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amakhosidlo
11-08-2008, 11:48 PM
I've been browsing this forum for a while and I've yet to come across threads that I feel paint a reliable/consistent picture of what medical education/practice in Australia would be like. I'd really like to establish a sort of "FAQ" sticky to provide a condensed primer for US students thinking of applying to Australian schools. I'll start out with a few.
(Oh, and PLEASE don't turn this into a giant flame-war/forum for personal attack and counter-attack, I've been wading through that for a while now trying to get some real info)

1. Immigrating: Alright, say you've been admitted. Coming from the US, what else would be required of you? Educational visas? Other paperwork? I've come across "first aid" requirements. What does this entail?

2. Attending: What sort of educational backgrounds will your peers have? If an incoming student obtained bachelor's in the sciences (from a reputable American pubic institution), where can he/she expect to fall on the educational spectrum of the student body?

2. Permanent Resident status: What does it mean exactly, when should one expect to obtain it, and what is it required for?

3. Internships:
A. How hard are they for an American (or Canadian) to land? I'm familiar with the "10 year" statute, but what is it's impact (realistically) on international grads? Take GP and IM as examples.
B. How do your chances of landing an internship vary depending on whether you've chosen to serve an "area of need"?
C. What's your quality of life like as an intern? In the States, we're expected to work 80+hrs per week for a minimum of 3 years for what amounts to an avg of $11/hr USD. Should one expect similar treatment in the Australian system?

4. Practice:
A. Does the 10 year requirement apply to graduates working for an institution? (i.e can you serve as an internist at a hospital that is an approved medicare provider, or must you be approved individually as well?
B. What's your/the average practice like? Does the Australian system suffer from the same managed care/high pt. volume issues as the US?
C. In general, how are Australians as patients? (BROAD generalization, I know, but American pts are infamous for their sense of entitlement and hostility towards the medical profession, so maybe give as reasonable a generalization as possible with that model as a reference point)

Finally, what sort of a reaction does news of your national origin elicit in others (irrespective of personality)? I've seen everything on this forum from "Yankee go home" and physical assaults, to "welcome with open arms".

Alright, that's all I have. I'd encourage anyone with additional questions in this vein to post them here and maybe we could have an US transplant or two lend some clarity on the issues...

dadoc
02-18-2009, 08:51 PM
I've been browsing this forum for a while and I've yet to come across threads that I feel paint a reliable/consistent picture of what medical education/practice in Australia would be like. I'd really like to establish a sort of "FAQ" sticky to provide a condensed primer for US students thinking of applying to Australian schools. I'll start out with a few.
(Oh, and PLEASE don't turn this into a giant flame-war/forum for personal attack and counter-attack, I've been wading through that for a while now trying to get some real info)

1. Immigrating: Alright, say you've been admitted. Coming from the US, what else would be required of you? Educational visas? Other paperwork? I've come across "first aid" requirements. What does this entail?

2. Attending: What sort of educational backgrounds will your peers have? If an incoming student obtained bachelor's in the sciences (from a reputable American pubic institution), where can he/she expect to fall on the educational spectrum of the student body?

2. Permanent Resident status: What does it mean exactly, when should one expect to obtain it, and what is it required for?

3. Internships:
A. How hard are they for an American (or Canadian) to land? I'm familiar with the "10 year" statute, but what is it's impact (realistically) on international grads? Take GP and IM as examples.
B. How do your chances of landing an internship vary depending on whether you've chosen to serve an "area of need"?
C. What's your quality of life like as an intern? In the States, we're expected to work 80+hrs per week for a minimum of 3 years for what amounts to an avg of $11/hr USD. Should one expect similar treatment in the Australian system?

4. Practice:
A. Does the 10 year requirement apply to graduates working for an institution? (i.e can you serve as an internist at a hospital that is an approved medicare provider, or must you be approved individually as well?
B. What's your/the average practice like? Does the Australian system suffer from the same managed care/high pt. volume issues as the US?
C. In general, how are Australians as patients? (BROAD generalization, I know, but American pts are infamous for their sense of entitlement and hostility towards the medical profession, so maybe give as reasonable a generalization as possible with that model as a reference point)

Finally, what sort of a reaction does news of your national origin elicit in others (irrespective of personality)? I've seen everything on this forum from "Yankee go home" and physical assaults, to "welcome with open arms".

Alright, that's all I have. I'd encourage anyone with additional questions in this vein to post them here and maybe we could have an US transplant or two lend some clarity on the issues...

1. Immigrating: Your going to need an Visa. I dont know too much about this, but you can get a student Visa and then apply for Citizenship in 4 years.

2. Attending: Most of your peers will have an undergraduate degree. It may not be a science related degree, because that is not required. All that is required for the Aus students is to pass the GAMSAT. So, if you have come from a science background, you will have a huge advantage at the start. You will also have some students straight out of high school. There will be some who didnt even take biology in high school because it is not a prerequisite. A US student who has completed the required courses for a US med school, will be at advantage to about 80-90% of the group.

3. Internships:
A. There is a shortage of doctors in Australia at the moment, but it is all rural. It is going to be very, very hard for you to land an internship at a major city hospital.
B. You will need the highest marks to garuntee yourself your prefered specialization. If you get that, your chances are boosted.
C. Australia win this. Australia has a tiny patient base and therefore there isnt much work really. Average Austalian intern works 40 hours and 60 hours at the absolute max. Also, the payment is better in Aus. However, your learning experience will be less, because there are less patients.

4.
A. You must be approved individually.
B. Australia runs on a socialized system, meaning that the government controls everything pretty much. Because of that, the healthcare system is better than the states, however, your freedom and ability as a doctor are compromised, and in turn, that makes the system slower. Also, less patients.
C. Patients are all the same. Just think of US patients with accents.

Australians are generally very xenophobic, however, you wil lbe in med school, where the majority of your peers are from various backgrounds. You shouldnt have any trouble with them. What you should be worried about is the general public and also the Australian Board of Medicine, since you didnt go through the Australian system and arent Australian, they will keep a keen eye on you and if you screw up, they will jump on you like a pack of wolves to meat.

Final verdict: If you want to do medicine and practice in the US, then definately stay in the US. The second best option is the Carribbean, because the Carribbean schools specifically train you for the USMLE, whereas the Australia system does not train you for it at all. If you want to live in Australia, I suggest you visit first, have a taste of the culture then choose. If you want to live in Aus, do NOT go to a US or Carrib. med school.

Goodluck

WendyMBBS
03-08-2009, 01:39 AM
I do not go to an Australian medical school I am based in Ireland. I have a best friend in Australia studying there. Let me warn you that the basic science education is very light, its basically a teach yourself degree in the first 2 years. You will have to teach yourself Microbiology, Immunology, and Biochemistry in order to have the science background necessary to pass the USMLE Step 1. If you are a disciplined person this is not much of an issue. Australian schools do not cater for US rejects like other offshore schools, in fact you will need a 30 or better on your MCAT to get into medical school there, this is the same where I am in Ireland and actually Irish schools are even harder to get admission to than those in Australia. People who get into Aussie schools can probably get into a US school. I would saying going to Australia will not be much of an issue unless you plan to complete a very competitive residency when you go back to the US. If you are interested in Family Practice, Internal Medicine, Peds, Psychiatry, etc, this will not be an issue.

As far as Australians being xenophobic, there are racist Aussies but realistically its not much worse than what is in North America. As far as being an international student going into an internship and working in Australia, this is really not much of an issue.

dadoc
03-08-2009, 04:09 AM
I do not go to an Australian medical school I am based in Ireland. I have a best friend in Australia studying there. Let me warn you that the basic science education is very light, its basically a teach yourself degree in the first 2 years. You will have to teach yourself Microbiology, Immunology, and Biochemistry in order to have the science background necessary to pass the USMLE Step 1. If you are a disciplined person this is not much of an issue. Australian schools do not cater for US rejects like other offshore schools, in fact you will need a 30 or better on your MCAT to get into medical school there, this is the same where I am in Ireland and actually Irish schools are even harder to get admission to than those in Australia. People who get into Aussie schools can probably get into a US school. I would saying going to Australia will not be much of an issue unless you plan to complete a very competitive residency when you go back to the US. If you are interested in Family Practice, Internal Medicine, Peds, Psychiatry, etc, this will not be an issue.

As far as Australians being xenophobic, there are racist Aussies but realistically its not much worse than what is in North America. As far as being an international student going into an internship and working in Australia, this is really not much of an issue.

USMLE pass rates from students in Australia are pretty low. 62% or so for first attempt on STEP 1. The Basic Sciences is very light, but since they have an extra 2-3 year post-grad training, they think that makes up for it.

It is very hard to get into an Australian school and you can kiss a good residency goodbye if you get your degree here. Best option is to complete your post-grad training in Aus.

Trust me, Australia is xenophobic.

WendyMBBS
03-08-2009, 10:05 PM
Care to tell me where you get your information from? And who exactly are you? Australia is not much more xenophobic than North America.

dadoc
03-10-2009, 06:23 AM
Info straight from the horses mouth - University of Sydney
FYI - the majority of the 62% that pass the USMLE the first time mostly take the exam straight after they have completed basic sciences and transfer to a US university.

Who am I? Im dadoc...

I dont think much news of Australia spreads to the world, but Im sure you can google it. Its alot more xenophobic than the US.

murchison_jr
03-11-2009, 08:06 PM
Is there one good website for those of us international students interested in Australian to start the process?

dadoc
03-12-2009, 05:51 AM
No. Your going to want to look at the universities individually.
I would advise you either to study in University of Sydney, University of Wollongong or University of Queensland.

UoS and UQ are the 2 top universities, but in my opinion, UoW is much better (its a brand new program)

tHeDrEaMeR
03-14-2009, 08:24 AM
dadoc,

where exactly did you get 62% pass rate? I have been searching for so long for those very numbers....

(the above is obvious sarcasm, as AUSTRALIAN schools would NEVER publish USMLE pass rates because the USMLE means nothing for Australians. It's completely illogical to even try to come up with a number!)

dadoc, some of your attempts at confounding ppl are laughable at best.

M.D.ominican
03-14-2009, 11:54 PM
Well done genius, you found out he was making up his stats.

It is ammusing to even think that Australia would have a 62% pass rate. The number would be alot lower, seeing as how the basic sciences are simply half of what it is in the US curriculum.

There is no way that there have been enough people to make a straight statistic without assumptions.

tHeDrEaMeR
03-15-2009, 12:40 AM
are u some sort of a hitman MDominican? It seems to me like u defend the likes of dadoc and wendy on every thread whenever they fall short...

And btw..."genius"...it's spelt AMUSING, NOT "amussing".

And I highly doubt that was a typing error, because you seem to put in all your commas and periods...

Also, comparing from the stats at my OWN school, every Australian grad who has wanted to get a match in Canada/U.S. has gotten one...so I doubt your logic is sound on the point of their basic science skills being weaker. You are basically just arguing a point based on your OWN opinion, without even a mere fact to support it. Therefore, your argument, along with the two other posters' arguments, are going nowhere.

Also, I don't have any intention of starting a flame war...so i'm out.

Lyndal @ UOW
03-15-2009, 01:54 AM
hee hee dreamer, too late- I think you and I have probably started flame wars on a couple of threads today. :)

In my experiences meeting with the NRMP, ECFMG and state boards in US and MCC and CARMS in Canada they are generally very positive about the prospects of Australian grads returning to North America.. provided they do the work to pass USMLE. There are no stats on pass or match rates for Australians (even NRMP and ECFMG dont have those stats) but anecdotally we all know people who have successfulyy matched back home.

Now Aus schools do not teach you how to pass the USMLE, why would we? It is really irrelevant to most of our graduates so most who want to do USMLE will have to do extra work. That certainly doesnt mean you cant pass it - in fact I have heard that while the step 1 can be challenging because the science in Australian programmes is taught in a more clinically relevant and integrated way (you may see that as being easier, up to you) however Australian grads tend to then do very well on the components that are more clincially focussed. However, I agree that the numebrs are just so small it is really hard to know.

I have read a lot of conversation regarding USMLE exams versus AMC exams etc etc.. These are very different and serve a completely different purpose so I would encourage you not to compare them at all. If anynone is interested I am happy to explain.

Take home message - anyone who attends a school OS will have a challenge in returning to the US but it is not impossible. Australian degrees are of a high quality and are recognised as such by the Powers that be. After that, its all up to you.

Cheers
Lyndal

trt
03-16-2009, 07:53 PM
Wow, thanks for the information

RAVINDERDHIMAN
04-07-2009, 08:51 PM
hee hee dreamer, too late- I think you and I have probably started flame wars on a couple of threads today. :)

In my experiences meeting with the NRMP, ECFMG and state boards in US and MCC and CARMS in Canada they are generally very positive about the prospects of Australian grads returning to North America.. provided they do the work to pass USMLE. There are no stats on pass or match rates for Australians (even NRMP and ECFMG dont have those stats) but anecdotally we all know people who have successfulyy matched back home.

Now Aus schools do not teach you how to pass the USMLE, why would we? It is really irrelevant to most of our graduates so most who want to do USMLE will have to do extra work. That certainly doesnt mean you cant pass it - in fact I have heard that while the step 1 can be challenging because the science in Australian programmes is taught in a more clinically relevant and integrated way (you may see that as being easier, up to you) however Australian grads tend to then do very well on the components that are more clincially focussed. However, I agree that the numebrs are just so small it is really hard to know.

I have read a lot of conversation regarding USMLE exams versus AMC exams etc etc.. These are very different and serve a completely different purpose so I would encourage you not to compare them at all. If anynone is interested I am happy to explain.

Take home message - anyone who attends a school OS will have a challenge in returning to the US but it is not impossible. Australian degrees are of a high quality and are recognised as such by the Powers that be. After that, its all up to you.

Cheers
Lyndal

i have couple of questions, one i am currently studying for usmle1, and i am due for exam in july 2009, and then will be starting my clinicals in september for 4 months, i know its soon to ask but i would like to know what is procedure, or requirements to practice in australia after i graduate from my medical school, secondly what are my chances and what score do i have to achieve in usmle1 to get residency in surgery in australia.

no offence but some people dont know anything about australia, it is beautful place to live and work, i did my commercial pilot liecence there and it is great place to study,live and work and PAAAARTYY!!!:D.

THANKS

dadoc
04-08-2009, 03:50 AM
USMLE means nothing in Australia. You will have to do AMC. Secondly, you would need to be qualified as a surgeon before you have a snowballs chance in hell of applying for one in Aus. There is no way that you could get a residency for surgery, there are just to many Aus trained med students.

redshifteffect
06-07-2009, 10:45 PM
Actually depends on the type of Surgery (program). The new SET program has changed a lot of things. Gen Surg for example is relatively easy to get into, you might just not get into first round.

What happens is people apply to all the various surgeries and then as they get into the more competitive ones (Ortho, ENT etc) positions in Gen Surg open up.

If you think you can get into Ortho, ENT or Opthalmology in the US even as a local you'd be dreaming a bit. These jobs are competitive all over the world.







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