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diogenes
03-26-2006, 11:29 AM
The St. Chris debacle has thrown up issues for a number of other schools who have grads. wishing to practice in the U.K. See
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/how_to_register/registration (http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/how_to_register/registration/acceptable_primary_medical_qualifications.asp)/acceptable_primary_medical_qualifications.asp (http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/how_to_register/registration/acceptable_primary_medical_qualifications.asp)

Especially para. 3 which now puts IUHS, along with various other schools into a "case by case" consideration category.
As usual the GMC's information is somewhat opaque, perhaps deliberately so. However, I wonder if this means that they will in future follow the example of many American state licensing boards and refuse to accept degrees from those who have studied basic sciences wholly or mostly online.

maximillian genossa
03-27-2006, 12:54 PM
The GMC is sort of unprediactable. Notice that in the same category falls College of Medicine and Health Sciences, St. Lucia, which also offers a distance basic sciences component.

Gotta give it to them, they did better than St. Christopher.

Oh, also, on the list of other schools, there are at least 3 Dominican Republic schools that they accept that I know by personal and proper knowledge, where shut down by the Dominican Republic Government for being diploma mills. So, go figure how much the GMC really knows about what they are supposed to be doing, what a sham.

If you want more information on these schools, PM me.







The St. Chris debacle has thrown up issues for a number of other schools who have grads. wishing to practice in the U.K. See
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/how_to_register/registration (http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/how_to_register/registration/acceptable_primary_medical_qualifications.asp)/acceptable_primary_medical_qualifications.asp (http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/how_to_register/registration/acceptable_primary_medical_qualifications.asp)

Especially para. 3 which now puts IUHS, along with various other schools into a "case by case" consideration category.
As usual the GMC's information is somewhat opaque, perhaps deliberately so. However, I wonder if this means that they will in future follow the example of many American state licensing boards and refuse to accept degrees from those who have studied basic sciences wholly or mostly online.

Ming
05-11-2006, 11:23 PM
the main problem here is that the IUHS degree doesn't show they weren't in attendance at the campus. The campus school does follow the school/charter scenario that sunk St. C, but most of the IUHS students are all on-line. You are correct that that would put them into the same situation, but not if it's not known. Until the application for state licensing has the question on it, many just might slip through this crack

maximillian genossa
05-12-2006, 01:24 PM
GMC is aware of the online basic sciences component of IUHS. Their major beef is clinical component and if their charter is legal in terms of the school having facilities and students on campus and if the charting government authorizes it. So far, for some folks dissapointment, AS LONG AS IUHS keeps some students on campus and St. Kitts says the school is in good standing there, then they are not as much in hot waters as St. Chris et.al.

At U.S. State licensing level, only time will tell.





the main problem here is that the IUHS degree doesn't show they weren't in attendance at the campus. The campus school does follow the school/charter scenario that sunk St. C, but most of the IUHS students are all on-line. You are correct that that would put them into the same situation, but not if it's not known. Until the application for state licensing has the question on it, many just might slip through this crack

diogenes
05-12-2006, 01:36 PM
Since I started this thread I have had a rethink and gone back to the original source- the GMC's website. There is a major flaw in my original suggestion: the GMC appears to be quite happy with UHSA, another distance-learning school.
A better hypothesis to explain the presence of IUHS and COMHS on the "case by case" list is that both schools have or have had affiliates in the U.K. (e.g. LCM in both cases). The GMC does not appear to be happy about such arrangements (see para 5 of same GMC linked page) which have a strong St. Chris/squatter flavour to them.

Chemist_11
05-14-2006, 04:40 AM
I would like to know why rotations are availible at UK NHS hospitals, if the GMC isn't supporting IUHS/LCM. :rolleyes:

diogenes
05-14-2006, 10:55 AM
I would like to know why rotations are availible at UK NHS hospitals, if the GMC isn't supporting IUHS/LCM. :rolleyes:
Are rotations available in the NHS for these schools? Interesting. I've no idea myself. Have you heard of it recently?
As for the GMC not supporting IUHS/LCM, I'm not sure what you mean. As per the link in my original post, all the GMC has done is put IUHS on a list of schools whose grads. will be dealt with on a case by case basis. The discussion in this thread concerned Why? and What does this mean in practice?

Chemist_11
05-14-2006, 11:54 PM
The discussion in this thread concerned Why? and What does this mean in practice?

So you mean what was the point of my post. Ok, here goes. I think we can all say that the case by case basis means where the student did his/hers basic science course, if it was on the internet, they have a very slim chance of their degree being accepted for registration purposes in the UK. Now, if the LCM/IUHS/LMS offer UK NHS rotations to the 'online programme' students, why? surely the hospitals should want to have nothing to do with these students? i mean rotations in the UK were offered to the on campus students it would be a fair deal, but i think it all boils down to 1 thing. Why does this school have students willing to enter the online programme? Where can the graduates of the online programme practice? Because i can safely say that a student of the online programme will not be accepted over here in the UK - that is why the GMC is being yet again so wishy washy - because i think they will accept the campus programme and not the online one.

diogenes
05-15-2006, 04:16 AM
So you mean what was the point of my post.
No! I meant what I said and said what I meant:)

I think we can all say that the case by case basis means where the student did his/hers basic science course, if it was on the internet, they have a very slim chance of their degree being accepted for registration purposes in the UK.
At the moment I can't be counted amongst the "all". As I said in my last post- why is UHSA not on the "case by case" list? Here, I agree with you about the GMC being "wishy-washy". They could easily have forgotten about that school! It also depends on your interpretation of para.5: do they mean internet studies at home in the U.K.; or study through an affiliate; or both? The GMC urgently needs the services of a good parliamentary draughtsman to clarify their verbiage.

Now, if the LCM/IUHS/LMS offer UK NHS rotations to the 'online programme' students, why? surely the hospitals should want to have nothing to do with these students?
I would, as I said, be interested to know if students are currently obtaining NHS rotations. Although, remember that the guidance circular to the Trusts only advised them not to accept students from unapproved U.K. private schools, it didn't prohibit (nor indeed can the GMC, I believe, dictate to the Trusts in this way without exceeding their statutory powers).

Because i can safely say that a student of the online programme will not be accepted over here in the UK
Can you really? Because of the GMC's lack of clarity, I cannot. Remember that they have not followed the U.S. state boards line on distance-learning so far (by the way, can anyone remind if there are any boards which will accept online degrees?).
Perhaps a current online student can help us out here with "guidance notes" on the GMC's mystic ramblings.

Chemist_11
05-15-2006, 10:49 AM
I will admit being wrong if one, just one IUHS/LCM graduate who took part in the online basic sciences gets granted GMC registration. I feel that this will not happen.

As for UK rotations in NHS hospitals, LCM indeed say they offer them - although this is what they say so :rolleyes:.

Also, if the NHS and the GMC want to abolish 'pseudo' medical schools with dodgy programmes and bent staff, dont you think that they should all be in aggreement that they will take none of the students?

Chemist_11
05-15-2006, 10:51 AM
P.s. Dio, i think you are as guilty as the GMC when it comes to sitting on the fence :p

diogenes
05-15-2006, 12:41 PM
I will admit being wrong if one, just one IUHS/LCM graduate who took part in the online basic sciences gets granted GMC registration. I feel that this will not happen.
As for UK rotations in NHS hospitals, LCM indeed say they offer them - although this is what they say so :rolleyes:.
Also, if the NHS and the GMC want to abolish 'pseudo' medical schools with dodgy programmes and bent staff, dont you think that they should all be in aggreement that they will take none of the students?
It's not a question of right or wrong or having to admit anything. For all I know you may be correct in your feeling that the online grads. will not be registered. Based on what I have read on the GMC's website I am not so certain- there are various interpretations and angles on this which people have discussed here. And, again, where is UHSA on the list?
LCM has not been affiliated with IUHS for over 18 months. They had a brief affiliation with COMHS and that has also finished.
IUHS itself merely states that "The Clinical Affairs Office will provide students with assistance in securing clinical rotations in affiliate hospitals in St. Kitts, Canada, United States, England, Australia, India, and Mexico." So right now we don't know if their students are actually rotating in NHS hospitals.
Yes, the GMC and the NHS ought to be in agreement. But we still don't know (or at least I don't) what precisely the GMC's policy is; and I'm willing to bet that most hospital managers don't either. Besides, there may be, as I stated, legal difficulties.
Your last post about my sitting on the fence baffles me. Either, you have not read this thread very carefully and failed to see that the discussion was not about what ought to be but about what is, and what might be. Or, maybe the fact that I have changed my mind about how to read the GMC or that there is much I'm uncertain of leads you to that conclusion. Well, if reading documents carefully and trying as best one can to fit the pieces of the puzzle is sitting on the fence then I'm a fence-sitter and proud of it! :D

diogenes
05-15-2006, 12:46 PM
accidental duplicate-deleted

Chemist_11
05-16-2006, 06:35 AM
What i meant by you sitting on the fence is the way in which you do not commit to anything, however i understand what you mean, you do not have sufficient information to do so. Btw, it was a joke :p.

IF, and just if IUHS students are rotating in NHS hospitals, then i think (opinion) that the trusts should be with the GMC, and not entertaining 'students' who couldn't practice in the UK once graduated (or probably many other countries of the world for that matter).

If again it is the case that IUHS students are rotating in NHS hospitals, i would imagine that they would continue to do so if the trusts are being paid for taking students? due to the financial problems within the NHS (that is of course if IUHS pay for students rotations throughout the clinicals, as i know you can get free rotations within the NHS).

Top and tail of the story is that the GMC should say either all IUHS grads, none of them, or only students who attended on campus basic sciences can apply for GMC registration.

Again, i personaly think that what will decide if the grads are eligable for such registration is going to be the basic sciences, and where the students took them, as this is the only difference between a grad of the internet programme and a grad of the on campus programme. (if they both did similar rotations). I think i may email the GMC and ask what the criteria is for applying for registration as a IUHS graduate.

Just my $0.02

maximillian genossa
05-27-2006, 03:22 PM
Where is UHSA on the list. Reason is, that UHSA never had a satellite campus on UK soil. In the last GMC ruling, it appears that they focused their attention on "squatting" schools on UK soil and left many other questions open to speculation.






It's not a question of right or wrong or having to admit anything. For all I know you may be correct in your feeling that the online grads. will not be registered. Based on what I have read on the GMC's website I am not so certain- there are various interpretations and angles on this which people have discussed here. And, again, where is UHSA on the list?
LCM has not been affiliated with IUHS for over 18 months. They had a brief affiliation with COMHS and that has also finished.
IUHS itself merely states that "The Clinical Affairs Office will provide students with assistance in securing clinical rotations in affiliate hospitals in St. Kitts, Canada, United States, England, Australia, India, and Mexico." So right now we don't know if their students are actually rotating in NHS hospitals.
Yes, the GMC and the NHS ought to be in agreement. But we still don't know (or at least I don't) what precisely the GMC's policy is; and I'm willing to bet that most hospital managers don't either. Besides, there may be, as I stated, legal difficulties.
Your last post about my sitting on the fence baffles me. Either, you have not read this thread very carefully and failed to see that the discussion was not about what ought to be but about what is, and what might be. Or, maybe the fact that I have changed my mind about how to read the GMC or that there is much I'm uncertain of leads you to that conclusion. Well, if reading documents carefully and trying as best one can to fit the pieces of the puzzle is sitting on the fence then I'm a fence-sitter and proud of it! :D

diogenes
05-27-2006, 04:20 PM
Where is UHSA on the list. Reason is, that UHSA never had a satellite campus on UK soil. In the last GMC ruling, it appears that they focused their attention on "squatting" schools on UK soil and left many other questions open to speculation.
Precisely. It was the absence of UHSA, the only one without affiliates, that led me to the conclusion that this was a spin-off from the St. Chris. investigations. I have also heard that an affiliate of one of the other schools has been questioned by a ranking GMC official about issues like- who is responsible for the bulk of the teaching; who sets and marks exams; who is in charge of admissions?
According to my source the GMC has not withdrawn its recognition of online courses.

anatomy_guy
05-27-2006, 04:51 PM
Precisely. It was the absence of UHSA, the only one without affiliates, that led me to the conclusion that this was a spin-off from the St. Chris. investigations. I have also heard that an affiliate of one of the other schools has been questioned by a ranking GMC official about issues like- who is responsible for the bulk of the teaching; who sets and marks exams; who is in charge of admissions?
According to my source the GMC has not withdrawn its recognition of online courses.

The GMC would be hard pressed to not accept a certain amount of online education as there are a number of new medical schools in the UK that use online courses as part of their instructional methodology. I know for a fact that Peninsula Medical School has a certain component of their instruction tied into online education. It is actually called a Managed Learning Environment (MLE). They call the system Emily. As to other medical schools in the UK, there is no escaping using the online component for some of the teaching of the basic medical sciences as well as the didactic portion of the clinical sciences. Online education is also used to keep records on the experiences a student accumulates as they gain more clinical experience. Also, there is a longtime medical educator, who retired as Director of the Centre of Medical Education at the University of Dundee in Scotland, who has pushed for the establishment of internet medical schools especially for the didactic content. Of course, clinical experiences would still be required but documentation would entered through secure processes and with appropriate verification.
Just my 2 Canadian.
Cheers, A_G

SSIUHS
05-27-2006, 07:34 PM
mean much.:evil:

dt
05-27-2006, 08:13 PM
it's close to par now.

and will overtake soon??



:)

diogenes
05-27-2006, 08:38 PM
The GMC would be hard pressed to not accept a certain amount of online education as there are a number of new medical schools in the UK that use online courses as part of their instructional methodology. I know for a fact that Peninsula Medical School has a certain component of their instruction tied into online education. It is actually called a Managed Learning Environment (MLE). They call the system Emily. As to other medical schools in the UK, there is no escaping using the online component for some of the teaching of the basic medical sciences as well as the didactic portion of the clinical sciences. Online education is also used to keep records on the experiences a student accumulates as they gain more clinical experience. Also, there is a longtime medical educator, who retired as Director of the Centre of Medical Education at the University of Dundee in Scotland, who has pushed for the establishment of internet medical schools especially for the didactic content. Of course, clinical experiences would still be required but documentation would entered through secure processes and with appropriate verification.
Just my 2 Canadian.
Cheers, A_G
The amount of e-learning on convential courses seems to grow daily here in the U.K. A few months ago Edinburgh announced a new and extensive e-learning resource for clinical students (in conjunction with their vet. school). Cardiff is reputed to have an impressive system and has invested heavily in research on delivery systems. It's my view that eventually there will be such a critical mass of e-learning resources and usage that a reputable school will take the plunge and go for a large element of distance learning.

Chemist_11
05-29-2006, 08:32 AM
As dio said, the UK schools are introducing electronic learning, but i fear many people will read this and miss the point. any E learning in UK schools is acompanied by lots of theortical lectures and hands on experience from the early stages, and is no where near becoming an 'online programme' such as IUHS was.

I do not think that medical studies will be conducted by e-learning, as i think it isn't possible. Due to the nature of the course, i think that medicine should be tought the boring old way.

P.s Dio, are you a UK medical student?

diogenes
05-29-2006, 10:46 AM
As dio said, the UK schools are introducing electronic learning, but i fear many people will read this and miss the point. any E learning in UK schools is acompanied by lots of theortical lectures and hands on experience from the early stages, and is no where near becoming an 'online programme' such as IUHS was.
I do not think that medical studies will be conducted by e-learning, as i think it isn't possible. Due to the nature of the course, i think that medicine should be tought the boring old way.
P.s Dio, are you a UK medical student?
That no current U.K. course is d-l is self-evident. It may be that you are one of those who has missed the point. My thesis is that the amount of e-learning continues to grow apace. At some stage in the future the case for d-l will become indisputable thanks to a combination of economic necessity and the evidence of the success of substantial e-learning (the critical mass I spoke of). Why should "lots of theoretical lectures" not be replaced by IT resources? I can think of huge improvements in content and delivery that could be achieved by doing so. Already many students have options to supplement or largely replace their lectures with digital material.
Over many years the lab content of medical courses has been reduced and challenged; my view is that there is great deal more that can be done to distil it to its bare essentials. Only a few years ago it would have been inconceivable to the old guard such as yourself that dissection would play such a small part in our medical education as it does today.
Read ****** Kuhn's seminal work "The structure of scientific revolutions" to better understand the forces at work: especially the concept of the "paradigm shift".
A sustantially distance-learned course is closer than you might imagine. The proposed new Buckingham-Brunel school intends that "The first year will be by distance learning with four blocks of ten days in residence. This will allow students to continue in paid employment, which will reduce the cost of training as a doctor for them." They hope to open in 2008.
By the way, my ideal d-l course would, like the above, include some campus studies (although I think 40 days is excessive). Clinical rotations would continue to be real as opposed to virtual, but greatly enhanced by e-learning resources: the amount of wasted time during rotations can be horrendous.
I am a U.K. citizen studying medicine, but not at a U.K. school. Why do you ask?

maximillian genossa
05-29-2006, 02:31 PM
It was a spinoff from the SC investigations. I know which school you are referring to, because that school also has an e-learning component as well as a satellite campus in the UK. And No, this will bother some pundits here and I don't care if it does, but GMC has NOT withdrawn recognition of online BASIC sciences courses.



Precisely. It was the absence of UHSA, the only one without affiliates, that led me to the conclusion that this was a spin-off from the St. Chris. investigations. I have also heard that an affiliate of one of the other schools has been questioned by a ranking GMC official about issues like- who is responsible for the bulk of the teaching; who sets and marks exams; who is in charge of admissions?
According to my source the GMC has not withdrawn its recognition of online courses.

diogenes
05-29-2006, 03:45 PM
..........this will bother some pundits here and I don't care if it does, but GMC has NOT withdrawn recognition of online BASIC sciences courses.
Too true! I'm still amazed at the passions that are aroused by the mere mention of distance learning in b.med.sci. It's as if someone had suggested legalizing paedophilia.
It's fine to warn folk that online degrees will not enable them to enjoy glittering careers in all 50 U.S. states; or that IUHS is a school worth avoiding for other reasons. But it does annoy me that so many assume that other countries have the same licensing criteria- or should have. It's also sad that many cannot open their minds to the possibilities and are stuck in the "it's always been done this way, and always will be" mindset.

Chemist_11
06-03-2006, 10:46 AM
I have a prelim interview at a medical school in the UK - I will ask about the future of their medical programme, if they are going to lean towards introducing more of an e-learning approach.

Dio, just curious that's all. Now i know you are not studying in the UK, may i ask you if you are looked down on by home students? I know its been asked on here before, but i am curious as to find out the truth.

diogenes
06-03-2006, 11:13 AM
I have a prelim interview at a medical school in the UK - I will ask about the future of their medical programme, if they are going to lean towards introducing more of an e-learning approach.
Dio, just curious that's all. Now i know you are not studying in the UK, may i ask you if you are looked down on by home students? I know its been asked on here before, but i am curious as to find out the truth.
I think the simple answer to your question is yes they do. I have even seen several examples on ValueMD of students at U.K. schools belittling those who go abroad. As a recent post from one such member demonstrated a good deal of the antagonism is about paying for medical education. We are so used to the idea of heavily subsidized state-backed tertiary education that many have a real problem about 'paying for it': as if it's akin to prostitution! Also, because of the high A-level grades needed for med. school here they are used to considering themselves some kind of academic elite. It must be deeply disturbing for some of them to find that it is possible to study medicine by any other route.

Chemist_11
06-03-2006, 02:05 PM
Thanks Dio, i am currently in a situation where i am considdering what to do if i am rejected for med in the UK. Undergrad in the UK, the apply for grad entry (highly competitive) or just go to europe? I know its a different thing from the thread, but perhaps you could give me some info?

Thanks ;)

Chemist_11
06-03-2006, 02:07 PM
May i just add for people who are not 'down' with the UK system, 4 full A levels at grade A will not guarantee you an interview :( - know a couple of people who were rejected with those type of grades.

mind me PM'ing you Dio?

diogenes
06-03-2006, 02:30 PM
No problem, I've just Pm'd you.

Chemist_11
06-03-2006, 02:39 PM
;) - thanks for your time Dio

MrC
07-11-2006, 08:57 PM
I think part of the looking down students on students who go to english language med courses abroad is not so much the fact that students pay for medical education, rather that the foreigh students are brought in as a cash cow for the respective institution and then go back home to practice. Kind of gives the impression that the training is being done on the cheap as a fundraising exercise.

I'm a british med student and I'll admit it, we are a fairly elitist bunch so part of it is if they weren't clever enough to get in should they be a doctor.

Also i know plenty of people with 4 A at A level who have the communication skills of a dead hamster so I'm happy 4 As doesn't guarentee admission or an interview.

Chemist_11
07-13-2006, 08:20 AM
I hope to get offers at 2 UK schools early next year, however A's are not required to succeed in medicine - far from it. The only reason UK schools want to see AAB from 3 A levels is because of the large number of applicants. From an academic viewpoint (confirmed by a guy with a BSc and PhD) medicine isn't as academic as other pure science courses.

Chemist_11
07-13-2006, 08:25 AM
**we are a fairly elitist bunch**

I would just like to say, are you at a good UK school? If not, there is no reason to be as such - some UK schools are not as good as the alternatives.

MrC
07-13-2006, 08:10 PM
I'm a student at Aberdeen, I consider it to be a very good course and university with good facilities and excellent teaching. I'm happy here and I visited 10 medical schools before I applied to check out others and this was one of the better ones.

I was referring generally to medical students, therefore including me, as being elitist (most medical schools have their own campus, own library, different term dates to other students and medics only societies which all kind of breeds a superioity complex) though I would not consider myself particulary elitist.

I appreciate my university is not the best in the world however when considering where to go it is also important to consider perception aswell as reality.

i.e. Czech student goes to charles univeristy = student went to excellent university good employment

2. british student goes to english language prog. at charles university = perception by some not clever enough to get in to UK university, buys place (possibly degree) in 2nd world country - questionable doctor (harsh and untrue for many international programmes I'm sure however we are posting in the IUHS forum and I think that statement 2 would be fair for some "medical schools")

I would also point out that there is more to the AAB/ABB requirement than just numbers, if it was just numbers it would be AAA. Medicine isn't conceptually difficult (I have just finished 2nd year and haven't found anything conceptulaly difficult so far) like most science degrees however the volume of knowledge that needs to be assimilated is huge, which requires lots of work. People with good A level grades are more likely to have good study habits and be self disciplined and consequently better medical students, however I do accept that many people with lower grades would make excellent students and doctors.

Good luck with your UCAS application, where are you applying too?

Chemist_11
07-14-2006, 09:36 AM
Thanks for the reply.

I know many students who have been turned down for med school in the UK with 4 A's at A2 level and a string of A*'s at O level - I have just not too long ago been chatting with a 4th year medical student who admitted:-

1) If there wern't always over 10 applications per seat, then the req's would be lower.

2) Obviously you have to have some academic ability, however a good memory is just as important.

I do think that the idea of students say at charles being less prepared is rubbish (Nothing to do with what you have said, just previous posters), lets look at it;-

1) Students showing dedication to move to a foreign country, learn a new language, part with lots of money.
2) Students studying for 6 years - bound to have more experience than a UK grad? 70% pass mark for exams? in the UK most schools are at what 40% (i know for a fact one of the schools i want to go to is that).
3) UK students going to e.g. charles show an unbelieveable commitment to studying medicine, and work a lot harder than UK students for it i would say.

What do you think?

Tc







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