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jasmine28
04-01-2006, 07:33 PM
I'm a Canadian undergraduate student who is looking at International Med Schools as a back up plan. I went to the St.Chris webpage and the University looks pretty good, however, I've been reading all these posts about how the school is going to shut down soon/there is something wrong with the administration.....could someone please explain to me the state of the school right now and what is going on exactly? Any info would be appreciated, thank you.

apr 1/06

OLDPRO
04-01-2006, 07:47 PM
I'm a Canadian undergraduate student who is looking at International Med Schools as a back up plan. I went to the St.Chris webpage and the University looks pretty good, however, I've been reading all these posts about how the school is going to shut down soon/there is something wrong with the administration.....could someone please explain to me the state of the school right now and what is going on exactly? Any info would be appreciated, thank you.

apr 1/06

This is way too complicated, you need to read the announcements about the school here in the other threads. I'm locking this thread for obvious reasons.

The two sticky threads about St. Chris merger and the Statement thread will tell you the whole story. Please read carefully.

billiam
04-03-2006, 11:21 PM
What an instance this is. I am in my third year with St. Christopher's, and I've followed this board loosely since before matriculation, and closely since everything blew up. Before any or all of you assume that I have one bias or another, let me be clear in my position. I want to take step 2 this summer and match next year. I am on the side of whoever can prove right now that they can clear my path.

I want to summarize my understanding of what's going on in the hopes that this will open some communication between myself and the the various opposing factions. So much depends on taking a good history. For example, we know that careful questioning can help reveal that chest pain is more likely anginal vs gastritis. So far, I feel like I'm trying to get the information from a patient strung out on crack - there are lots of words coming out, but the substantive truth is elusive. This is an invitation to any of the players please to explain carefully and in great detail.

Since the only perspective I have is the one I've had to piece together, I'll explain this story as it has unfolded to me.

The first piece of objective information I received that signalled something amiss was a letter from the ECFMG placing on hold step 2 application I sent in to them in January. In it, they claimed to be awaiting documentation from Senegal confirming the affiliation we have had with Senegal. The explanations came back variably. Some people said this was a minor processing issue, and that the Senegalese had bigger problems to deal with, and that they'd send in the confirmation just as soon as they got room to breath for a second. Some people said that Senegal had been somehow wronged by members of the SCCM LLC, and were refusing to cooperate in accrediting our campus until the offending individuals were deposed. Still others said that the Senegalese were effectively holding our credits hostage in a power move with obvious gain. It seems to me reasonably important which of these cases most closely approximates the truth.

About ten minutes later, I found out that there was a whole series of legal actions taken by students to protect us. I have read probably ten explanations why, but I still have absolutely no understanding of what necessitated these actions. I heard words like "liar" etc., but I couldn't find any direct link to what that meant with, say, the ECFMG. Some people said you were heros saving our collective butts, and others said you were making it impossible to reconcile matters. I also heard specific names of students who were involved, and forgive me guys, I don't know any of you very well, and you haven't told me what you're doing or why with any clarity. It matters a great deal why you did what you did.

It wasn't very long before I learned that the school was destined to split into two separate entities, which was confirmed, I guess, by the announced merger with MUA. By the way, I thought this was really good news when I heard it. Maybe I still do, who knows. I thought it sounded good not to have my credits held hostage with a country who refuses to confirm our status with ECFMG. Forgive me Senegal, if I'm wrong, and I'm trying to keep an open mind, but this thought crossed my mind. Anyway, then I hear that the ECFMG will never, under any circumstances, recognise the merged MUA/SCCM entity. I don't know who said that or what authority they have, but there it is. What if that's true? That would make things pretty clear. It matters who are the sources of these opposing ideas.

There are about a million other questions and comments that I have, but this is getting long, so let me try to conclude.

There are the Senegalese, the SCCM LLC bunch, and the mobilized students. So far, not one of these parties has communicated to me anything close to a proper explanation. I'll say it again, because I think it's important, and I'll capitalize all the letters. NOT ONE.

It's clear to me that sides are being taken, and everything depends on us individually making right choices, and it is utterly unfair that we can't have the available information.

I don't know what else to say, so I'll stop.

pruritis_ani
04-03-2006, 11:40 PM
I think you answered your own question, in a way.

You have been screwed over by people involved in both of these factions. Both Mr L and the Senegalese have hung you out to dry to further line their pockets. That much should be obvious by now.

I think the real answer lies in whether you want to continue to align yourelf with a school such as this, and whether you really believe that either of these schools will be recognized by ECFMG.

My advice: cut your losses, run to another school and start over. Do 18 months of basic science somewhere that will still be around when you actually finish. Let other people try to sort through the pile of doo doo that is the current SC.

Your obligation is to yourself. Is the risk of another wasted year worth the SC degree at the end? It seems crazy to risk another years worth of money on what look like pretty long odds at this point. Repeating any class would suck, not to mention 2+ years, but that seems a lot better than having to repeat all 4 years to me. Especially when you consider that even in a best case scenario, an SC degree still has a strong likelihood of not getting you a license in many states. After all of this, to be further limited to working in just a few, desperate states doesn't seem like much of a reward for your hard work.

Best of luck. Hope you make a good choice and it works out better this time

milos
04-03-2006, 11:55 PM
Allow me to summarize your options, as I see them.

1. Mr. L's new SC/MUA-Belize. The obvious problem is that this new entity cannot "retroactively" charter SC from 2000 - March 2006. In fact, I don't even think they are attempting that. Even the sly Mr. L seems to know this is too much of a stretch and has made no claims of retroactive or backdating the charter to include SC's existence over the last several years.

2. Senegal's "new" SC. The problem here is that nobody knows whether this group will be able to convince the ECFMG that SC was actually chartered during the past 6 years or so. They have, thus far, withheld confirming the charter when asked to do so by the GMC and ECFMG. Whether this new group can suddenly go to the ECFMG and say, "hey sorry for the delay, but SC has actually been properly chartered since 2000 from Senegal -- we just delayed telling you and the GMC because we wanted to get rid of this sleazy guy named Mr. L." Will the ECFMG buy this? We shall soon see. If this works out, since you are a 3rd year student and do not want to think you wasted all this time and money, then this may be your best bet. But, of course, you may still have difficulty when it comes to getting a permanent license. Will you be able to get an unrestricted license given the history of SC?

3. Start over at a new school like SGU. This would clearly be your safest bet to get a permanent license, but I can see that its not very appealing to a 3rd year student who has passed Step 1.

4. Transfer to a new school and receive advanced standing using SC credits. A few Caribbean schools may permit this, most notably St. Martinus and IAU. But, having 3 years of credits from an unchartered (as of now) school would very likely get you disqualified from reaching your ultimate goal.

5. Kill Mr. L and his cheerleaders for bringing this upon you. Depending on the states in which you commit this crime, you would end up with either the death penalty or multiple life sentences. Perhaps, you could complete your clinical rotations at the prison hospital. Knowing SC, it would give you credit for this and you can graduate with your degree. Of course, you would not be able to get a license to practice medicine, although you could tell other prisoners you are a doctor and tend to prisoners injured in fights, etc.

These are your choices as I see them. Perhaps others can expand on them or offer other alternatives.


What an instance this is. I am in my third year with St. Christopher's, and I've followed this board loosely since before matriculation, and closely since everything blew up. Before any or all of you assume that I have one bias or another, let me be clear in my position. I want to take step 2 this summer and match next year. I am on the side of whoever can prove right now that they can clear my path.

I want to summarize my understanding of what's going on in the hopes that this will open some communication between myself and the the various opposing factions. So much depends on taking a good history. For example, we know that careful questioning can help reveal that chest pain is more likely anginal vs gastritis. So far, I feel like I'm trying to get the information from a patient strung out on crack - there are lots of words coming out, but the substantive truth is elusive. This is an invitation to any of the players please to explain carefully and in great detail.

Since the only perspective I have is the one I've had to piece together, I'll explain this story as it has unfolded to me.

The first piece of objective information I received that signalled something amiss was a letter from the ECFMG placing on hold step 2 application I sent in to them in January. In it, they claimed to be awaiting documentation from Senegal confirming the affiliation we have had with Senegal. The explanations came back variably. Some people said this was a minor processing issue, and that the Senegalese had bigger problems to deal with, and that they'd send in the confirmation just as soon as they got room to breath for a second. Some people said that Senegal had been somehow wronged by members of the SCCM LLC, and were refusing to cooperate in accrediting our campus until the offending individuals were deposed. Still others said that the Senegalese were effectively holding our credits hostage in a power move with obvious gain. It seems to me reasonably important which of these cases most closely approximates the truth.

About ten minutes later, I found out that there was a whole series of legal actions taken by students to protect us. I have read probably ten explanations why, but I still have absolutely no understanding of what necessitated these actions. I heard words like "liar" etc., but I couldn't find any direct link to what that meant with, say, the ECFMG. Some people said you were heros saving our collective butts, and others said you were making it impossible to reconcile matters. I also heard specific names of students who were involved, and forgive me guys, I don't know any of you very well, and you haven't told me what you're doing or why with any clarity. It matters a great deal why you did what you did.

It wasn't very long before I learned that the school was destined to split into two separate entities, which was confirmed, I guess, by the announced merger with MUA. By the way, I thought this was really good news when I heard it. Maybe I still do, who knows. I thought it sounded good not to have my credits held hostage with a country who refuses to confirm our status with ECFMG. Forgive me Senegal, if I'm wrong, and I'm trying to keep an open mind, but this thought crossed my mind. Anyway, then I hear that the ECFMG will never, under any circumstances, recognise the merged MUA/SCCM entity. I don't know who said that or what authority they have, but there it is. What if that's true? That would make things pretty clear. It matters who are the sources of these opposing ideas.

There are about a million other questions and comments that I have, but this is getting long, so let me try to conclude.

There are the Senegalese, the SCCM LLC bunch, and the mobilized students. So far, not one of these parties has communicated to me anything close to a proper explanation. I'll say it again, because I think it's important, and I'll capitalize all the letters. NOT ONE.

It's clear to me that sides are being taken, and everything depends on us individually making right choices, and it is utterly unfair that we can't have the available information.

I don't know what else to say, so I'll stop.

CorporateRaider
04-04-2006, 08:28 AM
Actually , the more I study the case from an outside perspective, the more I think the solution (sans legalities) is easy.

1. St. Christopher's College of Medicine version "Lay-oh-Knee" a.k.a. Mister "L" existed as an affiliate of a University from Senegal. This was/is confirmed by the annotation by the IMED DIRECTORY that reads:


"The medical college is affiliated with University El Hadj Ibrahima Niasse as of 2003; however, diplomas are awarded from St. Christopher's College of Medicine rather than the university."


At some point in time, the ECFMG must have obtained some type of written confirmation as to the accreditation status of SCCM-Luton.


2. Add in those students that have already sat for USMLE STEP 1, STEP 2 and are actually in the process of obtaining Licensure and we can reasonable conclude that SCCM-Luton at one time , enjoyed, the privledge of accreditation via affiliation.


3. Should the government of Senegal negate the affiliation of the SCCM-Luton campus, it would need to specify a date. Let's take a peek:


Confirmation date of affiliation: from: xx of January 2000 - xx of March 200x


Remember chappies, we are speaking of THE GOVERNMENT OF SENEGAL needs to do this, not the "Men in Robes" (as AZ calls them).
This point, number three, is in my opinion the trickest of the bunch. Why? Again, as a matter of opinion (based on zero facts). How do the Senegalese "Men in Robes" or (M.I.R.) , negate the SCCM-Luton affiliation without harming the students? M.I.R. wanted to wrestle away control of the Luton operations from "LAY-O-KNEE" , and the control of the Charter was the only way to do it.


If the government of Senegal does not confirm the validty of the Luton operations during the affiliation period, both "LAY-O-KNEE" and M.I.R. are in hot water; although , I would dare to speculate that "LAY-O-KNEE" would carry the brunt of the responsibility, since he appears to own the SCCM-LLC outright.


Where do the students stand? By law (in my part of the world), the mother university is the owner of the charter, thus it is the owner of the actions ,awards, credits, etc.... undertaken while on campus of the affiliate. The examination body is the College, but the Degree awarding body is the University, that validates the studying and examination done on the affiliate campus. Again, by law (in my part of the world), the college would not, under any circumstance be legally able to award a degree (even under affiliation). The College would be obligated to present all credits (memorandum of marks), student files, sworn statement by the Dean, etc... to the University, and the University being the actual Degree awarding body, would proceed to accept, deny or even demand that the student must sit for examinations before any Degree is awarded by the University. Of course the Degree may read: the College of Medicine SCCM , affiliated to USEM , hereby awards the DEGREE of xxxxxx, etc, etc, etc......


My opinon continues as; if the government of Senegal confirms the affiliation between SCCM-Luton and the Mother University in Senegal, during the periods between X and X, then all credits issued during this period are valid. (I have my doubts about the validty of the degree's since it is educational protocol that degree's awarded should come from the MOTHER UNIVERSITY) of course the best thing to do is to refer to the internal by-law's that the Mother University filed with the Ministry of Education of Senegal during its creation. If the Internal by-law's allow the creation of afilliate's and the ultimate authority on the issuance of Degree's lies with whom?

Now simply put, the Mother University has decided to not re-new the affiliation agreement as of INSERT DATE HERE, thus students simply continue their studies directly with the Mother University; independent of which name the mother university has. From the begining , I told you that (according to my opinon) a College affiliate has ZERO legal authority to award degree's; this is the sole responsibilty of the mother University, the same with the validation of the MEMORANDUM OF MARKS (credits / transcripts). This results in students that decide to stay with the Mother University are not transferring into a "new school", because this "new school" is actually the continuation of the authority of the mother university. The mother university is not new. Given, the legal structure given to the U.K. operations on paper shall be new, but its the same Mother University.


more to come..................................

CorporateRaider
04-04-2006, 09:04 AM
The Empire strikes back....................

Cont. page 1.


..............As far as what is best to do, that is a total personal perception of your reality.

My opinion is that if the M.I.R. obtain validation for the new U.K. operations, then students (more so the advanced students) should stick with the mother university in Senegal. I am basing my opinons on the idea that students want to stay in England one way or the other.

Why stay with the Mother University (IF THEY OBTAIN VALIDATION)??

Simply because it is not a NEW SCHOOL, it is best to initiate and conclude one's education with one entity, instead of hop-scotching around the globe.

Now's lets do an epicrisis:

SCCM-Luton was domiciled (under charter protection) in Senegal. Allegedly it has moved to Belize. MUA BELIZE/SCCM is a 100% neo-nate , new born entity, no matter who wants to paint a different picture.
Students will have to TRANSFER their credits from SCCM-Luton/Senegal into MUA/SCCM-Luton/Belize. MUA BELIZE as the holder of the charter needs to issue each and every student that decides to go with this option a new set of transcripts that recognize your accomplisments while under the Senegal Charter. Do not settle for less.

I have always been hesitant of schools that accept's any and all credits you bring , PRIMA FASCIA. Notice that St. George's will accept credits on a case by case basis only. This is how serious academic entities operate. Nothing is done PRIMA FASCIA.

As to your original pondering of which is the best crew to cast your lot with or who is to blame for all of this?

This is a classic case of what came first, the chick or the egg?

The best thing to do is to request a "sit down" with the student body leadership and ask them to explain to you what is going on. If they don't have the time, then you might want to e-mail them. Always request everything in writing.

Compare what you are told with what you have observed. Mom and Dad are usually a good place to start to look for advice.

While these boards are despised by some, they are good to follow, to find out which way the wind is blowing.

azskeptic
04-04-2006, 09:13 AM
Your thoughts are well spoken. THe problem is that with all of the litigation going on my guess is that the control of the transcripts is going to be the key. If the MIR get control that would seal it for me but it is in court I am told so could be a while to settle out. In other words, watch the transcripts as that is where the power rests.

angel_fyre
04-04-2006, 09:41 AM
Allow me to summarize your options, as I see them.

5. Kill Mr. L and his cheerleaders for bringing this upon you. Depending on the states in which you commit this crime, you would end up with either the death penalty or multiple life sentences. Perhaps, you could complete your clinical rotations at the prison hospital. Knowing SC, it would give you credit for this and you can graduate with your degree. Of course, you would not be able to get a license to practice medicine, although you could tell other prisoners you are a doctor and tend to prisoners injured in fights, etc.

These are your choices as I see them. Perhaps others can expand on them or offer other alternatives.

To tell you the truth this is the only option that makes sence right now, i would serioulsy think about taking this one:mad:

TAFKA
04-04-2006, 11:16 AM
edited to remove text

azskeptic
04-04-2006, 11:23 AM
This is the crux of the issue... fortunately, "this new group" (some of whom are actually the initial players from the Dakar venture) decided to have this discussion 1-2 weeks ago, even before they were ready to validate the coursework/charter... they (in my opinion correctly) thought that it would lend validity to their cause to open lines of communication with the ECFMG early so there would never be a time when it appeared that they urgently needed ECFMG approval and so were finally willing to open discussions.

On a side note, it is my belief that the best outcome will result from the student body trying to remain unified and "vote" with our tuition dollars... my vote is for the school I've been enrolled in since 2003, St. Chris Iba Mar Diop. When the GMC tried to verify that the school you were attending, SC, was part of Iba Mar Diop they were unable to verify it via diplomatic channels; the same thing happened to the ECFMG. I have seen many students now start spouting that you are part of Iba Mar Dip but to be honest the degrees that were given by your L. owned school didn't say so and in fact the school reported to IMED that they were giving the diplomas, not the university. It isn't possible to change history that fast and that will be the crux of the problem. Lets hope that there is some way that a resolution can be worked out between your original college, the new Diop school, and the various regulatory agencies.

TAFKA
04-04-2006, 11:30 AM
edited to remove text

teratos
04-04-2006, 11:33 AM
Iba Mar Diop was the bottleneck before... they refused to verify to these "diplomatic channels" that there was oversight as part of the plan to overthrow PL. I think that the same diplomatic channels can now or will shortly be able to confirm the oversight that has been taking place for several years.

If they wouldn't before, wouldn't it look funnny if they suddenly verified everything now that they have a financial stake? G

azskeptic
04-04-2006, 11:33 AM
Iba Mar Diop was the bottleneck before... they refused to verify to these "diplomatic channels" that there was oversight as part of the plan to overthrow PL. I think that the same diplomatic channels can now or will shortly be able to confirm the oversight that has been taking place for several years. So lets say they decide they don't approve of a student; will they refuse to provide info on them? This is a serious allegation; if they were plotting to overthrow L., who was allegedly their partner, they can't be trusted. Amazing and dangerous for students. Beware of the Men In Robes.

AUCMD2006
04-04-2006, 11:36 AM
This is the crux of the issue... fortunately, "this new group" (some of whom are actually the initial players from the Dakar venture) decided to have this discussion 1-2 weeks ago, even before they were ready to validate the coursework/charter... they (in my opinion correctly) thought that it would lend validity to their cause to open lines of communication with the ECFMG early so there would never be a time when it appeared that they urgently needed ECFMG approval and so were finally willing to open discussions.

On a side note, it is my belief that the best outcome will result from the student body trying to remain unified and "vote" with our tuition dollars... my vote is for the school I've been enrolled in since 2003, St. Chris Iba Mar Diop.

that is reasonable for 3rd and 4th years to try and wait it out. i don't think as a 1st or second that choice would be so clear cut. obviously if you were rejected from other schools this maybe your one shot but if you have other options as a 1st year would you recommend they either wait to see what happens and not attend this semester or go to another school?

this is a mess. for those done with clinicals like bts and tafka the choice is that much easier because all they gotta do is sit back and try not to drink themsleves silly while this goes down but those in clinicals what will happen to the rotations? does SC imba diop mar have 500 clinical slots lined up? meaning aren't the clinical slots part of SCMUAB because they were set up through king pin? or are the coveted "ivy league" spots part of the school in senegal? no one has answered this part yet?

azskeptic
04-04-2006, 11:38 AM
This is the crux of the issue... fortunately, "this new group" (some of whom are actually the initial players from the Dakar venture) decided to have this discussion 1-2 weeks ago, even before they were ready to validate the coursework/charter... they (in my opinion correctly) thought that it would lend validity to their cause to open lines of communication with the ECFMG early so there would never be a time when it appeared that they urgently needed ECFMG approval and so were finally willing to open discussions.

On a side note, it is my belief that the best outcome will result from the student body trying to remain unified and "vote" with our tuition dollars... my vote is for the school I've been enrolled in since 2003, St. Chris Iba Mar Diop.

that is reasonable for 3rd and 4th years to try and wait it out. i don't think as a 1st or second that choice would be so clear cut. obviously if you were rejected from other schools this maybe your one shot but if you have other options as a 1st year would you recommend they either wait to see what happens and not attend this semester or go to another school?

this is a mess. for those done with clinicals like bts and tafka the choice is that much easier because all they gotta do is sit back and try not to drink themsleves silly while this goes down but those in clinicals what will happen to the rotations? does SC imba diop mar have 500 clinical slots lined up? meaning aren't the clinical slots part of SCMUAB because they were set up through king pin? or are the coveted "ivy league" spots part of the school in senegal? no one has answered this part yet? There is something fishy here.....real medical schools don't do such things. What is real?

AUCMD2006
04-04-2006, 11:39 AM
So lets say they decide they don't approve of a student; will they refuse to provide info on them? This is a serious allegation; if they were plotting to overthrow L., who was allegedly their partner, they can't be trusted. Amazing and dangerous for students. Beware of the Men In Robes.


they are going from one set of conmen to another but those in 4th year really have little choice other than starting over again and that is just a hard pill to swallow specially if you have advocated for this place the last few years of your life.. what a waste it would be to have gotten so involved with a place and only have a luxury house in florida for the owner to show for it

TAFKA
04-04-2006, 11:40 AM
edited to remove text

angel_fyre
04-04-2006, 11:40 AM
When the GMC tried to verify that the school you were attending, SC, was part of Iba Mar Diop they were unable to verify it via diplomatic channels; the same thing happened to the ECFMG. I have seen many students now start spouting that you are part of Iba Mar Dip but to be honest the degrees that were given by your L. owned school didn't say so and in fact the school reported to IMED that they were giving the diplomas, not the university. It isn't possible to change history that fast and that will be the crux of the problem. Lets hope that there is some way that a resolution can be worked out between your original college, the new Diop school, and the various regulatory agencies.

Correct me if i am wrong, but SCCM-Luton cannot be the granters of the MD because they are not the mother university, so degree granting authority cannot be from SCCM-Luton is HAS to be from the main University in Senegal? so why would Dr.L and his SCCM-Luton report to IMED that they were giving the diplomas? did SCCM-Senegal even know this was occuring? before a degree is issued dose the charter country not have to evaluate every single individual and there knowlege before they issue them an MD, i dont think this was happening in Luton?

azskeptic
04-04-2006, 11:58 AM
if you decide to go with the "We are actually part of the xxxx school in Senegal" remember that this school didn't start until 2003...what happens to the folks that went to school since 1998 or 2000?

review the article by the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4410020.stm

empathy
04-04-2006, 12:29 PM
didn't one, the Russian, become a surgeon in an NHS Hosp.? He was given a St. Chris degree and didn't attend the college for very long. He has since, no doubt, been asked to leave the hospital. I wonder what he had to say to the GMC and the fraud patrol unit.


if you decide to go with the "We are actually part of the xxxx school in Senegal" remember that this school didn't start until 2003...what happens to the folks that went to school since 1998 or 2000?

review the article by the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4410020.stm

maximillian genossa
04-04-2006, 12:47 PM
The key issue here, as I see it, are there any "internal by-law's that the Mother University filed with the Ministry of Education of Senegal during its creation. If the Internal by-law's allow the creation of afilliate's and the ultimate authority on the issuance of Degree's lies with whom?"

My guess is that a positive answer for this question will make life a lot easier for the students.





Actually , the more I study the case from an outside perspective, the more I think the solution (sans legalities) is easy.

1. St. Christopher's College of Medicine version "Lay-oh-Knee" a.k.a. Mister "L" existed as an affiliate of a University from Senegal. This was/is confirmed by the annotation by the IMED DIRECTORY that reads:


"The medical college is affiliated with University El Hadj Ibrahima Niasse as of 2003; however, diplomas are awarded from St. Christopher's College of Medicine rather than the university."


At some point in time, the ECFMG must have obtained some type of written confirmation as to the accreditation status of SCCM-Luton.


2. Add in those students that have already sat for USMLE STEP 1, STEP 2 and are actually in the process of obtaining Licensure and we can reasonable conclude that SCCM-Luton at one time , enjoyed, the privledge of accreditation via affiliation.


3. Should the government of Senegal negate the affiliation of the SCCM-Luton campus, it would need to specify a date. Let's take a peek:


Confirmation date of affiliation: from: xx of January 2000 - xx of March 200x


Remember chappies, we are speaking of THE GOVERNMENT OF SENEGAL needs to do this, not the "Men in Robes" (as AZ calls them).
This point, number three, is in my opinion the trickest of the bunch. Why? Again, as a matter of opinion (based on zero facts). How do the Senegalese "Men in Robes" or (M.I.R.) , negate the SCCM-Luton affiliation without harming the students? M.I.R. wanted to wrestle away control of the Luton operations from "LAY-O-KNEE" , and the control of the Charter was the only way to do it.


If the government of Senegal does not confirm the validty of the Luton operations during the affiliation period, both "LAY-O-KNEE" and M.I.R. are in hot water; although , I would dare to speculate that "LAY-O-KNEE" would carry the brunt of the responsibility, since he appears to own the SCCM-LLC outright.


Where do the students stand? By law (in my part of the world), the mother university is the owner of the charter, thus it is the owner of the actions ,awards, credits, etc.... undertaken while on campus of the affiliate. The examination body is the College, but the Degree awarding body is the University, that validates the studying and examination done on the affiliate campus. Again, by law (in my part of the world), the college would not, under any circumstance be legally able to award a degree (even under affiliation). The College would be obligated to present all credits (memorandum of marks), student files, sworn statement by the Dean, etc... to the University, and the University being the actual Degree awarding body, would proceed to accept, deny or even demand that the student must sit for examinations before any Degree is awarded by the University. Of course the Degree may read: the College of Medicine SCCM , affiliated to USEM , hereby awards the DEGREE of xxxxxx, etc, etc, etc......


My opinon continues as; if the government of Senegal confirms the affiliation between SCCM-Luton and the Mother University in Senegal, during the periods between X and X, then all credits issued during this period are valid. (I have my doubts about the validty of the degree's since it is educational protocol that degree's awarded should come from the MOTHER UNIVERSITY) of course the best thing to do is to refer to the internal by-law's that the Mother University filed with the Ministry of Education of Senegal during its creation. If the Internal by-law's allow the creation of afilliate's and the ultimate authority on the issuance of Degree's lies with whom?


Now simply put, the Mother University has decided to not re-new the affiliation agreement as of INSERT DATE HERE, thus students simply continue their studies directly with the Mother University; independent of which name the mother university has. From the begining , I told you that (according to my opinon) a College affiliate has ZERO legal authority to award degree's; this is the sole responsibilty of the mother University, the same with the validation of the MEMORANDUM OF MARKS (credits / transcripts). This results in students that decide to stay with the Mother University are not transferring into a "new school", because this "new school" is actually the continuation of the authority of the mother university. The mother university is not new. Given, the legal structure given to the U.K. operations on paper shall be new, but its the same Mother University.



more to come..................................

azskeptic
04-04-2006, 01:28 PM
How did the 7pm meeting in England go with the new management from Belize and students?

CorporateRaider
04-04-2006, 02:50 PM
Angel_frye and Company:

According to GAAP standards, you are right. A college is the extension of the main body, thus it is dependent upon the Mother University. How can I conclude that I might be right on my suspicions?

MUA-BELIZE !

That's right my dear chappies, why would "Lay-o-knee" go out and seek affiliations under any rock, if my exegesis does not hold water?

Now here is one for the "Credentialization" crowd.

A University cannot simply do whatever it pleases once it has obtained accreditation. Every University (serious ones) have by-law's, internal rules and regulations, student handbooks, faculty handbooks, promotion schedules, etc.... We need to take a peek and see what was filed by the Mother University of Senegal with the Senegal Ministry of Higher Education. Does it read anything about affiliations? How are they created? Administrated? Dissolved? In all of my years of working around accreditation commissions, I have never once heard of a University giving up its SACRED RIGHT to grant degree's to a lesser body (the college would be a lesser body); folks , the real deals just don't do this !

But hold up (as Genossa will tell you, he is a lawyer as well), just because a University has filed its by-laws with the Ministry of Education, does not mean that these by laws are not in conflict with "THE LAW". Internal by law's cannot supercede "THE LAW"; i.e. :

1.1 Our university will not enroll people/persons that have cat's as a household pet.

The above would be a form of discrimination and by "THE LAW" , would be unacceptable, even if the University wrote it, into its by law's and somehow or another the auditors of the Ministry of Education overlooked them.
Now, hold up, a whole new can of worms are opened by all of this. Ready for a basic precept in Law?

As a citizen, I can do anything that the law does not expressly forbid me to do.

But

As a Government official, I can only do what the law expressly allows me to do.

How do we apply this to the situation at hand?

O.k., say for example, I am the Minister of Education of Yahooland. If you request that the Ministry of Education recognizes your campus outside of Yahooland, then such a request has to be founded in the law of Higher Education. Even as the Minister, I cannot just write a letter saying:

"So-and-so, with a campus in fruitcakeland has recognition from this office".

The Minister of Education cannot do anything that is not written in the law. Does the law of Higher Education allow recognition of a foreign campus? It has to be expressly written in the law for the Minister to legally write such a letter. In layman's terms, the Minister cannot simply make things up as he goes along.

As most of us are aware of, the laws of a Country "X" ( in my example, YAHOOLAND) only sort effect within the borders of our country. The Secretary of Education of the United States has authority within the United States, but he could not for example, dictate policy in Mexico and expect the Mexican's to comply.

So, when the Minister of Higher Education of Belize, wrote a letter "giving recognition" to the MUA-BELIZE subcampus in England, he did so without taking into account that such an action may be in conflict with the law(s) of the U.K., and in the U.K., Belize has zero authority.

But beyond that, is it written into the law(s) of Belize ,that recognition, can transend borders? I would like someone to cite specific references to this.

Anyone?






Correct me if i am wrong, but SCCM-Luton cannot be the granters of the MD because they are not the mother university, so degree granting authority cannot be from SCCM-Luton is HAS to be from the main University in Senegal? so why would Dr.L and his SCCM-Luton report to IMED that they were giving the diplomas? did SCCM-Senegal even know this was occuring? before a degree is issued dose the charter country not have to evaluate every single individual and there knowlege before they issue them an MD, i dont think this was happening in Luton?

milos
04-04-2006, 03:21 PM
if you decide to go with the "We are actually part of the xxxx school in Senegal" remember that this school didn't start until 2003...what happens to the folks that went to school since 1998 or 2000?


Ummmm, I believe that both BTS and MTT have St. Chris "credits" from before January 2003 (in other words, from 2002). Even if your savior, "Iba Mar Diop", is able to con the ECFMG (which I highly doubt), why don't you two fine young gentlemen tell us how you're going get out of this one?

As I said before, there is something very satisfying about seeing a man get what's coming to him.

empathy
04-04-2006, 03:43 PM
Why would the ECFMG put themselves in the position of having to defend a decision which allowed students from a school that opened without a charter to sit for exams? BTS and MTT should trans. and redo these credits.


Ummmm, I believe that both BTS and MTT have St. Chris "credits" from before January 2003 (in other words, from 2002). Even if your savior, "Iba Mar Diop", is able to con the ECFMG (which I highly doubt), why don't you two fine young gentlemen tell us how you're going get out of this one?

As I said before, there is something very satisfying about seeing a man get what's coming to him.

CorporateRaider
04-04-2006, 04:17 PM
ECFMG is one of the biggest rubber stamps in history.

CorporateRaider
04-04-2006, 04:38 PM
From answers.com

Universities and colleges

In relation to universities, the term college normally refers to a part of the university which does not have degree-awarding powers in itself. Degrees are always awarded by universities, colleges are institutions or organisations which prepare students for the degree.

http://www.answers.com/topic/college


From the dept. of education & skills - U.K.:

"There are also over 550 colleges and other institutions which do not have degree awarding powers but provide courses leading to degrees. Courses at these institutions are validated by institutions which have degree awarding powers."

http://www.dfes.gov.uk/recognisedukdegrees/annex4.shtml

Notice the word "university" appears on most of the list:
Sample list:

University of Aberdeen
University of Abertay Dundee
Anglia Ruskin University
The Archbishop of Canterbury
University of the Arts, London
Aston University

University of Bath
Bath Spa University
University of Birmingham
Bournemouth University
The University of Bolton
University of Bradford

University of Keele
University of Kent
Kingston University


Angel_frye and Company:

According to GAAP standards, you are right. A college is the extension of the main body, thus it is dependent upon the Mother University. How can I conclude that I might be right on my suspicions?

MUA-BELIZE !

That's right my dear chappies, why would "Lay-o-knee" go out and seek affiliations under any rock, if my exegesis does not hold water?

Now here is one for the "Credentialization" crowd.

A University cannot simply do whatever it pleases once it has obtained accreditation. Every University (serious ones) have by-law's, internal rules and regulations, student handbooks, faculty handbooks, promotion schedules, etc.... We need to take a peek and see what was filed by the Mother University of Senegal with the Senegal Ministry of Higher Education. Does it read anything about affiliations? How are they created? Administrated? Dissolved? In all of my years of working around accreditation commissions, I have never once heard of a University giving up its SACRED RIGHT to grant degree's to a lesser body (the college would be a lesser body); folks , the real deals just don't do this !

But hold up (as Genossa will tell you, he is a lawyer as well), just because a University has filed its by-laws with the Ministry of Education, does not mean that these by laws are not in conflict with "THE LAW". Internal by law's cannot supercede "THE LAW"; i.e. :

1.1 Our university will not enroll people/persons that have cat's as a household pet.

The above would be a form of discrimination and by "THE LAW" , would be unacceptable, even if the University wrote it, into its by law's and somehow or another the auditors of the Ministry of Education overlooked them.
Now, hold up, a whole new can of worms are opened by all of this. Ready for a basic precept in Law?

As a citizen, I can do anything that the law does not expressly forbid me to do.

But

As a Government official, I can only do what the law expressly allows me to do.

How do we apply this to the situation at hand?

O.k., say for example, I am the Minister of Education of Yahooland. If you request that the Ministry of Education recognizes your campus outside of Yahooland, then such a request has to be founded in the law of Higher Education. Even as the Minister, I cannot just write a letter saying:

"So-and-so, with a campus in fruitcakeland has recognition from this office".

The Minister of Education cannot do anything that is not written in the law. Does the law of Higher Education allow recognition of a foreign campus? It has to be expressly written in the law for the Minister to legally write such a letter. In layman's terms, the Minister cannot simply make things up as he goes along.

As most of us are aware of, the laws of a Country "X" ( in my example, YAHOOLAND) only sort effect within the borders of our country. The Secretary of Education of the United States has authority within the United States, but he could not for example, dictate policy in Mexico and expect the Mexican's to comply.

So, when the Minister of Higher Education of Belize, wrote a letter "giving recognition" to the MUA-BELIZE subcampus in England, he did so without taking into account that such an action may be in conflict with the law(s) of the U.K., and in the U.K., Belize has zero authority.

But beyond that, is it written into the law(s) of Belize ,that recognition, can transend borders? I would like someone to cite specific references to this.

Anyone?

milos
04-04-2006, 04:38 PM
Why would the ECFMG put themselves in the position of having to defend a decision which allowed students from a school that opened without a charter to sit for exams? BTS and MTT should trans. and redo these credits.

You won't get an argument from me, empathy .

Hear that, BTS and MTT? Start packin' your bags and get ready for Grenada! If you need help with anatomy, histo or cell bio, give me a call and I'll be happy to tutor you guys.

handsomeroses100
04-04-2006, 05:02 PM
my people.a word is enough for the wise.the only thing that should still be holding you st chris students back are your transcipt and fees.if the school cannot refund you guys then you guys should make sure you take a legal action.please forget anything st chris for now whether luton based,l-owned or senegalese controlled.they are all criminals.the senegalese do not know much about american kind of education.the only thing you guys should be thinking of now is ,how to transfer to other medical schools and let GOD LEAD YOU BEFORE YOU ATTEND.AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY IS NOT TIED DOWN ,WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR.COLLECT YOUR TRANSCIPTS AND LEAVE.DO YOU SOME KIGEZI STUDENTS ARE STARTING AFRESH AFTER 5YEARS OF MEDICAL SCHOOL.THERE IS A PRICE TO PAY FOR ATTENDING A PRIVATELY OWNED MEDICAL SCHOOL IN UK.
REMEMBER REMEMBER REMEMBER FROM HISTORY NO IMSCHOOL HAS SURVIVED HARDSHIP IN THE UK.I

WANT YOU GUYS TO KNOW DR L IS NOT GENUINE WITH HIS PLANS TO MERGE WITH MUA.THOSE GUYS ARE TERRIBLE.RUN FOR YOUR LIFE.PEOPLE LIKE THAT ARE DESPERATE.HE EVEN SENDS POST ON THIS FORUM ACTING AS A STUDENT.TELLING YOU TO TRANSFER TO MUA
WOLVES IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
REMEMBER IF YOU LOSE YOUR MONEY DR L WOULDNT BE THERE TO PAY BACK THE LOAN
BE WISE AND ACT NOW.OK

marconim
04-04-2006, 05:18 PM
Why would the ECFMG put themselves in the position of having to defend a decision which allowed students from a school that opened without a charter to sit for exams? BTS and MTT should trans. and redo these credits.

AS USUAL, INFO THAT IS USELESS.
CALL THE ECFMG and then give your opinions.
This forum is a disgrace.

I called the ECFMG and was on the phone with them for over 30min.
Credits prior to suspension were done under IMED listing and were under SENEGAL'S Charter!!!!!!!!!! (FACT)
They also stated that if they were transfered to IMED school (accepted by IMED school, there would be no issue when certification of credits happens after a 4 yr med degree in ECFMG's eyes. I am speaking of credits done from Sept 2003-Nov 2005. And why I state these dates is because these are the dates I only care about!!!!!!!!
Now for all you lunatics who speak without facts just call ECFMG and you will get your answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So stop pedaling ignorance!!!!!!!!!!!

PS: this is not aimed at you, empathy, JUST TO THE MISINFORMED

marconim
04-04-2006, 05:23 PM
Also for all you rocket scientists:

I know ECFMG doesn't accredit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you must call state board to see if one can get licenced

marconim
04-04-2006, 06:07 PM
So lets all see who the first person will be to misconstrue what i just posted.
thanks

empathy
04-04-2006, 06:25 PM
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http://www.valuemd.com/images/icons/icon4.gif St. Chris students watch out!
To All St. Christopher Students


If they s***** you once they’ll s***** you again

Recently I got an official statement to students from MUA/Belize that states that the government of Belize has fully accredited St. Christopher’s College of Medicine (how could they accredit us when they’ve never been here?) and therefore students who attended St. Christopher’s are to be certified by the ECFMG and sit for the USMLE. Seems like good news; except it is not true.

The ECFMG has not agreed to this arrangement. Call the ECFMG and find out for yourself.

St. Martinas

St, Martinas has offered to have students from St. Christopher’s sit for exams in order to obtain credit for the course they completed at St. Christopher’s They have told us that if we pass, they will issue a transcript that indicates that we passed the course at St. Martinas. Sounds good: however the problem is to do so would be fraud. All state licensing boards require applicants for medical licensure to list all medical schools they have attended and submit transcripts from each of those medical schools. Failure to do so when applying for a license is considered obtaining a license fraudulently. Call your state medical board and find out the truth. Do not enter into a fraudulent relationship with a fraudulent school.

milos
04-04-2006, 06:54 PM
To BTS, MTT and any other SC cheerleader over the years:

You have been indicted for the following sins and crimes against humanity --

1. Lying to potential SC students. You have repeatedly and consistently told blatant falsehoolds to potential students in order to reel them into SC. Your non-truths are here for all to see in the archives of VMD, as well as Network54, studentdoctor.net and other fora. As a result of your disgusting actions, numerous students attended SC and wasted countless dollars (as well as wasted time). Had you not stated your falsehoods repeatedly and consistently, these individual may have very well attended a real offshore school such as SGU, Ross or AUC, and they would not be in the predicament that they currently are.

2. Lying to other SC students. You have repeatedly and consistently told blatant falsehoods to your fellow students (those who were already at SC or those who enrolled without seeing your falsehoods on VMD, and other fora.) Due to your painting a rosy picture of SC (although you knew this not to be the case), these individuals continued their studies at SC instead of transferring. You therefore contributed to their wasting both time and money.

3. Lying to family and friends. You pretended to be British medical students -- when you knew in good conscience that you were no such thing. You pretended that your counterparts were medical students at real British universities such as King's, or Cambridge, or Oxford. You did this in order to raise your status among your family and friends. You could not stand the fact that you were not good enough to be admitted to a US school and had to go to an offshore school, so you pretended you were a real British student. You could not live with yourself if you attended a lowly Caribbean program, so you instead went to an African school but conveniently left out the "Senegal" part.

4. Lying to yourself. You stated your falsehoods so frequently and with such vehemence, you actually started to believe you were a real British student, and therefore "better" than the "morons" at places like AUC, Saba, Ross, SMU, etc. You snubbed your nose at Caribbean students, although Senegal is in fact far more Third World than most places in the Caribbean.

Since you have committed the above acts, you may find yourself to be defendants (along with your despicable mentor, Mr. L) in legal actions brought forth by aggrieved parties. You may therefore be required to pay a percentage of any future earnings to those you mislead and injured. That is something, however, we will leave for another day.

Because you have been adjudged guilty of these crimes and sins, you are sentenced to re-do your entire medical education at, appropriately enough, a Caribbean school. If you do not re-do your medical education, you will not obtain a residency and you will not receive a permanent license to practice medicine in any US state. The punishment fits the crime, my friends.

Picard
04-04-2006, 07:09 PM
Also for all you rocket scientists:

I know ECFMG doesn't accredit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you must call state board to see if one can get licenced

Yes, you are correct about the ECFMG part.
And yes, you are correct in checking with medical boards for licensure because ECFMG alone has never been enough for licensure.

Here's the larger picture --
While it's smart for students in basic sciences now to call individual medical boards about licensure, doing so only tells you what the status of licensure eligibilty for your school TODAY. Basic science students will not be in the licensure process for another 5 years or so. Things change, especially in the offshore IMG licensing world. More and more states are getting stricter and stricter.

For example. There are folks from TN who started medical school a year ago, after calling TN board and were told that their school was OK for licensure in TN AT THAT TIME. Well, guess what, TN just changed it's stance and are using the California list now....

You need to look at current trend and set your sights a few years down the road. IMG licensure will only get alot tougher in the coming years, not easier.

P

hydatiform
04-04-2006, 07:44 PM
This was not an official statement from MUA-Belize. It was a blanket statement made by L to cover his ****. Don't get the 2 confused. MUA-Belize reps have confirmed that they CANNOT retroactively accept credits from 2000-onwards. They will most likely begin accreditation from this semester only. Most of the students will go with the lesser of 2 evils - Senegal. And they are lesser by far when compared with L.


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http://www.valuemd.com/images/icons/icon4.gif St. Chris students watch out!
To All St. Christopher Students


If they s***** you once they’ll s***** you again

Recently I got an official statement to students from MUA/Belize that states that the government of Belize has fully accredited St. Christopher’s College of Medicine (how could they accredit us when they’ve never been here?) and therefore students who attended St. Christopher’s are to be certified by the ECFMG and sit for the USMLE. Seems like good news; except it is not true.

The ECFMG has not agreed to this arrangement. Call the ECFMG and find out for yourself.

St. Martinas

St, Martinas has offered to have students from St. Christopher’s sit for exams in order to obtain credit for the course they completed at St. Christopher’s They have told us that if we pass, they will issue a transcript that indicates that we passed the course at St. Martinas. Sounds good: however the problem is to do so would be fraud. All state licensing boards require applicants for medical licensure to list all medical schools they have attended and submit transcripts from each of those medical schools. Failure to do so when applying for a license is considered obtaining a license fraudulently. Call your state medical board and find out the truth. Do not enter into a fraudulent relationship with a fraudulent school.

empathy
04-04-2006, 07:56 PM
St. Christopher's College of Medicine Senegal, UK, BelizeGreat Britain ceased accepting its degrees, March, 2006. No Senegalese school issuing degrees under this name exists as of March, 2006. Portion of Luton (UK) operation became a branch campus of Medical University of the Americas, Belize, March 28, 2006. See Medical University of the Americas.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

dt
04-04-2006, 08:33 PM
There is a 7-year time limit for most states to complete all Steps (1 to 3).

http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html

Is this correct?

If one wrote step 1, say, last year, and now starts over and repeat the basic sciences and clinicals, is there enough time in the future to complete step 3?

marconim
04-04-2006, 09:17 PM
Yes, you are correct about the ECFMG part.
And yes, you are correct in checking with medical boards for licensure because ECFMG alone has never been enough for licensure.

Here's the larger picture --
While it's smart for students in basic sciences now to call individual medical boards about licensure, doing so only tells you what the status of licensure eligibilty for your school TODAY. Basic science students will not be in the licensure process for another 5 years or so. Things change, especially in the offshore IMG licensing world. More and more states are getting stricter and stricter.

For example. There are folks from TN who started medical school a year ago, after calling TN board and were told that their school was OK for licensure in TN AT THAT TIME. Well, guess what, TN just changed it's stance and are using the California list now....

You need to look at current trend and set your sights a few years down the road. IMG licensure will only get alot tougher in the coming years, not easier.

P

SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT???????????
go get a day job to pay your loans???????
This forum is getting worst by the day.
USELESS info 24/7

No one here ever has options just bla,bla,bla

Just read your other post on other thread , possible option picard (starting fresh)
thanks

Picard
04-04-2006, 09:56 PM
SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT???????????
go get a day job to pay your loans???????
This forum is getting worst by the day.
USELESS info 24/7

No one here ever has options just bla,bla,bla

Just read your other post on other thread , possible option picard (starting fresh)
thanks

The point is, SC students are in a tough spot. There are no perfect solutions. I am merely trying to point out that IMG students nowadays need to set their sights on the big picture. Those of us in practice now have seen the dramatic changes in the IMG licensing game over the past decade. As an IMG who works as a full time faculty in a large US med school, I come across licensing issues and attend licensing-related meetings on a fairly regular basis. I am simply offering my observations of our current climate. Take it for whatever it's worth to you. My personal opinion is that the safest thing for SC students to do now is start over in an established school. No, this may not appeal to everyone. But I think it's the safest thing to do in the long run. Again, take it for whatever it's worth to you. If it's worthless to you, that's OK too. I wish you and your classmates the best (sincerely so).

P







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