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Xoynx
09-10-2008, 05:41 PM
I was in DO school for the past year, but I'm switching to DC. How does the workload compare?

bookite
09-10-2008, 06:00 PM
I was in DO school for the past year, but I'm switching to DC. How does the workload compare?

Unless you were kicked out try to get your spot back. You are already a year into it and when you finish you will be able to to a residency in something as well as OMT. Your reimbursement will be greater and you won't have to market as much as a DC does.

The workload is easier while in school but you will work harder to make a living when you get out.

Don't go the easy route you will regret it in the end.

Xoynx
09-10-2008, 07:34 PM
Unless you were kicked out try to get your spot back. You are already a year into it and when you finish you will be able to to a residency in something as well as OMT. Your reimbursement will be greater and you won't have to market as much as a DC does.

The workload is easier while in school but you will work harder to make a living when you get out.

Don't go the easy route you will regret it in the end.

Nah. With the heavy workload, there just wasn't time to practice OMT--after a year, I don't know much more than counterstrain and ME. At least in chiro school, I'll know the emphasis is on physical medicine, not as an afterthought. Besides, even with a DO degree, I'd have to do residency and then fellowship in OPP before I could hang a shingle. Just not cost-effective. I ran a massage-therapy clinic for ten years, so marketing doesn't scare me.

kanson
09-11-2008, 12:38 AM
..........................

khiro
09-11-2008, 10:37 AM
a rebel is in our midst. first, i know that you wanted the comparison b/t D.O. and D.C. education, and i believe that bookite and kanson answered your question correctly but also brought up the larger concern about what happens to you after you have your degree. obviously you are bright enough to get into a D.O. school, so you should be able to come to an informed decision regarding entry (and survival) in the chiropractic industry. both bookite and kanson WERE chiros but are now MDs. life is different for both i am sure. will Mds laugh at you like kanson wrote? not really; it will be much worse. you must realize that as a DC you will HAVE to "share" pts with mds (you cannot manage HBP, DM, etc). it is at this point where mds really can influence pts toward you or away from you. usually it is away (esp the famdoc). let me explain the situation in my area; most specialists are making less money today than they did 5 yrs ago. this due to insurance paying less per procedure, but also because of the famdoc failing to refer the patient to specialists as quickly as they did in the past (i know because i have watched it for 21 yrs now). when the local MD/DO or his league of PAs fail to refer a pt (either to me or a specialist), i dont believe that they go into the next room and snicker or laugh at me (chiropractic), but rather they simply mark the procedure codes and happily hop to the "next one". they certainly dont refer to each other; most of them tolerate each other from a distance, so why should they refer to me? there are specialists though to this day that i could call (i know better not to), and their answer is "we dont take pts from chiropractors". do you really wont to be treated like that?

you stated that you ran a massage clinic for 10 yrs so marketing doesnt scare you. that is good...keep that spirit b/c if you go into chiro you will definitely need it. a side note is that when i got started in 1987 i NEVER saw an ad in the paper by an MD or DO. patient educational "workshops" were done by enterprising chiros; now they are routinely done by mds/dos (always by specialists; the fam doc is slam packed). again, this is my experience in my area.

i really feel that there is a need for chiros only b/c the osteopath doesnt want to do manipulation and have a manipulation type of practice. if the one in my town was good at it (thankfully, he is terrible) i would be out of a job. if i were you, i would strongly reconsider the desire to exit osteopathy to go to chiro.

good luck. khiro

Xoynx
09-21-2008, 08:44 PM
think twice or even three or four times before u do something that will impact you for the rest of your life. stay in DO school and not only will you have a very broad scope of practice but also have a guranteed job anywhere.

Chiropractic (at NUHS, my school of choice) appears to provide nearly as broad of an education as a DO education--just no pharm, which is fine by me. And chiros can practice everywhere that I'd want to live. My background should make me an outstanding DC.

Xoynx
09-21-2008, 09:06 PM
a rebel is in our midst. first, i know that you wanted the comparison b/t D.O. and D.C. education, and i believe that bookite and kanson answered your question correctly but also brought up the larger concern about what happens to you after you have your degree. obviously you are bright enough to get into a D.O. school, so you should be able to come to an informed decision regarding entry (and survival) in the chiropractic industry. both bookite and kanson WERE chiros but are now MDs. life is different for both i am sure. will Mds laugh at you like kanson wrote? not really; it will be much worse. you must realize that as a DC you will HAVE to "share" pts with mds (you cannot manage HBP, DM, etc). it is at this point where mds really can influence pts toward you or away from you. usually it is away (esp the famdoc). let me explain the situation in my area; most specialists are making less money today than they did 5 yrs ago. this due to insurance paying less per procedure, but also because of the famdoc failing to refer the patient to specialists as quickly as they did in the past (i know because i have watched it for 21 yrs now). when the local MD/DO or his league of PAs fail to refer a pt (either to me or a specialist), i dont believe that they go into the next room and snicker or laugh at me (chiropractic), but rather they simply mark the procedure codes and happily hop to the "next one". they certainly dont refer to each other; most of them tolerate each other from a distance, so why should they refer to me? there are specialists though to this day that i could call (i know better not to), and their answer is "we dont take pts from chiropractors". do you really wont to be treated like that?

you stated that you ran a massage clinic for 10 yrs so marketing doesnt scare you. that is good...keep that spirit b/c if you go into chiro you will definitely need it. a side note is that when i got started in 1987 i NEVER saw an ad in the paper by an MD or DO. patient educational "workshops" were done by enterprising chiros; now they are routinely done by mds/dos (always by specialists; the fam doc is slam packed). again, this is my experience in my area.

i really feel that there is a need for chiros only b/c the osteopath doesnt want to do manipulation and have a manipulation type of practice. if the one in my town was good at it (thankfully, he is terrible) i would be out of a job. if i were you, i would strongly reconsider the desire to exit osteopathy to go to chiro.

good luck. khiro

I imagine that just as many MDs laugh at DCs as vice versa. Both sorts of person are ignorant and arrogant--a very unpleasant combination of shortcomings, and I try very hard to avoid such persons at all costs. That said, I'm not aware of any healthcare professional who does not refer patients to other kinds of practitioners--DCs refer out, as do MDs and DOs. Many students in my DO class have promised to refer their patients to me, even though they're trained in manipulation, because they know that I already excel at it. (And frankly, because many would have preferred an MD degree and have as little interest in manipulation as I have in surgery.) Granted, many lousy chiros have tarnished the reputation of the profession, but of what profession is that not true?

Yes, I expect that my entrepreneurial spirit will serve me well. This is, after all, a nation of capitalism, which is why mainstream medicine is in such trouble. I honestly don't know how I'd have thrived in a career so burdened with regulations and paperwork.

I'm sorry that the chiro profession didn't work out for many on this list. I guess it just takes a certain kind of person, as does MD/DO. Not that any of these professions are easy, but maybe we're just predisposed for one or the other.

Thanks for your input.

hunteradam07
09-21-2008, 10:22 PM
wait until you have to go to swap-meet, Walmart, and county fairs for spinal screening, then come back and give us how you feel about your career decisions. Although most of your friends might have promised you the refer services, bt in reality they will refer their patients to PM&R for all the physical medicine needs. For one thing it's way easier to bill as PM&R than DC any day unless you plan a cash only practice. So it seems to me that you are already set on your way to be DC, i wont try to talk you out of it at all. I just want you to come back and give u your input after first 3 years of practice. One last thing, DC has the highest default student loans rate comparing to any other health care services that should say something about the viability of the profession for you. Dont believe me look it up!

khiro
09-22-2008, 01:27 PM
i wish you the best in your decision. others (i) have tried to simply point out the difficulties in being a chiro as compared with a osteopath. regardless of what direction you take i will bet you will be a capitalist. most mds become more than just their degree. most are flush with money so they become investors (real estate, stocks, etc. ; even a carribean medical school owner!) nothing wrong with this! i have made far more money from my investments than my practice; b/c as my investments have grown, unfortunately for me, my practice has not.

years ago i invested a little money in a good company, with a good product, but times were bad and the industry went down and despite all efforts by the company, it had to declare bankruptcy. the ceo had a motto during those last 12 difficult months and i havent forgot it: face the facts; tell the truth; run the company.

while i do not anticipate declaring bankruptcy, i do this every day with chiropractic and my office.

simply put; it will be more opportunities to make money in osteopathy. if money or practice restrictions are not an issue, then i would consider optometry (less competition from big medicine).

khiro

bookite
09-22-2008, 06:44 PM
I imagine that just as many MDs laugh at DCs as vice versa. Both sorts of person are ignorant and arrogant--a very unpleasant combination of shortcomings, and I try very hard to avoid such persons at all costs. That said, I'm not aware of any healthcare professional who does not refer patients to other kinds of practitioners--DCs refer out, as do MDs and DOs. Many students in my DO class have promised to refer their patients to me, even though they're trained in manipulation, because they know that I already excel at it. (And frankly, because many would have preferred an MD degree and have as little interest in manipulation as I have in surgery.) Granted, many lousy chiros have tarnished the reputation of the profession, but of what profession is that not true?

Yes, I expect that my entrepreneurial spirit will serve me well. This is, after all, a nation of capitalism, which is why mainstream medicine is in such trouble. I honestly don't know how I'd have thrived in a career so burdened with regulations and paperwork.

I'm sorry that the chiro profession didn't work out for many on this list. I guess it just takes a certain kind of person, as does MD/DO. Not that any of these professions are easy, but maybe we're just predisposed for one or the other.

Thanks for your input.

Good for you. Keep positive over the next few years and work hard. Also if you want a more DC friendly environment you can go to Chrioweb.com I don't know much about the website but remember as a DC student surfing it.
good luck

Xoynx
09-30-2008, 06:54 PM
wait until you have to go to swap-meet, Walmart, and county fairs for spinal screening

You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking. Why the hell would you market your business among those kinds of demographics? There's no money there, son! I can see why you're so bitter about chiropractic--with that kind of entrepreneurialism, you're doomed to fail.

Xoynx
09-30-2008, 06:58 PM
Good for you. Keep positive over the next few years and work hard. Also if you want a more DC friendly environment you can go to Chrioweb.com I don't know much about the website but remember as a DC student surfing it.
good luck

Great site--thanks!

hunteradam07
09-30-2008, 10:33 PM
You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking. Why the hell would you market your business among those kinds of demographics? There's no money there, son! I can see why you're so bitter about chiropractic--with that kind of entrepreneurialism, you're doomed to fail.
Well first of all i dont market to those business, i only saw the countless booth at my local swap-meet and 2 at my walmarts. I graduated medical school, passed my step 1 (220/89), CS, working on my CK, and having several interview offers at University programs already, so my point is i am not bitter just telling it likes how i see it, SON! I am on my way to start an exciting life with medicine where i get to help people with real diseases and with the advance in all aspect of scientific research, i only see a bright day for medicine. Can you honestly say the same for your subluxation complex theory, Son? Tell me what advance in chiropractic do u see in the next ten years? At the end of the day, i decided to become a doctor (MD) not because it's a business. But i want to help people with real disease, so i dont worry about my enterpreneurialism. I want to do right for my patients not give unnecessary treatments while trying justify my repeat visit. Can you say that about yourself? But that is the point isnt it? You see chiropractic as a business while i see medicine as helping people in needs. So this is where we different, then i m sincerely apologize for my frank and openless in this forum.
P.S: if i m wrong why there are so many DCs going back to Medical schools as proven by countless post on this forum! How come i dont see any of MD going back to chiro school and getting their DCs? Can u explain that to me Son?

longchode
10-01-2008, 09:24 AM
P.S: if i m wrong why there are so many DCs going back to Medical schools as proven by countless post on this forum! How come i dont see any of MD going back to chiro school and getting their DCs? Can u explain that to me Son?edited for flaming and insults

khiro
10-01-2008, 10:42 AM
xoynx; as you read all of hunteradam's posts you should see a pattern. a pattern of pride in his choice of profession (medicine) and a disdain (or hate) for chiropractic. he mentions all of the negative aspects (medically speaking) of chiro; "subluxation theory", shady business practices of "repeat visits" and "marketing swap-meets". i know nothing of him but he knows quite a bit about the image (perception) of the average chiropractor. you have stated that you would like to go to national (its a good "medically-oriented" chiro school), and become a chiro. if so, do the comments from hunteradam bother you? are you concerned about joining a profession with such a low image (hunteradam is not alone in this thought)? what about the comments from others (the chiro from north carolina) who have repeatedly reported the difficulty with charges, and payments, the ongoing discrimination in medicare, etc.? please don't discard these as non-important.

for hunteradam; your comments do not bother me. they are true; and they are painful. chiropractic has a major issue with scientific-evidence based practice; as well as ethics. i wrote a paper on chiro ethics for my mba class, and believe me after doing the research, i was more than disappointed in my profession.

i was also disappointed and surprised to find that the birth of my daughter (well baby/mother and in hospital for 2 days) cost my insurance company $22,000.00.

you see, a lack of ethics (greed) is not confined to only the chiropractic profession. however, it is my issue in this post.

for xoynx, and others considering chiropractic it should be clear that there are alternatives to helping people through health-care, while making good money and being ethical at the same time. if you think you can do those while being a chiropractor then i wish you all the best, and remember, there are the hunteradam's of the world to remind you of your shortcomings.

GbrdTbrd
10-01-2008, 01:25 PM
The bottom line is this: if we got paid for what we did in an equitable manner, we'd never have to be doing things at Walmart; by the way, just because you do go out and meet people this way, it's not unethical nor is it a scam. I'm not sure what everyone else does, but these events give patients a chance to have their various conditions explained to them and to offer them the various options that are available, including medical options. Most chiros I have ever met don't use subluxation as a means to explain every problem or even a few of them including back and neck problems.

All I'm saying is that most chiros that I know are honorable individuals who are trying to do the right thing but the system is stacked against us. The examinations, x-rays, spinal adjusting, therapy modalities, counseling, education, and exercises I do/prescribe are just as good or better than my medical counterparts. But we're not being measured with the same stick and certainly not being reimbursed from the same fee schedule. Good for Adamhunter for picking a more reimbursable degree but please don't ever let the arrogance of organized medicine types like him talk down to you, whatever you choose. There is literally a plethora of books written from inside medicine detailing the waste, danger, and lack of cost effectiveness of the American system of medicine.

khiro
10-01-2008, 02:17 PM
i know how you feel about hunteradam's responses; i think that his tongue is a bit too sharp; however looking past that, i can see what is, unfortunately, perhaps what most of the public sees as well. i have yet to read that hunteradam doesn't agree with osteopathic manipulation, therapy, etc.. his main gripe is with chiropractic, its "belief" system, and questionable business practices. there are those within the profession that have those very concerns, so i hate to break it to him but he is not the only one who is concerned about the future of chiropractic. (ok, he isn't concerned about that, but that's ok with me as well).

there are those who believe that good ethics = good economics for chiropractors. we should start at good ethics no matter what happens after that.

i understand you response, and i agree that the system is stacked against chiropractors for equal reimbursement for the same procedures simply b/c of who we are. i remember a chiro from new jersey who when explaining why he was going to saba (which he did, and is now through with his residency), said "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". it was about economic survival for he and his family.

as for hunteradam: my comments stand. chiropractic has image, ethics, and reputation problems in most areas with the majority of the public. we only see 7-10% of the population nationally, and this figure has been banded around ever since i can remember. we have not improved, and true, some of the reasons for this are not our fault. the result is the same regretfully.

while i did mention one personal example of gross unethical billing with a hospital, i am not going to discuss the ethical problems within the drug/medical industry; they are numerous. hunteradam will have to deal with this on his own, as will each doctor and the public as consumers.

i will also assert that today's chiropractor (esp. the younger ones) is much more intelligent than the older ones (this is true in most industries) and with all of the unfortunate collateral damage in chiropractic i really cannot advocate that someone seriously consider it for a life long investment, when that same smart person can enter into other professions and not be distracted by image, ethics and reputation issues on state and national (legislative) levels. that is my sole reason for posting on this forum; only to advise those who are thinking of going into chiropractic of the difficulties and the alternatives that are available for most students.

khiro

hunteradam07
10-01-2008, 05:23 PM
i know how you feel about hunteradam's responses; i think that his tongue is a bit too sharp; however looking past that, i can see what is, unfortunately, perhaps what most of the public sees as well. i have yet to read that hunteradam doesn't agree with osteopathic manipulation, therapy, etc.. his main gripe is with chiropractic, its "belief" system, and questionable business practices. there are those within the profession that have those very concerns, so i hate to break it to him but he is not the only one who is concerned about the future of chiropractic. (ok, he isn't concerned about that, but that's ok with me as well).

there are those who believe that good ethics = good economics for chiropractors. we should start at good ethics no matter what happens after that.

i understand you response, and i agree that the system is stacked against chiropractors for equal reimbursement for the same procedures simply b/c of who we are. i remember a chiro from new jersey who when explaining why he was going to saba (which he did, and is now through with his residency), said "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". it was about economic survival for he and his family.

as for hunteradam: my comments stand. chiropractic has image, ethics, and reputation problems in most areas with the majority of the public. we only see 7-10% of the population nationally, and this figure has been banded around ever since i can remember. we have not improved, and true, some of the reasons for this are not our fault. the result is the same regretfully.

while i did mention one personal example of gross unethical billing with a hospital, i am not going to discuss the ethical problems within the drug/medical industry; they are numerous. hunteradam will have to deal with this on his own, as will each doctor and the public as consumers.

i will also assert that today's chiropractor (esp. the younger ones) is much more intelligent than the older ones (this is true in most industries) and with all of the unfortunate collateral damage in chiropractic i really cannot advocate that someone seriously consider it for a life long investment, when that same smart person can enter into other professions and not be distracted by image, ethics and reputation issues on state and national (legislative) levels. that is my sole reason for posting on this forum; only to advise those who are thinking of going into chiropractic of the difficulties and the alternatives that are available for most students.

khiro
I agree w most of what u are saying. What i am asking for is accountability for DCs. What i mean by that is simply this; if i go to DCs in CA, i should get a similiar treatment protocal than the one in Iowa or somewhere else shouldnt I? But in reality is you cant never tell by going from one DC office to another. Which one is using diversify technique plus rehab, while someone might claim to put vitamin sublingual to cure ur neuroms disease or might try to massage your aura via NET or BEST techniques. Yes going to swap-meet for patients is wrong doesnt matter how you put at it, because it's not professional setting to conduct health related issues. Plus with a image problem already why would u do that? Furthermore, I sat through 4 different spinal screening and everyone of them said i have serious subluxation syndrome even though i m not or ever diagnosed with scoliosis or and never have chronic back pain. What really kill me is of 4 of the spinal screening, none can say where is my problem: one say it was my C0/C1 level, another say it was my lumbar spine, and other say i have deviation on my spine at thoracic level. Where is the consensus here? If my disease is really there would you experts get it close to the same area? I dont see MDs having the same issues with most disease diagnosis. At least they get most of the organs rite!
Look at the end of the day, i will be a MD and i will keep my open to proven alternative treatments that i am not aware of. Hwever, unless DCs have a standard of treatment, you will never be accepted at the same or even close to that level. I simply ask for more standard in your profession. And shouldnt you be the one who asking it instead of me? After all i m a MD!

hunteradam07
10-01-2008, 05:32 PM
Maybe you don't see the MD's going to DC school because this is a forum for People Who Were Not Good Enough To Get Into An American Medical School, either by being to damn dumb or messed around to much in undergrad. Either way you are on this board because you didn't have the right stuff and had to settle for the carribean. There are no Chiro schools down there. I am a chiro, its what I choose to be, in my class we had 2 MD's going back to school. We had MD's teaching us, working in our clinics. Just because YOU don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Again this is a board for people that settled and couldn't get into a real school. Remember that at the end of the day when someone asks you where you went to school.

I read this forum because my youngest brother screwed up in undergrad and ended up down there. He said to read some of the crap you guys put up.
I would proudly say that i came from medical school in Philippines. And i passed USMLE and will do my residency in US university programs. I have no problem with that. And i pretty sure my patients wont either, because they understand that it doesnt matter where u started but where u finished in life that count. At the end of the days instead of asking the hard question and try to do better for your patients, you rather attack me and where i go to school that is interesting. Let me just remind you this 40% of all Internal Medicine doctors in this country are IMG. So next time you go to your real doctor for check up or prefer, you might want to ask him where did he go to school and also insult his medical degree is also good start with ur doctor. So as i continue with my career as MD and see real patients and treating real disease, i will always think of your comment when i see a spinal screening booth at swap-meet or wallmart and remind me how lucky i am to be an MD :). Good luck with ur office and profession. Heh maybe u need some pointer on going back to medical school, dont hesitate to ask me at all! Seriously i dont mind giving you any advice i can, because i understand as an IMG i always going to have to prove myself :)

stephew
10-01-2008, 08:38 PM
Children: the terms of service must be abided by. Infractions will be given for those who violate them. No further warning.

Xoynx
10-05-2008, 08:25 PM
Well first of all i dont market to those business, i only saw the countless booth at my local swap-meet and 2 at my walmarts. I graduated medical school, passed my step 1 (220/89), CS, working on my CK, and having several interview offers at University programs already, so my point is i am not bitter just telling it likes how i see it, SON! I am on my way to start an exciting life with medicine where i get to help people with real diseases and with the advance in all aspect of scientific research, i only see a bright day for medicine. Can you honestly say the same for your subluxation complex theory, Son? Tell me what advance in chiropractic do u see in the next ten years? At the end of the day, i decided to become a doctor (MD) not because it's a business. But i want to help people with real disease, so i dont worry about my enterpreneurialism. I want to do right for my patients not give unnecessary treatments while trying justify my repeat visit. Can you say that about yourself? But that is the point isnt it? You see chiropractic as a business while i see medicine as helping people in needs. So this is where we different, then i m sincerely apologize for my frank and openless in this forum.
P.S: if i m wrong why there are so many DCs going back to Medical schools as proven by countless post on this forum! How come i dont see any of MD going back to chiro school and getting their DCs? Can u explain that to me Son?

Wow, quite a few questions there! I'll do my best to help you out.

1. Can you honestly say the same for your subluxation complex theory, Son? Not having started DC school yet, I don't know anything about subluxation complex theory. But I'd be very surprised to discover that the entire profession is based on any single theory. I'm surprised, however, to hear you so positive about the future of medicine (I assume you mean allopathy) when the rest of the country is so down on it and increasing in favor of chiropractic.

2. Tell me what advance in chiropractic do u see in the next ten years? Again, I'm just a student--I don't know why you're turning to me for help. But just off the top of my head, I'd love to see some research on the relationship between sleeping positions and somatic dysfunction.

3. Can you say that about yourself? I intend to treat my patients the same way my own DC treats his: if he can't provide satisfactory improvement, he refers out. He never sees any patient on a regular basis. Allopaths, however, are notorious for writing never-ending scripts. Not their fault entirely; the pharmaceutical-industrial complex encourages such behavior.

4. But that is the point isnt it? You see chiropractic as a business while i see medicine as helping people in needs. I acknowledge that chiropractic is a business; you apparently don't understand that all other branches of medicine are as well. I just prefer to avoid all that managed-care nonsense.

5. why there are so many DCs going back to Medical schools as proven by countless post on this forum! How come i dont see any of MD going back to chiro school and getting their DCs? Can u explain that to me Son? As I've already pointed out, some people aren't cut out to run a business. They're a lot happier letting a bureaucracy run things for them, much as artists have agents. Also, if an allopath were interested in physical medicine, he'd become a DO in the first place, not just an MD.

Hope that helps!

Xoynx
10-05-2008, 08:33 PM
xoynx; as you read all of hunteradam's posts you should see a pattern. a pattern of pride in his choice of profession (medicine) and a disdain (or hate) for chiropractic. he mentions all of the negative aspects (medically speaking) of chiro; "subluxation theory", shady business practices of "repeat visits" and "marketing swap-meets". i know nothing of him but he knows quite a bit about the image (perception) of the average chiropractor. you have stated that you would like to go to national (its a good "medically-oriented" chiro school), and become a chiro. if so, do the comments from hunteradam bother you? are you concerned about joining a profession with such a low image (hunteradam is not alone in this thought)? what about the comments from others (the chiro from north carolina) who have repeatedly reported the difficulty with charges, and payments, the ongoing discrimination in medicare, etc.? please don't discard these as non-important.

for hunteradam; your comments do not bother me. they are true; and they are painful. chiropractic has a major issue with scientific-evidence based practice; as well as ethics. i wrote a paper on chiro ethics for my mba class, and believe me after doing the research, i was more than disappointed in my profession.

i was also disappointed and surprised to find that the birth of my daughter (well baby/mother and in hospital for 2 days) cost my insurance company $22,000.00.

you see, a lack of ethics (greed) is not confined to only the chiropractic profession. however, it is my issue in this post.

for xoynx, and others considering chiropractic it should be clear that there are alternatives to helping people through health-care, while making good money and being ethical at the same time. if you think you can do those while being a chiropractor then i wish you all the best, and remember, there are the hunteradam's of the world to remind you of your shortcomings.

No, hunteradam's comments don't bug me. I've been a massage therapist for ten years and have had to endure much skepticism from the ignorant. I know that chiropractic works--it's done wonders for my wife and me. I don't think it's a panacea--no treatment is--but I can't wait to begin to effect my own miracles, much as I already accomplish with MT.

As for the criticism from others about DC charlatans, discrimination from mainstream healthcare, et al, I'm ready for it. Before I dropped out of DO school, I had to deal with MD instructors who openly criticized OPP. The ignorant are everywhere, and I welcome opportunities to educate them.

Xoynx
10-05-2008, 08:38 PM
...Good for Adamhunter for picking a more reimbursable degree but please don't ever let the arrogance of organized medicine types like him talk down to you, whatever you choose. There is literally a plethora of books written from inside medicine detailing the waste, danger, and lack of cost effectiveness of the American system of medicine.

If it were all about the money and the superior reimbursement, I'd just become a DO. But I'd prefer to avoid all the crap that allopaths have to deal with. That's just me.

Xoynx
10-05-2008, 08:51 PM
I agree w most of what u are saying. What i am asking for is accountability for DCs. What i mean by that is simply this; if i go to DCs in CA, i should get a similiar treatment protocal than the one in Iowa or somewhere else shouldnt I? But in reality is you cant never tell by going from one DC office to another. Which one is using diversify technique plus rehab, while someone might claim to put vitamin sublingual to cure ur neuroms disease or might try to massage your aura via NET or BEST techniques. Yes going to swap-meet for patients is wrong doesnt matter how you put at it, because it's not professional setting to conduct health related issues. Plus with a image problem already why would u do that? Furthermore, I sat through 4 different spinal screening and everyone of them said i have serious subluxation syndrome even though i m not or ever diagnosed with scoliosis or and never have chronic back pain. What really kill me is of 4 of the spinal screening, none can say where is my problem: one say it was my C0/C1 level, another say it was my lumbar spine, and other say i have deviation on my spine at thoracic level. Where is the consensus here? If my disease is really there would you experts get it close to the same area? I dont see MDs having the same issues with most disease diagnosis. At least they get most of the organs rite!
Look at the end of the day, i will be a MD and i will keep my open to proven alternative treatments that i am not aware of. Hwever, unless DCs have a standard of treatment, you will never be accepted at the same or even close to that level. I simply ask for more standard in your profession. And shouldnt you be the one who asking it instead of me? After all i m a MD!

If I were to go to an allopath in CA, would I be guaranteed that that doctor would follow the same protocol as one elsewhere? Of course not. Medicine and physicians just aren't that simple. Second opinions and all that.

That said, much research obviously remains to be done for physical medicine. Because physical medicine has no equivalent of Big Pharm to fund such research, I wouldn't expect EBM to validate much of chiropractic in the foreseeable future. That's unfortunate, but it's no reflection of the merit of physical medicine.

And what's all this about the Quest for Acceptance? Chiropractic has been around for more than a century; sounds pretty accepted to me. If anything, the mainstream medical system is becoming increasingly under fire, whereas more and more patients are turning to alternative medicine. I'm climbing aboard DC at just the right time!

hunteradam07
10-05-2008, 09:29 PM
Wow, quite a few questions there! I'll do my best to help you out.

1. Can you honestly say the same for your subluxation complex theory, Son? Not having started DC school yet, I don't know anything about subluxation complex theory. But I'd be very surprised to discover that the entire profession is based on any single theory. I'm surprised, however, to hear you so positive about the future of medicine (I assume you mean allopathy) when the rest of the country is so down on it and increasing in favor of chiropractic.

2. Tell me what advance in chiropractic do u see in the next ten years? Again, I'm just a student--I don't know why you're turning to me for help. But just off the top of my head, I'd love to see some research on the relationship between sleeping positions and somatic dysfunction.

3. Can you say that about yourself? I intend to treat my patients the same way my own DC treats his: if he can't provide satisfactory improvement, he refers out. He never sees any patient on a regular basis. Allopaths, however, are notorious for writing never-ending scripts. Not their fault entirely; the pharmaceutical-industrial complex encourages such behavior.

4. But that is the point isnt it? You see chiropractic as a business while i see medicine as helping people in needs. I acknowledge that chiropractic is a business; you apparently don't understand that all other branches of medicine are as well. I just prefer to avoid all that managed-care nonsense.

5. why there are so many DCs going back to Medical schools as proven by countless post on this forum! How come i dont see any of MD going back to chiro school and getting their DCs? Can u explain that to me Son? As I've already pointed out, some people aren't cut out to run a business. They're a lot happier letting a bureaucracy run things for them, much as artists have agents. Also, if an allopath were interested in physical medicine, he'd become a DO in the first place, not just an MD.

Hope that helps!

The rest of the country is down on medicine, really. Where did u read that from? Is it out of ACA? Let me ask my attending to see if he sees the same way as u. Hmm, But with the new research coming out of Genetic, stem cells, and more, i m not sure if medicine is really in trouble. If it's really in trouble like you say, i can always enroll in Chiropractic school for few weeks and get my DC degree, cant I? I bet you if i want to all my MD classes will be transferable to DC school and i wont even spend more than 3 months of adjusting seminar to get my DC degree.
Here is an exert of some bias research that help clear up you simple subluxation theory. You can read the full article in my other post:

"In 1973, Yale University anatomist Edmund Crelin, Ph.D., demonstrated that subluxations severe enough to impinge upon the nerves exiting through openings between the spinal bones were impossible to produce without total disablement [3]. He subsequently observed that instead of the scientific response of attempting to reproduce his research, the ACA simply declared that his work was invalid because it was done on cadavers [4]. In fact, Crelin states, the absence of a reflex response in a dead body should make subluxations easier to produce. Faced with this evidence, a true-believing chiropractor once remarked to me that the reason Crelin had failed to demonstrate the chiropractic hypothesis was that he worked with cadavers in which Innate Life Force was no longer present!
An excuse chiropractors employed for years for the lack of scientific evidence for their theory was that the government wouldn't provide the necessary research funding. The falsity of this claim was exposed in 1972, when the International Chiropractic Association reported that the federal government had approved a grant for Chung Ha Suh, Ph.D., at the University of Colorado, to develop a method for measuring spinal configurations to determine the existence of chiropractic subluxations and that the grant application was the first in chiropractic's history [5].
Scott Haldeman, D.C., M.Sc., Ph.D., M.D., a third-generation chiropractor whose personal commitment to validating chiropractic led him to obtain a medical degree and advanced degrees in neurophysiology, has criticized the attempts of Suh and others "to find more accurate ways of measuring a subluxation in the absence of any solid data that the subluxation is worth measuring." [6] Although providing chiropractic public relations personnel with fodder for a decade, Suh's work on the illusive subluxation never got anywhere and now seems fruitless at best.
Lack of Clinical Reliability

Apologists have some room for defensive debate because of the difficulty of establishing mechanisms of cause and effect in many other fields of science. An easier and more practical test of chiropractic is that of the reliability (i.e., consistency) of chiropractors' clinical ability to identify subluxations. They have not fared well in these tests.
Investigative reporter Ralph Lee Smith visited the Palmer Clinic in Davenport, Iowa, and the National College Clinic at Lombard, Illinois, on two successive days. At Palmer he was told that he had subluxations at the ninth dorsal and the fifth lumbar; at National a subluxation was diagnosed at the fifth dorsal only. Neither found other subluxations alleged by another chiropractor seen earlier [7].
In 1973, Stephen Barrett, M.D., sent a healthy four-year-old girl to five chiropractors for a"'check up.'"The first said the child's shoulder blades were "out of place" and found "pinched nerves to her stomach and gall bladder." The second said the child's pelvis was "twisted." The third said one hip was "elevated" and that spinal misalignments could cause "headaches, nervousness, equilibrium or digestive problems" in the future. The fourth predicted "bad periods and rough childbirth" if her "shorter left leg" were not treated. The fifth not only found hip and neck problems, but also "adjusted" them without bothering to ask permission. Several years later, 11 chiropractors who examined two adult women had similarly inconsistent findings [8].
Mark L. Brown, a reporter for the Quad City Times, serving the Davenport, Iowa, area, conducted his own five-month investigation of the practice of chiropractic. He produced an insightful 36-page Sunday newspaper supplement revealing some bizarre as well as some useful practices. Brown also found numerous inconsistencies, including diagnoses that his left leg was shorter than his right leg and vice versa! [9]
Isolation

Chiropractors commonly blame others for their lack of science, claiming to have been isolated by organized medicine. In reality, chiropractic's isolation is self-imposed. Chiropractors substitute chiropractic philosophy for science and commonly boast of intellectual superiority. True-believers say that someday the world will acknowledge the greatness of chiropractic. It would be impossible for chiropractors who adhere to chiropractic theory and philosophy to work with scientific healthcare providers. Chiropractors' concepts of the causes and treatments of disease differ radically; and, although health scientists worldwide can bridge barriers of language and culture via the common ground of basic science, they cannot work with pseudoscientists.
There is considerable concern about the wisdom of permitting chiropractors to serve as entry-level health-care providers. Practitioners devoted to a pseudoscientific approach to disease are apt to miss serious diseases when hearing patient complaints. Reformist chiropractor Peter Modde concluded that malpractice is an inevitable result of chiropractic training and philosophy [10] .
How widely the subluxation theory is believed among chiropractors is uncertain. In a 1981 report, 88% of 268 responding chiropractors gave subluxations in musculoskeletal problems an importance of 70 % or more, and 60% of 265 respondents gave subluxations in visceral disorders a rating of 70% or more [11]. A similar survey conducted today would probably show smaller but still substantial percentages. The proportion of chiropractors who believe in the metaphysical Innate Life Force is unknown."

Since u are just a student you might want to look at some of DC webb posts clearly defined what it's that he thinks of Chiro school and education. And why is it that DCs have the highest default graduate school student loans rate? Remember what u are going to own when u done with chiro school is not small chance, so make sure u get yourself and nice confortable table at swap-meet-going to take along long time to pay off as DC or default it like everyone else-And your last point about artist and agent, Have you heard of something called PMNR: Physical Medicine and Rehab doctor, they are MD that specialist in rehab. Trust me they know more rehab than anyone that i know. In fact, they have to do 3 years of residency on top of 4 years medical school. How many years is your residency or training as DC? I would love to get your opinion on the full length article in my other post. Please show the same deligent/reference as the author instead of just saying that he is anti-chiro. thanks

hunteradam07
10-05-2008, 09:59 PM
"If I were to go to an allopath in CA, would I be guaranteed that that doctor would follow the same protocol as one elsewhere? Of course not. Medicine and physicians just aren't that simple. Second opinions and all that."

Yes they would. They would have to start out with hx, PE, ddx, lab, and treatment. It's standard training in residency. Second opinion is completely different, it's only if an MD doesnt have a clear dx on the pt disease and treatment. That is usually when they refer it out for second opinion.
Let put it this way: If u have a sorethroat, and u go see an MD in CA, trust me he would do the samething as someone in NY. He would take your hx, exam, then on what kind info he gets from Hx&PE he might order culture and blood work or treatment with Pencillin (strep throat). But trust me the wont start doing prostate exam or vaginal exam, if there is no hx indicate it. Unlike going to DC, as many researchs have showed that diff DCs examing the same patient, they dont even get the level of subluxation consistently with each other, let alone what kind of treatment. MD has what they call Gold Standard of practice, because if they dont do what they suppose to they will get sue. Where is that same standard in chiro?

Elixir
10-20-2008, 08:18 PM
I was accepted to a DO school back in 2003, but I didn't go. I went to a DC school because my then girlfriend was near the DC school and I wanted to save out relationship and not have physical distance between us. I always wanted to learn how to manipulate (adjust) so that is why I chose DO and then DC. At that time I thought that there was not much difference and that I would have a great life practicing as a DC. I saw early that I was mistaken.

Not going to the DO school was the worst decision of my life. I practiced for just about two years and realized that I would be 50 years old and still be at the mall, fairs, or Walmart doing spinal screenings. If I was lucky, maybe I would be able to hire some associate DC and take advantage of them (just like my friends from DC school and I were taken advantage of while practicing) and send them out to get patients.

I am now at AUC on St. Maarten getting my MD. Happy about the decision, but not happy that I would be in residency now rather than hoping that I will get a residency after finishing school.

khiro
10-21-2008, 12:11 PM
you will get to that residency! i believe in providence, so there was a reason for you to go chiro; just like there was a reason for you to go MD.

i am noticing that the trend, at least on this forum, is for chiros to persue the MD at a much earlier pace (less than 10 years) than that in the late 80s and the 90s. in that era, the change was after 10 years or so of practice a chiro would leave and "go MD". I know that there are the exceptions, but this just struck me as a change from the past (from my personal observations and experience). this is probably b/c of the increased competition, as well as the decaying insurance reimbursement situation (and any number of a million different personal reasons).

to those who are reading this forum, and are trying to decide what to do, or when to do it; please learn from others....what they did that was right, and wrong. elixir tried to practice and decided early to move on; and in his case, it was to medical school. for others it may be dental, or something all together non-medical. he used his youth and took advantage of his flexibility to go a different direction. no career is perfect, but you need to understand that chiropractic is vastly different from what it was in the 1990s and early 2000s (as is medicine), but medicine will survive and its doctors will get paid a good income (it is almost a guarantee). there is nothing close to that for chiropractors.

khiro

bookite
10-21-2008, 04:28 PM
I was accepted to a DO school back in 2003, but I didn't go. I went to a DC school because my then girlfriend was near the DC school and I wanted to save out relationship and not have physical distance between us. I always wanted to learn how to manipulate (adjust) so that is why I chose DO and then DC. At that time I thought that there was not much difference and that I would have a great life practicing as a DC. I saw early that I was mistaken.

Not going to the DO school was the worst decision of my life. I practiced for just about two years and realized that I would be 50 years old and still be at the mall, fairs, or Walmart doing spinal screenings. If I was lucky, maybe I would be able to hire some associate DC and take advantage of them (just like my friends from DC school and I were taken advantage of while practicing) and send them out to get patients.

I am now at AUC on St. Maarten getting my MD. Happy about the decision, but not happy that I would be in residency now rather than hoping that I will get a residency after finishing school.

It just keeps getting better. I love what I do and it gets better everyday. While I enjoyed chiropractic I am a broad spectrum kind of guy. With the larger scope of practice I don't see myself getting bored for a long time. Do well on Step one and two and you will have no problem getting a great residency.

Good luck and enjoy your time on SXM.
The grass is greener once your out of school.

hunteradam07
10-21-2008, 05:03 PM
I was accepted to a DO school back in 2003, but I didn't go. I went to a DC school because my then girlfriend was near the DC school and I wanted to save out relationship and not have physical distance between us. I always wanted to learn how to manipulate (adjust) so that is why I chose DO and then DC. At that time I thought that there was not much difference and that I would have a great life practicing as a DC. I saw early that I was mistaken.

Not going to the DO school was the worst decision of my life. I practiced for just about two years and realized that I would be 50 years old and still be at the mall, fairs, or Walmart doing spinal screenings. If I was lucky, maybe I would be able to hire some associate DC and take advantage of them (just like my friends from DC school and I were taken advantage of while practicing) and send them out to get patients.

I am now at AUC on St. Maarten getting my MD. Happy about the decision, but not happy that I would be in residency now rather than hoping that I will get a residency after finishing school.
Thanks for your candid view especially in term of mall, fairs, ro walmart spinal screeings. I said same and got attack on this forum by DCs and former DCs. Let hope you wont have to go through the same process. But that is good that you said what needed to be said and often not from DCs recruiters.

Elixir
10-21-2008, 07:25 PM
I enjoyed practice as a chiro, but I did not enjoy the limited scope. i know that I chose chiro and the scope of practice that came with it, but I realized that I was already getting bored. I also realized that ten years from now I would be even more bored, so MD was the right thing to do. I was not getting any younger at 32 years old, so there was no time like the present.

I also realized that I was the only "Doctor" who was out doing pt. recruitment at gyms, malls, etc. I realized that I was going to have to do pt. recruitment before I left school, but it was tough because I saw many MD's and DO's from the medical community who would workout or shop where I was and I felt embarrassed. I just realized that the things involved in building a successful chiro practice were not for me.

hunteradam07
10-21-2008, 08:17 PM
yep that was how i felt about it. I didnt see how what i do as DC is unique compare to PT or PMNR. What is it that i do and they cant? Nothing, but however, i cant prescribe, no hosptial privilage, no refers, and many many more. I wised up and went to MD route. Jz wish i didnt buy into the hype from dc recuiters tat would save me >100G+ and 4 yrs of my life. Oh well at least i m almost there. Good luck w u too E!

khiro
10-22-2008, 07:49 AM
Elixir; you say that you were taken advantage of by older chiros? that you had to recruit in places and in situations where you were embarrassed (b/c you were a dc)? and that you probably were made to "feel" inferior? that the limited scope of practice left you restless or bored?

well, i my opinion, you have just stated the primary reasons most young chiros leave the profession and search other careers (more than a few go to med school).

khiro

Elixir
10-22-2008, 02:00 PM
I had so many conversations with classmates who were in bad situations as associate docs, and they didn't have the means to start their own practices. I personally did everything I could to get patients in to the practice I was in. It was never good enough. All I ever heard was bring more, but I didn't get the payment that I was supposed to get in the negotiated contract.

I worked in a multidisc. practice with a PM&R doc, PT, and LMT. It was mostly PI, but I was able to bring in pts otherwise. The owner, an out of town DC, came in the one day and "had to let me go" because he couldn't afford my measly salary. I was making them a bunch of money, so that was crap. Then within two sentences of letting me go, he asked me if I would be interested in leasing space in the office and if I would cover days and pts for them when he, the out of town DC, couldn't make it into town to treat pts. He just wanted to cut his bottom line. I already had my acceptance to AUC, so I didn't care much other than getting the money that was owed to me (which I got). It just showed me how things were, and I know many others who are having a rough go of it in practice.

I also saw the PM&R doc going home at least two hours before I was able to leave the office. On top of that he was making 4 times what I was, while seeing fewer patients. The light came on pretty quick that I needed to change for me.

hunteradam07
10-22-2008, 02:42 PM
Yep none of these that you mentioned E were in my recruiting bronchure arent they? All they said were you going to be a doc that helping a lot of people, and you will be well compensated. They showed me this doc and that doc salaries! But noone mention the fact that there is little if not none high paying job postgrad. I got a friend who was paid 10 dollars/hr as a DC in office and he was happied to get that job. I tried for like 3 mons to find a job post-grad. In the end i got lucky and found a multi-dis practice that started 60,000/yr plus bonus. I was very happy worked for a few yrs before going back to med school. Trust me things are much worst for most of my classmates. They often asked me if we are hiring and they take anything! The desperations were profound in their voices. You know these are the facts that a lot of DCs will not admit to about their profession. Instead they sugarcoated as well you know the economy, you know you have to work hard, you know MD out to get you, but what they dont say and it's a fact that "DCs eat their young!" This wisdom was passed on to me by Dr. Philipps at SCUH. When i have my Med office in the future, i will proudly hang my DC diploma along with my MD licensed, because it's a reminder for me that DONT EVER BUY INTO THE HYPE! Especially those who tell you to go to Walmart, Swap-meet, and 50 50 percent practice! I m sure i get some attack on this.

Elixir
10-22-2008, 05:36 PM
60G, I'm impressed. I was only able to get 52 with bonus on top, which was hardly paid until the job was over.
I knew that chiro was going to be difficult because after all it is a business and many businesses fail. I just didn't want to believe that it was that bad because I saw so many successful chiros. Well those guys were in practice for decades, and made their money. Now even those guys aren't making what they used to. We had a couple of professors in our school that told us how it really was and how the old timers would eat their young. Well those docs did not last long at the school. What a shame that they were gotten rid of because I learned the most from them in so many ways.

Now I am on a long road that is really quite short when you think about it. Everyday in med school is interesting, and I realize that there is so much out there to learn. I have to say that my chiro school actually did prepare me pretty well for med school, but that was because we had a very medical program. Which the students of my school took a lot of crap about when we were around chiro students from other schools. I can just hear them and many students from my school saying why do we need to know this stuff? I am only going to be adjusting people. My response was always, "you know we are going to be doctors and we should know what doctors are expected to know." I am certainly glad that I took it seriously because it helped my patients when I was practicing and is helping me now in med school.

hunteradam07
10-22-2008, 07:05 PM
Hang in there E it will go by fast. Yea i agreed w u about some of chiro classes really helped me in Med school. I didnt even study for Ana and got 90% overall. And it helps me a lot during my step 1 neuroAna section+CK rheuma/neuro UW section. Dont worry time will go by fast, just concentrate on ur study and do well on all ur steps. You will be on ur way to be come a "real" doc this time around. NO more swap-meet and walmart for u. And once u have your office, you can always hire some newly grad chiro "slave" to adjust, massage, and modalities stuffs for you. And trust me i m sure they take anything especially you are in MD office now. They would sell their soul for the opportunity hahahaha. Yea i was kind of lucky to get decent paying job, bought my house for a few yrs, sold it when market was high, paid of my student loan from chiro school (130g), then head to med school. So you be done quick trust me! Good luck.







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