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orangecrush
03-27-2006, 01:52 PM
As far as I can tell there will be no problems with licensure for transferring students that have credits to other schools. Except for the usual problems: CA, TX.

Kigezi had a similar problem and their students transferred to Ross for the most part. I have not heard that they have had any students with licensure problems.

Anyone with info on this issue....not just speculation, pls post.

Picard
03-27-2006, 05:47 PM
Here's my take on things. We live in very interesting times in the offshore IMG's Saga. I think it's very short sighted to only talk about the status of licensure TODAY -- meaning only discussing where XZY school grads can be licensed and where the problem states are today. Just in the past few years, we have seen states that were "easy" a year or two ago are now taking a close second look at medical trainings of offshore IMG's. For example, TN is now intensely scrutinizing offshore IMG's to the point where California list is all but adopted. NV has also taken similar stance when AUA inquired this past month. So, we simply cannot have a logical discussion about IMG licensure without some degree of "speculation" based on recent trends and experiences. To do otherwise, is to repeat the mistake one has already made -- medical students must look ahead 5 to 10 years from now when talking about licensure, because that's when you will be applying for licensure.

Now, since Kizegi was brought up. I can give you specific instances of licensing problems in NJ and MA. NJ law requires attendance of basic science in the actual country of charter for licensure (residency is debatable... there have been reports of Kizegi grads being asked to leave residency because of this). As for MA, I know of one Kizegi grad who was asked to leave her residency because she was not licensible in MA, and had to start over.

To break up a long post, I will continue in the next post.

P

Picard
03-27-2006, 06:52 PM
Continue from above...

Here's my personal opinion on the various options presented to SC students. Keep in mind that this is my personal opinion only, not legal advice, and certainly do not apply to every SC student's situation.

1) Senegal to take over SC from current "owners"... be that an outright purchase of the current Luton campus, or buying other buildings near Luton and form another campus: This option presents several potential problems. First, this new "SC" (or more than likely will have a new name), is essentially a new school, to start from scratch. Current students will "technically" be "transferring" from the old SC into the new school. If the old SC is not recognized, then you again run the risk of not having your old credits recognized by licensing boards. It's unknown at this time how various licensing boards will treat this situation, REGARDLESS of what ECFMG says. Also, you will become the "charter class" of a new school, under new management. How experienced are the Senegal folks in running an offshore school? It's not as simple as putting up buildings and starting classes. A new school takes planning... and do the Senegal folks have the experties in the various legal aspects of US medical licensing laws, contacts with hospital rotations... etc. And, will this new management have the financial ability to start a new school? Senegal is not a wealthy country, and was counting on money from Mr. L.... where are they going to come up with the money to start and sustain a new school? Medical education cost money... how are they going to pay the professors? Hospitals? All these questions need to be answered fully and honestly before this option should be entertained.
In addition, don't forget that media and public opinions often have legislative influences. Although the practice of "squatting" (for lack of a better term) is technically legal in the UK at this time, who is to say that public "concerns" and certain objections from established UK medical communities will not cause new legislations to be passed and compell "squatter schools" to either pass UK accreditation (and become full-fledge UK schools) or leave UK completely? What if this happened before you graduate? SC was, in essence, the last remaining "squatter" school before the current situation. It's not hard to imagine that the next step is the passage of legislation to outlaw "squatter" practice if SC tries to resurrect under new Senegal management. Ross was booted out of Wyoming the last minute. Columbia's Qatar campus was required to obtain local charter/accreditation. I think "squatter school" practice, while currently legal, has a very bleak future in the UK.

2) Transferring with advanced standing in other schools -- this sounds very attractive. However, with the current trend in increasing scrutiny in offshore education, are you willing to bet that licensing boards will hold the same view 5 years from now? Keep in mind that within this past year, TN and NV, two previously easy states, have taken tougher stances. And, if the current SC (owned by Mr. L, not the new entity) does not regain ECFMG, how will licensing boards view the credits from SC 5 years from now? Keep in mind that more and more states are getting tougher. Plus, how will you get official transcripts mailed directly from the old SC to FCVS/licensing boards 5 years from now. Keep in mind that you cannot start FCVS process until you graduate. And no, your new school cannot serve as your custodian of record for your SC credits. Besides official transcripts, FCVS also requires "QUESTIONAIRES" to be filled out by school officials from every school you attended and seeking credit. These questionaires are mailed directly from FCVS to your school, and cannot be done until you graduate and apply for FCVS profile. Will someone from the old SC be around 5 years from now to fill these out for you? Many states require FCVS profile for licensure. Most states also have their own forms that must be filled out by school officials from every school you've attended and seek credit. Will someone from the old SC -- not the potential new Senegal SC -- be around in 5 years to fill these out for you when you need them?

3) Starting over in an established school. This sounds like the safest route. HOWEVER, this also presents problems for those who are graduating soon and have taken USMLE Step I and II. The MAJOR problem for these folks is that many states have requirements that you complete USMLE Step I/II/III within 7 years of passing Step I. And no, once you have passed a step, you cannot "retake" it and restart the clock. So, if these students start over, it will be a minimum of 4 years before they can take Step III. Now, this will cut very, very close to the 7-year time limit. And they must find a state that will allow them to take Step III right after graduation before residency. There are not that many states that allow this, and it will be a pain to travel to those states to take Step III right at the time you are starting residency.

It's a tough situation. There are not any simple solutions at this point. As for other "unnamed US agencies" involved... well, as someone has mentioned before, having an affiliated office in NJ, and using US Postal Service, telephone infrastructuers... etc puts SC under the potential jurisdictions of many US federal law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, Secret Service (financial/banking crimes), and Postal Inspector's Service, just to name a few...

Additionally, even if Mr. L is oust as an owner, he still has the ability to make life very uncomfortable for SC students, even into the new Senegal version, if there is one. He ran the school for many years... what's stopping him from calling every licensing authority possible to "cause trouble" if he wants to after he is oust?

Best wishes to current SC students. I don't envy the choices you have to make now.

P

orangecrush
03-27-2006, 07:12 PM
This will not be a new school. Just like Ross is not a new school after being bought by Devry.

Your also implying that Mr. L was the only owner at the time...that is not the case. We don't know how the deal is going to unfold. It is true that Mr. L will make problems for the school. He has not shown to have the students best interests in mind.

If Senegal does buy the school or purchase a portion of it, which is my opinion they will keep the charter under the same country. Don't see an issue with that....why would they need to change the name....speculation, but warranted at this time.

Picard
03-27-2006, 07:24 PM
This is to assume that outside agencies will see this as a "purchase," and not a "disown and start anew," especially if a new campus is envisioned. And, this also does not take into account the larger picture of UK public views and opinions. It's not too far fetch that if SC were to re-invent itself in UK, the next step UK takes may just be the legislation change that outlaws squatter schools altogether unless they become fully accredited UK schools. Ross lost Wyoming in similar fashion. BBC's reports, unfortunately, brought the issue of "squatter school" into public debate... And public "concerns" often translates to legislative actions.

P

studentMD
03-27-2006, 08:22 PM
There are not that many states that allow this, and it will be a pain to travel to those states to take Step III right at the time you are starting residency.


just an aside.. you can apply to whatever state allows you to take step III and have them endorse your app.. then you can take step III anywhere in the US regardless of which state endorsed your app ..

(im canadian and had to take step 3 before starting residency so was in that boat.. took it in NY, CT endorsed my app)

CorporateRaider
03-27-2006, 08:42 PM
Picard has buzzed my taste buds with his ideas.

I have an inclination to agree with Orange here, no matter what mister "L" wants to say, as long as the Senegalese own the charter, any college that becomes accredited under that charter belongs to that charter (thus it belongs to Senegal).






This will not be a new school. Just like Ross is not a new school after being bought by Devry.

Your also implying that Mr. L was the only owner at the time...that is not the case. We don't know how the deal is going to unfold. It is true that Mr. L will make problems for the school. He has not shown to have the students best interests in mind.

If Senegal does buy the school or purchase a portion of it, which is my opinion they will keep the charter under the same country. Don't see an issue with that....why would they need to change the name....speculation, but warranted at this time.

pruritis_ani
03-27-2006, 09:29 PM
Mr L owns the name St. Chris, doesn't he?

If so, Senegal taking ownership would require a new charter and name.

PathOne
03-27-2006, 10:02 PM
Ehh, why exactly would Senegal, one of the poorest countries in the world, want to take over a medical school in the UK focused on producing physicians for the US, Canada and the UK? Rather obviously, they could spend their time and energy so much better by trying to improve the medical training IN Senegal (and the fact that Senegal is francophone makes this idea so much more farfetched -- nobody from "old" or "new" St. Chris would ever work for any length of time in the country of charter).

Also, please bear in mind that the GMC has now effectively banned all squatter schools in the UK. They're perhaps not shutting them down outright, but they're very publicly refusing to license the grads from these schools. Good luck trying to convince a state medical board to issue you a permanent license when your medical qualification wasn't gained in the country of charter, and is deemed insufficient in the country where you actually trained.

Perhaps my imagination isn't sufficiently developed, but how anyone can imagine that St. Chris will survive, or that those who do nothing to extricate themselves from the current predicament is, in my mind, running fast towards insolvable problems. That, however, is of course the right of anyone.

Through this entire process, anyone questioning the survivability of St. Chris has been deemed a "hater" of the school and its students. Unfortunately for those who has defended the school, none of their rosy scenarios have in any way materialized, while the predictions of the "haters" have proven pretty accurate. So, running the risk of being deemed a "hater" who's actually responsible for the current predicament, I will be blunt and state that it can only be a question of time, before the school will close its doors for the last time. Hopefully, current students and graduates will before then have had the opportunity to extricate themselves from this incredible mess.

In closing I notice that, entirely as expected, St. Chris has in no way altered its website or made any official comment to the GMC decision. So if you're in search of a medical school, and not a regular browser of this site or the GMC, you'd have no way of knowing just how deep trouble St. Chris is in. They must really be proud of themselves in Luton for being so responsible (add sarcasm here)

maximillian genossa
03-27-2006, 11:11 PM
..."why exactly would Senegal, one of the poorest countries in the world, want to take over a medical school in the UK focused on producing physicians for the US, Canada and the UK?"

For those who believe that will happen, or that is even a possibility ...ever seen a pregnant butterfly or a pregnant buzzard?

Perhaps in your dreams after lighting up a good "gallo"

IndianSClink
03-28-2006, 12:26 AM
...............................................

IndianSClink
03-28-2006, 12:43 AM
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AUCMD2006
03-28-2006, 12:30 PM
Ehh, why exactly would Senegal, one of the poorest countries in the world, want to take over a medical school in the UK focused on producing physicians for the US, Canada and the UK? Rather obviously, they could spend their time and energy so much better by trying to improve the medical training IN Senegal (and the fact that Senegal is francophone makes this idea so much more farfetched -- nobody from "old" or "new" St. Chris would ever work for any length of time in the country of charter).

Also, please bear in mind that the GMC has now effectively banned all squatter schools in the UK. They're perhaps not shutting them down outright, but they're very publicly refusing to license the grads from these schools. Good luck trying to convince a state medical board to issue you a permanent license when your medical qualification wasn't gained in the country of charter, and is deemed insufficient in the country where you actually trained.

Perhaps my imagination isn't sufficiently developed, but how anyone can imagine that St. Chris will survive, or that those who do nothing to extricate themselves from the current predicament is, in my mind, running fast towards insolvable problems. That, however, is of course the right of anyone.

Through this entire process, anyone questioning the survivability of St. Chris has been deemed a "hater" of the school and its students. Unfortunately for those who has defended the school, none of their rosy scenarios have in any way materialized, while the predictions of the "haters" have proven pretty accurate. So, running the risk of being deemed a "hater" who's actually responsible for the current predicament, I will be blunt and state that it can only be a question of time, before the school will close its doors for the last time. Hopefully, current students and graduates will before then have had the opportunity to extricate themselves from this incredible mess.

In closing I notice that, entirely as expected, St. Chris has in no way altered its website or made any official comment to the GMC decision. So if you're in search of a medical school, and not a regular browser of this site or the GMC, you'd have no way of knowing just how deep trouble St. Chris is in. They must really be proud of themselves in Luton for being so responsible (add sarcasm here)


because its the perfect cover for anyone involved from senegal. it is a major cash cow that is foreign in location, financial dealings, etc so no one in senegal really has to know what is going on...they are more focused on bigger things there like surviving. you don't really think the Humanitarian Aid that bts and others have touted as the crown jewels in SC really went to humanitarian aid did you? i bet anyone involved with SC has great clothes, european vacations, a land rover in dakar....

same for the military in south america, do you think all the aid sent there to fight drugs really goes to it? if you answer NO then you are correct. the military is a cushy job in latin america...they are poor, vaguely educated peasants driving a benz, wife fresh from a mud hut now in furs with jewelery in every orifice, houses in miami, kids in school in europe....and so on..i am sure the senegalese are fightin for this because it is their cushy gig.....

orangecrush
03-28-2006, 01:04 PM
rrod and pathone...your posts have nothing to do with license issues...

Moderator....please move them to a different thread

PathOne
03-28-2006, 02:07 PM
rrod and pathone...your posts have nothing to do with license issues...

Moderator....please move them to a different thread

Pardon me, but it has EVERYTHING to do with licensing issues. IF a charter/affiliation with Senegal could be proven to be or have existed, there should be no problem just transferring to another school. That would only mean that one cannot get licensed according to California rules, but that was never an option for St. Chris grads, even when the going was good.

IF, however, no affiliation AT ALL or at any time can be proven, i.e. that Senegal washes its hands completely, it's an altogether different ballgame, especially in terms of licensing... Because if you transfer, bringing along credits from a non-WHO/IMED listed school, you're likely to be in a world of hurt when standing before state licensing boards. Regardless of your ECFMG certification (ECFMG looks only at the name on the diploma - where St. Chris now doesn't work, while state licensing boards look at the ENTIRE medical training).

So the discussion about Senegal is indeed also very much about licensing issues.

SillyDoc
03-28-2006, 09:32 PM
That was a nice little filibuster at the start of the thread, and I read as much as I could stand to......two quick points: the requirement about passing all the steps within seven yrs of step 1.....well, if you do it within 4 years, you're still beating the requirement by three years, it is not "cutting it close", three years is a hell of a long time, and nearly half the overall deadline mentioned.

Secondly, it would not be a "pain" to go to some state to take step 3 at the time you start residency or shortly before. I mean, if you won't put yourself out a little for something as big as this, exactly when would you? Of course the National Board of Medical Examiners or ECFMG isn't going to come to your living room and smooth the process out for you. After many years of study and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent, I am pretty sure no one would mind to make a trip to whereever necessary, if it meant their medical career would move forward. Let's keep things in perspective.

As far as these characters on this board who like to always pretend that licensure is this massive obstacle which will never be overcome unless every i is dotted and every t crossed......PM me for specific names and places of residents, mutiple residents, who are doing residency right now AND THEY DID NOT ATTEND AN ACCREDITED SCHOOL.

Remember that some of these medical boards are staffed by lazy bureaucrats who care about little other than their lifetime job security and the right to sit in their office all day doing little more than scratching their behind.

Yes, I know it sounds cynical, but there was a time I tried to blow the whistle on individuals who attended an unaccredited school but still fraudulently appeared in usmle, and I thoroughly informed ECFMG with names, dates, places.....all they had to do was investigate but that's the problem.....lazy bureaucrats, don't expect too much from em.

Picard
03-28-2006, 10:18 PM
Silly,
Your math is a bit off.
If current SC MS-4's are not able to graduate (for whatever reason), and choose to start over, they are very close to the 7-year deadline. Those MS-4's presumably took and passed Step I in mid-2004, when they were finishing their MS-2 years at SC. If they start over right away this fall (2006), the earliest they will be eligible for Step III will be mid-2010, a full 6 years after they took Step I. This is assuming all goes well and they are able to start over this fall. Some of them don't have MCAT, some of them may have taken Step I earlier than 2004 (those took longer in clinicals, for example). So yes, 6 years is close.

Yes, ECFMG is a bureaucratic entity that often do not take actions that they should in fraudulent cases -- Now, what does that say about SC??? Being suspended by a "lazy bureaucratic" organization that is known for it's inaction.


As far as these characters on this board who like to always pretend that licensure is this massive obstacle which will never be overcome unless every i is dotted and every t crossed......PM me for specific names and places of residents, mutiple residents, who are doing residency right now AND THEY DID NOT ATTEND AN ACCREDITED SCHOOL.
This shows aweful lack of understanding about "accreditation." With a few exceptions, most foreign schools are not "accredited" in the US. LCME does not accredit schools outside of US/Canada. ECFMG/IMED is nothing but a "telephone" service that list medical schools reported by each country -- ECFMG/IMED are NOT accreditation bodies. In order to obtain ECFMG certificate, one's medical school must be listed in WHO/IMED. This means the medical school is accredited BY ITS CHARTER COUNTRY. And yes, accreditation process has a very wide range of quality control in different countries. So, everyone who has ECFMG certificate graduated from a school that is "accredited" somewhere, this is the only way for the school to be listed in WHO/IMED. Now, if you are implying that some doctors have falsified their records to obtain licensure - well, I'm sure it happens... but when you ratted them out to their medical boards, did you have any solid proof that is verifiable? Yes, I will be taking you up on your offer and PM'ing you for names. Better yet, without posting individual names of fradulent doctors who took USMLE, why don't you post the names of the "medical schools" you claim to be "unaccredited" and the year those doc's took USMLE -- doing so does not hurt anyone since we will be talking about "unaccredited schools" that "everyone should avoid." How about it?

P

SillyDoc
07-09-2006, 09:31 AM
Picard,

You can post whatever lawyerly gibberish you like about accreditation, I stand by my basic statement:

I am acquainted with individuals who did not attend an accredited medical school and yet are in residency having fraudulently appeared in usmle.

In fact, one is a well-placed official in the AMSA section of the AMA. Feel free to PM about that, and if I am wrong, feel free to point that out here.

I want to contribute if I can to ending this idea that licensure is this detective hunt where they find out that years ago, you jaywalked across the road when no one was looking and thus deny you licensure. It's not like that at all. Particularly for some of these medical schools in Asia, I know one in India that is barely able to come up with letterhead for its students documents (it's a financial issue, not one of competence at all) when they are registering for step 1, residency etc.

Milrinone
07-10-2006, 09:25 AM
Now that the problem with SC seems resolved do you think they will have License problems?

tanisha
07-10-2006, 02:59 PM
Now that the problem with SC seems resolved do you think they will have License problems?

how is it resolved? what has been resolved about them? and i am genuinely asking this....not trying to be a smart aleck.

Picard
07-10-2006, 05:07 PM
Yes Silly,
Please PM me the names of doc's you think have fraudulently appeared in USMLE. Again, with a few exceptions, LCME (U.S. accreditation body) does NOT accredit foreign medical schools. As long as the school is listed in IMED (nothing but a phone book), graduates are allowed to sit for USMLE. Does cheating/fraudulent stuff happen, of course. Medical licensing is not infallable. Heck, there is a guy in California who has been tossed in jail 5 or 6 times for impersonating a doctor/fraudulent practice of medicine... and guess what, he kept doing it every time he was released from jail. No system is perfect in terms of checks and balances. Heck, I had an IMG resident last year that I strongly suspected that someone else took the USMLE's for him. He scored 250+ in all 3 steps, but had no idea what NSAID's or quinolones were on wards. So fraud does happen, just like any other profession.

As for criminal records -- these are easier to track down compared with medical school education records. Search of NCIC, III... etc can yield quite a lot of your history. When I was a cop, I did background investigations on new recruits for a while... it's amazing what you can dig up. Most (but not all) medical boards have sworn peace officer investigators (think guns and badges) who can do similar things.

As for SCIMD -- this is essentially a new school now. Save the discussion on the technical owner transfer/fiasco/split/court decision... etc. The fact is, SCIMB is under a new leadership, a leadership that seemingly has not had a great deal of experiences running an offshore school and not familiar with US medical licensing system. Medical boards are keenly aware of the fiasco that went on. This new entity SCIMD has not produced a licensed grad under this new format/set up. It is not recognized by any US licensing authority (no NY/FL/CA approval). So, it falls in the same category/group/risk as any other new schools such as St. James/Xavier/Windsor/St. Theresa... etc, plus the added complication of students not setting foot on the country of charter (NJ requirement). So yes, SC survived the ECFMG scare, but that's not nearly the end of the issue. As more and more states look to the California List, one can only speculate what will happen when the current students are seeking licensure 5 to 10 years from now.

Take it for what it's worth. I"ve been around the IMG circle for over a decade now and have seen things come and go. And I regularly attend licensure-related meetings as a faculty member of an US medical school. This is just an educated guess as to the current state of affairs... it will only get tougher.







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