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defdena
06-03-2009, 07:59 PM
Hello everyone!,

I have just received admission from the University of Queensland in Australia and now I am in the dilemma of whether I should go or not. Currently I am a second year student of Electrical Engineering (after completing my bachelor of Health Sciences) in Canada.

After reading several posts regarding the position of Australian med school grads, I have concluded that it is going to cost me over 300k (after factoring in the interests on loans and living expenses for the duration of my stay there). This, adding to the fact that it would be ridiculously hard to secure a residency position in Aus/Can/US/UK.

My questions are as follows (I know these questions are vague and individual-specific, so please bear with me):

1. On average, how long would it be before I am debt free? I have a feeling that I'll be over 40 before I even start making money (My age is 23 now, assume maximum loan payback per year, family medicine).

2. How hard is it *really* to get a spot on residency (or internship in Australia):
2(a): In Australia
2(b): In Canada
2(c): In US
2(d): In UK


Also, if there are any graduates/current students from UQ, please PM me. I would like to have some questions/concerns answered.

Cheers!

dadoc
06-04-2009, 03:36 AM
Hello everyone!,

I have just received admission from the University of Queensland in Australia and now I am in the dilemma of whether I should go or not. Currently I am a second year student of Electrical Engineering (after completing my bachelor of Health Sciences) in Canada.

After reading several posts regarding the position of Australian med school grads, I have concluded that it is going to cost me over 300k (after factoring in the interests on loans and living expenses for the duration of my stay there). This, adding to the fact that it would be ridiculously hard to secure a residency position in Aus/Can/US/UK.

My questions are as follows (I know these questions are vague and individual-specific, so please bear with me):

1. On average, how long would it be before I am debt free? I have a feeling that I'll be over 40 before I even start making money (My age is 23 now, assume maximum loan payback per year, family medicine).

2. How hard is it *really* to get a spot on residency (or internship in Australia):
2(a): In Australia
2(b): In Canada
2(c): In US
2(d): In UK


Also, if there are any graduates/current students from UQ, please PM me. I would like to have some questions/concerns answered.

Cheers!
Im an ex-student from UQ:eek:
If you do go, watch out for the path lecturer, she is hopeless. But anyways..

This is what I know.
Firstly, there are more students being produced than residency spots, so it is competitive. With that said there is no equalizing exam, so, the chance of you, as an international student being selected for residency is maybe 70-90%, depending on how high your grades are and how well you perfom during clinicals.

Now, the only countries that recognize an Australian Medical degree are New Zealand and South Africa. However, the US, Canada and the UK do not. If you want to go back to Canada, I suggest look at Irish schools as statistically they are the highest portion of IMGs in Canada. The Australian system will not prepare you in any way for the MCCQE and its curricculum is vastly different from what I have seen with Canadian med schools.

At UQ you will only have 1 year basic sciences. It seems rushed and they jump all over the place with information. Dont expect to be prepared for the USMLE. USMLE takers generally have 2 years basic science experience, you wont have that luxury. Should you do well, you will still be considered an IMG and thrown in with the others. Now, this is how the US picks up international students:
US-IMGs > US-system IMGs > All others
You would have more chance of getting into a US residency if you did your Med school in, lets say the Caribbean, because it is tailored to the US system.

Dont even bother with the UK. The Aussie degree is not recognized and they will give you hell.

So all in all.
If you want to practice in Canada - Try to stay in Canada, or go to Irish school.

If you want to go to the US - Canadian med school, then try Caribb.

If you want to go live in Australia, the go to Aus.

As for money, the average intern makes about 40k and you will amke about 60k in your resident years. Since Australia is socialized medicine, the only people who make decent money are the high risk surgeons and elective surgeons, such as plastics and Orthos, and I garuntee you will never, ever, ever be given a spot in those. Also, the tax is insanely high, so dont expect to pay off your loans for about 7-8 years.

Edit: If i had to give you an aribtary number for all, assuming you have top grades and scores-

Aus - 85%
US - 30%
Canada - 20%
UK - <10%

redshifteffect
06-07-2009, 03:06 AM
Okay I'm going to have to call out a bit of the inaccuracies in the above thread.

First of all I graduated from Australia (but not UQ) and residents make a lot more then 40k. The salary in Australia is calculated on a "base salary" which ranges from 50-60k in most states, but then you are given overtime on this as well. There is rostered overtime (which is compulsory) and unrostered overtime...this can easily add 30-40k to your salary. However it's very varied and really depends on your state and hospital.

As for socialised medicine not making any money that's not true either.

TAke a look at some of the locum jobs for GP and the noted wages...
I can't post them..but look up Ochre recruitment on google.

The same site has pay for permenant salaries as well. But as a rule of thumb as a GP working for someone else you can expect to make 200-250k...This is based on experience working in the country and looking for these sorts of jobs...not just speculation.

Then take a look at RRIPS (do a google search) if you're willing to go to a rural area you can make a lot of money on top of your salary for doing the same job. This is paid out by the "socialised" government. BTW this is money during your training, there's even more when you are finished your GP training.

Finally there are a lot of ways to make money in Australias private system even when working. You can locum at an ED department (100-200/hr) or you can do private assisting...

Anyway if you want the real scoop on Australia let me know. I'm actually working here as a doctor and know the system pretty well.

Also there are many ways to get back to Canada..I don't have time to list them all but most provinces (not Ontario) WILL recognise an FRACGP without any exam (initially). You will have to write the MCCEE,QE1,QE2 eventually but in a place like Saskatchewan you can start working from day 1.

So in my book it makes more sense to get paid better in Australia, work fewer hours while training and then jump back to Canada (if you really want to go back). This is a lot LESS riskier then taking your chances with CaRMs. BTW CaRMS does not recognise an Irish degree either...and so you are on equal grounds with Irish grads, but you probably spent less on your degree because of the higher cost of tuition in Ireland.

*Edit* BTW I have received job offers in Saskatchewan as a GP. You don't even need to be an Australian GP to get them, all you need to do is 1 year of Internship and 1 year as an RMO. You have to have the right rotations though (Paeds, O&G, Emerg, Gen Surg, Gen Med, and Psych) but you can qualify as a GP in Sask, Manitoba, Alberta and Rural BC (easily). You then write the EE, QE1, QE2 within 5 years (or 7 for Manitoba) and you are fully licensed in the above provinces. You will be required to get your CFPC certification before you move to Ontario, which requires 5 years of GP experience, 2 of which must be in Canada. The job offers I got in Canada were about 3/4 of what I was making as an Intern! (So that's as a trainee vs what I would get as a fully qualified doctor). Overhead costs for GP in Canada in general are higher as well, due to the different structures of GP practices in both countries. Rural medicine in Australia is also generally compensated much better by the "socialised" Austrailan government with much higher sign on bonuses and more generous leave benefits.

In the US the GP system is in shatters. Overhead is high, mal practice insurance is much higher and the rate of litigation is through the roof. I've actually spent a considerable time in General practice in all three countries to see where I'd want to end up, and working in the US was easily the worst. You are dictated how to practice by the HMOs, so if you want to prescribe a certain medication to a patient and the HMO don't cover it, the patient essentially goes without! HMOs also dicated which tests you could and couldn't order, and so whatever you learned in medical school was essentially a waste of time. You are not a doctor under an HMO but just a puppet.

In the US the system in entirely different then in 'socialised' countries, where everyone goes to a GP for a referral to a specialist (if warranted). In the US many people can simply present to the specialist of choice (depending on their HMO of course) and the general perception is that GPs are for "poor people" (I realise that there are exceptions). Most of the richer clientele present themselves directly to the specialist...so if they have chest pain they'll go straight to the Cardiologist. This is important because most of the patients that come to GPs essentially can't afford your services. You are then in the awkward position of treating someone who you know will never be able to pay. At least in "socalised" medicine the government pays, so even if the patient doesn't have private insurance or can't make a co-payment you can still recover some sort of fee for service.

Getting money from HMOs is another huge hassle. They simply refuse payments because they know the hassle you go through trying to chase up money from them costs you more then the bill. So in many cases you just drop the $25 or $50 that you bill them. You essentially lose 25% (on average) of your billings to HMOs and you have to hire someone full time just to chase up these billings. That's a lot more overhead to your practice then in any other country, so your net profit at the end of the day is much less. When you throw in the higher mal practice insurance you make very little....that is why GP in the US is not very popular with the local grads. Anyone who's spent even a day or two there will see how much hassle non-socalised medicine really is. 80% of your day is spent being a businessperson while 20% is actually devoted to medicine.

redshifteffect
06-08-2009, 06:35 AM
As for Australian schools not preparing you for the MCCEE/QE1 that's not true either. The curriculum of many Australian schools is actually similar to Canadian schools. Many students use Toronto Notes to study for their final written exams. The MCCQE2 is basically the same OSCE exam that most students take in their final year of med school. What is true is that many Post-grad Australian schools (ie where Australians go if they can't get into undergrad medical schools) do not prepare you well for the USMLE 1.

The clinical content at most post-grad schools is more then adequate for Step 2.

UQ is especially bad at preparing you for the USMLE 1 and most people who do well on it (from UQ) put in a significant amount of self-study to get through it. Keep in mind that this school next year will have 500+ students!

However the purpose of all Australian schools is (first and foremost) to prepare students for working in Australia. The American and Australian systems are very different, and in fact the expectations for graduates of both systems are vastly different as well. If you come to Australia and expect to be spoon-fed USMLE material you will be disappointed. If that is what you expect you are better off looking at the undergrad schools which still have a more traditional curriculum and are more similar to US schools.

Another point is that there are plenty of schools in the US where they have even less basic sciences teaching (Duke comes to mind) then places like UQ. The reason you don't hear about poor pass rates or complaining is that the caliber of the students is much better, and so they are either used to self-study or are intelligent enough to need minimal preperation to pass the USMLE. An Ivy league school like Duke is attracting the best and brightest of the US, a school like UQ in general is attracting subpar students that couldn't get into the US. Keep this in mind, if you were subpar in your undergraduate course, nothing but hard work and effort will help you pass the USMLE. Spoon feeding is great, but how will you then cope when you graduate and become a doctor? There are plenty of specialities where you must self-study to keep uptodate with the latest knowledge to remain competitive.

defdena
06-11-2009, 07:45 PM
Thanks for the replies guys :) Really helped me clarify some of my questions.

Cheers!

redshifteffect
06-27-2009, 04:04 AM
A final point re: taxes. Actually tax rates in Canada, US and Australia are remarkably similar. In the US (at least at the tax brackets/salaries we're talking about for doctors) you have typically three taxes, federal, state and county. In the desirable parts of the US (New York, California) you have 8-9% state, and 1% county which put you on par with Australia! Sure there are parts of the US like Nevada where you have no state income tax but these are in general less desirable places to reside. There is also another advantage to working as a public doctor in Australia while training which is "salary packaging". Through this system a lot of expenses (like meals, rent, internet bills, mobile phone bills etc, mobile phone purchases) are tax deductible. This ends up saving me a lot of taxes every year, and the ironic thing is that I pay less taxes in Australia then a friend in New York state who is working as a resident (35k/annum) and who makes a substantial amount less then I do.

In the US of course you get very little for your taxes (unless you count the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan as a benefit) whereas in Canada and Australia you get good health care, in Oz you also get subsidized pharmaceuticals (through the PBS) as well as cheap University (interest free) through HECS, Youth allowance, generous welfare etc.

You can easily pay your loans back in <5 years if you go the GP route, go to a rural/regional area and get RRIPS. If you can't get into a surgical training program you can also spend a year or two doing unaccredited surgical jobs, doing surgical assisting or even pure locuming at a private or even public emergency department (mainly again in regional/rural towns) but some will be in large metropolitan areas. The incomes you can get for these types of jobs can easily be 200k+/annum while training, allowing you to pay back a substantial amount even while training. You will never be able to do this in the US, since a residents salary is about 30-40k US/annum. Anyone who didn't know about this either had their head stuck in the sand, or wasn't really doing research about ways to make money while training.

redshifteffect
06-30-2009, 02:24 AM
I realise that accurate (and truthful) info is a secondary use of this board, but here you go, here's a freebie from me:

Well since this site won't let me post links you can look it up on the CFPC site yourself.

FRACGP now recognised by the CFPC so you can now return directly to the tough provinces like Ontario as a GP. Now there's no need to backdoor in Sask/Manitoba/Newfoundland for a few years to make up CFPC requirements (which Ontario needs for full recognition).

Marvcap
06-30-2009, 10:13 PM
Hey, I'm Canadian student thinking of queensland too, but I want to come back to canada.

redshifteffect, you mentioned that its risk to try for Carms after I got my UQ degree instead of doing an australian internship, why is that?

Can't I just apply for both internships and hope i get one?

Also, how difficult would u say it is to get an aussie internship? I believe there are more students than residency spots, so what are the chances?

And what happens to those who dont get any internship? what can they do for a year?

thanks

redshifteffect
07-01-2009, 02:12 AM
Hey, I'm Canadian student thinking of queensland too, but I want to come back to canada.

redshifteffect, you mentioned that its risk to try for Carms after I got my UQ degree instead of doing an australian internship, why is that?

Can't I just apply for both internships and hope i get one?

Also, how difficult would u say it is to get an aussie internship? I believe there are more students than residency spots, so what are the chances?

And what happens to those who dont get any internship? what can they do for a year?

thanks

Risky in the sense that if you only aim for CaRMS there is a high probablity you could end up jobless. Also you could apply for both but the jobs don't start at the same time, so you'll have to accept one or the other (assuming you do eventually get both).

How long is a piece of string? No one can answer that question, it's been discussed many times though including some potential programs the government/states are trying to increase internship spots. The government has already increased GP training spots by 200 places (25%) in only two years, Canada has barely been able to increase it in the last several years. So there is hope, but I don't want to mislead you into thinking you are guaranteed a job, because you aren't.

You are SOL essentially, unless you get an internship in Malaysia or Singapore or New Zealand. Keep in mind that you need an internship to get a PR. If you don't secure that PR you will never be on equal footing with other applicants for residency jobs.

WannaBdoc25
07-01-2009, 05:10 AM
what about the university of queensland, I thought they have programs to come back to the US

redshifteffect
07-01-2009, 06:02 AM
what about the university of queensland, I thought they have programs to come back to the US

Do you mean the UQ-Oschner program? It's not much different then a Caribbean program. 2 years basic sciences in Australia, and then 2 years in a private US hospital for clinical medicine. This doesn't mean you will go back to the US though, since you are still an IMG and have a disadvantage when applying for jobs. You should also be aware that unlike (the top) caribbean programs UQ does not focus extensively on USMLE material, so there is going to be a lot of self study involved on your part. You can't do your clinicals in the US without first having passed step 1.

Marvcap
07-03-2009, 02:05 PM
by the way redshift, how about the scenario if, as a Canadian, I get an internship in Australia after graduating from Queensland, I would try to come back to Canada. What would be the process there?

I'm basically unsure of how the ROS agreements work. I believe its 1-3 years of working at a rural area with a fixed lower pay (probably wrong on this). Are they always mandatory for coming back as an IMG into Carms or coming back after an Australian internship)

Thanks for being active on this board by the way, its a great help

redshifteffect
07-04-2009, 12:13 AM
Okay internship is just a year, and basically it allows you to become a fully registered doctor within Australia allowing you to apply for your PR. The PR is needed so that when you apply for jobs in Oz you are on equal footing with others. It looks good on your CV as well, and will make you more competitive then fresh graduates from medical school if you apply for CaRMs, but it still won't guarantee you a job in Canada.

ROS in Canada? If that's what you're talking about then it's 1=1 so if you do a 5 year Anaesthesiology residency program you will owe the government 5 years of rural service in an area they choose. Almost all the provinces have these now. Last I checked Manitoba didn't, but they will have one by the time you graduate. Rural areas in Canada are very isolating because you could literally have a road blocked through winter or a lack of affordable flights allowing you to escape to big cities. I've worked in Rural areas in Australia and Canada, and I find it easier in Oz cities.

Look my personal advice would be that if you get into a training program in Oz that's the safest way to go. Since now every single residency program from Australia is recognised (now even the CFPC recognises the FRACGP) by Canada, and most provinces make it fairly easy for you to work there with Australian training, it makes more sense to do your training in Australia.

Two things to consider, if you apply to Canada or the US you will be applying as an IMG. That means that many training programs will be out of your reach (Radiology, Anaesthesiology, Surgery etc.) which tend to go mainly to local graduates. Now it's not impossible to get these jobs, but you will have to have either really good scores on the USMLE, or in the case of CaRMs have some connections. In Australia, with a PR you will be on equal footing with local graduates. Now that doesn't mean jobs in Australia are easy to get either, or that anything's guaranteed. In fact those programs are just as competitive in Australia as in North America. However you at least will not be discriminated against just because you didn't graduate from Canada/US as you will be as an IMG in either country.

The second thing to consider is the high pay while training. I detailed in another thread the base salary + overtime that you would get in many hospitals. If you want to make even more money you could go to a regional/rural area where there is even more overtime available and other things you could do. Remember in Australia even with rostered overtime you will be working probably 50/hrs a week for 80-100k in most states. In Canada/US you will be working 80+ hours in most residency training programs for 35-40k/annum. If you don't mind working the 80 hours you would have worked in the US you could potentially be clearing 200k in Oz even without being on any training program. This makes a big difference when it comes to paying loans. Minimum repayments with private loans on a principle of 200k is at least $1000/month and interest is still accumulating on that. So the time you spend doing residency in North America means you would have accumulated a significant amount of interest on your loan because you aren't going to be able to make any huge payments towards your principle.

The main downside for Australia is that after graduation you do not apply directly into a training program. You apply to Internship, and then after that some training programs are available to you (Pathology, GP, Emergency Medicine and a few others), the remainer require a further year as a "resident". However even after completing this year, there is no guarantee that you will get into the training program of choice. At least in the US (unless you apply to a transitional year) if you don't get in, you know from day 1, and you can move on with your life (or you will quite literally starve since you won't have a dime of income). In Oz the hope/generally better training conditions keep people taking unaccredited jobs (ie you do the same job but aren't in a training program) or as residents year after year in the hopes that will get into the more competitive training programs (like certain types of Surgery, though General Surgery isn't too difficult to get into). Some eventually do, but many do not. This is akin to the desperate IMGs in the US who do transitional years over and over again in the hopes they will match into Surgery, when many will not.

So each system has it's pros/cons but I suppose for the average Canadian CaRMs is a huge risk. If you look at the match data that CaRMs publishes the match rate for IMGs (regardless of where your degree is from) is between 5-15%. In fact you actually have a better chance of getting into a Canadian medical school (~25%) then you do for CaRMs. Since most of you can't do that (hence you are on this forum) I wouldn't hold my breath that you are going to have much better luck with CaRMs. The added pressure of a 250k + loan and accumulating interest would just make relying on CaRMs even more risky.

Marvcap
07-15-2009, 03:41 PM
Alright thanks. I'll take all that into consideration.

Also, I have been doing some more research, and I have been seeing conflicting reports as to whether i would have to take the 3 MCQEE Tests after I had completed the 3 USMLE's for ONTARIO. It says on the official site that the USMLE transfers, but people are saying you have to take the MCqee tests eventually anyway, is this true?

And considering between St. George vs Queensland. Letsay i get a US residency from st. george, or I get a aussie residency after queensland. In both cases I have passed the USMLE. Does it matter which school I went to when trying to get a licence in Ontario? it seems the queensland degree is more respected, but St. George seems to offer a better shot at US residencies (99% supposedly).

Thanks, oh and btw, you mentioned you graduated from Australia; are you now working as a doctor in Canada?

dadoc
07-16-2009, 07:45 AM
Queensland degree more respected? LOL?

Its not, and getting an Australian degree wont really give you an edge at all. All factors are considered before the place of schooling.

St George gets good US placements because of the rotations and because their curriculum is geared towards the USMLE. With an Australian curriculum alone, you wont stand a snowballs chance in hell of passing. Your going to have to work it completely solo.

UQ is only known because of its research. Its SOM is garbage, and same could be said for alot of other universities. Dont gamble your career on your univeristy, unless it directly affects you.

redshifteffect
07-16-2009, 10:19 AM
I wouldn't trust Ontario too much, they have said in the past that they would recognise the USMLE, but from what my friends have seen they have still been required to write the MCCQEs.

Now this may change in the future since it seems Ontario is genuinely interested in hiring overseas doctors primarily from Western countries (Australia/US etc.) but there are still a lot of hurdles. For example Internal Medicine in the US is 3 years, vs. 4 in Canada and this has made it difficult for US trained physicians to get jobs in certain specialties. So before you choose your training program (esp. if you want to do it in the US) you are better off checking with Ontario what their requirements are.

*Edit*

As for Ontario caring about the school you graduated from, no they don't care. I'm still confused why do you need the USMLE if you graduate from Australia, and do Australian residency?

If you do a residency in Australia the USMLE is not only not required but not recognized.

Marvcap
07-18-2009, 01:40 PM
Yeah i figured aussie wouldnt need USMLe, but I'm assuming that if I were to go to UQ, I wouldnt put all my eggs in one basket and apply for internships at all Australian, Canadian, and US.

As for the respect part - Australia should have more so than Carrib, especally considering they have real interships that are recognized in Canada, while st. George is purely a school of medicine and outsources its internships. But I do agree it seems that st. george's 99% track record of getting residencies in the states is impressive.

Also my issue with going to Caribbean schools is that I know someone who is at the American University of Carribean Medicine, and yes she does get electives in the states, but it seems more difficult for them. She is currently late 1 year right now because of this problem (I believe she's in 4th year but spent 5 years there now)

Queensland as for going solo, i believe this should become old news. Queensland officially doing a massive review of their program, and more basic sciences, especially anatomy should be added to the curriculum. So I wouldn't write it off quite yet. Queensland also offers the change to do electives in the states.

but yeah st. george vs queensland, still its a really tough choice. I do want to eventually come back to Canada, and it seems like since Carms is such a low shot, doing internships in the US or Australia seems like the best bet. Question is, which school gets the edge.

Well im hoping ur right redshift about Ontario, it should be fine considering that by the time i graduate is at least 4-5 years from now, hopefully Ontario should be very open to IMGs by then

redshifteffect
07-18-2009, 05:55 PM
Well im hoping ur right redshift about Ontario, it should be fine considering that by the time i graduate is at least 4-5 years from now, hopefully Ontario should be very open to IMGs by then

No offense but the doors can't get any wider. If you look at the post I made, there is no penalty for graduating from Australia, you get 1 to 1 recognition with Canadian grads, and here's the best part there is no return of service. I never thought Ontario would ever get this progressive.

If you are an Australian specialist you don't even need to write the RCPSC exams to be fully licensed in Ontario. Just think about that, they are saying that the Australian specialists exams are the same as the Canadian ones. Every single Canadian grad has to write the RCPSC exams, to be fully licensed in Ontario, but Australian grads do not. That is a huge deal. If you've ever practiced medicine in any country you will know that this type of reciprocity is extremely rare.

If you then throw in the RRIPS payment for Australian GP registrars you actually come out far ahead of the Canadians who go through CaRMs, and this point was even acknowledged by the recruiter.

Also your time line is off. An MD/MBBS without any training is useless. Since your chances at landing a CaRMs match in Ontario is even less likely then getting a match through CaRMs you're looking at a minimum of 8-9 years before you can step foot in Ontario, assuming you go the GP pathway. If you choose anything else, it's 10+ years.

Marvcap
07-22-2009, 08:48 PM
ok i've been doing alot of research, and yeah Australia does seem promising on that front after finishing Aussie residency. Now the only issue i believe now is the waiting to get Internships after graduating from australian med - due to mass increases in spots for med students, it looks like for my year in 2014-2015, there will be alot of IMGs, and not enough internships. News articles say the gov't is trying to increase it, but of course that's not guaranteed

Also, as far as I can tell, for Australian med there's 2 AMC exams - MQE and a clinical test. These exams are not considered equivalent to the MCQEE's or USMLEs.

This leads me to conclude that since IMGs would want to increase their shots at med (applying to Can/Aus/US) - does this mean that they would have to take all exams - 2 AMC exams, USMLE Step 1,2,3? So that would be 5 exams, wow. Or is it that you only require USMLE step 1? im really not sure.

If its true, then its quite a challenge to be in IMG from australia.

Do I have this right?

Also last thing, redshift, you mentioned that all australian specialties are equivalent according to "RCPSC Certification, Jurisdiction approved training" website

But that link says that they'll just evaluate you, and consider for you to write their exams - Doesn't that mean they make you rewrite the Cdn specialty exam to come back to Canada?

It seems for family, the "CCFP website" says the australian certification is directly equivalent to Canadian. So in this case, I think you don't have to write an exam to come back to Canada?

thanks (btw I couldnt post the links, i dont have enough posts)

redshifteffect
07-23-2009, 08:16 AM
The AMC exams are NOT for local students ONLY for those who graduated from overseas who want to practice medicine in Oz (Americans/Canadians/Indians etc.)

That's the charm of medicine in Oz, no standardised exams (USMLE, MCCEE) etc for Oz graduates.

As an Oz graduate (you are not an IMG with an Oz degree, but rather an "international" student) you have to do nothing to get a job in Oz, other then compete with locals. However for a shot at Canada or the US you will have to write the USMLE and MCCEE/QE1.

Depends on the province. Like I said Ontario no longer requires RCPSC certification for jurisdiction approved countries...however the rest will. So yes after you get Oz fellowship and you want to move to Saskatchewan (as an example) you will need to write the fellowship exams in your specialty. However you are given 3 years to do so, while enjoying conditional practice rights, and remember it's much easier to do this then to get into ANY specialty in Canada via CaRMs (and even Family medicine has a low match rate in Canada).

As for family medicine, you will only be exempted from the CFPC exam now, but you will still need the LMCC (MCCEE/QE1/QE2), which you can complete after you start working in Ontario on a conditional registration. The recruiter did say that this might also change in the future...but that is as it stands now.

Oh and one more thing, Ontario is a joke. I just found out that not even every specialty is in demand in Ontario! So you could spend a lot of time getting into extremely competitive specialities like Dermatology and then find out when attempting to return to Ontario that it's not in demand. Ya the whole doctor shortage thing is grossly exaggerated, it's only in certain fields. You can check the health force Ontario website for job listings if you'd like to confirm it.

The only in demand professions are GP, IM, Psychiatry and possibly Gen. Surg. So those are what you'd have to do to have a good chance at returning to Ontario. That's what I find so hilarious about Ontario. You compete for difficult specialities, and lets say by some miracle you manage to get a match for Radiology in Ontario. You then spend 5 years completing your residency, and when you graduate you are just as unemployed as the highschool drop out who can't get a job at Futureshop.

I only became aware of all of this in my conversations with the recruiter, and was amazed because in Oz almost all the specialties are in demand. So it looks like if your goal is to return to Ontario the range of specialties you can apply for is going to be very limited (I hope there's something on that list you like).

Good luck.

dadoc
07-23-2009, 08:20 AM
Yeah i figured aussie wouldnt need USMLe, but I'm assuming that if I were to go to UQ, I wouldnt put all my eggs in one basket and apply for internships at all Australian, Canadian, and US.

As for the respect part - Australia should have more so than Carrib, especally considering they have real interships that are recognized in Canada, while st. George is purely a school of medicine and outsources its internships. But I do agree it seems that st. george's 99% track record of getting residencies in the states is impressive.

Also my issue with going to Caribbean schools is that I know someone who is at the American University of Carribean Medicine, and yes she does get electives in the states, but it seems more difficult for them. She is currently late 1 year right now because of this problem (I believe she's in 4th year but spent 5 years there now)

Queensland as for going solo, i believe this should become old news. Queensland officially doing a massive review of their program, and more basic sciences, especially anatomy should be added to the curriculum. So I wouldn't write it off quite yet. Queensland also offers the change to do electives in the states.

but yeah st. george vs queensland, still its a really tough choice. I do want to eventually come back to Canada, and it seems like since Carms is such a low shot, doing internships in the US or Australia seems like the best bet. Question is, which school gets the edge.

Well im hoping ur right redshift about Ontario, it should be fine considering that by the time i graduate is at least 4-5 years from now, hopefully Ontario should be very open to IMGs by then

Based on that alone, I would choose SGU. If you can do a US internship and then get into Canada, then SGU is the best choice, because:
A) SGU has an amazing track record of securing positions for their students
B) Med school places have increased in Aus, yet intership positions remain the same. There have already been rejections.
C) The stats you would need to get into med school in Aus are enough to get you into low tier med or DO.
D) Queensland's university is horrible.

So even if you werent going to QLD, its still a double edged sword. If you go to a lower tier university, the chances of PGY1 decrease rapidly, especially since your an international student without PR. If you go to a higher tier (eg. USyd) the stats are ridiculously high.

Its as simple as this. If you want to practice in Aus, study in Aus. If you want to go to US or Canada, dont come Aus unless you have reason to.

dadoc
07-23-2009, 08:21 AM
I dont understand why people want to go to Canada anyway. Their healthcare system is completely backwards... 4 years PG training for FM!? Getting paid the same as a nurse in the US...

redshifteffect
07-23-2009, 09:26 AM
Actually internship spots are a worry, but if working in Canada is your goal, then Australia isn't a bad place to study. The rules are probably as relaxed as they are ever going to be (in terms of recognition of Australian training), and Australian training will at least allow you to work in Australia if you choose to remain there.

I'm no fan of the Canadian healthcare system, however remember pay in the US isn't that great when you factor in overheads, malpractice insurance etc. Also in Canada you don't have the hassle of HMOs, which is the worst part of the US healthcare system.

redshifteffect
07-23-2009, 11:34 AM
Actually Canada is 2 years PG training for FM, and the US is 3.

dadoc
07-23-2009, 05:58 PM
Are you sure? Maybe it was IM that was 4 years, but it was something ridiculous anyway.

redshifteffect
07-23-2009, 06:30 PM
Are you sure? Maybe it was IM that was 4 years, but it was something ridiculous anyway.

IM is 4 years in Canada, 3 years in the US. Not a huge difference.

Look if you want to get into this argument, then what's with the wasting of 4 years of undergraduate studies to get into Medicine?? You could literally do a business degree, take some useless pre-req courses like organic chem (which have really no use in clinical medicine) and get into medicine in the US/Canada. Most countries still have the direct highschool entry medical degree.

dadoc
07-23-2009, 10:22 PM
IM is 4 years in Canada, 3 years in the US. Not a huge difference.

Look if you want to get into this argument, then what's with the wasting of 4 years of undergraduate studies to get into Medicine?? You could literally do a business degree, take some useless pre-req courses like organic chem (which have really no use in clinical medicine) and get into medicine in the US/Canada. Most countries still have the direct highschool entry medical degree.

I dont agree with undergrad medicine, but I also think that 4 years undergrad is ridiculous. Everything you would need to now and all the prerequisites should be able to be done in 2 calender years... 4 years undergrad is way too long, but hey, what can you do.

I dont agree with the undergrad system in Australia, specifically in QLD and NSW, because thats what I know about most. I see too many underserving students get into the undergrad program. They literally fudge their way into the system by picking the easy subjects to get high marks, and the kids who chose the harder subjects, get stranded. There is absolutely no scaling system in QLD and the one in NSW is... well... Ugh. I literally know geniuses who didnt get high enough grades to even do something like pharmacy. Why? Not becuase they werent smart, but because their school curriculum is so much harder than others and they do the hardest subjects...

So, I think there should be an undergrad system. Something like USyd's combined Science/Med should be an equivalent of getting into "undergrad med". But by extending the time it takes, doesnt do any good either.

redshifteffect
07-24-2009, 08:42 AM
I dont agree with undergrad medicine, but I also think that 4 years undergrad is ridiculous. Everything you would need to now and all the prerequisites should be able to be done in 2 calender years... 4 years undergrad is way too long, but hey, what can you do.

I dont agree with the undergrad system in Australia, specifically in QLD and NSW, because thats what I know about most. I see too many underserving students get into the undergrad program. They literally fudge their way into the system by picking the easy subjects to get high marks, and the kids who chose the harder subjects, get stranded. There is absolutely no scaling system in QLD and the one in NSW is... well... Ugh. I literally know geniuses who didnt get high enough grades to even do something like pharmacy. Why? Not becuase they werent smart, but because their school curriculum is so much harder than others and they do the hardest subjects...

So, I think there should be an undergrad system. Something like USyd's combined Science/Med should be an equivalent of getting into "undergrad med". But by extending the time it takes, doesnt do any good either.

What you're describing is exactly what happens in North America. People with "easy" degrees get higher marks. At the end of the day the GPA of a business degree and engineering degree are considered equivalent, even though the engineering degree was likely more intensive.

If you don't get into highschool entry medicine at least you didn't waste 4 years with an undergrad degree that will not lead you to a job. In Australia you can then get a potentially useful undergrad degree, and try to gain entry into medicine through a post-graduate program. The system in North America is weird because it rewards people for doing things that have nothing to do with medicine so they can obtain higher GPAs.

dadoc
07-24-2009, 08:48 PM
Oh, no. If you do a non-science subject, then they take that into account and consider your Science GPA only.

Its alot to explain, but the college admissions at Brown explained it to me. Its alot harder to play the system there, than it is here, or so I assume.

Not getting into the nitty gritty, I assume we can both agree that there should be an undergrad system, but for a shorter amount of time?


The system in North America is weird because it rewards people for doing things that have nothing to do with medicine so they can obtain higher GPAs.
And I know a person who did Music, English and Maths who got into the UQ with a UAI of 99. They award ranking, not intelligence.

redshifteffect
07-25-2009, 01:22 AM
Oh, no. If you do a non-science subject, then they take that into account and consider your Science GPA only.

Its alot to explain, but the college admissions at Brown explained it to me. Its alot harder to play the system there, than it is here, or so I assume.

Not getting into the nitty gritty, I assume we can both agree that there should be an undergrad system, but for a shorter amount of time?


And I know a person who did Music, English and Maths who got into the UQ with a UAI of 99. They award ranking, not intelligence.

5 year undergrad medicine (like UTAS/Monash) is pretty good. As long as you cover all the basic sciences adequately.

I got into the old Brown "accelerated" medicine which was 6 years direct out of highschool (no longer exists) if you maintained a B average in your first two years of "undergrad" you were guaranteed a spot into medicine without an MCAT or an interview. Trust me there were a lot of ways to play the numbers.

And Brown is a pseudo Ivy league. What about the rest of the DO/MD schools out there? To them a 3.5 GPA is the same regardless of the curriculum. This is especially true in Canada. There is no difference in weighting based on the difficulty of the undergraduate degree.

claybella
08-11-2009, 10:55 AM
Thanks for the info! They were extremely useful!

cute_ayam
08-31-2009, 02:16 PM
Hey Red shift Effect,

I am currently in 4th year of Medical school in Romania. i wanted to go canada but frm your posts seems like australia is the best destination
I want to Know about the exams and all that i wud haf to sit and what and where shud i sstudy for thsi australian exam and on the top will it be possible for me to get admission in post graduate stream of cardiologist in australia?

anomorato
12-01-2009, 11:16 AM
I am a Canadian citizen with a B.S. degree... recently applied to UNSW and UWS (western sydney) for the MBBS programs....Got accepted into both, hence I am leaning more towards UWS, since its only 5 years compared to 6 of UNSW......WIth regards to returning to US or Canada, or even the overall education , which would you recommend the undgrad programs at UNSW & UWS or the post-grad program at UQ?

Tipton
12-01-2009, 11:24 AM
I don't think anyone here is going to be able to answer that for you. Maybe each school would be able to produce numbers of alumni who are now practicing in the US or Canada.(?)







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