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CorporateRaider
04-04-2006, 11:49 AM
Az, refers to the Senegalese as the "Men in Robes". Personally I like to place a name to a face, so , how about it? Who are the M.I.R. ? Names and credentials, please.

:D

azskeptic
04-04-2006, 11:52 AM
Az, refers to the Senegalese as the "Men in Robes". Personally I like to place a name to a face, so , how about it? Who are the M.I.R. ? Names and credentials, please.

:D Good point...any MDs in the group? From what school? Who is the boss of the group? Who owns their school? What is the board of directors made up by? How many students are in the present school in Senegal?

empathy
04-04-2006, 01:25 PM
mostly just blowing smoke. I wonder how deep the corruption goes. I mean the admin lie and they encourage the student cheerleaders to lie. Do the student cheerleaders ask students to lie or do they just lie to the students? Does Senegal lie? Are they going to approve student credits issued prior to 2003?

CorporateRaider
04-04-2006, 01:45 PM
Empathy, dear, ummmmmm, well, you, see,............your post did not answer my query.:D

empathy
04-04-2006, 01:55 PM
only asking a question that I'm sure we'll have the answer to very soon.

You know the cool thing is that the GMC already has all the answers courtesy of the BBC.


Empathy, dear, ummmmmm, well, you, see,............your post did not answer my query.:D

handsomeroses100
04-04-2006, 01:57 PM
st christopher student.dont be deceived.those guys are senegalese politicians.they want to make money out you guys.i want to encourage youy guys to start transfering especially those in the first year ok.those in the 4th or 5th year can continue with the senegalese people.africa is blessed but corruption has eaten deep.
dearest students dont be deceived.
the senegalese are wolves in sheeps clothing.
though sound interesting but remember cheap things are not sometimes genuine.
thanks
dearest student

AUCMD2006
04-05-2006, 07:33 PM
so who are the new owners of the SC senegal brand?

###
04-05-2006, 07:49 PM
.............

Tritonesub
04-05-2006, 08:12 PM
My understanding is that the curriculum etc will be controlled by Dr. IMD of Senegal with the aid of Dr. JB from geneva. The day to day business will be under the control of Mr. FS and Mr. TG an expert in reorganizing educational institutions. Dr. B and Mr. TG have extensive experience running and reorganizing schools in many different countries. Dr. B with experience in medical schools specifically and Mr. TG with experience in many different types and levels of schools.

pruritis_ani
04-05-2006, 08:16 PM
I agree with DrB, no MD's are really essential. However, people without controversy in their background, and people that encourage an evironment of transparency would be a good start.

I have no idea who these folks are, what qualifications they have, and how they feel about disclosure to students and the public. But, if SC students learned anything, I hope they learned that the administration's secrecy and insistence on a closed door policy certainly was part of the students not seeing this coming.

Hopefully they learned that legitimate operations have nothing to hide, nothing to fear. (However, it does seem that they are still doing a lot of behind the scenes work, which begs the question of how legitimate this operation is planning to be)

gazpacho
04-05-2006, 08:23 PM
My understanding is that the curriculum etc will be controlled by Dr. IMD of Senegal with the aid of Dr. JB from geneva. The day to day business will be under the control of Mr. FS and Mr. TG an expert in reorganizing educational institutions. Dr. B and Mr. TG have extensive experience running and reorganizing schools in many different countries. Dr. B with experience in medical schools specifically and Mr. TG with experience in many different types and levels of schools.

Wait, so what is happening? If L owns the buildings, then how can the Senegalese swoop in? Are you having classes in a different building?

Tritonesub
04-05-2006, 08:26 PM
Have fun discrediting Dr. IMD (owner of St. chris senegal from day 1). I would like to see at least one person who posts on this site to even come close to his CV. Laugh... you guys are just wasting time... go bother some other school... with your GED.

http://www.ias-worldwide.org/profiles/prof18.htm

For those of you still with doubts... just take a look at the pictures from the senegal st. chris website he's in several of the pics.

Tritonesub
04-05-2006, 08:48 PM
Wait, so what is happening? If L owns the buildings, then how can the Senegalese swoop in? Are you having classes in a different building?


You'll see in a couple of weeks. While almost all of the students are aware of what will happen, i am not authorized to give specifics on a public forum. All the info will be public domain shortly... from many sources.. possibly even your beloved eggman.

Mathalayapam
04-05-2006, 08:55 PM
Have fun discrediting Dr. IMD (owner of St. chris senegal from day 1). I would like to see at least one person who posts on this site to even come close to his CV. Laugh... you guys are just wasting time... go bother some other school... with your GED.

http://www.ias-worldwide.org/profiles/prof18.htm

For those of you still with doubts... just take a look at the pictures from the senegal st. chris website he's in several of the pics.

you put your trust in this guy?
http://www.ebolamonkeyman.com/www/images/sunny_nunan/PICTURE.jpg

The mere fact that he is associated with this so-called medical school kills all credibility he's had for many years. Look what happened to Pete Rose.
I am afraid Dr Iba Mar Doo Wop might not make the hall of fame now!

CorporateRaider
04-05-2006, 09:01 PM
Taken from a 419 scam baiter site?





you put your trust in this guy?
http://www.ebolamonkeyman.com/www/images/sunny_nunan/PICTURE.jpg

The mere fact that he is associated with this so-called medical school kills all credibility he's had for many years. Look what happened to Pete Rose.
I am afraid Dr Iba Mar Doo Wop might not make the hall of fame now!

gazpacho
04-05-2006, 09:17 PM
You'll see in a couple of weeks. While almost all of the students are aware of what will happen, i am not authorized to give specifics on a public forum. All the info will be public domain shortly... from many sources.. possibly even your beloved eggman.

Why the secrecy? Did they specifically say "don't tell anyone"? "authorized"? you sound like a school official...? Anyone willing to break radio silence?

Tritonesub
04-05-2006, 09:25 PM
you put your trust in this guy?
http://www.ebolamonkeyman.com/www/images/sunny_nunan/PICTURE.jpg

The mere fact that he is associated with this so-called medical school kills all credibility he's had for many years. Look what happened to Pete Rose.
I am afraid Dr Iba Mar Doo Wop might not make the hall of fame now!

Who's this? Your dealer? ... like i said the CV speaks for itself. And your accomplishments other than watching cokeheads play baseball on tv is?? ... exactly what i thought.

Tritonesub
04-05-2006, 09:38 PM
Why the secrecy? Did they specifically say "don't tell anyone"? "authorized"? you sound like a school official...? Anyone willing to break radio silence?


No i'm not a school official. But like i said, if it involves you.. then you already know most of the details. If you are an outsider then you'll find out when the rest of the world does in a couple of weeks. Wouldnt you rather hear it from an official source? Its not to be secretive. Its to assure that all the supporting info is in place before announcing things... something the previous admin did not do. We would rather say to you here is the info and here is all the proof... rather than give you the info and then hunt down proof for each of the plethora of questions that may arise. Its not a question of secrecy but one of efficacy.

gazpacho
04-05-2006, 09:47 PM
Wouldnt you rather hear it from an official source?
I think it's obvious why people are skeptical about "official sources" from this school. Remember that PDF put out by L? I hope you students are doing ok, it's you who have invested so much money into this school. An acquaintance of mine chose SC, so I am really curious, but we weren't that close so I can contact this person. Questions: 1) are classes still going on?; 2) if so, are they happening in a different place?

I hope it works out.

dt
04-05-2006, 09:56 PM
Is this a new twist on the previous "Poulter", "Nobel prize", "research program" drivel from the year 2004?


(just do search on the words)

AUCMD2006
04-05-2006, 10:03 PM
im a wanker... thats good comedy

Skipper
04-05-2006, 10:04 PM
Have fun discrediting Dr. IMD (owner of St. chris senegal from day 1). I would like to see at least one person who posts on this site to even come close to his CV. Laugh... you guys are just wasting time... go bother some other school... with your GED.

http://www.ias-worldwide.org/profiles/prof18.htm

For those of you still with doubts... just take a look at the pictures from the senegal st. chris website he's in several of the pics.


lol, i wouldnt be so proud---until you guys can actually become doctors, as of now you all are 200k in debt and maybe qualified to manage a BK

skipper

pruritis_ani
04-05-2006, 10:31 PM
You'll see in a couple of weeks. While almost all of the students are aware of what will happen, i am not authorized to give specifics on a public forum. All the info will be public domain shortly... from many sources.. possibly even your beloved eggman.

Ahhh, the typical SC response. All is still secret, I see.

What you guys seem to fail to grasp is that claiming all is well, or that the official word is soon coming is no longer at all believable. Not only has this never turned out to be true, but when there is nothing to hide, there is no reason for secrecy.

So, by hiding this "official" info from the public domain you are basically saying that either nothing is happening and you don't want to admit it, or whatever is happening is something that will not withstand any scrutiny.

Same old SC, different crooks running the show, methinks.

Picard
04-05-2006, 10:52 PM
Prof Ibrahim Mar Diop's background, while very impressive, does not address the current issues facing SC. I am sure, at 86 years of age, Prof Diop has done much for the medical communities in Africa and developing nations. I doubt he knows much about the politics of US medical educational system and the politics of US medical licensure.

I think the more important issues are whether or not SC should move it's UK campus back to Senegal? Squatting practice in the UK has a very bleak future, regardless of who runs the school. Plus all the legal battles that are in progress need to settle before the situation can stablize. US licensing boards are not going to care about which figure head is selected to "run" the school. It does not solve the legal mess created by L. And there will be licensing boards that will believe the Senegal spin off is a de facto new school, and you will still need transcripts from L.

Offshore IMG licensing is changing very rapidly, and not getting easier. Many new schools without SC's problems are having trouble with licensure in previously easy states. It will only get tougher. Offshore schools without any US approval (such as NY, FL, CA) will face an uphill battle in getting their graduates licensed in the next 5 to 10 years. SC's current problems will only add to the fire. You need to look at the big picture.

You can put Mario Andretti behind the wheel of a broken down 1985 Yugo with only 3 tires. Mario may be an awesome driver, that Yugo is still not going to go anywhere.

P

Tritonesub
04-05-2006, 11:25 PM
Understood. But St. Christopher IMD was never an offshore IMG school. It is a Foreign medical school like any other med school in africa or the multitude in india and pakistan. While L. may have created this impression by his marketing techniques (recruiting heavily from the U.S. since that is where the money was), it is not the case. If any board denies St. Christopher's, they would have to answer to why they discriminate against the country of senegal or the african medical education system....... and i doubt that they will go there. This is not some island used as a 'fake country' to issue and M.D. (all caribbean schools are fraudulent for this reason) .. this is a large democratic republic of 11 million with its own educational system and medical schools. Any attempt to dismiss an M.D. from the country of Senegal is nothing short of discrimination. And now with the widely publicized reaffirmation by the President of Senegal, The minister of Education and Minister of Health, states like CA, TX and OR better start coming up with reasons why they dissapprove of an African medical school.

###
04-05-2006, 11:36 PM
..............

pruritis_ani
04-05-2006, 11:43 PM
Understood. But St. Christopher IMD was never an offshore IMG school. It is a Foreign medical school like any other med school in africa or the multitude in india and pakistan. While L. may have created this impression by his marketing techniques, it is not the case. If any board denies St. Christopher's, they would have to answer to why they discriminate against the country of senegal or the african medical education system....... and i doubt that they will go there. This is not some island used as a 'fake country' to issue and M.D. (all caribbean schools are fraudulent for this reason) .. this is a large democratic republic of 11 million with its own educational system and medical schools. Any attempt to dismiss an M.D. from the country of Senegal is nothing short of discrimination.
First of all, there has yet to be ANY determination that the Senegal accreditation meets any standards. Second, claiming "discrimination" if the school is found to be inadequate will not hold up. It is not a matter of discrimination, it would be a matter of percieved quality of training. Third, the Senegal charter for SC is exactly like the Carib schools. Senegal did not set up this school, they sold a charter, and allowed somebody else to set it up. Now that a few Senegalese businessmen are in on the deal does not all of the sudden transform SC into a legit Senegalese school. Finally, ALL offshore med schools are offshore med schools. It makes no difference if it is the UK or St. Kitts that is the country. St Chris is different from the multitude of other schools in that a) the school seems to have predated the University that they claim to be part of, b) the school is operating in a different country than it is chartered in and c) the country of charter has already once refused to provide documentation of the school's status to the authorities.

I love when the discrimination card gets tossed around. As if practicing as a physician is a right, guaranteed to anyone with a degree. That is certainly not the case. Each state is mandated to protect it's citizens from unqualified practicioners. If a state deems the Senegalese schools inadequate entirely, or only SC, it is certainly the states perogative to do so.

Picard
04-05-2006, 11:44 PM
Understood. But St. Christopher IMD was never an offshore IMG school. It is a FMG school like any other med school in africa or the multitude in india and pakistan. While L. may have created this impression by his marketing techniques, it is not the case. If any board denies St. Christopher's after this is established, they would have to answer to why the discriminate against the country of senegal or the african medical education system....... and i doubt that they will go there.

Now, this is as silly as claiming SC to be a "private British medical school" or some SC students claim to be "English medical students" when asked.

St. Chris IMD technically has only existed for a few weeks. Now, if it wants to claim the bloodline of the SC under L (to claim that current SC students are not starting in a "new" school, but attending a new campus of an existing school), that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that it is an "offshore school" by definition.

I guess you probably don't understand what is considered an "offshore" school in the US licensing world. The term "offshore school" is a "common name" we use to define foreign medical schools that 1) targets US/North American students who did not get into medical schools in the US/Canada, and 2) has a "bi-modal" educational system in that it is based on US medical education system, and conducts it's clinical trainings primarily in affiliated hospitals in the U.S, while basic science is done in a foreign campus located outside of the US, and exports vast majority of it's graduates back into the US/Canada.

SC, whatever it's incarnation, fits both categorys above. Majority (if not most) of SC students are US/Canadian students who failed to get into med school in the US/Canada. SC certainly uses the US model of medical education, and conducts it's clinical trainings in the US, and exports vast majority of graduates back into the US. SC-whatever is an "offshore school." "Offshore" does not refer to "off the US coast." It refers to the model of education and the re-importation of US citizens back into the US medical market. SC-Luton is NOT based in Senegal/African education model. Heck, no documented SC grads are practcing medicine in Senegal!. SC is NOT a "true domicile foreign medical school" (a legal definition, by the way).

So, if you think SC grads will be treated any differently than Carib grads come licensure time, you are in for a rude awakening. And since many newer carib schools without SC's problems are having their graduates rejected left and right for licensure (ie TN, NV, two previously very easy states), you have an uphill battle in the next 5 to 10 years. j

P

Tritonesub
04-05-2006, 11:47 PM
deleted-double post

pruritis_ani
04-05-2006, 11:48 PM
So, if you think SC grads will be treated any differently than Carib grads come licensure time, you are in for a rude awakening. And since many newer carib schools without SC's problems are having their graduates rejected left and right for licensure (ie TN, NV, two previously very easy states), you have an uphill battle in the next 5 to 10 years. j

P

The poor students are like the victims of the Titanic, clinging to whatever floats in the middle of the freezing ocean. Hypothermia should soon set in, and then the blissful, eternal silence shall follow....but, in the meantime they have the hallucinations.

pruritis_ani
04-05-2006, 11:52 PM
Any attempt to dismiss an M.D. from the country of Senegal is nothing short of discrimination. And now with the widely publicized reaffirmation by the President of Senegal, The minister of Education and Minister of Health, states like CA, TX and OR better start coming up with reasons why they dissapprove of an African medical school.
You have a very strong misunderstanding of the process. The boards will NOT have to justify why the disapprove applicants. The applicants have the burden of proof, and must meet the boards standards. Any applicant from any school in any state must meet the states standards. If they don't, no practice for you!

This is very, very wishful thinking on your part. You seem to think that this Senegal involvement is going to magically transform SC. You had best think a bit more clearly, or the disappointment is going to be brutal.

Picard
04-05-2006, 11:56 PM
This is not some island used as a 'fake country' to issue and M.D. (all caribbean schools are fraudulent for this reason) .. this is a large democratic republic of 11 million with its own educational system and medical schools. Any attempt to dismiss an M.D. from the country of Senegal is nothing short of discrimination. And now with the widely publicized reaffirmation by the President of Senegal, The minister of Education and Minister of Health, states like CA, TX and OR better start coming up with reasons why they dissapprove of an African medical school.

Wow, you are in for a rude awakening.

First of all, caribbean nations are soverign nations, not "fake countries." If you don't understand this, you need to revisit high school political science class.

Second, you need to educate yourself in what "offshore medical school" means. It has nothing to do with "Off US coast." It's the common name for a mode of medical education targeting North American students in a bi-modal education system based on US medical education model. SC-Luton has NEVER taught medicine under the Senegal medical education system, and NEVER produced a practicing physician in Senegal.

You need to re-read what California law says about "true domicile foreign medical school." It's the definition most states, including FSMB, has endorsed. SC-Luton does NOT meet the definition of "true domicile foreign medical school." In fact, SC-Luton fits the definition of "offshore medical education" (or more acurately, "bi-modal medical education based on US medical education system, conducts clinical education in the US, and target north americans") 100%. And FSMB has made this distinction very clearly. And SC grads will be placed in the same category as any Caribbean grads come licensure time, except SC grads will have much more baggage with the Mr. L fiasco.

P

dt
04-06-2006, 12:05 AM
... And now with the widely publicized reaffirmation by the President of Senegal, The minister of Education and Minister of Health, states like CA, TX and OR better start coming up with reasons why they dissapprove of an African medical school.


Where was it widely publicized? Please provide some backup to this statement. Thanks in advance.

Picard
04-06-2006, 12:08 AM
Even if Presidento of Senegal has shown his support, it still doesn't change the status of SCIMD or SC-Luton as an offshore IMG school in the eyes of US licensing boards. It still doesn't address the core issues facing SC's survival in UK and it's licensibility in the US, given the current legal mess with L.

P

gazpacho
04-06-2006, 12:33 AM
Understood. But St. Christopher IMD was never an offshore IMG school. It is a Foreign medical school like any other med school in africa or the multitude in india and pakistan.

Has St C produced any graduates practicing in Senegal? If the answer is no, then St C is in fact an offshore IMG school.

Tritonesub
04-06-2006, 12:49 AM
Senegal has not produced grads because its only been 6 years. The program in french as stated on the website is 6 years based on the french system. There are students waiting to graduate very soon... hence the increased advocacy of senegal to protect the integrity of the school. They were in no rush until the ECFMG and GMC eventually put both campuses on hold.

PathOne
04-06-2006, 12:59 AM
Understood. But St. Christopher IMD was never an offshore IMG school. It is a Foreign medical school like any other med school in africa or the multitude in india and pakistan. While L. may have created this impression by his marketing techniques (recruiting heavily from the U.S. since that is where the money was), it is not the case. If any board denies St. Christopher's, they would have to answer to why they discriminate against the country of senegal or the african medical education system....... and i doubt that they will go there. This is not some island used as a 'fake country' to issue and M.D. (all caribbean schools are fraudulent for this reason) .. this is a large democratic republic of 11 million with its own educational system and medical schools. Any attempt to dismiss an M.D. from the country of Senegal is nothing short of discrimination. And now with the widely publicized reaffirmation by the President of Senegal, The minister of Education and Minister of Health, states like CA, TX and OR better start coming up with reasons why they dissapprove of an African medical school.

St. Chris UK has NO OTHER PURPOSE than to train doctors who wants to work in the US, UK or other developed world country. Heck, the vast majority of students/grads can't even work in Senegal even if they wanted to. Due to the simple fact that they're not fluent in French.

Also, the discrimination issue is entirely bogus. ANY sovereign country can approve or disapprove physicians from anywhere in the world - including their own citizens, if they have criminal convictions or for any other reason deemed legitimate. Heck, the US doesn't approve ANY postgraduate medical training from other countries, including Western Europe. Likewise, US medical training isn't automatically approved anywhere else outside North America.

Currently, Senegal has all of two medical schools. One is a well established school. The other is St. Chris Dakar. Senegal is of course free to charter any school they want to. But there's simply NO legal requirement for any country in the world to accept a Senegalese-chartered school if they don't want to. That is amply proved by the fact, that California and Texas, among others, have their very own lists of approved schools. And if you're not on that list, then you're simply never going to get a license, no matter how many charters you have or claim to have.

You might personally think that this is unfair, but St. Chris would probably be the last school that should test the limits of who can and who cannot get licensed, as the school operates a campus in another sovereign country (the UK) and produce graduates without even attempting to claim that the school's graduates would be able to get licensed in Senegal - which would be rather difficult if you don't test proficiency in the French language.

Sorry, but your arguments are simply too weak.

PathOne
04-06-2006, 01:06 AM
Senegal has not produced grads because its only been 6 years. The program in french as stated on the website is 6 years based on the french system. There are students waiting to graduate very soon... hence the increased advocacy of senegal to protect the integrity of the school. They were in no rush until the ECFMG and GMC eventually put both campuses on hold.

...and how many students are expected to graduate from Senegal? Apparently, St. Chris Luton has some 800 students. How many students are at the mother campus in Dakar?

Also, what academic links have existed between Luton and Dakar? What role does the Senegalese play in admissions committees? How are faculty and curricula integrated? Or, more to the point, what proof can be offered that there's a meaningful link between the UK and Senegal operations? (other than perhaps at best that Luton is supposed to subsidize Senegal, which still doesn't prove anything than the fact that St. Chris Luton is a commercially based operation designed to feed doctors to the US like all other offshore medical schools in the Carib etc).

Miklos
04-06-2006, 01:19 AM
Heck, the US doesn't approve ANY postgraduate medical training from other countries, including Western Europe. Likewise, US medical training isn't automatically approved anywhere else outside North America.

Great post.

Minor correction: In many cases, US states recognize Canadian post graduate training and vice versa for purposes of licensure (though the Canadians require an additional year). Some US specialty boards will grant a year of credit for postgraduate training from certain countries for the purpose of board certification. However, that doesn't apply to full licensure, with one small exception: licensure by eminence in medicine or appointment to a US medical faculty. But, the point is otherwise valid.

Picard
04-06-2006, 05:03 AM
The "definition" of a true domicile foreign medical school to produce medical doctors mainly to work in the charter country. "Foregin language" programs (instruction in language other than the official language of the charter country) are automatically presumed to fall outside of this definition because foreign language programs are not designed to produce gradautes for the charter country.

In the case of St. Chris UK, it's very obvious that the program is not to produce any graduates to work in Senegal -- French is not a requirement for admission. The curriculum is not based on Senegal model -- Senegal model is 6 years. Curriculum is based on US model, targeting North Americans. Instead of sending students for clinicals in Senegal, it sends students into the US for clinical training. 99+% of it's graduates are exported back into the US. St. Chris UK is an offshore school. To pretend otherwise is as silly as thinking SC UK students are "british medical students." The SC before the current fiasco would have had licensing problems in many states due to current IMG climates and not been approved by any US states that approve offshore schools (just like any new, unproven offshore schools in the same category). It's current fiasco will only weaken the ability of graduates to seek licensure. As much as Mr. L is being an AH, don't count him out so quickly. The odds are, you are going to need him and his outfit to provide you with documentations of your education come licensure time.

P

Picard
04-06-2006, 05:27 AM
Senegal has not produced grads because its only been 6 years. The program in french as stated on the website is 6 years based on the french system. There are students waiting to graduate very soon... hence the increased advocacy of senegal to protect the integrity of the school. They were in no rush until the ECFMG and GMC eventually put both campuses on hold.

This argument doesn't make sense if SC-Dakar is indeed the "parent university." If SC-Dakar is the parent university, the main campus, then why would Senegal care what ECFMG and GMC says about St. Chris-Dakar? SC-Dakar, if truly operational (this is still in doubt) is to provide medical education to Senegalese population and to produce doctors to work in Senegal. Why would it care what ECGMG/GMC says? None of the SC-Dakar folks should be taking USMLE/PLAB anyways. They curriculum should focus on Senegalese exams.

I think the reason is blatantly obvious -- SC-Dakar is essentially non-functional. It's only purpose is to serve as the charter source for SC-Luton where the money is. Senegal is pissed for one and only one reason -- SC-Luton under Mr. L did not pay up. No money = no functional Dakar school, and no kick backs to Senegal politicians who sold the charter. So, current SC students need to realize that once Senegal takes over, the Luton students will essentially be the sole financial support to the "parent" university in Senegal. Instead of one person to dipping his hand in the pot (Mr. L), there will be many more folks lining up to dip their hands into the financial pot in Luton. It's all about money (like any other offshore operation). The only difference is, other offshore operations have Americans with American interest in charge of the money (thus more accountable to it's customers/students if anything goes wrong, because the US can retain civil jurisdiction as disagreements will be among Americans). The new Senegal operation will put Senegalese in charge of money, American money from Americans. If anything goes wrong, customers (students) will likely have no recourse in the American court system. At least with Mr. L, you could sue him (or even criminally charge him) in the US when things went wrong. Once Senegal takes over, you will lose that ability, as your assets will be transferred to Senegal, where US courts have no jurisdiction (either over the money or the people). I'm not a lawyer, but I would worry about this big time. Perhaps attorneys on this board can chime in on this...

One other thing, in this post-911 world, American money heading into Islamic groups (as the parent university is run by) are bound to raise a few eyebrows in the law enforcement communit -- rightly or wrongly, this is the reality. The SC fiasco/saga has raised some chatters in the law enforcement community already....

P

teratos
04-06-2006, 07:16 AM
You'll see in a couple of weeks. While almost all of the students are aware of what will happen, i am not authorized to give specifics on a public forum. All the info will be public domain shortly... from many sources.. possibly even your beloved eggman.
I wish I had a dime for every time someone posted this. G

CorporateRaider
04-06-2006, 08:01 AM
I am a bit confused (and way off topic). Triton sub stated that there is a group of French speaking students that went through the six year program and are on the verge of graduation, yes? Yet, from the pictographic evidence, it seems that the Senegal University was established in the year 2003.

If the French speakers are close to graduation, we are looking at:

(a) 2003 + 6 year French Program = 2009 at the earliest to graduate.

yet as Triton described it:

(b) 2006 as a possible graduation year, would actually be -3 years in the program. Unless the French students did two years of course work for each, one calender year?

*offensive name*
04-06-2006, 08:09 AM
THERE IS NO SCHOOL IN SELEGAL !

you fools. you psychotic fools. that school is an outhouse

parles vous frances, you putzes?

GET OUT NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CorporateRaider
04-06-2006, 08:28 AM
As much as Mr. L is being an AH, don't count him out so quickly. The odds are, you are going to need him and his outfit to provide you with documentations of your education come licensure time.
P


An opinion:

What little is really known about this entire saga is not much, although the readership tries it best to sort the chicken salad from the chicken ****. While it's possibly that mister "L" appears to be in posession of student transcripts, he holds these transcripts as a "lowly" college attached to the mother university in Senegal. Legally speaking, the mother University in Senegal owns these transcripts (unless some other legally binding arrangement was made), for if the mother university declares these credits/transcripts/memorandum of marks, as INVALID/ILLEGAL/FAKE or otherwise, all mister "L" might be holding is a bunch of printed paper with NO VALUE!!!!! (hint.......hint........I hope the M.I.R. are paying attention, allegedly, I just blurted out a solution they can use.).

Of course if some other legally binding arrangment was made, then the entire concept of ACADEMIA was trashed to being with. A lowly college (as allegedly structured in the SCCM-Senegal deal and as structured in every single REPUTABLE University the world over) , a college, is nothing more than a training center, dependent on the mother university.

So, if I was a M.I.R. , what would I do? Simple as pie in my imaginary scenario:

I would write the EFMGC , WHOz, Steak Medical Boards, etc.. and notify them, that the only legal and valid credits issued during the period of 2000 - 2006 are those that carry the letterhead, seal and signature of the REGISTRAR of the University in De-car, Senegol and that all confirmation requests must be sent directly to REGISTRAR'S office in DA-CAR, SENEGOL.

What would I do, if Senegol did not already have a detailed copy of my student file?

In my Hollywood T.V. example, my actor students, soley need to request a copy of their transcripts from mister "L", each student request for a copy of his or her transcripts should carry a CC (Carbon Copy) request to the following:

(a) Local Newspaper (b) CNN (c) Steak Medical Boards (d) Attorney (e) Sherrif's Office (f) BBC (g) etc......

pruritis_ani
04-06-2006, 08:30 AM
This is sad. It is EXACTLY like the original St. Chris. The students are so desperate to justify why they are at the school, they come up with bogus reasons (a la St Chris is a true African school, somehow different from the Carib schools...sound familiar?) that they may actually even believe.

Guys, please wake up. You are living in a fantasy land, and basing your hopes and dreams on your weak rationalizations. Realize that you should really be focusing on the REALITY of the situation. Not what may happen, or how you think the school will be, or how you think the states will recognize the new school, or how the ECMFG and GMC will maybe in the future give your school recognition.....live in the NOW! This school was built on empty promises that never came true, yet the students still stand around and try to convince themselves of a rosy future.

Seriously, even if magically the ECFMG and the GMC come through, this school is pretty toast. If you cannot see that, you are blind. Even if somehow these organizations are scammed into recognizing SC again, all that means is that SC has the absolute minimal requirements to even be a medical school. EVERY other school out there has the ECFMG, without the problems that SC is going to face in terms of state licensure.

Really, it is time to wake up people. The school offers NOTHING that you cannot get somewhere else, with the exception of huge problems. If you wnat problems, if you want to throw a lot of money into an at best limited, and possibly useless degree, by all means hop aboard this leaky, sunken ship.

*offensive name*
04-06-2006, 08:30 AM
An opinion:

What little is really known about this entire saga is not much, although the readership tries it best to sort the chicken salad from the chicken ****. While it's possibly that mister "L" appears to be in posession of student transcripts, he holds these transcripts as a "lowly" college attached to the mother university in Senegal. Legally speaking, the mother University in Senegal owns these transcripts (unless some other legally binding arrangement was made), for if the mother university declares these credits/transcripts/memorandum of marks, as INVALID/ILLEGAL/FAKE or otherwise, all mister "L" might be holding is a bunch of printed paper with NO VALUE!!!!! (hint.......hint........I hope the M.I.R. are paying attention, allegedly, I just blurted out a solution they can use.).

Of course if some other legally binding arrangment was made, then the entire concept of ACADEMIA was trashed to being with. A lowly college (as allegedly structured in the SCCM-Senegal deal and as structured in every single REPUTABLE University the world over) , a college, is nothing more than a training center, dependent on the mother university.

So, if I was a M.I.R. , what would I do? Simple as pie in my imaginary scenario:

I would write the EFMGC , WHOz, Steak Medical Boards, etc.. and notify them, that the only legal and valid credits issued during the period of 2000 - 2006 are those that carry the letterhead, seal and signature of the REGISTRAR of the University in De-car, Senegol and that all confirmation requests must be sent directly to REGISTRAR'S office in DA-CAR, SENEGOL.

What would I do, if Senegol did not already have a detailed copy of my student file?

In my Hollywood T.V. example, my actor students, soley need to request a copy of their transcripts from mister "L", each student request for a copy of his or her transcripts should carry a CC (Carbon Copy) request to the following:

(a) Local Newspaper (b) CNN (c) Steak Medical Boards (d) Attorney (e) Sherrif's Office (f) BBC (g) etc......

I wouldn't even wipe my bunghole with any transcripts from St Chris, let alone a diploma.
My bunghole gets chaffed easily, and frankly it's a little sore at the moment after getting reamed by Mr Leeonee

*offensive name*
04-06-2006, 08:32 AM
This is sad. It is EXACTLY like the original St. Chris. The students are so desperate to justify why they are at the school, they come up with bogus reasons (a la St Chris is a true African school, somehow different from the Carib schools...sound familiar?) that they may actually even believe.

Guys, please wake up. You are living in a fantasy land, and basing your hopes and dreams on your weak rationalizations. Realize that you should really be focusing on the REALITY of the situation. Not what may happen, or how you think the school will be, or how you think the states will recognize the new school, or how the ECMFG and GMC will maybe in the future give your school recognition.....live in the NOW! This school was built on empty promises that never came true, yet the students still stand around and try to convince themselves of a rosy future.

Seriously, even if magically the ECFMG and the GMC come through, this school is pretty toast. If you cannot see that, you are blind. Even if somehow these organizations are scammed into recognizing SC again, all that means is that SC has the absolute minimal requirements to even be a medical school. EVERY other school out there has the ECFMG, without the problems that SC is going to face in terms of state licensure.

Really, it is time to wake up people. The school offers NOTHING that you cannot get somewhere else, with the exception of huge problems. If you wnat problems, if you want to throw a lot of money into an at best limited, and possibly useless degree, by all means hop aboard this leaky, sunken ship.

There once was a bird called the DoDo. It has a lot in common with the current fools that want to hitch their wagon to the gangsters from Dakar.
The DoDo is now in a museum.
People need to scrap all transcripts. Forget them. Start over. Even if you have an MD from SC and are S.C.U.M. with an MD, and in residency I would start over.
Start over.
. You have no future in Luton. You have no future in Belize.
Your only future is defaulting on your loans and moving to Thailand and becoming a cheap you know what entertaining British men in country on "business"
You have no future in Africa!
For God's sake the campus is an outhouse, and the instructions are all in French!

PathOne
04-06-2006, 12:00 PM
Great post.

Minor correction: In many cases, US states recognize Canadian post graduate training and vice versa for purposes of licensure (though the Canadians require an additional year). Some US specialty boards will grant a year of credit for postgraduate training from certain countries for the purpose of board certification. However, that doesn't apply to full licensure, with one small exception: licensure by eminence in medicine or appointment to a US medical faculty. But, the point is otherwise valid.

Yes, thank you for the clarification. Also, it can sometimes be possible to get full recognition of US residency training in Europe. However, even in those instances, it's important to remember that it's not a RIGHT to get residency approved or gain licensure ANYWHERE in the world. The only exception is within the European Union, where licensure in certain specialties in one member state can give licensure in other member states. It's not fail-safe, but it generally works.

PathOne
04-06-2006, 12:09 PM
An opinion:

What little is really known about this entire saga is not much, although the readership tries it best to sort the chicken salad from the chicken ****. While it's possibly that mister "L" appears to be in posession of student transcripts, he holds these transcripts as a "lowly" college attached to the mother university in Senegal. Legally speaking, the mother University in Senegal owns these transcripts (unless some other legally binding arrangement was made), for if the mother university declares these credits/transcripts/memorandum of marks, as INVALID/ILLEGAL/FAKE or otherwise, all mister "L" might be holding is a bunch of printed paper with NO VALUE!!!!! (hint.......hint........I hope the M.I.R. are paying attention, allegedly, I just blurted out a solution they can use.).

Of course if some other legally binding arrangment was made, then the entire concept of ACADEMIA was trashed to being with. A lowly college (as allegedly structured in the SCCM-Senegal deal and as structured in every single REPUTABLE University the world over) , a college, is nothing more than a training center, dependent on the mother university.

So, if I was a M.I.R. , what would I do? Simple as pie in my imaginary scenario:

I would write the EFMGC , WHOz, Steak Medical Boards, etc.. and notify them, that the only legal and valid credits issued during the period of 2000 - 2006 are those that carry the letterhead, seal and signature of the REGISTRAR of the University in De-car, Senegol and that all confirmation requests must be sent directly to REGISTRAR'S office in DA-CAR, SENEGOL.

What would I do, if Senegol did not already have a detailed copy of my student file?

In my Hollywood T.V. example, my actor students, soley need to request a copy of their transcripts from mister "L", each student request for a copy of his or her transcripts should carry a CC (Carbon Copy) request to the following:

(a) Local Newspaper (b) CNN (c) Steak Medical Boards (d) Attorney (e) Sherrif's Office (f) BBC (g) etc......

Ahh, yes. But therein lies one of the many, many unsolved questions. Remember what FAIMER has noted in the IMED entry for St. Chris:


Notes (javascript:openwindow('imedinfo.html#notes','370' ,'292');) The medical college is affiliated with University El Hadj Ibrahima Niasse as of 2003; however, diplomas are awarded from St. Christopher's College of Medicine rather than the university.








So who REALLY holds the transcripts?

AUCMD2006
04-06-2006, 12:16 PM
so who are the MIR's? aside from the one figure head mentioned?

PathOne
04-06-2006, 12:26 PM
so who are the MIR's? aside from the one figure head mentioned?

So far shrouded not only in robes, but in secrecy. Just like the result of the NY State visit, the clinical rotations, the charter, the relationship - if any - between St. Chris Dakar and St. Chris Luton, the current activities of St. Chris Dakar, the ownership of the transcripts, the diploma-granting institution, the question of a charter since 2000, belonging to a university founded in 2003, and virtually any other issue related to St. Chris.

Don't hold your breath for a blue-ribbon group of Men in Robes who'll magically appear in London (with a layover, as there's not even direct flights between Dakar and the UK) and fix everything.

jpryor
04-06-2006, 12:44 PM
belonging to a university founded in 2003,

This is a clear example of people conjecturing and then belieiving thier own fantasies. Contrary to what MANY people have speculated, the term affilation does not mean ownership or reliance. People have assumed that an affiliation with a university that began in 2003 (the affilation, not the school) was to benefit St. Chris. The reality is that the affiliation was St. Chris assisting the university in its science curriculum.

PathOne
04-06-2006, 01:07 PM
This is a clear example of people conjecturing and then belieiving thier own fantasies. Contrary to what MANY people have speculated, the term affilation does not mean ownership or reliance. People have assumed that an affiliation with a university that began in 2003 (the affilation, not the school) was to benefit St. Chris. The reality is that the affiliation was St. Chris assisting the university in its science curriculum.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law), affiliation (from Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) ad-filiare, to adopt as a son) is the procedure by which the paternity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternity) of an illegitimate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimacy) child is determined, and the obligation of contributing to its support enforced. More modernly, it has also become a term to describe a partnership between two or more parties.


So who's the illegitimate child here?
Now, since Senegal doesn't really have soverign rights in the United Kingdom, they presumably can't charter a school based in another country. However, they CAN charter a school in their own country, and THAT school can have a sub-campus in another country.


Now, obviously, it would be nice to know to which university St. Chris was affiliated before 2003, when St. Chris according to IMED became affiliated to University El Hadj Ibrahima Niasse. Surely, that'll be easy to answer?


Anyway, you're entirely correct when you write that "term affilation does not mean ownership or reliance". Because, as of currently, Senegal has not acknowledged that St. Chris Luton has in fact been working under a charter. And the GMC has barred NOT ONLY grads from St. Chris Luton, but also from St. Chris Senegal.


Oh, what tangled web we weave.

jpryor
04-06-2006, 01:27 PM
Have fun with your exercises, but you're still going to have to speculate with everybody else. Unfortunately, VMD isn't on anybody's list as being significant.

CorporateRaider
04-06-2006, 01:30 PM
This is a clear example of people conjecturing and then belieiving thier own fantasies. Contrary to what MANY people have speculated, the term affilation does not mean ownership or reliance. People have assumed that an affiliation with a university that began in 2003 (the affilation, not the school) was to benefit St. Chris. The reality is that the affiliation was St. Chris assisting the university in its science curriculum.

Ok, let me see.



The Mother University is founded in Senegal Circa 2000 .
The Mother University develops a College of Medicine named St. Christopher's, first in the U.K. under the ownership of mister "L".
The Mother University then develops its own College of Medicine, in the year 2003 ?Am I right?

desai29
04-06-2006, 01:39 PM
"For those that St. Christopher IMD stay (i'm hoping people do now!!!)....read who St.Chris IMD is named after. This man is absolutely amazing (a medical saint of sorts). He's 87 years old and look at the things he's accomplished in his lifetime"

http://www.ias-worldwide.org/profiles/prof18.htm (http://www.ias-worldwide.org/profiles/prof18.htm)

PathOne
04-06-2006, 01:41 PM
Have fun with your exercises, but you're still going to have to speculate with everybody else. Unfortunately, VMD isn't on anybody's list as being significant.

Obviously not. Which is why you've spent time writing 1,133 posts.:rolleyes:

Oh, well, since your track record isn't that fabulous anyway, I'll just discount it. Also seem to remember that you were very sure that the problems would be resolved prior to the latest GMC ruling, and that you created an entire thread focused on berating a poster who (as it turned out) correctly wrote that the GMC would ban St. Chris....

I hope you have a day job. So far, your exercises are somewhat more imprecise and less factual than mine ;)

Picard
04-06-2006, 04:09 PM
Affiliation implies independence of the participating entity. Therefore, if SC-Luton is merely "affiliated" with the parent university in Senegal, this implies that SC-Luton is an independent entity from the parent university. Otherwise, it wouldn't be an "affiliation." Now, if SC-Luton is an independent entity from the Senegal parent university, then SC-Luton cannot claim charter from Senegal... because Senegal has no authority to grant charter to an independent college outside of it's borders, any more than it can grant charter to Cambridge University. The only way for Senegal to grant charter to SC-Luton is if SC-Luton is a "satelite," "subordinate" campus to the parent campus in Senegal, and under the direct control of the parent campus in Senegal -- even in this situation, the legitamcy of the charter can be called into question because it violates British sovereignty.

I believe there are only two ways SC-Luton can survive in any meaningful way in the near future -- close Luton campus and move everyone back to Senegal, the country of charter. Or, completely separate and disassociate from Senegal and seek British charter as a bona fide British medical school granting MBBS (or one of its variations) degrees. Anything else is just asking for trouble. ECFMG and GMC are the minimum/least of SC-Luton's problems. If a school cannot even achieve this very minimal/basic listing (not even acreditation), then it's in more trouble than the students realize.

As for the 87-year-old Professor IMD, yes, his credential and life-experiences are indeed impressive. But, that's not where SC has it's problems. SC's problems cannot be solved by having someone "famous" be the figure head. It's not that simple. Mario Andretti is an awesome driver. But even Mario cannot make a broken down 1985 Yugo with only 3 tires go anywhere.

P

pruritis_ani
04-06-2006, 08:40 PM
Obviously not. Which is why you've spent time writing 1,133 posts.:rolleyes:

Oh, well, since your track record isn't that fabulous anyway, I'll just discount it. Also seem to remember that you were very sure that the problems would be resolved prior to the latest GMC ruling, and that you created an entire thread focused on berating a poster who (as it turned out) correctly wrote that the GMC would ban St. Chris....

I hope you have a day job. So far, your exercises are somewhat more imprecise and less factual than mine ;)

I have been getting the same feeling about jpryor. A smart guy, obviously, seems to pull for the underdog a lot. But also seems to be a bit off in his predictions. So far we are still waiting for the SC predictions to pan out, but I also remember his predictions that FSMB and the individual states were going to be leaning away from "approved lists", such as the CA list, and his thoughts that licensing issues were not going to be such a big deal. Those predictions also seem to be off, with TX being downright tough, and with TN and NV firming up requirements.

I do find it surprising that he puts so much weight into the GMC/ECFMG status, when the other issues seem much more difficult to surmount. But, maybe there is some big surprise that will lift SC out of the muck, and infuse it with greatness! And maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt...

azskeptic
04-06-2006, 08:53 PM
I have been getting the same feeling about jpryor. A smart guy, obviously, seems to pull for the underdog a lot. But also seems to be a bit off in his predictions. So far we are still waiting for the SC predictions to pan out, but I also remember his predictions that FSMB and the individual states were going to be leaning away from "approved lists", such as the CA list, and his thoughts that licensing issues were not going to be such a big deal. Those predictions also seem to be off, with TX being downright tough, and with TN and NV firming up requirements.

I do find it surprising that he puts so much weight into the GMC/ECFMG status, when the other issues seem much more difficult to surmount. But, maybe there is some big surprise that will lift SC out of the muck, and infuse it with greatness! And maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt... Reminds me of a friend who told me that he was going to kick cancer of the throat. He talked positive, went to the gym, ate organic foods, took the radiation treatments,,etc,etc. but when the disease ran its course he died. Hope is what we turn to when things are bad and sometimes it isn't enough....sometimes it is. But as science/evidence based folks doctors/med students need to learn to separate fact from fiction. Because you say something enough, doesn't make it so. Results/ability to duplicate it does.

*offensive name*
04-07-2006, 07:41 PM
Reminds me of a friend who told me that he was going to kick cancer of the throat. He talked positive, went to the gym, ate organic foods, took the radiation treatments,,etc,etc. but when the disease ran its course he died. Hope is what we turn to when things are bad and sometimes it isn't enough....sometimes it is. But as science/evidence based folks doctors/med students need to learn to separate fact from fiction. Because you say something enough, doesn't make it so. Results/ability to duplicate it does.


Hey, skepic, I wish I would have known about you and listened to you instead of the [edit for flame] before I wasted my life and my money at this total sham. God I wish I had known about valuemd before I left. I never would have gone to St Chris. Now that I see this site I look at the posts from Neil C( great guy), skeptic ( great info ),teratos ( moderates with calss ), picard ( tells it like it is with tact), FLK ( tells it like it is the way a student needs to hear it. No ** and lies ) rrod ( same as FLK ) truthbetold ( God I wish I had seen these posts!) and SO MANY OTHERS
My only joy is that what goes around comes around [edit for flame] Funny I am going to start over at Ross and guess what [edit for insult] I will be a doctor, a little wiser for the lies you told me.

I HATE YOUR GUTS [edit for flame]

milos
04-07-2006, 07:51 PM
Hey, skepic, I wish I would have known about you and listened to you instead of the [edit for flame] before I wasted my life and my money at this total sham. God I wish I had known about valuemd before I left. I never would have gone to St Chris. Now that I see this site I look at the posts from Neil C( great guy), skeptic ( great info ),teratos ( moderates with calss ), picard ( tells it like it is with tact), FLK ( tells it like it is the way a student needs to hear it. No ** and lies ) rrod ( same as FLK ) truthbetold ( God I wish I had seen these posts!) and SO MANY OTHERS
My only joy is that what goes around comes around [edit for flame] Funny I am going to start over at Ross and guess what [edit for insult] I will be a doctor, a little wiser for the lies you told me.

I HATE YOUR GUTS [edit for flame]


Unfortunately, as the saying goes, "sticks and stones ..... but names will never harm" them.

You should hit these "varmints" where they hit you .... in the pocketbook.

-edit quote

stephew
04-07-2006, 09:59 PM
Folks, you are free to make your posts but within terms of use that is, no vulgar language, no proper names and no insults/flamming. further, threats are taken very seriously on this board. In the past the authories have been called in to deal with threats to individuals, and a student's school admin can become involved.

milos
04-07-2006, 10:10 PM
Folks, you are free to make your posts but within terms of use that is, no vulgar language, no proper names and no insults/flamming. further, threats are taken very seriously on this board. In the past the authories have been called in to deal with threats to individuals, and a student's school admin can become involved.

Am I missing something? Where are the "threats"? (Unless its been edited out already).







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