PDA

View Full Version : Transfers



empathy
01-26-2007, 03:12 PM
Now that things are settling down can students transfer back to St. Chris? If they are allowed or encouraged to do so what are their chances of getting licensed in the US? No negative digs against the school please.

Azrealist
01-26-2007, 08:41 PM
yeah students are allowed to transfer back... and a few of them that went to MUAB have... the rest haven't

are they being encouraged to? i don't think so...

even i don't encourage this yet... there are still a few steps that need to be done before anyone will really encourage people to come back or start... most importantly loan companys, and UK approval (both are being worked on and hopefully sooner rather than later will happen)

licensure in the US... same as it was before... yes in some states.. no in others... people should research this on their own

i know that the really problem states... namely oregon are currently on the top of list of priorities... I personally have tried talking with Alvin Contreras from oregon but the man doesn't appear to like any facts that are given to him. He asks for one thing, when its given to him he changes his mind and says that organization xyz is not reliable... and says get this other one... when thats received and shown to him.. he changes his mind and say that is no good try this one... its a big circle of nonsense with no logical direction at all... the state makes no sense at all and when facts are shown to him he denies them or says they're not valid...

I do know that legal council for the school is going to try and figure out what to do with oregon and how to approach it.. because it along with everyone involved there are becoming like an inflamed hemorrhoid

empathy
01-26-2007, 09:37 PM
you guys will win over Oregon one day. You are doing all the right things. Just look at how far you've come in such a short amount of time. Last year in January things were a complete mess and now you have a peaceful campus. The change in attitude is really amazing too. Use to St. Chris admin would say anything to get students to attend. They claimed to be 'good to go in fifty states', etc. Now, here you are being completely honest with students and telling them that it's not the best idea for them to come back now. You are putting their interests first. That's beyond cool. If, you keep moving in the direction you are going one day you will be 'good to go in fifty states'. Laws can be changed but not by lies and fake credentials....only by hard work and honesty. You have a really good handle on that which is neat to see. Very refreshing.

Azrealist
01-27-2007, 08:45 AM
i'd love to say that admin would say the same thing as i do...

but it still is a buisness and they want to encourage as many people to come because they need money to continue to run the business.

i just tell people honestly when they ask me... and i've had several people e-mail me...

i tell them what we can offer... and what we can't... if they come in knowing all the facts then i can live with that... if they don't come because of something that we don't have... no one will blame them...

empathy
01-27-2007, 09:34 AM
but hopefully they'll just be honest with folks like you are being. There's nothing worse than paying for something and not getting what you paid for. Lies are very bad for business. An unhappy customer can cost you thousands. Just look at all the legal fees the old administrators have had to pay. I bet they are wishing they had done things differently now. Opening a campus in England was an excellent idea and they could have made an extremely good honest living over there. Built a real name for themselves and a future for their families. You know people who have seen them in court. Do they seem like the experience has changed them in any way for the better? Maybe they learned their lesson and they'll do things differently next time. No one is perfect -- we all make mistakes.

maximillian genossa
01-27-2007, 04:43 PM
UK aproval will take a change in GMC policy. They are very adamant of not allowing poeple from schools chartered elsewhere with a campus in UK soil attending the UK campus to sit for the PLAB. Good luck on that one. Because they will have to change it for a few other players as well, not just SC.

Actually, if my memory is not at fault, it was the same St. Chris scandal of last year what moved the GMC to establish this policy. Again, if my memory is not at fault.

Max





yeah students are allowed to transfer back... and a few of them that went to MUAB have... the rest haven't

are they being encouraged to? i don't think so...

even i don't encourage this yet... there are still a few steps that need to be done before anyone will really encourage people to come back or start... most importantly loan companys, and UK approval (both are being worked on and hopefully sooner rather than later will happen)

licensure in the US... same as it was before... yes in some states.. no in others... people should research this on their own

i know that the really problem states... namely oregon are currently on the top of list of priorities... I personally have tried talking with Alvin Contreras from oregon but the man doesn't appear to like any facts that are given to him. He asks for one thing, when its given to him he changes his mind and says that organization xyz is not reliable... and says get this other one... when thats received and shown to him.. he changes his mind and say that is no good try this one... its a big circle of nonsense with no logical direction at all... the state makes no sense at all and when facts are shown to him he denies them or says they're not valid...

I do know that legal council for the school is going to try and figure out what to do with oregon and how to approach it.. because it along with everyone involved there are becoming like an inflamed hemorrhoid

Azrealist
01-27-2007, 08:45 PM
no you're right.. it was bc of SC that the policy changed... and i don't think it will be an easy process by any means to have thing accepted again....

This is actually an argument i've had with many people (our students included)... The way the GMC rules are set up now most carrib school wouldn't qualify either to sit for the plab (i've actually asked)... the GMC requires that the majority of study takes place in the country of charter... and most carrib school do less than 50% of their study on the island.. with either 5th semester in the US somewhere and all of clinicals elsewhere making the time on the island well less than 50%... but thats not here nor there because i'm willing to say 99.99% of the people who go to these schools don't want to go to the UK to practice anyway... so its a moot point.

The key issue in my mind is this... as long as the school is "eligible" to write the plab if xyz criteria are met... thats good enough..

for example... is SCIMD or any school offered a program or track that would make the majority of study in the country of charter then they'd be fine... that way if you wanted to write the plab then you would need to do xyz path with this much time in your country (and island) of charter in order to be eligible...

weither you do this path or not is up to you... but you would have the option of being eligible if you decided to take it...

This rule would apply universally to everyone.. not that you ever need to take it or not... but the option to be eligible is always there should you choose it... similar to a few states in the US that require certain criteria be met for licensure or even ability to sit for exams... as long as the school gives you the option of a path that would lead to eligibility.. then you're fine... if not.. then go to a different school... or don't expect to go for that path...

as of now.. if you're goal is to practice in the UK... don't come to SCIMD... the UK doesn't allow for us to offer that track yet.... maybe it will.. maybe it wont.. as of now its no...

diogenes
01-28-2007, 06:28 AM
.......This is actually an argument i've had with many people (our students included)... The way the GMC rules are set up now most carrib school wouldn't qualify either to sit for the plab (i've actually asked)... the GMC requires that the majority of study takes place in the country of charter... and most carrib school do less than 50% of their study on the island.. with either 5th semester in the US somewhere and all of clinicals elsewhere making the time on the island well less than 50%... but thats not here nor there because i'm willing to say 99.99% of the people who go to these schools don't want to go to the UK to practice anyway... so its a moot point............

Before U.K.-bound students at Caribbean med. schools start reaching for their cyanide capsules it's worth noting that the GMC's policy appears to be a little more flexible than this.
In their correspondence with a number of concerned individuals they have, it's true, indicated that they would prefer to see upwards of 50% of study on-island. However, they have also stated that between 30 and 49% candidates would be considered on a case-by-case basis.
There is also a slight hint that clinicals might be excluded from this magic figure. They have restated that their major concern is quality assurance at all stages of the course including rotations, and that it would be helpful to know what QA and audit arrangements are in place for clinicals done at a distance from the school. This makes sense and is perfectly reasonable. They know very well that many countries (not just the Caribbean states) have limited hospital facilities and have to send their students elsewhere for rotations. Indeed, we have an example on our own shores- St. Andrews med. school only teaches basic sciences and sends their students to distant schools/teaching hospitals after that. The GMC's policy is undoubtedly evolving (cynics might say it's chaotic - why is St. Eustatius in the hall of shame alongside the likes of Kigezi? - GMC | Acceptable primary medical qualification (http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/join_the_register/registration/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp#2))
The situation of St. Chris'. is of course different, and I agree with Azrealist that it will be a long route to obtaining U.K. recognition - with no certainty of success.
But they shouldn't give up. Forget this "squatter" pejorative that is bandied about (mostly on VMD: not by the GMC) ; concentrate on demonstrating the QA and audit that are (will be) in place. Remember that the GMC recognized St. Chris. degrees until its hand was forced by a slightly sensationalist popular radio feature. There are grounds for hope.
All this is speculation based on a few emails, letters and phone conversations: concerned Carib. students should consult the GMC themselves and if necessary get their school to start a dialogue with the GMC's Registration and Education Directorate.

Azrealist
01-28-2007, 08:49 AM
i agree 100%... everything is on a case by case basis...

as a matter of fact... we have graduates who are working/doing residency in states that we are not eligible in... why because they were reviewed individually and found to be acceptable...

What exactly was their case i don't know... maybe mommy and daddy are board members... or maybe they were just super stars... who knows...

the GMC rules will bend... how much? who knows... QA is the big thing... especially with rotations like you mentioned...

If all your rotations are done at ACGME accredited places or the equivalent in the county you're doing them... that in my mind is QA... if you do your rotation in my garage and claim it was rural family medicine.. then you may have added troubles...

I have some faith that the school is not going to just walk away from the GMC... unless they are actually run out of the country... or go 100% bankrupt, i see them working through this in time.

empathy
01-28-2007, 10:20 AM
You just have to stay positive. The thing to remember here is that the General Medical Council did allow St. Chris students to practice in England in the past. They only recently, within the last two years, closed that door. The door closed because the BBC did an investigation which caused the GMC to do an investigaton. The issues they uncovered about the school appear to have been resolved. The dishonest 'say anything' fellas with the "Quack Qualifications" and bad reputations who were at the helm of St. Chris are gone. And if many of the rumors we've heard about the school had been true while the GMC's investigation was going on then England would have definitely shut the school down. We forget sometimes I think that this isn't a new school. St. Chris has been in England and on the GMC's radar for seven years now. I'd bet the GMC's major beef was with the old administrations and the lack of over sight by Senegal. Both factors have changed. Seems to me that any door that can be closed can be reopened if major circumstances like that change. St. Chris does bring revenue into Luton. Hundreds of students renting apartments, buying food, paying for transportation, etc. And the Luton economy can definitely use the boost.

maximillian genossa
01-28-2007, 01:41 PM
I love the way this discussion is evolving, very civilized and respectful. Congratulations!

Now on the GMC, correct me if I am mistaken, aren't SC grads from the program in Senegal elegible to sit for the PLAB? I don't think there shoud be any problems there, you go to Senegal, you do your studies there, etc.

Also notice on the GMC website how they consider on a case by case graduates from now defunct schools,(http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/join_the_register/registration/additional_primary_medical_qualifications.asp) like 3 schools they mentioned from the Dominican Republic, even Grace is mentioned.

Azrealist
01-28-2007, 03:59 PM
well since this whole mess first came up... they are not accepting people from the senegal program either...

They have asked both programs be evaluated by outside UK agencies or the equivalent in senegal before accepting either program... (but if the UK program gets it then the senegal program will to)

I know the UK program has been evaluated recently by this gov't agency (not the GMC). They made a list of things that needed to be changed before approval from this agency was given... and the school was given a time frame to do it

Some were stupid things other more legit
for example...
1- the bathrooms and classrooms needed to be repainted... (maybe they didn't like the color.. who knows...
2- The library had to have x number of active subscriptions to medical journals ( i don't know what the number is but we didn't have it)
3- something or other that each floor of the current building needed to be able to be locked and seperated from other floors.. (ie every door everywhere needed locks)
etc.. etc...

so things along those lines... nothing was really more than just annoying little things that will take some time (the UK workers don't get things done quickly at all) and money to have finished...

all and all it will just be a big chunk of money that needs to be put in for upgrades before the green light from this agency is given so that we can approach the GMC again...

ol' man
01-28-2007, 04:15 PM
annoying little things that will take some time (the UK workers don't get things done quickly at all)


But it would seem like the speed of light compared to the Caribbean workers.

Anyway, congrats on getting SC turned around. I hope it continues to improve for you guys. Although several posters in this forum seemed to take glee in the downfall, I truly wanted (and still want) the school to be a success for the students. Hopefully in a few years you can come back and tell the naysayers that you thrived in spite of their efforts to destroy your school and your lives.

Good luck to all of you.

empathy
01-28-2007, 05:49 PM
I'm almost finished being mad at you.


I love the way this discussion is evolving, very civilized and respectful. Congratulations!

Now on the GMC, correct me if I am mistaken, aren't SC grads from the program in Senegal elegible to sit for the PLAB? I don't think there shoud be any problems there, you go to Senegal, you do your studies there, etc.

Also notice on the GMC website how they consider on a case by case graduates from now defunct schools,(GMC | Additional Primary Medical Qualifications (http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/join_the_register/registration/additional_primary_medical_qualifications.asp)) like 3 schools they mentioned from the Dominican Republic, even Grace is mentioned.

maximillian genossa
01-28-2007, 10:08 PM
Well thank you !!! Made my day ;)



I'm almost finished being mad at you.

empathy
01-28-2007, 11:12 PM
are you guys renting the building in Luton or do you own it? Seems like if you are renting the owners might agree to paint the bathrooms and do some renovations for you if you explain the situation. Some landlords however simply don't care. The library has been an issue for a long time. People have complained about it here on Valuemd. So, it's actually good that you are addressing it but I'm sure medical journals aren't cheap. Nothing is now days. The fact that you have been given a list and a chance to make improvements is a very good sign.

Azrealist
01-29-2007, 06:20 AM
as of now the buildings are being rented...

The cost to buy anything in the UK is so over the top its unreal... even prices to rent is rediculous...

just to compare... if you happen to be renting apartments in a city in the US.. you know that finding a place for ~400-500/month.. you're probably living in a less than desirable area (aka ghetto)... well that same crappy apartment in the UK would cost you 400-500pounds... so with an almost 1:2 exchange.. you're paying almost 1000us for the same run down place...

Right before i left luton when the school was almost at the height of it cash flow income (which was fairly significant as everyone see's from the court papers) is when they even started thinking of buying their own place.. and from what everyone knows of PL and the lies he used to tell ... in order for him to even think of buying a place.. means they have millions just falling out of his cheap pockets...

bottom line... no one buys in the UK... at least not as a buisness that is still running on a loss

empathy
01-29-2007, 10:37 AM
Iíve heard that from other friends too. England is very expensive. Renting is smart. Most business owners just lease office space anyway. The landlord might help with the improvements probably not. Some people just want your $$$ and take very little pride in what they are providing.

What happened to the other building? Remember there were two St. Chrisís for a while. The real one with the original charter holders and L.ís new chartered one. He shut down after a few months so were you guys able to get the building back or any of the equipment? Is it sitting empty or has it been rented or sold? The lease must have been under his name.

Now, that you guys have won/settled in court and he has left England maybe you can send the court docs to Oregon and get their website updated. The info is old and incorrect. It still says that the school merged with another college and the ownership is under dispute which isnít true.

teratos
01-29-2007, 10:47 AM
Now, that you guys have won/settled in court and he has left England maybe you can send the court docs to Oregon and get their website updated. The info is old and incorrect. It still says that the school merged with another college and the ownership is under dispute which isnít true.

Aren't there are lot of cases still pending? Probably best to wait until there is nothing related to SC on any docket anywhere, and then try to clear the air with Oregon. You don't need anything that will raise suspicion. You know they are looking for anything they can to use against you. G

empathy
01-29-2007, 11:23 AM
it's better to turn the tables and stay right on 'em. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.


Aren't there are lot of cases still pending? Probably best to wait until there is nothing related to SC on any docket anywhere, and then try to clear the air with Oregon. You don't need anything that will raise suspicion. You know they are looking for anything they can to use against you. G

teratos
01-29-2007, 11:25 AM
it's better to turn the tables and stay right on 'em. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

When dealing with a state government that really doesn't like offshore schools to begin with, not so much.....

empathy
01-29-2007, 11:49 AM
but all that's really pending is financials right...just sorting out who got what and who needs to pay back what? Sounds like the old administrators still need to give back $200,000 - $300,000 or so. The ownership itself is no longer in dispute. The old administrators have finally returned the student's records so that's okay too. Sounds like the majority of the legal stuff is behind them.

teratos
01-29-2007, 11:57 AM
Probably, but the fact that there is still contention about all of that stuff may be viewed in a negative light. Oregon hasn't always been fair in the past, have they? They may just look at the fact that there are court cases pending, and say "the school has legal issues". If they keep you on their hit list, they won't lose any sleep. I would let everything settle, and get the school running smoothly for a little while before calling attention to myself.

empathy
01-29-2007, 12:10 PM
You are absolutely right. We don't want St. Chris to end up like this:

:wizard:


Probably, but the fact that there is still contention about all of that stuff may be viewed in a negative light. Oregon hasn't always been fair in the past, have they? They may just look at the fact that there are court cases pending, and say "the school has legal issues". If they keep you on their hit list, they won't lose any sleep. I would let everything settle, and get the school running smoothly for a little while before calling attention to myself.

Azrealist
01-29-2007, 01:13 PM
i personally have sent information to Alvin Contreras about all of above mentioned things...

a certain VMD "consumer advocate" (i wont mention names) seems to have a hold on oregon for some reason...

I sent court docs for the UK.. his response --> not valid in the US.. we're a different legal system.

I sent DfES listing... along with original charter and the updated letter--> response.. we can only accept things directly from the Minister of Education...

it goes on and on... now mind you every time someone new asks... they "know" that we're not listed in the DfES... i've actually sent e-mails from various account asking the same questions.. just to confirm for myself.. they either forget the info sent to them the previous day..

oregon is a disaster that is being run by 2 people who for some reason really want to hold SCIMD down... i still haven't figured out why...

if you want to try for yourself... contact them and tell them that their info is outdated and incorrect... and see what the answer you get is... it pretty amusing...

teratos
01-29-2007, 01:50 PM
oregon is a disaster that is being run by 2 people who for some reason really want to hold SCIMD down... i still haven't figured out why...

if you want to try for yourself... contact them and tell them that their info is outdated and incorrect... and see what the answer you get is... it pretty amusing...

Exactly why I think it is better not to try to deal with them until the dust settles. Some people will do all they can to push their own agenda, no matter how illogical it is. When dealing with a state, you are at their mercy. There is no 2 way dialogue. I don't think it is proper for a student ( I am assuming you are a student, correct?) at the school to be sending in documentation. I think this may send up red flags for them as well. It is typically the minister of education or a school official who should deal with those issues. Just another thing to make them look at you funny. I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything. I understand where you are coming from. Imagine you are on the board of Oregon and you get documentation about a medical school from a student. Doesn't that just seem out of place?

Azrealist
01-29-2007, 02:37 PM
i'm not a current student... i graduated...

and when i approached oregon.. i never told them i was a student...

i started by saying that i am interested in attending SCIMD.. but the state i'm interested in practicing in uses oregons list of schools that are not acceptable.... and i sent this to the general oregon e-mail address...

i got a reply the same day saying...

"st christopher's aka MUAB, aka scimd, no longer operates in the UK.. they were bought by MUAB and moved to the carribean island of belieze..."

almost like someone copied all the rumors from VMD and put them together..

So i probed very politely and said "hmmm... i called the school and they told me they still located in luton and have never been bought by MUAB and are still run by a school in senegal"

She then replies..."well according to the UK they can't provide visa's to you so you shouldn't go because this would be HUGE mistake...."

so i replied... "well i called them... asked them about this.. and they sent me these documents from proving they are allowed to operate there yada yada..." i asked if she wanted a copy and she said yes.. so i sent it to her... That when i asked if i could talk to someone who knows what is going on because she obviously was out of the loop...

Thats when i was refered to Alvin who sent me an e-mail which he just copied the stuff posted on their website and said these are all verrified facts..

So i started again... and thats when the whole circular argument came in with him pointing out one place he liked today.. then not tomorrow.. but then yes again the next...

i never once said i had anything to do with SCIMD... just someone asking questions.. plus all the documents i sent to him.. are all publically available and posted all over the internet... mostly by his own guy AZ... i sent nothing that you can't find just using google...

i really really encourage you to just contact them and ask questions about why are there so many mistakes on their website?... pretend to be anyone you want... and then watch how poor their arguement or reasons are... please even prove something to them... then contact them from another e-mail asking the same question you just proved... MAGIC... like the first time they've ever heard it...

teratos
01-29-2007, 03:13 PM
OK, with the whole story it makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. G

empathy
01-29-2007, 03:45 PM
Teratos is on fire today and making some really good points. He must be drinking. J

Contrary to popular belief ** doesnít have Oregonís ear. As far ** goesÖheís just got it in his head that St. Chris is bad and should be closed and I donít think anything will change his mind. Life changes constantly and closed minded people miss out on a lot.

teratos
01-29-2007, 04:02 PM
Actually, I have a wicked case of gastroenteritis. Can't do anything but lay on the couch. To add insult to injury I threw my back out during a particularly nasty wretching session, so I can't move without a lot of pain. I get dystonia from anti-emetics, and pain meds make me nauseated. Today is not going so well. :rolleyes:

empathy
01-29-2007, 05:40 PM
hopefully you'll feel better tomorrow.

Azrealist, I have called Oregon. I'd bet you and I talked to the same lady. Overall I was impressed because she was extremely professional. I think at the same time I was making calls -- BTS was as well. And that might be the problem you are having with Oregon. The old cheerleaders did a lot of damage. Google their names and read what they posted on student forums all over the web. I don't think they realized that their spinning was finding it's way back to Oregon and the GMC. But I don't see how? It's pretty stupid to lie like that on public forums. Now, people are very nervous about the school. When students speak they wonder....is it true or some story they've been fed? But hopefully now that all the old players are gone people will give you guys a second chance. It might take a while because that cheerleader nonsense went on for years but given time and a lot of hard work you'll earn people's trust. You are on the right track and doing all the right things. That's why I feel we should all get behind you guys now. You need all the encouragement you can get.

stateofequilibrium
01-29-2007, 05:43 PM
Actually, I have a wicked case of gastroenteritis. Can't do anything but lay on the couch. To add insult to injury I threw my back out during a particularly nasty wretching session, so I can't move without a lot of pain. I get dystonia from anti-emetics, and pain meds make me nauseated. Today is not going so well. :rolleyes:

Oooh! that's a lot of fun! Have you had the two-for-one fun package yet where you're trying to decide whether it's more sanitary to puke on the floor or crap on the floor? Hope you feel better G.

Azrealist
01-29-2007, 06:17 PM
both the lady and alvin were very polite and professional in each communications... they just led no where... close one door.. they open 5 more... just to selectively close and re-open at almost random....

empathy
01-29-2007, 06:30 PM
I think Teratos is right about Oregon. Just work hard and lay low. Let them approach you in a few years after rec'ing tons of calls from students in Oregon wanting to go to St. Chris and come home and practice in Oregon.


both the lady and alvin were very polite and professional in each communications... they just led no where... close one door.. they open 5 more... just to selectively close and re-open at almost random....

Azrealist
01-29-2007, 07:20 PM
sadly that can't be done... several states have picked up the "oregon list"... and there is word that others may follow... so oregon has become a high priority.

The main problem with oregon is that they don't review any medical schools...
to quote alvin "since we don't have the resources to evaluate schools ourselves we must rely on outside evalutations"... so the school has gotten one of those outside gov't agencies to evaluate them... once the reccomendations are finished and the accreditation is complete... oregon will be approached from all angles...

teratos
01-29-2007, 07:32 PM
I do think the old cheerleaders did an awful lot of damage. I would venture to say it was their constant, and often transparently false "rah, rah, rah" that brought an enormous amount of negative attention to the school. The arrogant delievery made a lot of people want to see the school fail. I am glad to see the voices here are more reasonable. If the truth is told about the good and the bad, then there is nothing to complain about at the end of the day. I post because I want people to benefit from my experience. When I was applying, Al Gore had only recently invented the internet, and there weren't resources like this. I think we have a responsibility to provide the most accurate information possible to those just beginning to consider this route. G

empathy
01-29-2007, 07:59 PM
I know I can be long winded - sorry. I think you missed my questions here. What happened to the other building?

Teratos, I agree with you. I can tell you from my experience here on Valuemd that it feels much better to build something up than to tear something down. I knew the cheerleaders and the old administrators had to be brought down and the truth be told about them but it sure did make me feel icky being a part of it. Every day when I'd log onto this site to debate with them I'd get a sick feeling in my stomach and a horrible headache. I hated it. This is much nicer. It's starting to look like the story will have a happy ending and I'm glad.


Iíve heard that from other friends too. England is very expensive. Renting is smart. Most business owners just lease office space anyway. The landlord might help with the improvements probably not. Some people just want your $$$ and take very little pride in what they are providing.

What happened to the other building? Remember there were two St. Chrisís for a while. The real one with the original charter holders and L.ís new chartered one. He shut down after a few months so were you guys able to get the building back or any of the equipment? Is it sitting empty or has it been rented or sold? The lease must have been under his name.

Now, that you guys have won/settled in court and he has left England maybe you can send the court docs to Oregon and get their website updated. The info is old and incorrect. It still says that the school merged with another college and the ownership is under dispute which isnít true.

Azrealist
01-29-2007, 08:33 PM
i'm not sure what happened to the other buildings... but they were leased also... so i'm assuming that the lease just expired and who knows from there.. plus MUAB moved to london... and from what i hear they are actually still holding classes there this semester... not sure how with no DfES and a smaller student body than what we have... and london is even more rediculously expensive than luton...

There has been talk about buildings on our internal forum lately and from what the students in luton say is that those old buildings are still vacant... but i can't say forsure... there was 2 building being used before.. one for premed, and one for med... they were supposed to be working on a building for labs, and research... (they were planning a PhD program)... and get actually research going for the NY and cali site visits...

but with the current size of the program.. i don't think there is need or plans for a bigger or second building, or even research for a while at least

empathy
01-30-2007, 08:53 AM
If you had a pre-med program does that mean students can go straight to St. Chris after high school or do they still need to have a four year degree?

Azrealist
01-30-2007, 09:11 AM
there is a pre-med program... you don't need a 4 year degree to get into med school.. you just need to make the list of required courses and hours in class that licensure boards require...

it was designed to emulate the 6 year degree that is done in europe... this was originally set up because we had alot of interest from UK students at one point... the UK med school system is just as tough to get in as the US or Canada.. and SC offered an alternative...

my personal opinion... and the opinion of most of the other students at SC ... you'd be nuts to go straight into the premed ....

1- Uni/college in Can and US... best times of your life for partying... plus the experience and growth is priceless --> the worst students i have to say that came through SC were the premeds who went through to the MD... not because they were academically poor..(some were actually really good) but because they were very immature.. and didn't get the reality check that university gives you... and they show up to rotations with the hat cranked sideways and the "YO YO YO" attitude... that kinda crap only lasts about a month in real university before you piss someone off and get a beating...

2- most importantly EVERYONE should at least try the "traditional" route of getting into a canadian or US med school... there isn't a foreign school out there that can say they are equal to a US or canadian school with regards to acceptance... and i don't care if you're eligible for licensure in every state... if you're not a US/Can grad you're still looked down on no matter what school you came from

so do i recommend the 6 year program.... if we were still able to write the PLAB... then maybe i would to EU or UK students who didn't get into an officially accredited EU or UK school... would i recomend the 6 year program to others? yes because the school needs the money and students, and these kids will probably get weeded out eventually anyway... but more NO because everyone... EVERYONE should at least take a shot at a US or can med school

diogenes
01-30-2007, 10:04 AM
I thought that was a great summary of why people should avoid entry direct from high school.
I've seen quite a few of the products of Central and Eastern European English language med. courses who came straight from U.K. secondary school. Yes, they were missing out on a lot from normal U.K. university and a number have failed to mature in the way that I would have expected if they'd taken that other route.
In many ways I also regret that the norm here in the U.K. is for direct entry to a 5-year course (Graduate-entry 4-year progs. were only introduced a few years ago). The only saving grace is that usually students have opportunity to mix with other students of the university their med. school is a part of.

empathy
01-30-2007, 10:54 AM
Some people do develop young. Iíve been self employed and out on my own paying my own bills since I was eighteen. It gives those type personalities an option outside of the normal route which is good. Of course, Iím not a doctor and my job didnít require that I be professional until I got into non-profit stuff. But I did have to be goal oriented, focused and self disciplined. I think the immature students youíve seen may be a result of a poor interview process. A younger student coming direct from secondary school shouldnít be dismissed or discouraged but they should have to go through a series of interviews by experienced educators and pros designed to weed out the immature ones.

AUCMD2006
01-30-2007, 11:28 AM
Some people do develop young. Iíve been self employed and out on my own paying my own bills since I was eighteen. It gives those type personalities an option outside of the normal route which is good. Of course, Iím not a doctor and my job didnít require that I be professional until I got into non-profit stuff. But I did have to be goal oriented, focused and self disciplined. I think the immature students youíve seen may be a result of a poor interview process. A younger student coming direct from secondary school shouldnít be dismissed or discouraged but they should have to go through a series of interviews by experienced educators and pros designed to weed out the immature ones.

the ability to pay your bills on time and 'growing up' early does not give most the emotional depth to deal with medical issues. living through college puts things in your personal armory to be able to empathize with people's problems.

i don't think it is as much the actual act of muddling through courses or crawling up stairs to pass out. i think the emotional minefield that you go through is what will make you a better doctor. you may see drug addiction start, destroy a life upclose, someone die commit suicide overdrinking, sexual attcks, rapes, etc. then there are relationship issues that are in another league vs high school. being through real heartbreak not some highschool angst will give you a better understanding of the depressed divorced wife. all these things add up and make you medically mature...

diogenes
01-30-2007, 12:26 PM
the ability to pay your bills on time and 'growing up' early does not give most the emotional depth to deal with medical issues. living through college puts things in your personal armory to be able to empathize with people's problems.

i don't think it is as much the actual act of muddling through courses or crawling up stairs to pass out. i think the emotional minefield that you go through is what will make you a better doctor. you may see drug addiction start, destroy a life upclose, someone die commit suicide overdrinking, sexual attcks, rapes, etc. then there are relationship issues that are in another league vs high school. being through real heartbreak not some highschool angst will give you a better understanding of the depressed divorced wife. all these things add up and make you medically mature...
That's a superbly eloquent statement of the issue.
In answer to Empathy's last post - No, I wouldn't want to totally prohibit school-leavers from entering med. school. I agree that there are some such people with almost preternatural maturity who put us all to shame. But I think that for the vast majority a gap of a few years between school and medicine is of enormous benefit. As well as the emotional education AUCMD2006 mentions there are other things which might seem trivial by comparison, but are still useful. It might be the experience of the world of work - if only during a summer vacation. It might be gathering knowledge of other professions, interests etc.
Med. school is a very unusual, rarefied world - by itself I don't think it adequately prepares most people for the kind of challenges a doctor will face in dealing with patients.
If we could devise interview techniques and psychometric tests that really could identify those who were suitable for direct entry that would be fine. But I think we're a long way from that yet. If and when we have such sophisticated screening my guess is that it would not admit many school leavers.

empathy
01-30-2007, 12:53 PM
But we have 18 year olds volunteering in ERís, going on missions overseas and working in mission shelters. And how Ďbout the military? Iíve been around Washington a little bit so I know some lifers. They started out at 18 and never missed a step. Very driven, focused and goal oriented. Medicine is a calling and many great doctors receive that calling very young.

maximillian genossa
01-30-2007, 01:22 PM
..."I think the immature students youíve seen may be a result of a poor interview process."

As a result of a poor screening process?

Now, in terms of maturity age to enter medical school, lets not forget that in European countries like Spain, and most if not all Latin American Countries like Mexico, Chile, Argentina,Colombia, Ecuador, Peru..etc you enter medical school after our high school equivalent. Provided they admit you. How does their screening process compares it is up to debate. The vast majority of young physicians I have encountered in the afortementioned countries have come across as competent and mature enough to do the job. Some bad apples, yes, we find those everywhere.

Just my .02 cents, pesetas or pesos or euros







Some people do develop young. Iíve been self employed and out on my own paying my own bills since I was eighteen. It gives those type personalities an option outside of the normal route which is good. Of course, Iím not a doctor and my job didnít require that I be professional until I got into non-profit stuff. But I did have to be goal oriented, focused and self disciplined. I think the immature students youíve seen may be a result of a poor interview process. A younger student coming direct from secondary school shouldnít be dismissed or discouraged but they should have to go through a series of interviews by experienced educators and pros designed to weed out the immature ones.

empathy
01-30-2007, 01:30 PM
have you seen fmso lately?


..."I think the immature students youíve seen may be a result of a poor interview process."

As a result of a poor screening process?

Now, in terms of maturity age to enter medical school, lets not forget that in European countries like Spain, and most if not all Latin American Countries like Mexico, Chile, Argentina,Colombia, Ecuador, Peru..etc you enter medical school after our high school equivalent. Provided they admit you. How does their screening process compares it is up to debate. The vast majority of young physicians I have encountered in the afortementioned countries have come across as competent and mature enough to do the job. Some bad apples, yes, we find those everywhere.

Just my .02 cents, pesetas or pesos or euros

diogenes
01-30-2007, 02:10 PM
..............................
Now, in terms of maturity age to enter medical school, lets not forget that in European countries like Spain, and most if not all Latin American Countries like Mexico, Chile, Argentina,Colombia, Ecuador, Peru..etc you enter medical school after our high school equivalent. Provided they admit you. How does their screening process compares it is up to debate. The vast majority of young physicians I have encountered in the afortementioned countries have come across as competent and mature enough to do the job. Some bad apples, yes, we find those everywhere.

Just my .02 cents, pesetas or pesos or euros

I'm forced to the conclusion that Latin med. students must be a superior breed:)
Seriously, I don't want to rubbish the 18 year-old students here in the U.K. or anywhere else. The majority will end up as fine doctors. But if I had my way, to maximise the quality, I would prefer to see more graduate entry/mature students in this country.
One beneficial spin off from World War II was that a large number of people entered the profession slightly later than usual, their education having been disrupted by 5 years in the military. I believe they brought a wealth of useful experience and understanding to the profession.

empathy
01-30-2007, 03:39 PM
I donít think it was the five years that made a difference in that generation but the war. War changes peopleÖmakes them deeper.

AUCMD2006
01-30-2007, 05:12 PM
..."I think the immature students youíve seen may be a result of a poor interview process."

As a result of a poor screening process?

Now, in terms of maturity age to enter medical school, lets not forget that in European countries like Spain, and most if not all Latin American Countries like Mexico, Chile, Argentina,Colombia, Ecuador, Peru..etc you enter medical school after our high school equivalent. Provided they admit you. How does their screening process compares it is up to debate. The vast majority of young physicians I have encountered in the afortementioned countries have come across as competent and mature enough to do the job. Some bad apples, yes, we find those everywhere.

Just my .02 cents, pesetas or pesos or euros








med school in most of these is also longer with the equivalent of our pre reqs the first year and a year of social internship at the end..that alone should mature you. there is no 'real' interviews at most of the ones you listed, it is basically those who have grades and can afford it can go..the real weedout process is actually staying and graduating..you can add france to that list...

diogenes
01-30-2007, 06:46 PM
I donít think it was the five years that made a difference in that generation but the war. War changes peopleÖmakes them deeper.
Fortunately, war is far from being the only experience which changes, deepens and broadens. AUCMD2006 mentioned a few others, the possibilities are limitless.
I gave that example because I thought it interesting and it involved relatively large numbers of people- a whole generation almost.
As I said before, I don't want to prohibit all 18 year-olds from med. school. But living in a country where entry at 18 has been the norm I see too many examples of people poorly prepared for medicine; encouraging the majority to wait seems to me to be best for them, the profession, and society as a whole.

Azrealist
01-30-2007, 06:58 PM
you know that if you guys don't cut it out.. this may actually turn into a civilized and semi interesting forum....

and just to through my 2 cents into the mix...

i'm strongly against going straight from High school... for the reasons i mentioned above..

plus if you look at the growing trend in medicine... its to increase the length of schooling required.. and increase the length of residency...

some of the medical schools are going to 5 year programs and incorporating a mandatory research year and making it an MD/PhD -->eg Case Western

90% of the people i've met in the more competitive specialties/residencies have multiple advanced degrees including but not limited to MPH, PhD, MSc, MPT, etc...

Several more competetive residencies are increasing their length of residencies by a year to include a mandatory research year...

So things are getting more competitive every year... and going straight from high school handicaps you from something more competitive... the MD now a days is the bare minimum... i'm actually contemplating how i can weasel in a PhD or MPH in my spare time...

empathy
01-30-2007, 07:04 PM
From what I've heard med school is pretty intense. If you put 100 - 18 year olds in a room who felt they were ready to go to med school....I wonder how many of them would actually be able to handle it. Older probably is better.

Swinging the conversation back over to Azrealist. I asked you about students tranferring back to St. Chris and you didn't feel they should right now. So that makes me wonder who should go to St. Chris now? US students? Senegal students? Students from other foreign countries?

diogenes
01-30-2007, 07:31 PM
Pending the arrival of hordes of new students with relevant issues to discuss- who's dating whom, the answers to this week's micro test etc.- perhaps this will be a forum for discussion of general med. school issues as above, a not-so-relaxing lounge.
I can't see Senegalese going there- not without generous scholarships which I doubt the admin. are about to provide. Besides, those who could afford it would probably go to more established schools and I would guess that there are still a fair few Senegalese in French med. schools.
Likewise, students from other countries who could afford the fees are most likely to opt for a safer bet elsewhere.
Which brings us back to the need for rehabilitation of the school in the U.S./U.K. I include the U.K. because it does look, from what Azrealist has said about Oregon, as if regaining GMC approval would help enormously to sway those American states who have dis-approved the school.

maximillian genossa
01-30-2007, 07:39 PM
It is a subjective appreciation, nothing wrong with that.The straight from high school model seems to be working pretty well for the countries I mentioned with no major problems. Besides they have been doing it for decades, more than our total age combined. Bassed on the facts that it has been done and worked well for so long in these countires, I don't see a sustaining argument that "going straight from high school handicaps you from something more competitive".

Peace to all.

Max



you know that if you guys don't cut it out.. this may actually turn into a civilized and semi interesting forum....

and just to through my 2 cents into the mix...

i'm strongly against going straight from High school... for the reasons i mentioned above..

plus if you look at the growing trend in medicine... its to increase the length of schooling required.. and increase the length of residency...

some of the medical schools are going to 5 year programs and incorporating a mandatory research year and making it an MD/PhD -->eg Case Western

90% of the people i've met in the more competitive specialties/residencies have multiple advanced degrees including but not limited to MPH, PhD, MSc, MPT, etc...

Several more competetive residencies are increasing their length of residencies by a year to include a mandatory research year...

So things are getting more competitive every year... and going straight from high school handicaps you from something more competitive... the MD now a days is the bare minimum... i'm actually contemplating how i can weasel in a PhD or MPH in my spare time...

empathy
01-30-2007, 09:42 PM
I guess it's a waiting game for now. All we know for sure is the school is still open and they are working on getting the GMC's approval back. Lots of students want to go to school in England so they shouldn't have trouble getting students once everything falls in place. They did it before so they can do it again.

Azrealist
01-30-2007, 09:50 PM
to answer max first... outside of the rare exception (and yes there are some) most of the people in specialty like plastics, ortho, radio, IR, etc.. all have advanced degrees, or have connections (ie mom or dad works there)

yes the model works great in those countries... but i can tell you from experience since i've lived in the UK and europe... MD's are not respected or paid the same anywhere else in the world like the US...

in the UK... if you want use a great pick up line at a bar... tell them you're an engineer or computer programmer... because they make the money.. MD's make no money and have little respect there... that why the HS kid going in works..

In the US people have this perception that MD's live like rock stars and don't do work.. and pretty much the "money grows on trees" mentality... proven by the 1000's of FMG's that try to come to the US... little do they realize that the streets aren't really made of gold.. and MD's work 80+ hours.. as a side story i rotated at a hospital in the US where "real" UK students also rotate on ocasion, and this was a surg sub-specialty.. his first day he asked what time do we start.. we said 5am.. and he laughed... didn't show up til 8, he actually thought we were joking... needless to say he didn't finish the 2 months he signed up for because the hours were "rediculous"...

so the point is.. you can't compare the US/can med school model to any other in the world.. the media has turned medicine in the US into a rock star fantasy... so everyone wants to be an MD... not true anywhere else...

.... as for empathy... who should come to SCIMD now... senegalese can come.. but not sure why because they have their own campus there.. and their own hospital.. and their own university in dakar... so unless they want to come and spend the extra money just to live in the UK.. no point...

and as of this moment I would reccomend SCIMD to those students who couldn't get in to US/Can/UK schools and know the specific state that they want to practice in, and its one that we're eligible in... you can't live on the promise that "we're working on xyz state and it'll be fixed by xyz date"... can't live on those.. because we got screwed by that before... only come if you want to practice in x state.. and we're good right this moment in x state... if the state you want is one that we're not good in right now find a school that is... DO NOT TRUST any school that tells you that they WILL BE ok in anything until they actually are... because as we learned your world can crash in very quickly...

empathy
01-30-2007, 10:13 PM
India and places like that? Would it make sense for them to come to St. Chris?

diogenes
01-31-2007, 04:08 AM
Sorry, duplicate post. Deleted.

diogenes
01-31-2007, 04:21 AM
India and places like that? Would it make sense for them to come to St. Chris?
In a word- no. See this from the Medical Council of India regs.-
Primary Medical qualification" means a medical qualification awarded by any medical institution outside India which is a recognized qualification for enrolment as medical practitioner in the country in which the institution awarding the said qualification is situated
This and the other considerations previously mentioned (affordability, recognition by various U.S. states etc.) will make St. Chris. unattractive at the moment.
If they sort out U.S./U.K. recognition then they might be in with a fighting chance in some more countries. But cost will still be a big factor. U.S./U.K./Canada remain their core market.

Azrealist
01-31-2007, 09:01 AM
again i think its still the same answer for everyone...

If a student from india want to practice in india... try for an indian school...

aparantly from the above since we're not eligible for licensure in india (not something anyone has every asked before) and if the student wants to practice in india.. i'd have to say no...

but if the student want to practice in a particular place that we are eligible and could not get into a school in that country of interest.. then sure.. why not come to SCIMD

empathy
01-31-2007, 09:06 AM
So, this list of improvements the GMC wants made is very important. Hopefully, theyíll be able to knock it out quickly and move on to the next step. Itís cool they are working with them. A very good sign.

Azrealist
01-31-2007, 12:40 PM
the list of imporvements wasn't from the GMC... but another UK accrediting agency... that goes into more detail on the academic side of things compared to DfES and ISO...

The GMC simply recommended a few different accrediting agencies that they said would be a first step before approaching them again... so the school is trying to get as many as possible that the GMC recommended before approaching them...

empathy
01-31-2007, 02:49 PM
for correcting me. Have a good evening!


the list of imporvements wasn't from the GMC... but another UK accrediting agency... that goes into more detail on the academic side of things compared to DfES and ISO...

The GMC simply recommended a few different accrediting agencies that they said would be a first step before approaching them again... so the school is trying to get as many as possible that the GMC recommended before approaching them...







Copyright © 2003-2018 ValueMD, LLC. All rights reserved.