PDA

View Full Version : To chiro or not to chiro... SOS



JCC
09-11-2008, 03:24 PM
To all:
I was recently accepted to Life University to begin their DC program but after some research I feel some reservation about following that path. Personally (by use of chiro care) I have seen improvements within myself in respect to my lower back pain.
After conversing with my DC over my current career path (I feel like a hit wall at work) he recommended looking into chiropractic school.. I did and was accepted.

My question to you is what areas of chiropractic gravitated you towards or away from the practice? Was it the schooling? Philosophies? Money? Integrity? Ethics? Do you feel that to many "sales-men" have entered the practice causing a stigma that will be hard to shake.

I realize my statement/question may be to vague but I would love any and all opinions. In high school I thought of Physical Therapy as a career unfortunately freshman year of college got the best of me and turned me away from PT. I am now 28 and have always felt the desire to help people; I though of dentistry, osteopathy possible dermatology.

At this time in my life I would like to embark in a field that will not question my ethics in the medical field I choose.

Thanks for all you help and advice.

bookite
09-11-2008, 06:16 PM
I have never regretted my experience going to Chiro school or working as a DC. I enjoyed many aspects of being self-employed and working in my office. I made the move to medicine for several reasons.
1. greater scope of practice - working as a DC I felt I was doing the something on each patient.
2. Greater diversity of patients - I enjoy working with young and old but in Chiropractic I didn't see a lot of kids or teens due to the financial nature. (while some DCs say they have a pediatric practices I would say they still see more adults then kids or teens)
3. No marketing - I didn't like working the malls or at the local craft fair. I also don't like commission sales and that's what it is when you start out and for some throughout their career.
4. Knowing how much money you will make this months is also something medicine brings. As a DC your collections and cash payments determine your pay. If you have a down month you may not make much. In medicine I get paid every month because there are always paying patients.

OK these are a few things you should think about before starting your education.
If you want to go Chiro school do it. Work hard and succeed, there are people out there that have done it before but the decision is up to you. Several people on this board were told not to go to a caribbean school because you won't get a residency. Look where they are now. My fathers MD told him I would only beable to get into Family Medicine if I went off shore.

Good luck

bahiakid1
09-11-2008, 11:49 PM
JCC,

I am sort of the same boat as you. I was accepted to a Chiro school in California and I was scheduled to start this past July, but while completing my prerequesites, I realized that it was not for me.

After interviewing various MD's and Chiros...I came to the conclusion that Chiros are very limited to what they can do, and I talked to 2 of Chiros who were in their late thirties and owned 2 successful practice each in South Florida....but they got bored of the treatment part...so essentially they turned into business men.

Personally, investing about $150,000 and 3.5 years to practice something where I am so limited that I can't even prescribe over the counter advil ...did not make much sense to me. Not to mention the numerous DC's recently graduated who were swimming in debt and were not guaranteed anything when they got out.

With medicine, you can always work for a hospital make a guaranteed salary with great benefits and down the road you can open your own practice when you have some money to invest.

Don't get sucked in that Chiropractors make 6 figures right out of school (it seems to be the #1 marketing trick that Chiropractic schools use to reel in students) From what I hear........to make 6 figures, you really have to hussle....and thats when I started questioning the ethics part of the practice.

I am 100% confident in my decision to go the MD route...sure it may take a little longer...but I think it is worth it in the long run. Bigger scope of practice, excellent job outlook, and STABILITY.

Kronos
09-12-2008, 12:11 AM
got too many chiros in this world, not enough MDs.

muscles316
09-12-2008, 03:37 AM
JCC,

I am sort of the same boat as you. I was accepted to a Chiro school in California and I was scheduled to start this past July, but while completing my prerequesites, I realized that it was not for me.

After interviewing various MD's and Chiros...I came to the conclusion that Chiros are very limited to what they can do, and I talked to 2 of Chiros who were in their late thirties and owned 2 successful practice each in South Florida....but they got bored of the treatment part...so essentially they turned into business men.

Personally, investing about $150,000 and 3.5 years to practice something where I am so limited that I can't even prescribe over the counter advil ...did not make much sense to me. Not to mention the numerous DC's recently graduated who were swimming in debt and were not guaranteed anything when they got out.

With medicine, you can always work for a hospital make a guaranteed salary with great benefits and down the road you can open your own practice when you have some money to invest.

Don't get sucked in that Chiropractors make 6 figures right out of school (it seems to be the #1 marketing trick that Chiropractic schools use to reel in students) From what I hear........to make 6 figures, you really have to hussle....and thats when I started questioning the ethics part of the practice.

I am 100% confident in my decision to go the MD route...sure it may take a little longer...but I think it is worth it in the long run. Bigger scope of practice, excellent job outlook, and STABILITY.


I also agree with bahiakid1. I practiced chiro for 5 years, but felt the scope of the occupation to be very limited. Don't get me wrong. Many people love chiro and end up financially well-off, but many do not. Chiro is not just about being good at what you do, but how you do it.....you have to be a business-person. You must be able to sell yourself. Patients are not going to be knocking down your doors for your services, but they will if you are an MD or DO. The fact is that there is a great shortage of MD's and not DC's. I personally have many friends who gave up chiro because they could not make enough business, but I also have some who are doing well.

I don't regret doing chiro, but I am much happier in medical school. I am older than my peers, but love what I do.

khiro
09-12-2008, 02:39 PM
it has been written many times that geologists are overly optimistic...every hole should be a "gusher"; greg stanley wrote an article in dynamic chiropractic titled the sustainability of chiropractic dated september 10, 2007. please, please google this and read it. it may be pessimistic for some chiros, but at the same time accurate for others.

at 28 you (and most people reading this forum) have something very precious. that is your youth. don't squander it; make it pay off every day for the rest of your life. make an investment. i highly value bookite's experiences, and his recommendations. you should too.

good luck. khiro

hunteradam07
09-19-2008, 12:05 AM
Dont go to Chiro school! Go to Medical school and learn how to really help someone. And if u really feel that u want to focus on physical medicine, there is something call Physicial Medicine and Rehab. That would allow you to more than any DC can for your patients. Bottomline, do you really want to help your patients with all ur ability or u want to make money and limit your scope of practice. Think about it.!

longchode
09-19-2008, 04:33 PM
Dont go to Chiro school! Go to Medical school and learn how to really help someone. And if u really feel that u want to focus on physical medicine, there is something call Physicial Medicine and Rehab. That would allow you to more than any DC can for your patients. Bottomline, do you really want to help your patients with all ur ability or u want to make money and limit your scope of practice. Think about it.!

Learn how to really help someone? That is the biggest piece of crap comment. Chiropractors have a higher positive rating from patients when polled. Do you not think chiropractors help people??? Go shadow one and see how well people feel they are getting helped. You are ignorant.

hunteradam07
09-19-2008, 08:56 PM
Whoa i guess i touched off some nerve! Let me repharse it What i mean by helping people is to help people with actual disease that can be diagnosed or in Harrison's internal medicine book. Not factious disorder like subluxation complex which requires a life time of adjustment. Does that help to clarify my point?

I hope you enjoy your spinal screen at swap-meet, Walmart, or any county fairs. Now that is ignorant!

longchode
09-22-2008, 08:19 AM
I hope you enjoy your spinal screen at swap-meet, Walmart, or any county fairs. Now that is ignorant!
Why do you assume that all chiropractors do spinal screenings??? I have never done one, never will, and never have needed to. I think they are degrading. As a side, look at a health fair in your area sometime, you will see all kinds of MD's offices there as well as DC's. Just saying that DC's do swap-meets and the such is ignorant on your part.

DRMEDHEAD
09-23-2008, 12:18 AM
Why do you assume that all chiropractors do spinal screenings??? I have never done one, never will, and never have needed to. I think they are degrading. As a side, look at a health fair in your area sometime, you will see all kinds of MD's offices there as well as DC's. Just saying that DC's do swap-meets and the such is ignorant on your part.

chiro 18 yrs,,finishing 2nd yr med and very happy to choose it,,reason? the prev mentioned ones above will fit with me fine,,,I agree with all of the posters as well

hunteradam07
09-23-2008, 02:10 PM
You seem to forget one important thing about MDs at Health Fairs. The reason why they are there is very simple HEALTH FAIRS! NOT SWAPP-meet or Walmart! Because it's health related! GET IT! They want to inform or screen the public for disease like DM, HTN, Obsesity, you know the kind of diseases that you can look up in Harrison's=Actual diseases. I really have not seen any MDs, DO, DDS, or even Pod at swap meet. But i saw 3 booths in this weekend when i walk around my local swap meet! The point is if you can show me anywhere in scientific research-Gold standard-that you actually treating in term of subluxation complex. That is why DC will never get the acceptance of MDs, because we MDs have a hard time believing in anything purely on FAITH. WE are not FAITH Healers you see. WE actually try as much as we can to gave some kind of standard of practice, which mean that if you go to see your doctor for a strep throat, i m pretty sure most of them would give you some kind of antibiotic (Pen) instead of feeling your energy field like NET or BEST technique or full body X-ray or anything source of thing like that. It calls evidence base practice and first do no harm! Just one of those thing u read in first year Med school. I m very happy that you dont have to go to swap-meet or walmart, and i agree with u it's very degrading. Maybe you can start a movement in the DC community and stop that kind of behavior. Oh dont forget to also stop DC doing adjustment on animals and sublingual vitamins neuromuscles testing technique as a diagnostic tool as well. It has never been proven that Vitamins can absorb sublingually without other pharmacological aid. You see there are something call physiology and pharmacology. I really wish you a lot of luck in the process of cleaning up your profession. Dont hesitate to ask me for any help! I would do all i can to help another "health care professional' out even though i still see them at swap meet trying to spinal screen me for disease that i cant look up in Harrison.

thehemp
09-26-2008, 01:30 PM
JCC, getting back on track here. You need to do what's right for you. The fact that your having some reservations about Chiro should be a red flag. Spend time shadowing both (MD's & DC's) say to yourself," Can I see myself in this profession for the next 40 years??" I became a Chiro and ignored the voice telling me to go the other way. My practice is super successful, yet here I am 7 years later on VMD preparing to make a MAJOR career change. Chiro works wonders and I LIKE it alot, medicine works wonders and I LOVE it alot. There are pro's & con's to both, but you gotta trust your gut. I'll leave you with this, being a salesman, get's boring fast. Regardless what anyone tells you, if you become a DC you must accept the fact that you must sell yourself (services) to survive. Ignore all the bashing on both sides, research your options & trust the gut.

hunteradam07
09-26-2008, 04:24 PM
JCC, getting back on track here. You need to do what's right for you. The fact that your having some reservations about Chiro should be a red flag. Spend time shadowing both (MD's & DC's) say to yourself," Can I see myself in this profession for the next 40 years??" I became a Chiro and ignored the voice telling me to go the other way. My practice is super successful, yet here I am 7 years later on VMD preparing to make a MAJOR career change. Chiro works wonders and I LIKE it alot, medicine works wonders and I LOVE it alot. There are pro's & con's to both, but you gotta trust your gut. I'll leave you with this, being a salesman, get's boring fast. Regardless what anyone tells you, if you become a DC you must accept the fact that you must sell yourself (services) to survive. Ignore all the bashing on both sides, research your options & trust the gut.
Absolutely agree with u on this point, If you willing to take 100G+ student loans gamble in this economy (and noone will bail u out like the Fat Cats on Wall Street, remember student loans are paying until u died), then by all mean do it and dont look back. There are always some successful stories in any industry! The bottomline is this as you read how many DCs leaving the profession to become MDs, have you ever wonder why there are not a lot of MDs doing the same if everything in DC world is wonderful and honky dorry! Sometimes is hard to tell the truth and people will defend something that they know deep down inside it's wrong. I m only trying to give you the point of view of someone who had several friends that are DCs and going back to med school. The rest are up to you really. Good luck!

GbrdTbrd
09-29-2008, 11:32 AM
I've been practicing chiro for 14 years now; I would not go to chiro school unless you can come out with very low debt or you've got rich backing to get started in business. Insurance reimbursement gets worse and worse; it's a joke in many cases. In my opinion, an MD degree is far more valuable for the money you pay; there will virtually always be a place to work and a guarantee of a decent salary. The vast majority of chiros run their own single doc practices and it's increasingly difficult to be paid equitably for the great service most of us provide. Insurance companies love to keep panels of us in their plans but in most cases the patient is paying the bulk of the visit because of super high copays. (This is the case for us in North Carolina) If we could be reimbursed like an MD is for providing the same service, it would be OK but it's simply not the case.

hunteradam07
09-29-2008, 07:00 PM
I've been practicing chiro for 14 years now; I would not go to chiro school unless you can come out with very low debt or you've got rich backing to get started in business. Insurance reimbursement gets worse and worse; it's a joke in many cases. In my opinion, an MD degree is far more valuable for the money you pay; there will virtually always be a place to work and a guarantee of a decent salary. The vast majority of chiros run their own single doc practices and it's increasingly difficult to be paid equitably for the great service most of us provide. Insurance companies love to keep panels of us in their plans but in most cases the patient is paying the bulk of the visit because of super high copays. (This is the case for us in North Carolina) If we could be reimbursed like an MD is for providing the same service, it would be OK but it's simply not the case.
Another post against DCs. Have anyone been keeping track? I think the majority of the posts in this subject are clearly against it. And it came from mostly Chiropractors who leaving their professions and going back to Medical schools. This is an clear indictment on the whole profession!

GbrdTbrd
10-01-2008, 07:56 AM
Hunteradam: You need to dial back your rhetoric about chiropractic a little. You act like a 5 year old strutting around with your MD degree medal hung around your neck. Good for you big boy! I guess you won the big race and you feel the need to rub it in everyone's face. My point is that chiros wouldn't need to be out in the public if we would simply get paid equitably for the same services that our medical colleagues provide. It is disgraceful that Medicare doesn't pay for a 99203 exam and a two-view cervical series in a chiro office but does in a medical office. We are still held to the same enormous documentation requirements but in order to participate with Medicare, we have to swallow these bitter pills. And this has nothing to do with who does these services better but everything to do with the politics of big medicine, big pharma, and big government. I'm not completely familiar with what your axe grind is but please don't go down the "medicine is safer route". The fact is that we all end up being guinea pigs for medical procedures/drugs that can't be adequately tested in vitro. You make the argument that medicine treats real diseases and gives real treatments but you ignore that pain, disability, suffering, and death caused avoidably by an overzealous system that is allowing the tail (big pharma primarily) to wag the dog. Why is the US 29th among industrialized countries in terms of overall health but far and away #1 in spending per capita?

hunteradam07
10-01-2008, 05:44 PM
Hunteradam: You need to dial back your rhetoric about chiropractic a little. You act like a 5 year old strutting around with your MD degree medal hung around your neck. Good for you big boy! I guess you won the big race and you feel the need to rub it in everyone's face. My point is that chiros wouldn't need to be out in the public if we would simply get paid equitably for the same services that our medical colleagues provide. It is disgraceful that Medicare doesn't pay for a 99203 exam and a two-view cervical series in a chiro office but does in a medical office. We are still held to the same enormous documentation requirements but in order to participate with Medicare, we have to swallow these bitter pills. And this has nothing to do with who does these services better but everything to do with the politics of big medicine, big pharma, and big government. I'm not completely familiar with what your axe grind is but please don't go down the "medicine is safer route". The fact is that we all end up being guinea pigs for medical procedures/drugs that can't be adequately tested in vitro. You make the argument that medicine treats real diseases and gives real treatments but you ignore that pain, disability, suffering, and death caused avoidably by an overzealous system that is allowing the tail (big pharma primarily) to wag the dog. Why is the US 29th among industrialized countries in terms of overall health but far and away #1 in spending per capita?
Although i never claimed medicine is perfect, i understand what u mean with all the medical issues with health care. All i can say is imgaine your life without modern medicine, without antibiotic, or any other life saving procedures. Yes MDs get it wrong too absolutely, but what we understand is Medicine is not an exact science (however we trying to be so). That is why we try to have standard and ethics in most of every aspect of medicine. From research to ethical/professional standard MD, all i m asking is the same from DCs. Clean up your profession and move forward! That is all it take, please do it for humanity sake!

GbrdTbrd
10-01-2008, 09:52 PM
I absolutely respect medicine for the tremendous work in life-saving procedures and in the judicious application of pharmaceuticals and surgery. I am not anti-drug or anti-medicine and I realize the absolute importance of what allopathic medicine brings to the table. But regardless of what you might think, the majority of us don't need to be "cleaned up." Most chiros are in reality practicing allopathic chiropractic because we are treating diseases of the spine and extremities that have a neuromusculoskeletal basis. Most of us see back and neck pain, disc problems, and headaches as the primary basis of our patient base. FYI, subluxation is really a "catch-all" term which encompasses problems with alignment, vertebral motion, degeneration, nerve root function, deafferentation, etc. which manifests itself as spinal pain, referred pain, radiculopathy, and other nervous system effects. But when we code for insurance/referrals, etc. we use standard ICD-9 codes such as IVD syndrome, DDD, DJD, etc. But in the bigger picture, you really need to look at the research (compiled frequently by MD's and PhD's) which support the effects of spinal manipulation (and the study of spinal joints/anatomy/etc.) on the functioning of the nervous system as a whole through activation of mechanoreceptors, alpha motor neurons, nociceptive inhibition, somatovisceral responses, and other effects which may affect organs or the body as a whole. It is very exciting stuff and if you'll please take the time to look, there are real physiologic and anatomic basis for this. I'm not saying we can cure cancer, diabetes, or Grave's disease with an adjustment and I think it would be difficult to find a chiro who would say this anymore. What you need to understand is that we want the population (and you) to understand that our mission is to really help allow the nervous system to function optimally by promoting and maintaining good spinal function and structure. A spinal screening at a mall doesn't mean the chiro is a shyster and simply looking to rip someone off. If you are still finishing your medical training, it is very distressing to know that you'll probably be telling all your patients that we're a bunch of shysters. As far as I'm concerned, many MD's have been committing malpractice for deliberately steering away patients from chiros because they're too lazy, biased, hateful, or ignorant to get to know chiros they trust and to really get to know what we do. In my town, one of the best-known and respected neurosurgeons I know gets his spine adjusted regularly and he has had several previous back surgeries. A close primary care MD friend of mine gets adjusted regularly because it helps prevent her migraine headaches. We do spinal screenings at Wal-Mart because we simply have to be our own advocates. By the way, I hate doing stuff like this; it is demeaning to me but it's simply a fact of life. It's too bad because patients are usually quite satisified with their experience in our offices and we'd really like to make you guys (the MD's) look good when you refer cases to us.

hunteradam07
10-01-2008, 10:15 PM
hmm i m not sure that BEST, NET, Gonstead, and all the branches of chiropractic will agree with u about manipulation. The thing is this if you take one person and exam by a panel of chiropractors what do u think the consensus of level of subluxation would be? I dont think most of them even have the same findings. Is that a problem all ur diagnostic tools are subjective? And some even take full spine xrays and show subluxation to patients as part of the patient education. Full spine Xray had never been proven for anything/any research. There are several studies done with chiropractic finding on palpation back in 2000, and the consensus is no objective consistent finding btw one dc to another. I mean if i look at ABC and i have a standard measurement to see what normal and not, which i form my ddx on. I dont see how that is w DCs. Although there are small number of DC doing adjustment on dogs and horses (NO JOKE), how do you justify that as part of your profession? Yesterday i went to my local mall and i saw a DC office with touting that he can reverse scoliosis with manipulation in children. I dont agree with u that it's only small problem, i think it's huge issue within your profession. And until that is the case, i dont think that would be any different in term of hw other profession see you.

GbrdTbrd
10-02-2008, 09:25 AM
I would submit that 80% of us do a problem-focused lumbar exam and lumbar xray if there's a lumbar complaint. If there's DDD at L5/S1, that's the primary area of subluxation for the purpose of medical necessity. Fringe techniques such as NET, BEST, etc. push the boundaries in what is termed vitalistic chiro and while you may not respect their approach from a strictly medical viewpoint, patients still get good results. If it's placebo, then it's placebo. But this is strongly at work in medicine too, perhaps much more than many would like to admit. The one thing that bothers me is that the medical profession seems to embrace acupuncture and doesn't seem to question it strongly but who can measure "chi"? Another MD next to my office is doing acupuncture now.

I appreciate the fact that you know enough about the techniques to discuss them and I agree that some of chiro approaches seem weird (I personally am much more mechanistic but I am aware of the fascinating literature about how the nervous system interplays with the immune system, etc.) but I don't want throw the baby out with the bathwater. Why is it that some people get a cold and others don't when you expose them to the same virus? Why is it that people asthma may improve when receiving spinal adjustments? Why is it such a stretch to think that manipulation could very definitely affect (and actually has been shown) the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system? There's much more evidence out there than I really think you're aware and it's really interesting. Just realize that some techniques are trying to tap into this side of nervous system function. I do hope that instead of always looking for the bad in our profession, which you seem to focus on, try to realize that the majority of us treat spinal problems and when other conditions respond favorably along with it, let's try to figure out exactly why. Most chiros I know are not hung up on the subuxation concept. It's simply not that important in day-to-day practice.......if DDD causes the sublux fine, if DJD causes it, fine, if poor posture causes it, fine, if a viscerosomatic reflexes cause it, fine. Medicine is extremely mechanistic and so is much of chiropractic but there are vitalistic/whole body effects of the nervous system which we may tap into which can help patients also.

GbrdTbrd
10-02-2008, 12:00 PM
This just in: FDA recalls cold medicines for children because "there is less evidence than ever....etc. etc." read it for yourself on MSN today. Big pharma and big medicine love to create conventional "scientific" wisdom which the public swallows like every other pill. Adamhunter, I know you view medicine as scientific but quite frankly, much of what you do/prescribe/etc. is not very scientific. It might seem so but frankly it isn't. (See ***** Eddy, PhD Duke Univ. study) Drug studies are funded by drug companies. Look at the conventional wisdom of ERT that went on for years and years and has been dubunked. Look at the conventional wisdom of using antibiotics for everything that went on for years and years and the medical community finally realized there was a problem. Medicine loves to trumpet the advent of the antibiotic as the reason for the reduction in infectious disease; the reality is that improved sanitation is by far the most important cause. We are force-fed the absolute supremacy of vaccinations and that it's almost illegal not to get every vaccination known. I strongly believe that there is a link between auto-immune disease which develops later in life and vaccination, let alone the deaths and injury which occur directly within days of a vaccine. My point is that it is important to question "authority." Be careful of what you perceive to be "science." And just remember, if you outlive your MD, how much of an expert was he/she?:D

hunteradam07
10-02-2008, 02:16 PM
OMG are u telling me you are against vaccination children? Let me tell u the pediatric society of America and the AMA had cleared stated throught 20 yrs reseach, there is no link btw autism and vaccine. It's one of the biggest study in history of US. I would only imagine the world without vaccination, where disease like polio, MMR, haemophilus, and hep B-just to name a few-run wild! This is exactly what i happen problem with DCs. Let me just tell you a little back ground info. Last year when i was in Chicago doing my review for step 1 at hotel, there was a big Gonstead seminar going on downstairs and there were at least several hundreds of DCs taking it (so it's not fringe interm of number). During break i stopped by and listened for a few min, one guy on the podium was talking about how there is a link btw vaccination and autism, and he didnt vaccine his children. Furthermore, he advised his fellow DCs to inform their patients not to vaccine their children either. This is where DCs can really damage and directly cause harm to other human being. Most medicine are not placebo bases, i think you have to read up on Katzung and see what they call pharmadynic and pharmakinetic to understand this.
Spinal manipulation has never showed to affect the nervous system in any study (Gold standard double blind or even triple blind kind). For sure, it's cant affect Parasymp, because i know it's from cranial and sacral area. Unless you telling me you can adjust the brain stem (Midbrain Pon and Medulla) or a fuse sacrum, then how do you going to affect PS system?
As far as chiropractic manipulation, when i was doing my PMNR rotation the MD brought up and article in physical therapy mag, and it said through their clinical trial, there is no different btw end range loading vs actual manipulation in outcome of the patients. And end range loading are perfromed by PT with other physical modalities, it showed to be more affective and adjustment alone.
Please vaccine your children or read up more on this before you decide to do something that can really harm them! U should also read up on something called herd immunity too. I glad we actually havging an open debate on this forum.

longchode
10-02-2008, 03:53 PM
OMG are u telling me you are against vaccination children? Let me tell u the pediatric society of America and the AMA had cleared stated throught 20 yrs reseach, there is no link btw autism and vaccine. It's one of the biggest study in history of US. I would only imagine the world without vaccination, where disease like polio, MMR, haemophilus, and hep B-just to name a few-run wild! This is exactly what i happen problem with DCs. Let me just tell you a little back ground info. Last year when i was in Chicago doing my review for step 1 at hotel, there was a big Gonstead seminar going on downstairs and there were at least several hundreds of DCs taking it (so it's not fringe interm of number). During break i stopped by and listened for a few min, one guy on the podium was talking about how there is a link btw vaccination and autism, and he didnt vaccine his children. Furthermore, he advised his fellow DCs to inform their patients not to vaccine their children either. This is where DCs can really damage and directly cause harm to other human being. Most medicine are not placebo bases, i think you have to read up on Katzung and see what they call pharmadynic and pharmakinetic to understand this.
Spinal manipulation has never showed to affect the nervous system in any study (Gold standard double blind or even triple blind kind). For sure, it's cant affect Parasymp, because i know it's from cranial and sacral area. Unless you telling me you can adjust the brain stem (Midbrain Pon and Medulla) or a fuse sacrum, then how do you going to affect PS system?
As far as chiropractic manipulation, when i was doing my PMNR rotation the MD brought up and article in physical therapy mag, and it said through their clinical trial, there is no different btw end range loading vs actual manipulation in outcome of the patients. And end range loading are perfromed by PT with other physical modalities, it showed to be more affective and adjustment alone.
Please vaccine your children or read up more on this before you decide to do something that can really harm them! U should also read up on something called herd immunity too. I glad we actually havging an open debate on this forum.
I didn't get vaccinated as a child, and we haven't done it with our 2 kids. By the way, I'm opting out of this forum, getting bored with it and your english isn't good enough for me to keep up with it... Isn't that what you told a chiro that wanted to look into an MD degree. You have a history of hating us so there really is no point is there to continue. Btw, I also practice Gonstead... LoL:twisted:

GbrdTbrd
10-02-2008, 04:11 PM
1) First of all, I have an 11 year old and he's had his vaccinations; that said, I still wonder whether it puts him at risk for other problems. I never mentioned autism, you did. I'm concerned that one of the binding ties to autoimmune disorders is vaccinations. I may be wrong but please don't act like there shouldn't be a discussion about this. Thousands and thousand of people, lay persons and medical people have made this an issue. It's unbelievable how dogmatic you are.

2) Spinal manipulation doesn't affect the nervous system? What does it affect, the rear-end of a pick-up truck?

3) The trigeminal nucleus of the trigeminal nerve extends into the cervical spine.

Spurs, dural adhesions, scar tissue, and bulging discs(anterior) can insult the chain ganglia of the SNS directly.

Meningeal tension, especially via a small slip of muscle that connnects the dura at C2/3 to the PLL, can be affected by manipulation. The exit of the vagus nerve(just slightly important parasym.nerve) at the jugular foramen is in very close proximity to the atlantooccipital articulation and mechanical forces of upper cervical misalignment may alter the function of the vagus.

Mechanoreceptors and nociceptors in spinal joints constantly feed information into the spinal cord which affect higher brain centers.

I really don't feel like writing a book about this, you need to look at this stuff in your neuroanatomy. I didn't make it up.

I'm wasting my time here. You will do anything to negate and denigrate anything that interferes with your strong bias. I like having an intellectual discussion and I'll admit when I'm wrong, uninformed, or when a point is debatable. I've seen the totality of the posts you've made in other threads (especially the argument Dr. Webb made) and I realize there's no winning or even agreeing to disagree with you.

longchode
10-02-2008, 04:55 PM
I'm wasting my time here. You will do anything to negate and denigrate anything that interferes with your strong bias. I like having an intellectual discussion and I'll admit when I'm wrong, uninformed, or when a point is debatable. I've seen the totality of the posts you've made in other threads (especially the argument Dr. Webb made) and I realize there's no winning or even agreeing to disagree with you.
I agree with you on this one.

GbrdTbrd
10-02-2008, 05:08 PM
I agree with you on this one.
Sorry, longchode, my response might have looked like it was directed at you. Are you in med school now? I never intended to get into an online intellectual exercise, I was just trying to help people who either are/or are considering becoming chiro about the current problems with making a living and the cost of the DC degree. Then I saw what this person was writing about chiro in general and felt need to respond. I've toyed with idea of going back to school but now I'm really too old (46) I think to consider it. What's your story?

hunteradam07
10-02-2008, 06:27 PM
show me a double blind article on manipulation and nervous system affect. Please I m waiting for this article for a long time! I would love to expand my horizon. What u described seems like "hole in one concept" by Gonstead, which once again has no evident to support it. Show me the evidence peer-review or double blind clinical trials? Chiropractic has been around for awhile, so where is the meat? As for my posted with DC Webb did u see all his posted? He is not pro-chiro as u think. I remember one of his posted saying that what disease are DCs treating? It's a very informative posted i thought. Furthermore, he is going back to medical school as well. What does that say? In term of vaccination, all i can tell u is go to the american pediatric ***. for information, they are actually experts in these subject. I dont really like pedia as much as i should, i prefer EM and trying to match for that.
As far as my English, yes it's no way or even close to perfect. However, i passed my CS without problem and i m typing this as fast as i can during my USMLE step 2 Ck review. So i m sorry that i dont have time to do grammar and spell check for u. If my English is good enough for the United States Medical Licensing Exam, i hope it's good enough for DCs standard. Or maybe u guys are having higher standard than USMLE that i dont about. OH well either way i m sorry for my short coming, i promised to work harder on communication w my real patients in the future. Thank you for all your constuctive comments. I hope to find a DC close to my residency hosptial to prefer my patients too some day. Good luck to all. I throughly enjoy this converstation and continue to bring my strong and bias opinion to everyone on this form :).

hunteradam07
10-02-2008, 06:33 PM
This is his previous posted on subject of pro-chiro! Any dc cares to comment on this. This is from a licensed DC, and not from a bias foreign medical grad like me.

First of all.. there is no such thing as chiropractic medicine.. MEDICINE.. the healing art of prescribing MEDICATIONS....
You do that? I didn't know that was in the chiro scope of practice.

I made more in REAL chiropractic last year than you will make in 10. Chiropractic.. treats spinal conditions, so how are extremity issues in the chiro scope. You may not know this.. but NJ just stopped chiros from doing extremity adjusting because is not in their scope.

Just to let you know, I am a CCSP, CCEP and a DACBR. I will assure you that my chiro education was better than most and my post graduate education in chiro is far superior to yours. I taught seminars on extremity adjusting, physical exams, insurance billing, chiro radiology and practice management. I worked for one of the top (if not the top) chiro practice consultants and I also worked for Tony Robbins International as a motivational speaker.

The conditions you speak of can be treated by PTs and MDs and have better long term outcomes than chiro treatments. I would be willing to bet that 75% of "your" current patients don't have serious injury or pain.

Dentistry isn't a NEED. You don't NEED teeth, people went forever without dentistry. That is why most people pay cash at dentist.

I don't prescribe to Network or AK, but Don Epstein and the AK people have done more REAL research in those techniques than the old "rack em and crack em". Maybe you should see that. I would never use either, but they do have research.

Show me some creditable chiro research and tell me where some is being conducted.

All insurances cover chiro? Are you out of your mind. Tell me what state you are in and I will give you two that don't for every ONE that does.

The training chiros get is not a lot. I bet you can take a patient and have 10 chiros examine them and have 10 different diagnosis.

NO MD would go back to school for a few years to ADD chiro to their knowledge. They may have told you that, but most people in chiro school lie about why they are there.

I don't have an inferiority complex and I am not bitter. I had a great office that afforded me many luxuries. I also helped many people in my practice.

I said chiro works.. just that MDs can learn to do the little that chiros do and could take over the profession. I will do chiro in my office. A friend of mine who does neurology now, was a chiro. He adjusts people too.

Chiro is sooo limiting in what you do. Codes are not an issue.. the issue is to what procedures you do and can perform. You are trained and licensed to do nothing that a massage therapist can't do, with a 5 month education.

If you are satisfied with chiro.. then be happy.. Don't worry yourself with what I do and what I say.,.

That is the problem with most chiros.. worried about what the person down the street is doing or saying, not putting enough focus on your own practice.

Good luck with chiro. I still have a lot of friends who are still practicing. I wish them luck.. I also hope that chiro is still good and making money 7-9 years from now when I am done. However.. I was not willing to sit around and pray it would be.

Have a great day!!
__________________
John Webb, MS, DC, CCEP, DAAIM, FAAPM

GbrdTbrd
10-02-2008, 07:37 PM
Now, now little hunteradam, that's not all Dr. Webb posted when he tried to make a point with you. He made a very cogent intellectual argument in another post and you just blew it off. You're being a bad boy hunteradam

I'll give you a diagnostic challenge,; see if you can dx yourself with DSM; I'll give you some hints: 1)never wrong 2)inflated self image

hunteradam07
10-02-2008, 07:58 PM
dont kill the messenger! I just brought up what he said in this previous post. Instead of talking about issues that he brought up in this post or my issue (lack of clinical trial for chiro adjustment), you rather attack me personally. Hmm how mature is that? I have never done it to you. Oh well it comes right out of DC play book, isnt it? Instead of talking about the issues you go for personal attack. It's ok i m used to it. Still where is the beef? Give me research or clinical trials on what u doing?
Oh did u read DC webb post about Chiropractic education compare to MD education? Would you like me to put up that post as well? I would love too get your take on it. God Bless all DCs that doing the right thing for their patients, may they get full
Reimbursement from the health insurance!

GbrdTbrd
10-02-2008, 08:49 PM
I feel strongly that you blatantly ignore and discredit what doesn't fit your bias box. In my initial posts, I was respectful to you and I recognized the benefits of medicine and your choice of careers. Please carefully review my previous posts; I acknowledged (I wouldn't be on this blog otherwise) that my degree isn't as valuable as yours in terms of future employment. However, I saw in other threads where you basically stated that all or most chiropractors are liars. You continually rip on and rub it in our faces that we have to do spinal screenings even when those of us trying to have a reasonable discussion about it acknowledge that we don't like having to meet the public this way.

stephew
10-02-2008, 09:38 PM
Anyone with PM's to edit for tos violation is strongly advised to do so. Further violations will lead to immediate infraction, no courtesy pms' first.

hunteradam07
10-03-2008, 01:12 AM
What bias are u talking about? I have consistently asking simple question: Where is the clinical/research evident for manipulation? I brought up the facts of spinal screening at swap-meet and walmart, because it's that what i see all the time. And many DCs agree with me that is degrading and it should not be a marketing tools. U know w all your personal attack, you never said that what i said my previous posts were wrong. From spinal screening or anything related to peer review or clinical research on manipulation. I m still waiting for those. Look if you see what DC webb was saying about education of DC and he compared it to far less flattering as in a masseur. I wonder what u think of that. It's not me to degrade some one education, i m just asking for proof. Show me the beef. And at the end of the day, it's up to DCs to clean up their profession or not. And it's up to you to be included in the 21st Century health care system. You should be glad someone like me actually taking interest in your profession and will to spend extra time to have open dialog. That is all. God Bless.

PS: This is what he said: "Maybe technically you are a doctor, but in your chiro education.. You ARE inferior... in your level of training, you ARE inferior.. in your scope of practice.. You ARE inferior.."

I am/was a die hard, successful chiropractor.. who loved/loves my profession.. but I am just being honest..

Chiro school is a joke..chiro profession is going down.
__________________
John Webb, MS, DC, CCEP, DAAIM, FAAPM
SMU

longchode
10-03-2008, 08:41 AM
What's your story?
I'm a chiropractor in Nebraska with a little brother in med school at AUC in St Maarten. I have no intention of going back, he just let me know when I had time I could read the chiropractic forum and maybe do some input, but it turns out that a lot of people on here are anti-chiro. So I'm not going to waste my time bickering with the next Stephen Barrett. Wonder if he has stock in quackwatch???:D I also got an infraction for my post earlier... Can't believe posting the truth gets a guy an infraction:rolleyes:

GbrdTbrd
10-03-2008, 11:57 AM
OK, here goes, but I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time; you'll discount it all somehow.
1. Sato A, Swenson RS. Sympathetic nervous system response to mechanical stress of the spinal column in rats. JMPT 1984; 7:141-147
2. DeBoer KF, Schutz M, McKnight ME. Acute effects of spinal manipulation on gastrointestinal myoelectric activity in conscious rabbits. Manual Medicine 1988; 3:85-94
3. Deloof S, Bennis M, Rousseau JP. Inhibition of antral and pyloric electrical activity by vagal afferent stimulation in the rabbit. J Auton Nerv Sys 1987; 1913-20.
4. Vernon HT, et al. Spinal manipulation and beta-endorphin: A controlled study of the the effect of spinal manipulation on plasma beta-endorphin levels in normal males. JMPT 1986; 9:115-123.
5. Christian GF, et al. Immunoreactive ACTH, b-endorphin and cortisol levels in plasma following spinal manipulation therapy. Spine 1988; 13:1411-7.
6. Brennan PC, et al. Enhanced phagocytic cell respiratory burst induced by spinal manipulation: Potential role of substance P. JMPT 1991; 14:399-408.
7. Brennan PC, et al. Enhanced neutrophil respiratory burst as a biological marker for manipulation forces: Duration of the effect and association with substance P and tumor necrosis factor. JMPT 1992; 1583-89.
8. Brennan PC, et al. Lymphocyte profiles in patients with chronic LBP enrolled in a clinical trial. JMPT 1994.
9. Kokjohn K, et al. The effect of spinal manipulation on pain and prostaglandin levels in women with primary dysmenorrhea. JMPT 1992; 15:279-85.
10. Bakkum, et. al. Preliminary Morphological Evidence That Vertebral Hypomobility Induces Synaptic Plasticity in the Spinal Cord JMPT 2007; 5:336-343.
11. Taylor, Murphy Altered Sensorimotor Integration with Cervical Spine Manipulation JMPT 2007; 2; 115-126.
12. Murphy BA, Dawson NJ, Slack JR. Sacroiliac joint manipulation decreases the h-reflex. Electroencephalogr Clin Neurophysiol 1995; 35:87-94.
13. Haavik Taylor, Murphy. Transient modulation of intracortical inhibition following spinal manipulation. Chiropr J Aust 2007; 37:106-116.
14. Dishman, et al. Motor-Evoked Potentials Recorded from Erector Spinae Muscles: A Study of Corticospinal Excitability Changes Associated With Spinal Manipulation. JMPT 2008; 4:258-271.
15. Pickar JG. Neurophysiological effects of spinal manipulation. Spine J 2002; 2:357-71.

Maybe I'll add some more later but it won't matter to this dude.

khiro
10-03-2008, 12:01 PM
i appreciate reading the various points of view from the major posters on this thread and i hope that those who are viewing and are interested in entering chiropractic will read (this thread and others) and be very discerning in their decision.

i am sure that to some chiros i have spent my entire practice time missing what "true" chiropractic is. for the mds, i am not an RD (real doctor), and not worthy of even the title. i have dealt with this since the beginning of my time in chiropractic; it is to be expected. for those thinking of becoming a chiropractor: is this what you want? for those inside of your profession to openly question how and what you do? for those outside to do the same?

sure, i can come up with some ways to improve our image, and financial situation, but how far would my suggestion go to close half of our colleges? and for the ones left over, cut your enrollment in half? what does chiropractic do? added 2 schools in florida. that is our answer.

hunteradam: you have brought up (i believe) all the dirt possible on the chiropractic profession. but know this, a certain percentage of your patients will see a chiropractor (and possibly for a condition that they felt you (medicine) didn't help them with). chiropractic can help some people with some conditions. after 21 years thats not a problem with me. for the sake of the usually young and uninformed college-age people on this forum, (and let me be selfish for a second), my concern is that the chiropractic profession may not help the chiropractor in the future. yes, i know that chiropractic can be beneficial, but i do have a beef with the "profession" as a whole.

my interest is in the future of young people making good decisions; decisions that are based on reality and truth. currently on this thread that career decision is b/t chiropractic and organized medicine (md/do). because of my numerous concerns regarding the "profession" of chiropractic, i could not recommend that someone become a chiropractor. the dc degree takes significant time and money; i dont think that it is unreasonable to expect an honorable time in practice, with sufficient income. i hope i have been clear.

khiro

GbrdTbrd
10-03-2008, 12:47 PM
Well put, khiro and I can't agree more with you.

hunteradam07
10-03-2008, 03:53 PM
Thanks for all those articles, i will definitively look them up once i m done with my CK-hopefully i can download them-And i will give u my "Bias" opinion on them. But i noticed it's JMPT not DCs journal. Now what i am asking you is JMPT has the same definition of manipulation as DC? What am i m saying end range loading or what PT called mobilization is the same as an adjustment-crack-under DC? Please show me where in JMPT that showed the same definition for DC adjustment and PT mobilization tech. If it's not the same then these articles are meaning less, because it's like comparing Pencillin and ACE inhibitors. It's not even the same class. Well i hope you dont take offend by that either. Is there a link to JMPT where i can download this articles? I m really looking forward to read them as soon as my CK is done and i need reading materials while going through different interview for residency in the upcoming match. Thanks again. And God Bless.

PS: Since u mentioned before that adjustment by DC can affect the sym/parasym nervous system, do you have any article in JMPT or any other peer-review article showing that manipulation at Cervical spine would reduce heart rate? Or anything to that affect? Since the Sym Nervous system has a lot direct actions to the heart, i would love to see that. Or Even the Parasym, I would love to be able to tell my attending that adjustment at C0/1 in patient would AFiB instead of vasovagal massage alone! Please Please give me something like that clinical/practical application, so i can use on my round or help my patients! Because Afib is very common. And if there is such direct connection btw nervous system and adjustment by DCs, I see the whole new potential like Asthma (bronchodilation affect via Beta 2), AFIB, GI, and a host of other system that directly control by nervous system. Do you have anything like that? Because i want to bring this up with my MD attending for sure, but i dont want him to ask where did i get this from and all I can say is "Not really double blind clinical trials studies". I think that would be bad for both of us no :)? Thanks again for your cooperation. And if this is really can occur, i see DCs will be part of hospital and medical management teams for sure; Maybe even admitting right as well. How does that sound?

hunteradam07
10-03-2008, 04:11 PM
my interest is in the future of young people making good decisions; decisions that are based on reality and truth. currently on this thread that career decision is b/t chiropractic and organized medicine (md/do). because of my numerous concerns regarding the "profession" of chiropractic, i could not recommend that someone become a chiropractor. the dc degree takes significant time and money; i dont think that it is unreasonable to expect an honorable time in practice, with sufficient income. i hope i have been clear.

khiro

I agree with you on this. I think there are many chiro schools that still teaching subluxation base theory and antivaccination/anti-medicine. As DC Webb pointed out on many of his posts. From my experience, I know for a fact that is still happened in school like Clev***** in LA, and Davenport (where BJ Palmer came from). Yes i know about BJ and his theory. They still using the same model as he did back in the days. What i mean by asking for better standard in chiropractic. I should start at education level and go all the way up to practice. How can a school like SCUH teaching one thing and other schools in the same field teaching something "far out there". Let put it this way, if i take physio, biochem, Ana, or even ethic in Philippines Medical School-I attended- or at UCLA or even in AUC, they still follow same concepts and same principal, Arent they? So Yes to put new standard you have to start from the bottom all the way to the top. From DC school to Swapp-meet! There has to be a fundamental change or shift in your idealology, because change is coming in the form of Genetic, stem cells, and many more. Where are these change in Chiro? Just like when MD has to stop bleeding people to death while trying to cure their fever back in the days-see i never said MD is perfect-But we did it. It was painful period for sure, and i m sure there are many many MDs at that time would go against it. However, look at how far has medical field progresses, while in the same amount of time chiro still stick to same concept of BJ Palmer in some schools while other trying to move on with the 21st Century. How is that productive? How is marketing at swap-meet and Walmart helping your profession imagine? Lastly , I cant agree with u more on the last statements about income and honorable practice. The fact is chiropractors have the highest default rate on their student loans than any other graduate professions-dont believe me do a google search on highest default rate in graduate professions or simply call up Fed student loans commission-this should sound some kind of alarm, if you decide to go DCs school, isnt it? And isnt this is what this orginal post was all about before all the personal attack?

khiro
10-03-2008, 05:46 PM
the advancement of any profession or industry begins in the education of its members and research of its product. period...unless you are the japanese and you piggy-back your product off of someone else's design and/or work, improve your product through better work ethic and then sell for less (still involves a better trained, educated work force). "education" does not only mean better instruction, but also a higher educated applicant, a deeper clinical experience, all of which would transform and move the chiropractic education into more of a mainstream process that involves more transparency, more oversight by "out-siders", etc.. the profession on the national level has been unable to move forward on most of this. i remember when the profession haggled over increasing the pre-requisites from 60 hours to 90 hours. texas and national wanted 90; palmer and life wanted 60. seeing no progress on the national level, the state of florida finally passed a law that all chiros will have a bachelors degree which forced most schools to become accredited by a regional body or the student can do a correspondence through excelsior or regents.

the only people scared of increasing educational requirements are those who run some of the schools like they own them. (oops, sid did own life didn't he?). i have said it before, most chiro students or those interested in entering chiro, are smart enough to do most anything. they are not dumb, but you must give them a reason to be a dc. i don't see the profession doing that.

let me show you power. not wanting to get into the school establishment business, but wanting to get chiropractic research (followed by a school) into a major college environment, the florida chiro association tried to partner with florida state university. one large orthopedic group in tallahassee caused such a stink and used every one of hunteradam's talking points to derail the negoiations (which had up to the very end been received well by fsu). another university in florida picked up this project; and hopefully it is a step toward standard education in the profession, although it will take years.

education is the key. although this should have already taken place, in the future it must be standard across all schools, and it must be backed up by the most recent research available. if something that has been taught for years is proven to be wrong (false) or if it is of no value, then it must be labeled as so. hopefully, research from this project in florida will answer many of hunteradam's concerns, for without research, the future is very bleak indeed. chiropractic does not have the luxury of having another industry help it along (big pharm for medicine, or how about the astounding advancements in the use of technology in medicine; brought to you by mds, ....uh, no...usually phds...again the benefits of advanced education). i use to joke that the most technological advancement for most chiropractic offices was the fax machine. ok, that was some years back, but you understand my lame point.

and that point is: that on a national "professional" level, advancement in education has been a bickering issue for years, there is disagreement on a whole range of issues. there has been advancement through some legislative actions (allowing dcs into the armed forces, as officers), but come on folks, how long past 1895 is soon enough? and this is my personal beef with the "profession" of chiropractic (not necessarily every other dcs way of practice).

khiro

GbrdTbrd
10-03-2008, 05:47 PM
Adamhunter: JMPT is a peer-reviewed journal primarily written by DC's, PhDs, and often with osteopaths and MD as authors or co-studiers. I don't particularly care if end-range loading or cavitation or percussive adjustments are what affect the nervous system. Many literature articles simply title them spinal manipulation. I'm not saying PT's couldn't produce the same effect with end-range loading. I'm trying to get across the effects of manual therapies, in particular spinal manual therapy and the fact that it has much more than joint effects. You asked me to produce article to support the effects of spinal manipulation on the nervous system and that's what I'm doing. I don't have time to answer any more right now and I've got to go away for the weekend (maybe I can fit in a swap meet too) so I can't completely answer your questions until next week.

hunteradam07
10-03-2008, 07:10 PM
Adamhunter: JMPT is a peer-reviewed journal primarily written by DC's, PhDs, and often with osteopaths and MD as authors or co-studiers. I don't particularly care if end-range loading or cavitation or percussive adjustments are what affect the nervous system. Many literature articles simply title them spinal manipulation. I'm not saying PT's couldn't produce the same effect with end-range loading. I'm trying to get across the effects of manual therapies, in particular spinal manual therapy and the fact that it has much more than joint effects. You asked me to produce article to support the effects of spinal manipulation on the nervous system and that's what I'm doing. I don't have time to answer any more right now and I've got to go away for the weekend (maybe I can fit in a swap meet too) so I can't completely answer your questions until next week.
Let me say thanks for the clarification on JMPT. And if anyway i can download these studies, please let me know. Bt here is the issue, you said that you dont care what kind of technique can provide nervous system result, i disagree w u whole heart here. Because it's about the right technique and scope of practice isnt it! I remembered a few yrs back, DCs was up in arms about some PTs are cracking the patients neck and DCs said it's not within their scope of practice. I remember this very clearly during my time at CSUN. So it's at the heart of the matter, isnt it? What is your scope of practice? What tech are u claiming to product these studies? Because it's not your specific tech, you can't say it supports your point of views unless u are telling me what dc=pt. That is why medical field has PT and PMNR. PMNR are train medical doctor who specialist in rehab. So you cant borrow another group tech and say it works for DC scope of practice while raising hell when PT doing the same.
Take your time in searching these articles as i mention before (direct correlation btw chiropractic adjustments and heart/lungs/GI affects). I think if there is truth measureable connection there, if you only imaging how many people it will help. Please give me clinical/double trial research clearly states beyond a doubt that adjustment will either decrease heart rate, decrease BP/PR, or increase pul function test. Anything Solid concrete, so i can bring it to my attending. I would love to say that i found a new way to treat AFIB by adjusting pt neck, wouldnt you? If that is the case i wont mind taking afew weekend seminar on adjustment and get my DC licensed too. See I m pro-DC if the tech is proven! Please do it for humanity sake!

hunteradam07
10-03-2008, 07:16 PM
To Khiro,

Bravo for your honest and candid view on your own profession. I know it's hard sometimes to face the truth or be the voice a reason in the sea of chaos. Let me ask you this, if you know what u know now about your profession and all it's pit falls, would u do it again or going to another branch of health care? And that is orginal post! Please give us your opinion.

GbrdTbrd
10-06-2008, 03:13 PM
Let me say thanks for the clarification on JMPT. And if anyway i can download these studies, please let me know. Bt here is the issue, you said that you dont care what kind of technique can provide nervous system result, i disagree w u whole heart here. Because it's about the right technique and scope of practice isnt it! I remembered a few yrs back, DCs was up in arms about some PTs are cracking the patients neck and DCs said it's not within their scope of practice. I remember this very clearly during my time at CSUN. So it's at the heart of the matter, isnt it? What is your scope of practice? What tech are u claiming to product these studies? Because it's not your specific tech, you can't say it supports your point of views unless u are telling me what dc=pt. That is why medical field has PT and PMNR. PMNR are train medical doctor who specialist in rehab. So you cant borrow another group tech and say it works for DC scope of practice while raising hell when PT doing the same.
Take your time in searching these articles as i mention before (direct correlation btw chiropractic adjustments and heart/lungs/GI affects). I think if there is truth measureable connection there, if you only imaging how many people it will help. Please give me clinical/double trial research clearly states beyond a doubt that adjustment will either decrease heart rate, decrease BP/PR, or increase pul function test. Anything Solid concrete, so i can bring it to my attending. I would love to say that i found a new way to treat AFIB by adjusting pt neck, wouldnt you? If that is the case i wont mind taking afew weekend seminar on adjustment and get my DC licensed too. See I m pro-DC if the tech is proven! Please do it for humanity sake!

Every time I (or someone else) actually answers your request for this or that, you change what you want or sidetrack the discussion to something else. This chiro-bash is actually your hobby and I didn't realize it till now. I gave you peer-reviewed articles as research to support my discussion but I realize that I'm wasting my time with you because you change the rules each time. It's amazing you have this kind of time to continually do this stuff. I hope you are as devoted to the truth in medicine as you are to discrediting what we do. I don't think there's a Chiro-Busting practice residency program so you might still want to stay in something more traditional such as Family Prac, Int. Med, etc. Good-bye

khiro
10-06-2008, 03:23 PM
i am on record as saying that if i was a young person i would not consider chiropractic for a variety of reasons already discussed. that doesn't totally negate the value of the practice; but the profession has problems.

there are those who are visionary; great predictors in all industries. then we have our last CEO of wachovia, before steel, that bought 122 billion of so-called bad loans which supposedly sunk the bank. very few 22 year-olds are going to know the in's and out's of chiropractic that 21 years of practice can give you. there is a place for someone in chiropractic i am sure; there was a place for mother theresa to do her life's calling. however, i will bet you (a sin, i know) that even mother T went into her commitment knowing as much as possible about what to expect from her decisions. if i was trying to decide what i was to do for a good part of my life, i would want people to give me wise counsel; not voo-doo. my experiences with the profession differ from others, i hope.

my success in practice has been due to a large part inspite of the chiropractic profession, and not because of it. what professional successes we do see takes forever to come; usually after lots of in-house bickering and dissension. i am very thankful for God's protection of my practice.

but what about the young person who is intrigued by chiropractic. who knows dr. jones, who seems "rich", and is called "doctor". shouldn't they know everything possible before beginning such an important task and incurring a ton of debt? why of course they should; and then armed with all the good and bad come to an informed decision about whether to go chiro or some other field (perhaps even out of healthcare all together). i just want those who decide to go to be aware of as much as possible these things, and then follow your calling with passion.

khiro

hunteradam07
10-06-2008, 03:58 PM
i am on record as saying that if i was a young person i would not consider chiropractic for a variety of reasons already discussed. that doesn't totally negate the value of the practice; but the profession has problems.

there are those who are visionary; great predictors in all industries. then we have our last CEO of wachovia, before steel, that bought 122 billion of so-called bad loans which supposedly sunk the bank. very few 22 year-olds are going to know the in's and out's of chiropractic that 21 years of practice can give you. there is a place for someone in chiropractic i am sure; there was a place for mother theresa to do her life's calling. however, i will bet you (a sin, i know) that even mother T went into her commitment knowing as much as possible about what to expect from her decisions. if i was trying to decide what i was to do for a good part of my life, i would want people to give me wise counsel; not voo-doo. my experiences with the profession differ from others, i hope.

my success in practice has been due to a large part inspite of the chiropractic profession, and not because of it. what professional successes we do see takes forever to come; usually after lots of in-house bickering and dissension. i am very thankful for God's protection of my practice.

but what about the young person who is intrigued by chiropractic. who knows dr. jones, who seems "rich", and is called "doctor". shouldn't they know everything possible before beginning such an important task and incurring a ton of debt? why of course they should; and then armed with all the good and bad come to an informed decision about whether to go chiro or some other field (perhaps even out of healthcare all together). i just want those who decide to go to be aware of as much as possible these things, and then follow your calling with passion.

khiro

Thanks for your candid view. Good luck on ur practice.

hunteradam07
10-06-2008, 04:12 PM
Every time I (or someone else) actually answers your request for this or that, you change what you want or sidetrack the discussion to something else. This chiro-bash is actually your hobby and I didn't realize it till now. I gave you peer-reviewed articles as research to support my discussion but I realize that I'm wasting my time with you because you change the rules each time. It's amazing you have this kind of time to continually do this stuff. I hope you are as devoted to the truth in medicine as you are to discrediting what we do. I don't think there's a Chiro-Busting practice residency program so you might still want to stay in something more traditional such as Family Prac, Int. Med, etc. Good-bye

1st of all you provide a few articles that on manipulation as a whole, not adjustment technique which is what DCs do, isnt it? If it's all the same, then why dont you let PTs do you adjustment tech as well? Instead of trying to limit to your definition. That is the heart of the issue isnt it? What is it that you do in term of your adjustment tech? Because it's not the same-exact-tech in the research articles, you cant say it's supporting your theory. Like i say i will try to download and read it once i m done with my CK. But if i m reading the tech that far different from what you do (adjustment/crack), then i dont see how is it that u claim to support your point of view. It's literally like comparing apple and orange. If chiro adjustment/crack is the same as end range loading or mobilization by PT, then say so. But i dont think so! Here is some of exert of an article that written by DC, which define your tech and practice (For full article please read my other post):

"Limitations and Dangers of Chiropractic Manipulation

As a vaguely defined treatment approach with a broad scope of practice, chiropractic remains controversial and may pose a threat for persons who cannot distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate use of spinal manipulation. Reviews of the literature have revealed evidence that spinal manipulation may be of value in treating some types of back pain [22]. There are many good chiropractors who offer effective treatment for back pain and other musculoskeletal problems. But few chiropractors limit their practice to the care of mechanical-type problems; most offer spinal manipulation as a method of restoring and maintaining health. Chiropractors' use of a variety of unproven treatment methods and adjustive techniques make chiropractic treatment even more problematic. Some techniques entail physical risk while others pose risk by diverting the patient away from proper medical care for visceral problems.
A 1991 survey by the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners found that 26% of chiropractors "specialize" in adjusting the upper cervical spine as a method of treating visceral disease and back pain [20]. Cervical manipulation is not often indicated. Inappropriate use of such treatment poses risk of injury to vertebral arteries in the neck. A RAND study reported in 1996 that only 11.1% of reported indications for cervical manipulation were considered appropriate [23]. The rate of vertebrobasilar accidents and other complications that occur as a result of cervical manipulation was estimated to be 1.46 per l 000 000 manipulations. These numbers are more significant when it is realized that each patient receives a large number of manipulations, most of which may be unnecessary, thus increasing the risk of stroke per patient.
Risk may outweigh benefit when 88.9% of all cervical manipulations cannot be labeled as appropriate. Some observers feel that cervical manipulation involving extreme rotation of the top 2 cervical vertebrae should never be done. In many cases, the desired effect of cervical manipulation can be obtained through rest, exercise, mobilization, traction, and other methods of treatment. Obviously, the use of cervical manipulation and its dangers should be subjected to intense scrutiny. The incidence of stroke following cervical manipulation may be much higher than indicated when reviewing the existing literature. Many cases of stroke caused by cervical manipulation may not be recorded as such because patients don't always report previous manipulations they may have received. All patients reporting stroke symptoms should be asked if they have undergone recent cervical manipulation.
Gimmicks and Ineffective Treatment Methods

A few chiropractors do not perform hands-on spinal manipulation. Surveys indicate that the average chiropractor uses 5 or more different manipulative techniques [20], if not to meet the competition of chiropractors who offer a particular technique then to be able to use a different technique if the patient does not get better. This reduces chances of losing the patient to another chiropractor.
It has been reported that 51.2% of chiropractors include use of a handheld, spring-loaded Activator mallet to tap "misaligned" vertebrae back into place [20], an apparently ineffective treatment method that may have nothing to offer but a placebo effect. I know many chiropractors who use such an instrument. Such treatment is not an effective replacement for appropriate use of hands-on spinal manipulation under the proper indications.
At least 97 different adjustive techniques have been used by chiropractors in recent years [24], including such dubious methods as applied kinesiology, reportedly used by 37.2% of chiropractors [20]. Applied kinesiology is a nonsensical method of testing muscle strength to detect diseases and deficiencies that may then be treated with spinal adjustments or nutritional supplements. (Chiropractors who manipulate specific vertebrae as a treatment for disease prefer to call the treatment a spinal adjustment rather than a spinal manipulation.)
In many cases, the only thing the various adjustive techniques have in common is that they are all unproven and all are claimed to be most effective for removing "nerve interference." Using a plethora of inconsistent adjustive techniques and producing "results" that cannot be replicated, chiropractors are holding on to the subluxation theory in order to maintain their status as "alternative" primary care physicians in a "separate and distinct profession." Chiropractors continue to offer treatment to persons of all ages for a variety of organic and musculoskeletal ailments. The greatest threat may be to infants and children whose parents are lured by claims that spinal adjustments at an early age can prevent the development of disease and that vaccination may not be necessary.
Chiropractic Treatment of Children

An outrageous but typical example of the danger of the chiropractic theory put into practice was brought to my attention recently when I received a copy of a letter requesting information about chiropractic treatment of children. A Florida father was concerned about the treatment his 3 children (ages 7, 2, and 1) were receiving from his estranged wife's chiropractor. Each child was being treated 3 times a week with an average billing of $120 per week. The 7-year-old was being treated for cerebral palsy and the 1-year-old for ear infection. The insurance billing described the treatment as "spinal disorder care."
In my 43 years of practice as a chiropractor, I have heard such stories many times. Some chiropractors recruit families with children who are then placed on lifetime "maintenance care" to maintain "optimum health."
A front-page article in the March 18, 1993, issue of the Wall Street Journal castigated chiropractors for offering treatment to children as a method of expanding their practice. Labeling chiropractic as "a 19th-century philosophy wearing the white smock of science," the article condemned chiropractic for treating children for "legions of childhood afflictions" and for not supporting immunization [25].
In response, the American Chiropractic Association placed a full-page ad in the March 22, 1993, issue of the Wall Street Journal claiming that the article focused on an "isolated number of sensational and tragic occurrences." Denying any wrongdoing by chiropractors, the ACA response was designed more to protect the image of the chiropractic profession than to protect the public. Chiropractors are trained to diagnose, the ad said, and are "obligated -- morally and professionally -- to refer all patients to medical doctors and other specialists when treatment is outside their scope of practice." The ad also denied that chiropractors use spinal manipulation as a substitute for vaccination or for the use of antibiotics in treating infections, despite the fact that many chiropractors claim to do so. The ACA maintained that no single healing art has all the answers to the many health problems affecting mankind and that it is the right of patients to select the health-care provider of their choice. "Today," the ad concluded, "conscientious health practitioners work as a team for the benefit of the patient."
It is the consensus of medical and scientific opinion that chiropractors should not be allowed to treat infants and children. Using a limited treatment method based on the subluxation theory, chiropractors do not have adequate training in the diagnosis and treatment of pediatric ailments. And they do not have recourse to antibiotics and other medical treatment methods that are essential in combating potentially fatal or crippling illnesses. Yet, according to a special report in the November 1993 issue of Pediatric Management, children account for an estimated 20 million visits to chiropractors each year, compared to 87 million visits to pediatricians (in 1989) [26]. Many of these children are receiving spinal adjustments for ear infection and other common and often self-limiting childhood ailments.
Chiropractors were caught red-handed treating infants and children for ear infections and other ailments when ABC-TV's 20/20 secretly videotaped visits to 17 chiropractors who professed to treat children. Television viewers were astonished when the program was aired on February 4, 1994, as chiropractors were shown diagnosing and treating ear infections with a variety of nonsensical methods based on a variety of causes, ranging from subluxated vertebrae to nutritional deficiency, weak glands, food sensitivity, and a short leg. Two chiropractors differed on which leg was shorter. One infant with recurring ear infection was taken to several chiropractors, two of whom used surrogate muscle testing in which the diagnosis was made by using applied kinesiology to test strength in the mother's arm while she was in contact with the infant. Although a pediatrician had determined beforehand that the children's ear infections could be handled with antibiotics or would eventually be outgrown, all the chiropractors offered treatment lasting from several weeks to a lifetime.
It is not hard to find chiropractors who treat infants and children. Despite such articles as those in the Wall Street Journal, the chiropractic movement to treat children is growing. According to the International Chiropractic Association, whose Council on Chiropractic Pediatrics offers the profession's only Board Certified Diplomate in Chiropractic Pediatrics: "The Council on Chiropractic Pediatrics is one of the fastest growing specialty groups of the International Chiropractic Association." [27]
The World Chiropractic Alliance (WCA), an organization of straight chiropractors who believe that the chiropractic adjustment is sufficient in the treatment of most ailments, reports that there is "overwhelming evidence" that spinal adjustments should begin at birth and continue for life [28]. WCA's mission is to "promote a vertebral subluxation-free world." The president of the WCA is also editor and publisher of the Chiropractic Journal, "read and respected by more doctors of chiropractic than any other professional publication in the world."
In 1996 the Chiropractic Journal published Chiropractic First, The Fastest Growing Healthcare Choice . . . Before Drugs or Surgery. This book recommends that everyone should be checked for nerve interference from birth. Chiropractic care is recommended for children who have any of these symptoms:

Fever, colic, croup, allergies, wheezing, poor posture, stomach ache, hearing loss, neck/back pain, leg/hip/foot pain, numbness, headaches, coughs/colds, asthma, bed wetting, bronchitis, constipation, weakness/fatigue, ear infections, skin problems, one leg shorter, irritability, neck aches, nervousness, learning disorders, sinus problems, eye problems, scoliosis, arthritis, fatigue, pain in joints, shoulder/arm pain, poor concentration [29].
The market for chiropractic treatment of children is so great that some practice-building programs for chiropractors are based on pediatric care. A chiropractic research foundation called the Traumatic Birth Research Foundation, for example, which claims to be committed to locating and correcting vertebral subluxations in newborn babies, is being promoted as "the most cost-effective, innovative chiropractic marketing program to come along in years." Chiropractors are encouraged to invite mothers and mothers-to-be to participate in a "chiropractic mothers and mothers-to-be program" to spread the word about the benefits of chiropractic manipulation for newborn babies. The message conveyed is that failure to correct spinal subluxations at birth could result in disease later in life [30]."

It's my hobby to bring the truth to my patients and prevent them from pseudoscience doctor that made wild and unfound claim (like dont vaccine your children kind of thing). And I will continue to seek the truth doesnt matter how uncomfortable it makes some people. Thanks for your posts.

longchode
10-10-2008, 02:17 PM
See what happens when you don't play nice in the sandbox??? Everyone ignores you and your stuck looking up info to make yourself feel better about bashing the so called fake sciences...

hunteradam07
10-10-2008, 04:02 PM
"The truth shall set you free!" The reason why no DC dares to make any comments on my post, because they know they cant scientifically disproof what these articles (which i quoted from) are false in anyway! U think if the authors have given wrong informations or false research, DCs wont jump all over it, please! The silent is proven to be louder than any article that i can provide. In term of debate, it happens when the opposition has nothing else to say. The silent only means confirmation for these articles and further proof of the lack of substance/scientific research in chiropractic. Trust me i am happy that the truth about chiropractic is shinning through even with all the personal attack! Like i said if i can save one person from going to dc school and make one of the biggest mistake in his or her life, then it's all worth it! Thanks for everyone for joining the search for the true! Keep up the good works and dont work so hard at swap-meet!

longchode
10-10-2008, 05:24 PM
Like i said if i can save one person from going to dc school and make one of the biggest mistake in his or her life, then it's all worth it! Thanks for everyone for joining the search for the true! Keep up the good works and dont work so hard at swap-meet! Is that what this is about??? You don't want people to become chiropractors or are you against chiropractors seeing patients as well??? Can I ask why you are so biased as well??? Did a chiropractor do something to you??? Do you trash massage therapists, physical therapists, athletic trainers, etc...??? I'm just curious. http://www.planetc1.com/n/images/get-off-my-back-chiropractor.jpg

hunteradam07
10-10-2008, 07:26 PM
Is that what this is about??? You don't want people to become chiropractors or are you against chiropractors seeing patients as well??? Can I ask why you are so biased as well??? Did a chiropractor do something to you??? Do you trash massage therapists, physical therapists, athletic trainers, etc...??? I'm just curious. http://www.planetc1.com/n/images/get-off-my-back-chiropractor.jpg
Sorry none of these above. In fact, I had two closed friends in Medical school that were DCs (many years) and then decided to go back Med school. I can even name one of them, Ethanhunter has been on this forum before. I love massage therapist, i used to go to them often in PI. Trainners, i know some good ones from CSUN (Cal State Univ Northridge, if not the best PT program in the country). Why does it have to be some dcs hurted me-to have a opinion on chiropractic? Once again instead of addressing the opinions by experts that written these articles, you make it sounds personal. Like some how that would distract readers of these articles from facing the real scientific research. Do u also think that the DC and PHD who wrote these articles have been hurted by chiropractors too? They seem to have very strong opinions/researchs against chiro. Well like i said it's not about me, it's about your profession lack of creditibilities/researchs that lead other med professionals look down or not accepting chiro. And unless u going to address that nothing will change. Enjoy your Saturday swap-meet spinal screening lecture. I know it's a big day for you guys!

GbrdTbrd
10-13-2008, 10:57 PM
Several studies have shown that chiropractic adjustments can influence blood pressure.

1. Atlas vertebra realignment and achievement of arterial pressure goal in hypertensive patients: a pilot study. (Published in Journal of Human Hypertension, Bakris, et.al. 2007 May:21(5):347-52). The authors used a double blind , placebo-controlled design using 50 subjects with Stage 1 HTN. Randomized to receive Upper Cervical Chiropractic (NUCCA) procedure or sham procedure. No anti-HTN meds used during eight week duration. Results: systolic BP (-17mmHg for NUCCA vs -3 for placebo)

2. McKnight, DeBoer. Preliminary study of blood pressure changes in normotensive subjective undergoing chiropractic care. JMPT 1988 Aug;11(4):261-6

3. Yates, Lamping, Abram, Wright. Effects of chiro. tx on blood pressure and anxiety: a randomized, controlled trial. JMPT 1988Dec;11(6):484-8

4. Knutson GA. Significant changes in systolic blood pressure post vectored upper cervical adjustment vs resting control groups: a possible effect of the cervicosympathetic and/ or prerssor reflex. JMPT 2001 Feb;25(2):101-9.

These articles support the chiropractic misaligment/subluxation being able to influence the sympathetic-parasympathetic nervous system balance, and hence blood pressure. The basic theme uses a similar mechanical -neurological-sympathetic-vascular-visceral model as follows:

1 A spinal joint disorder alters the afferent input into the central nervous system.
2. The aberrant afferent input reflexes into the sympathetic NS, resulting in increased sustained sympathetic tone.
3. Increased sustained sympathetic or altered parasympathetic tone can manifest as HTN, and improvement with chiropractic joint adjusting is tenable.

hunteradam07
10-14-2008, 04:42 PM
Great these are more likely article that i m looking for when i m done with my CK! I hope to be able to download a full article and read them. Is there a link to them or i have to subscribe? The one thing on the Stage I HTN study, i think 50 subjects are way too small for something like this. I wonder how long the lower BP last in term of post-adjustment. Furthermore, what is more effective for 1st line of management in stage I HTN, MD would recommend diet and exercise 1st before any pharma compare to C0-C1 manipulation? Now what is something that would totally worth doing study on, because it cuts at heart of the treatment. I will go over these articles for sure, i hope i can download them or something. I need to see the whole article. Thanks

hunteradam07
10-14-2008, 04:59 PM
well so far i checked out the first journal. I cant get the full article only abstract. And it's only 8 weeks study for 50 pts! HTN is a chronic care condition specially at stage I can go up and down depend on many factors that is why for Dx of HTN must be done 3 seperate times w elevated BP. Therefore, 8 weeks are not enough time to really see the effect of adjustment on HTN. We do know that massage of the cartoid body decrease HR, so that is proven and use as tx for AFIB. That is as far as i got since it's only a summary. But the biggest thing is this is not a peer review journal like JPMPT!

GbrdTbrd
10-14-2008, 11:30 PM
Look Adamhunter, you and I both know that spinal manipulation is not about to replace pharmaceutical intervention for the control of certain diseases; I'm not trying to assert that and you know it. You continually make extremely strong assertions that there is no scientific evidence for spinal manipulation, especially for visceral conditions, and by extension, that the modern chiropractic practice has no scientific basis.

I have presented a small sampling of evidence in this most recent post and in a post previously which details just a little of the literature which is supportive of what we do (and other manual practitioners). Please don't go down this hair-splitting road of what manipulation is etc, etc. Most chiropractors use a variety of techniques including high-velocity, instrument adjusting, active-release for soft tissue, stretching, trigger point work, etc. etc.

If you're using places like quackwatch for your information, it belies how truly sheltered you are in school and how you really don't want to know the truth. It is disappointing that you blatantly ignore the enormous failures of so-called medical wisdom to which you so vigorously defend. Thalidomide, ERT, Vioxx, failed back surgery syndrome, etc., etc. are just a few of the examples of how medical science has killed or maimed thousands of individuals and ruined many lives. (What's that biblical saying about something in your brother's eye?) You continue to pretend and disinform anyone you can just how unscientific chiropractic is yet the lay public is often well aware of just how dangerous medicine can be. I say this not to put down the practice of medicine because traditional medical treatment is and will remain the front line of treatment for many conditions. I will not be telling people to go off their HTN meds because I'm adjusting C1. I will not be telling people to stop using their Singulair because I'm adjusting T1. I will ask people to monitor their health to see if other beneficial changes may be taking place because of what we're doing.

Most importantly, there is a growing body of scientific evidence that spinal manipulation may affect the body in ways that were laughed at previously. I won't stand by and have you deliberately ignore the evidence and mislead people. This evidence has been produced by all kinds of well-respected journals that have nothing to do with chiropractic which explains the links between spinal joints, discs, the nervous system, and somatic and visceral structures which can allow for the development of new treatments which might include spinal manipulation/massage/etc. I'm disappointed that someone like you who seems to like to learn and is obviously bright but continues to engage in the assassination of chiropractic. You really don't want to face the truth that we really do help a lot of people and sometimes for more visceral type problems. You'd like to discount it all and I wish I knew what caused you to feel this way. Some of my colleagues have openly admitted the shortcomings of our profession which are more related to politics than anything. No one's arguing (especially those on this forum) that having a chiro degree affords us a lot less scope of practice and is not as respected as the MD degree. I'm not sure why you've chosen this track (chiro-assassination) instead of really listening to and acknowledging that we are in fact, a lot more scientific that we were in the past and embracing the fact that there is exciting, new research which can and should be done in the area of manual therapy. I can have rational, sensible discussions with orthopedic surgeons and Family Practice MD's about what I'm doing and they don't have a problem sending their patient to me (and there are many chiros who are getting referrals from MD's) yet you persist in trying to negate and pretend this isn't happening. You're obviously an intelligent person and it's too bad that you're eaten up with this topic. And to think you might spend a significant amount of your patient encounters and free time spent doing this is actually quite silly and definitely not in the best interest of the patient.

Remember that organized medicine did its best to contain and eliminate chiropractic for years but it survived for one main reason: enough people wanted us around. Do remember that a major court case Wilk vs. AMA upheld that the AMA (and medicine at large) must cease and desist from the monopoly of medicine. You need to be careful who finds out that your policy is to not refer to chiropractors; you could find a lawsuit against you. Better yet, let go of some of this negative crap (which you want to believe is the status quo for our profession) and get to know some chiros around your town and find out how they treat patients. You might find it to be a tremendous relief to refer a patient who's being a real pain to you and you don't know what else to do. Try a few neck and back patients and see what your patients think. We really can be a terrific resource for you if you'll let some of this hatred go. It's sad for me to see new people coming out of medical school with this attitude, especially when a lot of your soon to be colleagues refer to chiros or in fact go to one themself.

hunteradam07
10-15-2008, 03:12 AM
Whoa that is a lot of anger coming from your post. All i said was could only read the summary and i pointed out some issues with study in term of sample size and peer-review. And I am not the only, here is the sample of what DC Webb said about the same study, you can also read his post as well:

"Iam glad you posted that. For my research elective in chiro school, we some what replicated that ONE study. We found that the same percentage of people's BP lowered after just laying down for 5 minutes, or after sitting for 7 minutes. Also, people who smoked had the greatest amount of drop in BP after a cigarette. Second was people who had a 15 minutes massage on their neck and shoulders.

Chiropractic adjustment to C1, C2, the entire cerival spine and the whole spine were also tested. The adjustments had the LEAST amount of effect on BP.

Sorry..
__________________
John Webb, MS, DC, CCEP, DAAIM, FAAPM
SMU
STUDENT
MD 2010
MBA 2009


I didnt said that i want to exam all the article and look at their merit rite? If the articles are not up the scientific standard, then It's not worth the paper it written on. So dont be so angry when MD, PHD, Or Do actually want to ask if your studies are Gold standard. We just sticky issue about proven research that is all.
Sure Medicine has tons of issues, but we progress and as we continue to move forward in our field, we set out strict standards like: proven research/ Gold standard/peer-review/retro-study, etc... So we can eliminate more mistakes, which you mentioned before. But that is the point isnt it? As the standard medical research is set and scope of practice is established through research, we can eliminate more and more mistakes. It's unexact science that medicine is, but we still try for perfection! Now if you think that same standard is applied in Chiro, then i dont think we have anything more to discuss. Because your research standard and your scope of practice is not defined, which lead to so many problems w ur profession. Can you tell me that a dc down the street from your office is not telling his patients to adjust their neck to lower BP? Can you tell any of your other DCs dont put vitamins in pts mouth and test muscles strength? Can you tell me that the dc a block from you is not telling his pts not to vaccine their children? Bottomline, if you dont have strict standard of research as well as practice, then you are endanger your pts. It's hard to believe why would orthopedist or Family doctors would refer to DCs when they have PT or PMNR around the corner, but i hope it's truth for your case. Like i said i will continue to read and point out inaccuracy of your reseach that you presented to me, not because i want to put you down. But i am challenging you and ur profession to do better for your patients. And until you can have definitive research to show that chiropractic has measureable outcome (sample size more than 50 people) on somatic system, i think you should not tried sell it as such. Thank you for your input.

GbrdTbrd
10-15-2008, 02:12 PM
Yes, it does make me angry to try to deal with someone who has no intention of changing their position regardless of the information they're given. I don't have a problem with your position on what's appropriate for treatment of medical problems (diabetes, HTN, etc.); there's no way I'd rely solely on spinal adjusting to treat these problems and 95% of chiropractors don't do that either. What really bothers me is the fact that in your mind, the only people should be treating NMS problems are MDs and PTs. We successfully treat NMS problems everyday with a variety of techniques and procedures. You pretend that virtually all procedures and treatments in medicine and PT have been proven with double-blind studies and have gold-standard evidence to support them. This is absolutely not the case and these procedure and interventions are not necessarily more effective, safe, or scientific just because they are "standard". Again, I reference the ***** Eddy study at Duke regarding the scientific basis of traditional medicine.

bookite
10-15-2008, 02:43 PM
well so far i checked out the first journal. I cant get the full article only abstract. And it's only 8 weeks study for 50 pts! HTN is a chronic care condition specially at stage I can go up and down depend on many factors that is why for Dx of HTN must be done 3 seperate times w elevated BP. Therefore, 8 weeks are not enough time to really see the effect of adjustment on HTN. We do know that massage of the cartoid body decrease HR, so that is proven and use as tx for AFIB. That is as far as i got since it's only a summary. But the biggest thing is this is not a peer review journal like JPMPT!

First Carotid Massage is not a treatment for Afib. You can use it with SVT but will most likely need pharm for difinitive treatment.
Now a sample size of fifty is small but many studies start with small samples. A larger study would add power but a small size for this type of study is fine to show that something automonic happened post adjustment. This shows us that moving bones may have effect far beyond the local area of manipulation. Additional studies can be done to increase our knowledge and I'm sure as the chiro world increases research this may be a focus.
I am not here to crush your "I need research before I will agree with something", you have to realize there is a wide spectrum of people and there is a place for manipulation in healthcare. Some people don't like the I know everything attitude that many MDs have, maybe some find comfort in the fact that their alternative healthcare provider spends more time with them.
As a soon to be MD you also have to realize it is not your job to place your values or opnions on your patients. You are there to make recommendation and then support your patient in their decision. This could mean not vaccinating a kid because that is what the parents want eventhough you know it is the best thing for the child. It also could mean you stand aside as the patient takes herbs for depression or anxiety. You can say the most effective treatment you know is pharm but in the end the decision is not yours but your patients.

Some advise: Stop wasting your time trying to disprove the world of chiropactic. Find what you want to do with your life and learn all about it so when you are the expert you can treat your patient with the best of your abilities.

hunteradam07
10-15-2008, 04:44 PM
Bookite, you are rite about SVT treatment. Thanks for point out that would help me on my CK. I only hope to be as competent as you are when i m in 1st yr residency. The fact that you were a DC and now becoming EM doc speak volume for itself, because if it's all honky dorry with chiro you wouldnt have drop out of your practice. Furthermore, if physical medicine is what ur calling, then you would do PMNR instead of EM. You can slam me all you want but at the end of the day look yourself in the mirror and ask Am I a MD or DC? If you want to be a dc, then drop out of your residency and continue to practice and i am sure you will be successful. Dont be the 50% statistic drop out that i hear so much about in chiropractic. Or if not then finish your residency, then go back and open your chiropractic office. Either way if you really want to be truthful to yourself, then i think you know the answer. As for me and my pts, i can only inform them my opinion. it's up to them to make the necessary choice. But i wont beat around the bush about what i think. For me to get the correct information to put out for my patients, i need a bigger study size than 50 pts. Did u recognize that study was in 1988? Where is the bigger sample size study follow up? You think if it's a Gold-standard and peer-review article, they wouldnt spend the funding for something as important as that? Did u read DC Webb own reseach study on the same article? I never said that i m the best MD on earth or medicine offers all the answer, but i m searching for the truth and i m truth to myself. I hope that would be enough for u and my pts. Good luck in your residency.

As for the other post, 95% of all DCs using the rite tech, Here is what DC. Homola wrote on the subject after he did his own study ( U can read the full article in my other post):

"Gimmicks and Ineffective Treatment Methods

A few chiropractors do not perform hands-on spinal manipulation. Surveys indicate that the average chiropractor uses 5 or more different manipulative techniques [20], if not to meet the competition of chiropractors who offer a particular technique then to be able to use a different technique if the patient does not get better. This reduces chances of losing the patient to another chiropractor.
It has been reported that 51.2% of chiropractors include use of a handheld, spring-loaded Activator mallet to tap "misaligned" vertebrae back into place [20], an apparently ineffective treatment method that may have nothing to offer but a placebo effect. I know many chiropractors who use such an instrument. Such treatment is not an effective replacement for appropriate use of hands-on spinal manipulation under the proper indications.
At least 97 different adjustive techniques have been used by chiropractors in recent years [24], including such dubious methods as applied kinesiology, reportedly used by 37.2% of chiropractors [20]. Applied kinesiology is a nonsensical method of testing muscle strength to detect diseases and deficiencies that may then be treated with spinal adjustments or nutritional supplements. (Chiropractors who manipulate specific vertebrae as a treatment for disease prefer to call the treatment a spinal adjustment rather than a spinal manipulation.)
In many cases, the only thing the various adjustive techniques have in common is that they are all unproven and all are claimed to be most effective for removing "nerve interference." Using a plethora of inconsistent adjustive techniques and producing "results" that cannot be replicated, chiropractors are holding on to the subluxation theory in order to maintain their status as "alternative" primary care physicians in a "separate and distinct profession." Chiropractors continue to offer treatment to persons of all ages for a variety of organic and musculoskeletal ailments. The greatest threat may be to infants and children whose parents are lured by claims that spinal adjustments at an early age can prevent the development of disease and that vaccination may not be necessary."

So that is the evident i go by when i ask for standard of practice. Yes there are some MDs that dont use Gold Standard of practice, but they are putting themselves endanger for fat malpract law suit. And that is good thing, becaus i would hope to have the same treatment for common dis from one MD to another. Furthermore, U gave me a list of article to support your point of view, I only have time to read one abstract so far, and give you my take on it. Would you rahter me accept all/any research without actually reading them? Is that how you look up your research to prove your point? Anything that have the same concept as what u are saying and damn the context? Are these the same standard of chiropractic research that suppose to be unbias? Or would you rather me accept these articles on faith like faith healing kind of thing? Like i said medicine is not perfect, but we are trying. I hope chiro would try a little hard that is all. Well enjoy the rest of the week and try not to marketing too hard.

bookite
10-15-2008, 05:41 PM
Bookite, you are rite about SVT treatment. Thanks for point out that would help me on my CK. NP. I only hope to be as competent as you are when i m in 1st yr residency. I hope you will be as well. The fact that you were a DC and now becoming EM doc speak volume for itself, because if it's all honky dorry with chiro you wouldnt have drop out of your practice. Furthermore, if physical medicine is what ur calling, then you would do PMNR instead of EM. You can slam me all you want but at the end of the day look yourself in the mirror and ask Am I a MD or DC? If you want to be a dc, then drop out of your residency and continue to practice and i am sure you will be successful. Dont be the 50% statistic drop out that i hear so much about in chiropractic. Or if not then finish your residency, then go back and open your chiropractic office. Either way if you really want to be truthful to yourself, then i think you know the answer. As for me and my pts, i can only inform them my opinion. it's up to them to make the necessary choice. But i wont beat around the bush about what i think. For me to get the correct information to put out for my patients, i need a bigger study size than 50 pts. Did u recognize that study was in 1988? Where is the bigger sample size study follow up? You think if it's a Gold-standard and peer-review article, they wouldnt spend the funding for something as important as that? Did u read DC Webb own reseach study on the same article? I never said that i m the best MD on earth or medicine offers all the answer, but i m searching for the truth and i m truth to myself. I hope that would be enough for u and my pts. Good luck in your residency.

As for the other post, 95% of all DCs using the rite tech, Here is what DC. Homola wrote on the subject after he did his own study ( U can read the full article in my other post):


Once again you copy and past. Why don't you read and come up with your own conclusion. From that you can put together a series of questions you might have and ask.
As for me leaving chiropractic I had my reasons one being that I didn't like physical medicine -> this is why i didn't go into PM&R. But I still feel DCs have their place in healthcare.
As for research let me educate you on why DCs have been slow with it.
The NIH gave MASS General 26million and thats only one hospital. NIH spending in Chiropractic is <3million for the whole profession. There are no pharm companies to fund research and few people who do it. This is one reason you don't see the same volume of research as you see in medicine. If you would like some current stuff look up Deed and don harrison as they produce good research on their own dime without NIH or Pharm money.

If you have original questions and not copy and past your posts I will try to answer them to the best of my abilities.

hunteradam07
10-15-2008, 06:57 PM
I copy and paste it, because it supposed to reEnforce my point of view! Plus i want to give the whole quote, so noone can say i changed the quote in anyway. I think it calls supporting my argument. As for your decision to change field, that is great. Because u know what u like and u wont mind to chase after it. However, you still are the statistic of DC drop out which many "real DCs" look down upon. In the end for whatever your decision to change career, you have to say that getting ur dc was a 100G mistake since you are no longer using it. Which was the original post of this forum rite? Should i go to DC school or Do school?
So be honest and give the answer that might help someone from making the same decision! I talked to 2 of my DC turned MD friends and they told me all they heard during chiro school recruit were u are going to be a doctor and make of money as DCs. But at the end, you knw the rest!

bookite
10-15-2008, 07:13 PM
I copy and paste it, because it supposed to reEnforce my point of view! Plus i want to give the whole quote, so noone can say i changed the quote in anyway. I think it calls supporting my argument. As for your decision to change field, that is great. Because u know what u like and u wont mind to chase after it. However, you still are the statistic of DC drop out which many "real DCs" look down upon. In the end for whatever your decision to change career, you have to say that getting ur dc was a 100G mistake since you are no longer using it. Which was the original post of this forum rite? Should i go to DC school or Do school?
So be honest and give the answer that might help someone from making the same decision! I talked to 2 of my DC turned MD friends and they told me all they heard during chiro school recruit were u are going to be a doctor and make of money as DCs. But at the end, you knw the rest!

What's funny is your not even a DC and you've never been to chiro school so your opinion means nothing. You are just bashing a profession because you think it's the right thing to do. If someone has done their research into the profession and decides to go into it then they made the right decision for them. Many DCs make a living and many do well with it. Just because your DC turned MD friends tell you it didn't work for them doesn't mean it won't for others. I have said that if someone is after money chiro is not the easy way to go because it is a lot of work. You also realize all this effort your putting into STOPPING the chiropractic profession could be well spent studying for step 2 so you can get a residency.

kanson
10-15-2008, 08:50 PM
What's funny is your not even a DC and you've never been to chiro school so your opinion means nothing. You are just bashing a profession because you think it's the right thing to do. If someone has done their research into the profession and decides to go into it then they made the right decision for them. Many DCs make a living and many do well with it. Just because your DC turned MD friends tell you it didn't work for them doesn't mean it won't for others. I have said that if someone is after money chiro is not the easy way to go because it is a lot of work. You also realize all this effort your putting into STOPPING the chiropractic profession could be well spent studying for step 2 so you can get a residency.


very wise...

GbrdTbrd
10-15-2008, 09:36 PM
Hunteradam: I'm not sure why the moderator hasn't done anything about this but your comments aren't really helping people who are on this forum trying to have a civilized discussion regarding their questions/comments about whether or not to be a DC or MD. You frequently end your posts with ugly comments about swap meets, being a "real doctor" etc. which is fine once or twice but it's really getting old and is beginning to make you look like a petty fool. The ex- and current chiros aren't hiding anything on this forum or why would we be on this forum in the first place? Your foolish rants and silly cut/pastes don't enhance the stature of you or your profession. I applaud the individuals on this forum who, by experience or by simple tact, make convincing arguments about why they chose to leave chiro and choose medicine. I haven't always liked what they said but the comments were made from experience and were done constructively. I'm glad the people reading these posts are already intelligent and can marginalize extremists like yourself. You really should stay off the forum unless you have something useful or constructive to say.

Perhaps one question that isn't being examined is how satisfied are MD's with their career choice? How many MD's are extremely disgusted and self-medicating because of the problems of being an MD? Enormous malpractice premiums, shrinking reimbursement (just like chiro), long hours, tedious documentation verging on insanity, worries about lawsuits, etc. So maybe MD's aren't going back to chiro school but is the price of MD school worth it? When you're young, idealistic, and fresh out of school it's a lot different. Perhaps not everyone should be encouraged to be an MD..........I can tell you that practicing as a chiro has been financially rewarding but it is becoming much more difficult but it might not justify starting all over again. I just read a major news article about how it is getting more and more difficult to fill Family Med/Int. Med residencies b/c the time, money, sweat invested isn't being rewarded commensurately. Maybe those chiros out there wishing to be MD's need to start surveying a bunch of MD's and see how they feel and whether they'd do it all over again. I think the chiros who've chosen the MD path like some of those on this forum are well-prepared for their new career because you've already faced a lot of difficulties. I wish you tremendous success and satisfaction and I'm sure your experience as a DC will make you a much better MD.

hunteradam07
10-15-2008, 09:55 PM
well i do take break from my study sometimes, just like you are taking break from see your pts at the EM rite, bookite? Well since i didnt go to chiro school, i didnt have 100g indebt and i dont have to pay that off anytime soon. So kudos to you, bookite for make that big and hard scarify! Keep in mind that it's the salary from EM in the future that will pay off that loans for u. As for me, dont really care about making money, because i know his is my calling since the day I help to deliver a newborn infant. So i had never focused on financial issue as my starting point, but thanks for your concern GTB.
As for those references which i bought up during my post, NONE of them are from MD. 2 from DCs and one is PHD. So I dont know what is the problem. Or what the contend of the references are the problem. Is it because they speak the truth that no other DC wants to face? Why dont you go line by line of each state that DC. Homola wrote in his paper about that he thought of his own profession. He is not only did the research, but further provide full link to his references for anyone to check. Unlike most of you, who simply putted down whatever title quasi research to support your arguments. As for me being banned, maybe because i point out what other wont have the courage of saying especially those who switched career and continued to tell other-less inform to make same 100g decision- So instead of answering issues that brought by me or the other, go ahead attack me personally. It's a badge of honor that i m proudly wear! Thanks for your kind thought and concern about my CK. I keep you guys posted with my result. Have fun on the marketing day! I hope that is not offensive to you, GTB. If it's I am sorry!

GbrdTbrd
10-15-2008, 10:38 PM
It's very courageous of you to tap on your keyboard in cyberspace and save humanity from chiropractic; you're really making a difference in the world big guy. Keep up the great work.

hunteradam07
10-15-2008, 10:55 PM
It's very courageous of you to tap on your keyboard in cyberspace and save humanity from chiropractic; you're really making a difference in the world big guy. Keep up the great work.
Thanks for the kind words. If i can save one person from spend>100,000 dollars, and instead of using the money wisely like Bookite/DC Webb/ Ethanhunter, DC and many more to go to med school or DO school, or PT school. Then it's all worth it. Thanks again and have fun this weekend. Dont forget to bring a warm jacket, because the weather is getting colder at those outdoor market. I wont want you to catch a flu and have to go see an MD. Take Care.

hunteradam07
10-15-2008, 11:03 PM
Oh here is more fun fact that Samuel Homola, DC wrote in this book. You can google is name. I know some of you dont like this, but this is what he had to say (dont kill the messager!):

"
Inside Chiropractic: A Patient's Guide

Samuel Homola, D.C. (1999)

Chiropractic, which celebrated its centennial in 1995, is a curious mixture of science and pseudoscience, sense and nonsense. Much of it is based on the theory that misaligned spinal bones produce nerve interference that causes disease. Many chiropractors claim that correcting these misalignments ("subluxations") can restore health and that regular spinal adjustments are essential to maintain it.
Neither logic nor scientific evidence supports such a belief. Although spinal manipulation can relieve certain types of back pain, neck pain, and other musculoskeletal symptoms, there is no scientific evidence that it can restore or maintain health. As a result of expressing my opinion on this subject, I have been called a chiropractic heretic.
The chiropractic profession has little tolerance for dissension. Its nonsense remains unchallenged by its leaders and has not been denounced in its journals. In fact, many chiropractic journals continue to publish articles that attempt to justify subluxation theory. Although progress has been made, the profession still has one foot lightly planted in science and the other firmly rooted in cultism. Without appropriate criticism, the good in chiropractic will never be sifted out, and competent chiropractors will not receive the recognition they deserve.
This book denounces the cultism in chiropractic but supports the appropriate use of spinal manipulation and the research efforts required to solidify its scientific basis. If you are contemplating or receiving chiropractic care, it might help protect both your pocketbook and your health."

SOUND LIKE SOMEONE YOU KNOW, HMMM! HOW DARE HIM! WHAT A HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING!

bookite
10-16-2008, 09:18 AM
well i do take break from my study sometimes, just like you are taking break from see your pts at the EM rite, bookite? Well since i didnt go to chiro school, i didnt have 100g indebt and i dont have to pay that off anytime soon. So kudos to you, bookite for make that big and hard scarify! Keep in mind that it's the salary from EM in the future that will pay off that loans for u. As for me, dont really care about making money, because i know his is my calling since the day I help to deliver a newborn infant. So i had never focused on financial issue as my starting point, but thanks for your concern GTB.
As for those references which i bought up during my post, NONE of them are from MD. 2 from DCs and one is PHD. So I dont know what is the problem. Or what the contend of the references are the problem. Is it because they speak the truth that no other DC wants to face? Why dont you go line by line of each state that DC. Homola wrote in his paper about that he thought of his own profession. He is not only did the research, but further provide full link to his references for anyone to check. Unlike most of you, who simply putted down whatever title quasi research to support your arguments. As for me being banned, maybe because i point out what other wont have the courage of saying especially those who switched career and continued to tell other-less inform to make same 100g decision- So instead of answering issues that brought by me or the other, go ahead attack me personally. It's a badge of honor that i m proudly wear! Thanks for your kind thought and concern about my CK. I keep you guys posted with my result. Have fun on the marketing day! I hope that is not offensive to you, GTB. If it's I am sorry!

Now I know your just a troll and not on the mission you say you are. Trolls inflame not educate. FYI, My chiro loans were paid from my chiro practice. In fact my medical education was also financed from my chrio education. I opened a practice in CA and saved my money before going back to school.
If you are like this in your real life you are going to have a hard road in residency and finding anyone who will work with you.
I have never told anyone what career path they should take. I would not tell anyone Medicine is the way to go either. As the elections come up both canadiates have ideas to reform medicine and both plans will most likely change our environment as physicians.

GbrdTbrd
10-16-2008, 10:45 AM
He has a future as a urologist, ******es everybody off. :)

hunteradam07
10-16-2008, 02:35 PM
Bookite, u can call me whatever name you want "stick and stone my man!". Bottomline, it's still you spent>100G on a degree that you wont use anymore. Whoa that is nice! If you are a charity mood, you can always donate the same amount to some cause worth while like: CA research, HIV, Pediatric, homeless shelter, and many more. I know as EM you will make a nice living, so 100g dollars dont mean much too you. But to most people who decided to go to graduate school (especially in this climate of economy) that is a big gamble in term of getting a diploma that you might not be able to pay it back. Fed student loan stat has shown that DCs have the highest default rate. It's great that you "paid it off", but still what does that stat tell you? If most DCs can be as success as you are, then why so much default? So if you want to put down >100G and have little prospective of paying back, then go ahead. Now that is a real straight talk express that you wont see with many former DCs turned MDs. Even if i m a troll, i m a truthful troll. Unlike hypocrite which shall not be name. Many many whistle blowers have been called worst! So bring it on! Like DC Homola said your tactic aint new! As long as the readers know what you switched your "glorious" career as chiropractic to spend 4 yrs in foreign medical school and spending next 3 years in EM=7yrs side trip to your second career. Heh if that is the path prospective DCs want to go then by all mean do it. Or you can jz get your MD or DO, then spend 6months to learn adjustment in chiro school and get your DC diploma and licensed. Heh i just save u >100G, so all i ask is you take 10% and donate to a charity of your choice. Thanks in advance folks. May God keep you safe from these economic times. You can always Private IM DC Bookite to ask for a loan he is very generous. Oohs i m sorry Bookite MD. Sorry i didnt mean any insult by calling you DC Bookite. I know you are MD now.

As for GTB, Urologist is one of the hardest thing to match. I would love to match in that even though i know my score isnot high enough. But thanks for the kind thought though. Oh any comment on DC Homola's book, he is pretty anti-chiro too. Maybe he should be go back to medical school like Bookite and become a urologist too as you suggested. Thanks again. Have fun at your street fair this weekend and wear something warm.

PS: To Bookite, if standing up for what i believe in the face of name calling and outside pressure, or refuse to change my believe without any evidence to contradict them unlike those who changed one day from the next or one career from the next are going to hurt me in residency, then it's worth it for me. You see i wont change my principal for any reason or anyone especially those who hypocrites and name callings. And if that make me a bad doctor in the future, because i stand on certain principal then so be it. I m sure you see it differently. One day to the next rite! Dont work so hard in EM room, i know it's very stressful.

bookite
10-16-2008, 04:28 PM
Bookite, u can call me whatever name you want "stick and stone my man!". Bottomline, it's still you spent>100G on a degree that you wont use anymore. Whoa that is nice! If you are a charity mood, you can always donate the same amount to some cause worth while like: CA research, HIV, Pediatric, homeless shelter, and many more. I know as EM you will make a nice living, so 100g dollars dont mean much too you. But to most people who decided to go to graduate school (especially in this climate of economy) that is a big gamble in term of getting a diploma that you might not be able to pay it back. Fed student loan stat has shown that DCs have the highest default rate. It's great that you "paid it off", but still what does that stat tell you? If most DCs can be as success as you are, then why so much default? So if you want to put down >100G and have little prospective of paying back, then go ahead. Now that is a real straight talk express that you wont see with many former DCs turned MDs. Even if i m a troll, i m a truthful troll. Unlike hypocrite which shall not be name. Many many whistle blowers have been called worst! So bring it on! Like DC Homola said your tactic aint new! As long as the readers know what you switched your "glorious" career as chiropractic to spend 4 yrs in foreign medical school and spending next 3 years in EM=7yrs side trip to your second career. Heh if that is the path prospective DCs want to go then by all mean do it. Or you can jz get your MD or DO, then spend 6months to learn adjustment in chiro school and get your DC diploma and licensed. Heh i just save u >100G, so all i ask is you take 10% and donate to a charity of your choice. Thanks in advance folks. May God keep you safe from these economic times. You can always Private IM DC Bookite to ask for a loan he is very generous. Oohs i m sorry Bookite MD. Sorry i didnt mean any insult by calling you DC Bookite. I know you are MD now.

As for GTB, Urologist is one of the hardest thing to match. I would love to match in that even though i know my score isnot high enough. But thanks for the kind thought though. Oh any comment on DC Homola's book, he is pretty anti-chiro too. Maybe he should be go back to medical school like Bookite and become a urologist too as you suggested. Thanks again. Have fun at your street fair this weekend and wear something warm.

PS: To Bookite, if standing up for what i believe in the face of name calling and outside pressure, or refuse to change my believe without any evidence to contradict them unlike those who changed one day from the next or one career from the next are going to hurt me in residency, then it's worth it for me. You see i wont change my principal for any reason or anyone especially those who hypocrites and name callings. And if that make me a bad doctor in the future, because i stand on certain principal then so be it. I m sure you see it differently. One day to the next rite! Dont work so hard in EM room, i know it's very stressful.

Your attacks make your opinion less meaningful. What Im trying to say is you can have your belief but when you shove it down peoples throat or add insults about street fairs you loose your audience and piss people off. Example: I could say that MDs from the Philippines had an inferior educations even compared to Caribbean grads or I could say in my opnion caribbean grads had a great education. I get my point accross without being rude.

Edit: only meant as an example PI schools are not inferior to caribbean schools Come ON we're all FMGs. Why can't we all just get along!!!!

While you see chiropractic as a wast of money or inferior to the educaiton you received in the Philippines you could state your opinion and leave it at that instead of spamming the DC board and telling the DCs on the board to enjoy their street fair.

Now I have to go to work and can no longer cyber fight. Though it was fun.

hunteradam07
10-17-2008, 02:44 AM
Well if you want to count >150G Carribean med school education vs. 40G that i received from PI medical school. Then i agree w u. Carribean is by far superior. I have no problem telling everyone that i went to PI medical school, because i didnt have enough money or want to take up >100G in debt by the time in done. I dont want to be that kind of money hurry doctor or worry about huge debt after i grad. Maybe that is why i can be myself and stand by my principal easier than those with huge debts. How much did u spend for all your grad school so far, hmm 100g for chiro+150G for AUC=250G. But it's small chances for a successful DC and EM doc rite. Like i said I would give unsugar coat opinion, and if i can save anyone from spending >100G or 4 yrs of chiro school. Then it's worth it. FYI my two chiros friends that went to PI med school, because they couldnt afford to take on anymore student loans. What a bunch of losers rite Bookite! Hw inferior those DCs must have been!
As of Swap-meet comments because it's truth! Unless you are telling me that doesnt happen w DCs at swap-meet and how i make this whole thing up. But you know the truth of the matter is it's happened all the time. And if it's the way ur profession market itself, then be proud and own it. You dont thnk a prospective DC student wouldnt want that perspective? My friend Ethan Hunter did. He told me that after sitting through his Swap-meet booth for one day, he knew that he wanted to go back to med school. When is that key moment for you, Bookite? Share with us? Since your practice so successful, please share! When did u find your second calling? Let see u spent 4 yrs chiro school+4 yrs of med school+however many yrs practice as DC, and you are only a yr a head of me? Whoa nice. You rite you are superior than me in many ways. Oh let me tell you my research at the swapp-meet two weeks ago. This is my own research and the sample size is very small (3), but i know you guys dont mind because HTN study only 50pts. So here go my experiences at the OC swap-meet: Yea i m poor so i go to swap meet and buy things!
First booth southwest corner of entrance, the dc there asked me a few simple question about my hx. I told them i dont have any problem rite now, but i do have LBP once awhile if i sit too long or too much walking. The pain is localized and dull aching. So he asked me to stand in this booth and move all the string and levers around. Afterward he told me that my spinal posture is the caused of my prblem, and i have major issue with my back even though i dont have any pain. I need to see him at this office rite away. Initial consult+exam+Xray about 300 dollars, but if i buy a 10 visit package, then only 125 for the first visit.
2nd booth next to the hot dogstand, same hx bt this time the DC gave me a sEMG scan which print out a nice colorful spinal muscles alignment. So he told me that i have a serious problem because my low back ms. are out of aligment. And a similiar package of consult, xray, and treatment only 20 visits this time.
3rd booth very different this time, the dc took my hx and check my DTR plus asked me to lay prone, then he pressed lumbar, thoracic, and neck. Afterward he asked me to sit up and did some ms strength tests. Then give me the news that my higher neck part (assume C0-1 is out of alignment and that is the main problem). He wanted me to see him rite away and maintain care program.
So 3 Dcs+3 DXs+So what u think Dr. Bookite. Is my case so hard that 3 ddx? And 3 different treatment plans? Should i spend thousand of dollars even though i have no pain at this time? Well i know you guys would slam me as heretic. But that how it happened. I m so scary do you think it's terminal? Please Bookite MD/DC give me your expert opinion, cuz i dont want to subluxate, misalign, or ms out of tone. Thanks in advance.

bookite
10-17-2008, 03:42 PM
Well if you want to count >150G Carribean med school education vs. 40G that i received from PI medical school. Then i agree w u. Carribean is by far superior. I have no problem telling everyone that i went to PI medical school, because i didnt have enough money or want to take up >100G in debt by the time in done. I dont want to be that kind of money hurry doctor or worry about huge debt after i grad. Maybe that is why i can be myself and stand by my principal easier than those with huge debts. How much did u spend for all your grad school so far, hmm 100g for chiro+150G for AUC=250G. But it's small chances for a successful DC and EM doc rite. Like i said I would give unsugar coat opinion, and if i can save anyone from spending >100G or 4 yrs of chiro school. Then it's worth it. FYI my two chiros friends that went to PI med school, because they couldnt afford to take on anymore student loans. What a bunch of losers rite Bookite! Hw inferior those DCs must have been!
As of Swap-meet comments because it's truth! Unless you are telling me that doesnt happen w DCs at swap-meet and how i make this whole thing up. But you know the truth of the matter is it's happened all the time. And if it's the way ur profession market itself, then be proud and own it. You dont thnk a prospective DC student wouldnt want that perspective? My friend Ethan Hunter did. He told me that after sitting through his Swap-meet booth for one day, he knew that he wanted to go back to med school. When is that key moment for you, Bookite? Share with us? Since your practice so successful, please share! When did u find your second calling? Let see u spent 4 yrs chiro school+4 yrs of med school+however many yrs practice as DC, and you are only a yr a head of me? Whoa nice. You rite you are superior than me in many ways. Oh let me tell you my research at the swapp-meet two weeks ago. This is my own research and the sample size is very small (3), but i know you guys dont mind because HTN study only 50pts. So here go my experiences at the OC swap-meet: Yea i m poor so i go to swap meet and buy things!
First booth southwest corner of entrance, the dc there asked me a few simple question about my hx. I told them i dont have any problem rite now, but i do have LBP once awhile if i sit too long or too much walking. The pain is localized and dull aching. So he asked me to stand in this booth and move all the string and levers around. Afterward he told me that my spinal posture is the caused of my prblem, and i have major issue with my back even though i dont have any pain. I need to see him at this office rite away. Initial consult+exam+Xray about 300 dollars, but if i buy a 10 visit package, then only 125 for the first visit.
2nd booth next to the hot dogstand, same hx bt this time the DC gave me a sEMG scan which print out a nice colorful spinal muscles alignment. So he told me that i have a serious problem because my low back ms. are out of aligment. And a similiar package of consult, xray, and treatment only 20 visits this time.
3rd booth very different this time, the dc took my hx and check my DTR plus asked me to lay prone, then he pressed lumbar, thoracic, and neck. Afterward he asked me to sit up and did some ms strength tests. Then give me the news that my higher neck part (assume C0-1 is out of alignment and that is the main problem). He wanted me to see him rite away and maintain care program.
So 3 Dcs+3 DXs+So what u think Dr. Bookite. Is my case so hard that 3 ddx? And 3 different treatment plans? Should i spend thousand of dollars even though i have no pain at this time? Well i know you guys would slam me as heretic. But that how it happened. I m so scary do you think it's terminal? Please Bookite MD/DC give me your expert opinion, cuz i dont want to subluxate, misalign, or ms out of tone. Thanks in advance.

(Edit: This was a joke as you can see from the chiro tx of three times a week for weeks, not meant to violate the TOS. all yous and yours taken out.)
DDX as I see it:
1. Atychiphobia
2. Sociophobia
3. Venustraphobia

The above ddx was made only of the information given. For a further more accurate ddx I will need to see you three time a week for 6 weeks and I will need payment up front.:twisted:

hunteradam07
10-17-2008, 06:52 PM
Whoa no of those Dx related to my chief complain! Is that how u tx your pts when you are a DCs? Or is that the kind of trainning your received at UT residency or "Mercedez" education at AUC? Well it totally worth >250G for sure. Thanks doc. I definitively contact you at UT after my CK for sure to get more insightful DX. I would also encourage all DCs that near UT to contact you, because you would give them all kinds of refers for Whiplash injuries rite? Since you are a EM doc so you should see plenty of those. Why not help your fellow dcs out by refer them instead of refer to PMNR! And maybe they give you some "kick-back" oohs that is illegal, i mean referring fees as well. See Bookite, i m trying to give you extra-money in your pockets and u still think i m a troll. How rude! So to all DCs near UT, please contact Bookite for refer, or you can also contact the director of the program and ask for MD/DC who 1st year resident as well. This is the time when you Bookite, should put your money where your mouth is, if you dont want those DCs to go to swapp-meet for marketing, then help them out by referring those case to them. I heard personal injuries very lucrative practice so why not. Or you can even open a chiro office next to ER that way you can do both! KOOL! Come on bro, you the only expert there for whiplash injuries rite. I mean you are DC by training. Make sure you run it by your PD first. I m sure he would be fine with it. Thanks again for the free DX. I will try to contact you or your program personally after my CK.

bookite
10-17-2008, 07:33 PM
Whoa no of those Dx related to my chief complain! Is that how u tx your pts when you are a DCs? Or is that the kind of trainning your received at UT residency or "Mercedez" education at AUC? Well it totally worth >250G for sure. Thanks doc. I definitively contact you at UT after my CK for sure to get more insightful DX. I would also encourage all DCs that near UT to contact you, because you would give them all kinds of refers for Whiplash injuries rite? Since you are a EM doc so you should see plenty of those. Why not help your fellow dcs out by refer them instead of refer to PMNR! And maybe they give you some "kick-back" oohs that is illegal, i mean referring fees as well. See Bookite, i m trying to give you extra-money in your pockets and u still think i m a troll. How rude! So to all DCs near UT, please contact Bookite for refer, or you can also contact the director of the program and ask for MD/DC who 1st year resident as well. This is the time when you Bookite, should put your money where your mouth is, if you dont want those DCs to go to swapp-meet for marketing, then help them out by referring those case to them. I heard personal injuries very lucrative practice so why not. Or you can even open a chiro office next to ER that way you can do both! KOOL! Come on bro, you the only expert there for whiplash injuries rite. I mean you are DC by training. Make sure you run it by your PD first. I m sure he would be fine with it. Thanks again for the free DX. I will try to contact you or your program personally after my CK.

Ok my English comment was a bit rude my apologies to all involved I violated the TOS and should be shamed out loud by my fellow VMDers

Deleted

hunteradam07
10-17-2008, 07:40 PM
Thanks for your concern, i passed my CS first time already. And i will work on my CK. sure i dont have to time to spell check or revise my post, because i do it during my break from UW. Like i said, if you wont refer to DCs for case who you know that would need their expertise, then you are just another MD trying to stop them from helping their pts. And if you think the chiropractic can really help these pts with whiplash, then why not refer them? Are you deprived your pts of another opinion? Is how you think in the best interest of your pts? So which is it then? U want to withhold a tx that u knw will help them or u dont want to refer to DCs? Put your money where your mouth is.

FOID
10-17-2008, 07:40 PM
folks, i suggest you to edit you post immediately. many posts are in violation of the terms of service. any further violations will result in infractions.

bookite
10-17-2008, 07:50 PM
folks, i suggest you to edit you post immediately. many posts are in violation of the [/URL][URL="http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php"]Terms of Service (http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php). any further violations will result in infractions.

There are a lot of posts which ones would you like me to edit? Last thing I want to do is violate anyone.

OK Edited the ones I could find that may have violated the TOS. Please take me off the hate list.;)

bookite
10-17-2008, 08:05 PM
Now it all makes sense your very first ever post on VMD.


let me start by saying I graduated as DC in 99, practice for 3 years, and now i m in medical school doing my internship. So what i will say is from my own experiences. Concern about the high rate of DC drop out, this was an issue during my chiro school. In fact one of the doctor who teach chiropractic philosophy had brought up that stat and we had a debate in class about. It's truth DC has one of the highest default in student loans, i know this for fact because during my study the loan officers came to our school and speak about that issues. As for my own experience, i have 6 friends who graduated sametime. 2 went into real estate, 1 went into IT school, 1 went back to med school like me, and 2 still practice in IL. So i dont know what that mean, but it's a high number for my experience. Concern about Gonstead technique, it's not phasing out as Emanon mention at least in 1999, it's still taught in my school and we still use it as segmental diagnosis. In fact, Gonstead club was a strongest lobbies on my campus and they want to incooperate Gonstead philosophy into our school teaching-include antivaccine message. Our dean had a meeting with them. The big problem with chiropractic as a profession is the diagnosis completely subjective by the dc, because dc use only palpation to make segmental diagnosis and no two dc could came up with same diagnosis. In fact, we had a small group studies on this during my time. We had a group of faculties and students palpated a group of patients, and write down diagnosis. Most of them had complete different diagnosis on the same patients. So what i mean is if a patient has low Hgb, most MD would agree that pt has amenia. They might not agree what cause it but at least the agree with that. Now in my own experience, after i graduated i could not find a paying DC job for 6 months, most places told me they only interested in percentage. That mean i bring in patients and split the fee with them. Some places offered me 12 dollars/hr as fully license DC and that is rare to find. Most of my classmates was in the same situation. I finally found a group practices that would paid me 36T a year a license DC. During that time i went to Wallmart, county fairs, and swap-meet to do spinal screening. And there was two others DC tables in this one swap meet beside me. I was adviced by the owner of the practice that every spinal screening patient should have or need adjustment and my job is to get them to come sign up of package deal of adjustment. I didnt feel rite about. So i quitted and went back to med school. So that is my experience. I jz want to say to Emanon why is it that someone has to be hurt by DC to have an opinion? Dont u think the way u say things sound so defensive? Why is it so wrong to ask chiropractors to set a standard for the profession? How long do we have to wait for our profession to get our act together? Like my Medical Ethics doctor says if not u, who? If not here, where? If not now, When? So please keep the dialogue going and please dont be so defensive it only does our a profession a disservice. Thank U. I hope i didnt offend anyone.

hunteradam07
10-17-2008, 08:50 PM
yep that is me and that is why i stand by all the things i said! Unsugar coat point of view that you wont get from your DC recuiters. So if you want to save money/time/ and help real patients, then go to Med school, PT, DDS, Pod, Nursing, PA, and many other health related schools. Dont be >100G debts for a degree that u wont use. I got lucky cuz i paid my loan off after refinance my house when the housing boom! And take the rest and when to PI Med school! Unlike a lot of my DC friends who are stuck and default their loans. So that is why i m brutally honest with u guys on this forum, and i wish someone has been their to give me the unsugar coat version. It would save me 100g for sure and 4 yrs of my life. And that is why all the neg attacks dont bother me, because i know i m doing the rite thing. Instead of sugar coat and send other in a wrong direction which they know deep down inside. I wont let my pride over take my conscience and give those who seeks advice wrong information. And i think that is the same way DC Homola felt when he wrote his book. So you dnt take my words for it, then read his book. Good luck to all.

GbrdTbrd
10-17-2008, 09:29 PM
bookite/ha what is this good cop/bad cop? bookite whyhow do you have 99 quote of hunter?

hunteradam07
10-17-2008, 09:55 PM
it's in the other much early posted. You can read all my post by just searching under my name. Feel free! I have nothing to hide. Thanks for doing the research on me. Like i said before, i have always trying to bring research to my opinion by referencing DC. Homola or others, because i want to support my arguments w facts.

stephew
10-17-2008, 11:00 PM
any violations will meet with infraction, no further calls to edit.

holistic
03-02-2009, 07:00 PM
JCC, congratulations on your acceptance to Life!

I'm a 20 year out Life grad. Chiropractic is alive and well and booming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your family must be proud and you over joyed. Do it JCC. Go to Life! I promise you will not regret it. There was never a better time to be in chiropractic than now. The past seven years has seen a major shift in health care. Now more americans visit holistic health care providers than medical providers. By far the largest group seen? DOCTORS OF CHIROPRACTIC (DC). JCC, you're going to be a doctor!

Life is by far the not only the largest chiropractic school in the world, but the most modern. Medical schools are amazed with Life's cutting edge diagnostic imaging and physio facilities. You will be blown away JCC.

Plus Lifes curricula includes practice management by the largest and most successful practice training team (CJ Mertz).

At Life, a whole new world will open up before your eyes. I'm actually envious of you. Aside from developing close ties to students and faculty, here is where I became a doctor, a chiropractic doctor.

These here former chiro flunkies wish you to go to the dark side because they feel as if they belong with the dark side. They actually wish you to believe medicine offers a "Free Lunch"? Because they feel they will recieve one too.

What!!! MD's and DO's have patients knocking down their doors?

Paychecks gauranteed? Whoahhhhh here! Two weeks ago a plastic surgeon specializing in breast augumentation visited my office looking for my help in jump starting her practice.

She said she heard of me through one of my patients. That I was the busiest doctor of any doctor in upper Westchester County NY. Now whos the "Starvin Marvin" here folks?

Last year an MD came to my office offering to perform physical exams for my patients. She failed exit proficiency exams thus wan't licensed.

I see 500 pv/week and growing and my collegues around me are all in the hundreds pv/week.

Examine who is telling poor JCC a bunch of garbage? Failed DC's are telling you garbage JCC.

JCC and the other fella out there! Three weeks ago I personally met with Life's and Life West presidents Guy Reikman and Gerald Clum. They are so cool and optimistic about chiropractic. Visit the school JCC! The students all join together to help all get through. Your friends for Life!

Chiropractic is alive and well. Both schools provide practice management in the curricula by the top practice builders in the world.

NO, you will not be bored in chiropractic. Shadow successful docs and you will become a successful doc.

You could not imagine how much action in the terms of my arsenal of techniques and the range of cases.

I'm primary care doctor to many of the offices members, and this facet grows weekly. I enjoy the feeling when a person embraces the chiropractic lifestyle. One more person who is saved from the mediocrity and dangers of medicine. One by one.

Please call or write me chiropractic candidates and doctors. You will only find medics trying to discourage you here. They hold no clue to the origins and ending of their dilemma. I mean this earnestly.

If you wish to understand why over 35,000,000 americans (and steadily growing) currently use chiropractic and what happened to the other 200 million...800,000 medics are handing out drugs, needles, and knives.

3rd largest cause of death in U.S.= Medicine (iatrogenic and noscomial)

JCC, you must let go of them. Call me or write. 914 462-8065 Visit my office web site: Blue Mountain Family Chiropractic Cortlandt Manor, NY

Chiropractic doctors have to fight for patients? LOL. I recieve on the average of one new patient per week from just the office web site.

Seth Gross, DC

holistic
03-03-2009, 12:38 AM
HunterAdam, "Help real patients"? 100k in student loan debts? You didn't ask for my advice my man, but I'll give it to ya anyway.

500 pv/week of "Real Patients" come to me everyday for primary care. You see, chiropractic is primary care. Didn't you know this?

You guys are so infatuated with tinkering with the chemicals, needles, and knives of medicine (old school), that yas missed the advanced chiropractic model of health care delivery.

You know what turns people on? Finding out that the chiropractic doctor is more than qualified to meet their health care needs. You should see the people at my office. Before they leave "Dr. Gross" my nephew has constant headaches, he's calling you Monday. Dr. Gross, my daughter has chronic earaches and the antibiotics do nothing. I spoke to that mother over there and she said her daughters ear infections cleared up with spinal adjustments and the re-establishment of the probiotics destroyed by repetitive salvos of antibiotics. Dr. Gross you said that you did not vaccinate your four children and they are healthy. Well my sisters son endured an adverse reaction to a MMR shot. What can you tell me about the truths and misconceptions of the vaccination program that I hear and read is hurting thousands of children. On and on and on.

JCC who is accepted to Life and the rest of you DC's contemplating medicine...you have so much to learn that you did'nt pick up the first time. Pick your self up, rise, and do it again with chiropractic!!

We, doctors of chiropractic, are here to help you. We will guide you along the way. Don't go it alone. Medicine is a rough place to be. In med school and out. MD's are not satisfied. They wrestle with suppressing the truth:

"The Power That Made The Body Heals The Body"

ADIO: Above Down Inside Out

Accept this for yourself, then teach this to your office members. They will love and appreciate you so much and will bring their family, friends and neighbors.

This is how I did it folks.

Peace and Love,

Seth Gross, DC







I record BP, write script for laboratory, etc. I do this for many members of the office. You medics really believe that this is all it is about, don't yas?

So what are ya going to do with the info. you gathered from the person? Give em a drug? A needle?, maybe they deserve a scalpel?

Do Ya wanna keep them where they are with this drug, needle, or blade? Or do ya wanna clear their nervous system and apply proper nutrition, exercise, and lifestyle.

This is where the medics and medic wanna bees got it all wrong with chiropractic. You guys truelly believe that it is just about adjusting to stop spine pain?

Spine pain 101 was never taught in chiro school. ya wanna know the facts?

Fact: There is little difference between the chiropractic and medical curriculae. In fact chiro. on the average chiro school is approx. 400 more hours, not in hair braiding like some of ya medics believe, all hard core basic and advanced sciences and diagnostics, etc. Yep, chiro. school is more school. Chiros do two years internship, then to not waste time studying how people die, it's advanced design of providing correction and prevention (wellness care), leaps over residency.

DonnieSantos
03-03-2009, 01:45 AM
DC Seth have u heard of a thing called PMNR? Have u heard of preventive medicine? I would love to see how you would treat appendicitis without antibiotics or Surgery. If you are very proud of your chiropractic education especially basic sciences, why don't you take USMLE step 1? And see how high u score? Whoa u think internship year in medical school is watching people died? U obviously never do round at any hospital, do u? leaping over residency? Can u tell me how chiropractor would treat an STEMI? Please give me the answer without looking up in Harrison's or Google it :)

holistic
03-04-2009, 08:12 AM
DSM, LOL!

You go man! Keep on him my man!

Seth Gross, DC

AUCMD2006
03-04-2009, 12:31 PM
life has had its ups and downs
Life University's Accreditation Denied | chiroweb.com (http://www.chiroweb.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=15274)
Life University Loses CCE Accreditation (http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/revocation.html)
Today's Chiropractic - Life University’s Fight to Establish Accreditation : january/february 2005 (http://www.todayschiropractic.com/issues/archives/jan_feb_05/feat_001.html)


chiro has a place in healthcare no doubt. a friend of mine went to life for two semesters/trimesters whatever they call em and the stuff he was taught was jaw dropping. i refer to chiro have no problem referring to chiro but due to this i have to know the chiro and the philisophy first and foremost, if not i send to massage therapy, PT or pmnr and have no doubt they are getting the same benefit

holistic
03-04-2009, 01:22 PM
Please everyone...relax.

If you go into chiropractic with prior exposure to chiropractic, you will learn then perform chiropractic acts. Your likelihood of success in becoming a successful doctor of chiropractic (DC) by helping thousands of people (I have 15,000 active patient files)...is greatly heightened.

The collorary is:

If you go into chiropractic without prior exposure to chiropractic, bearing a medical state of mind, you will be jubilant when you graduate, perform medical acts instead of chiropractic acts (medipractor), you won't attract people to you because you behave as a medic while the fact remains that they came to you for chiropractic. You will flounder in practice, then eventually you will fail.

Wait, before I go...Hey Donnie!

You've been begging for me to retort your pro vaccination stance? Listen my man, I'll be honest. I wasn't going to give you the time of day. But here goes...

While under oath before the U.S. Senate Sub-Commitee, Jonas Salk testified that it was the oral polio vaccine that was causing todays polio cases.

He said some children are A-gamma globulin-anemic. They are incapable of producing antibodies. "Who Let the Herd out?"!! Who?...Who? "Who Let The Herd Out?"!!

DonnieSantos
03-04-2009, 03:21 PM
The key is "SOME", Chiro man! Just like some pts cant move after adjustment too right :). Have u heard of killed polio virus vaccine? I dont give Live attentuated polio to HIV pts either, rite. U don't have to give live oral vaccine to all children/immunocomp pts right? But u would not know, because u didnt learn it in Chiro school or for USMLE step 1. Like i said before, put your mouth or your kids health where your polio vaccine is! Dont vaccine the kid, then take him to India and live there for awhile, Chiro man! let see if he can walk after a few months. And your concept of to be a successful DCs, you have to avoid all critical thinking (evident bases practice) is exaclty right. You have to be absolute believe (blind faith) to sell some of these concepts at the swap-meet! I m assuming since u dont like anything related to medicine, then i m sure u dont even take Hx or PE, or DDX on your pts rite? If u used any of that technique, Guess what chiro-man, you are a medpractor, ahahha. Oh by the way, i m still waiting for double blind research or peer review articles on what u preaching. How about some comment on Life DC school and accreditation problem? I m not surprised since they produce faith healer like you! They should lose their creditation asap! I let the real dogs out=dogs!

DonnieSantos
03-04-2009, 03:26 PM
Here is an exert of DC Seth ultimate school-Life chiro-

"
Life University was originally placed on probation by the CCE on June 13, 2001. At that time, the CCE's Commission on Accreditation made the following remarks:
"The COA has deferred a decision regarding reaffirmation of accreditation and has imposed a sanction of Probation for the failure of LUCC to comply with established accreditation criteria. The COA has also determined that immediate public disclosure of this action is warranted. The COA has provided LUCC with information regarding specific deficiencies that must be corrected to maintain CCE accreditation. "A sanction of Probation is imposed to indicate serious deficiencies toward compliance with the requirements of the CCE Standards for Doctor of Chiropractic Programs and Institutions (Standards). The CCE Standards stipulate that the COA may revoke accredited status if a program or institution fails to correct noted deficiencies or otherwise fails to comply with requirements stated in the Standards."
In addition to the actions of the CCE, Life's regional accreditation was placed on a "warning" status for one year by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS) last December3 for:
"failure to comply with Criteria Section 3.1 (Planning and Evaluation: Educational Programs), Section 3.2 (Planning and Evaluation: Administrative and Educational Support Services), Section 4.8.2.2 (Academic and Professional Preparation - Baccalaureate), Section 6.1.2 (Organization and Administration - Governing Board), and Section 6.3.1 (Financial Resources)."

FOR A FULL ARTICLE ON HOW LIFE LOSING ITS ACCREDITATION PLEASE CLICK ON AUCMD'S PREVIOUS POST. See DC seth, peer review articles!

holistic
03-04-2009, 06:33 PM
user cannot play nice

holistic
03-04-2009, 06:42 PM
Oh Donnie, Oh Donnie, Oh Donnie, Where's Donny? Has anyone seen Donnie?

If you've seen Donnie, please tell him that a:

Federal judge threw out CCE's revocation of Life's accreditation.

Life accreditation reinstated.

Court to consider Life's counter suite for monetary damages.

Decision mentioned unwarranted revocation, due to biased special interest parties.

NEXT!

FOID
03-04-2009, 08:08 PM
any violations will meet with infraction, no further calls to edit.

I agree with Stephew. Last warning. Any further violations will result in infractions.

DonnieSantos
03-04-2009, 11:48 PM
I dont see any prove to what u say DC Seth, but here is five students suing Life cuz of the accreditation issues

Students Sue Life University


Five men who are students or former students of Life University have filed suit charging that the university and its president, Sid E. Williams, D.C., have damaged them by failing to maintain the accreditation necessary for its graduates to be eligible for licensure. The suit alleges that the defendants breached their duty to provide proper training and were negligent in failing to meet accreditation standards. The suit arose because in June 2002 the Council on Chiropractic Education (CCE) revoked Life's accredited status (http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/botnick2.html). Life is appealing CCE's ruling (which would mean that plaintiffs would be ineligible for licensure), but the plaintiffs allege that the damage to them cannot be undone even if the appeal is successful.
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF COBB COUNTY
STATE OF GEORGIA

PETER SCIRE, JOSHUA HESS, RODNEY SHULTZ, CHRIS FALER, and ANTHONY STANGELLI, Plaintiffs, vs. SID E. WILLIAMS, individually, and, LIFE UNIVERSITY, INC., a Georgia corporation, Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
CIVIL ACTION
FILE NO.

COMPLAINT FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE,
NEGLIGENT HIRING, NEGLIGENT RETENTION, NEGLIGENT
SUPERVISION and PROMISSORY ESTOPPEL

COMES NOW, PETER SCIRE, JOSHUA HESS, RODNEY SHULTZ, CHRIS FALER and ANTHONY STANGELLI (collectively referred to herein as "Plaintiffs"), plaintiffs in the above styled case and files this their Complaint for Breach of Contract, Negligence, Negligent Hiring, Negligent Retention, Negligent Supervision and Promissory Estoppel against Defendants SID E. WILLIAMS ("WILLIAMS"), individually and LIFE UNIVERSITY, INC. ("LIFE"), a Georgia corporation and shows this Court the following:

DonnieSantos
03-05-2009, 12:03 AM
Your quote :" Oh no! I made a mistake by teaching them that specific spinal adjustments not only decrease nerve interference, increase nocioception, but also mobilize white blood cell laden lymphatic tissue. Oh no, Oh my? What have I done?

Hunter, MD. Holistic, DC, with his superior primary care training and understanding of what the body really needs and does not need, loves taking you on in any health related topic."
Please show me double blind research where adjustment improve or mobilize the WBC and lymphatic! I m all ears! Until u can prove what u talking about, please stop ! Oh u want life without antibiotics, i show you remember during civil war how people regularly died from leg/arm amputation? Oh remember all those syphillis complications without Penicillin! I would love for u to adjust the lymphatic system and cure cellulitis or bacterial pneunomia! I m trying to keep my mind open, but i after seeing and debate with u. I recognized that critical thinking nor evident bases is not a requirement for a intelligent debate w u. U think you are better equipped to do real primary care? Do u know anything about OBGYNE? When is the last time u deliver a baby or suturing? Or when is the last time u treated strep throat or bronchiolitis? Please stick to your scope of practice and stop this non-sense. U are not a medical doctor nor having the training for it!

maximillian genossa
03-05-2009, 02:32 PM
I never thought this thread would get this juicy with bans, warnings, infractions, etc.

CARICOM-MED
03-05-2009, 02:49 PM
There were few DCs that got their MDs at my medical school, when UHSA offered the 36 months program for DC / DPM / DDS. (that stopped when ECFMG no longer allowed transfer credits or advance standing, now UHSA is 40 months traditional program.)
University of Health Sciences Antigua (http://www.uhsa.ag/index.html)

All DCs already completed their residencies, and from talking to them, years ago, they all told me that Chiropractic college was VERY challenging, the DC degree as we all know is a 4 year degree, however the DC has a limited scope, being a natural doctor etc....so pharmaceuticals are out, same goes with surgeries. As I see it, DCs are glorified PTs, they have the know how, great in diagnostics, but therapeutically can treat with manual methods as DOs, and PT modalities.

If you want hands on, and pharmaceuticals go with a DO program !!!
If you insist on the natural approach consider either a DC or ND program ;)

If you insist and want to learn chiropractic medicine, go with the top DC schools out there:

NUHS, CMCC, SCUH, Parker, Western State, Northwestern U, New York Chiropractic College and Logan U.
The Association of Chiropractic Colleges (http://www.chirocolleges.org/collegest.html)

Based on NBCE (the DC version of NBME) Success on Passing the Boards:
National Board of Chiropractic Examiners - News and Updates (http://www.nbce.org/)

Here are the top 7 DC Colleges / Universities, based on % Pass Rate:

1. NUHS (formerly NCC- National College)
2. Western State
3. Northwestern U
4. SCUH (LA)
5. CMCC (Canada)
6. Parker College (Texas)
7. Logan U

These are the science based Chiro colleges.

DonnieSantos
03-05-2009, 06:53 PM
How come Life chiropractic is not one of the top 7, DC Seth? I thought it's the best according to your post :).

CARICOM-MED
03-31-2009, 11:10 PM
Impressive Video, looks better than top CARICOM Med school:
Very Impressive Facilities.........wonder if that is standard in all Chiro Colleges ???
YouTube - Logan University | College of Chiropractic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIXy4b0oAE)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIXy4b0oAE[/FON"]400 Bad Request (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIXy4b0oAE)

[FONT=Arial Narrow]I've been to NUHS and CMCC, both are equally impressive.......

The DC profession came a long way.......

pvttimhall
04-01-2009, 11:34 AM
It doesn't matter who they get to teach or how nice thier labs are... Chiro schools are still filling people full of pseudo-science when it comes to chiropractic practice itself.

I had to add this.. I started watching the Logan link you listed...

at one point, a guy says.. Logan is great because "your education has a good mix of science AND chiropractic". THis says it all.. two different worlds..however.. medicine IS science.

Just thought that was funny..

maximillian genossa
04-01-2009, 12:12 PM
A good example of bad advertisement.


It doesn't matter who they get to teach or how nice thier labs are... Chiro schools are still filling people full of pseudo-science when it comes to chiropractic practice itself.

I had to add this.. I started watching the Logan link you listed...

at one point, a guy says.. Logan is great because "your education has a good mix of science AND chiropractic". THis says it all.. two different worlds..however.. medicine IS science.

Just thought that was funny..

CARICOM-MED
04-02-2009, 06:44 PM
Interesting take ;)
However, many DCs practice scientifically, there is a strong empirical evidence to the basis of Chiropractic. Spinal Manipulation was proven over and over as efficacious to low back pain and neck pain.
As long as DCs practice within their scope, I think they do a good job with MSK complaints. I was in a car accident years back, and attended a DC type practice. He really helped me. So, I am a "believer", nevertheless, many of my friends are DCs, the ones that practice MSK, or mixer type DCs, are science based, the straight ones, are not.......

With Medicine, we have tons of Pharmaceuticals doing research for us, as that is where the $$$ is.....we too see, lots of placebos, and non science based practices out there, that are solely based on empirical evidence......so why bash the DC profession ?? ;)

pvttimhall
04-02-2009, 06:55 PM
UHSA.. with all due respect.. I AM a chiropractor.. so I think I am a little bit better of a judge and I think I am in a better position to support or criticize it.

You may have gone to a chiro.. you may be a "believer".. but I trained for 4 years to be one.. practice as 7 years as one.. and continue to work on people.. I appreciate you being the vanguard of chiropractic...but I know the TRUTH about chiropractic, the practice, the education, the MIS-education, and more. The practice of chiropractic itself has very little evidence that it works on the mechanism that chiros preach. Does it work.. YES.. but.. scientific practice of chiropractic.. NO. They may try to be pseudo-physicians.. and that may be scientific.. but they practice of chiro is not.

CARICOM-MED
04-04-2009, 11:03 AM
Many posters on ValueMD claim they are something they are not !!
While I appreciate your information, care to sent me proof /evidence that you are a DC, and even if you are, chances are you attended one of the less science based Chiro Colleges out there ;)
My DC Colleagues that attended , Northwestern State U, NUHS, CMCC and Western States, really know what they are doing.....sorry ;)

BTW, which medical school did you go to and why ?? ;)
Also, how was the Transition from DC to MD ??

Cheers,

maximillian genossa
04-04-2009, 11:21 AM
Dude, don't get so personal, nobody needs to reveal any personal information here, besides he or she is stating an opinion from his/her experience. You can believe it or not, that simple. You have friends with different opinions, so what? No need to get personal just because this particular person has a different opinion than yours.


Many posters on ValueMD claim they are something they are not !!
While I appreciate your information, care to sent me proof /evidence that you are a DC, and even if you are, chances are you attended one of the less science based Chiro Colleges out there ;)
My DC Colleagues that attended , Northwestern State U, NUHS, CMCC and Western States, really know what they are doing.....sorry ;)

BTW, which medical school did you go to and why ?? ;)
Also, how was the Transition from DC to MD ??

Cheers,

pvttimhall
04-04-2009, 08:40 PM
That is OK.. I don't have to prove to someone that went to a shame medical school that I am a DC.

Not to bash YOU.. but UHSA is a shame school..plain and simple. I know a few DC's that went there when the ECFMG still allowed it. Some never could pass step one.. some took 3-4 board reviews and 6-12 months studying to pass step 1. Most never did a green book rotation.. but.. I do know of 5-6 that got a license to practice medicine.

I went to top school in the Northeast. I can send you a picture of my chiropractic caduceus tattoo on my arm, if that will help.

I understand that many on here lie about things.. but I can assure you that I don't. If you would like, I will tell you all about chiropractic, the practice of it.. the shame consultants, etc.

I will tell you that I practiced in the SE and I have two state licenses. I also have a designate of CCSP and CCEP (sport chiro and extremity). I can give you spinal "listings" of subluxations, tell you all about DD and BJ Palmer, diversified, Gonstead, mixers, straights, etc.

Trust me man.. I am a DC.

maximillian genossa
04-06-2009, 12:00 PM
Well, you definitely sounds like CHIRO, or Ex-Chiro, whatever fits your current situation.:cool:



That is OK.. I don't have to prove to someone that went to a shame medical school that I am a DC.

Not to bash YOU.. but UHSA is a shame school..plain and simple. I know a few DC's that went there when the ECFMG still allowed it. Some never could pass step one.. some took 3-4 board reviews and 6-12 months studying to pass step 1. Most never did a green book rotation.. but.. I do know of 5-6 that got a license to practice medicine.

I went to top school in the Northeast. I can send you a picture of my chiropractic caduceus tattoo on my arm, if that will help.

I understand that many on here lie about things.. but I can assure you that I don't. If you would like, I will tell you all about chiropractic, the practice of it.. the shame consultants, etc.

I will tell you that I practiced in the SE and I have two state licenses. I also have a designate of CCSP and CCEP (sport chiro and extremity). I can give you spinal "listings" of subluxations, tell you all about DD and BJ Palmer, diversified, Gonstead, mixers, straights, etc.

Trust me man.. I am a DC.

khiro
04-06-2009, 04:26 PM
i have to agree with pvttimhall on this logan video remark. are all of the chiro colleges like this? yes, and no. chiro colleges are a lot like the democratic party; lots of different views, different techniques, etc. where pretty much all techniques are tolerated if not accepted. i got to tell you i just never accepted the premise of sacro-occipital technique in school. yes, seth gross, dc will say that is the reason i am not a true "on-purpose" chiro. i made a D in that 1-hour technique class; strangely i consider it a badge of courage.

USHADOC is correct in dividing chiro schools into philosophy or "science". there are schools that teach heavily in each; but does it make a difference in the current professional appearance of chiropractic? probably not; there are students from philosophy schools who get licensed just like those from the "science" schools. the end is the same for either (lack of professional identity, recognition, payment, etc.) the attainment of financial stability usually has more to do with what state you practice in and what insurance contracts you are under; unless you use dr. gross' practice model of cash with low fees, and hopefully high volume.

USHADOC, i appreciate that you had positive experiences with chiros and most people have that i believe. and most lay people place far more significance on me being a "doctor" (referred as same as md; not dentist, podiatrist, optometrist; all are doctors, just separate practice emphasis) than i have ever put on myself. i recognized the severe educational differences between chiropractic and medicine. but should they be the same? should chiro education be increased? i used to think so; and if you want a complete overhaul of the profession, then it has to begin with education, but that has been talked about for ages. i have decided to say enough is enough. for those students and current chiros who are medically (scientific?) inclined my advice is go medicine. yes, that leaves the chiro profession to life graduates....

khiro

mrhealthie
10-06-2009, 12:46 PM
for my opinion... i think being a MD is still better than DC... although DC is more focus in to one aspect... but still its up to your choice...







Copyright © 2003-2018 ValueMD, LLC. All rights reserved.