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FormerDC
03-21-2010, 03:08 AM
At a former chiropractor with over 7 years clinical experience I can unequivocally say that the profession is dead.

Click here for proof: chirotalk.proboards3.com


This site is run by current and former DCs.

Be sure to check out the following rooms:

The Future of Chiropractic: Should Anyone Become a DC?

and

Students Considering or Attending DC Programs

EvidenceBasedDC
04-10-2010, 12:26 PM
Citing ChiroTalk is just sad.

CARICOM-MED
04-10-2010, 12:43 PM
Income comparison:
Average national average for a DC in the US is $68,000
Average national Average for a MD in the US is $120,000
Hence almost double what a DC makes......if you are contemplating based on income.....
Scope comparison:
which means the DC potential of making over 100K is there, but not typical.
ask yourself what you want to do in your future, seeing back & neck pain all the time ? typically MSK is what DC treat...

If you want to have a full scope consider MD program.
ultimately it is what you love or where your passion is......I know many DCs that love what they do, and will never switch, and I also know many that wished they went to medical school in the first place, instead of going to a 4 year DC program.

Good luck !

EvidenceBasedDC
04-12-2010, 08:37 AM
I agree with everything that UHSADOC said, with one caveat. The $68,000 average salary is a little skewed. DCs who own their practices do fairly well financially. DCs who associate (work for another DC) make between $35 and $40K. This throws off the numbers. I would NOT recommend being an associate. Most of the DCs who hire a bunch of associates are the type who give the profession a bad name. I started my own practice with very little money, and a wife who is very good at accounting. It's not that hard to do. Stick with treating musculoskeletal conditions, read a journal article everyday and stay away from any junk science that sounds like it's more marketing than fact, and chiropractic is a very rewarding career.

khiro
04-12-2010, 03:57 PM
that the numbers UHSADOC has presented can be a bit misleading for specific providers, but his general purpose is right on. that is, in most cases, the avg family md will make (or should make) at least twice as much as the avg chiro. not that he cared to go into the reasons for this, and there are plenty, it is important to note the difference in income. times that difference by 20 or 25 years of practice and you will get a pile of muh-lah. avg fam doc in my little town is making 250 to 300k per year; working their a$$e$ off (5 days a week plus saturdays, and one even goes to the nursing homes at 4 am) b/c they have built in this high level of debt to pay off (one is going through multiple real estate foreclosures of his beach condos). but with some brains and hard work, the financial rewards for family mds is still there (better have an understanding spouse though, b/c with the after hour calls life is no vacation for the family md).

khiro

EvidenceBasedDC
04-14-2010, 03:42 PM
Better have an understanding wife is right! That was one of my considerations when I chose chiropractic school instead of med school. I was working for a major medical school in the northeast at the time, and was preparing to take the MCAT. More than one of the residents in my department told me not to do it. Several had gotten divorced since beginning their residencies. Those hours can put significant strain on relationships. It's just one more thing to consider.

AgActual
04-29-2010, 01:36 PM
Better have an understanding wife is right! That was one of my considerations when I chose chiropractic school instead of med school. I was working for a major medical school in the northeast at the time, and was preparing to take the MCAT. More than one of the residents in my department told me not to do it. Several had gotten divorced since beginning their residencies. Those hours can put significant strain on relationships. It's just one more thing to consider.

Looks like you and I have a lot in common. The only difference is that I was a clinical psychology student and actually spent time in grad school for it. When I started grad school, all of my professors were no longer full time university staff. Instead they were therapists that had their own practices and taught on the side. Everyone had the same story. They worked 6 days a week, 12 hours a day, and could barely make more than $60,000 a year. Oh and clinical psychology appears to be a dying field.

I really had to think about if it was worth the stress on myself, as well as for my significant other. In the end, i dropped out and went with a career where the average work week is 40 hours, the pay is better, and I won't drop dead from stress at the age of 60.

canuckdc
04-29-2010, 09:09 PM
Income comparison:
Average national average for a DC in the US is $68,000
must be a newbie or not very skilled
Average national Average for a MD in the US is $120,000
I would say the average chiro makes far more than this, especially when you gross up their income. I worked in Europe for 10 years and 120k Euro or pound would be a very mediocre wage for a chiro
Hence almost double what a DC makes......if you are contemplating based on income.....
Scope comparison:
which means the DC potential of making over 100K is there, but not typical.
Again Europe and Canada there is very good potential of making far more than a 100k
ask yourself what you want to do in your future, seeing back & neck pain all the time ? typically MSK is what DC treat...
This is very much agreed and probably the number one reason a chiro would or should consider the MD path. boredom after many years of back and neck pain has made me take the plunge. It has served me well over the years, being one of the best treatments for MSK problems

I must say we are well trained and know our stuff when it does come to neck and backs, most MD's other than our ortho friends have no clue

If you want to have a full scope consider MD program.
ultimately it is what you love or where your passion is......I know many DCs that love what they do, and will never switch, and I also know many that wished they went to medical school in the first place, instead of going to a 4 year DC program.

Good luck !
Agreed, most of my DC colleagues are very content with being a chiro, having a great standard of life, low stress with great hours and would never have considered medical school as an option

MissD
04-29-2010, 09:41 PM
I don't really understand why DC's salary is less than $70,000 whereas geriatric Nurses easily make between $80,00 to $90,000 with an average work week of 40-48 hours or so.

Good luck to DC students

AgActual
05-01-2010, 02:49 PM
ask yourself what you want to do in your future, seeing back & neck pain all the time ? typically MSK is what DC treat...

That might be the case but isn't that really true of any health care field? If you are a dentist, you will spend most of your days filling cavities and cleaning people's teeth. If you are an optometrist, you will spend a great deal of time prescribing glasses. If you are a therapist, 90% of your clients will be seeing you for depression and anxiety. And even medicine has those problems. From what I hear, if you become an MD, much of your day will be spent treating ear infections, high blood pressure, and a few other conditions.

I can't think of any health care field that is immune from becoming highly repetitive.

AgActual
05-01-2010, 03:09 PM
don't really understand why DC's salary is less than $70,000 It seems to depend on where you look. I have seen people claiming the average it is as low as about $40,000 a year and others that show it closer to $160,000 a year. Averages can be misleading. I have gone through an unholy number of statistics and research courses and I can tell you averages are not as straight forward as people think. And unless we are given the methodology of how they found these numbers (did they include semi-retired chiropractors, those that work part time, those who are unemployed, those working in towns with 5 people, those who are 1st year associates) and what the standard deviation is, having the average is quite useless. Also it depends on how much the source is trying to convince people to get into the field or dissuade them from doing so. I have heard some pretty extreme claims from both sides, everything from chiropractors are going to replace MD's in a few years to 70% of chiropractic graduates drop out of the field in their first year. Finding accurate info about chiropractic is like walking through a mine field.

Anyway, the numbers i tend to work with are the national distributions of full time chiropractors, which puts the bottom 10% making around $60,000 a year, the median 25% making around $115k, and the top 10% making about $230k a year. That was from salary.com and the Princeton Review, which seem impartial enough.

EvidenceBasedDC
05-03-2010, 09:50 AM
Excellent point.

EvidenceBasedDC
05-06-2010, 08:11 AM
At a former chiropractor with over 7 years clinical experience I can unequivocally say that the profession is dead.

Click here for proof: chirotalk.proboards3.com


This site is run by current and former DCs.

Be sure to check out the following rooms:

The Future of Chiropractic: Should Anyone Become a DC?

and

Students Considering or Attending DC Programs


I find the one post by FormerDC very telling, not to mention dishonest. Chirotalk is a website run by a retired psychiatrist named Stephen Barrett, not "current and former DCs". It is part of his "Quackwatch" website. They are well known for spamming message boards with their biased views. As near as anyone can tell Barrett is a grouch who operates a website out of his basement (that is confirmed) and hates chiropractic for some unknown reason. He isn't above misrepresentation in his quest to bash all things chiro. He collects DCs who have failed at running a business such as Alan Botnick and gives them a forum to complain about it, then passes this off as the norm.

AgActual
05-06-2010, 11:59 AM
I find the one post by FormerDC very telling, not to mention dishonest. Chirotalk is a website run by a retired psychiatrist named Stephen Barrett, not "current and former DCs". It is part of his "Quackwatch" website. They are well known for spamming message boards with their biased views. As near as anyone can tell Barrett is a grouch who operates a website out of his basement (that is confirmed) and hates chiropractic for some unknown reason. He isn't above misrepresentation in his quest to bash all things chiro. He collects DCs who have failed at running a business such as Alan Botnick and gives them a forum to complain about it, then passes this off as the norm.

Chirotalk is also run by Barret? Are you sure you aren't thinking of chirobase?

EvidenceBasedDC
05-17-2010, 09:03 AM
Chirotalk is also run by Barret? Are you sure you aren't thinking of chirobase?

Chirotalk is one of the many heads of the hydra that is Stephen Barrett. If you look at the forums there, most are started by a DC named Alan Botnick who has been associated with Barrett since the beginning. Botnick presents himself as an authority on chiropractic and why it's a bad thing. The real story on this guy is that he graduated from what is regarded as one of the worst chiro schools in the country and went belly up after almost two whole years in practice, he has never published a paper or made any contributions to the chiropractic profession other than serving as a warning to others in his own mind. Poor business skills are no reason to damn an entire profession. Now he makes his living by selling sour grapes on the internet. How he managed to torpedo his career that early on I'll never understand. Personally speaking, I am a terrible businessman and suceed in spite of myself, in an economically disadvantaged area, in rural upstate NY, the most over-regulated state in the country with the narrowest scope of practice! You can't find a healthcare related website that these clowns don't open an account on and post a one time only antichiro thread complete with link to one of their many websites and disappear, never to post again.

AgActual
05-17-2010, 11:22 AM
Chirotalk is one of the many heads of the hydra that is Stephen BarrettLooks like you are right. I couldn't necessarily find evidence that Barrett owns chirotalk but it is clear two websites are obviously very closely aligned. After a quick you can find they do have a chirotalk.com link on chirobase and vice versa. And I believe that Botnick's story is posted as one of the articles on chirobase.

That is a bit disappointing. Chirobase is clearly biased but I also felt they had some good points. However, chirotalk is just out there. I have read posts were the members of that site claimed that chiropractic is a major recruiting tool of Scientology, that a vast majority of chiropractors fail and end up working in fast food jobs, and that some chiropractors encourage cannibalism. I went to that site several times over the last few years and found nothing of value.

I may have to rethink spending anymore time on chirobase if they are allied with chirotalk.

EvidenceBasedDC
05-17-2010, 02:00 PM
I wish I knew what Barrett's problem is. A psychiatrist who is obsessed with chiropractic makes about as much sense as a chiropractor who is obsessed with psychiatry. These guys have lost a slew of defamation and lible suits lately, with a harassment (stalking) charge thrown in for good measure.

khiro
05-17-2010, 04:38 PM
i actually had to deal with someone like barrett. a neurologist who absolutely hated chiros, never missed an opportunity to blast the chiro profession to his patients, and also had the office policy of not taking a patient that was under the care of a DC, or that thought highly of the chiropractic profession. now we all know how differently DCs practice, and i guess we all think that we are "doing it right", but this guy didn't care. he didn't really have a beef with any specific DC. his hatred was so great that it included the whole profession. thankfully he retired and i haven't had to deal with him. he did his neurology residency in 1964 at university of miami/jackson hospital, miami florida. incidently to that, i have had nothing but a great relationship with 2 neurosurgeons from miami/jackson, one who was there in 1964, and the other 2 decades later. so i don't have a clue as to what makes some of these docs hate the whole profession to the extent of really wanting all chiros to be unlicensed and the profession to become extinct. i have deep concerns for how the profession does things, but barrett throws decency and tact out the window.

AgActual
05-17-2010, 10:51 PM
i don't have a clue as to what makes some of these docs hate the whole profession I have been trying to figure that one out for awhile now. The hatred some have towards this field seem to be genuine vindictive rage. I have had a few conversations with med students and medical doctors about chiropractic and some of those people seem like they would have stabbed me if they had the chance. They got so angry so fast, all civility flew out the window.

To be fair to the other health care professionals, most MD's and DO's seem to be fairly neutral towards chiropractic. They have some good things to say and some misgivings but for the most part, they don't really concern themselves with what we are doing. Really I find that less experienced people, such as interns, med students, and pre-med students are the most outraged by chiropractic. Some have legitimate complaints, some seem to have an outdated view of the profession, and some just have a blind hatred of all things chiropractic.

Its a shame but most seem to grow out of it. However, a few just can't let go of their anger and see that their are good, honest, knowledgeable chiropractors out there.

EvidenceBasedDC
05-26-2010, 12:48 PM
Most of the MDs in my area are great. If I might make a recommendation as an alternative to chirobase, check out chiroevidence dot com this organization is everything that is right with chiropractic with none of the **. I have no connection to them, but I am a great admirer of their work. Cheryl Hawk is a legend when it comes to evidence based chiropractic.

AgActual
06-10-2010, 02:47 PM
You can't find a healthcare related website that these clowns don't open an account on and post a one time only antichiro thread complete with link to one of their many websites and disappear, never to post again. I was just rereading this thread and noticed this point, which seems to have proved itself. The guy who started this thread made one post in mid march and hasn't been seen since. I think it is clear the guy had no interest in having any sort of discussion. Just running around the internet doing quick hit and run posts chiropractic related boards with some rather extreme claims and then vanishing. It seems like people might listen a little more if they would actually stuck around for more than 5 minutes to discuss things instead of using these guerrilla tactics to attack the field.

I get the feeling the people over at chirotalk are rather cynical and bitter, and likely not the least bit interested in an actual constructive debate.







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