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azskeptic
02-15-2008, 03:38 PM
Caribbean Net News: St Kitts in hot water over allegations of animal abuse at veterinary school (http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/news-6062--35-35--.html)

DOC.p
02-15-2008, 04:07 PM
yikes....how did PETA get ahold of this information though, disgruntled students?

azskeptic
02-15-2008, 04:23 PM
It would appear that,eh? PETA never misses an opportunity for a negative article on research or training involving animals. They are after the Westminister Dog Show people also this week.


yikes....how did PETA get ahold of this information though, disgruntled students?

sisyphus
02-18-2008, 07:10 PM
Definitely sounds like disgruntled student(s). I don't think they realized that many schools in the U.S. and other places also perform terminal surgeries and practice procedures on animals in ways which have been determined to be humane by IACUC.

PETA can be quite enraging at times.

ay04
02-18-2008, 07:32 PM
hopefully they dont start throwing red paint at the students as they walk to class

MDXRS22
02-18-2008, 08:56 PM
This is a payback or a retake from a student. Maybe my neighbor's dog was the exposed animal. LOL. I hate that dog so bad!

neilseigel100
02-19-2008, 07:57 AM
Hi everyone,

I know this may be an unpopular opinion here -- but, I don't understand why people on this forum are saying just because other vet schools perform invasive / terminal surgeries on animals for vet training, this makes it ok for Ross to do so. This is akin to saying well Johnny down the street killed my dog, so it must be okay for me to kill my neighbor's dog. This is nonsense. There is NO NEED to harm animals for vet training -- British vet schools do not conduct terminal surgeries or invasive procedures that are detrimental to the animals. St. Kitts (where Ross is based) used to be a British colony, so one would think they would follow the Brit vet school tradition, but I guess they are intent on killing animals for no reason. C'mon y'all...veterinarian are supposed to be helping animals, not needlessly killing them. There ARE better ways to learn.

DOC.p
02-19-2008, 08:26 AM
Hi everyone,

I know this may be an unpopular opinion here -- but, I don't understand why people on this forum are saying just because other vet schools perform invasive / terminal surgeries on animals for vet training, this makes it ok for Ross to do so. This is akin to saying well Johnny down the street killed my dog, so it must be okay for me to kill my neighbor's dog. This is nonsense. There is NO NEED to harm animals for vet training -- British vet schools do not conduct terminal surgeries or invasive procedures that are detrimental to the animals. St. Kitts (where Ross is based) used to be a British colony, so one would think they would follow the Brit vet school tradition, but I guess they are intent on killing animals for no reason. C'mon y'all...veterinarian are supposed to be helping animals, not needlessly killing them. There ARE better ways to learn.
well that's not really the debate here...i don't know a lot about vet schools and their standards but if Ross is following the same standards that US schools are and if they are allowed to perform these surgeries by these regulations, then there is no argument. whether it is ethical or not is a completely different story but if Ross is not doing anything illegal, i don't think there is much PETA can do about it.

neilseigel100
02-19-2008, 02:11 PM
Ross is based in St. Kitts, which is it's own independent nation. Under their cruetly statutes, they are not allowed to inflict "unnecessary suffering" to animals. So, the point is, if Brit vet schools can train their vet students w/o harming animals, then Ross' practice of harming animals constitutes "unnecessary suffering," and this is against St. Kitts law. So, yes, PETA can do something about this case at Ross and I hope they succeed. Hopefully, Ross can be a model for other vet schools in the US to emulate, once they get their act together.

sisyphus
02-19-2008, 09:44 PM
Ross is based in St. Kitts, which is it's own independent nation. Under their cruetly statutes, they are not allowed to inflict "unnecessary suffering" to animals. So, the point is, if Brit vet schools can train their vet students w/o harming animals, then Ross' practice of harming animals constitutes "unnecessary suffering," and this is against St. Kitts law. So, yes, PETA can do something about this case at Ross and I hope they succeed. Hopefully, Ross can be a model for other vet schools in the US to emulate, once they get their act together.

I understand your opinion and despite my previous brief comment I don't believe our views are all that far apart.

I must admit I don't know exactly what occurs specifically at Ross but I assume that it isn't different from an average american-based veterinary education. My question to you is, how do st. kitts and yourself define "unnecessary suffering?" It could be argued that slaughtering of animals for food is unnecessary, if this argument is taken to an extreme and many people believe this to be true. I am not one of these people, but I can appreciate this point-of-view also.

Maybe the PETA actions will be impactful, maybe they won't, but I have frequent objections to the ways in which PETA acts upon many issues, but not all. PETA often uses charged, unscientific terms to describe events which are often scientific in nature and persuade non-science oriented people to have opinions which I don't think are based entirely on fact.

For example:
"Ross University is forcing its students -- men and women who will devote their lives to healing animals -- to maim and kill dogs and other animals in unnecessary, painful procedures," says PETA Research Director Kathy Guillermo.

The words "forcing", "maim", "kill", and "painful procedures" are distracting and emotional words which are not descriptive for the actualities. PETA's main mode of action is to appeal to the emotions of the audience which is not always based on reason.

All this being said: Are computer-based models better for learning? I don't think so, but I am also biased and value the experiences I have had to make potential future procedures have a better outcome and likelihood of success. Are the British better students for having education based more on these principles? I don't think so, but certainly they're no worse.

I would absolutely support a persons decision to not partake in such an activity if s/he were opposed. Was this denied in this case?

neilseigel100
02-20-2008, 08:46 AM
"Unnecessary suffering" = performing invasive/terminal procedures on animals when alternatives exist and are in use; and, allowing surgical wounds to become infected without appropriate treatment. All of this is happening at Ross.

Also, at Ross, if students do not want to harm or kill animals, then they automatically are given a failing grade. There are no provisions for alternatives.

Also, regarding the alternatives, numerous studies in the Journal of Veterinary Education clearly show that alternative teaching models that do not involve harming/killing animals prepare students just as well as "normal" teaching methods.

Lastly, PETA's use of the work "kill" and "maim" are correct -- they are just calling it like it is. This is what is going on at Ross. Had they said animals are being "euthanized" and "used for surgical training," they would have seriously been undervaluating what these animals are being forced to go through--and yes, they are being forced against their will.

P.S. -- regarding your comment about animals used for food, I'll simply pose this question: if God had wanted us to eat animals, then why did he endow them with the capacity to feel pain and suffer, and not endow plants with this same capacity? The fact that there is a difference should suggest that they have different moral value, and this is what PETA is commenting on.

sisyphus
02-20-2008, 09:51 PM
"Unnecessary suffering" = performing invasive/terminal procedures on animals when alternatives exist and are in use; and, allowing surgical wounds to become infected without appropriate treatment. All of this is happening at Ross.

Also, at Ross, if students do not want to harm or kill animals, then they automatically are given a failing grade. There are no provisions for alternatives.

Also, regarding the alternatives, numerous studies in the Journal of Veterinary Education clearly show that alternative teaching models that do not involve harming/killing animals prepare students just as well as "normal" teaching methods.

Lastly, PETA's use of the work "kill" and "maim" are correct -- they are just calling it like it is. This is what is going on at Ross. Had they said animals are being "euthanized" and "used for surgical training," they would have seriously been undervaluating what these animals are being forced to go through--and yes, they are being forced against their will.

I will concede the above. Not because I agree with you on terminology, but only because it is becoming obvious that you are a student or former student at Ross and there is information that I am not aware of and can't verify with only yourself and PETA supplying information. If it is as bad as you say, then yes, it is definitely a problem and should be investigated further.


P.S. -- regarding your comment about animals used for food, I'll simply pose this question: if God had wanted us to eat animals, then why did he endow them with the capacity to feel pain and suffer, and not endow plants with this same capacity? The fact that there is a difference should suggest that they have different moral value, and this is what PETA is commenting on.

This, I must respond to. Used here are some common logical fallacies such as special pleading and non sequitur. As a rebuttal using the same types of argument:

1. Why would God place humans in a position of responsibility and husbandry over animals and give us the faculties to do so while actually making them edible and not toxic if handled properly. Surely, God wants us to ingest certain animals because we are able to do so.

2. You cannot prove that plants do not feel pain. Of course it is from a completely different and undiscovered mechanism than that to which we are familiar. Plants absolutely feel pain but, unfortunately, humans will never be able to understand the mechanism. Why else would they move away from noxious stimuli, even if it is very slow. (Russell's teapot).

thebeckychick
02-22-2008, 09:33 AM
neilseigel100, it might be helpful to the forum users if you could (even vaguely) tell us how you are involved in the matter. Are you a current or former Ross student? Someone who otherwise lived on the island of St. Kitts? Have you seen the animals and procedures yourself? I question this because all the "facts" that you list in your previous posts are found in PETA's official complaint to Ross (found here: Take Action: Tell Island Veterinary School to Stop Cutting Up and Killing Animals! (http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/island_veterinary_school)) and sometimes your text matches theirs word for word. I do not question your position on the matter - you have made that quite clear. I question whether you have the personal experience to back up these claims.

For the record, I am a prospective Ross student seeking balanced opinions. Also for the record, I do not trust PETA. Too frequently they "inform" others by catering to people's emotions, as mentioned by sisyphus. It is difficult to sort through their propaganda to find the truth, so I do not use them as a source of information.

grad.student.08
02-22-2008, 10:07 AM
I have a few friends that have attended Ross and it is no different than what goes on at most US Schools. They tell me that Ross is actively pursuing technology that will cut down on terminal surgeries but PETA didn't take any time to ask about this, did they? Shocking. They also forgot to report on Ross students rehabilitating stray and owned animals on St. Kitts as their way of giving back to the community. That's what drives me nuts. For an organization that is supposed to be focused on humane and ethical treatment of animals, it is interesting and convenient to "leave out" all the great things they are doing for animals and animal medicine. Do their reporters also work for the NY Times? :)

Experienced
03-16-2008, 12:38 PM
Here's some new info, which suggests that students who question doing the procedures are being threatened with failure. I suppose that's ok with some of you also?

PETA protests animal cruelty at vet school in St Kitts

BASSETERRE, St Kitts, March 14, 2008 - The world's largest animal rights organisation is protesting against what it claims is cruel teaching procedures being conducted on animals at the Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine in St. Kitts.


People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has called on the American Veterinary Medical Association's (AVMA) to withhold accreditation from the school until it abandons "teaching exercises that harm and kill animals and switches to humane, modern teaching methods, including computer models and clinical training."


AVMA is currently conducting an accreditation process for Ross University which is owned by the Chicago-based education company, DeVry Inc.


PETA made the appeal in letter which it said it sent on Wednesday to Assistant Director for Education and Research Division at AVMA's Center for Veterinary Education Accreditation, Dr Elizabeth Sabin. The call came after the organisation received complaints and photographs from students documenting the mutilation of animals who they claimed were subjected to multiple surgeries before being killed and dissected.


Students who objected to the procedures were reportedly threatened with a failing grade if they did not participate.


"Ross veterinary students are given dogs and donkeys to care for and are forced to perform painful surgeries on them, over and over. Then they are forced to kill the animals," said PETA Research Director Kathy Guillermo.


"Ross must be penalised for forcing students to harm animals in their quest to learn how to help them."


In its correspondence to Dr Sabin, PETA contended that the activity was in violation of St Kitts' Protection of Animals Act.
"Other veterinary schools train their students without resorting to multiple surgeries on animals and euthanizing healthy animals. As the law in St. Kitts forbids causing "unnecessary suffering" to animals, we urge you to investigate this matter and suspend the accreditation process for Ross University if it refuses to discontinue its reportedly abusive and apparently illegal practices," the group wrote to Dr Sabin.


PETA said it has also contacted the director of the Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and other Health Professions, as well as Deputy Prime Minister Sam Condor, asking for the accreditation to be suspended.

Caribbean: News in the Caribbean - Caribbean360.com (http://www.caribbean360.com/News/Caribbean/Stories/2008/03/14/NEWS0000005585.html)

sisyphus
03-16-2008, 04:30 PM
Here's some new info, which suggests that students who question doing the procedures are being threatened with failure. I suppose that's ok with some of you also?

Thanks for the update.

I haven't read back to any of the posts, but where does it say that anyone who posted here is "ok" with what is reportedly happening there?

From your sig, it would seem to suggest that you are NOT a Ross vet student or on St. Kitts, can you offer any proof other than that which is using PETA as a source?

Experienced
03-16-2008, 06:51 PM
Thanks for the update.

I haven't read back to any of the posts, but where does it say that anyone who posted here is "ok" with what is reportedly happening there?

From your sig, it would seem to suggest that you are NOT a Ross vet student or on St. Kitts, can you offer any proof other than that which is using PETA as a source?

LOL, if you haven't read back over any of the posts, then it's not up to me to prove my point, is it?

E.

-

sisyphus
03-16-2008, 07:17 PM
LOL, if you haven't read back over any of the posts, then it's not up to me to prove my point, is it?

no, I still haven't read back over any posts.

Who is it up to to prove your point, then, if not you? Did you or do you go to ross?

My only problem is that I am not willing to let my sole source of information be PETA and disgruntled students? Is this not a problem for you?

I don't approve of malicious killing and the causing of insufferable unnecessary pain in any animal. Or any derivation thereof. Is this really what is happening? I know I don't know for sure and I am pretty sure you don't either.

maximillian genossa
03-17-2008, 07:59 AM
PETA will use any possible excuse to go after ANYONE. Don't get me wrong, I own a cat.

pendeka
03-18-2008, 11:13 PM
Hi everyone,

I am currently a student at Ross University and would like to try and clear up some of the rumors that have recently begun flying about.

First of all, Saint Kitts may be British based, but Ross University's home base is out of the United States and follows US vet school curriculum, etc.

Next, does Ross use live animals as teaching tools? Yes. Does Ross force its students to maim animals and perform painful surgeries in which the animals are suffering needlesly? Absolutely not. While students are required to perform surgeries, the animals are always placed under anesthesia and given the best care possible. If a patient seems to be suffering, direct steps are taken to relieve that suffering. We NEVER leave open wounds to fester and become infected and if that has happened (as claimed by a former or current student) it was a gross oversight by someone in charge. I honestly can't speak on this claimed incident because I was not aware of it and that type of situation is NOT a norm at this school.

I have seen the pictures that were sent to PETA by said student and can say that they are not as horrific as they are being made out to be. They appear bizarre because you must shave a large chunk of hair to keep the surgical sight clean and sanitary. This combined with the stitches (which, as anyone who's had stitches can attest to, look rather frightening on their own) make for a concerning picture for anyone not accustomed to seeing this sort of thing. What PETA neglects to mention is that, aside from the bizarre haircut and stitches, the animals are very clean, healthy looking, in a comfortable environment, and even grazing (an animal that is suffering and in pain won't be interested in food).

I won't argue the fact that there are alternative teaching methods available...in fact, I'd love to see more implemented at Ross. But even though Ross isn't tossing all current methods and adopting all new ones, the staff IS doing its part to reduce the number of animals and cadavers it uses every semester. They just cut the number of canine cadavers used in labs by half, even though the number of students admitted this past semester is one of the largest classes Ross has seen. The cadavers that ARE used are, as stressed by the staff, to be treated with the utmost respect, since they have given their life for medicine. Animals that are euthanized after surgeries are often unadoptable due to particular illnesses and/or unfavorable temperments. Those which students believe CAN be adopted out are able to be "saved" and rehabilitated before being adopted out to good homes.

It pains me to hear the accusations being made against me, my classmates, and my colleagues when we work so hard to give our animals the best care. Please, if you don't have any firsthand knowledge on the subject, don't continue to spread nasty rumors. Find out the facts first, then pass judgement. I welcome any comments and criticism, as well as any questions people may have.

Thank you for your time,
~Pendeka

DEQNY85
05-13-2008, 08:55 PM
It was probably some upset students that failed out and looking for trouble......... they resort to the same childish acts at our Ross Medical campus......just read some of our forums and you can pick them out :bored:

cavalletti
05-14-2008, 01:00 PM
I won't argue the fact that there are alternative teaching methods available...in fact, I'd love to see more implemented at Ross. Ross isn't tossing all current methods and adopting all new ones,
~Pendeka

This is what I would like to see. I don't think Ross would spend the $ unless changes were mandatory.







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