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jesse14
05-02-2006, 12:43 PM
What are people's thoughts on the CMCC (Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College)?? I hear it's one of the best schools in North America.. is there any validity to that claim??
Thank you

drnick
05-02-2006, 01:49 PM
CMCC is recognized as the best chiropractic school in the world. They are evidence-based and provide an extremely difficult curriculum. If you graduate from there, you will be a very competent chiropractor.

The rule with chiropractic colleges is the more south you go, the more 'philosophical' it becomes. If you are more science based stay with the northern schools. CMCC, National, NYCC and Northwestern are considered the top schools.

Now, if you want my opinion of being a chiropractor, I can tell you from my own experience. If you are comfortable running around marketing yourself and convincing people how they should come and see you for their pain, then you might do 'alright'. Most of my colleagues have either left the profession, are planning to leave the profession or are miserable.

I have realized the demise of the profession and am leaving to pursue a career in medicine. I personally cannot mix business and treating patients. I want to be a doctor who cares about his patients.

The major problem with the profession is the lack of foresight. They do not understand the need to control growth. Supply must be balanced with demand. All the schools are private institutions. CMCC decided to spend $25 million on a new school when chiros just lost OHIP coverage, major reductions in motor vehicle accident treatment plan amounts, and a less than stellar result with a stroke inquest. They increased enrollment from 150 to 200. I heard that applicant numbers are so low that they barely fill the 200 spots.

My advice to you, you can find much better things to do with $80K-200K of tuition money. I suggest you ask many new grads how things are going. Pay attention to office hours of clinics. Don't ask the schools!

jesse14
05-03-2006, 12:02 AM
Thank's for the reply! Yes, i am looking to become a chiropractor and i intend on applying to the CMCC in the coming weeks. You said i should find recent grads and asking them how they are doing. I would love to do this but i see two problems with that. The first being i simply don't know how to find new grads and therefore it makes it hard to ask them how they're doing as new DC's. Secondly and most importantly, i suspect you are wantng me to talk to new DC's so i can whitness first hand how hard it is for them to make money and stay afloat. I gather that is all true but is that not true with most new professions on the first few years?? Would dentist, podiatrist, chiropodist, or PT be making great money in the first months or even years of opening their own practice?? I can only imagine that it takes time and money to start seeing a profit. As the saying goes "it takes money to make money". YOu asked if $80,000 is a lot of debt to be in to become a DC... i say yes it is and its all so worth it to me. I feel chiropractors have the ability to help many NMSK conditions that MD;s can not. That is NOT to say the DC is "better" than the MD, im just saying DC's arn't all quacks who can't do anything for anyone.

i'd like to hear some more of your insights as you have already have your DC and congrats on that. Did you go to the CMCC? And why did you even get ito chiropractic if you wanted to medicine instead...which is what you sai dyou wanted to be doing now, correct??

Take care

drnick
05-03-2006, 12:32 PM
Yes, I am a fairly recent grad of CMCC. Like you, I was determined to be a chiropractor against others warning me of the difficulties. At least I entered when times were good. Not times are VERY bad.

Let's assume you have a DC already. Try to find a job. Check all the different job sites. You won't find much. Nobody is looking for associates. People are looking for dumb new grads for straight-rent opportunities to help cover their own rent. The number of clinics for sale are increasing each day. You will also see an increasing number of vultures who are offering 'practice improvement' courses to people looking desperately for a solution.

I wanted to help people feel better. I thought that chiropractic would be more rewarding because you can follow the progress of your patients better than with medicine. The problem is you need patients. Secondly, I have recently learned that saving lives is much more rewarding than helping someone with a chronic back problem.

It's your life. My information is probably very tough for you to digest. The truth always hurts. If you want more opinions than my own, hit the concrete and ask around before you drop $80K and 4 years of your life.

Here is a great site with people who are not afraid to speak the truth:
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi

jesse14
05-05-2006, 02:00 PM
Hello doctor,

Im wondering, does CMCC have classes in business? Do they teach you how to set up a practice and get patients?? I know some schools do this but i'm wondering if the CMCC does. As far as them filling seat.... they had 600+ applicants for the 192 spots so they are doing just fine in terms of filling seats.

I know many chiropractos who are successfull personaly ( my dad being one of them) Yet, it seems like only the ones i talk to on the net are quiting the profession so i'm not sure what to believe. I am confused but i'm still going to apply and see if i get in

Rsxmachine
05-30-2006, 08:39 PM
Have you considered Naturopathic Medicine. It is currently growing rapidly in North America. It used to be mainstream until penicillin was discovered, but is now making a comeback because of the current issues involved in conventional medicine and the amount of prescription drugs people are taking. You will also notice in states and provices that currenlty have licencing for ND's, they have a fairly good scope of practice, which can include minor sugery and certain prescription rights.
I am from Toronto, I applied to CMCC, but decided not to go in for the interview after doing much research and seeking treatment from a chiropractor. I noticed that he was more interested in getting my business than making me healthier. I decided to take a risk and applied to CCNM, and was accepted. Hopefully I made a good choice.

drnick
05-30-2006, 11:31 PM
Hi Jesse, I seem to have missed your reply to my last message. So here it is now. CMCC has 1 class in 4 years called 'Jurisprudence' taught by the school's attorney. In this course, he basically teaches you how to be an honest doctor and to document everything you do properly. There is a major project that you get in a group of 3-4 people that you must come up with a huge business proposal. Most people take a previous year's project re-hash it and hand it in. You also need to spend 2 days in a health profession tribunal where you watch some type of doctor (MD, DC, DDS) sit on the stand and face losing his licence. Pretty scary.

All the chiropractors you know who are successful have been practicing for at least 10 years. They have an established patient base. If they would try to build that same patient base today, they would struggle. Ofcourse, you could do well if you scare people into believing that their are problems with their spine that will cause disease if they do not seek immediate chiropractic attention. There are also chiropractors who use g-d fearing tactics or believe that they are the hand of g-d in healing people. If you are going to be evidence-based and practice without the 'philosophy' than you WILL struggle! If you are comfortable as a salesman and mixing that with people's health, you should be ok, but never like the days of the old guys. Chiropractic is on the decline.

Look at the facts:
1) All provincial health plans have cut it out or are reducing coverage.
2) Automobile insurance re-imbursement is 10% of what it was only 3 years ago.
3) A study shows that less than 8% of the population use chiropractors.
4) More and more chiropractors are resorting to marketing schemes or coming out with their own line of products.
5) We lost the inquest in Ontario. The decision did not rule out that a neck manipulation was the cause of the death. Although it did not say it was.
6) Private health insurance is also reducing chiropractic coverage. Many used to have $500 of Chiropractic. Now that $500 is shared with massage, acupuncture, naturopath, etc..

You have only one GREAT thing going for you; You can take over your dad's practice presumably for free one day. Ask him what 'his numbers' are like these days and what he thinks they will be like when you graduate. Do the math. You might be in a unique position. Not like many new grads.

btw CMCC is a business run by the profession. They are not going to release the real applicant numbers. I was privy to the information from 2 years ago. That person worked inside the school and told me about the shock that the staff was in. Don't be fooled. Ask people who will tell you the truth!

Do yourself a favour and go to CMCC, and ask some clinical staff or researchers about the trend of new grads leaving the profession within the last few years.

As always, I always want you to discover things for yourself. Take a look at the student loan default rates in the USA for Chiropractors. It's not even up to date. http://defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/discipline.asp

I am telling you from mine and my colleagues experience. Make sure you know what you are getting in to. I have to spend now another 6+ years for a new profession. I wish I read then what I wrote now.


Hello doctor,
Im wondering, does CMCC have classes in business? Do they teach you how to set up a practice and get patients?? I know some schools do this but i'm wondering if the CMCC does. As far as them filling seat.... they had 600+ applicants for the 192 spots so they are doing just fine in terms of filling seats.

I know many chiropractos who are successfull personaly ( my dad being one of them) Yet, it seems like only the ones i talk to on the net are quiting the profession so i'm not sure what to believe. I am confused but i'm still going to apply and see if i get in

drnick
05-30-2006, 11:36 PM
I promise you will be poor and struggling as a naturopath. Go visit some offices to see how dead they are. You could always work at a health food store. This profession is not doing well. Read the news. They are having problems in the USA.

Do your research. Choosing a profession should be a thoroughly investigated decision. Volunteer and talk to people!

If you do go to CCNM, you will do your cadaver disection at CMCC.


Have you considered Naturopathic Medicine. It is currently growing rapidly in North America. It used to be mainstream until penicillin was discovered, but is now making a comeback because of the current issues involved in conventional medicine and the amount of prescription drugs people are taking. You will also notice in states and provices that currenlty have licencing for ND's, they have a fairly good scope of practice, which can include minor sugery and certain prescription rights.
I am from Toronto, I applied to CMCC, but decided not to go in for the interview after doing much research and seeking treatment from a chiropractor. I noticed that he was more interested in getting my business than making me healthier. I decided to take a risk and applied to CCNM, and was accepted. Hopefully I made a good choice.

Rsxmachine
05-31-2006, 07:07 PM
well, you could be right, but I have been doing research and I have found that the profession is growing and more and more people are going to see Naturopaths. You have to compare to where naturopathic medicine was 5-10 years ago. I definately know that it could be tough as a naturopath but as well it would be just as tough as a chiropractor. The only win/win is a Medical doctor, but as well they work extremely long hours.

AUCMD2006
05-31-2006, 10:33 PM
well, you could be right, but I have been doing research and I have found that the profession is growing and more and more people are going to see Naturopaths. You have to compare to where naturopathic medicine was 5-10 years ago. I definately know that it could be tough as a naturopath but as well it would be just as tough as a chiropractor. The only win/win is a Medical doctor, but as well they work extremely long hours.

depends on your practice and how much or how litle you wanna work. i know surgeons 15 years in practice still doing 80 hour weeks but that is what they thrive on.. i also know internists, pathologists, radiologists, FP's working 15-30 hrs a week being at home mom's, or seeing pts only 3 days then doing stuff for drug companies or HMO chart reviews 1 or 2 days a week making a VERY good living with great quality of life.

what makes medicine a great job is that you are much more in charge of how much you wanna work and how much you wanna earn than most other professions.

heres an interesting read:
http://www.valuemd.com/naturopathic-medicine/90999-naturopath-stand-trial-cancer-patients-death.html

i think ND's have a role that is still being worked out and if they get licensed and a defined scope of practice then i think it has a chance at co existing with evidence based medicine

Rsxmachine
06-01-2006, 01:14 AM
I definately agree with you. Only the future will tell what patients want but I definately believe integrative combined medicine will be the future of health care. That read you posted definately shows the necessity for state licensure , but the big issue is that there are only a select few who actually meet the requirements to practice Naturopathic medicine, and therefore very difficult to create laws in certain states. In order for Naturopathic medicine to really expand, there will need to be more colleges, more studies and more students entering the profession. I looked at the graduating class from ccnm 10 years ago and there were around 20 people, now there are around 150.

Oh, also there is a good website where unhappy chiropractors and chiropractic students talk about the prefession. http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi

AUCMD2006
06-02-2006, 01:31 AM
i agree, different fields working together is key but its a bit difficult with the tredeaus of the world selling 'secrets doctors don't want you to know' as scare tactics and quacks on the fringe claiming to cure cancer with magnets etc... all medical fields need to be regulated you are right...

Rchiro
08-19-2009, 07:33 PM
Hey Dr. Nick, Did you apply to med school then? Thanks.
I promise you will be poor and struggling as a naturopath. Go visit some offices to see how dead they are. You could always work at a health food store. This profession is not doing well. Read the news. They are having problems in the USA.

Do your research. Choosing a profession should be a thoroughly investigated decision. Volunteer and talk to people!

If you do go to CCNM, you will do your cadaver disection at CMCC.







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