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View Full Version : What do u think the percentage of DCs who think that vaccinations for kids are a bad?



hunteradam07
10-05-2007, 05:23 PM
I recently spoke on a DC who told me that she doesnt believe in childhood vaccination. She told me that she didnt vaccinate her children and educating her patients not to vaccinate as well. Coming from medical point of view, i was "dumb-founded". She claimed that vaccination increase autism incidents in childhood. But i told her according to my Pediatric attending cited the largest study in JAMA has shown that there is no increase incident btw autism and vaccination. What i m concerned about is more than jz that point, i want to know do they plan to raise their children without any type of vaccinated immunities. Do they want to have their children living the bubbles or something? I mean although the incident of polio is very low but there are still some case in India and africa. But what about MMR, chicken pox, H. influenza, hep B, and more. So i jz want to know what do u guys think are the percentage of DCs who prescribe to the same logics? And how can they justify this? Thanks for ur input.

MitchDC
10-05-2007, 06:29 PM
Just a guess - maybe a LOUD 5-10%.

-M


I recently spoke on a DC who told me that she doesnt believe in childhood vaccination. She told me that she didnt vaccinate her children and educating her patients not to vaccinate as well. Coming from medical point of view, i was "dumb-founded". She claimed that vaccination increase autism incidents in childhood. But i told her according to my Pediatric attending cited the largest study in JAMA has shown that there is no increase incident btw autism and vaccination. What i m concerned about is more than jz that point, i want to know do they plan to raise their children without any type of vaccinated immunities. Do they want to have their children living the bubbles or something? I mean although the incident of polio is very low but there are still some case in India and africa. But what about MMR, chicken pox, H. influenza, hep B, and more. So i jz want to know what do u guys think are the percentage of DCs who prescribe to the same logics? And how can they justify this? Thanks for ur input.

wcb22
10-05-2007, 11:20 PM
actually there may be with certain vaccines containing the compound thimerosol. it's a mercury containing preservative - and the comparison of symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning are extensive and startling. most all vaccines no longer have this compound in them anymore, but i believe the live flu vaccine still does, and maybe pneumoccocus, but i'm not sure. my child is getting her 4 mo old vaccines on monday, and you'd better believe i'm going to make sure thimerosol is not contained in them.

the CDC is currently conducting a 5 billion dollar study to find out what in the world is causing this epidemic. we just don't know. but the incidence at the current time is 1:94 males, and 1:350 or so for females. 20 years ago it was somewhere around 1:5000. 10 years ago 1:1000, you get the picture. it's increasing at an alarming rate.

nl9569
10-06-2007, 01:01 AM
I think that not giving a child crucial vaccinations is jumping the gun in a very very big way. The CDC has reviewed studies by several independent groups and the National Academy of Sciences, Institute of medicine and they show no epidemiological evidence of a causal relationship between the MMR vacc and autism. The studies that this is based on apparently often contain flaws or are misinterpreted. Information many proponents cite from the California Department of Developmental studies shows how the number of autism cases has increased in tandem with the number of MMR vacc's given. It fails to take into account the rise in population over the years and express the percentage however. This would be like saying how dramatic the price of a loaf of bread has gone up from 1975 to 2006 but failing to take into account inflation over the years.
Moreover, Autism is a psychological disorder with HIGHLY variable degrees of severity, and often multifactorial etiology. There is always the chance that more cases are being diagnosed through changing interpretations of what it means to be mildly autistic (some autistic people function very normally with only slight social signs) Certainly the age at which autism is diagnosed is younger than ever before. There are myriad of environmental factors such as wheat gluten in formula, the rate of single parenting, etc. etc. That could also contribute to developmental stagnation or regression at this time in a childs life. This is not to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE that some component of vaccines yet undiscovered may contribute to autism. There is simply not enough credible evidence to back this up. Saying that the symptoms seem to appear around the same time that vaccines are given is just not enough to say that vaccines are the cause. Social, physical, and mental development at this age is in a fragile state of flux and influenced by many things.

The result of not vaccinating a child could lead to serious illness or death. The reason Polio, measles, rubella, and rubeola are no longer serious health concerns in the U.S. is due to sanitation and more importantly vaccinations. At this time, parents choosing not to vaccinate their children may benefit from so called "herd immunity," that is, if most of the other children that the unvaccinated child is near are themselves vaccinated then it may break the chain of transmission and prevent the unvaccinated child from getting the disease. The rub is that the more that people choose to not vaccinate their children the more this group immunity breaks down and the more you would see group outbreaks and perhaps epidemics in certain areas. I would never in a million years forgo essential vaccs like MMR or Polio for fear that my child would develop autism, not even if I had a child who was autistic who had recieved vaccs and was deciding for my next one.

eastern2western
10-06-2007, 01:06 AM
I recently spoke on a DC who told me that she doesnt believe in childhood vaccination. She told me that she didnt vaccinate her children and educating her patients not to vaccinate as well. Coming from medical point of view, i was "dumb-founded". She claimed that vaccination increase autism incidents in childhood. But i told her according to my Pediatric attending cited the largest study in JAMA has shown that there is no increase incident btw autism and vaccination. What i m concerned about is more than jz that point, i want to know do they plan to raise their children without any type of vaccinated immunities. Do they want to have their children living the bubbles or something? I mean although the incident of polio is very low but there are still some case in India and africa. But what about MMR, chicken pox, H. influenza, hep B, and more. So i jz want to know what do u guys think are the percentage of DCs who prescribe to the same logics? And how can they justify this? Thanks for ur input.
1) First thing is they can not even agree among themselves about the fundamental theories of what chiropractic should be.
2) They do have a lot of experience with treating soft tissue injuries, but most of them do not have a serious medical training like mds.

wcb22
10-06-2007, 07:17 AM
I think that not giving a child crucial vaccinations is jumping the gun in a very very big way. The CDC has reviewed studies by several independent groups and the National Academy of Sciences, Institute of medicine and they show no epidemiological evidence of a causal relationship between the MMR vacc and autism. The studies that this is based on apparently often contain flaws or are misinterpreted. Information many proponents cite from the California Department of Developmental studies shows how the number of autism cases has increased in tandem with the number of MMR vacc's given. It fails to take into account the rise in population over the years and express the percentage however. This would be like saying how dramatic the price of a loaf of bread has gone up from 1975 to 2006 but failing to take into account inflation over the years.
Moreover, Autism is a psychological disorder with HIGHLY variable degrees of severity, and often multifactorial etiology. There is always the chance that more cases are being diagnosed through changing interpretations of what it means to be mildly autistic (some autistic people function very normally with only slight social signs) Certainly the age at which autism is diagnosed is younger than ever before. There are myriad of environmental factors such as wheat gluten in formula, the rate of single parenting, etc. etc. That could also contribute to developmental stagnation or regression at this time in a childs life. This is not to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE that some component of vaccines yet undiscovered may contribute to autism. There is simply not enough credible evidence to back this up. Saying that the symptoms seem to appear around the same time that vaccines are given is just not enough to say that vaccines are the cause. Social, physical, and mental development at this age is in a fragile state of flux and influenced by many things.

The result of not vaccinating a child could lead to serious illness or death. The reason Polio, measles, rubella, and rubeola are no longer serious health concerns in the U.S. is due to sanitation and more importantly vaccinations. At this time, parents choosing not to vaccinate their children may benefit from so called "herd immunity," that is, if most of the other children that the unvaccinated child is near are themselves vaccinated then it may break the chain of transmission and prevent the unvaccinated child from getting the disease. The rub is that the more that people choose to not vaccinate their children the more this group immunity breaks down and the more you would see group outbreaks and perhaps epidemics in certain areas. I would never in a million years forgo essential vaccs like MMR or Polio for fear that my child would develop autism, not even if I had a child who was autistic who had recieved vaccs and was deciding for my next one.

very good points, i totally agree. i'm just saying as a new father of a 4 month old girl, i'm making sure the vaccines she gets are thimerosol free. herd immunity will break down with unwarrented fears about vaccination. that could make the situation worse.

AUCMD2006
10-06-2007, 08:15 AM
actually there may be with certain vaccines containing the compound thimerosol. it's a mercury containing preservative - and the comparison of symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning are extensive and startling. most all vaccines no longer have this compound in them anymore, but i believe the live flu vaccine still does, and maybe pneumoccocus, but i'm not sure. my child is getting her 4 mo old vaccines on monday, and you'd better believe i'm going to make sure thimerosol is not contained in them.

the CDC is currently conducting a 5 billion dollar study to find out what in the world is causing this epidemic. we just don't know. but the incidence at the current time is 1:94 males, and 1:350 or so for females. 20 years ago it was somewhere around 1:5000. 10 years ago 1:1000, you get the picture. it's increasing at an alarming rate.

statistics are pure ** more so when you try and compare things over a time span. the key to this is diagnosis. we are diagnosing this alot more and more physicians are able to recognize this when 20-40 years ago
the diagnosis may have been mental retardation, or borderline functioning. so unless we can go back in time and see these patients and use current diagnosis criteria i don't beleive these statistics with an "epidemic" of autism anymore than the "epidemic" of depresion, adhd, etc its all about better diagnosis..some may say more "liberal" diagnosis criteria but diagnosis is the key to the perceived "epidemic" status of most things now days.

and many symptoms mimic each other.. so what thermasol has mercury in it and mercury poisoning has symptoms similar to autism..what level of mercury is needed to be considered toxic and present with those symptoms? what level is in one vaccine? this is the same as saying a bad case of gastritis has the some of the same symptoms as a surgical belly so all gastritis is a surgical belly and everyone with gastritis needs an open laparotomy or that some of the symptoms of a headache are the same as a ruptured anneurysm so everyone with a headache needs a burr hole.

all this is more likely just a factor of the 'american' mode of thinking that if anything at anytime is wrong it has absolutely to be someones fault.

i will use breast cancer as another example. the rates of breast cancer increased from 500,000 to over 1.1 million worldwide from 1972 to 2002...now do women get more breast cancer now or is it a factor or massive public education campaigns, self breast exams, digital mammograms, ultra sound, better biopsy diagnosis? how about the increasing age? how many cases of breast cancer were there in the 1700's when life expectancy was much lower? i expect the rates of breast cancer to rise more as mri increases in use

hunteradam07
10-07-2007, 02:54 PM
That is why i want to ask the all the DCs outthere to take an absolute stand-unify stand-against this type of "quackerism" thinking. And it's not a philosphical debate anymore when u are using misinformation to teach you pts to not vaccinate their children. Please please please to read up more on independent, double-blind, and gold strandard research instead something someone said at a weekend seminar or a hand out. Your are not hurting the creditiblity of your profession, but you are endangered your own children and the next generation of american children. PLease please think twice and thrice.

drjohnwebb
10-07-2007, 03:44 PM
Well... most of the people I went to chiro school with did NOT vaccinate their children. I hate to say it, but they are some of the healthiest children I have ever seen and NONE of them have ever had any major illnesses.

However, I do not believe chiropractors should be sharing their personal beliefs with patients. If a chiro tells someone not to get a vaccine, stop taking their meds, etc.. that is practicing medicine without a license. Chiropractors are fed a lot of that crap in school.

Now, to add... chiropractors do get a good education in sciences. Their subluxation model has not been scientifically validated, but the spinal manipulations that are performed have shown significant results. The results are not always repeatable and vary from patient to patient. One poster was correct, they do not get the level, depth and length of education medicine receives.

In my 6 years of practicing chiropractic, I have to say that I helped many, many people. Chiropractic does work. Anyone on here that is becoming a MD, let me tell you.. as a level headed, scientific medical student myself, chiropractic care does work, to an extent. People love their chiropractors and the worse thing you can ever do is tell them not to go. If I had a dollar for every patient a MD lost because he bad-mouthed chiropractic, I'd move next door to Bill Gates.

Remember, medicine is not a cure all or end all to all problems. As physicians you have to be open minded to other treatments that you may not understand. Chiropractors don't like medications, but it is because they lack the knowledge how they help. Likewise, MD don't understand what chiropractors do, they only assume they know. I have made friends with MDs, some of who would send me patients for headaches and backaches. When we where alone they would ask me "what is it that you actually do in your office?" They had NO clue.

In fact, I had an orthopedic surgeon that I heard give a talk at a school on scoliosis to parents. He said that spinal manipulation did NOT help scoliosis. His pamplets he handed out even condemed the use of spinal manipulation for scoliosis. I laughed at what he was saying because I had patients every week that would come in to me, because he had been doing spinal manipulation on them, for scoliosis. He would kick them out of his practice when their insurance would max out. But, he was doing the one therapy that he said didn't work.. 3 times a week.

It is also funny when MDs say that the therapies chiropractors do, don't work. So, the chiropractors said fine.. then let's take spinal manipulation out of your practice act, so you can't do it.. They spent millions of dollars fighting it, so they could keep the right to do a treatment, that they say doesn't work. ODD..

Point is... chiros need to watch themselves. They think MD are against them and if it is true, it is because of dumb things they do. Chiropractors are their own worst enemies and they will be the downfall of their own profession.

AUCMD2006
10-07-2007, 04:54 PM
[quote=drjohnwebb;682567]Well... most of the people I went to chiro school with did NOT vaccinate their children. I hate to say it, but they are some of the healthiest children I have ever seen and NONE of them have ever had any major illnesses. [quote]

reaping the benefits of herd immunity...tell you waht, i'l take my kids, their kids for a scenic tour of rural india and see who comes back. you know reason for health in the industriualized world is sanitation and immunization programs

i agree with the rest of what you said. i would have no problem referring my patients to a chiro however i will make sure that the chiro trained at a school that teaches science based curricula which unfortunately is not all the schools. my friend still insists on going to life.. he has been sold on their curricula and treatment philosophy

there are a few quacks in every field. mine right now are militant midwives that beleive every birth should be a home birth and love to quote statistics of problems in hospitals or the minute number of problems with labor inductions or our 20% c section rate but never quote numbers before hospital birthing and fetal monitoring when every birth was ahome birth.

hunteradam07
10-09-2007, 06:49 PM
What crazy to me is the way chiros jumping on new crazy techniques or bandwagons to justify their treatment. I recently saw a chiropractic seminar at a hotel where there are booths and dcs selling thing like Surface EMG, lazer cold treatments, and sublingual vitamins techniques. One guy was trying to correlate Surface EMG to spinal subluxations and claiming it's better than Xray to diagnosis subluxation. I didnt know subluxation causing EMG reading abnormalities, i wonder is there any independent research for this. The bottomline is instead using proven technique like manipulation and rehab exercise to treat their patients, DCs go for the first "shinny" theory or gadget to try recuit more pts even most if not all sound so ridiculous. And that is the same thing with vaccine issues. How can you guys think this will help mainstream DCs in general? OMG.

drjohnwebb
10-10-2007, 05:07 PM
What crazy to me is the way chiros jumping on new crazy techniques or bandwagons to justify their treatment. I recently saw a chiropractic seminar at a hotel where there are booths and dcs selling thing like Surface EMG, lazer cold treatments, and sublingual vitamins techniques. One guy was trying to correlate Surface EMG to spinal subluxations and claiming it's better than Xray to diagnosis subluxation. I didnt know subluxation causing EMG reading abnormalities, i wonder is there any independent research for this. The bottomline is instead using proven technique like manipulation and rehab exercise to treat their patients, DCs go for the first "shinny" theory or gadget to try recuit more pts even most if not all sound so ridiculous. And that is the same thing with vaccine issues. How can you guys think this will help mainstream DCs in general? OMG.

Surface EMG would change is a vertebra is putting pressure on a spinal nerve, would you agree? There is actually a lot of research in that area, believe it or not. The other stuff... chiros will jump on anything they think will make them a quick buck. Actually, chiro's shouldn't even be doing rehab, but you can only "adjust" someone so many times without addressing the muscular component of it. "Straight" chiros don't address anything but the subluxation itself, not vitamins, no posture advise, no therapies, nothing but the adjustment itself, to re-align the joints and let the body heal itself. They don't even care if you have a problem and they don't care if it goes away.. they are simply there to locat, analyze and correct your misaligments and let the body do whatever it wants to do.

I think medicine should employ former chiros, turned MDs.. to teach "the chiro way" to either PMR docs or have a PMR subspecialty (also open to IM and FM). This would eventually put chiros out and people would have their trusted, scientific MD to go to for their "adjustments".

hunteradam07
10-11-2007, 01:25 AM
No i dont agree with that, because if you are talking about nerve compression would have a different signs and symptomps. What i mean is if u want to say nerve compression like in case of disc hernia compressing a nerve, you would have sharp radiate dermatomal pain and muscles weakness. While trigger points and muscle pain that chiros seems to have dull aching pain and no muscles weakness at all. So how can surface EMG dectect that? Furthermore, i observed how some demo at the seminar booth, it totally depend on the pressure and the person doing it. I seems like if you put more pressure on the pads, the reading is definely increase. So that doesnt seem very reliable and scientific to me. As some of the people here bring up the fact that something called subluxation theory is not even scientific proven or even close to it. So how do u use sEMG to determine something that u guys have no idea what it's? Jz a simple question. Bt maybe i dont know because i m not a DC.

drjohnwebb
10-12-2007, 09:03 AM
No i dont agree with that, because if you are talking about nerve compression would have a different signs and symptomps. What i mean is if u want to say nerve compression like in case of disc hernia compressing a nerve, you would have sharp radiate dermatomal pain and muscles weakness. While trigger points and muscle pain that chiros seems to have dull aching pain and no muscles weakness at all. So how can surface EMG dectect that?
If you read current research, you would see that 100mmhg, about the weight of a dime can reduce nerve function for up to 60%. This could affect nerve function without showing physical symptoms.
Furthermore, i observed how some demo at the seminar booth, it totally depend on the pressure and the person doing it. I seems like if you put more pressure on the pads, the reading is definely increase. So that doesnt seem very reliable and scientific to me.
Aren't a lot test user dependent in medicine as well? Isn't this why we have people who are trained to only do one type of diagnostic testing.
As some of the people here bring up the fact that something called subluxation theory is not even scientific proven or even close to it. So how do u use sEMG to determine something that u guys have no idea what it's? Jz a simple question. Bt maybe i dont know because i m not a DC.
I am not trying to put you down, but I would like to know, are you in medical school and if you are, how far along are you? You don't sound like you understand the dynamics of physical symptons, neuroscience or diagnostic testing.
As far as scientifically proven, as medical physicians, there are many things that we treat based on theory. In fact, most of what we do is in theory.. and the treatment outcome seems to confirm the theory. Chiro is the same. Chiropractors treat millions of people everyday, they are defined as physicians under Federal guidelines, have insurance billing rights, etc.. There is more than just hocus pocus to it. If it is all just smoke and mirrors... chiropractors would have pulled off the greatest deceptive feat ever, for over 100 years. Trust me... they aren't that smart.

To let you know.. I am not a chiropractic defender. However, I am sure your ignorance of the profession causes you to not understand concepts and practicing in that profession. I am just trying to give you the facts so you can understand both sides of an issue before automatically jumping to conclusions and making judgements. However, some people will always let their ignorance prevail and never attempt to understand something they do not understand and use their limited mental abilities to express negative comments about the things they do not comprehend.

hunteradam07
10-13-2007, 02:42 PM
So what are u saying? Subluxation causing the symptomps of trigger point and that can be dectect by sEMG? I m sure would like to see the research on that if you can provide to me. Thanks. What i m trying to say is the two conditions are total different in term of neurological using S/Sx to make diagnosis. Nerver root compression-disc hernia- will have radiating pain at the dermatomal pattern while trigger points are not nerve root compression type of injuries which are claimed by the sEMG machine to dectect. As much as u say about independent analysis, i dont see any MDs out there telling their patients they ve amenia when CBC and other proven lab results saying otherwise. And about the 60% reduce in nerve function with dime size pressure, if it's not produce any S/Sx or functional abnormality, then how clinically relevent is that. Just like if i m not breath at my Vital capacity every single moment in life doesnt mean that i will be in hypoxia state. Is that why DCs known for treatment without any clinical findings? Or what they call "maintain care"? And as for being professional, you typically go for the personal attack as soon as anyone wants an open honest debate, you should be thankful that MDs or futurre MDs like me would have this conversation with DCs. I m trying to have a better understand of your profession yet like most DCs all u do is personalize the matter. Thanks for showing the world how open mind and civil DCs are! Congratulation.

drjohnwebb
10-13-2007, 11:06 PM
I was just clearly pointing out that you were using ignorant medical jargon in your argument. I don't think you are in medical school and I don't think you are very well educated on the matters you speak of. My profession is medicine, my old profession was chiropractic. Maybe you should do your homework and learn about SEMG, trigger points and radicular pain. I think one you get out of your undergrad anatomy course and learn in depth about these areas, you will have a better understanding. I can't explain physics, biochemistry, neuroscience and diagnostic testing to someone who doesn't understand the basics of these areas.

Sorry..

hunteradam07
10-14-2007, 12:01 AM
whoa once again typical chiros instead addressing the point of the issue, you use personal attack to make your points. How come i m not suprise! I would love to see the double blind research on sEMG and diagnosis neuromuscular conditions especially using it as diagnostic. Oh, since medicine is your bussiness now, do u know any hospital using that particular sEMG to diagnosis anything DC. Webb? So dont worry about me worry about your others chiros using sEMG and breaching against vaccinations. Good luck

teratos
10-14-2007, 07:57 AM
I have yet to see a study that points to vaccines causing autism. Most kids who go without vaccines will be healthy, yes, because of the fantastic job this country does in sanitation. Everyone gets clean drinking water etc. Most cases of measles, mumps, polio, end without much, if any, long term sequelae. Same with the flu and pneumonia. Of course, people can have big time problems with these diseases. SSPE from measles, sterility etc. from mumps. Paralysis from polio. Death from flu and pneumonia. If just a few people in a society choose not to vaccinate their children, it isn't such a big deal. They are partially protected by the fact that everyone around them has been vaccinated. Since these things are often spread via droplets, if nobody around them has it, they won't get it. Problems will arise as more an more people see "medical" folks like chiros not vaccinating their children, see that those kids are "among the healthiest they have seen", and non-vaccination becomes widespread. Only then will vaccination be appreciated.

drjohnwebb
10-14-2007, 09:46 AM
whoa once again typical chiros instead addressing the point of the issue, you use personal attack to make your points. How come i m not suprise! I would love to see the double blind research on sEMG and diagnosis neuromuscular conditions especially using it as diagnostic. Oh, since medicine is your bussiness now, do u know any hospital using that particular sEMG to diagnosis anything DC. Webb? So dont worry about me worry about your others chiros using sEMG and breaching against vaccinations. Good luck

Clearly you are still in undergrad and you don't understand what you are talking about. I am not going to waste my time explaining anything to someone who won't comprehend.

But yes.. Neurologist all over the coutry are using sEMG as a non-invasive diagnostic tool. Needle EMG test one muscle fiber, whereas sEMG can test more muscle fibrils or a majority of a muscle. As I am sure you are aware of, this is the same type of electrical signal a ECG picks up from the heart. Oh my God... we use SURFACE electrical impulses to diagnose a muscular condition?? OH NO.....
I will link you some neurology sites so you can study up..
www.aan.com/professionals/practice/pdfs/gl0095.pdf (http://www.aan.com/professionals/practice/pdfs/gl0095.pdf)
www.neurology.org/cgi/content/full/56/10/1421?ck=nck (http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/full/56/10/1421?ck=nck)
(this one talks about how they have shown in studies that sEMG is as effective as nEMG)
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies (http://doi.wiley.com/10.1002/0471678384.ch12)
(this site tells you about a new book, 2004, by a well known neurologist on uses of sEMG in neurology diagnosis)
Now as far as chiros dxing trigger points with EMG, I don't think that is valid. NO one really knows what causes trigger point. I do know that needle EMG has not found any voluntary muscle spasm at the NM JXN. They are now believed to be a result of a malfunction of the Muscle Spindle (intrafusal Gamma controled fibers) and not extrafusal Alpha's. This is interesting to me, since both fibers are located in the anterior horn and both exit through ventral efferent roots.

I think sEMG can help detect something is going on in the muscles, which may help detect dorsal nerve root pressure. Since you can't really check anterior branch function, checking muscle activity, or the post branch could show nerve disfunction. This nerve disfunction could be from nerve root compression, scar tissue formation or any type of disturbance to the axon or NM JXN itself.

The subluxation theory is interesting. Kinetic studies have shown that the average person's spine makes around 75,000 motions in a day. Due to our posture, sleep habits, stress, etc.. muscles of the back could hold one of the vertebrae slightly out of it's normal position. In most IVFs, there is very little "spare" room for the nerve root. If this misalignment is enough to case pressure on the tissues around the nerve root, it could cause compression. This compression may or may not induce pain, depending on the type of fibers being pressed and the extent of their compression. As I am sure you know, there are not many pain fibers along the spine itself (kind of like the heart) and these spinal nerves are not all sensitive to pain. Also, if the pain signal affects large fibers and Lamina IV and II, the pain could be shut off throught the pain gate mechanism. Like anyother tissue, prostaglandins and other inflammatory processes will begin in the nerve fiber. They nerve's Na/K pump is through off and as NA can't be pumped out of the axon's cells, it does like other tissues and swells. This swelling now exacerbates the problem and eventually, pain or muscle disfunction could ensue. From this process, the nerve action potential would be affected and possible pressure ischemia on myelin and/or nodes of Ranvier would be seen. These changed would be seen on sEMG.

Now, can chiropractic treatment actually fix this problem? I think in a majority of cases, they can. This treatment has been shown to be effective and this is evident by DO's continuing to perform it, MDs getting more interested in learning it and orthopedist and physiatrists also performing spinal manipulation. Other therapeutic treatments performed by chiropractors also help in ameliorate the pain and inflammation, therefore speeding up recovery.

Back to sEMG. I don't think chiro's need it. It is only a gadget to show the patient that something is or was there.. and after treatment it is gone. This does happen and is shown in pre/post sEMGs. Besides that, chiro's don't really use it, for the most part, as a diagnostic tool.

I hope I have answered your questions. If you have more, I would be more than happy to try to explain neurology, physiology, anatomy, histology and more with you again. I have plenty of time between doing my current research study (hybaric medicine and it's affect on brain stem/spinal cord injury), my medical school classes, my MBA classes and raising a family.
So, feel free to ask.

hunteradam07
10-14-2007, 06:12 PM
U know there is a saying:"All the education in world yet not any ounce of refinement!" Maybe DC. Webb can mix in some class during those degree u claim to do. Well i guess it's jz to much to ask from someone like u. So good luck with ur reseach, i look forward for it to be published. Stick and stone, DC. Webb!

drjohnwebb
10-14-2007, 08:11 PM
U know there is a saying:"All the education in world yet not any ounce of refinement!" Maybe DC. Webb can mix in some class during those degree u claim to do. Well i guess it's jz to much to ask from someone like u. So good luck with ur reseach, i look forward for it to be published. Stick and stone, DC. Webb!

Wow.. I answered your question and you still insult me. There is another saying.. that reminds me of you... it is from Albert Einstein ( you may hear about him when you take college physics)
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe".

Maybe next time, you should bark up a smaller dog's tree. Good luck in college kid.

DOC.p
10-14-2007, 08:24 PM
Wow.. I answered your question and you still insult me. There is another saying.. that reminds me of you... it is from Albert Einstein ( you may hear about him when you take college physics)
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe".

Maybe next time, you should bark up a smaller dog's tree. Good luck in college kid.
a little off topic but i'd just like to throw in my respect to the chiropractic branch of medicine. some years back, i was playing junior hockey in ontario and and being a goalie, i'm was always putting a lot of stress on my spine whether it was just in a normal stance or in the variety of movements us goaltenders do. i frequently saw a chiropractor for adjustments and other exercises i could do to strengthen the muscles of my back. i really don't think i could have been as successful with a normal physician as i did with my chiropractor.

drjohnwebb
10-14-2007, 08:36 PM
I can also say that I have many classmates that have never been to a chiropractor. However, with sitting in desks all day and being stressed out, I have started adjusting some of them for various issues (and another chiro in my class) and all of them are "amazed". There are lots of alternative therapies out there that work. Yet, most in medicine dismiss them because if it wasn't taught in medical school, it can't be valid. People should be aware that health care is moving more alternative and many people every year are starting to investigate other healing arts. When you step out of the school arena and into the real world of healthcare, you will see this.

Medicine is really trying to cash in on things they dismissed 10 years ago. Since these things are becoming "main stream", they want to be a part of it now. Also, they assert that they should be the ones administering these treatments, since they are MD.. and scientific. Even just 10 short years ago, a lot of MDs told patients NOT to take vitamins... now most regularly recommend them. I think alternative healthcare should be a required class at medical school, to expose future physicians to other alternative treatments that their patients may be receiving.

rosethorn_14
10-15-2007, 11:36 PM
a little off topic but i'd just like to throw in my respect to the chiropractic branch of medicine. some years back, i was playing junior hockey in ontario and and being a goalie, i'm was always putting a lot of stress on my spine whether it was just in a normal stance or in the variety of movements us goaltenders do. i frequently saw a chiropractor for adjustments and other exercises i could do to strengthen the muscles of my back. i really don't think i could have been as successful with a normal physician as i did with my chiropractor.

Chiropractors don't get enough credit. I don't know what the actual term for the problem is, but I just nicknamed it cement block wrists and neck. My wrists/neck crackle and pop whenever I have to rotate them or do strenous activities for long periods with them and if I didn't go to the chiropractor once every two weeks, I would be in so much pain.

I wouldn't also be able to play the viola or write or type.

vwxy759
07-31-2010, 08:55 PM
这是新加的空白文章13,可以在ubb可视化编辑器中,添加和修改文章内容。

johnnyb
08-15-2010, 04:18 PM
As a chiro student I can give some good advice. I go to national, and we are 2 miles north of Midwestern University (osteopathic school). I live in a building with students from both universities and I can say that our medical science curriculum is at par with or surpasses that of DO's.

I go to school with students who transfed from Palmer, and Life because the eduation they got was poor (those schools are the bottom preformers on part 1 boards). Its not about holistic or physical therapy, its about teaching evidence based medicine and philophy based. Dont go to a philophy based school (Palmer, Life, Sherman) you will be brain washed, and hate going to class!!!!!!!!

Go to a school that will teach you how to be a clinician not an adjustor. A good school will teach pharmacology. a few good schools

NUHS
TCC
D'Youville
SCUHS
UB

CARICOM-MED
08-15-2010, 08:44 PM
I agree with the DC colleges/universities.....

NUHS, SCUHS, NorthWestern U & Bridgeport U:

http://www.nuhs.edu/ (http://www.nuhs.edu/)
https://www.bridgeport.edu/pages/1.asp
Northwestern Health Sciences University | Chiropractic College | Acupuncture School | Massage School" (http://www.nwhealth.edu/)
Southern California University of Health Sciences - Chiropractic & Acupuncture College (http://www.scuhs.edu/)
are ALL great examples of EBM, they are integrated in a University model, that teach not just chiropractic/manual medicine, but public health, and intense science courses....in addition to integrative approach to health care...

From what I've heard & read, NUHS and Bridgeport are the TOP schools to consider....

We had a NUHS, DC in our med program, that knew his basic sciences inside out, and was working as a TA in several Medical schools in Chicago before pursuing a career in medicine.

rabbitgti20
08-20-2010, 08:02 AM
I'm a chiro and I'm not against childhood vaccinations...but I agree with the "modified schedule"...which spread out and leave more time in between vaccinations.

Forsaken38
09-24-2010, 05:01 AM
I agree with a few of the previous posts. I am a starting Chiro student, and I agree with the modified schedule for vacinations. Also Herd immunity has been proven, yet the side effects of certain vaccines have not been. I also wonder if there is any correlation btw the Vaccines and Autoimmune disease. AI is found mostly only in parts of the world where western medicine is practiced. Is there any evidence to prove or debunk this theory? Any body out there that have any facts or data on this? It would be interesting if there was a link btw the two.

AgActual
09-25-2010, 01:24 PM
I can say that our medical science curriculum is at par with or surpasses that of DO's

:?

I doubt that.

longchode
11-06-2010, 09:35 PM
:?

I doubt that.
lol, I would not doubt that you doubt that.

CARICOM-MED
11-07-2010, 04:59 PM
Some schools are on par, I would also argue that I've visited some DC campuses that are science based, such as NUHS, New York (NYCC) and Western States, not only they are on par, in many cases they are better....AND are certainly better than most and even the top Caribbean schools.

Most DC campuses have state of the art equipment, and top notch DDX labs, and anatomy-bioechem labs....wish someone can post some photos :)
However, the Mixed DCs get nailed because they are piled together with the Straights-subluxation based.....And their colleges are not par with any of the above DO-MD or Mixed DCs colleges.


lol, I would not doubt that you doubt that.

safaribiker
01-27-2011, 12:04 PM
I do not believe in vaccinations..

safaribiker
01-27-2011, 12:05 PM
can anyone tell me why we give Hep B vaccinations to infants?

safaribiker
01-27-2011, 12:06 PM
do you think that your child will be sexually active or be a drug addict before going to school?

safaribiker
01-27-2011, 12:07 PM
& yes: Vaccines Cause Autism ..

safaribiker
01-27-2011, 12:08 PM
some people will say it is only better diagnosis..

hey, come one..

Autism is a clinical diagnosis..

safaribiker
01-27-2011, 12:10 PM
& there is no safe dose of mercury..

human body is not designed to deal with mercury..







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