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b2112echoes
01-08-2009, 02:36 PM
Im still an undergrad (deciding after 7 years of hell as an electrician to go to college), but have been reading about some chiropractors becoming MDs or MDs becoming DCs.

My question is how many practice integrative care, ie. using both chiropractic and osteopathic forms of treating patients?

Its something I have an interest in learning more about. Reading a few threads, its seems that some chiropractors are a bit jaded by the chiropractic profession and become an MD and thats the end. However, I know locally here (in the Pittsburgh region) of one chiropractor who attained an MD degree to expand the scope of his practice using integrative medicine- using a natural approach, chiropractic adjustments, intravenous nutrition therapy, acupuncture, prolotherapy, "bio identical" hormones, and nutritional evaluation. In other words, using the MD license to expand his capabilities to practice "integrative family medicine" in a private practice.

Any thoughts?

Chopdoc
01-11-2009, 08:50 PM
First, neither Chiropractors nor MDs are qualified or trained to perform OMM/OMT (Osteopathic manipulation).

Second, I have never met a former Chiropractor turned MD that still used or applied anything Chiropractic as far as I am aware, though I am sure they are out there. I have known some that were simply still more open to chiropractic, and those that were a bit more skeptical of it. Obviously you know one that uses it, I can't pretend to know how common or uncommon that might be.

I am from Pittsburgh myself. I know only one DC turned MD in the Pittsburgh area personally, he is an internist and uses no Chiropractic in his practice at all. He actually did my physical for admission to AUC years ago.

longchode
01-12-2009, 09:21 AM
On this website you will get a bias towards the MD. This is a site for people that want to or are becoming MD's. Look elsewhere for Chiropractic info as it is jaded here.

devildoc8404
01-12-2009, 09:32 AM
I have known a number of DCs who have become MDs or DOs, but I have never met anyone who has done the reverse. There may be a few out there, but they would be a striking minority.

MDs can perform OMM/OMT, but they must complete training in it first. Osteopathic medical schools offer CME in this, and some MDs avail themselves of the opportunity.

If you want to do any type of OMM/OMT or physical manipulation therapy as a full physician, IMHO the best route would be to look at a career as a DO. The OMM/OMT training is integrated within the medical school curriculum, and you can use it as you see fit in your practice.

azskeptic
01-12-2009, 12:16 PM
I think the most famous one is

WFC Congress 2009 (http://www.wfc.org/Website/wfc/wfcongress2009/Website.nsf/vwWebPagePreview/SpeakerBioScottHaldeman004A70A3?OpenDocument&Language=EN)

b2112echoes
01-12-2009, 02:00 PM
Thanks for the replies.

I started looking at Chiropractic after attending the University of Pittsburgh and watching my science GPA drop after two semesters in the science courses (the other classes are still high). While I still have after this semester about 40 credits to go, I hope that I can find a college where the class size is less than 200, tuition is more of a value, and their is a focus on quality of instruction.


Before wasting my money at Pitt and getting overwhelmed taking courses while working nights, I delivered drugs through a hospital Senior Care network. It was the norm, not the exception, for every resident to be on five or more prescription medications. I counted on my route 10 residents who were on more than 15 prescription medications (I actually had residents names memorized; when the nurses saw the bulk of medication bubble packs they knew exactly who it was). I delivered to eight homes, and it was my experience the more medication one was on, the worse off the resident was.

Some chiro philosophy I do believe in, Americans are too fast to take the prescription route to things that are in their control. Doctors seem to be too fast to write an Rx for the problem.

I had sleeping problems a few years ago basically because my job as an electrician really screwed up a normal healthy sleep cycle. I felt like I needed a sleep aid to get back into the cycle. The doctor did write a short Rx supply for the sleep aid, but also said sleep problems were usually depression related and wrote one for Paxil. So in 15 minutes or less she determined (without asking whether I was depressed) that I needed Paxil and subsequent visits.

I delivered to a home for catholic sisters, one who was addicted to prescription pain medication, and the medical doctor doesn't hesitate to write three different pain narcotics for an 83 year old nun with no cancer or anything else (there were patients on that many who did have bone cancer which would be justified).

I wont even begin to write about patients I used to drive home from the hospital, and how the doctors would want them to stay in the hospital for ten days (which just happened to be the exact amount of time the insurance would cover) because of back pain (which he was given a steroid injection and decided it was better for him to go home rather than stay their for ten days).

I can go on, not to say Chiro doesn't have its fair share of those who prey on people (that seems to be well discussed here and on other sites).

I guess what I am getting at is I am looking for value for my cash. Chiro seemed like a good idea as I know a few who succeeded, but thats a huge investment that doesn't seem like it would pay off. Nor would I feel comfortable moving beyond the scope of basic adjustments.

I like the idea of natural approach first, drugs second, and surgery last. I discovered Martin Gallagher through google searches who practices both. For a private practice, it seems like a good idea for both marketing and providing care. I didn't know if he was the exception or norm for chiros who become MDs or DOs.

ChiroDC
01-12-2009, 02:47 PM
Chiropractic has a great avenue of health, through the Chiropractic Adjustment. Many of my patients have responded very well to care after going through the gambit of Pain Management etc.

However, when looking at a cost/reward comparison, I think Chiropractic School is just short of highway robbery.

My current student loans are at $179,000. This is $15,000 of undergrad loans and the rest is Chiropractic tuition. I attended Palmer College at their Florida campus.

This is not to say that I'm not proud of who I am as a Chiropractor, this is to shed some light on what is a very unfortunate time for a student looking to decide his medical fate.

Despite what folks at these schools will tell you, the earning potential for Chiropractic is not close to an MD. No, I don't think Medical Doctors are swimming in money with little to no effort, but they are rewarded a bit more for their knowledge and time versus that of a Chiropractor.

Do as much information gathering as you can before you make a decision on where to do.

As far as Chiro Philosophy...beware of anyone from any one profession who is blinded by a dogmatic faith in what they do. There is a time and place for everything, including medicine and adjustments. A few years ago I completed the first 100 hours of the Philosophy diplomate at Sherman Chiropractic College. My thesis hinted at the possibility of affecting the body through alternative avenues other than spinal adjustments. I also hinted at a need to update our ancient Chiropractic Foundations, as they are based on science that is over 100 years old. I was shocked at the outrage and outright vehemence I was faced with post thesis defense. It went so far as Reggie Gold D.C. telling me I did not deserve my medal (of completion) and that I needed to turn in my Chiropractic diploma :shock:

This story was told just to lend some credence to my claim of warning concerning dogmatists of any profession.

azskeptic
01-12-2009, 02:57 PM
The sad stories I've heard of DC's being encouraged to setup screening booths at malls,etc. to build practices would make me want not to be a DC.

I personally believe in evidence based science...if you can't do something repeatedly it isn't scientific enough for me to want to pay for it. azskeptic


Chiropractic has a great avenue of health, through the Chiropractic Adjustment. Many of my patients have responded very well to care after going through the gambit of Pain Management etc.

However, when looking at a cost/reward comparison, I think Chiropractic School is just short of highway robbery.

My current student loans are at $179,000. This is $15,000 of undergrad loans and the rest is Chiropractic tuition. I attended Palmer College at their Florida campus.

This is not to say that I'm not proud of who I am as a Chiropractor, this is to shed some light on what is a very unfortunate time for a student looking to decide his medical fate.

Despite what folks at these schools will tell you, the earning potential for Chiropractic is not close to an MD. No, I don't think Medical Doctors are swimming in money with little to no effort, but they are rewarded a bit more for their knowledge and time versus that of a Chiropractor.

Do as much information gathering as you can before you make a decision on where to do.

As far as Chiro Philosophy...beware of anyone from any one profession who is blinded by a dogmatic faith in what they do. There is a time and place for everything, including medicine and adjustments. A few years ago I completed the first 100 hours of the Philosophy diplomate at Sherman Chiropractic College. My thesis hinted at the possibility of affecting the body through alternative avenues other than spinal adjustments. I also hinted at a need to update our ancient Chiropractic Foundations, as they are based on science that is over 100 years old. I was shocked at the outrage and outright vehemence I was faced with post thesis defense. It went so far as Reggie Gold D.C. telling me I did not deserve my medal (of completion) and that I needed to turn in my Chiropractic diploma :shock:

This story was told just to lend some credence to my claim of warning concerning dogmatists of any profession.

ChiroDC
01-12-2009, 03:08 PM
My first interview post D.C. school was with a Chiropractor who wanted me to be his "marketing specialist" which entailed me running a mall kiosk 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Spinal Screenings in the mall, as well as our local grocery store and Wal-Mart etc.

Very depressing interview, especially when he told me I needed to earn my keep and this is the way things are done.

They did warn me in Chiropractic school that Chiro's eat their young, so I was on the lookout for these guys.

b2112echoes
01-12-2009, 06:19 PM
There is some evidence that chiropractic can help with some health conditions. My experience from a vehicle accident and work stress proved to be helpful. My mother strained her back at work lifting heavy pop (or soda for the rest of America) and was given pain medication. She much later choose chiropractic and after two months had great improvement. I read a stat that more Americans miss work due to back pain than any other ailment (it was a while ago so can't give you a source). So I still believe there is a place for chiropractic.

Yet with this region, there are those who believe and sell the idea that you can take a vitamin and you can be cured.

While I haven't bought into the all the chiropractic ideas, I still believe we as Americans are consuming way too many prescription drugs and not taking responsibility for our health. I suppose its that overall view which attracts me to the Chiropractic field. But the scope of chiropractic is very limited and varies state by state.

I find with chiro schools and recruiters its easy to buy into the hype of running your own business, making your own schedule, making good money doing it. My own chiropractor who treated me started later in life and said it was a struggle at first but she was determined to make it work.

For my situation who still has time to figure out what to do and still have many more science classes to take to bring my GPA up (including the infamous O Chem), I will continue to weigh all possibilities. As far as income goes, I would be happy to be stable and comfortable.

Debt is my biggest fear, loans at the undergraduate level at this time are dwindling, and the idea of having over $100,000 in student loans plus more debt to start a chiropractic business might be a recipe for extreme hardship as a lot of new chiropractors face.

As far as marketing, that is everything no matter what. I know I refused to go back to the MD who was to give me Paxil for sleep, and I tend to refuse medication when possible (though I am younger 26).

There seems to be little doubt that the MD/DO route is the most stable as far as financial and career stability. Yet from my life experiences with work, family, and friends, integrative care seems to make more sense to me esp. for chronic problems.

Chopdoc
01-13-2009, 02:33 PM
MDs can perform OMM/OMT, but they must complete training in it first. Osteopathic medical schools offer CME in this, and some MDs avail themselves of the opportunity.


Indeed they can, I just didn't get into it. MD schools don't tech it and very few MDs pursue it.

Chopdoc
01-13-2009, 02:46 PM
There seems to be little doubt that the MD/DO route is the most stable as far as financial and career stability. Yet from my life experiences with work, family, and friends, integrative care seems to make more sense to me esp. for chronic problems.


If you are interested in integrative medicine then pursue it as post graduate training after the MD. It is a growing field and there are programs at some prominent university medical centers as well as less "prestigious" places.

I do take issue with the whole idea of "alternative" medicine as something other than or outside of MD medicine. We are part of a 5,000 year old profession that in fact includes all of these "alternatives". We've been there, done that. That the profession distanced itself from a great deal of this for a number of decades isn't necessarily a bad thing, and anyway the pendulum now swings back to once again embrace the "old ways".

My most sincere and well considered advice to you would be to become an MD first, a general physician, then pursue post graduate training as you like. There is no path for the Chiropractor to do this, he/she would have to go to medical school anyway to do it as they have no medical education, training, or qualifications. So skip it and do it as specialty training.

If you want to be a Chiropractor, then go to Chiropractic school. If you want to do Integrative Medicine, that is a specialty of medicine and you will need an MD for that.

b2112echoes
01-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Thanks for the comments.

I will try to bring my GPA back up after I find another university to finish my undergrad studies and will try for the MD only because the scope is so much broader.

I did look at integrative medicine briefly but will have to do more research on it. i know Andrew Weil was conducting something in Arizona, but beyond that I have to look around.







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