might have been on top of the situation earlier and would have less problems. But who is at fault here? The school for not pushing us, or the students for not having initiative. I have on many occasions argued that the school could do things to make our life easier, but is that an excuse for not being on top of my own future and requirements? We had a meeting our first year about the thesis. We also received a minimum of 2 e-mails per year telling us about upcoming thesis deadlines. I think saying we did not have enough time is a cop out.
Also, to say we had no time to do research is also untrue. I know of at least a few students in my class that worked in labs at the faculty building. Cancer Research, Cardiac Stem Cell Research, Statin Research, Opthalmology Research, etc… These people found time to work in labs. Some used this lab work for the thesis, some did it just for other reasons, but bottom line, they found time. The first 2 years were busy but the time was there, for the people that made it a priority.
And as far as the thesis not being important goes to program directors, I think they are wrong. I put my research on my CV and found that it became a major talking point during my interviews in the US. Depending on where you apply and what you did research in, this importance may be more or less, but don’t think it’s a waste of time, because it is not.



it is less expensive than US private schools; you are again correct, but what good are these savings if you don't get a residency. Let me remind you that even SABA and AUC in the bahamas put people into competitive residencies this year and SABA at least is pretty cheap, i think 10 K per year.

I was surprised to see how reasonably priced med schools in America are. This however is mostly true for In-state public schools where google seems to quote the average at being about 22,199$ for instate public schools and $39,964 for in state private schools. Out of state I’d assume is going to be much more expensive. As far as the quotes for prices at other programs at other posts, I cannot vouch for them, but would be very surprised if they weren’t true. Looks like there are a lot of medical school bargains out there.
I will however add that something that the technion did that impressed me and saved me money was giving me textbooks for classes. I received all of the required textbooks on loan from the school library. The program specifically ordered copies for everyone in the American class so that we would all have a copy. Books would be returned at the end of a semester/class. For someone that spent close to 800$ a semester on text books in undergrad, this was a HUGE help.


the attendings do spend time with you as a student here this is true again. does it really matter? I don't know. In the states it varies and you get stuck with residents frequently, but in the end students come out ok. so i don't know how much this really matters in the long run.

I can really vouch for the attendings and department directors being hands on with us. Every department I rotated in had at least 5-6 hours per week of face time between my group and the director of the department (clinical teachings, lectures, etc…) as well as the doctors working with me and discussing patients with me day to day were generally attendings.
Some of the lectures the directors of the department gave me have stuck with me to this day and shape the way I look at a patient. They have a lot of experience and taught me things that you can’t learn from a textbook. I think learning from them as opposed to residents is a Major advantage. Though I do not know the split of resident / attending time with students is in the states.
But I agree that in the long run, a lot of what you learn you’ll learn from your own experiences.



preclinical schedule is a mess. as for topics taught, the issue for me is that there is no attempt to guide the lectures/courses towards clinical integration. a prof could cover his research, but if it has clinical relevance it is still academically nutritious. Here you do not have clinical integration; this is a major problem for usmle prep.
It is true that US schools also have messy lectures, but they are given their notes, lectures and materials at the start of school. some/most schools even video record or stream the footage so students can review at home. here students actually argue with the profs to get the notes. I have no idea how they expect us to study without syllabi and notes it is truly ridiculous.

Preclinical schedule was definitely a mess, but they’ve made many changes. They’ve moved courses, removed courses and decreased the time / week in class as compared with my first 2 years.
I agree that SOMETIMES lectures did revolve around the professors research, but I don’t think that this was the majority of cases. This was a few cases and was blown out of proportion. I have powerpoints of most of the lecture that we were given and can happily send samples out to people to show them how much of the content was research based and how much was just standard material.
I would have liked a little more clinical integration in the first 2 years,. The Introduction to Clinical Medicine course (which is a fairly standard course for 2nd year med students that helps integrate a lot of knowledge), would be better served if it correlated to our other lectures and was correlated with clinical teachings at our respective hospitals (ie, teach me about autoimmune diseases and take me to the rheumatology department that week in my hospital). The course improved while I was in it, and has improved a bit since as far as getting lecture notes out ahead of time and keeping subject matter relevant, but it has a lot of room for improvement.
But I am happy on the whole with the knowledge I gained during these 2 years. It was a battle sometimes to understand slides and to feel ready for a test. But I fault myself for this a lot more than I do the school. I had books at my disposal and time to read, but I chose to use my time differently and therefore had to work harder come test time.



the Touro program used to have 20 some students years ago.
The Israeli program is in excess of 100 students per year. The faculty has the resources to teach/train a tiny group of 30 students. The problem is that only 4 people roughly run the program. The school (Technion as a whole?) does not invest our tuition in more staff.

Comparing us to Touro and saying they had huge numbers isn’t a fair argument. The touro class had a few years with 15-20 people, but the majority of the recent classes have been under 10 per year. I think the school underestimated the amount of work needed to be done for 32 students in my year and the increasing number of students that followed. They have been adding staff and it has definitely made a difference, but there is more work to be done.
As far as money spent on us goes. The Tuition we pay to the Technion gets sent to the Main university and not to the medical faculty. The faculty is budgeted money and they have to fight to get increases and more staff etc… They have fought to get more workers and they are winning that battle, but it is a slow one that may take a few more years to get to where the school staff needs to be.
As far as wasting money on other things, We have had some upgrades in the last few years, LCD tv’s, upgrades to the Labs in our building, refrigerator for the 2nd yr class, Hot/Cold water dispense near the 1st year class… these upgrades were paid for by money attributed to the Rappaport building and not directly from the Medical schools budget.


Administrative style unique to Israel- what garbage! seriously do you believe that? if that were the case trust me, american companies would not be establishing corporate sites in Haifa or Israel as a whole. There are too few people performing too many tasks in this program leading to break down of the system. administrative style -HA!!!

Things in Israel are definitely not run the same way as they are in America. That is something students need to accept if they come to school here. That is the case at the Technion, Sackler and Ben Gurion. I know this as I’ve been in touch with a few students from the other 2 programs during my time here and I have heard similar frustrations to ours. That doesn’t make me an expert but it does lead me to believe that these problems are not unique to us.
While I agree things need to change, I don’t think they were so awful as to have ruined peoples chances of being successful, if they were willing to put the time and effort into it. You need to adapt to the situation.
The administration has definitely tried to improve things, and they continue to do so. It may not be at the pace that everyone wants, but it’s being done and I have faith that this program will continue to get better with every passing year.



The 2010 class also is well prepared for a career in medicine, yet they did not even apply for the match due to the failings of this program.

I think the 2010 class is as well prepared for a career in medicine as an American program. In my opinion, the reasons that people did not apply to the match are not because they were not prepared.
Many people just didn’t sit down and take the time and energy necessary to commit to studying for the boards. Because of this, people did not have all their USMLE scores in during the application period and subsequently people got fewer interviews than candidates who had their USMLE scores in. Fewer interviews lowers your chances at matching, and while I don’t know all the name of the programs submitted by the match applicants. I was told by one applicant that they only ranked one program and I am told (though cant back up as it was through hearsay) that another applicant only ranked 1 or 2 programs). Coming from an International medical school and only ranking 1-2 programs SEVERELY limits your chances at getting a residency.
I think the people in my class didn’t stay on top of everything they needed to and because of that they weren’t prepared for applications, interview season and the match. The people I spoke to while I was going through the program were touro students. Touro students had an extra year to organize for the match (as they were a 4.5 year program and much of their last year was open) so there timeline didn’t coincide with mine. If you are a proactive student you could have read “First Aid for the Match” (on loan at the school library) and see what your timeline should be and what requirements you have. Students that were proactive and did this, stayed on top of things. Other students waited to be spoon-fed everything they needed from e-mails from fellow students and the school. While the school did email us occasionally about timelines we should be concerned about, they did not present us with all the information we needed. While I wish they would have, can anyone really blame the students for not doing there due diligence and looking this info up themselves?

I hope this gives some more info to people reading these posts. I have presented information in a response to a post and tried to back up what I said with facts. If you feel like I need to add more facts, or would like to counter one of my points, please do, but in the spirit of making this talk fact based rather then witty-line based, please back up your points with SPECIFIC examples and we can move from there.

student2
04-02-2010, 06:34 PM
@student3

1) Did you match or pre-match?
2) If you did, don't you think it is a bit asinine to insinuate that 80% of your class are lazy and irresponsible?
3) If you didn't, who are you to be criticizing those people in the 4th year who are having trouble completing their thesis on time. When you will walk the walk, then we can talk.
4) Your post is longer than Dostoevsky’s magnum opus, "The Idiot". I don't think that most people are going to read such a long-winded post.

I respect some of your viewpoints. I think that they are helpful and salient to the discussion. I am just taking issue with how you expressed them (perhaps done unintentionally).

BTW, nice user name. ;)

student3
04-02-2010, 07:25 PM
As far as how I responded, I recognize it was long, but I tried to respond point by point stating facts.

As far as your questions go...

[QUOTE=student2;1245550]
1) Did you match or pre-match?

I did not have my all of my board scores in by February and therefore wasn't able to enter the match. I blame myself for not sitting down and doing the work necessary to get the boards done.



2) If you did, don't you think it is a bit asinine to insinuate that 80% of your class are lazy and irresponsible?


1st, Dont put words in my mouth in calling people Lazy and Irresponsible. I mentioned that people in my class didn't always do their due diligence and weren't always proactive. I would describe my class as very hard working when it came down to Finals. When test time came around, people were usually on the ball working long days to make sure they had the material down. I think people lacked in their research on what was required of them, and I also think that many just weren't ready to take on the boards (anyone that has ever taken them knows it is exhausting to study for and takes a lot of time and effort, your head really needs to be in the game).

I think if we had more people pushing us (in getting the USMLE done and to be on top of what we needed for residency) more of us would have entered the match and subsequently matched. But I don't blame the school for not doing something that all of us really should have been doing for ourselves.

I am speaking from my experiences, and the experiences of students within my class that talk with me.



3) If you didn't, who are you to be criticizing those people in the 4th year who are having trouble completing their thesis on time. When you will walk the walk, then we can talk.


As far as criticizing classmates, I only criticize the people that say we are not given enough time, as I think that is not true...we were. We had a lot of time open to us to do thesis work. Many of the students that argue and say we did not, did not start their work early enough or did not spend enough time working on it throughout their 4 years. While I acknowledge there may be 1 or 2 ppl who had bad luck and might have had a proposal rejected, or couldnt find enough patients, They could have ensured there success by planning ahead of time, starting early and being realistic with time goals.




4) Your post is longer than Dostoevsky’s magnum opus, "The Idiot". I don't think that most people are going to read such a long-winded post.

I know the average person wont read my full post, but people who are seriously considering this school, or lowerclassmen that are reading posts and worrying might read the whole thing and I think it will help them see another students perspective. It's entirely up to the reader.



I respect some of your viewpoints. I think that they are helpful and salient to the discussion. I am just taking issue with how you expressed them (perhaps done unintentionally).

BTW, nice user name. ;)

Thanks for respecting some of my viewpoints, I am just trying to shed light on some of the exaggerations by supplying facts and not just making unjustified blanket accusations/denials. Students at the technion have a lot at their disposals and in my opinion can/will succeed in the future. But they need to make sure they know what the road to becoming a doctor entails and need to be on top of things for most of the way if they want to be competitive applicants.

and yes my username is terrific, just ask student1.

murbrow
04-03-2010, 02:44 AM
[quote=student2;1245550] I did not have my all of my board scores in by February and therefore wasn't able to enter the match. I blame myself for not sitting down and doing the work necessary to get the boards done.

It seems that the vast majority of 4th years without a residency for next year don't have one because weren't able to enter the match. So it's impossible to gauge, from the low super low stats this year, what sort of residencies you 4th years will get next year.

I know most of you are angry and worried and blame the Technion for being in the situation that you're in right now. But my question is, even though you'll be stuck this year without a job, do you feel that you'll be able to place into competitive residencies for next year?

Despite the barrage of complaints about the class layout and using of Technion exams instead of stock board exams, do you feel that you're less prepared or less knowledgeable than your peers from other schools (i.e. Sackler) or do you feel that you're just as prepared and knowledgeable, and that if not for the issue of timing, thesis, etc, you would have been able to place into a good residency?

student3
04-03-2010, 08:29 AM
[quote=student3;1245573]

It seems that the vast majority of 4th years without a residency for next year don't have one because weren't able to enter the match. So it's impossible to gauge, from the low super low stats this year, what sort of residencies you 4th years will get next year.

I know most of you are angry and worried and blame the Technion for being in the situation that you're in right now. But my question is, even though you'll be stuck this year without a job, do you feel that you'll be able to place into competitive residencies for next year?

Despite the barrage of complaints about the class layout and using of Technion exams instead of stock board exams, do you feel that you're less prepared or less knowledgeable than your peers from other schools (i.e. Sackler) or do you feel that you're just as prepared and knowledgeable, and that if not for the issue of timing, thesis, etc, you would have been able to place into a good residency?


I can speak for myself, and I will say what I felt as compared to other medical students while doing rotations in the US. As far as knowledge I felt extremely prepared while working in US hospitals. My knowledge-base seemed to be on par with if not better than some of the American students and foreign students I was working with.

I will say this, as far as working in a hospital, I felt the American students did have an advantage, they were more involved in writing admissions, progress notes, discharge letters, etc... and it took me a few days of following them around to get all of that down.

I did apply to schools this year and interviewed. During my interviews I felt like a very competitive candidate. But the bottom line was that I did not have my affairs in order on time to enter the match.

I personally feel that I will be able to place in a good residency next year. I also think that after seeing what my class went through, the 3rd year class got a nice kick in the butt and most of them have gotten on the ball if they weren't already on. My PERSONAL feelings are that next years graduating class will have a much more successful time in the match, both entering and getting placed. I also feel that those of us that did not enter the match/or successfully match will be able to regroup this year, get things together and be competitive for the 2011 match. I can't back this up with data, but that is the sense that I have.

My class is filled with people with competitive grades and a mixture of both adequate and very competitive board scores. Most of us have done rotations in the states and were able to get letters of recommendations. On paper we look just as good as candidates from the other Israeli programs. So I see no logical reason as to why we will not be able to match.

I do foresee being asked why I didn't start my residency immediately after graduation. I'm not sure how I will answer, but you can be sure I will spend this next year doing research/work that will show I am serious about my career in medicine and I didn't simply take a year off.

bogbbcgb
04-05-2010, 02:48 PM
See this website "************* dot blogspot dot com"

Truthbearer
04-05-2010, 07:23 PM
User can't play nice.

hde342
04-05-2010, 08:46 PM
I butted heads previously with the "truth" (Truthbearer) when he was claiming to be a resident with NY_ROB (a former ValueMD member who was banned and is now finishing his last year of residency). Is Truthbearer's claim still in the fold? Truthbearer has quickly wised up to the problems at the Technion.

It piques my interest how numbskulls assume the biggest whiners and complainers are the worst students. Auuuuuuuuuuuuu contraire! Most of the success stories want nothing to do with the Technion!

Professor Ferris Bueller MD - Hematology
Technion - Israel Institute of Fraud, Buffoon Management, and Mail Order Medical Colleges

med5tudent
04-05-2010, 11:16 PM
Kansas - carry on my wayward son

student2
04-05-2010, 11:36 PM
Guys,

Our gripes about the program have been stated ad nauseum. I think there's not much point in continuing with these "b*tch session" threads since pretty much every possible point, both positive and negative, about the program has been stated. Now, we are just making ourselves look like a bunch of stupid (learn to write with correct spelling and grammar!) and immature (personal attacks in such a public realm aren't becoming of medical students) complainers. Ultimately, we are doing the biggest disservice to ourselves and to our collective reputation.

student_number_9
04-07-2010, 05:46 PM
Guys,

Our gripes about the program have been stated ad nauseum. I think there's not much point in continuing with these "b*tch session" threads since pretty much every possible point, both positive and negative, about the program has been stated. Now, we are just making ourselves look like a bunch of stupid (learn to write with correct spelling and grammar!) and immature (personal attacks in such a public realm aren't becoming of medical students) complainers. Ultimately, we are doing the biggest disservice to ourselves and to our collective reputation.


Again, there are four factions here. 1) those that wish to inform prospective students (possibly preventing them from) attending the TeAMS program. 2) Those who post in the desperate hope that the Admins will listen like they have before and make the changes necessary. 3) Prospective students seeking insight. 4) Those who wish to support the program.


This is the ONLY reasonable outlet that we, as students in this program have left. The administration refused to listen to our pleas for 4 years. YES, changes were implemented. I am not denying that. Some of these changes were for betterment of the student body- this is undeniable.


B*tch sessions are not the goal here. There is literally no other outlet for the students to voice their concerns and or frustrations. This is the last hold out.

so student2, and others who ridicule those of us trying to help YOU. please foster debate rather than trying to kill it. we will all benefit from a maturing program with a reputation built on successful alumni.

TO THE ADMINISTRATION READING THIS. PLEASE, TO HELP PREVENT THE CATASTROPHE THAT WAS THE 2010 CLASS, AND WILL NOW POSSIBLY BE THE 2011 CLASS. ADOPT THE AMERICAN TIME TABLE FOR YOUR PROGRAM. ADOPT AN AMERICAN CURRICULUM. IMPLEMENT WHAT IS NECESSARY TO MAKE THIS PROGRAM SHINE AT ITS FULL POTENTIAL.

PLEASE. WE HAVE BEEN BEGGING YOU. :please:

student2
04-07-2010, 11:39 PM
studenet_number_9,

I understand your points, but here is why I disagree with you:

1) The administration may or may not read our posts on valueMD. If it does, then wonderful. Theres more than enough info here for them to read. Ditto for prospective students. Everything at this point is being reiterated for the umpteenth time.

2) Many American medical programs in the states are, from my understanding, just as dysfunctional as our program, if not moreso. So we are NOT exceptional in this sense.

3) Any student who joins the program from hereon out and who doesnt learn from our mistakes and growing pains (i.e., who doesnt find a way to complete their boards and thesis on time) will have no one to blame but themselves. This years 3rd and 4th years were the trailblazers of the TeAMS program and unfortunately for them, they had to find out things for themselves based on first-hand experience rather than being able to draw on the accumulated knowledge and experience of others.

4) We are stating our arguments ad nauseum. So if someone else repeats them for the 150th time, then I dont think it will help us.

5) WE ARE HURTING OURSELVES AND OUR REPUTATIONS. I can assure you that any residency director who reads ValueMD, and trust me some most surely do, is going to come away with a bad impression about us- that we are complainers who air our dirty laundry on a public forum such as valueMD. The b*tching should be kept internally, among the students, just as it is in most every other med school.

dawkins
04-08-2010, 01:54 PM
Many American medical programs in the states are, from my understanding, just as dysfunctional as our program, if not moreso. So we are NOT exceptional in this sense.


You have said so many brilliant things. You have impressed me from time to time, but it is disappointing to see this type of naurishkeit (nonsense) from you. Please name me the American MD programs you are referring to that are either equally as dysfunctional in comparison to the Technion or more dysfunctional than the Technion? How would such programs retain their accreditation? The answer is simple. They would not.

student2
04-08-2010, 02:29 PM
You have said so many brilliant things. You have impressed me from time to time, but it is disappointing to see this type of naurishkeit (nonsense) from you. Please name me the American MD programs you are referring to that are either equally as dysfunctional in comparison to the Technion or more dysfunctional than the Technion? How would such programs retain their accreditation? The answer is simple. They would not.

I've spoken to 3 friends at 3 different medical schools in the States and they've all told me the same things- most of the things that we complain about also happen in US schools. They may not be quite as dysfunctional as the TeAMS program or as dysfunctional in the same way(s), but they are, nevertheless, without their (serious) flaws.

TEAMS
04-08-2010, 02:46 PM
I've spoken to 3 friends at 3 different medical schools in the States and they've all told me the same things- most of the things that we complain about also happen in US schools. They may not be quite as dysfunctional as the TeAMS program or as dysfunctional in the same way(s), but they are, nevertheless, without their (serious) flaws.

I would love to hear an example of a "serious flaw" at a US medical school -- the 24-hours McDonalds at the hospital cafeteria was closed for a couple days due to remodeling. Or, the hospital only laundered five of my personalized white coats (and not all six).

student_number_9
04-08-2010, 03:07 PM
US schools without flaws? yes, i agree they have their problems.

But, I assure you that the LCME would never allow a school to operate like ours.

to cite a few examples:

(if my post count was higher i would be able insert the links directly)

google medical school on probation and you will see a list of schools ranging from GWU to Tempel to Rosalin Franklin to even Dartmouth of all places.

from the GWU article though:

from the article:
"In an interview, John Williams, provost and vice president for health affairs, said the criticisms fell into three major areas: "curriculum management," "administrative processes" and inadequate study and lounge space. He said some of the problems have been corrected."



recapping, Temple U, Rosalind Franklin, and Dartmouth have all experienced probationary statuses in the past. although I can't gain access to those articles since they are too old at this point. the Dartmouth one is from the 50s/60s and not so relevant today.

The LCME is there to ensure education quality for the students AND their future patients. i wish we had this safety net for us, maybe we do and just aren't aware of it.

keep in mind also that residency programs get cited on occasion- a quick google search turns these stories up too.


----
people in this program need to recognize that the potential here is huge, and if we all stick together and honestly push the administration to listen and not just hear us; this will be the best off shore medschool. i am convinced of this. but the admins really need to work hard. if this is a business like the Dean claims, then the school needs to treat it like one and truly invest the time and energy, need I say words like passion or dedication to make this an American-like program in Haifa.

anyone who pitches this program as wonderful, good, satisfactory (decent as someone did before), or takes the fall for the school is not only doing a disservicing himself but also disenfranchising future students of what could and should be a top notch medical education and frankly unique and amazing four year experience abroad. push the school to do what is right and we all win in the long run.

I also seriously doubt that a residency program director has enough time to read through this site. there are dozens of schools here, some with very damning posts. Ross and SGU all have nasty posts - yet they put students into some very competitive fields consistently.

This forum is about improving our situation in the long run and forging a program that we can all be proud of.



-------
as a side note to future/current students, I'd also like to suggest or point out rather, that students here don't even have access to an up to date list of hospital matches. It would help students if the school would inform us where we have an insider to help us gain a residency. but of course we don't have that info; students are instructed to talk to the upperclassmen or graduates.

but of course the graduates should have passed down this info without students having to beg....alas, alumni graduate and run! it is sad.

student2
04-08-2010, 03:36 PM
without flaws? yes

but i assure you that the LCME would never allow a school to operate like ours.

to cite a few examples:


-We lack a prearranged calendar- yes, the school does not know the operating dates of the academic year.rather the calendar is created as you go. so when it comes time to apply for american rotations for example you have no idea what dates to choose since the school has not yet decided when you will have those 12 weeks free. or for example you don't know your graduation date.

- US students have access to actual advising both financial and academic. we do not. the academic advising issue is serious. there is no advising. i repeat student2. you can call some of our professors advising staff but they are not available for advising. these people have other professions like running the outpatient clinic of rambam. or are professors in the Rheumatology clinic and openly admit that they were assigned this duty because he "spoke English" and was from the states some 20 years ago. we do not have anyone we can turn to for actual up to date advice.

-I assure you one of the reasons many students did not gain residency this year was because they did something wrong (those who applied) proper advising would have avoided some of that.

...you can say it is the students' responsibility to look into these types of matters. but guess what student2. American students don't have to, because their programs are not like ours. they are fully functioning medical programs geared to training future doctors.



I'd also like to suggest or point out rather, that students here don't even have access to an up to date list of hospital matches. It would help students if the school would inform us where we have an insider to help us gain a residency. but of course we don't have that info; students are instructed to talk to the upperclassmen or graduates.

but of course the graduates should have passed down this info without students having to beg....alas, alumni graduate and run! it is sad.


:doh:

Look, I am only saying what I've heard from students in the states. They actually have told me that many of the problems that you just listed, exist at their schools. Yes, they do have prearranged calendars. No, not all schools have academic advising (again, this is what I hear).

student_number_9
04-08-2010, 03:41 PM
funny i was editing my post when you responded already.

i tried to trim it down and make it more informative- see my above post again.

and please google those schools and probation stories.

dawkins
04-15-2010, 11:07 AM
...alas, alumni graduate and run! it is sad.

Most people run from hell and don't look back when they get the chance. If you graduate, what will you do? My guess is you will do the same.

Techniongrad2001
04-16-2010, 06:10 PM
I graduated from the technion in 2001---then part of Touro. I agree that the pre--clinical programs were a complete waste of time, poorly organized , and a detraction from the focus of the usmle1. The tests were based on harrisons internal medicine which is absurd for a second year med student. I am an established neurologist and still feel this way. With respect to the thesis, this is a complete waste of time. Programs do not care about the thesis. They obviosly care about usmle scores, letters of recommendation from us clerkship which are indicators of ur clinical competence. Let me repeat again, the thesis is a waste of time. This program in it's current structure will fail if it fails to do what is advertised.....it's particularly disturbing to hear about the poor match rate. The thesis adds injury to insult as this has postponed when u actually apply for residency. How will u make ends meet ur 5th year while doing thesis? The faculty just don't get it . They didn't get when I was enrolled and it seems that their stubborness has gotten worse. I would be happy to write a letter to faculty, technion society, and have my classmates follow suit. What I am hearing is an outrage

Spencer_Blackwell
04-17-2010, 02:44 PM
Hello Dr Techniongrad2001,

Glad to see alumni tuning into their alma-mater and offering their opinions.

Provided you are a real graduate of this program and not one of the clowns who posted under a thousand different screen names last time; please feel free to elaborate on your experience as an IMG from Israel/Technion.

most people visit this message board to gauge how life may be for them post graduation.

1) was securing a residency more difficult for you compared to US grads?
if so, what would you say was the discrepancy? did programs require higher usmle scores for you etc?

2) you say that programs want usmle scores and rec letters; sounds reasonable. for identity purposes i wont ask where you are employed, but would you say residency programs where you are do, or do not care about the thesis? Is research valued at all? my experience has been that it helps, assuming your numbers and grades are otherwise in good shape.

3) how would you rate the training of the program overall? now that you are a practicing doc, you can look back and honestly reflect on any advantages or deficiencies in your education here~thoughts?

....how did the touro year compare to your preclinical year at the technion?


finally, you offer to petition the school, ATS for change; how did/do your classmates feel about the program and their experiences there?

Techniongrad2001
04-17-2010, 03:53 PM
hi. i am happy to answer any of your questions.
firstly, i want to reassure you that i am a real technion graduate. i finished in 2001 securing a neurology residency and medicine internship. all of my classmates were matched in their top choice residencies---medicine, pedes, obgyn, urology, gen surgery, radiology, etc.

1) question 1- at the time that i applied for residency, for neurology and other residency programs, the playing field was even for most us programs (not all) provided that your USMLE scores were competitive and you had letters of recommendation from US clerkships as this was a token of credibility. For other residency programs, i we were not on a level playing fields....for example--radiology, urology, derm..etc. to get into these programs, you had to have a very good letter from a US based clerkship and a connection. this was essential. so yes..the descrepency existed on a continuum contigent upon what type of residency program you were applying for.

2) research- the basis for your competitiveness in the eyes of residency programs is USMLE score and letters of recommendation from US based clerkships. Of course research cant help..its the icing on the cake..but programs want the basics first. if you have outstanding research experience and poor USMLE/letters of rec, what worth are you to a program. all they care about are: a) clinical skills, b) work ethic, and c) mentally stable. put yourself in the shoes of a program director...you want to acquire grads that will do their work very well and pass their specialty boards after residency....its worthless to them if you can to pathway tracing through iontophoresis on a bird....think about it...research only counts if you fullfill criteria of USMLE and letters of rec.


3) i can tell you that my first 2 months of internship was hell as my hands on experience (ie...central lines, foleys, presenting a case on rounds) was inferior to a 4th year US med student doing their clinical externships. but you quickly catch up..otherwise your knowledge base is the same. its the israeli STAGE--5th year that gives you the scut skills. ths 3rd and 4th year and more lecture..less hands on..in the usa, hands on is incorporated in the 3rd and 4th year. everyone goes through this who finishes the israeli program. otherwise, your education is outstanding. you just have to make that leap during the first-second month of internship. no big deal.
the bottom line is that in the long run, all israeli graduates do very well.
inspite of the headaches you go through, your education is very good.

4) the touro and 2nd clinical years at the technion are the same..its all the same material..in my opinion, no difference. actually, there was more depth in the israeli curriculum....some depth that we didnt need for usmle, but didnt hurt.

this is what helped me survive: i made an earnest effort to learn hebrew and integrate with the israelis. this helped with social life, chatichoot etc. otherwise, you will be miserable if you guys are with each other all the time. you have to learn hebrew. i embraced the fact that i would be their for 4 years and having this attitude, i blended in. you also have to know that things will not be given to you guys on a silver platter. in us schools, there is more structure with clerkships etc. you have to do a lot on your own and of course be flexible. the ability to do things on your own....survive will make you smarter and excel after graduation.

all israeli graduates whether american, canadian, or us have done outstanding in us residencies and beyond..its just a fact. i think part of it is that we were hungry enough to go abroad.....survive in israel...think like an israeli. in the end, this is a tremendous skill set.

TechMDnion
04-21-2010, 07:20 AM
goto the website below if you want to know what is really happening at the technion

*************.blogspot.com

TechMDnion
04-21-2010, 07:23 AM
cool i am getting censored.

google "technion whistleblower" to hear what is really happening

DMcDer
08-17-2010, 01:21 PM
I thought the Israeli programs make you sign something saying that you will agree to leave the country once your education is over... is that incorrect?







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